A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - Amy Schumer & the Plague of White Feminism (with Broey Deschanel)

00:00:00.000 hello hello and welcome back to a bit fruity i'm matt bernstein and if you like the show and would

00:00:07.240 like more of the show or just to support the show you can do that over on patreon i believe by the

00:00:13.320 time this episode is up we'll have a new bonus episode on the fifth year anniversary of the

00:00:19.960 bye sister james charles tati westbrook vitamin supplement homophobia scandal it has been five

00:00:27.040 years, can you believe it? Kat Tenbarge, friend of the show Kat Tenbarge, who is an influencer

00:00:32.060 expert, and I will be doing a five years later unpacking of the events and how it changed

00:00:39.300 the internet forever. Today, we are in for a little bit of a different but equally rich

00:00:45.260 journey. We are going to be talking about Amy Schumer. Amy Schumer is someone who I

00:00:51.300 think everybody has opinions about for better or for worse. Amy Schumer was just featured on the

00:00:57.900 cover of Variety Magazine's Power of Women issue after an extraordinary seven months of highly 0.99

00:01:06.300 controversial posts on social media and one could argue a highly controversial career at large.

00:01:12.780 And so today we are going to take a look at the life and times of Amy Schumer and try to understand

00:01:20.260 what she represents at the intersections of whiteness, of womanhood, of feminism, of

00:01:26.460 entertainment, and all of the things she's come to stand for and represent in the limelight.

00:01:31.820 To do that, I am so, so excited because we are joined by Maia, also known on YouTube

00:01:39.000 as Broye Deschanel, also known in the podcasting world for her show Rehash, which I have spent

00:01:47.080 the last three weeks binging without knowing Maia personally, but after listening to so many hours

00:01:53.760 of her speaking and her just brilliant social commentary, I was like, I need to figure out

00:01:59.640 a way to get her on this show. And I'm so happy she's here. Maia, welcome to A Bit Fruity.

00:02:06.540 Thank you so much for having me. I feel honored to be here. I talk a lot and a lot and a lot

00:02:11.700 about feminism. It's something I studied in school. It's something I've always had an interest in. 1.00

00:02:16.500 thinking about amy schumer especially in context to this like geopolitical um event that's happening

00:02:23.100 i think what's happening with her right now and especially with what happened with variety

00:02:26.960 definitely comes at the intersection of a lot of things well let's dive right in so what is

00:02:31.700 your cultural understanding of amy schumer where did she enter your life amy schumer entered my 0.98

00:02:37.400 life actually quite early on in her like actually a bit before she blew up in the mainstream i would

00:02:43.340 say um i first came to know of her through i'm so embarrassed to admit this but i came to know

00:02:50.220 about her through the roast of charlie sheen oh i used to watch the comedy central roast with my

00:02:56.740 mom uh i would have been in like grade 10 at this point but um she was on the the roast of charlie

00:03:02.200 sheen and i remember finding her extremely funny honestly like i actually noted her down as someone

00:03:08.340 who to look out for because i thought that she was really really good i actually re-watched that uh

00:03:12.900 roast just in preparation for this and i do think it still holds up obviously some of the jokes are

00:03:18.500 astonishingly out of pocket she roasts patrice o'neill for being diabetic and he actually passed

00:03:24.280 away that year um so just things that maybe haven't have definitely not aged well in or out

00:03:30.540 of her control but i did find her quite funny and then ever since she's kind of been this cultural

00:03:35.260 figure who i've had a complicated relationship with she's someone who like i i think i hold a

00:03:40.380 lot of nuance for in a similar way to Lena Dunham where I do think a lot of the criticisms of them

00:03:45.640 are extremely valid but a lot of them also stem from this place of like sheer misogyny as well

00:03:51.160 especially because very similar to Lena Dunham like she doesn't Amy Schumer doesn't really 0.97

00:03:55.500 adhere to certain beauty standards or certain forms of like feminine etiquette and that really

00:04:00.760 tends to rub people the wrong way especially men so so I've always tried to kind of hold the

00:04:06.500 criticisms of her with a grain of salt because I don't know I never you never know where they're

00:04:10.040 coming from that is obviously until recently and i think one of the hallmarks of amy schumer's

00:04:15.320 relationship to the public in a way that we're going to get to later in this episode is this

00:04:21.140 like what is valid criticism what is misogyny and fat phobia and also where does she blur the

00:04:28.480 lines between those two in a way that's convenient for her to like dodge actual criticism i think i

00:04:34.680 think that's exactly what's going on i think she which we'll talk about but i think that she

00:04:38.660 definitely weaponizes that or i don't even know if it's an intentional weaponization but it's like 0.96

00:04:42.800 a knee-jerk inclination and a knee-jerk uh defensive response regardless of what the

00:04:49.100 criticism coming her way is okay we're getting ahead of ourselves amy schumer amy schumer was 0.83

00:04:56.200 born on the upper east side of new york city into a wealthy family her parents owned a furniture

00:05:04.580 company and for the first nine or so years of her life she lived in manhattan wealth uh the

00:05:11.200 furniture company though ended up going bankrupt her parents got divorced again this is around the

00:05:15.640 time she's like nine or ten years old and she moves to long island with her mother amy schumer

00:05:21.780 is famously second cousins with the senate majority leader chuck schumer who as many 0.84

00:05:29.240 nepo babies are she's very strident in her like i'm not a nepo baby like my relationship to chuck 0.83

00:05:36.880 schumer has nothing to do with my successful career in entertainment and for all i know that 0.98

00:05:41.980 could be entirely true like i don't know what chuck schumer can do for her as a second cousin 1.00

00:05:46.520 high-ranking politician yeah it's it's hard to know i think with nepo babies there's there's kind 0.57

00:05:51.740 of like two types of nepo babies there's the one that's like the child of two a-listers who are 0.98

00:05:56.520 who was always destined to kind of fall into the path the same path as their parents and 0.98

00:06:01.080 was a celebrity since they were a baby and then there's the type that's someone who got their foot

00:06:05.700 in the door by way of their own kind of like privilege by way of their own wealth i would

00:06:10.220 assume like maybe chuck schumer didn't help amy in terms of like the comedy circuit and going to

00:06:14.900 gigs because i think i think comedy is pretty it's pretty difficult to enter as a nepo baby i

00:06:19.740 think it's something that you do have to kind of work your way up through but i'm sure her her

00:06:23.960 connections or her her wealth growing up helped in some way yeah i mean it can never really hurt

00:06:29.920 amy schumer after going to college she starts gaining some popularity in her early tv career

00:06:35.760 with various gigs on comedy central this is like during the late 2000s she was interestingly

00:06:43.020 a recurring guest on greg gutfeld's like fox news show at the time which i think is like i'm not

00:06:50.720 going to be like she was a right winger the whole time but i think is like kind of accidental

00:06:56.540 foreshadowing a little bit unfortunate she gets her big mainstream breakthrough in 2015 with her

00:07:02.800 movie train wreck with bill hater since then she's had you know a whole lot of career success

00:07:07.500 she's had multiple televised comedy specials on hbo and netflix this is actually where amy schumer

00:07:14.220 comes into my life i think i became aware of her once she was already very famous i was on an

00:07:19.500 airplane and i think her first netflix special was like on like the free like things you could

00:07:24.900 watch and so i was watching it and i was like laughing to the point of crying in my seat i'm

00:07:30.340 not here to be like i disagree with this person now on politics and so i'm gonna say like i never

00:07:35.260 thought they were funny my personal opinion amy schumer has been funny she was making a lot of

00:07:40.980 like jokes about diet culture which felt in the 2010s to be pretty subversive would you say yeah

00:07:48.540 Yeah, I think a lot of her comedy was quite subversive for the time.

00:07:51.520 She made a lot of jokes about, you know, casual sex as well.

00:07:55.180 And so like on top of jokes about diet culture, you know, she kind of was a member of the

00:08:00.680 like sex positivity movement and kind of championed that a bit.

00:08:05.280 Obviously, sometimes it gets a little tired with her.

00:08:08.640 But yeah, I think she was ahead of her time in certain ways, for sure.

00:08:12.600 I feel like the hallmarks of Amy Schumer's comedy, it's like sex, it's feminism, it's

00:08:17.680 fatness and like body empowerment integral to the brand of amy schumer has always been this like

00:08:25.020 liberal irreverence which again like at the time especially for a woman in comedy was kind of 0.99

00:08:32.520 groundbreaking totally yeah and i think she was also she would often kind of play this role of 1.00

00:08:37.500 like an ignorant person that had a veneer of like self-awareness to a degree like and that's why

00:08:43.760 it's been kind of hard to tell and like go back and look at jokes that are ranging from off color 0.90

00:08:48.860 to like outwardly offensive and and know which of them are coming from this like role that she

00:08:53.160 was putting on and which of them are coming from her the double-edged sword to when your image is

00:08:58.480 this like progressive person is that people hold you to that and when you behave in a way unbecoming

00:09:06.620 of that image i think it sticks out like a sore thumb and when she's kind of continued to bring

00:09:12.180 these like off color jokes into her routines because yeah she has kind of positioned herself 0.51

00:09:17.460 as a champion of feminism and a champion of women's rights um but then she'll kind of like 1.00

00:09:21.740 make fun of like latinas for no reason at all and in a award ceremony speech and so this image that

00:09:27.840 she gives of herself as a champion of women has been called into question a number of times

00:09:32.680 throughout her career especially with her punching down at racial minorities and then really went

00:09:37.920 south earlier, I guess, late last year and into this year with her what has become pretty prolific

00:09:45.140 commentary about Israel and Palestine. So Amy Schumer is a Jewish woman, like anyone, you know,

00:09:52.360 in Jewish communities or Muslim communities, but really anyone. Amy Schumer has had a lot to say

00:09:57.640 about what is happening right now in Israel, Palestine. Maya, did you witness any of the

00:10:03.740 instagram spiral that happened over on at amy schumer unfortunately i did okay um it was

00:10:10.800 astonishing to behold as were most of the things that were happening online in october but uh i

00:10:17.400 don't know it never ceases to amaze me like the lack of empathy i feel like what amy schumer had

00:10:21.500 to say about israel became like a genre of news in and of itself it's like there was what was

00:10:28.060 actually happening in israel and palestine and then there was what amy schumer was saying about

00:10:33.480 what was happening in Israel and Palestine. And so there is really a rich body of work from this

00:10:38.200 era of Amy Schumer's social media presence. I have curated some selected works for us to

00:10:47.160 analyze together. I think they kind of offer a window into the worldview of not only Amy Schumer,

00:10:54.440 but the specific brand of feminism and liberalism that Amy Schumer represents that I think

00:11:00.960 a lot of people subscribe to and i would like to start by sending you one of these posts maia

00:11:08.260 and having you describe to me what you see i'm scared you should be so in this one she shared a

00:11:16.600 post from an account called living jewishly and it's like a brick wall with a black star over it

00:11:23.280 and in the star is this text and the text reads oh saying this out loud is gonna be tough yeah

00:11:29.920 strap strap strap in everybody first they came for lgbtq and i stood up because love is love

00:11:36.820 then they came for immigrants and i stood up because families belong together then they came

00:11:43.480 for the black community and i stood up because black lives matter then they came for me but i

00:11:50.660 stood alone because i am a jew oh where do we begin it's in basically like a reversed version

00:12:00.560 of an extremely famous poem from world war ii called first they came yeah i think most people

00:12:07.240 have probably heard this but the poem that this is lifted from but wildly twisted from it's from

00:12:13.660 1946, post-World War II, and it is by a German pastor who was writing about the Nazis' rise to

00:12:21.220 power. And he wrote, first they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, because I

00:12:26.540 was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was

00:12:31.480 not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew. 0.91

00:12:37.340 Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me.

00:12:40.460 It's essentially about the ways that fascism and social prejudice can take a hold, and the ways that it can escalate if the public is apathetic, essentially, to the suffering of others, to the oppression of others.

00:12:56.680 It's about complicity. It's a devastating poem. It's an apt one. And Amy Schumer's post essentially completely bastardizes the sentiment behind it.

00:13:07.720 The way that Amy Schumer has flipped this, Amy Schumer didn't write this poem, she's published it as if to co-sign it. And the way that she's written is like, well, they came for everybody else and I stood for everyone. And it completely inverses the meaning of this original poem to make it about your own self-victimization.

00:13:28.860 And the funniest part is that like it could easily actually be applied more adequately to the plight of Palestinian people and the apathy that the world has essentially shown them in their suffering for the past seven or more decades.

00:13:43.520 i love the way that it's written because it's just like all of the liberal sloganeering like

00:13:47.800 you know the you know the the memes about like the yard i mean they're not even

00:13:51.960 memes like they're actual yard signs that people will have up like well-intentioned liberals will

00:13:57.020 have in front of their yards that are like in this house we believe love is love black lives 0.96

00:14:02.340 matter science is real it's like that science is real science is real like like brown people 0.68

00:14:11.180 are human beings like it's like the craziest liberal sloganeering but it's like i then they

00:14:18.540 came for the black community and i stood up because black lives matter people were very angry

00:14:23.100 about amy schumer posting this for reasons which i think are understandable a lot of people

00:14:30.340 belonging to the minority groups listed in this poem queer people immigrants and particularly

00:14:37.060 black people were basically just like what what have you done for black lives matter amy schumer

00:14:43.720 like what what have you done for black people like what does this actually mean yeah and it's

00:14:48.540 also like not only yeah positioning herself as some sort of like martyr but also asking people

00:14:55.320 to essentially equating her so-called solidarity with let's say like black lives matter for example

00:15:00.740 with someone essentially agreeing with her zionist views to like indiscriminately bomb

00:15:06.500 an entire population of people and it's like one of those is not the same what do you think it

00:15:13.900 represents about how amy schumer views solidarity with other marginalized groups i think it comes

00:15:20.120 across extremely transactional like a bit tit for tat i'll only performatively associate with you

00:15:27.180 and your movement and i'll only perform my allyship so long as i know that i'm gonna get the

00:15:32.660 same thing in return and you know a lot of the time when you do stand for marginalized communities

00:15:37.220 it's it's supposed to be um it's supposed to be unconditional and it's supposed to be standing up

00:15:42.000 for those who who don't who don't have the resources that you do it makes it very clear

00:15:46.500 that her allegiances are conditional um and that she's she's doing it for that reason which is not

00:15:52.180 solidarity i'm still stuck on like what amy schumer has done for black people but i don't know

00:15:57.600 I would like to show you another Instagram post. So this is one where people were like really

00:16:06.220 starting to take note of Amy Schumer's increasingly wild Instagram presence during this like October,

00:16:13.300 November period. But this was the one that, well, actually the previous one I saw and my jaw dropped,

00:16:20.260 but like this one even more so i was at an art museum and i like sat down in the little cafe in

00:16:28.120 the lobby afterwards and i opened my phone and amy schumer had posted this and i like my jaw was on

00:16:37.360 the floor and i think this was the post that most people reference now when they're talking about

00:16:43.860 like the amy schumer controversy everyone brace yourself oh yeah all right so oh god if someone

00:16:51.060 were to take a soundbite out of this and decontextualize it i would look very bad very bad

00:16:56.540 what we're seeing in this image is essentially a cartoon of a group of people many of whom are

00:17:02.940 white holding up protest signs they're standing in like a city street and the signs say things like

00:17:09.760 beheading is resistance stabbing parents in front of children is legal throwing grenades at kids 0.99

00:17:17.120 hiding in closets is not terrorism burn babies burn proud of our rapist martyrs and then the 1.00

00:17:24.580 front sign the biggest one says gauzens rape jewish girls only in self-defense which is crazy 0.99

00:17:32.200 and then the caption says yeah yeah totally ceasefire but mind if we get the babies back 0.98

00:17:37.920 can y'all give that a shout too and also try not to kill all the jews again thanks have the best

00:17:43.760 friday insane insane there is once again so much here i actually think though that the caption is 0.68

00:17:50.500 one of the most revealing parts because i'm just i'm gonna read it again yeah yeah totally cease

00:17:56.320 fire but mind if we get the babies back can y'all give that a shout too and also not try to kill all 0.54

00:18:01.820 the jews again thanks have the best friday with no punctuation between thanks and have the best 0.62

00:18:06.560 friday like i think that that is the kind of revealing of amy schumer's like mental state

00:18:11.880 at this point like she's just typing there's erratic there's erratic there's never like

00:18:15.960 thought there's never stop and pause there's never go back and revise there's just post post post

00:18:21.700 yeah this is like meant to be a satirical illustration of a pro-palestinian protest

00:18:27.680 and this was on the main grid like this was on amy schumer's main feed this is not an instagram

00:18:33.060 story she saw this one and she was like this is gonna she posted on maine i think for days about

00:18:39.220 what i post on maine weeks even and she just she just went ahead and put this right on maine

00:18:43.740 what stands out to you about this post immediately two things i think yeah yeah totally cease fire is 0.92

00:18:51.000 is um an incredibly flippant way to address the situation the other is gauzens rape jewish girls 0.85

00:18:59.000 only in self-defense yeah to say gauzans rape jewish girls whereas like the the picture the 0.86

00:19:04.800 shirt right behind says i love hamas but then to to equate hamas with gauzans is incomprehensible 0.97

00:19:11.880 it's uh unconscionable yeah and to say that they rape jewish girls only in self-defense 0.83

00:19:17.500 is just not even taking into consideration what the idf has been doing to palestinian 0.90

00:19:23.380 women uh in the complete inverse and for decades is is just like truly insane i just think it's 0.61

00:19:31.120 like this this insane lack of empathy and bigotry of course like just blatant islamophobia blatant

00:19:37.940 racism the thing that made a lot of noise about this post was that the most prominent protester 0.99

00:19:43.720 in this drawing at the front is the one holding the sign that said gazans rape jewish girls only 0.93

00:19:49.540 self-defense. It's that replacing of Hamas with Gazans, right? Like it's, it's no longer about 0.87

00:19:56.420 Hamas. It's about Palestinians living in Gaza, which is just, it's so disgusting. It's so 1.00

00:20:02.180 Islamophobic. She would end up deleting this. She ended up deleting like a lot of the ones she got

00:20:06.720 criticized most for, but never really meaningfully retracting anything. There was another Instagram

00:20:13.700 post and this was crazy it was a headline and it said ivy league among top recipients of eight and

00:20:22.940 a half billion dollar arab funding and so she's making a claim that like colleges receive funding

00:20:32.600 from arab people and like that's why young college students are against the genocide in palestine

00:20:37.980 this one it's just like we went from hamas to gazans to arabs it's just so incredibly like

00:20:46.680 so racist and like far right yeah when it descends into like uh invoking the word arab

00:20:53.020 it's just like barely concealed at that point like the the disdain and the racism um it's it's

00:20:59.140 barely concealed yeah i actually didn't see this one when it came out and oh yeah this one got this

00:21:03.840 one got deleted another we're gonna we're gonna move on for the instagram post i promise i told

00:21:09.880 you there's a rich body of work i'm sorry but another one from this period of time during this

00:21:15.980 time instagram as you may have heard uh introduces a feature that they turn on by default that limits

00:21:23.140 what quote-unquote political content is shown to you on your explore page they're obviously doing

00:21:29.960 that because like adam oseri and the instagram people want to be more friendly to advertisers 0.97

00:21:34.940 and people are increasingly talking about politics all the time that was just a fucking crazy decision 0.88

00:21:39.800 because what is considered political right like are cis bodies political or are trans bodies 0.94

00:21:45.400 political are white people political or black people like it's just i'm really interested to

00:21:50.800 know like who's writing these algorithms and what they consider political um i know as a political

00:21:56.840 content creator what of my content has gotten limited in how they push it out and what hasn't

00:22:02.080 and i can tell you whenever i talk about palestine it is severely limited in the algorithm i made a

00:22:08.260 post as i do where i was making people aware of that they should be turning this limit political

00:22:14.260 content thing off and where does it end up on amy schumer's instagram story again with her just not

00:22:21.060 thinking before she posts like just look into it a little bit further babe well so the amazing thing

00:22:26.520 about first of all for me to end up on amy schumer's instagram story of course i was gobsmacked

00:22:30.640 but i included in the background of this of this post that i made to make people aware of this

00:22:36.220 feature i included a picture of uh a bomb being dropped on gaza which amy schumer clearly doesn't

00:22:42.640 realize that that's what's on the post well it's so similar to what um i think it was like jamie

00:22:48.100 lee curtis and i think i think maybe justin bieber yeah we're posting uh after october 7th they were

00:22:53.600 posting all these images of gaza and being like look at what they're doing to israel and it's

00:22:58.920 just like oh man yeah and then people were like that's not israel that's gaza and then they deleted 0.62

00:23:03.960 it then they deleted it i'm like i wonder if that changed your views at all it was it was so bad

00:23:08.880 when the white children are dying but then i learned that it was actually brown children that

00:23:12.820 were dying and suddenly i don't know i think i just need to carry on with my day suddenly it

00:23:17.780 just didn't seem to affect me anymore and i don't know why that is amy schumer posts a video of

00:23:23.620 martin luther king talking about israel and antisemitism and bernice king martin luther

00:23:30.400 king's daughter was not having it at all and so i am going to send you her response to read

00:23:37.780 so bernice king said in a thread amy certainly my father was against antisemitism as am i he also

00:23:46.520 believed militarism along with racism and poverty to be among the interconnected triple evils i am

00:23:52.660 certain he would call for israel's bombing of palestinians to cease for hostages to be released

00:23:57.940 and for us to work for true peace which includes justice he said justice at its best is love

00:24:04.680 correcting everything that stands against love we have so much to correct white people love to use

00:24:11.880 martin luther king as their kind of like perfect black you know uh voice and they love to do it

00:24:19.960 they're like well he was against violence and he was against uh whatever he was against violent

00:24:25.400 protest he was non-violent and so they kind of use that as like a reason to chastise people

00:24:31.120 whenever they speak up um whenever they protest whenever they whenever anything ever happens

00:24:35.980 essentially and they always do it incorrectly and they they love to make him kind of like the one

00:24:40.980 civil rights advocate as if there weren't so many other people around that exact era doing similar

00:24:46.880 things um conveniently they love to not think about malcolm x and his values or teachings because it

00:24:52.020 just doesn't align with their own it's very interesting how white people will cherry pick

00:24:58.540 the kind of like civil rights heroes who make them feel good about the things that they already

00:25:03.540 believe and they love to kind of bastardize his his concept of civil disobedience as a way to

00:25:09.080 like we're seeing it right now with the protests at columbia and all these other universities like

00:25:12.780 people saying that they're they're getting they're becoming too much essentially and

00:25:17.140 being really confused about like the disruptive power of protests and i think martin luther king

00:25:23.160 often becomes kind of like the symbol for that in a way that i think is just so unfair to his

00:25:27.500 legacy and unfair to what he what he really stood for and i think this is a great case like he of

00:25:32.300 course he was against anti-semitism but why would you ever think he'd promote a genocide right yeah

00:25:38.560 and and amy schumer ignores bernice king's response i think we can accept that as like

00:25:44.760 her version of defeat like she had what can you say against that what are you gonna you're gonna

00:25:49.340 argue with martin luther king jr's daughter yeah amy schumer silenced at last thank you

00:25:56.820 i mean if it took martin luther king jr's daughter to silence her wow that's incredible

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00:27:19.360 out, feel free to go to rocketmoney.com slash fruity. That's rocketmoney.com slash fruity.

00:27:26.740 Now let's get back to the show. 1.00

00:27:30.160 Amy Schumer got into another row with another Black woman. 0.97

00:27:35.000 Someone named Asia Jackson on Twitter was writing about, you know, the double standards for what people are allowed to say in defense of Palestine versus in defense of Israel.

00:27:45.380 And to the tune of 162,000 likes currently, she wrote,

00:27:49.960 it's so crazy to me how Bella and Gigi Hadid who are Palestinian supermodels had to tiptoe around 0.53

00:27:56.440 their statements and then Amy Schumer is like Gazans are rapists and will still have a career

00:28:02.320 and so Amy Schumer really didn't like that Asia Jackson said this and dm'd her on Instagram she 0.90

00:28:11.280 she wrote in a series of texts to Asia which Asia published on Twitter Amy wrote did something I

00:28:18.740 post about my people being massacred upset you? Asia responds, the Islamophobia and generalization

00:28:24.840 of Gazan people did. And then Amy writes, really sorry about that. Eventually, and so she's like

00:28:31.680 going viral every single day, you know, six months ago. And eventually, she comes forward with a

00:28:39.700 statement. And here is where we are going to pick up. So I am going to send you that statement,

00:28:45.520 and we'll read it so she wrote in a notes app notes uh she said classic uh she said 0.88

00:28:54.000 couple things what i want is every hostage back all in caps i want safety and freedom from hamas

00:29:00.860 for palestinians and israelis i want safety for jewish people and muslims as well everyone just

00:29:07.120 like you i want peace you will never see me wishing harm on anyone saying i'm islamophobic

00:29:12.140 or that I like genocide is crazy. So here you go by popular demand. Comments on. Please keep the

00:29:17.620 below in mind. When you say I'm rich, please add in self-made. I come from being dirt poor.

00:29:24.500 Senator Chuck Schumer is my dad's second cousin once removed. I didn't meet him till I was 25.

00:29:29.720 I have never been given any money to support a cause other than tampons. I've never stolen a

00:29:34.020 joke. People call me a failed comic. I'm the most successful female comedian of all time.

00:29:38.480 i'm ugly slash fat okay sorry you aren't attracted to me i found someone who is i hope you find

00:29:44.560 someone too we are all in a lot of pain what hurts the most is that we all actually love each other 0.97

00:29:49.780 you hate jews you don't know why i still love you uh it's just difficult because like baked into

00:29:57.260 that are some some truths you know like you know she is an exciting she is a very successful female 0.98

00:30:02.100 comedian it's not nice that people keep calling her ugly and fat as a reason to uh critique her

00:30:07.640 She maybe probably didn't know Chuck Schumer until she was 25. And that's okay. You know, I think that I what I find frustrating about a lot of critiques online is that people tend to kind of deviate from the subject at hand. And it just undermines the point. Sure, there are some truths in there, but then they're couched within a whole bunch of troubling things. 0.78

00:30:27.660 I think I was just reading this and it's like, how have you made the entire thing about yourself?

00:30:34.580 Yes.

00:30:35.280 And to be clear, like the way that a lot of people talk about Amy Schumer is directly related to how she looks and is about her weight and is about her face.

00:30:46.200 And like, I think that's wrong. 1.00

00:30:47.920 And I think it's stupid. 0.98

00:30:48.760 And I think if you have a critique of someone, you should be able to make it without commenting on how they look. 0.99

00:30:55.000 but so much of the critique about amy schumer has nothing to do with how she looks especially

00:31:00.020 amidst everything we were just talking about and then to just go and do that like well you hate me 0.97

00:31:05.560 because i'm ugly but whatever fuck the haters it's like amy part of me yes does understand why 0.98

00:31:11.420 she's so quick every time to jump into like people hate women defense um in that variety article which 1.00

00:31:16.780 i know we'll get into she says like you know they say they have they save a special kind of vitriol

00:31:21.580 for us it's not new i think it's because they fear women but that being said like couching

00:31:26.920 that within these kind of like zionist talking points that are so devoid of empathy amy's 0.99

00:31:31.820 behavior in this is this like really unfortunate confluence of white feminism and zionism like 0.86

00:31:38.000 such a big hallmark of white feminism is this whole idea of like white women's tears right 1.00

00:31:42.260 and i think amy weaponizing her womanhood to like absolve herself of everything she says and does 0.99

00:31:49.480 is just such a facet of that and I think that's exactly what she's doing in this

00:31:53.840 I guess you could call it a notes app apology I don't know if we could even characterize it as an

00:31:59.240 apology but a statement I think people are coming to this podcast from varying levels of like having 1.00

00:32:06.020 been involved in feminist discourse could you explain a little bit about what white feminism

00:32:11.480 is and like what the tenets of it are yeah white feminism and this is something I do like I actually 1.00

00:32:16.500 like to talk about recently because i think recently it gets conflated with like white 1.00

00:32:20.460 women who are feminists and they're not the same thing like there are many white women who are 0.96

00:32:25.480 obviously vocal against what's happening in gaza and and the west bank and um like susan sarandon 0.99

00:32:32.080 got dropped by uta um billy eilish has spoken out boy genius like all these people white feminism

00:32:38.220 is like a brand of feminism that is essentially exclusive to white cis women and i think one of

00:32:45.980 the tenets of it is that it really centers the self and like the individual as like the most

00:32:51.700 important part of women's rights essentially and so you kind of see that within these like more

00:32:58.780 defensive these defensive positions that amy schumer takes on um or in her comedy right like 0.97

00:33:04.560 she she like we were saying she has made quite a bit quite a lot of leaps in terms of what she's

00:33:09.620 doing for white women in comedy but then she simultaneously will have these routines that are 1.00

00:33:14.680 at the expense of marginalized people marginalized women i think she is like probably the poster 1.00

00:33:20.860 child for white feminism um and it's it's what she's doing here in this instance as well should 0.98

00:33:26.180 we talk about the variety article but the variety article was kind of my impetus for wanting to make 0.99

00:33:32.260 this episode because like amy schumer was one of a number of celebrities that had like sort of wild 0.91

00:33:38.260 social media outbursts over the last year but then for her to be given this crown of like 0.99

00:33:46.080 variety magazines power woman and given this magazine cover that was the thing that like 0.54

00:33:52.420 kind of sent me over the edge a little bit because I have watched as so many people

00:33:58.840 in the entertainment space have tried to like toe this tightrope of trying to stand up for

00:34:05.780 what they believe in without the very real risk of professional consequences. And we've seen people

00:34:11.820 face the wrath of those professional consequences. Like you said, Susan Sarandon. I mean, there's

00:34:16.800 been a whole bunch of people who have faced consequences for speaking out. Melissa Barrera,

00:34:21.420 the young actress who was fired from Scream 7 for advocating for Palestinians. And then for Amy 1.00

00:34:27.900 Schumer to be able to post these heinous things about Gazan's only rape and self-defense. And 0.98

00:34:35.060 i stood up for black people so where are the black people standing up for me and like just 0.99

00:34:40.520 these fucking crazy things and then for her to like delete half of it ignore the rest move on 0.99

00:34:48.160 which look from a social like as someone who's been prolific online a little bit like 0.99

00:34:52.880 i understand posting through it i'm with you amy i get it sometimes we flop and we have to post

00:34:58.100 through it i'm giving you empathy where i can but to be rewarded with like power woman of the year

00:35:04.660 magazine cover is like kind of where i started to lose my marbles a little bit i just think

00:35:11.900 generally these awards are so bizarre yeah like handing them to the celebrities for just like

00:35:17.020 doing their jobs i don't know what is the purpose behind these i think like what initially stuck out

00:35:23.900 to me and like my immediate thought was like the instance of variety choosing to award amy schumer

00:35:28.440 who hasn't really done anything super noteworthy this past year just felt like a really blatant

00:35:34.480 move on the part of the publication to like really let us know where they stand yeah um

00:35:39.460 to me it was like extremely symbolic of variety's beliefs um after october 7th variety did a summit

00:35:46.700 on anti-semitism which had been planned like in the months prior to october 7th but like during

00:35:52.280 the summit it actually kind of turned into more of a discussion about um israel palestine and

00:35:58.380 during the summit the magazine apparently expressed that it stood in solidarity with

00:36:03.020 israel and then it also published like 28 articles about anti-semitism in hollywood

00:36:07.540 which of course it has within its right to do it was just like the timing of it was a little

00:36:11.780 interesting and you know some of the articles like one of them was by noah tishby who's like this

00:36:17.420 super um super zionist let's say yeah she's kind of the zionist spokeswoman yeah exactly and her

00:36:24.820 the article's called anti-zionism is anti-semitism and that was published by variety so that's her

00:36:30.900 slogan yeah exactly and so it felt like this was them kind of like digging their feet in the ground

00:36:36.160 and just like at the heart of the piece is just it's just bad journalism it's bad faith journalism

00:36:42.000 it felt like rage bait in a way and if it's if it's rage bait then it did work i mean people

00:36:47.160 were livid on all of the social media platforms including myself i'm so sorry i sometimes look

00:36:54.160 i'm not i'm not immune to being baited variety if you want to bait me then you know you've

00:37:00.500 pulled my trigger i guess i want to send you the cover like the cover of the magazine and i want

00:37:07.940 you to describe it and i want you to tell me what you think about it so here we have a backdrop it's

00:37:13.700 just like a beige backdrop is that beige grayish grayish we have a grayish backdrop uh it's very

00:37:20.060 simple it has the variety logo in black font it has power of women beside it and then we have amy 1.00

00:37:25.940 schumer standing with a rosie the riveter kind of like arm like this yeah she's like flex flexing 1.00

00:37:32.680 her bicep she's flexing her biceps she's she's giving us her empowerment fist i guess uh and 1.00

00:37:39.740 she's wearing a black dress and in text over her it says amy schumer back at the mic i had 1.00

00:37:48.660 kind of a strong reaction to the way that they posed her doing this like rosie the riveter thing 0.57

00:37:54.100 because it is it's the power of women issue it's the like poster child of all

00:38:00.300 feminist poses you know and i think in the context of like you said i mean the thing that

00:38:06.200 she's been known for over the past year more than anything else more than her like work and comedy

00:38:11.120 or art or anything is her kind of callousness towards the death of palestinians there's something 1.00

00:38:17.640 so like first world about celebrating this woman for all of her hurt the adversity she's faced

00:38:25.360 while women in Gaza are being bombed in their beds.

00:38:29.400 And it's just like, it's just so distasteful.

00:38:32.900 And I think insulting in every single way.

00:38:35.160 And I think that's exactly what they were going for.

00:38:36.920 Like, I'm not going to absolve them at all.

00:38:38.180 I think that they wanted to insult us.

00:38:40.500 I've pulled out some excerpts from this Variety article.

00:38:43.120 It's fascinating how sympathetic the author is towards her.

00:38:49.440 But then again, it's fascinating how sympathetic

00:38:51.800 this entire publication is towards her.

00:38:53.640 so here is the first quote this is actually the opening of the article amy schumer was in the 0.92

00:39:00.540 zone i need to not read it like sounding like an asshole matthew be nice be nice all right 0.56

00:39:08.220 amy schumer was in the zone this was in march when she was filming on the street in brooklyn 0.98

00:39:13.160 for her upcoming movie kind of pregnant a comedy about a woman who pretends to be knocked up for

00:39:18.120 attention in one take schumer emerged from a subway station while answering a phone call 1.00

00:39:23.420 and was interrupted by a stranger shouting at her from the sidewalk fuck you amy schumer you're a 1.00

00:39:29.820 zionist you love genocide disruptions of the four-letter variety meaning fuck 1.00

00:39:35.560 describing fuck you as disruptions of the four-letter variety is like 1.00

00:39:41.580 just because it's i guess it's a writing flair uh journalism that's all i'll say 0.99

00:39:47.700 disruptions of the four-letter variety aren't unusual in a reckless place like new york

00:39:52.780 though they're usually less pointed schumer didn't break character refusing to stop working

00:39:58.760 as the woman carried on the actress finished the scene finally packed up her stuff and went home

00:40:05.060 to her husband and their four-year-old son it didn't even raise my heart rate schumer says

00:40:09.860 over brunch at a cozy brooklyn heights tavern a couple days later i didn't cry nothing all right

00:40:16.760 my uh initial thoughts i just think ruben like rebecca rubin who wrote the article her main

00:40:22.520 fallback in it is to kind of point to all of amy schumer's like accomplishments and how how much

00:40:29.040 she's able to brush things off in this like material way and like i think i think this is

00:40:33.660 just one of those examples like she refused to even stop working even when she got berated on

00:40:38.680 the street like she continued to work i don't know it's just it's just funny to kind of paint

00:40:43.520 her as this like resilient yeah person it's like oh poor amy like it's just it's trying to score

00:40:50.100 her sympathy points in a way that i think is just so lame like oh poor amy you said something racist

00:40:55.720 on the internet yeah exactly exactly like someone yelled at you on the street for like saying a 0.97

00:41:00.900 bunch of racist shit online well and it's using to your point it's using this language that i

00:41:05.320 think we usually apply to like working class women this like she had no choice but to keep 0.99

00:41:11.780 working and she carried on before going home to her husband and her young child it's giving she's 1.00

00:41:17.340 a single mom who works two jobs it's literally she's a single job she's a single mom who works

00:41:23.140 two jobs it's that amy schumer struggling single mother it's like she has no choice but to keep up

00:41:30.560 the work and like brush off the haters and it's like we're describing an a-list working hollywood 0.99

00:41:36.320 actress who has like tens of millions of dollars oh my god yeah totally and and is like the the 0.52

00:41:42.760 disruption in question that she can't let like get in the way of her work is again like her being

00:41:47.740 called out for a bunch of like heinous racist shit online i don't know this isn't really like 0.86

00:41:52.700 the plight of women this is the plight of amy schumer it's really playing into that kind of 0.98

00:41:57.520 like whole capitalism individualism thing we were talking about where it's like painting amy schumer

00:42:03.100 and she kind of does this in her notes app statement apology where she's like you know i

00:42:07.120 was dirt poor like this article is really kind of positioning her simultaneously as like the

00:42:11.940 scrappy underdog and then also as this like extremely successful woman and it's like 0.99

00:42:16.180 you can't have both right pick a lane something that i think a lot about is the drama triangle

00:42:24.120 do you know what the drama triangle is no please inform me so the drama triangle is this like

00:42:29.880 philosophical idea from the 60s that everyone in any situation is always playing one of three roles

00:42:37.860 this is also a big theme in like christianity where the three roles are the rescuer the persecutor

00:42:45.880 or the victim and there's no like blending of these like i think something that is a hallmark

00:42:52.340 of the drama triangle is the lack of nuance and so you're always either in any situation a victim

00:42:57.360 a persecutor or a rescuer like who's who's saving the victim and so i think like the way that amy

00:43:03.700 schumer sees herself and also the way that she's being portrayed in this article really leans into

00:43:08.960 this idea of the drama triangle where like amy schumer is always overcoming something it's it's

00:43:15.120 like a it's a persecution complex no totally i think the reason that this kind of like you know

00:43:19.820 okay so i think the article like i was saying it kind of falls back on this like amy schumer so

00:43:24.080 accomplish all of her material accomplishments they go into like how none of her views have 0.98

00:43:28.780 hindered her ability to get jobs which is like conveniently not interrogated any further in the 0.99

00:43:33.700 article like yeah good question why is amy schumer continuing to find work yeah pretty obvious answer

00:43:39.040 like she belongs to an industry that sides with israel and so people who call for ceasefire are

00:43:43.960 the ones who are actually being you know losing their jobs it mentions how she got a role in the

00:43:48.600 new jerry seinfeld movie which is like conveniently forgets to mention that jerry seinfeld is a

00:43:53.280 notorious zionist like you know all of this could be said but it isn't and i just think the reason

00:43:58.380 that this this kind of like accomplishment based um line of argument is such a centerpiece in the

00:44:03.960 article is just because like i think neoliberal or like girl boss feminism places its attention

00:44:09.300 on this idea of like woman as survivor there's this like really great quote from martin fradley

00:44:15.380 that i i picked out when i was doing some research on this um where he says it's this he wrote this

00:44:20.380 chapter about like um girl boss feminism essentially and he said the idealized 21st

00:44:25.880 century female subject a confident endlessly resilient agent of her own destiny illustrates

00:44:31.840 how post-feminism has become in effect the gendered version of neoliberalism and i just think that's so

00:44:37.480 apt here like the defense of any successful woman these days is to be like you know she has all these

00:44:43.000 haters and yet here she is still standing here she is with all her businesses and like the way that

00:44:48.380 she's still standing is like oh she has no friends left but at least she has this empire yeah so i

00:44:53.620 think i think that positioning yourself as the victim is kind of like a part of that something

00:44:58.240 that was really funny that came out as a consequence of this article was so it talks about

00:45:03.660 how the guy came out of the subway shouting at her about how she's a scientist and some guy on

00:45:11.260 twitter twitter user at young chomsky screenshotted that part of the article and wrote that was me

00:45:18.080 which if i laugh too hard my bronchitis is still going to trigger me coughing but

00:45:23.760 i really did laugh at that i love that and i love that his name is young chomsky like he

00:45:29.540 he knows amy schumer is manufacturing our consent yeah exactly yeah so like you said

00:45:37.600 the author writes none of this has stopped amy schumer from getting jobs and it's like okay yeah

00:45:42.660 exactly which it's just like i don't know how do you how do you how do you inject that into this

00:45:48.860 article that's framing amy schumer as a victim to be like well she's still getting cast in everything

00:45:53.460 and like she still has a top 10 movie on netflix so it's they're trying to make her having like

00:45:58.500 to take zero responsibility for her actions as this kind of again this resiliency narrative and 0.99

00:46:03.540 i think that's just kind of part of the disease of girl boss feminism like like yeah you're so

00:46:07.940 resilient because you didn't get fired because you're basically established you're you're aligning 1.00

00:46:12.380 yourself with the establishment right viewpoint like cool you're very subversive amy schumer and

00:46:17.980 this art it's just so disingenuous this entire article and so then the author and amy schumer

00:46:22.960 are are at this restaurant a few days later and the author writes of this experience moments later

00:46:28.300 a 20 something woman approached our table and addressed schumer thank you for everything you're

00:46:33.380 doing for israel the brooklynite said i follow you on social media and i used to live in israel

00:46:38.740 and thank you we support you after the woman disappears schumer says that moment you just saw

00:46:46.080 maybe 10 times a day that happens to me i i whatever i guess if the author is just

00:46:51.100 uncritically describing her experiences like i'm sure that did happen but it's again it's like

00:46:56.060 she's this hidden hero and it's like a bunch of other people who support the genocide of

00:47:00.560 palestinians come up to me all the time to thank me for my bravery it's like i don't know what

00:47:04.820 that proves about you being a good person it's just yeah other people agree with you on like

00:47:09.220 your account since towards palestinian life it's kind of giving my boyfriend lives in canada

00:47:13.440 cool you know when people in school would be like yeah i have a boyfriend but he lives in canada

00:47:20.480 like i swear people still like me in secret yeah even just what you're saying about her trying to

00:47:27.940 position herself as virtuous like this article even going back to the constantly listing out 0.86

00:47:32.840 you know all these new jobs she's getting all these all of her successful projects like i just 1.00

00:47:36.880 think that the past few decades of feminism like really reoriented women's progress into the market 1.00

00:47:41.400 and it kind of went from you know women fighting for like financial independence in like the 60s

00:47:46.040 and like a life outside of the domestic sphere to like women making as much money as possible

00:47:49.920 so now like a woman making a lot of money and like having all these projects and being materially 0.58

00:47:56.000 successful is viewed as inherently virtuous and like a symbol of progress regardless of like who

00:48:01.620 she is how she got there what her views are so i don't think amy schumer like i wouldn't characterize 0.70

00:48:06.420 her as like a girl boss in the traditional sense like someone like sophia amaruso who created nasty 1.00

00:48:12.020 gal for example but i think she like does lean into a lot of like neoliberal feminist ideas like 1.00

00:48:17.020 we kind of see in this article so often like she really conflates her material success with her 0.99

00:48:21.760 virtue as a person yeah and as a feminist something that also kind of speaks to this which

00:48:26.060 in like my podcast we had an episode about girl bosses and so that's why i'm just thinking about

00:48:30.700 this so much which i highly recommend and it is the episode that made me reach out to maia because

00:48:36.940 she does such a fantastic job covering this topic and i think in a lot of ways amy schumer 0.99

00:48:42.340 is kind of a quintessential girl boss like she doesn't run a fast fashion empire yet but she 0.96

00:48:50.020 has kind of like positioned her comedy in this girl boss way that like we said at the top of 0.82

00:48:54.820 episode in the 2010s worked a lot more than it does now because people are becoming so much

00:49:01.300 more aware i think of like class inequality but like i think she does position herself as like 0.99

00:49:06.800 the girl boss oh true she's definitely like she if she was in girl boss land she'd be kind of like 1.00

00:49:12.720 a few foot feet in the gate like she hasn't yet exploited thousands of people under her but she 1.00

00:49:17.440 is but she's on the way right she's on her little she's walking on the path yeah and she definitely 0.95

00:49:23.480 she's bought right into that ideology yeah and so i'll give my co-host hannah credit for for

00:49:29.180 that episode she did she did the research for that one but she um essentially what we talked

00:49:33.220 about is like any successful woman now is kind of inherently considered a feminist and i think

00:49:38.580 that's you know that's something that's such a big theme in this article so like over the years

00:49:43.180 you know you'll have these like these feminist picture books for children they'll be like great

00:49:47.640 women throughout the years and it'll have like harriet tubman on one page and then on the next

00:49:52.240 page they'll have like margaret thatcher and like or they'll have malala and like even doing 0.58

00:49:59.100 the research on this episode like i i was kind of looking into variety and the ceo of variety

00:50:03.960 michelle sorbino stearns she was she was profiled in this article on forbes for kind of like

00:50:08.780 paving the way for women and there's this photo of her in it next to malala 1.00

00:50:13.400 fuck off stop is there any meaningful difference between like a woman who owns a media empire 0.99

00:50:21.160 and a woman who was shot in the head for advocating for girls education i don't know 1.00

00:50:25.920 according to white feminism not really no like they're truly and that's what i'm saying like

00:50:31.360 material success equals virtue and it's like yeah if we break it down harriet tubman and malala are

00:50:36.600 a part of these like extremely this is such an oversimplification but like these community-based

00:50:42.760 movements right malala is fighting for like the other women in her community to go to school

00:50:48.380 Harriet Tubman is just I shouldn't even have to break this down but it's like

00:50:52.940 what is Amy Schumer doing what is Michelle Sorbino-Stearns doing right so you know Amy

00:50:59.040 Schumer even getting up there she did a speech an acceptance speech for her award yeah and she

00:51:04.200 quoted people like bell hooks and Ruth Bader Ginsburg and essentially like by in doing that

00:51:09.820 you're you're putting yourself on the same level of these women and it's just it's just so indicative

00:51:14.320 of her brand of feminism it reminds me of okay this is maybe kind of a deep cut but it reminds 0.71

00:51:21.400 me of when the self-help author and influencer rachel hollis made a tiktok comparing herself 0.94

00:51:29.440 to harriet tubman

00:51:31.140 i'm telling you the bronchitis i can't laugh

00:51:38.100 no no it's truly it's truly unwell behavior unwell behavior to to really sit there and be like

00:51:47.060 i own this this like scrunchie brand and you know what me and malala we're kind of the same

00:51:55.120 i could see us getting along yeah she did as part of this like kind of like variety power women 1.00

00:52:01.060 media tour she gave a speech like you mentioned in a room full of very wealthy and mostly white 0.99

00:52:09.160 women where she does invoke people like bell hooks and i fact checked this because i was like 0.51

00:52:14.320 there is no way bell hooks was not in solidarity with palestinians and in fact there was no way

00:52:20.420 she signed a few years before her death which was a couple years ago bell hooks signed a statement

00:52:27.020 and solidarity with the palestinian people in 2014 and this it does really make me think just

00:52:33.320 about how embroiled like mainstream contemporary feminism is with capitalism because it's like

00:52:38.260 capitalism tends to bastardize these figures who are who are like anti-capitalist who are known for

00:52:44.020 who are activists essentially like you think of the way it's it's kind of co-opted the art of like

00:52:48.720 jean-michel basquiat and like frida Kahlo and you kind of see this similar thing happening with

00:52:54.560 amy schumer's speech and invoking bell hooks like you can readily assume bell hooks is against

00:52:59.720 imperial violence you know but she she would never stop to think about that because it's like oh bell

00:53:03.840 hooks is a strong woman and so of course i could use her in my speech use her words to accept an

00:53:10.120 award and where i'm essentially like saying that i'm resilient because of because of like hate

00:53:16.960 comments on instagram of like about being racist yeah exactly and it's just it's just shocking she

00:53:23.660 also had this she ends it off on this Ruth Bader Ginsburg quote where she she goes I ask no favor

00:53:29.600 for my sex all I ask of our brethren and then she goes I'm sure you can all say it with me and she

00:53:35.140 says is that they take their feet off our necks Ruth Bader Ginsburg quoted Sarah Grimke when she 0.70

00:53:42.020 said I ask no favor for my sex you can probably all recite the end with me I ask no favor for my 0.53

00:53:48.020 sex all i ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks and it's just that's an

00:53:56.820 extremely powerful quote to use that like in light of a genocide where actual state oppression is 0.80

00:54:03.800 happening against women and people everyone men women children everyone queer people everyone

00:54:09.480 it's just so wrong yeah i mean it's it's unbelievably out of touch with like what i

00:54:17.600 like i'm not a woman but like it feels unbelievably out of touch with like women's issues it's what 0.99

00:54:24.720 you mentioned before about how white feminism kind of one of the hallmarks of it is like 0.99

00:54:28.900 the individuality of it and the sense of self and it's like amy schumer i think sometimes talks 0.81

00:54:34.720 about women's issues but i think a lot of times she's just talking about amy schumer's issues

00:54:38.960 Totally. And I think something that can be often, I feel like, frustrating about the women's rights movement or just feminism in general as a blanket concept is that a lot of people take it and just take it to mean like, okay, this is about me because I'm, let's say, a woman.

00:54:55.680 and it's like no it actually has teachings it has tenets it has debates within it it has

00:55:02.160 it advocates for so many different types of communities it's inter it should be intersectional

00:55:08.640 but because i am a woman i don't actually have to look into any of that like i am just a woman so

00:55:14.560 i'm inherently a feminist and it's like i i do think actually it takes some work to be a feminist

00:55:18.160 i think it takes i think it takes learning you know and i think it's she just makes it clear

00:55:23.900 that she hasn't really done that or she's been very selective in the type of learning she's

00:55:27.600 willing to do. Yeah. Someone else who I think kind of famously engages in this type of feminism

00:55:32.680 is Taylor Swift. We're not talking about Taylor Swift this episode. That is a separate episode 0.97

00:55:37.980 for another day. But like a lot of times, first of all, like people are misogynistic about Amy

00:55:44.040 Schumer and people are misogynistic about Taylor Swift. But these people and like Taylor Swift

00:55:50.160 tends to only invoke feminism when it is in defense of herself as an individual they are

00:55:58.280 saying this about my music because they are misogynist and while in the moment that may be

00:56:04.580 true like making jokes about how taylor swift only sang about her relationships was like what

00:56:08.940 plagued the early years of her career and she rightfully pushed back by saying that sexist

00:56:14.580 and kind of brands herself as a feminist but then kind of just that's oftentimes the extent of

00:56:21.340 these of these celebrities activism about women's issues it's just kind of like

00:56:26.080 personal individual self-defense of their like own reputations it's very much the brand of um

00:56:32.340 sorry i've named probably so many brands of feminism in this one episode but it's kind of 0.99

00:56:37.560 the brand of like feminism is me and my girls and yeah it kind of reminds me of the whole

00:56:41.800 girl's girl discourse which i could go on about forever but it's very like me and mine like uh

00:56:46.480 you come for my girls and i'll stand up for them but i'm going to be really atrocious to you

00:56:50.500 another woman and i think i think it's like a similar kind of co-opting of feminism in a way

00:56:55.000 that's that's extremely self-serving and like apolitical someone someone described taylor swift

00:57:00.800 a few years ago i think it was in 2016 as obnoxiously apolitical and i think that's such 0.95

00:57:05.020 a beautiful way to describe this entire type of type of um feminism i guess could you say

00:57:11.680 more about that just that like it's like you're saying taylor swift not speaking out against you 0.92

00:57:15.880 know specific issues that are plaguing women you know and instead just kind of making it like a

00:57:21.940 what's happening to me today kind of thing like that's not political i think the personal is 0.86

00:57:25.980 political like feminism can be about the self and it can be about like who we are as individual

00:57:30.580 women but i don't think it's a very social approach to feminism not not being issue focused 0.74

00:57:35.300 not being again intersectional is quite apolitical you know it's it's it's taking feminism and it's

00:57:41.180 making it an individual thing and I don't think that it is I think it's a community-based thing

00:57:45.280 I think it's communal I think it's social and it's just frustrating it's frustrating because

00:57:49.780 I think that's the type of the type of feminism that's really taken hold and it's like a very

00:57:53.740 palatable type of feminism it's very digestible you can put it on a t-shirt but I don't actually 0.98

00:57:58.940 think it promotes progress in any like constructive way. Maya as we continue to move forward in the

00:58:06.560 world in feminism what do you think is the place of amy schumer and the type of quote-unquote 0.75

00:58:15.640 feminism she represents i think what we've been seeing since you know the beginning of her career 0.62

00:58:22.000 and just over the past decade or so that she's been in the public sphere i think we've seen like

00:58:26.960 the waning of her feminism and and how much it actually is valued in our society i think like 0.95

00:58:34.880 at the beginning it really had a lot of value and it made sense because she was paving the way

00:58:39.520 but now that the conversation has changed a bit and we're starting to kind of critique 0.99

00:58:43.940 the parameters of that type of feminism and its blind spots the way that she kind of digs her 1.00

00:58:50.900 heels on the ground and sticks to that that one kind of feminism is now starting to feel quite 1.00

00:58:56.780 dated or it has been quite dated for a bit now and i think you know the amount of eye rolls that 1.00

00:59:02.080 she elicits just within that that one speech goes to show that i think when you pair that with her

00:59:08.940 like zionist beliefs i think we're also kind of starting to see the world turn on that as well 0.53

00:59:14.980 as this genocide continues i think we're we're starting to see people become if not skeptical

00:59:22.620 if not skeptical then like outright intolerant towards that that viewpoint and i think that's

00:59:29.060 a good thing but I think that she'll just she'll just always be a very complicated figure to me

00:59:32.940 because of the beginnings of her career and because of the obstacles that she does face

00:59:37.600 and I think I don't think she lies when she says she is one of the most successful women in comedy

00:59:41.860 like we can deny it all we want and I don't I don't agree with that I think that I think that

00:59:46.060 she is and I think it's it's it would be naive to say otherwise but I hope that this conversation

00:59:52.940 will lead to you know opening up the door for other women other voices other people in comedy

00:59:59.840 to to be able to have a spot and people who who don't have these beliefs and who who don't share

01:00:07.300 weird scary memes on the internet i hope i put that adequately enough no i think you absolutely

01:00:14.460 did. No more Instagram. No more Instagram for you, Amy Schumer. To close out, I want to read

01:00:23.940 a little excerpt that I cobbled together from an article from a website called The New Arab,

01:00:29.700 which is titled, Where Are the Voices? A Deafening Silence from the West's White Feminists on Gaza

01:00:35.780 by Yusra Samir Imran. She wrote,

01:00:39.480 Recently, when the 2023 movie Barbie did not take home any Oscars in March, they considered it a loss for feminism. 1.00

01:00:47.220 Just a snapshot of what is currently happening to Palestinian women in Gaza.

01:00:51.620 More than 9,000 women have been killed by the Israeli army, while those who have survived are giving birth without painkillers,

01:00:59.060 undergoing cesarean sections without anesthetic, menstruating without access to toilets, sanitary towels, or water,

01:01:06.260 while many others are being unlawfully detained by the Israeli army,

01:01:11.040 treated degradingly, and forced to strip. 0.97

01:01:13.440 While all this should have been a cause for uproar by feminists worldwide, 1.00

01:01:17.460 the only thing white mainstream feminists can seem to muster energy for 1.00

01:01:21.480 is the misogynistic hate against Taylor Swift and women's football. 1.00

01:01:26.620 Maia, thank you so much for being here today

01:01:30.380 and for blessing this episode with your insights.

01:01:34.080 where can people find you and where can people might i recommend consume more of your work

01:01:41.020 well thank you so much for having me on this is a lovely podcast so i'm i'm grateful to

01:01:46.480 have been a part of it and yeah you can find me on youtube and instagram at brewery de chanel

01:01:53.400 and you can find rehash podcast wherever you get your podcasts and all of those links will be in

01:02:00.020 the bio in the bio all of those links will be in the episode description if you made it this far

01:02:07.220 first of all i'm kind of like sorry for the journey that we've taken you on today because

01:02:12.140 i think it's been a little bit painful but also i don't know there's so much to learn here about

01:02:18.740 what feminism is and what it isn't and what it's come to look like in its kind of most evil forms

01:02:26.680 and um i think it's it's good that every now and then we stop and look around and

01:02:31.720 unpack that so i'm really grateful that you joined us today and uh until next time stay fruity

A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - May 21, 2024

Amy Schumer & the Plague of White Feminism (with Broey Deschanel)

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