00:00:30.000Hello, hello. For anyone who hasn't been following recent left-wing political Twitter
00:00:36.580drama or who doesn't keep up with the iconic drag queen Lady Bunny who posted about said
00:00:43.520drama on Instagram, this has been a long time coming. Allow me to explain. After I interviewed
00:00:50.460Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, a progressive candidate running for U.S. Senate in the state of Michigan,
00:00:57.100his Democratic primary opponent, Mallory McMorrow, reached out to me saying that
00:01:02.300she would like to be interviewed. I was honestly a little surprised by this,
00:01:06.880given that Mallory and I have some key policy disagreements. In her race, Mallory is running0.98
00:01:13.980on the standard Democratic liberal Zionist position of, you know, two-state solution,
00:01:19.940fund the Iron Dome, but Netanyahu bad, but also no sanctions about it, etc. She's also not
00:01:26.820running on Medicare for All. But I wanted to do the interview so I could ask her about those
00:01:32.520positions. Her team and I set a date and a time for the interview. And after I submitted a topic
00:01:38.880list, which included health care and foreign policy, they canceled and offered no time to
00:01:46.300reschedule. I will say, and I don't want to assume intention and I'm willing to be wrong,
00:01:53.080but I do kind of wonder sometimes if because of how I present and the fact that I'm so
00:01:59.740open about who I am that people just think I'm like the gay guy you know who will talk about
00:02:08.100gay things and not much else and not to be too like sex in the city about it but I can't help
00:02:14.840but wonder if they reached out to me thinking I'd just asked Mallory about like her LGBT record you
00:02:21.440know. But in any case, I tweeted that I was disappointed that her team had canceled. And
00:02:27.780the tweet quickly got traction. And within a couple hours, her team reached out and her schedule had
00:02:33.480opened back up and we were back on. So I don't know, maybe an honest scheduling error. Maybe not
00:02:40.420make of it what you will. I had my good friend and host of the majority report, Emma Vigeland,
00:02:46.220Join me for this interview. Love her so much. And without further ado, State Senator Mallory
00:02:53.900McMorrow, welcome to A Bit Fruity. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. I've been following you for
00:02:59.520years, by the way. So this is very exciting for me. Oh, that means so much to me. Seriously,
00:03:05.860though, I know we had like all of this like scheduling drama. And, you know, I know in the
00:03:11.080wake of all of that, you could have very easily just been like, I'm not going to do this one.
00:03:14.820and it would have made sense to me. So it really does mean a lot to me that you're here today. And
00:03:21.220I also know that like a lot of Michigan voters listen to this podcast might see this. And I
00:03:27.600think they're probably really grateful that you're here. Absolutely. And thank you for rolling with
00:03:31.200us. I mean, balancing, you know, running a statewide campaign. I'm the state Senate
00:03:35.560majority whip. So I've got that whole job and I have a five-year-old. So our schedule,
00:03:40.200my scheduler is everything she manages to piece it all together but um i i'm really grateful that
00:03:47.420you rolled with us to make it work yeah absolutely so let's get into it state senator mallory
00:03:53.760mcmorrow you are in this three-person primary race for the u.s senate representing michigan
00:04:00.600that's really captured the attention of the country and i want you to help us characterize
00:04:06.820it a little bit for people who might be hearing about this race for the first time. You have these
00:04:12.500two opponents, right? On one hand, you have Haley Stevens, who is the AIPAC endorsed, super pro
00:04:19.820Israel, sort of an extension of like Chuck Schumer's brand of the Democratic Party, I'd say
00:04:25.100pretty old guard. Haley Stevens was notably booed at her own Michigan Democratic Party convention0.99
00:04:33.560recently. I'll throw a video in there if I can find it. Which was pretty amazing. And then on
00:04:53.900the other side, you have Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, who we interviewed on the show a few weeks ago.
00:04:59.040Dr. El-Sayed is a very progressive candidate, wrote a book on Medicare for all, very pro-Palestine.
00:05:06.840And I think, and please feel free to dispute this characterization, that most people view you as like someone in the middle.
00:05:15.820So I was wondering if you could first just like define yourself in the context of this race.
00:05:21.560For sure. So to put the race into perspective, Michigan has an open U.S. Senate seat. Gary Peters is not seeking re-election. We have Mike Rogers, in all likelihood the nominee, on the Republican side, who ran against Alyssa Slotkin in 2024, lost by only 19,000 votes.
00:05:41.220The Republicans and Trump view this as their best chance to block Democrats from having a path at taking the U.S. Senate.
00:05:51.540They're spending the Senate leadership PAC announced $45 million that they're going to be spending in Michigan, which is more than they will spend in Georgia, Maine, Iowa, Alaska, New Hampshire.
00:06:01.860So this is it. So it makes sense that this is sort of captured the attention of the country.
00:06:07.760And we have a fiercely competitive Democratic primary.
00:06:12.560You do. I should add for so people know, sorry, I don't mean to cut you off.
00:06:16.420But it's like, depending on what poll you look at, which are coming out like relentlessly, it's like neck and neck with the three of you.
00:06:22.700Yeah. And I think that's a good thing. But your characterization is right.
00:06:26.380What I firmly believe is that the Democratic Party needs a reckoning, that the old guard establishment of the party has really let us down.
00:06:38.040The first question I was asked when I got in a year ago was, would you support Chuck Schumer for leader?
00:06:43.500And I said, no, apparently I was the first candidate in the country to say so.
00:06:47.840And what I know is that in Michigan, we have built a very different blueprint.
00:06:54.180So for me, I know that people want to put us into neat little lane boxes. And I just don't think that's how Michiganders think. We have people in our state who voted for both Rick Snyder, Republican governor and Gretchen Whitmer. We have people who voted for Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.
00:07:12.560This is a state where you don't have to register by party and people tend to vote for the person that they like.0.96
00:07:19.880But of the field, I am the establishment outsider, but with a track record of actually getting real shit done.
00:07:28.220I'm the only candidate to have beaten a Republican incumbent to get into office.
00:07:32.320I took on an entrenched family legacy in my first campaign for state Senate.
00:07:36.540And I swung a district 20 points in a single cycle and broke the Republican supermajority.
00:07:41.620um i then helped leverage a viral speech that i gave back in 2022 after i was smeared
00:07:49.160um as a groomer and a pedophile by a colleague of mine i i opened a pack we raised millions of
00:07:56.340dollars i supported a dozen other candidates and flipped the entire state senate for the0.94
00:08:00.280first time in 40 years been there with the groomer and pedophile oh same here actually
00:08:05.140Yeah. And can I tell you, all of your Instagram stories were truly so helpful for us. You may not know this, but a lot of us in the state senate, we've been following you for a while, kind of hitting back on a lot of the culture war bullshit.
00:08:19.640Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And yeah, really appreciate everyone who like stood their ground amidst what I think was hopefully like the height of the culture war bullshit. I'm of the belief that like so much has happened since, especially to like wreck Americans' lives economically, that even the most sort of ardent like anti-drag brunch people are now kind of like, I don't got time for that, you know?
00:08:46.500I will never forget. There was a press conference. Tudor Dixon tried to hold in the middle of the 22 cycle. And she had all these people. And, you know, it was under the guise of protecting girls in sports. And she made this radical claims about what was happening in the state. And there was this incredible local news broadcast that talked about her press conference. And then the reporter pressed her. Can you provide a single example of somebody being hurt in sports in Michigan?
00:09:14.600And she said no. And then they cut away to a protester who was like, I just need affordable housing. Like we I can't afford anywhere to live. And I think that's why, you know, the speech that I gave then blew up the way that it did, because I made a point of saying people who are different are not the reason your health care costs are too high. And we can't let people who are hateful people distract from the fact that they're not actually doing anything to help you.
00:09:39.600Yeah. And I want to talk about some of those economic issues, namely health care. I know going into this, we want to talk about foreign policy and health care, because especially, you know, if you're representing Michigan on the national stage, then, you know, these are things that people really care about.
00:09:56.880So Senator McMorrow, with regard to healthcare, you support a single-payer option, which is
00:10:04.080different from something like Medicare for All or universal healthcare.
00:10:08.700I wanted to play a clip for you that's gotten some traction of you speaking about what you
00:10:14.980see as the risks of universal healthcare and just ask you more about that.
00:10:22.020Also, you're new to the pod and learning that I don't have a producer.
00:10:26.440So when I say like, I'm going to throw something up on the screen, what I mean is I'm going to play the video from my phone into the microphone.
00:10:59.740Yeah, sure. So State Senator McMorrow, it feels like the implication of your framing there is that government health care programs shouldn't be trusted because Trump and RFK Jr. are leading them.
00:11:12.820Are there other programs, specifically health care programs or social programs, you think should be cut because Trump and RFK Jr. are currently in charge of them?
00:11:21.120No, that's not at all what I intended. And, you know, I fundamentally and firmly believe that we need access to universal health care. We need to get there as quickly as possible. In the state Senate, I have led on efforts to codify the Affordable Care Act on the state level so you can't lose your health care with a pre-existing condition.
00:11:40.520we've repealed our 1931 abortion ban we helped expand a program called rx kids statewide which
00:11:47.040is a cash grant program for new moms and babies um we've expanded access to doulas and to midwives
00:11:52.980we've done so much because this is such a big issue and what i know is that people can't afford
00:12:00.600to wait the idea that we should hold out just for one solution to me is just not um what i've
00:12:09.440experienced in governing. You know, the next U.S. senator would be one of a hundred members,
00:12:15.680and the votes for a true single-payer system simply aren't there. Now, there have been multiple
00:12:22.480states who have implemented state-level public options, and in those states, not only have they
00:12:29.540vastly reduced the rate of uninsured to next zero, they've also reduced the cost of private health
00:12:36.060insurance. That is something that as we look to how do we get to universal health care as quickly
00:12:41.560as possible so people aren't going bankrupt, they are not denying themselves care. I am somebody who
00:12:47.340graduated from college right into the recession in 2008 wanting to be a car designer, so I did
00:12:52.460not have health care. I couldn't stay on my parents' plan until 26. Having that real public
00:12:58.400option, anybody who wants to opt into Medicare regardless of age can, while also ensuring if
00:13:05.080you want to keep your plan through your union or through your employer, that you can, I believe,
00:13:11.140is the best way that we can get to universal health care as quickly as possible.
00:13:16.080We can talk about, I think, the merits of the public option versus Medicare for all,
00:13:20.460but the public option would still be run by Donald Trump and RFK Jr. or whoever ends up
00:13:25.180being a Republican if they take over. Additionally, the entire Republican Party is against Medicare
00:13:31.200for all and single payer. So it's almost an assertion that Democrats shouldn't pursue
00:13:36.120Medicare for all or even single payer because potentially Republicans could get back into
00:13:41.000power and control it. I mean, that is the implication of what you said.
00:13:45.360I don't think that it is. I think that's a mischaracterization.
00:16:55.140And what I know after almost a decade as experience in a legislator is that you need to push as far as you possibly can while building the coalition of votes to actually get it across the line.
00:17:09.340And the support for a true single payer system isn't there yet.
00:17:16.480So for me, what I know, I have constituents today who have canceled their ACA plans because they see their premiums have gone through the roof and they're just praying that they don't get sick and don't go to the hospital.
00:17:30.620Allowing for anybody who wants to to opt into Medicare, regardless of age, helps us get on the path to universal health care.
00:17:38.960And I'm also somebody who fundamentally believes states are the laboratories of democracy.
00:17:42.480This is where we try things out. This is how our country was established.
00:17:46.100There has only been one state who's ever attempted a true single payer system, and it was Vermont.
00:17:52.460And they abandoned that 15 years ago when they couldn't figure out how to pay for it and they couldn't figure out the implementation.
00:17:58.340Where we now have three states who are running public option systems within their states that have gotten us much closer to the goal of universal health care.
00:18:09.460So that's how I approach policy is what's our goal and how can we actually ensure that we get there as quickly as possible?
00:18:15.680Moving on, Mallory, an issue that's extremely close to my heart as a Jewish person, as a taxpaying American, as a human being, is that of Palestine.
00:18:27.800I was actually just the other night at a UN commemoration of the anniversary of the Nakba in 1948 when Israel displaced more than 750,000 Palestinians who still don't have the right to return home.
00:18:44.660So when considering people who are running for federal office, people who could determine the future of the U.S. relationship to Israel and the effect that that will have on Palestinians, now the Lebanese people and Iranians, I know this issue is one people who listen to the show, for one, care a lot about.
00:19:04.300And, of course, you are also running in Michigan, which has a large Arab population, which, you know, that was very consequential in the 2024 election when many of them withheld their votes from Kamala Harris as part of the uncommitted movement.
00:19:20.380So I want to make sure people have a really clear understanding of your position.
00:19:25.680Also, for context, your opponent on one side, Abdul El-Sayed, he opposes all funding to
00:19:31.240Israel, and your opponent on the other side, Haley Stevens, is endorsed by AIPAC.
00:22:12.600So Emma, what you're asking is I don't believe the role of a U.S. senator.
00:22:15.820I believe that a senator should have a role in allowing the United States to facilitate
00:22:23.720the negotiation between the Palestinians and the Israelis that gets to a place where there's
00:22:30.100long-term peace, security, and self-determination for Palestinians and long-term peace, security,
00:22:35.740and self-determination for Israelis who all live in the region and have to figure out a way to
00:22:42.420coexist where they're not killing each other. I don't believe that it's the role of a legislator
00:22:46.220to determine where those borders are or how it coexists, but it should be our role to de-escalate
00:22:53.400the conflict. I do not support the Netanyahu government. I think that they have continued
00:23:01.860to push well beyond what is proportionate, what is rational in response to the October 7th attacks
00:23:08.500in a way that is horrifying to watch. I mean, bombing Gaza to be completely uninhabitable,
00:23:19.800the settler violence that you see that while it is technically illegal, they are certainly doing0.71
00:23:25.360nothing to stop it and continue to encourage it. And Matt, you brought this up particularly0.98
00:23:30.000related to our state. We have a very large Lebanese population. A million people in Lebanon
00:23:35.800have been displaced. And I know a friend of mine who's running for state senate mentioned to me
00:23:41.720that his grandmother's home in Lebanon has been bombed three times and that somehow she's still
00:23:48.800in good spirits about the fact that she is alive when many of her neighbors are not.
00:23:54.660So for me, I'm somebody, you know, I bring a background in industrial design into how I pursue policy, which is starting with the outcome and then backing into how do you help facilitate making that happen.
00:24:09.300What I believe is that there is broad shared beliefs across our constituents in both the Jewish community, the Arab community, and frankly, for people who are not directly impacted by this, who are horrified beyond belief at the ongoing violence, suffering, chaos, who simply want the violence to stop and see the United States has played a role in continuing the violence when we need to play a role in ending it.
00:24:35.980And I hear what you're saying about you don't want to draw specific boundaries. I understand that. But I think it's important to dissect what a two state solution would actually entail. Do you believe that that should involve some sort of reparations for Palestinian land that has been stolen?
00:24:54.680Because increasingly, if you look at the map of the West Bank, it's being taken over by Israel. So there would have to be either a forcible removal or Palestinians would have to be crammed into even smaller and smaller territory.0.70
00:25:07.620Yeah. And again, I go back to the United States role. A legislator's role should be in helping to facilitate between the negotiators and something that allows for that peace and security for Palestinians alongside Israelis. I don't believe that that is my role to dictate, to put on to the people who do live there what they should be fighting for for their own lives.0.97
00:25:30.460I want to push back, though, a little bit on, you know, your role as a senator, sort of you're presenting it as like a little bit detached from the peace process there. Whereas like we know that Israel's sort of violent and ongoing expansion now into Lebanon, as you mentioned, it's only possible because of ongoing bipartisan U.S. support.
00:25:54.380And so I wonder if you continue to support defensive weapons infrastructure to Israel, how you see yourself as utilizing any of the leverage you could have as a U.S. senator in this situation.
00:26:11.140And I guess how you think because because like this two state solution line, right, it's the party line for a long, long, long, long time since the 90s.
00:26:21.800And it just hasn't borne out. I think probably everyone on all sides of this issue could agree with that. And so I wonder how you are breaking from the establishment in a way that would materially benefit the people who, frankly, like my tax dollars are killing.
00:26:38.960Yeah, and I'm glad that you framed it that way, because I think there's a difference, Matt, in how you asked your question versus Emma. One is the specific framework of the borders of the nations. The other is what leverage does the Congress have to help facilitate this negotiation?
00:26:58.440I would have voted alongside the 40 out of 47 senators who voted in the past Sanders resolution blocking arms sales. And let's acknowledge how stunning it is that a year ago, that number was significantly smaller than it is today.
00:27:15.460My views on this have evolved because the reality on the ground has evolved. It has been horrifying to watch how Benjamin Netanyahu and the far right government have prosecuted this ongoing war against Palestinians, against Lebanese, against Yemenis in a way that the United States cannot support.
00:27:42.660Simply put, the Congress holds the power of the purse, holds the power of funding and resolutions.
00:27:51.400And that is where I would view my role in coming in is keeping an open door to everybody within our community.
00:27:58.440Michigan is a very diverse state where we have the largest Arab American population living side by side by side with a very significant Jewish population.
00:28:07.220And Matt, your question is the universal truth.
00:28:10.380I was in an Uber a couple of weeks ago, and the driver said almost exactly what you said, which is how can our country afford to continue bombing other countries when we can't pay for our own kids?
00:28:23.400That is where we need to step in and say enough is enough, and we need to bring this to an end.
00:28:27.300Yeah, I mean, you mentioned that how in Michigan, you have people of different faiths, Muslim Jewish people, Arab people living side by side. I think it's very American to believe in multiculturalism as an ethic, in that it engenders understanding. And when you can live alongside people who maybe have different views than you, it reduces the capacity for hatred.
00:28:51.340It's why we don't believe in things like segregation and apartheid.0.59
00:28:58.740And, you know, when we're talking about who has the right to have land and to live in peace, I mean, we're recording this right now on the anniversary of the Nakba.0.60
00:29:10.380And the Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed since, you know, 1948, but prior to that, from the land that is now Israel.
00:29:18.940Do you not believe in multiculturalism as an ethic for Israel and Palestine? Because a shared land would be, in my view, American and also the solution that we saw in South Africa that could provide fairness for everybody involved.
00:29:35.120Yeah, and it may very well be. You know, there are people who have worked on this issue for far longer than I have. And I always try to check my own bias at the door. I can't possibly understand what it is like to live in the middle of the Middle East.
00:29:53.200I can't imagine what it is like to have my home stolen from me, to have my family killed.1.00
00:30:04.260I think it's important for anybody who holds the role of a senator as a legislator to check their own bias at the door, be open and objective.
00:30:15.300And if there is, and I've heard from both the Jewish community and the Arab community, that you're right, Emma, a two-state solution has been something that has been attempted for a very long time.
00:30:24.680We have failed to accomplish that so far.
00:30:28.080Perhaps a multicultural solution where people are living side by side is a better solution.
00:30:32.880But I want that to come from the people who live there.
00:30:36.080It shouldn't be the role of me to assert my views on residents of another country.
00:30:42.580Yeah, I'll move on a little bit. But I think it's just, you know, to me, it's like, Israel, who is the occupying power in this dynamic, I mean, as recognized by international law, does not want a multicultural state. Obviously, that is, you know, when they say, like, oh, you guys want to destroy Israel, what they're talking about is a destruction of the apartheid system, what they're talking about is bringing in equality.0.94
00:31:09.480And so I guess I want to stay on for a second, like, how you could use your leverage as a U.S. senator to stop this violence, which we all agree has to stop, right?
00:31:22.840Like we mentioned, you draw a distinction between Israel's defensive and offensive weapons infrastructure and currently support funding for the defensive part of that, like the Iron Dome.
00:31:36.460I think a lot of people, though, might disagree with that distinction and say that Israel's defensive capabilities enable their offensive capabilities.
00:31:47.540Like, you know, the Iron Dome allows Israel, one might say, to operate with impunity because they don't face the same threat of retaliation.
00:32:01.040As you can imagine, this is a conversation we have every single day in a state like ours, where we have vastly different viewpoints on the right course of action in the Middle East.
00:32:14.300And it is the job to go in with an open mind and to listen and to make the right, most objective decision that I possibly can.
00:32:22.040And as I said at the outset, it is increasingly the view of even Netanyahu himself that he wants to be able to do it on his own and doesn't want to rely on foreign aid.
00:32:35.200There seems to be a recognition that they are going at everything they possibly can and are losing the support of the world.
00:32:43.900They're losing the support of Americans.
00:32:47.340And I will always, my pledge is to always be objective.
00:32:51.540You know, I am not so tied to an individual viewpoint that I'm not willing to change my mind when the facts on the ground change.
00:32:59.260I guess then to that end, why do you support funding to Israel's defense infrastructure?
00:33:08.440What is, I guess, sort of your positive vision in supporting that policy? You know what I mean?
00:33:13.680Because I don't think anybody should live in fear of being bombed or killed.
00:33:18.660I would look at how do we support defensive systems for Palestinians?
00:33:23.060How would we support defensive systems for Lebanese?1.00
00:33:25.720Should they get an iron dome too, the Palestinians?1.00
00:33:28.080Let's talk about that as a conversation.1.00
00:33:30.840Well, I mean, the horror of living in fear of being bombed constantly.
00:33:37.420Let's work with the outcome of how do we end the violence period?
00:33:41.460But then backing away from that, how do we protect people?
00:33:44.580I think then, though, that sort of probes that like maybe we're coming from different worldviews here a little bit because my worldview, and I think one that Emma has been talking about as well, is like multiculturalism, where we live amongst each other and where multiculturalism and a respect for one another keeps us safe.
00:34:02.880And so like, you know, I don't want to talk about like everyone getting their Iron Dome and everyone arming up and everyone getting more and more defensive and offensive and everyone getting more violent and everyone.
00:34:14.320I mean, you know, I just did an episode that actually comes out today, which I'm very excited about with Naomi Klein, about Tucker Carlson's worldview that he has been espousing as of late. And he does view the world that way, where, you know, in America, we should bunker down and have our white Christian nation and everyone else is bunkered down in their own very racialized nations as well with like tons of weapons and we're all segregated.
00:34:42.540and like i just find that to be such a grim reality you know yeah and so i think like i'm
00:34:51.120wondering um if your politics could come from a different place philosophically where it's not
00:34:57.280like what about funding also the palestinian iron dome where it's about taking away the iron dome0.62
00:35:03.640from israel this thing that in my opinion allows them to continue operating as a genocidal apartheid
00:35:09.760state unchecked. Well, and I think where you and I find agreement here is exactly that. Ideally,0.98
00:35:15.860we should be at a place where we're not armed to the teeth against each other. We are a
00:35:20.480multicultural society in our country, and yet we have more guns than we have people in the United
00:35:25.900States. I sat on the state Senate floor below four men with AR-15s and full tactical vests who,
00:35:33.800I promise you wanted me dead. That is not the world that I want to live in. The goal, yes,
00:35:40.500is let's have multicultural societies where we're not attacking each other. I do start at that place.
00:35:47.180And I want to make sure that I go in recognizing that I would have a responsibility. I have a
00:35:54.740responsibility today as a state senator to check my personal beliefs at the door sometimes and
00:36:00.800make decisions that are in the best interest of protecting as many people as possible.
00:36:04.820And do you think the Iron Dome is in service of that?
00:36:10.660I would love to get to a place where it's not needed, period, for anybody.
00:36:17.180Okay. Do you believe Israel has committed and is committing a genocide?
00:36:23.460yeah we went through this on on our campaign um based on the legal definition i've said this um
00:36:33.880i do believe that it meets the definition what i also heard in response from many of my
00:36:39.700constituents who had family that they lost in the holocaust is there is such a personal visceral
00:36:46.040reaction to that word that moves us apart from each other. And when I believe that most people0.98
00:36:55.300in both the Jewish community and the Arab community and people who are not impacted
00:36:59.500want the same outcome, why would we spend our time debating whether or not you agree with the
00:37:08.920definition of a word and recognizing we have the coalition who wants the same thing? How do we keep
00:37:13.580them together? I think that the definition is important because of international law. And we're
00:37:19.300seeing right now the Trump administration and, frankly, the Biden administration was also a part
00:37:26.220of the degradation of international law and the rules-based international order. And, you know,
00:37:32.360there was a Quinnipiac poll from August 2025. This has probably increased since then, that 77%
00:37:39.520of Democrats over half of independents believe that Israel is committing genocide. Don't you0.78
00:37:45.080think that it's important to articulate that just to support international law at a time when the
00:37:53.720foreign policy of the United States and by extension Israel is might makes right? I think
00:37:59.280it is important to listen to everybody that I would be asking for faith and trust to represent
00:38:05.380and to build the coalition that we need to hit the same goals.
00:38:10.000There is no doubt that war crimes have been committed.
00:38:12.720There is no doubt that the pain and suffering at the vast expense of our taxpayer dollars,0.85
00:38:19.920Matt, to your point that we continue to pay for this, needs to end.
00:38:24.760And I want to keep my people together at a moment when so much of the emphasis is,
00:38:33.040I really, really don't with like the genocide label. But I think to me, identifying it as a
00:38:39.540genocide is important to, like Emma said, give an internationally understood and legal label
00:38:45.640to what is currently happening to a group of people. And to me, like anyone's feelings about
00:38:53.320that word, I think are not as important as like recognizing what is still happening to people
00:38:59.020right now which is a genocide under international law you know how does your family feel about it
00:39:06.820how are those conversations going uh well you know it depends on the family depends on the
00:39:14.880family member and uh and it's it's tense but ultimately i assume you know you're asking that
00:39:20.060because i'm jewish and you'd be right for that because it's especially intergenerationally it's
00:39:24.640tense conversation because people have, you know, different levels of, you know, Zionist
00:39:29.300indoctrination and also differing sort of proximities to the Holocaust and the timeline.
00:39:34.020But I think, though, the difficult conversations that are happening within my family are less
00:39:40.500important than the reality of what is happening to the Palestinian people.
00:39:45.060So we've had those same conversations. My husband is Jewish. And though I'm a step removed,
00:39:51.220There are certainly really, really hard conversations, to your point, among generations within families.
00:39:58.840I respectfully disagree, and I believe the responsibility of a legislator, somebody who represents, I'm asking for the trust to represent 10 million people in a very diverse state that is a purple state that could very easily go to the Republicans.
00:40:16.900um my greatest joy in this job as a legislator is when I get to help people one-on-one and when
00:40:22.820I get to be a part of their story and keeping coalitions together is hard work and I believe
00:40:32.140we can respect international law and the ICC and have a legislator who respects their stances and
00:40:39.080understands that in order to move forward to the goal that I think all of us on this call share
00:40:44.480is to keep a state like mine together and to not let this issue tear people apart.
00:40:52.580Because if we let it tear us apart, we get Mike Rogers, Trump gets a win.
00:40:59.340And there is no love lost on the other side of the aisle here
00:41:05.700with an administration that allowed Benjamin Netanyahu to convince us to go to war with Iran.
00:41:12.060I think, you know, because we're still in the primary, especially like I'm pressing, you know, Democrats a little bit more on this because we're not yet really talking about the general. And, you know, you say that it's more important to keep the coalition together than to sort of fracture over this one issue.
00:41:31.680But I don't know. I think for me, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic at all, I promise, but sort of when I look at what a candidate like Dr. Abdul El-Sayed is doing around this issue, it doesn't feel like we actually have to abandon dignity and actual justice for Palestinians to keep that coalition together.
00:41:57.180I mean, like we said at the beginning, you guys are all, you know, neck and neck.
00:42:00.340Yeah, and I agree with you. I don't think we need to either. And that's not my goal at all.
00:42:04.840I guess, you know, on this topic, we've exhausted it a little bit. But you also have groups like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the Israeli organization itself, B'Tselem, calling it a genocide.
00:42:19.940So I read that out just because I think that when we're talking about how to keep a coalition together, the 77% of Democrats that think Israel is committing genocide, the 90% of Democrats that have a negative view of Israel or don't want to send them more money, that would, I would imagine, be the position that would be as unifying as possible because it appears like this is kind of a consensus opinion now within the Democratic base.
00:42:49.940I mean, I hear that it's reflective in polls and reading polls and asserting how campaigns should be run based off of polls is not a way that you win in a state like ours.
00:43:03.780And Matt, I hear that you don't want to talk about the general.
00:43:05.620Well, it's both polls and morality, both polls and international law and morality.
00:43:10.400And talking about morality, Trump put out an AI generated video of Trump Gaza, and has told us, we cannot afford daycare, we cannot afford Medicare, we cannot afford Medicaid. And not only that, but that states should tax themselves even more to pay for those selfish things, so that we can pay for a war that he took us into because Netanyahu convinced him to do so.
00:43:38.300And every single Republican in the House and the Senate refused to vote on the War Powers Resolution. So I agree. You'll find agreement. And I live and serve in a deeply purple state that has to focus on November and Mike Rogers and the tens of millions of dollars that will be funneled into this state because it is a coalition of as many people in the state as possible.0.87
00:44:06.520You don't win in Michigan without independents. You don't win in Michigan without Republicans. So it is keeping the Democrats together, keeping the Democrats engaged, keeping our diverse communities together to recognize we have the shared goals. We do.
00:44:23.520and it's hard work and it's work that i'm in every single day so hopefully you see there's there's not
00:44:30.080disagreement here but it is the work every single day in um keeping our people together so that we
00:44:37.260don't lose a seat to somebody who would rubber stamp everything trump wants to do who will
00:44:42.520certainly not end this war or secure security for palestinians anytime soon if it were up to him
00:44:49.600Yeah. And I'll wrap up. I know you probably have to run busy day running a campaign. I think neither of us would argue that like every Republican is doing all of this and worse, you know, much worse. And none of us would argue, you know, in favor of anything Trump is doing.0.87
00:45:07.240I just think, especially, you know, during a primary season, when we are, you know, being given the chance to put our, you know, what we think is our best Democrat forward, that we're, you know, pushing you on some of these issues, because I think something that I'm sure you've heard, is that a lot of Democratic voters feel like we have an establishment that isn't fighting sufficiently.
00:45:27.560And I 100% agree with you. This is a party that's not meeting this moment, not only on this issue, but on voting rights, on civil rights, on childcare and healthcare and housing. There's so much at stake here, which is why I'm doing what I can.
00:45:46.260I believe truly that we built a blueprint in Michigan in the legislature when we flipped control of the legislature for the first time in my entire lifetime that we can take with us to Washington and build a party that knows how to fight and knows how to win and knows how to actually get things done for people.
00:46:05.560Totally. And I just want to mention, like, you know, as a New Yorker, I got to rep my city and, you know, push back on the idea that we have to make these sort of like middle of the road concessions on some of these issues, especially like a humanitarian issue.
00:46:19.700You know, we had Mayor Zoran Mamdani, who just won in my city. And, you know, one in 10 Mamdani voters also voted for Trump. There was a small but mighty MAGA for Mamdani coalition. And you know what, it's confounding, but that's, I guess, yeah, it's amazing. It's how the world works.
00:46:40.580And, you know, he's someone who who really didn't concede on his on his beliefs on any of these issues.
00:46:45.220So, of course, I would be remiss if I did not encourage you to do the same.
00:46:50.260Mallory, thank you so much for joining today.
00:47:01.840I've been really enjoying talking to candidates, honestly, more than I thought I would.
00:47:05.980and making these sort of like auxiliary episodes has just been a sort of nice
00:47:10.620creative outlet for me in addition to like the conceptual episodes we make over here
00:47:15.500I want to thank Mallory again for coming on and giving us her time especially given that
00:47:22.240she probably knew we'd disagree on some things she was gracious for that truly and I owe it to
00:47:29.940you, the listener, to say that I struggle to make sense of some of what Mallory McMorrow put forth
00:47:36.740here, particularly as it pertains to the funding of Israel's defense infrastructure. She initially
00:47:43.500defended that policy by saying it's what keeps people safe, but I don't know. Does it? I think
00:47:50.720it keeps one group of people safe while enabling the ongoing violent oppression of another group
00:47:57.620of people. But toward the end of the conversation, she backed away from defending that policy on its
00:48:04.460merits, instead saying, sometimes we as politicians must put our personal beliefs aside for the sake
00:48:12.580of building a larger coalition. And okay, but as Emma said, there's tons of emerging data that
00:48:19.340shows continued aid to Israel is no longer a popular position in the Democratic Party,
00:48:24.560To which Mallory said that she isn't running a campaign on polling data. Fair enough. But if you're not running on polling data, and you're also not running off of your belief system, then I struggle to make sense of where exactly these policy positions are coming from.
00:48:45.080And to me, it's this opaqueness in decision making that is the frustrating thing about the Democratic establishment, which Mallory claims to be breaking from.
00:48:58.400Anyway, that's my show. Hope you liked it. Hope you enjoyed being here on an off week. I did.
00:49:05.580Let me know if you want more of these auxiliary episodes or if you never want to hear from politicians again on this podcast.
00:49:12.460I don't know I think it's fun to probe