A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - How the Right is Winning Young Men (with Taylor Lorenz)

00:00:00.000 Aye, aye, aye. We did not do it, Joe.

00:00:12.420 Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruity. I'm Matt Bernstein. Thank you for being here.

00:00:21.340 It's been a long week. During Donald Trump's acceptance speech, he allowed Dana White,

00:00:26.140 the founder of UFC Fighting, which I had to Google, to take the stage. Standing on stage

00:00:32.740 with Donald Trump's family in a room full of the campaign's most important and influential donors,

00:00:38.420 you know, Republican politicians, various billionaires, Elon Musk, Dana White thanked

00:00:44.660 the young male influencers who so effectively turned out the young male vote for Donald Trump.

00:00:50.920 I want to thank some people real quick. I want to thank the NELT boys, Aiden Ross.

00:00:56.140 Theo Vaughn, bustle with the boys, and last but not least, the mighty and powerful Joe Rogan.

00:01:04.720 And turn out the young male vote they did. According to CBS exit polls, Trump won male

00:01:11.400 voters under the age of 30 by 18 points this year, which is the same demographic that Biden won by 18

00:01:18.000 points in 2020. Who are these young men influencing other young men to the far right? What can the

00:01:25.720 left do to better reach these men? And how did an ideology about masculinity and women 0.99

00:01:31.240 once relegated to the seedy corners of 4chan creep its way into the mainstream? As always 0.91

00:01:37.820 on this show, whenever we're talking about the internet and politics, I ring up my friend and

00:01:43.780 yours, Taylor Lorenz. Taylor, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. And since you were last

00:01:50.740 here you have become an independent journalist officially yes officially taylor is such an

00:01:57.460 incredible journalist doing such great work it is not an easy thing to go out on your own as a

00:02:02.960 freelancer it's what i do as a job and takes takes balls so congratulations taylor thank you so much

00:02:09.760 i'm so happy are you excited to talk about the young men yes let's speak to the men which is

00:02:17.000 something i don't do a lot on this podcast but boys i'm speaking to you gentlemen gentlemen

00:02:22.260 and gentle thems if you would like to support the show would like more of the show would like more

00:02:26.940 of my post-election thoughts which totally understandable if you don't want to listen

00:02:31.420 to anything about the election anymore but in case you do you can get all of that on my patreon

00:02:36.320 which will also be linked in the bio you're so demure with your like thanks for having me 0.97

00:02:41.720 Whenever we do episodes together, we always end up like yelling and screaming about shit. 0.91

00:02:48.280 But at the beginning, it starts so calm. 1.00

00:02:50.120 And then I'm like, and by the way, fuck that person. 1.00

00:02:55.340 I think we'll get there quickly. 1.00

00:02:57.140 I think we'll get there quickly.

00:02:58.100 Yeah, this is a triggering subject.

00:02:59.320 The portion of the internet that has become enormous, that has enraptured the young men of America is generally referred to as the manosphere.

00:03:08.700 And this is going to be an episode about the manosphere. It's going to be an episode about the people who run it, about the young men who receive it and where they're at in life, and why we've seen this wild right-wing shift among young men in this very recent election.

00:03:24.280 It's going to be about what the left can and can't do to combat it and why. And I think before we actually explore the manosphere itself, Taylor, tell me what you think about this. I think it makes sense to start with incels.

00:03:38.260 Yeah, I agree.

00:03:39.680 Can you tell me a little about the incel movement?

00:03:42.780 This is one that I can do on my own, but I, you know.

00:03:45.860 Let's chime in and we can do it together.

00:03:47.700 Well, the incel movement stands for involuntary celibate movement.

00:03:52.320 It's sort of become its own identity almost outside of that, though.

00:03:56.060 It started with these communities of mostly young men online who felt really rejected by women and essentially felt like it was impossible for them to get sex from women or the type of connection from women that they had.

00:04:07.840 wanted. So they would gather in these communities that essentially became more and more radicalized

00:04:13.220 and misogynistic. Yeah. Incel as a term was originated in the 90s, ironically, by a queer

00:04:18.940 woman. Yes, which is very funny. It is very funny because incels are not generally associated with 1.00

00:04:26.280 lesbians today, but it really took off online in the 2010s on websites like Reddit, but also

00:04:33.480 on 4chan and 8chan, which can you explain 4chan and 8chan? Because those are websites that I

00:04:38.960 actually really can't explain. Yeah. 4chan is a message board that's

00:04:43.760 completely unmoderated. It's kind of, I mean, it was considered the front page of the internet

00:04:47.540 because throughout the aughts, it's where a lot of early internet forum users gathered.

00:04:52.500 It's kind of like an earlier version of Reddit almost. Reddit's like the much, much more sanitized

00:04:57.960 4chan. And then 8chan is actually even more extreme than 4chan. And then you have a lot of

00:05:02.880 in-cell forums now that really cropped up in the 2010s too, that are just solely dedicated

00:05:07.880 to in-cell ideology that are their own almost like offshoots of 4chan and 8chan.

00:05:13.840 And the thing, look, like we've all had points of insecurity in our lives. We've all had probably

00:05:19.400 points where we're wondering, especially, you know, when you're in middle school, high school,

00:05:23.300 like, am I sexually desirable? How do I become sexually desirable? But these young men online,

00:05:28.680 they form identities around not getting laid for reasons that they believe are entirely out of

00:05:35.160 control like their height their voice their head shape the thing is if it stopped there then it's

00:05:41.400 like okay you're just a you know very insecure teenage boy lots of teenage people are but they

00:05:47.680 blame women for all of their problems and that's i think what is the hallmark of the incel ideology

00:05:53.420 is that the reason you can't be happy as a young man is because women are doing this to you.

00:05:59.060 They're also against like gay people generally too and the LGBTQ world, but it's very like 0.98

00:06:04.780 traditional. Like they believe that sort of like every man deserves a woman. And, you know,

00:06:10.860 me not being able to have one is like against my rights as a man.

00:06:14.960 Right. There are two terms that I want to introduce here. And it's, these are really

00:06:20.120 the reasons why i wanted to start with the incel movement the red pill and the black pill taylor

00:06:24.340 would you would you like to take the red pill don't take the red pill but would you like to

00:06:29.160 explain the red pill the red pill blue pill framework is something that actually kind of

00:06:34.300 came from the matrix um which was this movie that came out 20 30 years ago ironically created by two

00:06:41.140 trans women also really what what they've really wrought a lot uh society it's just very funny i

00:06:47.880 think the matrix is kind of similar to American psycho where like a lot of men don't realize it's

00:06:52.820 almost like a parody of a certain type of thinking but the red pill blue pill thing it was this

00:06:58.080 framework in that movie where it's like do you want to take the blue pill and just live in the

00:07:02.600 matrix and go along sort of blind to the realities of the world or do you want to take the red pill

00:07:09.540 which sort of awakens you and you can escape the matrix and all of that the black pill is kind of

00:07:17.300 emerged like out of that where it's it's almost further than the red pill you're just a nihilist

00:07:23.640 you're you're sort of like a deep nihilist and nothing matters almost it's like you know if 0.70

00:07:29.180 you're blackpilled on something it's like it's a fuck it kind of energy yeah and so in incel forums 0.99

00:07:34.840 the red pill was basically like accepting the reality that like you know men are being left 1.00

00:07:39.520 behind feminism has gone too far women are never going to need you or want you and then the black 0.81

00:07:44.600 pill was like none of this can or will ever change you're hopeless you are destined for a life of

00:07:50.880 sexual and romantic loneliness and there's no reason for you to be on earth essentially this

00:07:55.880 is the belief that's you know spreading throughout the 2010s and these like reddit and 4chan and 8chan

00:08:01.360 threads and it's a small number of men who are consuming it in proportion to like all of the men

00:08:09.300 in the world but it is tens of thousands of young men and really usually boys um in these threads

00:08:16.160 and the reason why most of the world was first introduced to incels as a concept was because

00:08:22.300 they produced so many mass shooters the kind of hallmark event of early incel culture was the

00:08:30.140 isla vista shootings where elliot roger a 22 year old living in california he uploaded a video from

00:08:36.920 his car like a vlog style video on may 23rd 2014 expressing his desire to seek revenge on women

00:08:44.720 who were rejecting him he emailed a 137 page manifesto to his family detailing his gripes

00:08:51.380 with being a virgin drove to university of california santa barbara with a semi-automatic

00:08:55.840 pistol and killed six people incels for a long time on the internet were kind of a punchline

00:09:02.400 really i mean it's like miserable and in rare cases violent miserable young boys who develop

00:09:08.940 this like paranoia around their vacant sex lives and usually incels were just the butt of jokes 0.80

00:09:15.480 right like you sound like an incel you're behaving like an incel they were totally jokes and also you

00:09:20.620 just saw it mocked i think people forgot what incels actually were because it just kind of

00:09:25.140 became part of pop culture it was like oh furries incels you know proanna twitter or whatever it's

00:09:32.380 like it just became another one of these sort of communities online that that became the butt of a

00:09:38.140 lot of memes and jokes and stuff throughout the second half of the 2010s but while that was

00:09:42.920 happening they were gaining ground ironically i think them becoming the joke kind of mainstreamed

00:09:50.020 them into culture in a way like ironically first and then not so yeah because it all starts

00:09:56.520 ironically with a lot of stuff right and then you also had the first trump presidency where

00:10:02.140 suddenly you had a lot of these people that were leaders in these communities feeling really

00:10:06.720 emboldened. You saw content creators sort of flirting with this type of ideology, you know,

00:10:12.200 just a lot of extremists buying into it again, because Trump's first presidency was deeply

00:10:17.580 misogynistic. Like it was a very misogynistic sort of campaign and vibe to that whole movement. So

00:10:23.460 I think incels kind of gained a toehold in the political sphere and the cultural sphere during

00:10:29.300 that time. Okay. I think it makes sense to talk about Andrew Tate right now. I think we should

00:10:33.200 talk about Andrew Tate because he's one of these people that ultimately like this soup of male

00:10:39.200 energy online, sort of male hatred bubbling up on the internet throughout the second half of the

00:10:44.320 2010s really paved the way for the explosion of these hateful male incel influencers, for lack

00:10:51.720 of a better word. And so as incels are becoming a punchline and no one's really taking them

00:10:56.620 seriously king incel emerges in the shape of andrew tate i feel like i probably don't need to

00:11:02.600 introduce andrew tate too extensively because there's a great chance that you probably know

00:11:07.140 who he is but as is the tradition on this podcast i always do like a little bit of explaining a

00:11:12.080 little bit of background because there is someone who blissfully doesn't know who andrew tate is and

00:11:16.320 i am so sorry to take that bliss away from you right now let me find i was gonna look up where

00:11:21.140 he's from where is he from there's like not a clear answer he was raised in chicago i know but

00:11:28.740 he has that weird accent though he's from i i don't know maybe he moved to the uk when he was

00:11:32.520 really young we'll get into it well it doesn't really matter honestly andrew tate is an influencer

00:11:36.800 the point is his ancestry where where has andrew tate is an influencer who emerged really i would

00:11:47.620 say in the early pandemic days, although he had been on the internet prior to that as this sort

00:11:53.020 of like the king of misogyny on the internet. He's he and his brother Tristan live these lavish

00:11:58.940 lives in Europe. He was living in Romania primarily, although I think he's originally

00:12:03.240 American. He has a very strange accent where he's kind of I would consider him the sort of

00:12:07.940 successor to Dan Blazerian. Dan Blazerian was known as the king of Instagram in the 2010s.

00:12:13.460 He's this like hyper muscular masculine guy who was always surrounded by like, you know,

00:12:19.200 10 porn stars or whatever.

00:12:21.260 Andrew Tate kind of took that on.

00:12:22.780 He started this thing called Hustlers University in 2021.

00:12:26.340 It was like to help make, you know, make you rich.

00:12:29.660 It really blended sort of like self mythology around him and his brother with like get rich

00:12:35.480 quick schemes, crypto.

00:12:37.700 He was pumping really early and basically told men, especially young men, exactly what

00:12:42.240 they want to hear, which is that women are to blame for all of your problems. The woke agenda

00:12:46.740 is against you. Women are keeping you down. Your bitch mom won't stop taking the fucking Xbox. 1.00

00:12:52.100 She doesn't deserve to have rights, like that type of stuff. And he really played to the algorithm 1.00

00:12:57.600 in a way that like much like Dan Blazerian played to the Instagram algorithm, Andrew Tate just

00:13:03.040 mastered the YouTube algorithm. He was in every single YouTube video for a while before they

00:13:08.420 banned him. And same with TikTok. I mean, he just became completely mainstream through these clips

00:13:13.540 where he's saying deeply misogynistic things. And it really spoke to incels because he gives

00:13:18.460 incels sort of like a path out of inceldom. It's like, I used to be like you kind of vibe. Like,

00:13:24.120 I, you know, I know what you're going through and look at me now. I don't respect women at all. 1.00

00:13:30.300 I sex traffic them because by the way, he was eventually indicted on sex trafficking charges. 0.86

00:13:35.080 Like, yeah, it's just like a complete disrespect for women and deep misogyny that appealed to millions of incel and incel adjacent men online.

00:13:44.100 I mean, from like the kind of creepy, dusty corners of the Internet that like all of the kind of early incel forums stayed and then to the manosphere that we have today, which is basically accessed by the majority of young men, at least in the United States.

00:13:58.840 I feel like Andrew Tate is kind of the bridge because he did appeal to all of those incels,

00:14:03.900 but he also was like the third most Googled person in 2022.

00:14:07.360 The thing with Andrew Tate is that he blew up so quickly and became so ubiquitous overnight

00:14:13.800 to so many millions of men with almost zero media scrutiny.

00:14:18.820 Parents didn't really realize how bad he was.

00:14:21.640 Like they would hear their kids watching his videos or quoting him.

00:14:25.000 but because there was no real accountability reporting on him, especially while he was

00:14:30.240 blowing up, it didn't really come until later. He was able to amass a huge amount of influence

00:14:35.360 online, sort of unchecked. I think that that was a really big part of his rise because I think there

00:14:41.260 were these other bridges. I mean, Dan Blazerian is another one, right? Where men sort of idolized

00:14:46.080 him, but he was always sort of viewed with a critical eye by the media. He wasn't producing

00:14:50.440 content that was video as well. And I think the video format that Andrew was using was just really

00:14:56.340 appealing to young people. He had that like hyper retention edited crap that's like made to appeal

00:15:00.960 to them. And it was really appealing to them again, through the lens of self-help. Like that's

00:15:05.000 what's so important to understand. Like Andrew doesn't just get his fans from being like,

00:15:09.040 fuck women, right? Like they get there very quickly, but they start to watch him because 1.00

00:15:14.120 they're like, look at this really successful, rich, cool guy with like everything that a 12

00:15:19.620 year old boy could ever want like what a life he's living right and he's telling me he's telling me

00:15:24.860 how to join hustlers university and get rich and how to do my little drop shipping crypto scheme

00:15:30.580 or how to work out or how to you know it's like there's this like a self-help aspect to it which

00:15:35.400 jordan peterson also sort of tapped into like so much of the manosphere taps into this idea of like

00:15:40.380 betterment as a man totally and this is a perfect segue into i'm just i'm for the listener who is

00:15:46.680 new to all these topics, I'm like introducing every little ingredient to the pie so we can

00:15:50.760 understand what happened with young men in this election. But this is the part where I want to

00:15:55.920 enter the male loneliness epidemic. I know, I know, we're all tired of hearing about the male

00:16:04.980 loneliness epidemic. But you have to understand, I feel, at least the narrative around the male

00:16:10.820 loneliness epidemic to understand why so many men would gravitate right because like okay andrew 1.00

00:16:17.360 tate is out here saying fuck women fuck gay people fuck trans people all of this stuff here are my 1.00

00:16:23.640 cars here's my six-pack and it's like okay yeah but what what is the essence of this that is 1.00

00:16:29.320 appealing to young boys and the male loneliness epidemic that you may have heard about maybe not

00:16:34.860 It usually references the erosion of traditional gender roles in modern society that has left young men wondering what to do now that women can get jobs and women don't need them in the same way and don't rely on them in the same way.

00:16:50.840 And we're also atomized on our phones all the time.

00:16:54.120 And these things have lended themselves to men feeling socially and financially insecure

00:16:59.560 and unsure of themselves and esoterically unsure of their position in the world or purpose

00:17:05.800 in life.

00:17:06.460 Would you say that's a good synopsis?

00:17:08.180 Yeah.

00:17:09.020 Yeah.

00:17:09.260 The entire idea of the male loneliness epidemic is it's this idea that really centers men

00:17:15.760 and men's feelings.

00:17:17.160 And again, that's not to say that young men aren't experiencing loneliness.

00:17:20.480 but we can get, I mean, I don't know how far you want to get into all this right now,

00:17:23.860 but the premise is quite a flawed premise to begin with.

00:17:27.740 I agree. I also, I have such mixed feelings about this. I do. I do. Unpopular, though it is on the

00:17:35.560 left to like, give grace to the male loneliness epidemic. I have mixed feelings about it because

00:17:42.100 on one hand, the male loneliness epidemic implies, like you said, a lack of loneliness among all

00:17:48.240 these other cohorts, right? Women's loneliness, not to mention all the other things women have to

00:17:53.080 not only worry about, but like fear on a daily basis. I'm picking my words carefully so the

00:17:58.080 leftists don't murder me. Like, don't rake me over the coals for this. But I think that I understand

00:18:03.520 as much as I can understand a heterosexual man, it makes sense to me how a young heterosexual male

00:18:10.460 whose father and grandfather grew up in a world where it meant something different to be a man

00:18:16.180 would struggle to relate you know to to the loneliness that young men are feeling now

00:18:20.720 because it's true like in previous generations no i i know i know i know i know i don't think 0.76

00:18:26.100 those men in the 1950s were lonely as fuck a lot of them were like extremely lonely right it's not 0.91

00:18:33.340 that i don't think that they were lonely it's that i think to be clear for the worse for society but 0.98

00:18:39.860 i think that there was a more defined socially constructed role around masculinity where now

00:18:46.360 there isn't and i think that that's good i just think that these people don't know how to deal

00:18:51.160 with it and i want to encourage them to deal with it and i'm not faulting like young heterosexual

00:18:58.120 men for like feeling confused about their position in the world like i'm i'm not faulting them for

00:19:04.000 that no one is just to be clear i think any person has empathy right any good person especially if

00:19:10.700 you consider yourself on the left like you have to have empathy for these young people you can't

00:19:15.240 just be like well suck it up johnny you know that's the world now it's like totally it's hard

00:19:20.140 it's it's hard to be a young person and and that's what i think is frustrating for me when we talk

00:19:25.140 about these these things of like the epidemic or whatever it's like it's it's really hard to be a

00:19:29.400 young person. And it is hard to be a young man in today because you're right. I think that there

00:19:33.780 aren't a lot of positive examples of masculinity, at least on the internet. It's very unclear kind

00:19:39.060 of like what it means to be a man. And as you mentioned, a lot of those more traditional

00:19:44.000 gender roles for good reason have been abolished, right? But then you have these young men who feel

00:19:50.180 lost and I think they do struggle, right? They do struggle to kind of make connections. I think

00:19:54.960 a much bigger problem than women is the way the patriarchy treats men for having feelings right

00:20:01.100 and exactly exactly it's like matt walsh being like if my friend said that he loved me like i'd

00:20:06.800 call him like a you know slur or something yeah i can say yeah that's that's well that's probably

00:20:12.100 why you don't have close male friendships yeah that's right i mean that's that's exactly what i

00:20:18.000 was going to follow up with which is that i don't want you to not feel lonely i'm not going to like

00:20:21.620 slap you on the wrist for having your confusion about your place in the world. But it is my

00:20:26.800 opinion that I feel very strongly about that the source of your loneliness is not women.

00:20:32.340 The source of your loneliness is not trans people or like immigrants taking jobs that you're too 0.54

00:20:36.860 young to apply for. It's capitalism and patriarchy. Okay, wow. Now, you know, I'm going to sound like

00:20:44.840 the blue haired SJW, but it's true. Like, the reason that Andrew Tate, I think, is so appealing

00:20:51.020 to all of these people is that he represents someone who has succeeded under patriarchy and

00:20:56.520 capitalism. He is the most traditionally masculine looking. He's surrounded by hot women all the time

00:21:02.660 somehow. Criminally, he is running all of these schemes and has gotten extraordinarily wealthy

00:21:09.440 at a relatively young age. And it's like, you don't want to be Andrew Tate. You want to win

00:21:16.120 against capitalism and patriarchy. And like, those are goals that I think young men share

00:21:22.960 with the rest of us. Absolutely. And I do think that there is also a unique pressure on men

00:21:28.160 because of patriarchy and capitalism, which is, by the way, I think probably worse 30 years ago,

00:21:33.120 right, to be the breadwinner to succeed and to have a job and to make money. And that's why you

00:21:38.380 see these, you know, teen boys get sucked into like these dropshipping or crypto schemes or

00:21:43.820 course e-course things it's like they are so inundated with hustle culture and the way that

00:21:52.120 that manifests is is through influencers like Andrew Tate you know amassing a huge selling

00:21:57.240 and it's it's ironically they're selling them actually just back the same conservative dream

00:22:01.740 like it's like you will work hard and then these women will be your slaves and you know you're the

00:22:07.260 master and you're the king of the household and it's just it's just sort of like new packaging

00:22:12.740 on a very regressive ideology. I also think, you know, a lot of young men, they don't know how to

00:22:19.360 talk to women. Like, you know, when you're going through puberty, it's really awkward and like

00:22:24.540 everybody's feelings get hurt. Like when you're in that time period of like middle school and high

00:22:29.480 school and you're trying to figure things out and like everything also feels so deep to you. 1.00

00:22:34.600 And you see this guy who's like succeeding and he's like, fuck these women. Sorry, I keep cursing 1.00

00:22:39.780 on a YouTube podcast. Like, you know, screw these women. I get demonetized automatically. I don't 1.00

00:22:44.420 care. Okay, good. It's like, screw these women. Like, forget these people. Like, whoever hurt

00:22:50.340 you, they're worth nothing because women are worthless and you can just collect them like 1.00

00:22:53.700 toys and you can move on. That's a very appealing, like, thing when you're hurting inside or you feel 1.00

00:22:58.780 like some girl did just break your heart or stood you up for a date in ninth grade. Totally. And,

00:23:03.960 you know, there are men, like, who aren't middle and high school age who, like,

00:23:08.960 continue to internalize all of this you know this kind of like male loneliness thing and it's like

00:23:15.600 again like i'm with you but like we should be fighting for universal health care right and

00:23:22.260 then like the cost of things and like the fact that it's hard to find a job won't weigh so heavily

00:23:26.280 it's like all of these things are intertwined and so the problem isn't feminism it's capitalism

00:23:31.580 exactly and like sometimes i think it is hard to conceptualize why that is until you like

00:23:37.380 lay it out and it's like you feel insufficient because you feel like you can't open up emotionally

00:23:44.460 to other men which is a great way to make friends and resolve loneliness or at least manage it and

00:23:51.160 that is a symptom of patriarchy that you feel like you can't be emotionally vulnerable you feel like

00:23:56.260 you have to have so much money to prove your masculinity another aspect of patriarchy but

00:24:00.840 you can't get that much money and you're always having to spend it on things that aren't publicly

00:24:05.160 available because of capitalism like it's it's it's it's patriarchy and capitalism but these

00:24:10.680 people these people are being sold scapegoats in the form of women by people like andrew tate who

00:24:16.760 are taking their money because it's much easier to believe that the problem is women because it's

00:24:22.540 something you can externalize and also a lot of men have been hurt by women just like a lot of

00:24:26.280 women have been hurt by men right like you you have that guy that broke your heart or sorry that

00:24:31.060 woman that broke your heart right i had that guy that broke that's my gay male loneliness a lot of

00:24:37.140 them probably do have a guy that broke their heart and they're in denial about it but you know it's

00:24:42.200 like that's sort of this like emotional thing whereas when you try to talk to them about like

00:24:45.920 structural change and and universal health care that's this like big thing that you can't really

00:24:50.860 understand that you can't grapple with that you don't even have like direct engagement with in

00:24:55.260 your life and so it just becomes easier and it's also it's really enticing to believe that you're

00:25:01.040 you were born to be better than everyone else. You were born to lead. And, you know, you have

00:25:06.100 the rightful sort of top place in society. If only these women would recognize it, you know, 1.00

00:25:12.100 and people would respect you and bow down. It's like this culture of, of fear and negativity,

00:25:17.480 but it's appealing. And it's really imbued in a lot of the way that men are socialized to like

00:25:22.880 the sports that they're socialized to play the, like the, the competitiveness that's driven into

00:25:27.760 them the you know they're not raised to be collaborative and empathetic at all it's like

00:25:32.780 shove your feelings down like work harder you have to be the provider and it's an enormous amount of

00:25:38.940 pressure yeah I just want to add like there's I really want to hammer home like there's all of

00:25:45.460 these ways that I often find myself wanting to empathize with young men expressing their loneliness

00:25:50.780 on the internet and then where it oftentimes i i feel like i can't do that is because the male

00:25:58.080 loneliness epidemic conversation becomes cover for men to just spew misogyny yeah and imply that

00:26:04.740 like women aren't struggling in the same way which like sure maybe it's a different flavor

00:26:10.320 of struggle but it's you know it's the whole thing of like a man's worst fear is like being falsely

00:26:17.880 accused of rape and of women's worst fear as being raped. Yeah. And you see these media pundits,

00:26:23.840 right? Like the Scott Galloways of the world that just all they do is talk about men while promoting

00:26:29.400 misogyny. And it's like the point, the problem is misogyny and centering men's experience.

00:26:36.280 And misogyny hurts everyone. It hurts men and women. And they don't recognize that. And they

00:26:40.000 think, oh, I can just sort of like out misogyny myself out from the system. It's like they buy it.

00:26:44.360 they go further into the system instead of getting outside of it. But the media cycle around the men's

00:26:51.020 loneliness epidemic is, I think, a symptom of our patriarchal society that centers men's

00:26:57.340 experience. And let's be real, men have lost a bit of status in the world, right? Like there are

00:27:02.160 fewer male college graduates, there's fewer men getting higher degrees in certain areas. There's

00:27:07.160 a lot more equality. And when you were on top and you were the sort of master, right? Like any sense

00:27:12.380 of equality feels like something feels like oppression oppression yeah right like something's

00:27:17.020 being taken from you and and this is just what we need to do is educate people and be like actually

00:27:23.520 the system was fucking you up too but instead we're getting this romanticized version of the

00:27:29.640 past sold back to us by people who are very cleverly profiting off of the whole situation 0.80

00:27:34.940 should we return to the profiteers in question yeah we really could talk about i mean it's the

00:27:41.940 male loneliness. I'm not calling it that uncritically, but like in air quotes, like

00:27:46.000 it's a rich text. It's a rich text. I would like to take a quick break from today's show

00:27:52.220 to thank the sponsor of today's episode, Nord VPN. One of my favorite TV shows of all time

00:28:00.220 is the reality TV makeup competition show, Glow Up. Glow Up stands, you already know,

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00:28:14.120 do makeup. It is a British TV show and seasons of it do eventually come to Netflix in the United

00:28:20.840 States but only after like a year. The only way to watch it in real time as it comes out is on the

00:28:26.960 BBC iPlayer and the only way to access the BBC iPlayer is to live in the UK which is a problem

00:28:33.120 for me because i live in new york city enter nordvpn nord does a lot of things it helps keep

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00:29:15.180 plan. That is a discount that I wish I knew about three years ago when I started using Nord. But hey,

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00:29:26.860 you can check out Nord and get that discount at nordvpn.com slash fruity. That'll also be in the

00:29:35.180 episode description. It's nordvpn.com slash fruity. Now back to the show.

00:29:44.420 So the success of Andrew Tate spawns a million Andrew Tates. And one of them, by the way,

00:29:50.460 and I just want to like insert this really fast, is someone called Sneeko. Do you know Sneeko?

00:29:55.380 Of course I know Sneeko. Of course I do, unfortunately.

00:30:00.240 He's like Andrew Tate, but less. I don't know. All of these people to me, all of these people,

00:30:04.980 by the way, who have millions of followers each, but like Sneeko is like a, they're all kind of

00:30:10.160 like dollar store Andrew Tate's to me. Yes, they are. Jack, whatever his name is, that just

00:30:15.240 paid Kaisen at $3,000 on stream the other day. Jack Doherty.

00:30:18.920 No idea.

00:30:19.400 a lot of them are live streamers like aiden ross is in that milieu it's i mean sneko is a

00:30:25.980 live streamer content creator who's yeah just promotes hatred and misogyny and but these people

00:30:32.000 are into like live streaming culture gaming culture like they're more like involved in culture

00:30:37.600 like direct teen culture than andrew tate andrew tate's like the top of it like he's so successful

00:30:42.380 he's up you know living his life in romania or whatever maybe he's right running away from sex

00:30:46.740 trafficking charges right these other guys are very much like on the ground right like they're

00:30:51.240 showing up to meet with donald trump they're like in america they're they're really directly

00:30:56.340 appealing to these young men yeah one time sneeko this happened last year he was at like a some kind

00:31:02.540 of sporting event and he was like walking around kind of like the food area in the stadium i get

00:31:07.400 maybe it was like a baseball game or football game or something so a group a group of these boys that

00:31:11.280 look like they're in like sixth grade swarm him and they're like sneeko sneeko can we get a picture

00:31:17.240 get a picture and then he like takes one of their phones poses to take a selfie with them and while 1.00

00:31:21.680 they're taking a selfie these young boys go fuck the women fuck the women 1.00

00:31:25.480 and then sneeko looks bewildered and he's like what no we love women and then the kids are like 1.00

00:31:40.560 but fuck the gays right we hate the gays we love women we love women but not not like 0.99

00:31:45.640 and sneko was like no we love everyone and it was such a crystallizing moment of like we are 1.00

00:32:03.360 watching con artists at work like i don't think that like sneko or andrew tate especially not

00:32:08.820 to entertain but i don't think any of these people like go to bed at night being like okay time to be

00:32:13.560 a nice person in real life now like it takes a certain type of evil and irresponsibility to be

00:32:19.460 performing all of this bigotry online but you can tell that in this video that sneko is not aware of

00:32:26.320 the real life consequences of his rhetoric and what it's doing to like 12 year olds it reminds

00:32:32.480 me of just like i mean so many internet trolls before him right that are like wait no i wasn't

00:32:38.800 serious like I didn't really mean I mean I guess this is just like so much extremism too generally

00:32:45.620 like wait wait whoa you guys are taking it too far and it's like what did you think the consequences

00:32:50.880 of this would be where did you think this was going it was always going there like that video

00:32:56.580 is is so kind of disturbing because it presents like especially like the the youth and the young

00:33:02.480 children that are consuming his garbage like you just see how it's interpreted and there's no

00:33:07.880 denying it. He can't deny it, right? Because otherwise in interviews, he'll be like, 0.98

00:33:11.500 oh, you know, that's not my audience. And it's like, here's your audience directly confronting

00:33:15.800 you, repeating back what they're hearing from you. A lot of people over the last week have been like,

00:33:22.180 I saw multiple viral tweets with like, why have the young men of the United States turned into

00:33:26.940 Hitler's youth? And I think that 10 second long video is like the single most illustrative example

00:33:33.900 of the entire process happening of the radicalization of boys there are a few cast members

00:33:41.660 of the manosphere that i would like for you to explain to me because i feel like i feel like you

00:33:47.040 know them and i don't i literally made a list because i was like researching for this episode

00:33:52.840 and i was like seeing all of these influencers that donald trump made content with and i was

00:33:58.460 like who are these people and they're all so famous but just like that's how i don't know

00:34:06.120 walled off different parts of the internet are um what is the nelk boys

00:34:10.800 the nelk boys are a group of canadian pranksters they started in prank youtube uh era sort of um

00:34:21.720 second half the 2010s really birthed out of like the logan paul like who also was part of all of

00:34:26.400 this yeah they're canadian youtubers although they've gotten very involved in american politics

00:34:30.620 canadian yes they're canadian what this is literally foreign election interference canadians

00:34:36.560 are always like they're like the only rude people to ever come out of canada so we had to send them

00:34:40.320 to america um some of them aren't i think steve will do it as american but yeah the main guys

00:34:45.840 are canadian they uh they really blew up in early covid because they refused to do lockdown and they

00:34:50.580 went on a national U.S. party tour during the earliest days of the pandemic when we had, you

00:34:56.600 know, no treatments for COVID. And so they resisted. They also kept gyms open. They were

00:35:02.540 really into the like right wing. We're not shutting down anything in early 2020. And so they got,

00:35:08.160 they did this like frat tour where they were like visiting frats and stuff too, and partying and

00:35:12.480 that got them a lot of attention. They're just, I mean, ultimately they're a prank channel.

00:35:16.480 so they do pranks and that's really what blew them up now they're getting more political but

00:35:21.040 what blew them up was like classic youtube 2018 pranks sure and then during this election cycle

00:35:28.200 they were on donald trump's private jet with him they've been on that jet multiple times but yeah

00:35:34.160 they collaborated they have a podcast called the full send podcast and donald trump uh appeared on

00:35:39.980 that and jd vance and you know they've done a lot they believe in trump they're such organic trump

00:35:44.580 supporters and they have collaborated a lot with Trump. I'll say that to the Nelk boys. 0.98

00:35:49.620 Last chance. If she wins, the country's finished. The Nelk boys were the bridge. The Nelk boys 1.00

00:35:55.980 truly opened the floodgates for everyone else. Because you'll note prior to the Nelk boys, 0.98

00:36:01.600 Trump wasn't doing as much long form stuff. He wasn't really collaborating with all of these 1.00

00:36:06.240 guys. The Nelk boys really honestly trained him for Rogan because he was having these hours long 1.00

00:36:11.480 interviews he was getting more comfortable dealing with this world and then after he started 0.98

00:36:15.700 collaborating with the knock boys you see the trickle down where suddenly he's on impulsive

00:36:19.400 right logan paul's podcast now you take a look at the universe and you see all of the different

00:36:24.080 planets and you see this you know look here we are on one relatively small planet why wouldn't

00:36:30.880 there be on a planet that's you know 400 times the size why wouldn't there be some something

00:36:37.100 something somebody the thought of it freaks me out you know it's it's weird to think that we

00:36:41.920 potentially are only the source of life in like an infinite ever expanding universe um but but

00:36:47.200 you know technology they'd never be able to take you in a fight okay we're gonna pop over to the

00:36:51.580 paul brothers because they're on my list i do know who logan and jake paul are they are brothers

00:36:56.960 um jake so they started out as youtubers this sounds like a boomer podcast

00:37:03.380 i'm not a boomer i'm just homosexual i feel like i'm on cnn

00:37:09.960 i don't know what's going on on the straight male internet and neither do my listeners 0.55

00:37:15.680 no some of some of you are going to comment and be like you know what do you not know i know jake

00:37:20.160 paul was a youtuber and he became a boxer well they started as viners right they started back

00:37:24.060 in 1600 vine so they was the boomer now they started they blew up they were some of the

00:37:31.860 earliest people to go viral on Vine. They moved into 1600 Vine in Hollywood and they really became

00:37:36.540 sort of mainstream celebrities. Of course, then pivoted to YouTube, blew up on YouTube. For a

00:37:41.280 while, it looked like Logan was going to be a little bit more liberal. He actually supported

00:37:45.700 the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020 and made this great video about social justice and why we

00:37:51.060 support BLM. That was while his brother was in Arizona looting during the BLM riots, smashing

00:37:57.360 up stores and participating in looting a mall of course jake famously had team 10 which was his

00:38:03.120 content house um in west hollywood where he had a bunch of uh underage content creators living for

00:38:09.600 a while where they it was like sort of an early collab group it was like the hype house before

00:38:12.920 the hype house but they yeah they've also become more famous logan has evolved and really pivoted

00:38:18.060 into becoming a major podcaster so he's up there you know with a lot of these big podcasts with

00:38:23.300 his show impulsive. Logan is the one that filmed the dead body in the Japanese suicide forest.

00:38:28.760 That I, these are just not sentences that should exist in the English language.

00:38:34.700 There's a lot of lore with the Paul family, but they're anyway, they're adjacent to all,

00:38:39.320 like, obviously they know the Nelk boys. They came up in prank YouTube era together. It's all

00:38:43.860 kind of the same crowd. I was going to ask you, how do you explain these people's like

00:38:47.760 position in the manosphere? But really it's all the same. They're all just like performatively

00:38:53.180 hyper masculine very wealthy very like ostentatious and outward about their wealth is that they all

00:39:00.720 have like you know tiny beautiful blonde girlfriends well logan has a fiance or wife now

00:39:07.420 i think um who is brunette and very pretty diversity diversity she is a model i mean yes 0.64

00:39:14.160 essentially what you're saying is is all the same and true right they have the the the model hot

00:39:19.200 you know girlfriend or wife they've got the the mansion in puerto rico previously calabasas like

00:39:24.780 like you said they perform masculinity like jake has gotten really into boxing he just boxed mike

00:39:29.440 tyson or is set to box mike tyson it's on netflix you know it's it's like this leaning into this

00:39:35.560 like hyper masculine lifestyle and culture is there a point in which the paul brothers become

00:39:41.160 explicitly political it's been that way i mean jake famously said he wants to run for president

00:39:45.600 both of them have endorsed yeah republican candidates i mean jake got vivek ramaswami

00:39:52.120 on tiktok in the in the primary in the republican primary jake was a big ramaswami person and

00:39:57.700 collaborated with him so they've been political for a minute um i did have aiden ross on here

00:40:03.000 aiden ross okay aiden ross is another diet andrew tate that's my understanding he's like he's he's

00:40:07.900 actually kind of like the direct spawn of andrew tate he's like the mini me but he's not very 0.92

00:40:11.980 masculine looking he's he's small like not to be whatever but he's not even fucking ripped 0.96

00:40:19.240 he's under six foot beta who's who's bigger me or him he you're bigger than him he's small 0.97

00:40:28.780 he's like i mean actually let's google aiden ross oh yeah he's only five seven again love

00:40:33.520 a short king okay no hate this man is 24 years old we are not body shaming anyone we love you

00:40:39.420 know, short men. But he is sort of this like I picture him as just like one of those like yappy

00:40:44.420 dogs where he's sort of like always around these bigger guys. And he's always like he's a booster

00:40:49.920 of them and he's very enthusiastic about them. And he occupies the same sort of spaces. He's a

00:40:55.760 live streamer, though. He's primarily in live streaming, not YouTube. Didn't Donald Trump give

00:41:00.500 him a Tesla or was it the other way around? Which was actually a FEC violation for a campaign

00:41:08.420 donation. So it had to be returned. But yeah, he famously streamed with Donald Trump. I think

00:41:14.340 they were at Mar-a-Lago when they streamed together. Yeah. He was a Twitch streamer,

00:41:18.640 but he was kicked off Twitch and then he was allowed back on and he was ultimately kicked

00:41:22.020 off Twitch eight times. I think he's on kick now, right? Until he found his home on kick,

00:41:27.640 which is the right wing Twitch, which we are going to talk about that mirror industry. But okay,

00:41:33.180 we are through our cast of characters with one who remains joe rogan well why i don't understand

00:41:41.240 why left-leaning media which is mostly jewish are calling people white supremacists dude

00:41:46.700 did you say that yeah i just don't understand left-wing media is mostly jewish i mean

00:41:52.180 according to my jewish friends it is you know but why do they hate white guys it's just woke 0.77

00:42:00.340 things man it's just virtue woke bullshit i feel like people maybe not avid listeners of this 0.97

00:42:05.680 podcast but maybe other others maybe perhaps fans of joe rogan would bristle at the inclusion of 0.79

00:42:12.520 him in the manosphere because a lot of the people that we've been talking about they are

00:42:17.180 so ridiculous with the way that they show off their wealth their bodies the way that they talk 0.86

00:42:22.780 about women i mean it's like it's oftentimes you know in the style of andrew tate it's like a 0.87

00:42:27.420 caricature of 1960s misogyny whereas Joe Rogan presents himself very differently Joe Rogan

00:42:35.560 obviously biggest podcast in the world Joe Rogan presents himself as like a cool guy he's calm

00:42:42.020 he just wants to hear everybody out he just wants to ask questions he doesn't want anybody to be

00:42:47.720 silenced that's why he has the biggest podcast in the world how how would you characterize Joe

00:42:53.160 Rogan and his politics? Well, Joe Rogan is, like you said, I don't think it's fair to necessarily

00:42:59.240 group him in with all of these people, but he's adjacent. And ultimately, these people

00:43:03.920 feed into the Rogan universe. Joe Rogan actually doesn't necessarily have terrible politics. He's

00:43:11.860 quite ignorant of a lot of actual policies. He did support Bernie Sanders in 2020. He's 0.98

00:43:18.640 fundamentally like more of a populist. Obviously he said a bunch of transphobic stuff. He's super

00:43:24.280 bigoted, but he's not necessarily economically right in the same way. Like he wasn't necessarily

00:43:30.340 on board with Trump in the same way. Like he, until he was of course, but he used to, I mean,

00:43:35.840 he used to have a lot more leftists on, he had Cornel West on, he had Kyle Kalinsky on, he would

00:43:40.220 have like, I think he had David Pakman, like these, these Democrat YouTuber type people, like

00:43:44.440 he would engage in a little bit more of a diverse range of opinions. Unfortunately,

00:43:49.600 I think COVID, the early days of the pandemic also really radicalized him. We have to think of

00:43:54.320 COVID as this seminal event on the internet that really radicalized a generation of content

00:43:59.200 creators. And I think ultimately Rogan was part of that. But he's part of the manosphere and he's

00:44:04.600 part of this hyper-masculine internet. He has a lot of these figures on, these UFC fighters,

00:44:09.420 these Jim bro type people. But he also has a lot of other interesting characters.

00:44:14.180 His main role in this world, I think, is being a useful idiot. I mean, now I think he'll 0.99

00:44:19.220 intentionally platform certain ideologies that he agrees with, which is just Trump,

00:44:23.140 like Trumpism and conservatism. I do think he's a fundamentally curious person. I don't think

00:44:27.500 he's super knowledgeable, but I think he likes to hear about things like he'll have some alien

00:44:34.260 guys on he'll have some history guys on like he goes down these wormholes and it's enticing for

00:44:40.560 listeners because he performs you know what it's not even that he's that curious he sort of just

00:44:44.700 performs as curious and he performs as uh i'll hear anyone out like it's sort of this like

00:44:51.580 performance of course he doesn't actually hear anyone out he's not going to have a lot of

00:44:54.460 progressives he doesn't have very many women he doesn't have you know there's voices that are not

00:44:57.940 being heard on the joe rogan podcast and i think we know what those voices are but to his the people

00:45:02.720 that listen to him they don't they they're drinking the kool-aid they're like oh no he just

00:45:06.660 he wants to have these people on right so that he'll hear any opinion it's like well no he he

00:45:12.540 won't right he's not having trans people on exactly joe rogan is this is the second time

00:45:19.740 on this podcast recently that i've invoked the contrapoints character of the centrist libertarian

00:45:25.860 podcast host jackie jackson where in one of contrapoints videos she says welcome to the

00:45:31.420 freedom pod where it doesn't matter what you say it only matters that you say and that's that's how

00:45:37.500 i feel about joe rogan's podcast it's like he is so undiscerning about what he platforms but he is

00:45:45.080 discerning enough because we know who he won't platform right he's discerning enough and i think

00:45:50.580 this gives him this plausible deniability to be like i'm just a regular guy hearing people out

00:45:55.820 and i'll have anyone on it's like you won't have anyone on because where are the leftists where are

00:46:00.700 the trans people? Where are the people that are challenging your subtle ideology that is coming

00:46:05.520 through your guest selection? And this is what you see in so many conservative podcasts. It's like

00:46:09.780 they take this sort of like air of neutrality. But I had a fight with my friend about this the

00:46:16.860 other day. We were looking at one of these, it was sort of like a knockoff Joe Rogan type thing,

00:46:19.920 but it's like, he's like, well, he'll hear anyone out. It's like, well, let's go through the list.

00:46:23.300 Let's look for the past two years of the guests. Only one mainstream Democrat person, and that's

00:46:29.020 Reid Hoffman. Right. You know, it's like that type of shit. It's like, let's be real. You've

00:46:34.740 had Elon Musk on how many times you've had all these people like you have the same people that

00:46:39.180 share your viewpoint. I think that Rogan could have been a very useful tool for progressives

00:46:44.500 and the Democrats, but they alienated him very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Because after he had Bernie

00:46:49.900 Sanders on in, I think, 2019, a lot of people on the left were very angry that Joe Rogan had or

00:46:57.140 that Bernie Sanders had agreed. No? Moronic. Yeah, they were angry. And it was the stupidest

00:47:02.220 thing I've ever seen. I was that was another time I got canceled online was defending that 1.00

00:47:06.020 a lot of people on the left and liberals were very angry with him with Bernie for having gone

00:47:12.280 on the podcast of somebody who had said transphobic things in the past. And like, on one hand,

00:47:17.940 I understand that. And on the other hand, I listened to the podcast today. And Bernie is

00:47:22.780 basically talking about the need for universal health care the entire time. And it has millions

00:47:27.800 and millions of views. I think that people that are mad about that have a deep misunderstanding

00:47:32.600 of the media landscape of today. This is not a world where you're like Bernie Sanders doesn't

00:47:37.460 go on. So he's deplatformed. This is a man with a significantly larger platform that is giving

00:47:42.780 somebody like Bernie space to essentially make their case and cleave off some of that audience

00:47:47.180 to the left. You should take that opportunity every single time. And I mean, this is why you

00:47:52.480 see people, it's good to engage in those spaces. I don't think that necessarily everyone should

00:47:57.940 have to do that, right? But it's good. We want people with progressive ideologies to go into

00:48:03.600 these radicalized spaces and say, hey, you might actually agree with some of what we have going,

00:48:09.200 right? This is how de-radicalization happens a lot of the time. People are like, oh, that's

00:48:14.520 interesting. Oh, I started to follow. Oh, maybe Bernie does have some points, right? But if you

00:48:18.080 just ignore these spaces, they don't go away. They have the legitimacy already, right? Bernie

00:48:23.200 shouldn't go on some random 500-listener Nazi podcast or something, right? But the power

00:48:29.480 dynamic is quite clear in that situation, and Joe Rogan has the power. In 2019, Justin Peters

00:48:37.140 wrote this piece for Slate where he wrote, the Joe Rogan experience has become one of the internet's

00:48:42.840 foremost vectors for anti-wokeness. With its mellow, welcoming vibe, its pretense of common

00:48:48.420 sense, and its general reluctance to push back on any of its guest ideas, save for only the

00:48:53.400 baddest, the podcast has become the factory where red pills get sugar-coated. I think that was a

00:48:59.000 really great synopsis of what the Joe Rogan podcast has become more recently, which is where people

00:49:04.460 with really far-right beliefs, I mean, Donald Trump, yes, Elon Musk, Jordan Peterson, where

00:49:11.060 they go to have their beliefs laundered through the cool guy lens. That's extraordinarily

00:49:15.760 dangerous. And I would argue that's basically what's happened with like incel masculinity for

00:49:20.800 the masses, which is why I wanted to start this whole podcast with explaining the whole incel

00:49:24.880 culture, because it was originally a fringe thing where if you explained the worldview of incels to 0.98

00:49:30.980 any odd guy on the street, any odd boy in middle school, even they'd be like, dude, get a fucking 0.99

00:49:36.020 grip. But now it's been watered down so many times that it's kind of like, I don't know, 0.96

00:49:42.200 a mainstay ideology that runs through like barstool podcasts. It's interesting. We didn't

00:49:47.520 talk about barstool. Barstool hasn't come up as much, but it is also it also feeds into this

00:49:52.400 version of masculinity. And also Dave Portnoy is a Trump supporter. Like, I think I think barstool

00:49:57.600 is much more like cultury, but it's it's another one. Look at who they're platforming. They're not

00:50:02.280 platforming progressives. And that's, that's this broader thing that I think we need to look at is

00:50:06.060 like zoom out and just be like, look at all of this together. Like there are not progressive

00:50:11.700 voices in these spaces and these are not neutral spaces, especially not the Joe Rogan experience.

00:50:17.540 That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. That doesn't mean that, that people like Bernie Sanders

00:50:20.520 shouldn't try to go into those spaces and espouse healthcare for all or like populist ideology,

00:50:26.540 but they are, you know, they're not neutral. I would like to take a quick, quick break from

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00:51:49.100 that's rocketmoney.com slash fruity now let's get back to the show

00:51:54.700 after the election there were a lot of people online who were correctly pointing out what

00:52:01.860 we've been pointing out so far in this episode which is that the reason so many young men voted

00:52:05.940 for trump is because they've been radicalized in these online spaces and there were a lot of calls

00:52:10.660 for us to develop our own spaces even our own joe rogan of the left one person wrote people

00:52:18.920 saying harris should have done joe rogan are missing the point that wouldn't have helped her

00:52:23.140 liberals need to build their own joe rogan somebody who can speak to the people he speaks to 0.96

00:52:28.880 without being a guy who wants to kiss ass to billionaires like elon musk you taylor wrote a 0.94

00:52:36.020 piece for your stub stack called why democrats won't build their own joe rogan can you explain 0.97

00:52:42.740 your thesis there yeah i wrote this at 1 a.m without even reading it over before i published

00:52:48.440 it because I got annoyed at seeing that tweet. I understand the impulse. There were so many

00:52:53.320 people being like, well, they have podcasts that are doing well, so we need to have more podcasts.

00:52:58.140 I understand you're correctly identifying the issue, but maybe misunderstanding it.

00:53:03.420 Well, that's a symptom of the issue, right? The broader issue is that we have not spent,

00:53:07.480 like the Democrats, here's the fundamental core problem is, well, actually, let me walk you through

00:53:12.820 this. No, because like, I really want to make myself clear. Take a seat. Sit, sit down and

00:53:25.920 listen. Listen to a woman for once. Why don't you sit your ass down and listen to a woman? 1.00

00:53:34.380 Explain men to you. So I think a lot of Democrats saw the media climate and they're like, 0.99

00:53:39.740 well, if Kamala had just gone on a few more episodes of Call Her Daddy and had done Smartless

00:53:46.380 and Pod Save America, she'd win. No. The point is that the left ideology has no clout on the 0.85

00:53:52.460 internet. There is no infrastructure on the left that is even remotely equivalent to what the right

00:53:58.560 wing has built for decades. Ever since the days of talk radio in the 90s, the right recognized the

00:54:04.880 value of personality-driven media delivered natively and basically uncensored through first

00:54:10.800 radio, then podcasts, then YouTube and stuff. When they got deplatformed there, they built

00:54:15.040 their entire suite of apps like Rumble and Kick and all of these other, the right-wing version

00:54:19.760 of every single mainstream social app for their deplatformed people. And they've seeded their

00:54:24.840 ideology so successfully through amassing online influence, again, through this decades-long

00:54:29.640 project, which is incredibly well-funded by major right-wing billionaire donors, right?

00:54:35.040 Things like Turning Point USA, where they're going out and recruiting college students that

00:54:39.780 have the potential to be influencers, basically training them up, giving them resources. If you

00:54:44.100 want to be a right-wing content creator and you're 21 years old and you want to say a bunch of 0.99

00:54:46.940 regressive shit, somebody will buy you a camera. Somebody will edit your podcast. There is this 0.95

00:54:52.100 infrastructure to plug into that does not exist on the left. So not only are there no voices at

00:54:56.560 the top. There's no voices all the way down. If you're a leftist and you're making a podcast,

00:55:00.620 you're editing it yourself probably. Don't call me out like that. I'm editing this tomorrow.

00:55:07.100 Yeah. I mean, you're not getting a check from the Heritage Foundation, right? This funding

00:55:11.700 structure doesn't exist. Part of that is because leftists actually challenge billionaires'

00:55:16.100 existence, right? So rich billionaires aren't going to fund people that don't even believe

00:55:20.500 they should exist or believe that they should be taxed and stuff. And also a lot of these

00:55:23.820 billionaires are right wing. Also, there is no like Joe Rogan of the left too, because the left

00:55:29.500 essentially has mainstream media. Like this is why the right built this alternative media ecosystem

00:55:34.020 is because it is true that legacy media is largely a tool of the democratic party. It's

00:55:40.340 corporate media, like corporate media, of course they're going to, yeah, like the wall street

00:55:44.480 journal is also like Republican, whatever, but it serves this two-party system and ultimately

00:55:48.220 serves capital, right? They have an interest in preserving capitalism and a pretty fucked up 0.99

00:55:52.900 version of capitalism. You're not going to see the New York Times espousing any sort of leftist 0.96

00:55:56.700 or progressive ideology. Look at the shit that they're publishing about trans people right now 1.00

00:56:00.380 or Gaza, right? So there is no media ecosystem for the Democrats. The Democrats can engage in 1.00

00:56:06.480 traditional media because, again, the traditional media is bought into capitalism. But the Democratic

00:56:12.100 platform, Kamala's platform, is completely out of step with progressive internet. If she went on 0.92

00:56:19.440 Hassan Piker, right? That's not going to be a friendly interview. They don't agree on a lot.

00:56:22.680 It wouldn't be like Trump going on Rogan because they share the ideology. Kamala doesn't share an 0.99

00:56:28.420 ideology with the left. She's fundamentally a centrist, corporate, borderline Republican 0.67

00:56:31.940 Democrat. So they can't even plug into the leftists that even have a modicum of clout. 1.00

00:56:37.740 And by the way, those leftists have amassed that clout with no funding and no support.

00:56:42.420 Whereas you have other people like Tim Pool, these right-wing YouTubers that are getting

00:56:46.320 $400,000 a month. Tim Pool was getting $400,000 a month just to produce his YouTube show from

00:56:53.300 funding that ultimately ended up being a lot of like Russian money, which is hilarious.

00:56:57.900 But it's like this is this. The right is so incredibly astroturfed.

00:57:01.960 Right. Right.

00:57:03.580 And it's like astroturfed into existence. There's there's nothing like that on the left.

00:57:08.340 Someone on Twitter wrote, anyways, liberals should start doing podcasts and TikToks,

00:57:12.640 whatever aimed at setting the youth straight. Since the days of Gamergate, the right has

00:57:16.860 totally dominated this shit and liberals haven't taken it seriously at all. And again, I think 0.99

00:57:22.400 there are so many people who are correctly identifying that the digital political space

00:57:27.960 is completely dominated by right wing voices, but our misunderstanding that there is a reason for

00:57:33.800 that. And it's all those reasons that you just stated, like there's not a shortage of like

00:57:38.360 left-wing people doing podcasts no there's not like if you're watching this on fucking youtube 0.50

00:57:45.160 look on the right side and there are going to be 16 other people making video essays about left-wing 0.70

00:57:51.600 topics and they're all going to be making their money entirely from crowdfunding and patreon and

00:57:55.800 stuff like that i mean people look at hassan piker who if you don't know hassan piker he's like a

00:58:00.380 leftist twitch streamer and they see his success and he is very successful and he is very wealthy

00:58:07.600 not merely in the echelon of the top right-wing creators. And he's wealthy because of ad revenue

00:58:15.300 he makes from Twitch, not because he gets a multi-million dollar daily wire contract.

00:58:21.100 They literally didn't credential him through the DNC. He had to get a credential through his uncle

00:58:26.000 who runs the Young Turks, another YouTube channel. Once he got into the DNC, they booted him out

00:58:31.860 after he interviewed people from the uncommitted movement and told him that there was no more

00:58:35.480 space for him this is the most relevant content creator in the entire left internet and they

00:58:41.720 kicked him out of the dnc that's just such a perfect metaphor for like how and they don't i

00:58:46.660 mean they don't respect they don't respect the internet i mean they being the democrats the

00:58:52.080 democrats don't respect the internet the democrats are completely in bed with corporate media

00:58:56.200 150 i mean it feels like it feels like the strategy this election was like

00:59:02.600 guilting young people to get out and vote. But the thing is, you need to really meet them where

00:59:07.340 they are. And what the right so successfully did was tap into these young men who have, through

00:59:14.460 extraordinary misogyny and really disgusting content, made themselves cool among young men.

00:59:22.300 But also, why won't they go into these leftist spaces? Why would Kamala not do a single interview 0.79

00:59:27.100 unscripted over an hour? The entire call her daddy interview was scripted. She didn't even go to the 1.00

00:59:32.100 alex's house like it was at the set had to be created it was such a weird interview that was

00:59:36.920 not how they normally do those interviews like set up to look look like a 60 minutes interview

00:59:41.620 right like they don't want to engage because they're i mean this is the fundamental problem

00:59:45.620 with the idea of the demo what what these what they keep running the remember at the beginning

00:59:52.920 remember at the beginning of the episode i was like we'll get there yeah but i know i was like

00:59:57.280 I'm going to get mad. I'm going to get mad. But it's like, you have to wonder how did we get a

01:00:02.740 democratic party that is so terrified, that knows that they are so completely out of step with all

01:00:08.640 young people on all the major issues. So they can't even engage with those young people on

01:00:13.000 the internet. And they have to stay off the internet and go just talk to the New York times,

01:00:15.900 the Washington post, because if they actually engage with people on the internet, they will

01:00:19.760 be called out. They will be called out for being completely out of step and not having policies

01:00:24.540 that are popular and not living up to their promises. They're not a party of the people.

01:00:29.780 They're a party of corporate rich donors. And if you're going to be a party of corporate rich

01:00:34.560 donors, just be Republicans. They already have that on lock. And you can't win on the internet

01:00:39.120 when you have nothing to say. So it's like, even if you had put like, imagine they had put her on

01:00:44.820 Joe Rogan. Like what would she even say? My favorite piece of content from this entire

01:00:50.100 election is ironically a Barry Weiss video from the free press who I hate. Okay. Not a fan. None

01:00:57.100 of us are fans, but she sent one of her little minions to the DNC and they interview, they went

01:01:02.580 around interviewing all of these like content creators and just like people, like young people

01:01:06.420 at the DNC and said, what is your favorite Kamala Harris policy? Why are you supporting her? What is

01:01:10.620 the number one policy that's causing you to support her? No one in the video could name a

01:01:16.840 single policy that she had. It was all about joy. And you could say that, okay, she had policies

01:01:22.240 that were good. I think she did have actually some good policies that were better than Trump,

01:01:26.040 of course, but she couldn't communicate those. And she knew that if she went into these spaces,

01:01:30.760 her whole platform was so completely out of touch with what young people said that they wanted

01:01:36.060 and that Joe Biden promised them back in 2020, right? Like all of this other stuff about like

01:01:41.060 health care. And so she couldn't go into those spaces. And I think if we want a democratic,

01:01:46.620 if we want power on the left, first of all, we need funding. We need massive amounts of funding.

01:01:53.120 We need coordination. And we need a democratic party that actually espouses left ideals. And I

01:02:02.000 mean left, not like super leftist. We're not talking about super leftist. We're talking about

01:02:06.280 broadly popular policies. There's a reason why people in a lot of states that voted against

01:02:10.920 kamala voted for progressive policies right you had was it minnesota or whatever voted for like

01:02:15.180 the 15 minimum wage voted for paid parental leave like these policies are popular and the only reason

01:02:21.440 the democrats aren't supporting them is because they want to cater to these billionaires that

01:02:25.200 are busy funding aiden ross types for the next generation like they're it's just it's so crazy

01:02:30.720 yeah yeah shortly before the election there was uh why am i not speaking it is late these are good

01:02:39.800 rants by the way well done drives me crazy shortly before the election wired published

01:02:45.840 this infographic that was really interesting and it was called a visual guide to the influencers

01:02:51.900 shaping the 2024 election they basically got like 25 influencers on what they called the left 25

01:02:59.940 influencers on the right the thing that really jumped out to me about this infographic is that

01:03:06.140 the most popular influencers on the left infographic are like some of the smallest

01:03:14.400 on the right in terms of following size, right? So it's like the influencers with the biggest

01:03:19.560 following who are leftists have a million followers, a couple million followers. The

01:03:24.800 biggest influencers on the right are Elon Musk, who has 200 million followers, the Paul brothers

01:03:31.240 who each have over 20 million followers.

01:03:34.000 And again, it's like there's no shortage of content creators

01:03:38.180 making leftist content and even liberal content.

01:03:41.900 We just don't have funding.

01:03:43.100 It's like the apparatuses through which people view this content is not neutral.

01:03:48.440 And that goes back to like the problems of the platforms, right?

01:03:51.620 Like the platforms are also built to reward conservatives.

01:03:54.380 This is the irony of Elon Musk buying Twitter.

01:03:56.740 There was that great Politico story in 2021

01:03:58.680 that really pulled out all of the analysis and looked at it and found that Twitter was

01:04:03.740 overwhelmingly boosting conservative voices. We know that YouTube has birthed tons of conservative

01:04:09.760 influencers. Algorithms reward extremism and they do not reward nuance. And the right thrives on

01:04:17.100 fear and extremism. I mean, conservative ideology is all about sort of like othering and scaring

01:04:21.680 people. And that performs well on the internet, especially on social media. And now you have also

01:04:26.660 like Elon Musk just openly using his, the entire platform of Twitter to influence the election very

01:04:32.840 successfully. As you mentioned, right? Like there, there are these leftists and I say leftists

01:04:37.420 meaning like LGBTQ, right? People that care about like rights, disability justice activists

01:04:42.380 with followings, especially from TikTok. Like TikTok gave so many people, especially progressive

01:04:46.800 people voices on the internet in a way that YouTube really didn't. And they just don't have

01:04:51.720 the support. They don't have any kind of infrastructure and they don't have these

01:04:54.640 things like Turning Point USA or The Daily Wire. It's like these theater programs that build these

01:05:00.240 people up, the barstool universe, right? Where you start in, you get in early, they train you up,

01:05:05.340 you get good, you get big, and then you launch on your own.

01:05:08.100 Because those people are espousing beliefs that fundamentally support people in power,

01:05:12.880 which is something you taught me. I sound like Taylor Lorenz.

01:05:16.500 Well, this is why Barry Weiss is able to get tens of millions of dollars. If you tell rich people

01:05:20.660 that they're the victim and you just tell them everything you want to hear and you don't challenge

01:05:24.820 power, they'll prop you up and they'll prop you up as quote unquote independent media. There's

01:05:29.420 nothing independent about the right wing media ecosystem on the internet. It is entirely bought

01:05:34.200 and paid for. Also in Wired, Brian Barrett wrote, the world of conservative influencers dwarfs their

01:05:41.440 liberal counterparts in both follower size and impact. In the same way Democrats never found

01:05:46.520 their own rush limbaugh they don't have a stephen crowder or a ben shapiro or even so help us a tim

01:05:52.760 pool there are democrats with followings online but the cumulative gap in people paying attention

01:05:58.340 to what they say is several orders of magnitude wide like you said even when right wingers get

01:06:04.480 deplatformed from places like instagram and youtube for being you know overtly misogynist 1.00

01:06:10.180 or neo-nazis or saying faggot which i can say because i'm a faggot um there's a cottage industry 0.99

01:06:17.000 of conservative like mirror social networks that are like twitter and i mean now you can be a neo 1.00

01:06:24.060 neo-nazi on twitter but that are like youtube or instagram or any of these other apps there's

01:06:29.020 rumble there's kick there's getter parlor truth social gab and all of these platforms they say

01:06:36.060 they exist you know be uncensored freedom to post whatever you want unmoderated like the this is how

01:06:42.860 social media should be who who is posting on websites that are just worse versions of the

01:06:48.780 social media platforms that already exist people who got kicked off why did they get kicked off 0.73

01:06:52.480 because they're fucking wild so rumble like there was this there was this report that came out um 0.88

01:06:57.800 that said like i don't know so and so like on rumble got 10x as many views as like hassan pike 0.99

01:07:03.400 or whatever. And it's like, yeah, because Rumble, a view on Rumble is not the same as a view on

01:07:08.660 Twitch. Twitch actually is a legitimate platform. A lot of these other platforms will sort of like

01:07:13.200 inflate their view count and make things seem bigger than they are to attract advertisers and

01:07:19.060 to make it seem like they're more influential than they are. And that sort of feeds their

01:07:22.620 influence. That gets them bigger opportunities because then they can go out and say, I got 10

01:07:26.260 billion views on something. It's like, well, did you? You probably got the equivalent of like 100,000

01:07:30.920 YouTube views, but of course you've been deplatformed from YouTube and now you can go

01:07:33.900 claim. This is the reason that Elon got rid of the view count that Twitter was previously using.

01:07:39.720 And now every single API call is a view. So you can just have the tweet refreshing on your page

01:07:44.180 and you'll get endless views, even if you're tweeting from a private account with no followers

01:07:48.120 that's locked. When I wrote a story for the Washington Post on all of this year ago,

01:07:52.100 I posted a tweet to a locked account with zero followers, let the page refresh. It got to 700

01:07:56.820 something views nice 700 people didn't view that right it's just it's view inflation and it's made

01:08:02.160 to make things seem more important and more impactful and more influential than they are

01:08:05.840 and and that sort of feeds on itself there's nothing like that for the left there's no leftist

01:08:09.880 twitter or like leftist youtube or something that's like i mean there's there's blue sky

01:08:15.740 they're trying blue sky is built on an open protocol so then to come years later after

01:08:21.580 disrespecting literally just disrespecting the internet for like decades and be like why don't

01:08:26.000 we have like a liberal nelk boys it's like you don't you don't have anything you it's not that

01:08:32.480 you don't have a liberal nelk boys like you don't have anything adam faze wrote this quote which is

01:08:37.240 now circulating widely conservatives own digital media liberals own hollywood hollywood is irrelevant 0.55

01:08:43.640 adam gave that quote to me for my newsletter

01:08:46.020 and it was a good quote adam's 100 i mean it's 100 correct i wish somebody would send that quote

01:08:57.340 to the dnc because it's true and they have made no effort to even court the internet and look at

01:09:05.040 the way i mean i'm glad to see that they're finally like calling hassan piker up to quote

01:09:09.160 him in a story the one successful influencer on the left ouch just kidding no i'm kidding i'm

01:09:15.460 no but like you know hassan's on like a new like he's just on a big level here's the other thing

01:09:20.140 with his son he's unreasonably good looking and like oh cool and dresses cool tell me about it

01:09:26.980 but you know what i mean like he he hassan would be an influencer no matter what he was saying

01:09:31.840 because he is hot very attractive and very cool and genuinely a good person too i will say like

01:09:38.580 hassan is actually a cool fun good person hassan also if you're listening to this and you've never

01:09:44.600 seen any of Hasan Piker's like streams or appearances on television go watch them he's

01:09:50.220 he's great you know getting back to young men like he has this kind of heterosexual masculinity

01:09:56.180 where he does lift the weights and he he does you know he's like big and muscly and so focused on

01:10:05.220 his body oh i'm sweating but he he does um it's also just with the aggressive stop it's it's he

01:10:14.920 has this sort of like aggression with the way that he's with he the way that he yells about

01:10:19.100 politics like he he has this way of reaching out to young heterosexual men that like they don't 0.99

01:10:27.000 want to listen to me they don't want to listen like the you know the fag with the glittery nails 1.00

01:10:30.720 Exactly. And this is why I think it's, he embodies this, this body type, this like ideal of male masculinity, right? He's like six, I don't even know how tall he is. He's very tall. He's like six, three or something, but he's like extremely ripped. Like he hangs with the guys, but he's also, he's like the one guy that's like that, but that's also like cool and progressive in a way, right? That, that has an audience and makes his audience around progressive policies. 1.00

01:10:57.200 He also has endless patience on the internet to sort of articulate those policies. And that's

01:11:01.780 something that's very rare. And I think that's what has led to his success. But how can you

01:11:05.800 replicate that, right? It's hard. Hassan had that great interview with that. He interviews the guy

01:11:10.820 who, I can't remember his name. He has this gym that they go to, whatever. And he's talking to

01:11:15.320 this gym owner on stream. This was like a day or two after the election. The guy had voted for

01:11:19.640 Trump and he sort of very expertly pushes him and sort of talks about it. But that's the kind of

01:11:24.600 thing that a lot of people a few years ago were like canceling people for where it's like how

01:11:28.520 dare you talk to this person how dare you engage with this person like I think another thing that

01:11:31.980 he does Hassan does really well is he does engage in these spaces right he'll go and he'll talk to

01:11:36.120 people that don't necessarily agree and I think he can go into those spaces again because he performs

01:11:41.080 this very traditional masculine role whereas like other yeah somebody with like glittery nails like

01:11:45.540 they're not going to listen right in the same way but how do you have more people like that you have

01:11:50.120 more people like that by building up an infrastructure long ago let's not forget Hassan

01:11:54.000 came up from the Young Turks and he was huge on Facebook video. He went viral, you know, in 2016

01:11:59.380 as the woke bae on Facebook video. I don't, I think without the Young Turks, what would he be 0.85

01:12:05.620 doing? Who knows? Certainly not a huge Twitch star. And so you need that talent roster. You 1.00

01:12:10.980 need somewhere for like for people to learn and grow and get better at their craft before they

01:12:17.180 really can move on to the next level. One thing, can we just say like one thing that I think we

01:12:20.940 shouldn't take away from this is we should do misogyny, but from the left. I don't want people

01:12:25.360 to say, oh, well, okay, so let's just fund a bunch of men on the left. And yeah, they're misogynistic

01:12:30.180 bros, but they're going to support healthcare. Exactly. No. Yeah, totally. I mean, we don't need

01:12:35.840 Andrew Tate, who like wants a $15 minimum wage. Right. But we do need something. And the last

01:12:44.360 thing that I had on here to ask you is, if there can't be a left wing Joe Rogan, what can there be?

01:12:51.020 What should there be? Like, what can we do as consumers of media and creators of media? Like,

01:12:55.800 where do we go from this colossal failure? Well, first of all, we all have a responsibility to

01:13:01.000 use our platforms to speak truth to power. And I think it's very easy to get co-opted by power.

01:13:05.920 But I think we all need to challenge power in any way that we can. I think we all need to also

01:13:11.440 hold the Democratic Party accountable, right? Like they shouldn't be allowed to run these

01:13:15.780 unpopular candidates based on nothing anymore and shove them down our throat. This is like the third

01:13:19.880 election they've done that, right? Like first it was with Hillary. Then it was with like, 0.86

01:13:24.240 just vote Biden. It's the most important election of our lifetime. Oh, just vote Kamala. Yeah. We,

01:13:28.500 you know, don't worry about her too much, like whatever. And again, I am not like, yes, Kamala

01:13:32.640 was better than Trump and in so many ways. Right. But I think that we need a Democratic Party that

01:13:37.860 is more accountable to people. And that's more modern. I think we need to take the new media

01:13:40.980 landscape seriously and recognize that this is the world that we live in. You can't just live

01:13:44.740 in denial. You can't just go around doing interviews with PBS and the New York Times and

01:13:48.880 expect to reach people online, you know, voters. And I do think that we need to do a better job

01:13:55.100 of speaking to men, especially young cisgender straight men. Like clearly there's a problem

01:13:59.880 there and clearly they're getting radicalized by these bad people. And there should be more

01:14:05.060 people speaking to them as peers and elsewhere, right? Like we do need to have empathy for these

01:14:10.440 people even teenage boys we need to have empathy for them even though it's hard and it is hard

01:14:17.280 I guess the last thing I want to add is like the only liberal billionaire like truly like

01:14:22.960 outspoken liberal billionaire that I can think of is Mark Cuban and if Mark Cuban wants to

01:14:29.160 start throwing millions of dollars at every left wing podcaster I just want to say

01:14:34.040 that Mark Cuban, my DMs are open. But I hope they do, right? Like I would love for them to like

01:14:43.040 throw money at LGBTQ people, at people of color, at people who haven't traditionally had platforms 1.00

01:14:48.620 that are gaining platforms or that have that spark. But I think we need to build people up

01:14:53.720 too, right? And I think we need a lot of voices that are more progressive and aren't just like

01:14:58.640 the safe people, right? Like I think somebody posted something about George Soros and maybe

01:15:04.180 he gave money to like Pod Save America or something. Like there's no meaningful difference

01:15:08.360 between Pod Save America and the New York Times, in my opinion. Like they're espousing the same

01:15:12.880 capitalist neoliberal ideology. That ideology does not resonate with a lot of young people

01:15:18.480 anymore. And a lot of those people believe in populist messaging and they care about things

01:15:24.800 like economics but they also care about civil liberties and rights and we need we need media

01:15:29.300 that speaks to them mark cuban i'm rooting for you i'll be the intern at the matt bernstein

01:15:37.740 no because i need mark cuban to give you money too yeah give me money mark i gotta pay my rent

01:15:45.160 ay ay ay taylor i know i said it at the top but let's reiterate where can people find more of you

01:15:53.500 now that you are handing it out on your own. Speaking of needing to pay the rent,

01:15:57.980 please subscribe to User Magazine. It's usermag.co, not .com, .co. And it's my newsletter.

01:16:05.800 I send it about two or three times a week. It's like online culture, internet culture,

01:16:10.180 journalism. I also am on YouTube. Please subscribe to my YouTube. That is my project 2025,

01:16:15.680 is getting my YouTube in order. I do post there every week, my podcast, but I'm posting more.

01:16:19.820 So subscribe and yeah, hit me up. I'm just Taylor Lorenz everywhere.

01:16:23.500 Thank you so much for making it this far with us.

01:16:28.720 My God, if you've made it this far in this podcast,

01:16:31.920 that means you're probably consuming other election-related content as well.

01:16:36.260 And I would advise you now, shut your laptop, quit your podcast app,

01:16:42.440 go drink some water, take a walk, enjoy the outdoors.

01:16:47.480 We probably could all spend a couple hours looking at the clouds as they go by.

01:16:53.500 That's how I feel anyway.

01:16:55.520 I love you.

A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - November 15, 2024

How the Right is Winning Young Men (with Taylor Lorenz)

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