A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - Becoming a Woman (with Miss Benny)

00:00:00.000 Caitlyn Jenner to these people is the exact same person as Dylan Mulvaney.

00:00:04.460 And what I don't think people like Caitlyn realize is that when it comes time for gender

00:00:08.480 affirming care to be stripped away from people, it will affect her as well.

00:00:18.000 Hello, hello. I'm Matt Bernstein, and I am so excited to welcome you to A Bit Fruity,

00:00:24.120 the weekly podcast where we'll be joined by celebrities, journalists, thought leaders,

00:00:28.400 and experts and just dive deeper into the people, the events, the culture wars that are shaping the

00:00:34.420 world around us. I am truly so grateful and happy that you're here today. If you like this podcast,

00:00:40.440 you can follow us on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts to be notified when we

00:00:45.800 release new episodes. You can also find us on Instagram at abitfruitypod and on YouTube. All

00:00:51.080 of those links will be in the episode description. Today we are joined by an extremely special guest.

00:00:56.540 She and I have been friends since both of our past lives.

00:01:00.300 She is now the star of her own Netflix show, Glamorous.

00:01:03.780 She's also newly out to the world as a transgender woman.

00:01:07.740 We have a really great conversation for you today about dating as trans women and feminine

00:01:13.180 gay people.

00:01:14.240 We talk some shit about gay Republicans and why they can't accept the rest of the community

00:01:18.280 and often themselves.

00:01:20.440 We talk about what it was like for her to go back and play a formerly cis gay male version

00:01:26.500 of herself once she was already out as a trans woman. It was a really special and meaningful

00:01:30.400 conversation. And she's a star. She is glamorous. She's a lady. Please welcome Miss Benny.

00:01:37.480 Hi, I'm so excited to be here. This is so surreal and fun for us.

00:01:43.600 Should we start with where we met, how we met, the beginnings of us knowing each other? Because

00:01:48.980 I really do feel like we were both in past lives. Yeah, we were in like queer infancy

00:01:55.060 and it's like purest form um I don't actually remember how we met I know it was like the

00:02:01.800 internet because we were in different cities but I just remember like one day I didn't know you and

00:02:08.220 then the next day I knew you and then the next thing I knew I was crashing at your place and we

00:02:14.040 were doing each other's makeup in your bedroom on the floor or like inches from each other

00:02:20.120 yeah so i was a college student and i was living with my roommate at the time in this

00:02:28.640 it was in lower east side it was a sixth floor walk up a lot of mice it was the kind of and

00:02:35.600 like this is so gross but like it was just the period of my life that i was in five years ago

00:02:39.640 where like you couldn't really walk barefoot in the apartment yeah without the bottom of your feet

00:02:45.480 turning black sort of situation um and how how kind were you not to even remark about that it

00:02:53.960 was so funny because we i was like so like i love makeup i wear makeup but then i was so scared to

00:03:00.340 be like too like womanly about it like whatever the hell that means no totally and so you and i

00:03:07.400 were like being so delicate and how we put it on but we both clearly wanted to like go heavy

00:03:13.420 what's so funny is i remember us sitting on the floor for like actually an hour and a half probably

00:03:18.340 like doing our makeup and then this morning in preparation for recording this i went back and i

00:03:22.980 looked at the pictures of us and you were wearing like a wink of eyeshadow i think like two shades

00:03:29.160 of it like neutrals it was like tiny tiny neutral yeah exactly um but and and i don't think we

00:03:37.480 actually went anywhere because we were both 19 yeah even if you have a fake id it's really hard

00:03:44.420 to use it in manhattan because places are really strict we also were very like if i remember

00:03:49.280 correctly we were like dressed in like devil and angel yes something like there was some sort of

00:03:55.160 costume element that i genuinely don't remember how it came about but when i see those photos i'm

00:03:59.100 like oh you're literally like a hell's kitchen demon twink like you're literally in that photo

00:04:05.220 you are exactly that description and then i don't know what the hell i was but it's cute we got

00:04:11.780 dinner one night at the flame diner in hell's kitchen oh my god i walked all the way there

00:04:17.260 from where i was wherever i was before and it was like way too long for my la legs by the way i think

00:04:22.180 i remember telling you i was like oh i walked here it was so chic meanwhile i was like panicking on

00:04:26.040 the walkover because i was like i this is not for me i remember we sat down and you were like

00:04:31.180 cute inner corner highlight you know i i was really looking i was really looking for affirmation at

00:04:37.260 that point in makeup because i didn't know what the fuck i was doing and i was like let me be a

00:04:40.640 little bitch about this i'm gonna make this little one feel so bad well you did you did make me feel

00:04:46.080 bad but you were like you know if i were you have you thought of mascara and i was

00:04:53.220 have you ever this is so weird have you ever thought of putting on makeup like i was really

00:04:59.420 wow because i didn't know what i was doing and i was like honestly i think mascara looks bad

00:05:05.920 on me and it was you know i i didn't i didn't know how to do my makeup and i do want to say

00:05:11.120 this was me trying to protect you because the first like two years that i wore makeup when i

00:05:15.520 was like 14 and 15 i for some reason in my mind doing eyeshadow felt like no one knows that i'm

00:05:22.560 wearing this but wearing mascara was like oh my god i've put you know the glitz and the glam on

00:05:28.000 and so I used to put on like a wash what we call garage doors of just red I mean like bright red

00:05:35.340 eyeshadow and then I wouldn't dare put on mascara because I was like no then it's like punk it's

00:05:41.640 like I didn't try like it seems like effortless and when I looked back at those photos even then

00:05:46.500 I remember thinking what an idiot you got to put mascara on or it just looks like you didn't finish

00:05:50.440 and so I was trying to protect you from what like I had been in that moment processing for the first

00:05:56.500 time but I do also believe me in that era being like oh that's so cute like no mascara no problem

00:06:04.500 that's fun good for you like it's like an intentional artistic choice and just like

00:06:09.240 and not just me I just love that you'll just really like go out well for me it was like

00:06:15.540 mascara and lipstick I like couldn't because it was if I wore those then I was like actually being

00:06:21.000 gay and like approximating a woman more closely than was within my comfort level right side note

00:06:27.480 do you know what album was written in the flame diner what album was written in the flame diner

00:06:35.200 um no i don't i mean i want to think flame was it like dolly parton's field of the flame era

00:06:41.820 no this is a fun fact trivia that i confirmed last night while i was making show notes for today

00:06:47.600 melodrama in the flame diner yeah because lord was recording for that album in new york city

00:06:55.120 wow and her like late night refuge to like go and write and like be at peace with her creative

00:07:02.200 process was literally the flame diner you think we knew that at that time because that would have

00:07:06.200 gagged me then yeah definitely not but i just like imagine lord sitting there with like the sticky

00:07:12.000 like the syrupy sticky tabletops of like i think she was wearing mascara do you think she was also

00:07:16.860 scared of being too womanly you think she was like this is too much I'm just gonna wear a little bit

00:07:22.600 of inner corner and Jack Antonoff was like love the inner corner diva so let's get into it you

00:07:30.940 we were 19 around the time that we met and you say that you feel like you were on your third life and

00:07:36.420 in a way I feel like you were in a way that I definitely wasn't yet um and so I don't want to

00:07:44.460 stay here long but i want to revisit the first time i remember seeing you which was not when we

00:07:51.380 met which was on the internet craigslist rip craigslist

00:07:57.300 no it was on i think it was on tumblr or youtube or something you so you have been a recording

00:08:06.120 artist you are a recording artist now and you have had you have had eras yeah and the earliest

00:08:14.000 that of which that I saw was you had a song I promise we won't stay here long but you had a

00:08:19.440 song called little game no I'm very proud of this it's cringy in the same way that like looking at

00:08:25.120 photos from when you were 13 or 14 are you know totally and so I want to quickly describe little

00:08:31.660 game I feel like uh if you're listening to this podcast you may have seen it around 2014 but the

00:08:39.340 music video for this song which was about kind of rejecting gender norms and gendered expectations

00:08:46.560 for you know teenagers men and women uh when the music video went incredibly viral and it showed

00:08:53.960 you know it was a very like kind of cut and dry like pink and blue representation of like these

00:09:02.640 six teenagers three boys and three girls who were like terrified to reject what was expected of them

00:09:10.880 as like young boys and girls and then they do and it's kind of this like glorious crescendo and then

00:09:17.460 miss benny is there like with the blue and pink colored powder on her face and it was like

00:09:22.240 extremely i feel like it was one of like the seminal pieces of early 2010s tumblr aestheticized

00:09:31.160 gender norm breakage which sounds like an extremely specific genre of media but like it

00:09:37.260 has 33 million views on youtube as of right now it's crazy and like almost 50 000 comments

00:09:43.360 and i remember seeing it on tumblr youtube or something as like everyone was like you guys

00:09:48.500 have to watch this and like indeed i did because even though yeah now you look back and it's like

00:09:54.440 the visuals i don't think it's something miss benny would put out today i filmed it with like

00:10:00.720 a canon t3i handheld out of focus like it was so sweet first of all the funny one is that at that

00:10:09.740 time i was i wasn't even out as gay to my family or my friends at the time um let alone trans and

00:10:16.480 so at that point i was like i'm just such a fierce ally like i'm doing something so sweet for these

00:10:21.580 people it's so cool of me and then um i had never written or produced a song before so that was like

00:10:27.920 the first time i'd ever done that that song's not even like mixed or mastered like it's so

00:10:32.420 embarrassing now as like a music producer i'm gonna like nod like i know what that means uh

00:10:37.480 yeah yeah it's very it's very much what lord was um talking about with melodrama but it's crazy

00:10:42.860 that it wasn't mr master it's crazy so embarrassing but uh it also was like i shot that whole music

00:10:50.300 video myself i mean most of it was on a tripod and the rest of i was hand held it's so funny

00:10:56.040 Because when I look back at it, I, you know, obviously I have parts of you that cringe for how, you know, rough around the edges it is.

00:11:02.300 But I'm also just like impressed with how bold I was at that age to be like, not only am I going to make something that's so like topically controversial, especially in my hometown in Texas, but also to like decide, oh, I'm going to produce and create a moment and I'm going to put it out there and it's going to have its own legs.

00:11:23.860 And it's pretty crazy.

00:11:24.760 I mean, I think it's just had such an impact that I never would have expected.

00:11:29.560 And at the time, I just, I remember thinking like, oh my God, maybe it'll get like 10,000

00:11:33.660 views.

00:11:34.240 And then it did that in the first day.

00:11:36.540 And I was like, I don't even have 10,000 like followers or subscribers.

00:11:39.560 So I don't know how that happened.

00:11:40.540 And then I think I went to bed that night and woke up and I had like 300,000 and then

00:11:44.460 it just kept growing and growing.

00:11:46.320 And it's pretty insane.

00:11:47.360 I mean, at the time that genre was so specific that it was like me and Hayley Kiyoko with

00:11:52.700 Girls Like Girls.

00:11:53.780 with girls like girls another seminal piece of incredible which again when you look back at it

00:11:58.940 you're like oh this is so like sweet and like not at all controversial to look at but at the time

00:12:04.980 it was like really shocking for a lot of people so yeah i remember at that time being like oh

00:12:10.980 it's cool me and hayley kyoko like she played stevie and wizards of waverly place that's fine

00:12:15.680 and then all of a sudden like it just kind of we got associated together and it was sort of this

00:12:21.040 tumblr wave it's pretty cool what's interesting about little game you know i watched that video

00:12:26.360 when i was a teenager it had a big effect on me and i know it was having a big effect on a lot of

00:12:32.460 other like teenagers at the time um but you know i've grown up i haven't i haven't like watched

00:12:38.340 little game in a while but and you've never talked about anything relating to gender ever again

00:12:43.240 but i was i went back and i looked at some of the recent youtube comments you know i went to the

00:12:52.660 youtube video and i clicked newest for the comment board oh my god and i have some screenshots of

00:12:59.180 them that i want to read to you in no particular order okay i haven't read these in almost like i

00:13:05.240 want to say nine years maybe 10 years however long i read them for the first like six months

00:13:09.780 and then i stopped so this is all new to me well the viewers of little game are back and they're

00:13:14.960 adults and everyone's gay so toby says every transgender person has a deep history with this

00:13:23.300 song blues man says i used to listen to this when i was younger and now i'm trans mask i think this

00:13:29.160 is where i started to realize wow now i'm back love this song as a kid i'm transgender how funny

00:13:35.620 it should have given me clues sooner oh my god gooey gaster 30 says i'm back in 2023

00:13:42.340 and yes i am trans stole teachy toby's gender says this was my childhood song i can see why

00:13:51.340 i'm transgender these are all in the last week by the way wow listening to this song again as

00:13:55.720 a trans man is it weird that it hits differently oh wow i watched this on repeat in middle school

00:14:00.160 and now I'm trans oh my gosh also you miss Benny are trans did is it spoilers well I don't know why

00:14:12.300 I said that like an accusation like you're transgender no it's fine you can accuse me of

00:14:16.540 that I'll take the allegation it's like almost prophetic in a sense that you made this thing

00:14:24.520 when you know you were in like eighth or ninth grade that was almost like foreshadowing not only

00:14:33.720 for your own like journey with sexuality and gender but also for like millions of other people

00:14:39.420 it's crazy i mean it's truly a testament of you know yourself better than you realize

00:14:44.200 i at the time like i had no concern that i was trans like i i literally at that time was like

00:14:52.020 praying to wake up as a girl I remember thinking like I'm not trans but like if I could wake up

00:14:58.320 tomorrow and like suddenly be like my sisters like I would do that but wouldn't everybody like

00:15:02.280 I I was in such denial about it that I thought I was just sort of advocating and being such like a

00:15:07.720 good little ally it's funny like you would think that I would have known earlier because of the

00:15:13.040 topic of the song and how that kind of became my platform but I mean truly I was in such denial

00:15:18.760 that i was like let me do let me do these girls a favor let me give them a little treat and then

00:15:23.820 i'll leave yeah well i was i was watching the video now and then knowing that you're trans and

00:15:29.520 just looking back in hindsight it's like oh this song and video are very much about being transgender

00:15:34.220 literally like the like the there's two of the actors one of like the young boys and girls at

00:15:40.960 the end they like basically like swap pink and blue as this like symbolic you know crossing over

00:15:48.220 to the other side and I'm like oh yeah like this is about being trans even if she didn't know it

00:15:53.380 yet I wish that I could go back and interview myself like behind closed doors because I know

00:15:58.480 at the time I was very like media trained about how I wanted to talk about it because I was still

00:16:03.160 closeted and like figuring things out and so I didn't really have the vocabulary but I think

00:16:07.320 had I been able to talk about it freely I would have had maybe some of those thoughts articulated

00:16:12.140 because at the time what I was doing just felt so instinctual I mean I even think about that

00:16:16.520 moment towards the end like it's so like angsty and kind of like I don't know there's something

00:16:22.120 kind of punk about it that I like but at the time I didn't really know that I was just like this

00:16:25.900 makes sense for a story for me I wish that I could go back and ask myself like how do you really feel

00:16:30.820 about this because I don't think I would have talked candidly to anybody about it at that time

00:16:35.320 but watching it now it's just I mean I haven't watched it myself in a long time just being

00:16:39.660 completely transparent but at the time I remember just or like in the most recent years thinking

00:16:45.040 about it like I just it's so bold like you would think that I knew exactly what I was doing but I

00:16:53.200 really did it so you were out as gay for quite a while before you were out as trans did you have

00:17:02.420 separate awakenings or was your coming out as gay consciously or subconsciously maybe

00:17:12.480 a step in the direction that you were going to end up going in my awakening for being gay and

00:17:18.920 my awakening for being trans were definitely I say separate but when I say that I mean the moment

00:17:24.180 that I like came to peace about it were separate um because I feel like maybe a lot of gay people

00:17:31.740 relate to this but like I knew I was gay very young yeah I mean I remember having my first

00:17:38.100 crush on a boy when I was on a soccer team when I was like seven or eight and we we were both

00:17:44.040 really bad at soccer so we would just pick the flowers by the goal and give them to each other

00:17:48.100 I remember his name I remember what he looked like I remember everything about like I I will

00:17:53.960 always remember that because that was the first time I felt like butterflies for a boy and your

00:17:58.440 parents your parents were watching you being like oh my god that's a normal thing that

00:18:03.440 gender heterosexual men do? I would love to call them and ask. No, but I had that moment when I

00:18:11.040 was as early as like seven or eight, but I didn't have my awakening of like, oh, I'm gay until I

00:18:17.560 was probably like 11 or 12. And so in the same way being trans, I knew since I was very little

00:18:22.160 that I wanted to be a girl and that I felt like a girl. And I remember before I even knew what the

00:18:27.160 word trans meant, I mean, this is probably when I was like eight or nine, I remember praying that,

00:18:31.420 you know, my only concept of like wishing for something was God at the time. And so I remember

00:18:35.260 praying every night that I would wake up and magically be like my sisters. I don't know why,

00:18:39.800 but I just, and at the time I thought it was because I didn't want to like boys, but I think

00:18:43.980 later on now I realized it was a lot of things, but I would pray to like wake up as a girl and

00:18:49.480 then I would wake up and I would feel devastated. And I would like start every single morning like

00:18:53.960 that, which is such like a clear sign of a kid experiencing gender dysphoria. That being said,

00:19:00.120 my actual trans awakening wasn't until i was 21 i want to say 21 or 22 it was like right at the top

00:19:08.500 of the pandemic which was like not that long ago no this was yeah this was like two years ago maybe

00:19:14.320 and um i had seen all these people talk about this show called veneno which is a spanish show about

00:19:19.720 um a transgender icon i it looked amazing it looked like really i remember at the time it

00:19:25.360 was a scene of this you know from the scene you would think a little boy like at an altar walking

00:19:31.820 down and strutting and like this catholic garb I don't know and I thought oh that looks fierce I'll

00:19:37.880 watch that and then I watched it and in the first episode there's a scene where this young queer

00:19:44.340 person who's questioning their gender talks to their trans icon and gets to ask her you know

00:19:52.320 when did you start transitioning? What was that like for you? And she answers. And then she looks

00:19:56.940 to the young queer person and says, and when will you start? And it like, I remember I had to pause

00:20:02.380 it. I was with my friend at the time and I walked to the other room and I like hyperventilated and

00:20:09.180 started crying. It was just like, I, it finally connected to me after years of questioning

00:20:14.560 that I was like, if somebody asked me that question right now, I would just immediately

00:20:21.120 think about how desperately I wish I could say right now, I'm starting right now. Like this is

00:20:25.880 the moment I'm starting. To answer your question, my awakenings were definitely separate, but

00:20:29.780 they were something that I always knew about myself. It just took quite a while to make peace

00:20:35.240 with it. Yeah. And you say that you had those feelings when you were young about just wanting

00:20:42.040 to wake up one day as a woman. Did you, cause I feel like that's, you know, not only an experience

00:20:50.080 that all like a lot of trans youth share and trans people share in general but also like I feel like

00:20:55.080 a lot of you know it's a blurry line between that and also like the experience of gay youth and queer

00:21:00.040 youth generally of like do I want to be a woman because I had a lot of moments where I questioned

00:21:05.560 like do I want to be a woman and when I came out as gay to my mom I remember we had like a long

00:21:12.000 sort of back and forth like over months where I started feeling comfortable with my femininity

00:21:18.300 And I remember one time I like went to the Gap and bought women's jeans because I was like, they just fit me better. It's really not that deep this time, I promise. And she was like, do you want to be a woman? Oh, my God, my stomach dropped.

00:21:29.380 i feel like a lot of people both in and out of the community you know those feelings kind of end up

00:21:36.040 all being in the same basket of like am i gay am i a woman am i a man am i non-binary am i you know

00:21:42.620 whatever i guess when you came out as gay originally were you like at the time were you

00:21:49.140 like oh this is the reason i'm having those feelings it's because i'm gay and now those

00:21:52.800 feelings should feel resolved and then they weren't partially i mean i remember when i came

00:21:57.460 out as gay I felt such a I didn't have an entirely positive experience coming out as gay I want to

00:22:03.560 start by saying that but I will say that the feeling I had after no matter the negative or

00:22:09.020 the positive attached to it was just relief I was just happy to know that I was like in the thick

00:22:14.000 of being out because I had thought of it for so long and it had just worn me out to think of it

00:22:19.840 and so I remember at the time I felt just general relief about my identity and so that that bought

00:22:25.740 me some time. And then I was living in LA around the same time. So I just left my hometown and

00:22:33.040 it was really easy for me to compartmentalize my trans thoughts because I just, I gave myself

00:22:38.180 every couple of chapters of my life, I'd give myself a little more freedom. So, you know,

00:22:44.100 I came out as gay. That felt like freedom. That meant I didn't have to think about it.

00:22:48.080 Right.

00:22:48.720 Then I started wearing makeup that felt like freedom. So then I didn't have to think about it.

00:22:52.620 I started dating, that felt like freedom. And so I didn't have to think about it. And truly,

00:22:58.320 it felt like this sort of thing behind me, like lurking behind my shoulder. And I was just able

00:23:05.260 to kind of distract it for a really long time with other exciting things. And then it just

00:23:12.000 kind of bubbled up to a point where I just got, I mean, I feel like a lot of trans people have

00:23:17.680 talked about this, but when the pandemic happened, I had no distractions. There was nothing but time

00:23:25.280 for me to be home. And genetically speaking, my facial hair grows really fast. And so if I don't

00:23:33.480 have something to do every day, I won't necessarily shave every day, which means I was just seeing

00:23:38.780 myself as a man in his 20s, which I was deeply uncomfortable with. And so yeah, I think coming

00:23:46.480 out definitely felt like some sort of release and felt like some sort of distraction but

00:23:51.340 that sort of gender dysphoria always manifested again and sometimes way harsher than before

00:23:59.040 well so it was like everything up till that point coming out as gay coming out as a gay person who

00:24:06.020 is feminine or wears makeup you know dating men they were all like scratching and itch

00:24:12.360 but never like fully examining why yeah you were itchy in the first place if I can extend the

00:24:17.760 metaphor yeah and also you know it was really challenging for me and this maybe I don't know

00:24:21.660 if it's less relatable or just interesting but um I started going by the name Miss Benny before I

00:24:27.320 realized I was trans I remember I was like oh what a fun quirky artist name yeah and it's it's funny

00:24:34.920 like this was sort of a through line through my whole like queer adolescence where I started

00:24:39.740 wearing makeup when I was like 14 or 15. I started publicly wearing makeup when I was like 15 or 16.

00:24:44.620 And I remember my dad's justification for me wearing makeup. And I will say my dad has come

00:24:51.080 a very long way since this moment. My dad never had an issue with the fact that I was cross-dressing.

00:24:56.940 He had more of an issue with the fact that I liked boys, right? And his reasoning was that

00:25:01.960 me wearing makeup wasn't feminine. It was because I was like a rock star.

00:25:06.020 because my dad like idolized rock stars in the 80s i like held on to that idea for a long time

00:25:13.560 where even to myself i saw miss benny as like a persona as if i was like a drag queen like this

00:25:21.440 is like something i put on and then i take it off and i go home i used to say that when i put on

00:25:26.580 makeup i wasn't trying to feminize i was trying to decorate what i naturally had which was very

00:25:32.180 much us doing the angel and the devil you were like i'm gonna use one brown eyeshadow to decorate

00:25:36.740 my face as it is we're like a little bit of pencil right a wink of chapstick and that's it just a

00:25:43.580 little flourish um yeah and so and it wasn't until the pandemic hit that i realized like oh i'm not

00:25:50.920 visible at all i'm off of social media i'm not leaving my house and yet i still want to be miss

00:25:57.800 Benny. I still need an, I need an outlet to do that. And so that's when it became more apparent

00:26:05.040 to me that this wasn't something that I was cultivating as a creative output. It was something

00:26:10.560 I was cultivating as like a euphoric state of being. And that was really strange for me because

00:26:17.740 I had spent years sort of making peace with just being like a feminine gay guy. And I was also like,

00:26:23.380 i was kind of like a successful gay guy like and i mean that in the way of my goals at the time

00:26:28.940 were to be like validated sexually and validated romantically and validated socially and i was like

00:26:34.760 really good at that and so i was like oh i must not be trans because i love being like a hot

00:26:41.640 young little gay twink right which you were which i was she killed it which you were

00:26:48.320 we ate it up uh i was probably messy on that trip in new york with you and we don't have to talk

00:26:54.680 about that but she was in an era and um to the point that even like when i knew post veneno

00:27:02.100 like after i realized i was trans i was still like flaunting a mustache occasionally because

00:27:07.940 it made me feel more valuable as a gay man and i like couldn't let that go i mean in the trans

00:27:16.080 community people call that sort of like a denial beard um I had a denial mustache that I was like

00:27:21.940 I remember the denial mustache well yeah it was hot I loved it but I was like oh I don't want to

00:27:27.760 look like this I want men I want to be around men that look like this yeah yeah well and like

00:27:34.900 confusing the validation and enjoying the validation that you were getting as a gay man

00:27:40.060 with like enjoying being a gay man yeah absolutely and I feel like a lot of trans people feel this

00:27:45.900 is my relationships leading up to me realizing I was trans were like pendulum swings where the

00:27:51.700 first boy that I, not first, but one of my first significant relationships, he did not want to

00:27:57.560 touch me when I had makeup on. He would say that he was like, oh, I'm fine with you wearing makeup

00:28:01.980 when we go out, but I don't want to kiss you until the lipstick is off. Like that was his sort of

00:28:05.500 attitude. And I remember thinking that was fine. And then later I was like, oh no, he was deeply

00:28:09.340 uncomfortable with femininity, internalized homophobia, all of that fun stuff. And then my

00:28:14.080 next boyfriend i like overcompensated and he like loved when i had makeup on like was very into the

00:28:20.720 makeup because he saw it as like subversive and like punk and kinky and like oh totally yeah i've

00:28:27.860 been with guys oh i'm sure with your acrylic i'm sure i mean the men men love the nails let me tell

00:28:35.860 you the ones who love it they love it men love the nails they can't stop eating it up yeah i mean

00:28:41.600 we're gonna get into this but i just want to say like when it comes to the nails there are a lot of

00:28:49.040 gay men and and yeah we're gonna get into you know dating and hookups as trans girls as gender

00:28:55.640 non-conforming people as feminine gay men we're gonna get there and and dive into it but i will

00:29:00.460 say just about the nails it is true that a lot of gay men are turned off by like any sign of

00:29:05.840 femininity but there's also a lot of them and a good section within this population that's ashamed

00:29:10.740 of it that like really love the feminine stuff whether you're trans whether you're like a femme

00:29:17.240 boy i know that's right they like totally get off on it and i've had experiences where i've just been

00:29:23.680 like not at all ready for like nails to be fetishized in bed and yeah there we are you know

00:29:31.200 taking our clothes off and like men will be like can you twist my nipples with your acrylic

00:29:35.380 it was like we didn't discuss this yeah it's the it's the nail visual it's it's tough i mean

00:29:44.000 navigate i'm sure it's so funny like the crossover between trans women and like femme gay men is so

00:29:50.900 interesting because there is a navigation you have to go through of how much attraction to

00:29:57.720 my femininity is too much and how much is like suddenly not good i mean i remember there was

00:30:05.000 like an early trans like sexual experience i had where this guy who i was like oh he likes that i'm

00:30:12.700 feminine he likes that i'm like a trans girl because this is when i was like living as trans

00:30:16.520 but not out he said something that like immediately made me realize oh there is a balance to be had

00:30:21.420 here which is was we kissed and he was like oh i love how like feminine you are but i feel your

00:30:27.220 stubble he was like i love that i can like feel this it's like soft and then rough and i was like

00:30:33.760 ooh that bites in a different way like there yeah that was like that means that you like

00:30:40.620 you see this as like some sort of perverted like yes twist like I don't know it it made me realize

00:30:47.840 like okay like there are going to be men that like eat you up but that does not mean you have

00:30:52.720 to serve them a plate you know what I mean absolutely I when I first got to New York when

00:30:58.320 i was in college i was a total grinder addict yeah because it was like i felt like a kid in

00:31:03.960 a candy shop i just like couldn't stop gay twink like moving to a big city and like

00:31:08.660 we all know the apps yeah that's we all have to go through it it's a canon event as tiktokers say

00:31:15.560 absolutely i was i was not special in that but i did you know in my time on that app which was

00:31:22.960 extensive i played around a lot with the way that i advertised myself um as far as you know my my

00:31:30.480 the picture that i used on my grinder profile and i you know when i would have like my i was

00:31:35.480 so skinny then and when i would do like my little like skinny 110 pound boy abs with no nails and

00:31:43.640 no nothing um you know i would get messages and they were pretty like run-of-the-mill grinder

00:31:48.620 messages and then sometimes I would change it to a picture in my full beat like expecting not to

00:31:54.240 get any messages and there were definitely fewer yeah but the ones that I did get were people being

00:31:58.980 like hi and be like hi and they're like are you wearing panties to match that eyeshadow and I was

00:32:04.660 like wait what yeah it's like the second the second you start expressing yourself in a feminine way

00:32:10.880 people definitely consume it as a fetish all the time yeah and I will say like as someone who is

00:32:17.320 like scraping the bottom of the barrel for validation at that time I was like no but I can

00:32:22.680 if you want you know it's you would eat it up too for a check let me tell you I was an employee

00:32:29.520 yeah I basically at that time I remember I did the same thing as you I mean I was doing the same

00:32:34.600 thing as you even while I was living as a trans woman but closeted like I was operating kind of

00:32:39.120 both fields because I was like this is probably the last time I'm gonna get to use this marketing

00:32:43.400 So I should, I should soak it up at least while I have it.

00:32:46.120 And the thing that I always thought was so interesting is when I was presenting as a

00:32:49.500 boy, I feel like I'd get like a hundred messages, but it was all people being like, Hey, like

00:32:55.640 I might be interested in showing up for you.

00:32:58.180 And then when I would post out as like feminine or as a trans woman, I'd get maybe 10 messages,

00:33:03.880 but they'd be people who were like, I will die for you.

00:33:07.260 I will do anything for you.

00:33:08.880 Literally ravenous.

00:33:10.140 And like, that's not necessarily a positive.

00:33:12.620 no but it was interesting because i realized like oh like first of all great validation that there

00:33:18.500 are people out there who will be attracted to me also scary to think that you then have to vet

00:33:25.280 i mean what i'm going through right now that's honestly so scary and i have like further empathy

00:33:31.240 for women that i have always had empathy for is like i'm realizing that i love gay boys

00:33:37.360 the gay boys don't necessarily love me anymore you know what i mean like you're gay i totally

00:33:43.760 get it but that means now my pool of boys is like the bisexuals pansexuals who like by the way if

00:33:50.420 there's any listening holla i'm right here i'm happy that also means that like now my one of

00:33:56.120 my target demographics is like straight men which i know nothing about right and who are notoriously

00:34:02.400 awful right so it's like i'm suddenly realizing that this i mean i've as every gay boy has been

00:34:09.920 through i'm sure like i've had to ally through so many of my straight female friends horrible

00:34:15.440 experiences with men and then suddenly i'm like oh i'm getting this validation of my gender which

00:34:21.120 is like these straight men are like no yeah no questions asked i think you're attractive and i'm

00:34:25.620 like oh my god but then it's also like oh god anyway that's just me mourning the loss of gay

00:34:31.820 boys in my dms it's okay now they're like instead of being like hey they're like hey

00:34:36.680 i'm like i love you queen and you're like like can you be my drag mom but i'm like can you

00:34:43.480 kiss me like i'm like how dare you ask me about what extensions i'm wearing come extend a hug

00:34:51.040 please one of the things so in glamorous which is your new series on netflix say it again which is

00:35:01.600 Just truly fucking fantastic. You play a kind of gender nonconforming, early 20s gay boy named Marco, who in the end we discover is perhaps questioning whether he's a gay boy at all.

00:35:17.820 um but he we kind of follow his like trials and tribulations of some of the things that we've

00:35:24.240 been talking about as far as early adulthood you know sexual and romantic experiences and first

00:35:29.900 which for queer people like usually don't happen in high school like that stuff usually does start

00:35:34.780 happening and you know college or in your early 20s and i remember one scene where marco first

00:35:40.640 meets parker who's his kind of like masculine hot finance bro fling on and off boyfriend situation

00:35:48.960 they go to to parker's apartment and they like hop in bed for like what is presumably their first

00:35:55.700 time having sex and you see marco's high heel just like kick up which was just like i know that's a

00:36:03.500 very specific visual reference, but I was watching the show and I saw this like feminine gay kid

00:36:11.380 with the high heel, you know, running off to bed with this other gay guy who is wildly attracted

00:36:18.420 to him. And I was just like, I wish I had seen that when I was 18 and when I first moved to a

00:36:27.760 City and when I was first on Grindr because at the same time, and I think people might be able

00:36:34.040 to relate to this, especially the young gay boys and other queer people or non-binary, gender

00:36:38.780 not conforming, whatever. At the time that I was coming into myself as a queer person who

00:36:44.940 wanted to wear makeup, who wanted to explore my femininity, I was also coming into myself as like

00:36:50.580 a person with Grindr. Right. Those two experiences did not feel like they could happen

00:36:57.480 in the same universe because gay men can be really shitty about femininity yeah and it's

00:37:05.460 in it's internalized like it's kind of taught and i mean if demonizing femininity is taught

00:37:12.080 to men in general especially within themselves but it's always interesting to me because it

00:37:18.840 it typically comes from a place of self uh shame i find that a lot of the times i mean i don't know

00:37:25.880 if you relate to this at all as like a very flamboyant person but what are you talking about

00:37:30.760 sorry i didn't mean to out you to everybody in the world um on the a bit fruity podcast

00:37:36.100 you're like just a bit not that much um or maybe you're saying you're fruity as a bit like it's a

00:37:43.500 joke right there's lots to be dissected with that title but no i was like kind of like at the front

00:37:50.940 lines in the trenches as like a feminine person. And so a lot of the gay people who are closeted

00:37:56.480 around me, it was really easy for them to take out frustration on me. And within the show, I mean,

00:38:02.540 something that we see with Marco's sort of love triangle is like, this person, Parker, is very

00:38:08.160 attracted to Marco, and like, very much wants to be with Marco, but also like, has this ingrained

00:38:15.340 idea of like i can't i think the phrase he uses in the show is like draw attention or like turn

00:38:22.320 heads it's ashamed yeah this is ashamed and it's unfortunate because i find that like a lot of gay

00:38:29.340 men love things that are feminine and like a lot of i mean think about when we think of the phrase

00:38:34.700 gay icon a lot of the time we think of like straight pop stars but women yeah because we

00:38:40.200 love femininity we love to see it we like to see drag queens we love it because it feels free in

00:38:46.340 some way but this idea of being like a gay man who loves men is like totally it's sad i think and i

00:38:53.440 don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with being attracted to masculinity but when

00:38:57.340 your attraction to masculinity comes at the cost of shaming femininity that's when i'm like

00:39:02.180 you know and and i think that a lot of times people you know not to get too like campus sjw

00:39:11.580 but i feel like a lot of times gay men's attraction to things that are only masculine to men that are

00:39:17.740 only masculine like even if they're not going out and being like fuck them guys you know i hate them

00:39:22.600 like i think it is worth being examined you know i think it's worth being introspected because

00:39:28.920 it's so funny you know i meet these like masculine muscular gay men who the second you do a shot

00:39:37.800 with them at a party they're like okay who brought the wigs they love a wig these mask for mask boys

00:39:44.160 love a wig they love a kitten heel if they're feeling crazy uh-huh a performance shoe a

00:39:51.540 performance shoe a sensible three inches and but you know it's like i wish i like want for my gay

00:39:58.100 men my brothers I want them out of the trenches like I want to free them from feeling like at the

00:40:04.620 end of the day they have to be in a relationship that like is is heterosexual and heteronormative

00:40:11.680 in every way except for the fact that it's two men yeah something that I'm like I'm really

00:40:16.200 passionate about this talking point because it's affected me for so many years and I didn't think

00:40:20.980 that it would manifest with glamorous as much as it has but i feel that a lot of the time

00:40:27.340 masculine gay men who might genuinely just be masculine gay men which is fine it may not be

00:40:33.160 performative at all which is fine if you want to finish listening to this podcast and go like

00:40:37.360 chop wood yeah we're not here to stop you if you're wearing like a little tank top and cargo

00:40:44.020 pants like i love that we we feature that um but the thing for me is with glamorous when it came

00:40:50.620 out when the trailer came out when the first photos came out i remember the number one group

00:40:56.180 of people that were homophobic about it were not straight people it was not the fox news crowd it

00:41:02.800 was gay men and a lot of the time it was gay men saying some sort of claim of i'm sick of being

00:41:09.560 represented as a stereotype i'm sick of seeing stereotypes on tv of gay men and for me i mean

00:41:15.580 there's so many reasons why that's frustrating i mean there's so many gay characters in this show

00:41:18.820 and I'm the only one who's as flamboyant as I am.

00:41:21.100 So there are very many gay men in the show

00:41:24.140 for you to not feel flamboyant and stereotypical.

00:41:27.300 But for me, it was very frustrating

00:41:29.280 because I don't think Marco is stereotypical.

00:41:33.160 I think there are stereotypes about people like Marco.

00:41:35.940 But for me, I've always been a feminine person.

00:41:39.440 This isn't something that I'm putting on

00:41:40.880 to appease people's perception of what a gay person is.

00:41:44.000 And so it was always really frustrating for me

00:41:46.440 when people are saying that because I exist,

00:41:49.260 which means other gay people like me must exist,

00:41:51.940 which means this isn't a stereotype.

00:41:54.080 This is just a different type of gay person.

00:41:56.640 And there's actually a majority of gay representation

00:41:58.900 is not stereotypical.

00:42:00.580 A lot of the times it's very straight passing

00:42:02.400 and very masculine or just not talking about

00:42:05.100 the femininity within gay men.

00:42:07.000 And so I remember when my,

00:42:08.680 one of the first gay representation moments

00:42:10.640 I ever remember seeing on TV was with Kurt on Glee.

00:42:14.860 when we saw Chris Colfer. And I remember as a kid, seeing him on screen and feeling a deep

00:42:24.420 connection to what he was doing, because I felt like, oh, this is somebody who sounds like a

00:42:31.100 woman and has super feminine tendencies. And no facial hair. Yeah, hairless. And I just remember

00:42:39.840 identifying with that so much but then the temperature around me of straight people and

00:42:45.240 gay people was that what he was doing was annoying annoying offensive a stereotype meant to make

00:42:53.460 people laugh and so my formative gay years were like don't be that don't be that thing that brought

00:43:00.160 you so much joy and you related to and so my frustration a lot of times with gay men and

00:43:06.980 masculinity is like, I don't care that you're masculine. I think it's great, actually. And I

00:43:11.640 think sometimes masculinity in gay men is seen as like, you're just putting that on in the same way

00:43:16.660 they're saying I'm putting on femininity. But I do genuinely think there is space to be held for

00:43:22.400 men who like masculinity. The problem comes when it is because you're ashamed of femininity and

00:43:28.600 being associated with femininity. These gay men who see something like Marco, or see something

00:43:34.680 like Kurt. And they're like, I hate that this exists. Because now when people think of gay

00:43:39.340 people, they're going to associate me with that. And I find that so sad, both for people like me,

00:43:46.100 but also for them that like, you so desperately are hurt by this idea that you don't fit into a

00:43:53.060 whatever word you want to use. I mean, people use heteronormative, but I know that is such a

00:43:56.920 buzzy word. Yeah, you just don't fit into what you consider appropriate because of the people

00:44:02.140 around you and you're deeply ashamed to be even a little bit associated with anything that

00:44:06.740 challenges that and that's so sad to me I mean I remember when I first encountered gay men who

00:44:12.520 would say like oh I'm gay but I'm not like in the scene they're like I don't really go to pride

00:44:16.860 because I'm not like that kind of gay I remember thinking yeah and I'm like what scene are you not

00:44:20.940 in because like you're in it I know you suck dick like I know you're in it yeah I was like you are

00:44:27.240 in the scene whether you want to or not and if you need to go process that and mourn that absolutely

00:44:31.580 go do that but don't meet don't like sour our experience of it because of that and also it's

00:44:37.120 like I just remember men would say that and I'd be like and you're proud of that I mean they would

00:44:40.620 say it was such like an idea of like oh but I'm like passably fine and I'm like I disagree because

00:44:47.640 when it comes to time for these straight people to decide who gets to do what they're not going

00:44:51.740 to protect you they're not it kills me because it follows a lot of the same thinking I have towards

00:44:58.180 I mean, this is sort of not a new conversation, but a conversation I feel has become more

00:45:02.340 gay people have just become more aware of, which is the idea of like transmedicalism

00:45:05.620 or like trans people and non-binary people having issues of like what's considered trans.

00:45:10.160 And that's like a whole conversation for a whole other day.

00:45:12.500 You want to give like the two sentence summary of what transmedicalism means?

00:45:18.160 Sort of.

00:45:18.720 I mean, I might botch this a little bit.

00:45:20.180 It's sort of the idea that if you are not medically transitioning, whether that's through

00:45:24.480 hormones or surgery, that you are not under the trans umbrella.

00:45:27.260 and so like a lot of the argument comes from sometimes older trans women who feel like space

00:45:33.060 is being invaded by non-binary people who call themselves trans non-binary extremely nuanced

00:45:38.360 issue with amazing things to be said and talked about that completely gets lost through instagram

00:45:43.300 i find but the thing that i particularly am always frustrated about is when the and i feel this way

00:45:50.800 about this sort of log cabin gaze but it's this idea that there is some sort of acceptable or

00:45:57.460 appeasing idea of what it means to be a gay person a lesbian a bisexual person a trans person whatever

00:46:02.680 there's this version of that that is like oh if i'm that and i'm good then no one's gonna i'm not

00:46:09.540 gonna face any sort of prejudice or opposition they're not gonna come for me right the problem

00:46:14.720 is that conservative people do not differentiate no if you are a straight man wearing nail polish

00:46:22.000 and pearls they will associate you with us and so to me it's so frustrating because i'm like yes

00:46:27.020 as a community we should be able to have conversations and not have it feel like

00:46:30.500 all or nothing like we should be able to kind of disagree for a minute while we find a way to agree

00:46:34.700 but what's frustrating is when it comes to the way that we advocate for ourselves and the way

00:46:41.200 that we stand politically, it's so frustrating because I'm like, these people, the conservative

00:46:46.220 people, the Republicans do not care if you are a certain type of gay. They don't understand what

00:46:52.240 you mean when you say I'm not in the scene. They don't care that you weren't at Pride. They don't

00:46:55.760 care that you don't watch Drag Race. They don't care that you identify and associate as a straight

00:47:00.900 woman, as a trans woman. They will see you the exact same as the other queer person next to you

00:47:05.800 when it comes to time to take away your rights, to take away your access to medical attention,

00:47:10.820 to gender affirming things, like all of it, to housing, to your job. I mean, all of the things

00:47:16.240 that you see trans people, people who are like, maybe more obviously tied to their identity,

00:47:22.680 we have to advocate for ourselves. And so it makes sense why a lot of the times queer women,

00:47:27.880 queer people of color at the front of things, because they don't have the option. But it's so

00:47:31.660 refreshing, because when it comes down to when those things get taken away, it will affect

00:47:35.120 everybody. It doesn't just affect the people that you don't like to associate with.

00:47:38.760 Yeah, I was I was going through Twitter the other day and there was this video making the rounds on right wing Twitter. And I, you know, saw that it had thousands and thousands of comments and quote tweets and all of this stuff. And I was like, wow, this must be pretty controversial.

00:47:55.260 And it was just a video of a masculine looking white cisgender gay couple in a hospital picking up the baby that they had adopted.

00:48:05.540 It wasn't even through surrogacy.

00:48:06.700 It was just the baby that they adopted.

00:48:08.160 And there were 10,000 quote tweets from people being like, this is wrong.

00:48:14.300 And this is like the collapse of society.

00:48:16.520 And so whenever I see these, you know, and they're often white, cis, gay men who are like advocating for Republicans and advocating for right wing policies, because they're like, you know, if I throw the rest of my community under the bus, then I will, you know, reign superior in the end. And I'm like, this is how they feel about you having children. Like, just like what you were saying, these people don't differentiate.

00:48:40.740 Caitlyn Jenner to these people is the exact same person as Dylan Mulvaney. And what I don't think

00:48:46.660 people like Caitlyn realize is that when it comes time for gender affirming care to be stripped

00:48:51.300 away from people, it will affect her as well. Like I just get really aggravated with people who

00:48:57.060 want to distance themselves from their identity. And I get it. It's scary being queer and having

00:49:01.800 this realization that there is an entire force of people who oppose you before they even meet you

00:49:06.820 or hear about you. But at the end of the day, it's like, you're trying to get brownie points

00:49:11.420 that will not be recognized. Like, they're not going to be like, we're going to start to remove

00:49:16.720 all of the legal documents around gay marriage. And actually, we're going to make it so that you

00:49:20.620 can't even be publicly queer at all. Because that's now a crime. They're not going to suddenly

00:49:25.580 be like, that one's good, though. Totally. You're still a threat to whatever sort of

00:49:31.120 homeostasis that they're trying to protect in some way. And I get so aggravated by that, too,

00:49:35.500 because i feel like a lot of the time those gay people and those trans people that feel that way

00:49:40.800 and advocate against themselves a lot of the uh sound bites i hear are like well i'm queer but i

00:49:48.060 don't make it my identity and that's always crazy to me because i'm like it is your identity though

00:49:53.940 like and also the people that you're trying to appease don't give a shit they don't how you

00:49:59.420 compartmentalize it or not they're like that's a faggot and that's it yeah also it's like listen

00:50:05.480 within a community if I say like Hell's Kitchen gays or like WeHo gays you know who I'm talking

00:50:10.060 about because we have an understanding of like oh that's that type of person right they don't have

00:50:14.660 that they're gonna see those people the same way that they see us they're gonna see the Brooklyn

00:50:18.260 gays as the Hell's Kitchen gays like they're gonna see everyone as the exact same so it's just

00:50:22.900 crazy to me and I'm like I get it for the idea of when you are somebody who is we'll use the phrase

00:50:30.980 passable in this case like a gay man who can pass as straight in some way people to judge i always

00:50:36.480 call that person people to judge that's really funny and like no hate no specific hate to be

00:50:41.580 but like yes listen be passable is great like be passable go off queen but it's it's one of those

00:50:46.600 things where it's like if you are that i understand the attraction of wanting to lay low like i get

00:50:52.760 it you're scared there is fear there but someone like me i don't have the luxury of being undercover

00:50:59.620 I don't have the luxury of being that way.

00:51:02.000 Like I can aspire to that and get to that point, but I require gender affirming care

00:51:07.740 and I require a space that I don't feel like my life is at stake.

00:51:12.480 And so of course my identity is going to be more, my outward identity is going to be more

00:51:17.200 about how I identify, but that's because I have no choice.

00:51:21.260 I'm leaving every conversation with someone perceiving me already.

00:51:25.520 So I don't know.

00:51:26.780 I used to feel really gentle about it. And I was like, well, I get it. And now I'm tired. I'm angry. I can't believe there are straight people that feel such strong hatred for queer people, specifically queer kids, let alone queer people who feel that way. That is mind-blowing to me.

00:51:48.780 I feel like my understanding of politics and debate when I was a kid, at least, was that a lot of the issues made sense to me as like, oh, right, when you're talking about things about like development and city structures and taxes and like those kind of issues, it makes sense that people would have differing opinions.

00:52:07.360 Like, so you debate and maybe you disagree and maybe that's fine. Right. It's crazy now because it's like it's a lot harder for me to be gentle about it when the talking points are like, huh, should we strip away health care? Not just health care, but the legal right to even consume health care from adults who have been on it for years and cannot get off of it without suffering health consequences.

00:52:30.380 Like when that becomes the discussion, it, it is harder to be gentle about it for me because it does not affect somebody at all to me. I mean, whether or not I take my hormones every week has nothing to do with anything somebody in Texas is doing. I mean, it really has no impact. I listen, if somebody in public is transphobic and decides not to respect my pronouns, not to respect anything that I've asked for, as much as that's upsetting, that's their choice. If they want to say that sort of thing, fine, whatever.

00:52:59.840 but to then step further and to try to take away my ability to do what i'm doing is where i get

00:53:04.680 like okay you're not being gentle about this so like why am i trying to take this high road

00:53:09.460 when it's like you're stepping onto my road like i don't care and for me it's tough because like

00:53:15.820 growing up i mean my family like super involved in the church the most involved in the church you

00:53:20.060 could be and so i have always had a soft spot for like specifically uh conservative christians

00:53:27.240 because to me, I saw that as like the people I grew up with and some of them still identify that

00:53:31.440 way. And so I've always had this sort of devil's advocate approach to like, well, well, well. And

00:53:37.260 now I'm just getting angry because there's nothing I've ever done with my career, with my life,

00:53:42.820 with my politics that has ever tried to remove the ability for somebody to withhold practice

00:53:48.020 and publicly display their religious faith or their religious practices. I don't want that for

00:53:54.720 I don't want to convert people. I like, I don't care. I want you to be able to enter a conversation

00:54:00.540 and say, Hey, I'm going to pray before I eat, or I'm going to, you know, make a decision based off

00:54:04.300 of this. I might not agree with it, but I want you to be able to do it. What's then frustrating is

00:54:09.820 that when I want to do my thing and I want to be able to talk about it at dinner, then it's like,

00:54:15.060 well, I have to stop that. Like, that's where I get frustrated because I want to take this sort

00:54:20.300 of high road of like, no, I can be respectful of your feelings and your desires and what makes your

00:54:25.820 life feel purposeful, but you're not allowing me to do that. In fact, you're not just not allowing

00:54:30.820 it. You are actively trying to stop me from doing it and punish me for doing it, which is where I

00:54:36.840 get, you know, a little less gentle. Right. I feel like I've, I feel like over the last year

00:54:44.160 or two i've been pushed further left and i'll admit that yeah um only because of my frustration

00:54:51.840 with people in like the center you know centrists yeah who this is like one of the political

00:54:59.060 ideologies i've kind of like lost my patience with more than any other which is people who

00:55:04.540 stand in the center kind of opinionless and the question is like should transgender people have

00:55:11.660 human rights and then like you know we're over here being like yeah and then people across the

00:55:16.940 aisle are like no and then the person in the center who like to me just in my head becomes

00:55:21.880 the most annoying person of them all is like well that's great let's all hold hands and i'm like

00:55:26.020 fuck you you know right there's something to be addressed here that we like can't not talk about

00:55:31.840 totally i i was i was at a party you know about a month ago and oh god there was this straight

00:55:39.700 guy wealthy straight guy i'm so sorry there was this wealthy cisgender straight guy and there

00:55:48.780 were others wealthy by the way i don't want anyone to ever think that i'm like so bogged up in

00:55:53.660 identity politics that like i hate all cisgender straight men like i think some of them are lovely

00:55:58.240 but this one happened to be an idiot and if they're single and bored and progressive in

00:56:02.800 their way that they think please slide into my dms yeah exactly we have a we have we have a

00:56:09.320 fresh coming for you i'm advocating for the straight men who are trying to make a change

00:56:14.120 yeah because i'm trying to make a change too right here in my heart they need advocates someone has

00:56:19.840 to do it but i was at this party and you know we're all having drinks and whatever and this guy

00:56:25.340 you know we kind of started talking about politics in a small group and this guy who was british too

00:56:31.780 so the accent made it sound even kind of a little more like pompous sorry to the brits but he was

00:56:36.620 kind of going on about like you know i just think the biggest problem nowadays is that we don't

00:56:42.040 really sit down and listen to each other and i was like i don't think that's the biggest problem

00:56:46.060 personally like i don't i'm seated to listen somebody else is still standing you know like

00:56:52.680 trigger warning about like self-harm and um and and suicide but like i think actually arguably a

00:56:59.520 bigger problem than like us not being all able to sit around a dinner table are like transgender

00:57:04.360 kids in texas who are like committing suicide when they're 14 yeah like i don't know i feel

00:57:09.960 like that's a bigger problem than like the fact that we all can't like sing kumbaya together

00:57:14.140 yeah and the problem is like the hypocrisy and and somebody wanting to be so vocal politically

00:57:22.220 about protecting children and then like when there is a child who is threatening to hurt

00:57:26.940 themselves or displaying behavior of hurting themselves it's like well we didn't mean that

00:57:31.020 kind of children right exactly like what what which children specifically like tell me you know

00:57:37.380 well and I will say like it's such a weird thing to talk about because trans people and kids in

00:57:44.600 general are like such a it's crazy that you can't use those phrases in the same sentence without

00:57:49.420 people getting like about it I think about the position that sometimes queer adults are put into

00:57:55.220 where they have to help children who are not in a safe space to be queer. And I think there's this

00:58:01.120 idea from conservative people that gay people are preying upon these young kids who are escaping

00:58:07.780 home, right? And they're trying to influence them some way. And I just can't understand the logic

00:58:13.340 behind that because for me, I mean, I moved away from home when I was 14 and I didn't move away

00:58:18.700 because there was a queer person telling me that something was cooler on the other side or there

00:58:22.320 was greener grass over there. It was because the people that I had who were supposed to take care

00:58:26.980 of me did not. And so I think because I was queer, they did not. And so I think about the fact that

00:58:33.880 queer people don't want to take care of children. They don't want to protect your children. They

00:58:38.360 want nothing to do with your children. But when you are harming your own child, pushing your own

00:58:43.800 child away from safety, that child is going to look for shelter. And I just think that that's

00:58:49.680 the position that queer people have to take in that instance. And it's an, it's a obligatory

00:58:56.000 mentorship that like queer people do not want to partake in. I mean, I have no interest in being

00:59:01.820 a role model and being like helpful to young queer people in that way. Like that's, that's not

00:59:08.720 something I naturally feel drawn to, but it's a position that I've had to fall into in the past.

00:59:14.300 And I'm grateful to have been impactful for somebody, specifically somebody going through

00:59:19.300 pushback or homophobia, transphobia, whatever. But I don't aspire to that. There are people who

00:59:25.880 are social workers and work with children who like have dedicated their lives to that. I don't

00:59:30.640 want to have to do that. But when I have a queer kid in my DMs who's saying they're on the verge

00:59:37.360 of doing a very harmful thing to themselves because of the adults around them who are not

00:59:42.440 taking care of them, you have now forced queer people to care about children in a way that

00:59:47.160 they're not they're not trying to it's like that meme uh more of like a political cartoon where

00:59:53.680 it's there's like a kid and two adults on either side of him and the the one that's labeled

00:59:58.460 conservative christian parent like pushes the kid and then the queer adult like catches them before

01:00:04.100 they fall and then the conservatives one is like how are you how dare you groom my child right and

01:00:10.100 it's like you push them out of the nest yeah it was like your kid if your kid was feeling safe

01:00:14.900 to express their queerness at home, they would not have to look for people like me. They would

01:00:19.440 not have to find a community. I mean, I think about the whole concept of queer people. I mean,

01:00:24.700 it's such a classic trove of like a small town queer person moving to a big city, but it's,

01:00:29.180 I wouldn't have been attracted to Los Angeles if it wasn't for the fact that I just knew Texas was

01:00:33.680 not for me. I knew my hometown was not going to be for me and I needed to move somewhere queer

01:00:39.320 accepting to survive. And I was, you know, 12, 13, coming to that conclusion and 14 making that

01:00:45.760 decision. And so I just I don't know, it's so confusing to me and hypocritical, because

01:00:51.760 there's such this push of protecting kids. And I'm like, no one protected me in that situation.

01:00:56.420 In fact, the fact that I was queer was what made them put me in harm's way.

01:01:01.220 Yeah, I don't know. I get that's like a soapbox. I find myself getting on lately, because

01:01:06.300 as a trans woman, I see my community and my identity being associated with being harmful

01:01:13.160 to children. And that just like cannot be further from the experience of so many trans women's

01:01:17.400 childhoods. Before we wrap up, I wanted to ask, so in Glamorous, you play Marco, who is, as I said,

01:01:27.180 He's early 20s, kind of confidence-confused little young gay man.

01:01:36.380 But notably, at least as portrayed in the first season, a gay man until the end.

01:01:42.900 And you are not.

01:01:45.340 You at one point identified as such and no longer do.

01:01:48.320 And I wanted to ask about the experience of playing that role as a trans woman,

01:01:55.520 watching that role as a trans woman so in the essay that you wrote for time which is also

01:02:03.460 kind of your official coming out as trans piece you wrote one day the creator of the show called

01:02:09.680 to discuss marco's character arc throughout the season i met him at a bar and i told him about my

01:02:14.300 transition i knew this was different from the original plan and i felt we could include this

01:02:18.420 journey in the show by having marco transition alongside my transition in real life i braced

01:02:23.140 myself for the worst, but instead we bonded over our love for Veneno and expressed how we both

01:02:27.240 wanted to make something with that kind of importance. We scheduled a dinner with the

01:02:31.020 executive producer and the three of us made a plan to present the idea to Netflix. These two men

01:02:35.320 changed my life the moment they heard my story and promised to protect and support me in telling it

01:02:39.260 the way that I wanted to. My question is at what point while you were creating the show, like did

01:02:43.860 you start transitioning before you ever started filming? Yeah, so the timeline of it is I got

01:02:50.980 attached to the show in the beginning of 2019 and we filmed a pilot for a different network at the

01:02:56.040 time. And that version of Marco was just gay boy who was very feminine. Which is also how you knew

01:03:03.820 yourself at the time. Yes, that was how I identified at the time. And at the time, that was something I

01:03:09.640 was very, I don't want to say privately identifying as that, but in my career, I didn't really exhibit

01:03:14.220 that because there was no opportunity for that. And so I had sort of just made peace with like,

01:03:20.680 oh I'll probably never get to do that and express myself in that way in my career as a feminine gay

01:03:26.680 boy yeah as a feminine gay boy and then the show came around and that felt really validating

01:03:30.660 because I was like oh there's space for this and then the show didn't get picked up at that

01:03:34.700 network which then sent me back into like okay they don't like this this is you know noted and

01:03:41.860 then the show didn't get picked up the you know some time went by Netflix acquired the rights to

01:03:47.140 the show at the beginning of 2020. And they were interested in keeping me attached. And of course,

01:03:51.520 I was like, yeah, this is, you know, this is my one that got away, I'll do anything to stay on

01:03:55.520 the show. And so the show got put into development, and they were writing all the scripts for it.

01:04:00.880 And at the end of 2020 is when I had my trans awakening with Veneno. And I was like, okay,

01:04:06.500 like, I'll figure this out. I started socially transitioning at that time, and just taking the

01:04:10.760 baby steps to transition. And then, you know, another year went by, like nothing happened with

01:04:16.120 glamorous so I was like this show probably will never get made I just I had made peace with like

01:04:21.080 it probably will just like fizzle and then one day someone will ask me about it and I'll say oh I

01:04:24.580 don't know I never heard anything else and then I got a call at the beginning of 2022 that Netflix

01:04:34.520 had officially ordered the show and they wanted me to come on and they were having me sign a contract

01:04:39.860 to sign on to the show and I immediately was like filled with joy because I felt like finally this

01:04:45.800 thing that I've waited for I've worked for like it just felt like a full circle moment and then

01:04:50.560 that joy was immediately met with stress because I realized the character was written for a gay boy

01:04:56.400 and that just like wasn't at that point I'd been socially transitioning for a year I mean my hair

01:05:00.980 was like super long and like all my friends knew me as a trans woman and I was like about to come

01:05:06.420 out to my family like there was just so much going on right and then I remember I got sent the 10

01:05:14.180 scripts and I read through them and they were amazing I mean so much of what is in the final

01:05:18.980 episodes was in those 10 scripts but I just started to panic because I realized you know if

01:05:23.980 this show is a success which you obviously hope it is when you make tv I have to play a boy for

01:05:29.540 you know you know in contract form six years if we're you know successful in that way and so I

01:05:36.000 just started to panic and I like thought about it for a month I was like pacing around and like it

01:05:41.160 was just like such a stressful time because everyone around me was so excited for me and

01:05:45.040 I was so stressed and then you were like yeah I got enough I got like a starring role in a Netflix

01:05:48.680 TV show but yeah that I filmed three years ago and like they loved me so much they were like

01:05:55.400 we're gonna hold on to you and recast the rest of the show like that was so many things are unheard

01:06:00.760 of in that way and and this show is like I I just love the script so much I identify with it so much

01:06:06.180 I grew up with it and I I helped so much with the development of Marco that I was like I can't not

01:06:10.200 play this and then so when jordan the creator of the show called me and wanted to go over i believe

01:06:16.040 what he said was like i want to go over the character arc for the show i've noticed you're

01:06:19.320 like you've you've been a little different like you're a little more feminine here and there like

01:06:22.920 he had noticed some changes so he was like if you want to include any topics about that that'd be

01:06:28.380 great like i'm here to support that which we had done multiple times over the last two years before

01:06:32.940 that with like stupid shit like references and stuff and i was like this is my in if i was ever

01:06:39.700 going to talk about it so i remember i i went to ackbar and silver lake with him and we talked

01:06:46.780 about it and he immediately was like whatever you need i will rewrite i will support this like this

01:06:53.620 is so impactful this is so special and i thought i was gonna get fired um because i had lost so

01:07:00.500 many opportunities for being like too gay before so i was like being trans is like definitely gonna

01:07:05.380 to ruin this. Right. Right. So I was like shocked that he was down for it. And then we had to bring

01:07:10.480 it to the executive producer, Cameron Tarlow. I was so nervous that what I would hear from either

01:07:15.100 Netflix or from the producer, from the creator was this sort of gentle way of saying like,

01:07:20.180 we support you. We think you should do what's best for you. We think that you might not be the

01:07:26.200 best fit for the role anymore. Like I was prepared for that speech. You're visible. We see you. We

01:07:31.800 love you and you're fired right and i also like understood where that logic would come from because

01:07:37.280 like it is a boy character so i was like prepared for that and instead was met with so much support

01:07:42.720 from the creator and the executive producer and so they put together with obviously my consent and

01:07:47.420 input a pitch to take to netflix to have the 10th episode changed to include a transition storyline

01:07:54.520 and also to like allow me to step in with jordan and rewrite some of the earlier episodes to make

01:08:00.540 it makes sense yeah and so they came back and their only their only negative thing when i got

01:08:07.460 the call that they had approved it was they were like we love this we we want miss benny to feel

01:08:13.080 safe so if miss benny wants to do this like well we will absolutely happily support the story and

01:08:18.720 stand by it our only concern is will her voice change while filming which was like such a it

01:08:28.380 Well, no, because like, here's the funny thing.

01:08:30.580 It was such like a grounding moment of like, right, like cis people don't understand how

01:08:36.880 hormones work.

01:08:38.140 Like they don't understand.

01:08:39.040 I mean, here I am.

01:08:39.880 Like, I clearly don't understand how hormones work.

01:08:42.700 For trans women post puberty, like hormones do nothing to your vocal cords.

01:08:46.400 So like that's all through just training and vocal lessons.

01:08:50.400 But it was just so funny because like their understanding of it was so little and their

01:08:55.720 support was so big that their only concern was that I would be so good at being trans that I

01:09:02.520 would just start passing by the end of the season like and that is so that was so validating to me

01:09:09.260 of like oh I thought I was gonna get fired yeah and instead they were like so ready to support me

01:09:17.060 even if that meant they didn't know they were just like you just can't be like a cis woman by the

01:09:21.620 time we finish filming yeah they were like the audience needs to know and of course like I will

01:09:25.700 say like I showed up to film kind of looking like how I look now like I had longer hair I was super

01:09:31.700 feminine and there was a long development process of like how to detrans Marco a little to make it

01:09:39.800 make sense that it was a journey Marco was going on was it hard just for filming purposes and

01:09:45.900 creating the show to visually go back to like boy mode yeah I mean sort of detransitioning for the

01:09:51.960 show was very uh dysphoric uh I remember when I I mean and I want to say this was never dysphoric

01:09:58.420 because of Netflix they would have put me on camera had I looked like this or not you know

01:10:02.160 they were just creatively working with me on how to make it make sense for the audience and so

01:10:06.700 we had like two weeks of camera tests where we cut my hair like shorter and shorter lengths

01:10:12.180 and at each step they were like we'll only go if you at any point are like this is too short

01:10:17.300 then we'll stop I think at one point they even made a wig of like a shortcut so that I could

01:10:23.180 do that before I cut it and then if we hate it we don't have to even try it which I don't believe

01:10:28.520 we yeah we didn't end up cutting it that short so it was great but it was dysphoric but the sound

01:10:33.060 bite that I gave them and what I've said maybe once before publicly is like I played the role

01:10:38.380 of a gay boy for 23 years up to that point I can do it again for six more months especially when I

01:10:44.380 know the end result is going to be a sort of timestamped journey of transitioning. I also knew

01:10:49.720 that like, for me, I had so much fear about the initial steps of transitioning, the initial moment

01:10:57.280 of transitioning. And that's because I hadn't really seen it very much. And so I knew that if

01:11:02.340 I was feeling this fear and this worry, that means that somebody else at the beginning of their

01:11:06.700 transition is feeling that way. So if I can timestamp that in an authentic way that'll live

01:11:11.820 on forever then it has impact and then it feels like i'm using some of that dysphoria in a creative

01:11:17.940 way that it feels cathartic um and i will say like i've i've held this opinion for a while

01:11:24.860 but watching veneno was the first time it made sense then doing it on glamorous was the second

01:11:30.320 time it made sense but there's this conversation around who can play a trans character on tv or

01:11:36.520 movies and if cis people should be able to do it whatever that's a very again nuanced issue to talk

01:11:41.460 about but an interesting point i want to bring is that the the process that you would put a cis

01:11:47.560 actor through to transition or play a trans person is the exact same just like visually as to make a

01:11:55.180 trans person play themselves pre-transition where i think about you know if you were to put jared

01:12:02.200 leto or eddie redmayne into a trans woman's character you're gonna have to feminize them

01:12:09.320 and you're going to have to, you know, visually transform them with prosthetics and makeup and

01:12:14.040 hair and wigs and whatever. To do that process for a trans person is the exact same. I mean,

01:12:19.080 if you have your breasts, you're going to have to bind them. If you have, you know,

01:12:22.660 very feminine features, you're going to have to masculinize them. Like the process is the same.

01:12:26.860 The difference is that the person who's portraying that character has a better understanding of

01:12:32.980 dysphoria, has a better understanding of what that feels like. You're getting like a more

01:12:37.580 grounded portrayal. And also like on a community level, it helps eradicate this idea that transness

01:12:44.580 is costume. Because then when Marco or any other trans character reaches their transition,

01:12:53.980 that's not the prosthetic part. And that's not the costume effects part. That's actually the

01:12:59.400 human part. And Veneno did that really beautifully with the lead character, where she is a trans

01:13:07.400 woman who for the first episode de-transitioned to portray herself and it just made so much sense

01:13:15.020 to me that I was like oh this is the solution that people are looking for like you can tell

01:13:19.200 a trans story and show the pre-transition that you want to show you you would just do the same

01:13:24.740 exact thing but the opposite if that makes sense no it does make total sense to answer your question

01:13:30.460 I mean it was dysphoric it was weird it was uncomfortable at times but I knew it was for

01:13:35.400 a character i knew that it was creatively fulfilling and i knew that i was protected i mean

01:13:40.560 i was never misgendered as a man in filming it there was a very clear understanding on the set

01:13:48.200 with the crew with the producers with the cast that miss benny is not he him the character right

01:13:54.640 now is so when you're referring to marco and when i'm like acting like obviously use he him pronouns

01:14:00.160 But once we're talking about me, then it would change.

01:14:05.100 And so that was really sweet.

01:14:06.840 And I was closeted as a trans woman at the time.

01:14:09.340 So Netflix was even really considered about how we shot the trans scenes at the end.

01:14:15.400 As far as privacy?

01:14:16.800 Yeah, for my privacy.

01:14:17.720 Because, you know, I don't know where those pages get sent.

01:14:20.040 And I didn't want, I don't know.

01:14:21.680 I wanted the coming out moment for me to feel very much something I had control over.

01:14:25.460 And so they let me sort of dictate how that went.

01:14:28.120 And so on those shooting days, everybody on the crew and on the cast got sent sort of like a redacted version of the script that didn't have the trans ending.

01:14:38.440 And the only people that had the trans ending was the director, me and the writers.

01:14:43.920 And it was a closed set.

01:14:46.020 The pages were never digital.

01:14:47.620 They were always just in person.

01:14:49.440 And so like a lot of people didn't even know that we shot that for the show because they were really great about keeping it sort of protected for me.

01:14:57.240 I will wrap all that up by saying like, as an actor who's been acting for a while as a queer person, the experience I had making Glamorous and the way that I felt protected and taken care of did not exist even five years ago.

01:15:11.200 And so that was all so healing for me and so impactful for me because we tried to make this show five years ago and we were told it wasn't time and it was really painful in that moment.

01:15:25.160 And so the fact that things have changed so much that I could show a transition storyline on TV and have it not only be allowed, but also like celebrated was really special.

01:15:37.080 Yeah. And we're all grateful to be the beneficiaries of the fact that it that it did end up happening.

01:15:43.660 And I'm so proud of you. And from my six story walk up with mice and dust and grime to the television in my new apartment, I am just so proud and happy to see you shine not only as an actor, but also as the woman that you are.

01:16:03.920 Oh, thank you.

01:16:04.900 Before we wrap, you're early in your transition. There are so many people who are right now in this moment, especially as, you know, or not even just their transition gender wise, but also people coming out as gay, people coming out as trans, people coming out as non-binary, people who have come out as gay, but who are coming into themselves as, you know, feminine and gay or any number of journeys that people are taking to be themselves in their career.

01:16:34.900 queer identity right now while the world and the country is just you know full speed ahead with

01:16:42.440 with homophobia and transphobia and you took time you took a couple years totally away from social

01:16:49.480 media and all of that before you came back you know in this very forceful way that you are right

01:16:55.440 now having spent that time alone to transition to to create this body of work both professionally

01:17:03.480 And, you know, as yourself and to create yourself and to become yourself, what what would be parting words that you would give to people who are, you know, at the beginning of their journey, who are considering coming out, who are, you know, not sure where their future is in this country?

01:17:20.760 What keeps you going?

01:17:21.820 Well, I would say there's two things that I've tried to remind myself right now. And I am very early in my transition. So this is definitely coming from the perspective of things I'm learning presently. And that's, first of all, to have patience during this, because, you know, there's so much excitement about sort of finding who you are.

01:17:45.440 I mean, I remember when I was coming out as gay, I felt the same way and I threw myself

01:17:49.480 into situations I didn't necessarily need to throw myself into right away.

01:17:52.900 But with transitioning, especially, I mean, you have to think about the fact that you

01:17:56.760 are at the infancy and puberty of a new chapter of your life.

01:18:01.280 And so it's amazing.

01:18:02.920 Every step is so validating and every step is so euphoric, but they are steps.

01:18:09.000 And so to be patient with yourself, I mean, I know we all want to, I still, even when

01:18:13.980 When I was a kid, I prayed I'd wake up as a girl.

01:18:15.580 And as an adult, I pray I wake up and changes happen.

01:18:19.440 But you kind of have to just be patient and realize that your transition is not an end

01:18:24.440 goal.

01:18:25.000 It is a process.

01:18:27.500 You're actively in your transition right now.

01:18:30.100 And so patience for yourself, that applies to queer people as well in general.

01:18:34.640 Like figuring out who you are as a queer person, especially when you were not able to ever

01:18:39.340 be sort of a clumsy queer kid is important because you're relearning everything. And then

01:18:47.280 the other thing I would say is really important to me has been to be protective of myself and my

01:18:56.100 identity, specifically my transition. And that can mean so many different things that can mean

01:19:01.400 be protective by being loud and like physically protecting yourself and like advocating for

01:19:08.540 yourself and being very vocal and visible. I mean, that's such a way of protecting yourself

01:19:13.680 that like, I mean, Matt, you do that so well for yourself and for so many people. And so

01:19:18.160 that's a very powerful way to protect yourself. But there are other times where I've had to do

01:19:23.820 this. I'm sure Matt, you've had to do this, but everyone's had to do this where you protect

01:19:27.300 yourself by removing yourself from confrontation and from visibility to sort of recharge.

01:19:34.720 because there are times where I feel fierce and fabulous

01:19:39.300 and like I can be at the front lines.

01:19:40.820 And there are times when I feel super defeated

01:19:42.780 and I feel super low.

01:19:44.280 And sometimes my dysphoria alone

01:19:46.480 will push me into those days.

01:19:48.460 I mean, on those days,

01:19:49.780 it's hard to even consider showing up for myself.

01:19:53.720 So in those moments,

01:19:55.120 the form of protection comes in taking a step back.

01:19:58.800 If that's self-care to you can mean anything for me,

01:20:01.720 it's playing RuneScape and like not having to look at myself in a mirror for a day and like

01:20:08.060 getting ice cream down the street and a hamburger, because that's my new comfort meal for some

01:20:12.560 reason. I don't know why maybe it's hormones, but for so many reasons, it's important to protect

01:20:17.540 yourself. And that can mean so many things. And so figure out what that means to you in each

01:20:21.880 present moment and stick to it because you can't advocate for yourself if your, if your battery's

01:20:27.880 at MD. So patience and protection. And I'm Miss Benny, and this has been gender.

01:20:37.100 Well, Miss Benny, thank you so much for joining us today. Where can people find you? Where can

01:20:43.580 people support you? Oh, goodness. People can find me all over social media at Miss Benny.

01:20:49.140 I'm on TikTok as I hate Miss Benny, which I know I just talked about self-love. I know that sounds

01:20:54.900 contradictory but it's a reference to like the early 2000s when websites would pop up of like

01:20:58.880 i hate justintimberlake.com it's it's loving i promise but yeah i'm on tiktok now i've been

01:21:03.440 having a really good time over there not stirring up anything um and yeah you can watch glamorous

01:21:10.680 on netflix right now it's i'm super grateful for all of the love people have part out on the show

01:21:14.700 it takes a lot to get a queer show like this made and so anybody who's posted about the show

01:21:20.000 shared it to their friends, finished the show, watched it again. We see you. We love you. And

01:21:25.300 we're so grateful for you. And thank you so much, Matt, for having me. I mean, it's so crazy to think

01:21:30.500 we've both blossomed in such fabulous ways. And it's been such a joy to watch the reach and the

01:21:38.700 impact that you have had. I mean, it's just so inspiring and wild. Well, thank you. And I don't

01:21:46.640 like to think about it because then I'll have a panic attack so yeah I just keep making my little

01:21:51.140 internet posts and I uh and I close my laptop after and and uh and stare at the wall it's smart

01:21:56.460 so um thank you thank you thank you everyone for joining us today I hope you enjoyed it if you did

01:22:04.260 feel free to share it with your friend with your mom with your cousin who's not transphobic but

01:22:10.460 just you know has has some questions maybe they'll give it a listen and um you can follow us on

01:22:16.000 whatever app you get your podcasts on would mean a ton if you rate the podcast that helps us a ton

01:22:21.100 it takes five seconds if you did not enjoy the episode please don't rate the podcast

01:22:25.560 and uh but um thank you so much and um until next time i love you take care and stay fruity

A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - October 03, 2023

Becoming a Woman (with Miss Benny)

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