00:00:00.000When I think about the spread of gender ideology, I actually, I liken it a lot to another internet cult of the 2010s, which would have been ISIS.0.73
00:02:02.640They deserve to have their stories heard,
00:02:04.600not because they're at odds with the life-saving, gender-affirming care that trans people need.
00:02:09.800In fact, I think that they can make it better
00:02:11.700because the perspectives of the relatively small number of people
00:02:14.780who don't ultimately pursue a lifelong transition
00:02:17.360can contribute to better care not only for others who detransition, but also for trans people.
00:02:23.820But unfortunately, that's not what's been happening on the world stage, and especially
00:02:28.520not on the national stage here in the United States. The political right has found value in
00:02:33.920exploiting the stories of detransitioners in their ongoing war against transgender people,0.99
00:02:38.540pitting them at odds with one another, and paying detransitioners willing to participate0.67
00:02:43.080in that narrative with podcasting contracts, White House visits, and, of course, money.
00:02:49.100These incentives have created some celebrity detransitioners, the biggest of which is Chloe0.75
00:02:54.820Cole, a 20-year-old who, at the time we're recording this, was at the White House yesterday0.64
00:02:59.700lobbying against what she calls radical gender ideology. Just a couple weeks ago, the White
00:03:06.020House held an event for Detrans Awareness Day and invited a bunch of right-wing detransitioner0.55
00:03:11.480micro-influencers to Washington, D.C. for it. Today, we're going to be talking about one Maya0.99
00:03:17.180Poet, the detrans-influencer I mentioned above, who detransitioned because October 7th, I guess.0.98
00:03:25.660It's a whole thing. We'll get into it. We're going to discuss everything I've learned about
00:03:30.740this person, her grift, what I think is the tragedy at the heart of the center of it,
00:03:35.220And what she has or hasn't received for packaging her story into a right-wing media commodity.0.97
00:03:42.660And while Maya Poet is just one person, I think she's managed to simultaneously tell the story of the D-trans grift at large in a way that's, yes, laughable, but also quite sad.0.98
00:03:55.280You know, just like Shaka Khan is every woman, Maya Poet is kind of every D-trans grifter.1.00
00:14:00.460So they threaten to pull Maya's tuition unless she travels somewhere and, like, starts going to school, like, somewhere in the United States, which I guess they claim is, like, poisoning her with, like, I don't know, thoughts of, like, gender ideology or whatever.
00:14:14.200The woke ideology. The woke gender ideology.0.77
00:14:27.960good shopping it's a haven for the lgbt i guess but that's actually what i was gonna point out
00:14:34.460because famously israel touts its own progressiveness when it comes to lgbtq issues0.80
00:14:41.000often as i've discussed in other episodes of this podcast as what i believe is pinkwashing or0.62
00:14:46.860diverting attention away from crimes against humanity it's committing elsewhere this is kind
00:14:52.380of a part of Maya Poets story that doesn't really add up to me. Because if your parents are making
00:14:57.980you go to a place where you're like, less likely to pursue being transgender, why Israel?
00:15:03.880Yeah, I mean, I think that Israel isn't actually that pro LGBT in all reality. But
00:15:10.340of the places to go, it's certainly a choice. It's certainly a choice.
00:15:15.960So Maya goes to Israel and lives in Israel for a few years as a trans man. And my understanding
00:15:22.040of this is that she never actually undergoes any sort of medical transition, but she does
00:15:28.540socially transition. And I believe that she's not even really out as trans. She's living
00:15:33.780quote unquote stealth as a man, which maybe you want to explain what that means.
00:15:38.560Well, I mean, first and foremost, I have questions. Okay. Stealth for a lot of trans
00:15:44.560people essentially means that you're living in a way where the people around you don't know that
00:15:49.220you're transgender. And generally, this is done for safety. It was something that was a little
00:15:54.040bit more common in the olden days when there were no protections against discrimination for trans
00:16:00.940folks. I was stealth for a very short period of time in my life. I also came up during a time
00:16:06.160where that was more of the standard. It wasn't really a thing to be transgender and then to
00:16:12.780very publicly talk about being transgender and then be known as trans because it just wasn't
00:16:18.980safe, frankly. So a lot of the people that I came up with, stealth was like the end goal,
00:16:25.420because that was one of the only ways you could viably function in a society. And it's something
00:16:31.340that I would say is a little bit more common in more conservative spaces where that really would
00:16:37.460be a bit more scary. I really didn't stop being stealth and stop intentionally trying to be
00:16:44.040stealth until I moved to Los Angeles, because I didn't live around a lot of very accepting people.
00:16:50.520And it's funny, because every time I visit Orange County, I sometimes forget that I was stealth when
00:16:56.220I was in Orange County, because I always run into these people who, you know, because I'm so out and
00:17:02.420open in LA, but in the OC, there are people that knew me, but didn't know that I was trans. And so
00:17:07.640that's always funny when I run into them, because I'm very much more open about things these days.
00:17:12.620Sure, sure. In an interview that Maya would later give to the New York Post, she describes sort of her motivations, I guess, for for being trans. And I want you to read a quote from that that I pulled here. So I'm going to send this to you.
00:17:27.720She says, there was no lesbian culture by the time I was coming of age because gender ideology totally destroyed it, said Maya, who is from Pacific Northwest and asked to withhold her last name for privacy reasons.0.63
00:17:49.180So when I said at the top of the episode that Maya Poet is every D trans influencer, this is kind of what I mean. She clearly before becoming a D trans influencer had studied the notes of like, what does the right love to hear right now? What narratives are they just sinking their claws into?
00:18:08.840And one of those narratives we know is this idea that all lesbians are becoming trans men.0.92
00:18:17.500Like, Ariel Scarcella, who's like a right-wing lesbian YouTuber, she loves to talk about how it's like, all the lesbians are becoming trans men.0.80
00:18:29.060I mean, stuff like this is annoying to me because it relies a lot on people not having access to these spaces and these people, you know, what's true is that there are more people who are opening themselves up to transition now versus 20 years ago, right?
00:18:49.600Like for me, there are perceptibly, I would say more trans people and more people who feel like we currently live in a society that's more accepting of it and they have transitioned. Right. But I wouldn't say that there's like an increase of like specifically lesbians transitioning to, you know, trans men. That's not really something I've personally seen.
00:19:12.580Now, of course, I will state I am a very tragically heterosexual woman, you know, unfortunately.
00:19:27.540I wish I could be attracted to women.0.99
00:19:28.900But alas, my perception from just my sapphic friends is that lesbians have often had more0.99
00:19:35.020of a complex relationship with gender in general.
00:19:37.880and I know that there's a big debate about like are you like mask or are you trans mask and like
00:19:44.940are you a stud or are you you know trans mask like there is contention around like that a little bit
00:19:51.640but like first of all I think that sapphic women lesbian specifically there's there is a struggle0.93
00:19:57.520to find content for sure but I have not really seen like I'm thinking of like a lot of the lesbian
00:20:03.300creators that I've known I can think of one one who is now trans masculine it's not a trend if
00:20:11.060I'm thinking of like people who have made a job at like being visible lesbian creators there's
00:20:17.360one I could think of off the top of my head that has transitioned yeah so I don't really know where
00:20:22.240they're getting that from I could see maybe that being a complex conversation about you know with0.94
00:20:27.140lesbian spaces and such but like when it comes to like the lesbian creators keeping in mind that
00:20:31.280i've been doing this for for 20 years and so i've i know a lot of these people i haven't i can't
00:20:35.500think of many that have transitioned at all so that does sound like saying what they know that
00:20:40.400conservatives want to hear that does kind of sort of seem like that or literally just repeating
00:20:44.400arielle scarsella who's been doing it for a very long time this like anti-trans stuff or honestly0.90
00:20:51.060like jk rowling like jk rowling loves to like white knight for lesbians is she a lesbian no okay
00:20:58.580but she's but she's just got a lot of opinions about it she's just always on twitter like1.00
00:21:05.460the lesbian population is disappearing and and then you'll have a bunch of cis lesbians in the
00:21:11.020replies being like what what are you talking about like this is also not something i've ever heard
00:21:17.600like i have many lesbian friends and i would you know just like to point out that all of them are
00:21:22.880completely trans friendly yeah people i think like especially like jk rowling love to to make
00:21:29.100it seem like you know trans people are posing a threat to cis lesbians and yeah specifically
00:21:35.040yeah and i've just not seen that it's because they function as like an art a point in an argument0.99
00:21:40.320right because because usually the way this conversation goes is lesbians like cis women
00:21:46.280and only cis women that is that's like where it starts right so any context where you know there's
00:21:52.720a possibility of a romantic or sexual interaction right which is like basically every context
00:21:58.560it's predatory right and these people are trying to force these women who only like cis women into0.97
00:22:06.680liking someone with a dick right that's the way that they always think of it as all trans women0.99
00:22:11.600have dicks that's it right and so it ends up being this thing where now we have to protect0.99
00:22:17.420lesbian women who of course are transphobic right we're we're getting we're granting from this0.99
00:22:22.040premise are they're inherently exclusionary and they're inherently hateful of trans people so they0.94
00:22:27.780don't want to be around them we have to save them you hear this from straight men and straight women
00:22:32.800all the time when in reality my experience with lesbians just the ones i've known maybe i i just0.81
00:22:39.800know a lot of cool silver lake lesbians far more accepting of gender diversity than like i would
00:22:47.800say gay men are frankly like i said earlier like lesbians have often had a complex relationship
00:22:53.600with gender in general so gender bending and things like that is is often a little bit more
00:22:58.980understood and i know for from my own friend group that there are people who are more than0.95
00:23:06.160comfortable with trans women being in their spaces and such because that's not from their
00:23:12.800own experience a threat to them you know and so it is interesting how there's this narrative of
00:23:18.160cis lesbian women being so exclusionary of trans folks because i haven't really seen that to be
00:23:24.760the case i would like to take a quick break from the show to give a huge thanks to incogni for
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00:24:57.660the code fruity now let's get back to the show okay so maya poet is in israel as a trans man
00:25:06.880because i guess at this point he never had lesbian role models because they were all disappearing to
00:25:14.060trans men quote all the lesbians i knew were transitioning and so did maya in israel so i'll
00:25:20.320just say this because this was something i thought of earlier so maybe i'm ignorant it's very possible
00:25:25.100that i am ignorant here but usually for trans men there's a lot that's kind of required for them to
00:25:32.860start like passing being perceived as a cis man right obviously same for trans women too but like
00:25:40.200i'm fascinated by so they weren't on hormones they weren't out as trans they were just binding
00:25:46.840and socially transitioning and were able to pass and be seen as a man and and be stealth
00:25:54.480in israel see again maybe this just sounds ignorant there's layers of premises that i
00:25:59.580have a hard time granting i guess just file away your the the holes that you might be poking in
00:26:05.640the story i guess just file them away okay as they come you know like like like put them put
00:26:11.160them in the filing cabinet and we'll come back to it okay october 7th 2023 comes around and i would
00:26:19.620like for you to read this new york post headline it's the headline of the article that we've been
00:26:24.220pulling some quotes from october 7th made me realize being trans is a luxury belief so i'm
00:26:30.660detransitioning wow it's just again it feels like this was a headline that was concocted in a lab0.57
00:26:39.260to upset me i try i detransitioned because of october 7th i'm trying to understand the logic
00:26:45.440and it's not logicking well it's about to logic even less so
00:26:49.840according to maya's own self-mythology she was in her apartment on october 7th when sirens
00:27:01.640started blaring because of the massacre at the nova music festival and as she ran for shelter
00:27:08.300she did not have time to grab her chest binder and in that moment she realized that thinking
00:27:16.640about gender was quote a luxury belief and you're not a dude if you don't have your binder on like
00:27:22.840that's weird to me i don't know that's weird it's it's luxury anyway no please it just doesn't make
00:27:30.960sense how does not being able to bind your chest which i understand is a thing that would like you
00:27:37.000know give you you know gender euphoria and make you know there's reasons why you're doing it in
00:27:41.900a life or death situation, you know, granting the premise of this, why would you feel like
00:27:48.300the most important thing in that conversation is for you to grab your, your binder. And if
00:27:52.860you don't grab your binder, somehow that makes a large statement about whether or not you're
00:27:58.360trans or whether or not being trans is something you can continue doing. Because I guess to
00:28:03.980me, I guess the way that I'm looking at it is, you know, the things that I've done to
00:28:08.280affirm my gender in my life are not the things that are required for me personally to accept
00:28:13.960my gender and to understand who I am right I'm not trans because I wear makeup and because I0.97
00:28:21.800have tits and ass that's not why I'm trans because that's who I am whether I have something on or not0.93
00:28:29.620doesn't you know really shift that for me it's just not computing to me because I guess if I0.99
00:28:36.860was getting bombed would it be cool if i grabbed my my my tucking panty sure sure sure but i will
00:28:45.220eventually find a new pair of underwear do you know i mean right it doesn't really like yes
00:28:50.300binders are like i guess you could say those are a luxury but if you are someone who has gender
00:28:55.340dysphoria and you being in your body kind of requires you to do that you will find a way and
00:29:02.020that's kind of the difference i think between some of these people that i've heard their stories
00:29:06.580Right. And I think that's kind of why sometimes people end up having not so favorable attitudes about detransitioners, because for some of us who are trans, right, there's nothing that would ever get us to stop being trans.
00:29:18.460There's nothing. And us being trans doesn't rely on whether or not we have our binder or our tucking panty or our packers or it's that stuff is nice.
00:29:30.000they help you know people living with dysphoria be a little bit more livable right but we will
00:29:35.840make a we'll make do you don't have your binder you're gonna figure out a way to bind your chest
00:29:40.520that's not maybe important right now but once you're a bit more comfortable you will eventually0.97
00:29:45.400find that shit because it's important to you sometimes when i listen to some of these people0.97
00:29:50.440talk about this stuff it's like you're you detransitioned because we have a very different0.99
00:29:56.240way of looking at our genders like it wasn't that deep for you and that's valid that's fine but for
00:30:02.120a lot of people it is and just because you didn't have that experience with gender doesn't mean other
00:30:08.240people aren't you know like you weren't trans that's great that doesn't mean i'm not too and
00:30:13.160that's the issue i have with grifters i know we're getting so off topic but um this quite literally0.77
00:30:18.540is topic so they like to make the argument that because it turned out not to be a good thing
00:30:25.260for them that somehow some way it must not be good for other people that's why on the white
00:30:31.500house is doing detrans awareness day and shit like that because they want to like make a point
00:30:36.620that there are people who transition and then regret it and then detransition right but they0.61
00:30:42.120don't understand that like a lot of us who are trans even if we detransition for a moment we're
00:30:47.340going to retransition most people do because those of us who are actually trans there's nothing that
00:30:53.060will get us to stop. It's us actually being trans and living with gender dysphoria and needing to
00:30:59.820be genuine with ourselves, you know, and not being able to be livable otherwise, right? For a lot of
00:31:05.980us, that will always be the thing. We might detransition for a moment, but the vast majority
00:31:10.460of people will retransition. And I wish that people recognize that, you know, we also don't
00:31:16.400tend to categorize detransitioning in one particular way. For a lot of people, detransitioning
00:31:22.820could be that they had a negative reaction to hormones and they can't take hormones for a bit.
00:31:27.780That might be a detransition. It could also be that they don't have access to it anymore. That
00:31:34.820can be a detransition. Just because someone isn't transitioning doesn't mean that they regret being
00:31:40.060trans. Also, it doesn't mean that they're transphobic. Most detransitioners still, in so
00:31:46.140many ways, rely on gender affirming care and access to it. So there's just a lot of false1.00
00:31:51.000dichotomies i again we haven't even gone through the whole story but like it's telling to me
00:31:55.600that like the binder and being being able to leave the binder behind if we're buying into
00:32:01.680this mythology was the one thing that got them to realize that they weren't trans and this was all0.84
00:32:06.740like luxury bullshit because like that just doesn't compute to me and i think a lot of people
00:32:12.840who would be dysphoric enough to bind their chest well and it feels also specifically like it like0.94
00:32:19.400plays directly into the audience that Maya is clearly trying to accrue which is full of people
00:32:24.700who do think that being trans is a costume like drag that when you take it off you're you know
00:32:30.140out of drag yeah and that it's all just a luxury that you know we we entertain too much I mean
00:32:36.280that's also kind of like the the subtle narrative being made um about trans folks people often will
00:32:42.420see like the Dylan Mulvaney's or some of the more popular well-off trans women and say oh these
00:32:48.420trans people they're all just living it up but why can't i live live it up like them right oh0.99
00:32:53.980it's because they have these luxury lifestyles where they're being rewarded like they create1.00
00:32:58.580these narratives in their hot their minds where being trans is something that people who have
00:33:02.940money and are luxury luxurious do it you know and and and then that doesn't allow them to recognize
00:33:08.360that the vast majority of trans people live below the poverty line right and that of course the
00:33:12.800people who you see on the internet are going to be people who have resources and are privileged
00:33:16.860because they have the ability you know it's like abc one two three but people's perceptions are so
00:33:22.320limited that when they see a trans person online especially doing a bit better than them they think
00:33:27.940that tranny that shouldn't have it you know unfortunately that is a thing that gets a lot
00:33:33.460of people going why do these trans people get this just slight advocacy for trans people people feel0.99
00:33:39.620like we don't deserve it ever you know because a lot of people are relying on the narrative of the
00:33:45.880of the dejected, oppressed trans person who they can feel a bit better about. So yeah, to me,
00:33:53.040like, you can tell there's some pandering going on. People on Reddit were talking about the
00:33:57.100relevance of the fact that Maya Poet has never medically transitioned, not because whether or
00:34:03.420not you've medically transitioned determines, like, if you're actually trans deep down,
00:34:07.660obviously, but because so much of what these D trans activists fight for and argue against
00:34:14.460is this idea that like medical transition is dangerous for people. And so Maya Poet has never
00:34:22.200undergone any sort of medical transition. One person wrote, of course, medical transition
00:34:26.580isn't inherently what makes you trans. The point is that when people use detransitioners as a
00:34:31.780talking point, it's used to argue against medical transition because of the quote unquote irreversible
00:34:37.300damage to healthy bodies. Someone who never medically transitioned does not have a horse
00:34:42.700in that race. And I feel like this is actually kind of a common theme with a lot of these D-trans1.00
00:34:48.680influencers is many of them aren't actually, quote unquote, victims of the things that they're0.58
00:34:55.080advocating against. You know, some like Maya have never medically transitioned. So it's like,
00:35:00.240how can you become this like personal warrior against medical transition? But also, and I think
00:35:05.840this is way more common, a lot of them transitioned as adults, and yet they'll kind of take the mic0.64
00:35:11.780and start rhapsodizing about how dangerous medical transition is for children and sort
00:35:16.800of be like, oh, you know, all these horrible things happened to me by the doctors and the
00:35:21.480gender cabal and they're doing it to children.0.67
00:35:24.320And it's like, wait, but you made those decisions as like a 20 something year old, right?0.84
00:35:28.560What's annoying to me about this, too, is a lot of this is a response to the hurdles
00:35:36.060Like, is it a little bit easier for people to gain access to gender affirming care now?
00:35:40.080Yeah. And that's a good thing. Because in the olden days, people used to like have to sell themselves in order to do it because it was so expensive to gain any access. It was so impossible to gain any access. It was so much harder in the olden days. And I don't think most people have an appreciation for that. And medical transition is kind of for most of us, it is important. Not every trans person medically transitions. And I want to make it super clear that it's not a requirement.1.00
00:36:08.940But for people who do have gender dysphoria and do feel that their biology is working against them, the way their body is developing is working against them, it is life or death.
00:36:21.160And people who don't feel that way and haven't really had that experience, I don't think are necessarily the best to have some of the murkier conversations that we should be having about why some people detransition.0.93
00:36:35.340because I think there are a lot of things to learn from detransitioners for sure.
00:36:40.660But it is interesting to me how frequently a lot of these people haven't really navigated0.83
00:36:45.380through a lot of these things. They really experienced being accepted in a space. And
00:36:51.480then they're kind of upset, I guess, with that. That's kind of one thing I've noticed too.
00:36:55.060And let's just myth bust for a second, because another really common idea that these detrans0.99
00:37:00.480influencers love to push out. And now, you know, on the world stage at places like the White House1.00
00:37:06.160is this idea that it's like you like walk into the doctor, you're like, I would like to be
00:37:11.140transgender, please. And they like hand you a prescription for like hormones and surgeries.
00:37:15.760Yeah, no, no, that's not happening. Could you maybe like color that in with some of your own
00:37:20.520experience? Yeah, so I will say that my own experience may not be reflective of today's
00:37:26.360current process, but I will share my own experience because I think it's very relevant. So for me
00:37:31.540personally, when I first recognized that HRT was what I needed to do, I was so determined to do it
00:37:39.140that I started doing it basically the black market way, where I would buy from sources that might not
00:37:45.720have been super reputable. And I would get information about my dosages and everything
00:37:51.140from like yahoo groups way way way way way back in the day that dates me a bit and that was like
00:37:57.000the way that a lot of trans women who didn't have access would go about gaining access to hrt so
00:38:04.700you have to start with an understanding that for a lot of people who do need hrt that is how
00:38:12.120serious it is it is so serious that we're willing to buy from potentially unreputable websites or
00:38:18.620people because there's a street level to this too, where, you know, in certain cities, especially
00:38:23.020there's like a guy who sells hormones and then some girls will go and like do sex work to make0.98
00:38:27.820the money to buy from that guy. You know, that's the start, right? So when I was trying to change0.98
00:38:34.420my gender marker in such an LA, I needed to prove legally that I was on hormones. So I needed to go0.91
00:38:41.600through the official path, right? So what that required is that I have several therapy sessions,
00:38:47.620which were expensive um that was another hurdle fortunately i was able to eventually find some
00:38:52.780free therapy but i had to get some therapy done i had to have those people write me a letter that
00:38:57.620i then took to a doctor who then got me on hormones that was a long process and then i
00:39:04.660had to prove from my doctor that i was on hormones for over a year then i could go and legally change
00:39:11.400my gender marker that's in california other places you have to like actually get surgery
00:39:18.120so the path for trans women changing their gender markers in other states is way more severe right0.99
00:39:24.140so if you want to get surgeries you would have to also go to a therapist and you would also have to
00:39:29.900get that signed off on and then you would take that letter to that you know person who would
00:39:35.560also evaluate you and that you know so i think from what i can piece together things are a little
00:39:41.080bit more accessible now, but it's never been a one and done process. And also what I hate about
00:39:46.980the narrative, especially about like kids getting surgeries is that one of the common things that
00:39:52.900you have to do with trans surgeries is give HRT time. You know, like if you just started hormones
00:40:00.860and you get your appointment for a breast augmentation, like the first month of your
00:40:07.720transition, you're not actually going to be able to get the result that you probably will be happy
00:40:14.100with because you don't have any space to put that yet. You know, that'll just be putting a balloon
00:40:19.260under a hard piece of skin, right? So you need to give your body time to develop because what
00:40:24.200will happen is if you do it too quickly, your hormones will start to like fill that part in
00:40:28.340and it might not look the way that it looks, right? So with most surgeries, you have to give
00:40:33.480it time. You have to give it time in order for it to be a successful surgery. They're especially not
00:40:39.120giving kids sex changes. That's another one of those surgeries where, you know, it kind of
00:40:43.400requires you some time. You got to get hair removal if you're having bottom surgery and
00:40:48.420things like none of this is an easy, quick process. And if it was, if it was, we probably
00:40:55.600wouldn't be having the conversations we're having right now about how trans people need some of the,
00:41:01.220you know, some of that to be subsidized, right? Because it's such a expensive, long, and often1.00
00:41:07.760uncomfortable process. So this idea that people are walking in and just getting approved,
00:41:14.640it's just not a thing. It's just not a thing. One of the murky conversations that people have
00:41:22.140that I know comes up a lot with detransitioners is sometimes when you are defab, there's a way0.82
00:41:28.720that some people can internalize being a woman wait defab designated female at birth sometimes
00:41:35.560when you're designated female at birth there's a way some people internalize how the society is
00:41:40.660treating them as a woman especially if you're someone who um has experienced sexual violence
00:41:45.980and things like that sometimes people who have been going through that will think that they're
00:41:51.740trans or wanting to distance yourself from femininity or being perceived as a woman which
00:41:57.940is a really common response to sexual violence sometimes is a thing that can present similarly
00:42:04.280as gender dysphoria so i know that there have been some people who have detransitioned who
00:42:09.120recognized that that they weren't um necessarily trans men but that they had discomforts with
00:42:15.480femininity that related to sexual violence and those are like i think some real valuable0.97
00:42:22.120conversations to be had um with detransitioners and such but you know a lot of this other shit0.94
00:42:29.020is just conservative propaganda and that's kind of the frustrating thing about this narrative0.95
00:42:34.700a lot of what sells in terms of like what you can use to grift with conservatives is not necessarily1.00
00:42:41.220the conversations that like detransitioners want to have are having or need to have because1.00
00:42:47.020contrary to popular belief i would argue most de-transitioners are not right-wing brifters0.99
00:42:52.700or interested in being right-wing brifters brifters you know those are just the ones that
00:42:56.580get the most support because and a lot of people don't understand this there's a lot of money
00:43:01.140in the right like let's break it down one of the reasons why the right is so targeted against
00:43:06.820transness right now is because first of all it's a hot button issue that people on both sides have
00:43:13.160feelings about. But at the core, what they're getting at is trans people break away from a
00:43:19.280binary that is very required to control people, right? If man and woman are the solid and0.59
00:43:25.900immovable things, that makes men and women very easy to control. You can say, men do this, women0.99
00:43:31.560do that, da-da-da-da-da. And people who break away from that draw attention to the bullshit of that0.99
00:43:36.600binary. And that's a binary that people have used to control humanity forever, basically.0.98
00:43:43.800And so trans people end up being a target because, well, we challenge that. We draw attention to
00:43:52.400the matrix and the flaw in the matrix, right? We draw attention to that. And so that's what they
00:43:58.800want to get rid of. Right now, you've got people on both sides of the table who they don't like
00:44:06.340trans people because of the binary existing in the way that it has in our society and that being
00:44:12.180the norm for so many people. So there are people across political spectrum who will be supportive
00:44:18.000of this sort of bullshit. But there's more money in it on the right. There's way more money in it0.99
00:44:23.660on the right because the right is more invested in that binary. The right really requires it.
00:56:20.400And both of these kind of internet cults took place around the same time.
00:56:25.120They are inherently international phenomena.
00:56:27.720And if you think about it, like, both in the case study of ISIS and in the case study of trans indoctrination, you have the cohorts of kids that you would expect to get wrapped up in it, and also an entirely new emerging cohort that you would have never expected to get wrapped up in it.0.70
00:56:44.620So, you know, this is some research that I've been doing on my own.0.56
00:56:48.380I mean, I think I was right about their public speaking abilities, frankly, just from that video.
00:56:53.540Trans people and ISIS have a lot in common in the sense that they are both, broadly speaking, groups of people.
00:57:02.900Groups of people who use the internet.
00:57:08.180Groups of people who use the internet.
00:57:09.920Oh, so ISIS is also like Pokemon, right?
00:57:13.280like um like literally anything that uses the internet to advertise and to specifically target
00:57:20.680a specific group of people who you would expect to get wrapped up in it it's so weird you know
00:57:25.600what aggravates me about these people because i have this thing where when i listen to these people
00:57:28.960like all i can think about is like how i would make their argument for them like you could have
00:57:34.380said a little bit more you could have really gone into it you know you could have made clearer
00:57:40.040examples. But what I know it is, is there's just a group of people out there that really like
00:57:45.440hearing about ISIS and trans ideology and like one conversation. So like, it doesn't even matter0.70
00:57:52.540that there are no good connections made between these two things. They're just repeating the
00:57:57.380script that they know will get the reaction they want. It's kind of like a Ron DeSantis wet dream.
00:58:03.620Oh, yeah. It's like, I mean, it really is giving like, I remember the first time the world
00:58:07.740heard donald trump say like they're giving trans surgeries to illegal aliens in prisons and it just
00:58:14.980felt like a mad lib of things that would like make conservatives tick they know that they can say one
00:58:20.380sentence one sentence that will like get all of the hit all of the marks and that's the thing too
00:58:25.960like i'm listening to these people it's like i can't feel bad for them because they they're
00:58:29.120terrible but like they don't respect their audience because i listen to some of these0.97
00:58:32.380people and i'm like i know that you know what you're saying is bullshit i know that you're0.98
00:58:37.020smart enough to understand that what you're saying is bullshit but they say they say these0.99
00:58:41.700things knowing that their audience is just going to eat it up like I I don't think that you know0.99
00:58:47.660Maya is silly enough to really believe these these things necessarily but knows that it will sell
00:58:52.920well you know as a former transgender former member of ISIS myself yeah I mean what was the0.95
00:59:04.800isis what was so like yeah see now i want to do a video where i'm like yeah and these are the ways
00:59:12.200in which the trans ideology is just like isis just because i i feel like you could make the
00:59:18.440compelling argument but i know they don't care isis is a lot like wordle in the sense that it
00:59:24.020takes place on the internet and there's a lot of people who do it that you would expect to do it
00:59:28.100and also some people that you might not expect to do it who are also doing it
00:59:32.980so many things fit into that description
00:59:37.040so this takes an even more complicated fact-based sort of darker turn oh boy and i would like to
00:59:47.720preface that turn with another one of maya's tweets would you like to read this one if being
00:59:54.340trans is making your life so much harder just detransition you can just choose to stop being
01:00:00.440trans. I did. And it has improved my life significantly. I'm no longer at war with myself1.00
01:00:06.440and my biology. I'm no longer living a lie. How beautiful is that? Maybe because you weren't
01:00:12.540trans, like maybe because you didn't transition, you know, like maybe you were just wearing a0.99
01:00:17.440binder because you didn't like your boobs. Maybe you just wanted a reduction. Maybe that's what0.99
01:00:22.760it was all about. Maybe that's the body you could have lived in. You see the thing that's frustrating
01:00:28.140to me about some of the conversation about detransition is that I think there is actually
01:00:34.260a very useful conversation to be had about accepting your body in a wide range of being
01:00:41.640right like I have known people who have detransitioned in fact one of the very first people
01:00:46.740I saw that detransitioned was someone I used to follow online I still follow them and they
01:00:50.880were like a beautiful like post-op imagine your idealistic 80s trans woman like that's who they0.99
01:00:58.740were right and she came to youtube one day and she was totally like duded out in her way in a way1.00
01:01:06.460that you would right like she cut her hair and put on some flannel wasn't a huge transition but was1.00
01:01:11.120noticeable enough right and she told me that because of the time that she was she came up
01:01:16.760she was older than me she came up in like the 70s and 80s she kind of felt in that time that
01:01:22.160because the conceptions people had about gender were so narrow that she kind of had to choose a
01:01:28.400side and that was sort of what was encouraged around her people who said that you probably do
01:01:34.540because you're feminine and because you want to look this way you probably should start taking0.81
01:01:38.860hormones you probably should start doing these things and this was not the official way this was
01:01:43.240all under underground and as she's seen at the time the increasing acceptance of non-binary folks
01:01:50.180the increasing acceptance of people who are gender fluid and stuff she recognized that she was more
01:01:56.060in line with that so there is something to be said about how some people can't imagine their
01:02:04.020life as a person who might want to transition but not completely right maybe what they want is just
01:02:10.600a reduction of their chest right there's a lot of people who just get top surgery and keep it there
01:02:16.660and i think that we should be more embracing of that not less right and i think that that's kind1.00
01:02:21.860of one of the cool things that we do learn from people who detransition is that you don't need
01:02:27.080to do all of these things and i understand actually how some people could think well i don't want to
01:02:32.240have boobs maybe that makes me a trans guy right like i think we need wider more inclusive
01:02:37.860conversations about gender and gender expression and what transition can look like not less we you0.82
01:02:43.660know and i think really what what maya is advocating for is not helpful well up until this
01:02:49.980point maya has been using the name and still maya uses name maya poet and in a lot of press
01:02:57.660opportunities she simply goes by maya which i find really bizarre like not that i look to the
01:03:03.940New York Post for any sort of like editorial standard. But when they did this exclusive
01:03:09.140profile on Maya Poet, they simply refer to her the entire time as Maya, a 25 year old
01:03:15.280detransitioner. And it's like a full blown piece about her life. And like they never inquire about
01:03:20.920her last name. And the internet starts asking questions like, okay, this person is accruing
01:03:26.980sort of a following among the right wing press and its audience. Who the hell is Maya Poet
01:03:33.480actually and so internet sleuths discover that maya poet's real last name is abruzese abruzese
01:03:41.160that's a great name abruzese abruzese where's that from well she's the daughter of genia abruzese
01:03:48.860who is the co-founder of segm or the society for evidence-based gender medicine okay which is an
01:03:57.800anti-trans lobbying and advocacy group which the southern poverty law center has designated a hate
01:04:03.300group and a quote unquote hub of pseudoscience. And so first of all, I do believe this is our
01:04:11.080first case of an anti-trans nepo grifter. Yeah, I mean, that that also would explain it. You know,
01:04:18.700they didn't really need to be good at telling their story. They just needed some money from
01:04:22.800daddy. Her mom has really campaigned hard against trans rights. Like they have both spoken at that
01:04:27.400GenSpec conference. And it's like, okay, the pieces are fitting together now. It is kind of
01:04:32.880weird because it's the way that like sometimes like nepo babies in hollywood like will go out0.97
01:04:37.000of their way to not talk about their famous family members it is like literally that for
01:04:41.240the anti-trans space but to me when i you know i've been really attuned to this person's life
01:04:47.680and grift over like i said like the last five months as they've continued to go viral but when
01:04:52.560i found this out i got like actually very sad for the first time for them because like we know from
01:04:59.280their own story that Maya grew up, you know, with parents who didn't accept her when she came out
01:05:04.960as trans. But we did not know that her mother is like a literal established full-time career
01:05:10.760anti-trans activist. And that makes me sad. Yeah. I mean, there's probably a reason why
01:05:16.720they felt that way and went down the path they did. We'll never know probably like what the
01:05:23.280actual deal is inside of this family but a very possible conclusion that arose to me was like
01:05:29.380oh maybe this is someone who is trans yeah it's possible and whose parents are just really that0.84
01:05:37.060awful and also presenting them with a job opportunity if they fall in line you know who0.99
01:05:42.040knows and a hallmark of you know things and people we talk about on this podcast are people who do
01:05:48.100harm politically onto others and who are also very harmed and sort of tragic in their own right
01:05:54.020and one does not excuse the other but perhaps explains it and when i learned this about her
01:06:00.320mother i was like oh you're like this is tragic definitely if my parents were obsessed with
01:06:07.500evidence-based gender medicine and like really all it was was them hating trans people like
01:06:14.260professionally. That would, yeah. I think those people have to be one of the least pleasant people0.92
01:06:20.260to be around. Because how do we even get into that? How do you even start? Because here's my
01:06:24.420big annoyance with all of this, right? I turned 35 this year. I transitioned a while ago. I've been
01:06:32.100on HRT for pretty much my entire adult life. I'm happy. I'm content. I feel very at home in my body.
01:06:41.020i love my body show it off too much actually i'd say it's one of those things where people are so1.00
01:06:48.460obsessed with like the narrative that trans people live these unhappy miserable lives and yes
01:06:56.720existing in a culture that is as transphobic as ours will make life not so easy right but i think
01:07:04.540people aren't and this is there's a reason for this people aren't as privy to the fact that many
01:07:10.660transgender people live comfortable, happy, content lives. I say there's a reason for it because while
01:07:17.220to my point earlier, a lot of trans people, when we transition, the goal for a lot of us is to kind
01:07:23.280of like fade into the background. Like we're not going to try to draw attention to ourselves
01:07:27.720necessarily. I do because I've been doing YouTube for most of my life and I've accepted that it's
01:07:33.000something that is helpful for me to talk about. And that's why I make content about it. But there
01:07:38.440aren't very many people who make content from the perspective of being a happy and content person
01:07:44.400who transitioned and has been out as trans for a really long time and is functional and happy and
01:07:49.420living and not in a situation where everything is just so terrible and sad for them. So much of
01:07:57.520the transphobic argument relies on the narrative of trans people being in a perpetually low place
01:08:04.980in society and and it's sad to me because really it all boils down to like the worst thing that
01:08:11.420my apparently could have done was to be someone who was designated female at birth who bound
01:08:17.120their chest the way they're they're trying to present it as if that was like the worst thing
01:08:23.640ever a a trauma that they survived right there's reasons for that there's reasons for that really
01:08:31.940a lot of this boils down to people just being upset with people deviating from gender norm.
01:08:38.160You know, it's not a coincidence that these conversations are being had alongside0.98
01:08:43.280conversations about how women need to go back to the kitchen, stop having so many abortions,0.99
01:08:50.000and start living in a way where they're submissive to men. These conversations are related. I've very0.99
01:08:57.480rarely seen the people who are this obsessed with trans people i've very rarely seen those people be
01:09:05.080liberated from the idea of gender roles and expectations very rarely and if they are they're
01:09:11.260people like ariel scorsella who delusionally believe that they they'll be an exception right0.75
01:09:16.380some of the like queer grifters for this are really funny to me because especially the lgb0.98
01:09:22.400the lgb ones don't recognize that even though it doesn't seem like this you being a woman who's0.99
01:09:27.940attracted to women that's in many people's opinion you deviating away from gender norm
01:09:33.320right hard to see it right now but the end of the conversation will always be and you also need to
01:09:40.360be heterosexual and perform your role in society where you are only available to men and only used1.00
01:09:47.420is a a womb for white children frankly that's why so many of these grifters are like white women1.00
01:09:53.220too because detransitioners come in all shades you know like a lot of the detransitioners that1.00
01:09:58.840i follow are people who are not white right but they'll promote the white ones because it fits0.94
01:10:04.680into this conversation they're trying to have about how white women need to go back and to stop
01:10:11.920doing this whole liberation thing and i know people don't like see those connections but what
01:10:17.880is the name of the book i wish i could remember there's a very popular d trans book that's um
01:10:21.900has like a baby on it and there's like a hole where the the baby's womb is right and it's a
01:10:27.020little white baby and of course they fixate on well if you take testosterone it's going to make0.88
01:10:33.380it so that you can't have children now any trans man who's ever been on t knows that t is not birth
01:10:40.200control and that you can still get pregnant you know it's a little bit harder but you can still0.86
01:10:44.500get pregnant but the the fixation of trans people the reason they say that hrt is one of the most0.91
01:10:51.840damaging things is always on procreation you know you going infertile you'll you becoming infertile0.82
01:10:57.900and it's ironic because trans people still have children trans people still get pregnant they0.83
01:11:03.580they still you know impregnate people like it's not not a thing but the narrative is so fixated
01:11:10.100on that and hrt being the thing that like ruins it because they're focused on returning women
01:11:17.120back to a particular role and forcing them to stay there right that's why these these0.99
01:11:22.600motherfuckers are talking about how oh we need to incentivize towns where women are having children1.00
01:11:29.080that are more family oriented you know all of this shit it's all about that it's all about that1.00
01:11:35.180and so a lot of people are going they're going to sign on to all this transphobia and the grifters0.99
01:11:40.100are always going to stand there as like representations of lost women who eventually
01:11:45.720came back running from rockets into womanhood right that's why they're promoting it that's0.76
01:11:50.800why they're paying for it because it actually doesn't matter whether or not trans people are0.73
01:11:56.440harmed by their access to HRT. We already know the reality, which is that medical transition is like0.60
01:12:02.940the treatment for gender dysphoria, and that it is actually only helpful to a trans person's0.74
01:12:07.680survival for them to transition. But it doesn't matter if it's actually good or not, because
01:12:12.940that's not their focus. They don't actually care about these trans people. I kind of wanted to
01:12:18.100round this out with one other point that I had while looking at this whole Maya poet situation,
01:12:23.080which was, you know, I talk about grifters of all flavors on this podcast. Someone close to me
01:12:28.600recently actually told me that they thought my podcast was like a study in grifter anthropology,0.98
01:12:34.760which I thought was a huge compliment. You know, I'm always interested in who these people are,
01:12:40.080what part of their soul they might be selling, and notably what they're getting in return for it.
01:12:45.120You know, Ollie London gets a book deal. Candace Owens becomes a conservative media superstar.0.76
01:12:51.640Riley Gaines gets to whisper in the ear of the President of the United States.
01:12:55.980And so does Chloe Cole, for that matter.
01:12:58.680But what's becoming clear to me as I chronicle these people is that they're doing this for less and less power and money.0.91
01:13:05.780You know, Maya Poet has gone viral basically every day over the last five or six months, mostly because she's funny.
01:13:14.880and the way she's trying to make her grift creative and different by incorporating this
01:13:21.160whole like Hamas slash ISIS thing is so absurd that people love to laugh at her and you know
01:13:27.940us included. Is she a comedian? No but she probably could be and perhaps should be but for all of this0.98
01:13:34.900she hasn't cracked 30,000 Twitter followers. So many people are trying to hop on this
01:13:41.840conservative grift wagon, that I think it's become like oversaturated. Because all of these people
01:13:47.480are saying the same thing, right? They're all saying exactly what they think conservatives
01:13:51.280want to hear, which to your point, Kat, is this return to this like gender essentialist women get0.80
01:13:58.360back to the home and start popping out white conservative children, men go to work and be0.97
01:14:02.720big and strong. And it's like, there's only so many new and creative ways that you can present0.65
01:14:07.700that information and present yourself as like an interesting chess piece in that conversation
01:14:12.380before there are no more spots for Charlie Kirk to dole out to you, right? And so I look at Maya
01:14:20.260Poet attempting to differentiate herself in this like detransgriff space by being like,0.90
01:14:24.980I'm a detransitioner who also loves Israel and survived October 7th. And it's like,0.94
01:14:30.500none of that's true. And even if it was, which a lot of conservatives seem to believe it is,
01:14:34.720it's still not good enough for you to achieve any sort of fame yeah that is the sad part i have
01:14:40.480noticed that a lot of these people don't get a lot back but you know what here's the thing i will say
01:14:46.100like we're thinking about this as creators now and i as a person who does public speaking this is
01:14:50.740just this is the reality of it maya poet she's leaning into those things because that is what
01:14:56.760makes her unique and if she leans into those things she can get invited to israeli conferences
01:15:03.160she can also get invited to the anti-trans conferences and that will work really well
01:15:09.940for her what doesn't really work really well for her is that to your point it is kind of1.00
01:15:14.260oversaturated at this point right and there will be frankly uh a detransitioner who appeals a bit0.98
01:15:21.200more to the the lens that these people want frankly who will do much better one who is less0.85
01:15:28.120visually non-binary theater kid you said it not me okay you know okay if you look at the people0.96
01:15:34.760that end up getting like at the top of the fucking you know conservative whatever whatever0.94
01:15:39.480they all have a look they have a vibe they've been made in the same factory i'll just say0.94
01:15:45.620and i think the people who end up kind of becoming known are either really unique in their like their
01:15:52.640way of being like ariel scarsella and blair white for example blair white has medically transitioned
01:15:57.400we know that that makes a lot of what she's saying so useful right we know that arielle
01:16:03.140scursella is a lesbian it's obvious right so yes yes yes so which when she's saying all of this1.00
01:16:12.260anti-lgbt shit for the audience they love that candace owens despite her best efforts is a black1.00
01:16:20.840woman right so she's going to get a lot because she's a visibly black woman saying anti-black1.00
01:16:28.920bullshit so people like maya they're not as unique as they actually need to be in order to really1.00
01:16:36.700capitalize on this shit maya has the the benefit of having nepotism frankly but i'm only but so0.99
01:16:44.860familiar with the detransitioner grifters i'm sure the ones that are a bit more successful look a0.99
01:16:51.540certain way you know because all these people really want i mean they're so they're so capitalistic1.00
01:16:57.960they're so weird and shallow like the the things that they want to see it's it's a very particular0.94
01:17:02.560look like ollie london right was was able to be heard because ollie london fucking went under the
01:17:08.140knife and like did it there there's like a weird area that some people are able to exist in where0.86
01:17:13.600they're able to take their their experience and use it to like make what they're saying
01:17:18.400more entertaining i guess you could say to the people that are watching and unfortunately i
01:17:23.300think there's going to be better detransitioner that are going to take the spot america's next
01:17:29.940top detranscript i want to see that show tell us in what way i want to hear the unique story of how
01:17:39.380the woke agenda got to you i want to hear it ollie london's drag race yeah i i want i would
01:17:47.560love i would love to be a judge on that show i want to hear the sob story and then i want to
01:17:53.420be there when maya pulls out like yeah well i was i was there on october 7th in israel you know i
01:18:00.260just want to like you know and everyone i want like no because i'm so bored by half of these
01:18:07.080these narratives because it is just like a mishmash of what conservatives want to hear
01:18:12.200and like over exaggerations and it's so boring and if i feel that way i know the audience got
01:18:18.940to feel that way wow i didn't think we would end this episode at a place of like advice for future
01:18:24.620detransgrifters do something more interesting than october 7th yes i want you to be at a terrorist0.92
01:18:31.820attack i want you to have had bottom surgery a phalloplasty i want for you to have a tragic
01:18:37.660story about recognizing how you will never actually be a man give me the drama give me you know like0.70
01:18:44.480we need literal emilia perez i do we need a literal former cartel leader who faked her own
01:18:50.260yes i yes and you and you became trans in order to avoid like some human trafficking situation i
01:18:59.380want to hear it all i desperately want better stories and it makes me kind of sad that these
01:19:06.180people they have such a a low like that's the thing that gets me these the people are really
01:19:11.720entertained by conservative media i'm like your standards are so low that the stories you guys
01:19:17.940clap they're budget stories that show during the daytime they're not very good but for some reason0.98
01:19:23.880like i was fifth place at a a swimming meet and that that is a compelling fucking story to you0.92
01:19:30.820i was a few cities away while a terrorist attack happened and i had to run to my bomb shelter and0.95
01:19:37.140i couldn't grab my binder and that's a compelling story to to people it's sad the lack of um taste
01:19:44.140that people have these days frankly not to sound like too much of a an elitist make your detransition
01:19:49.680story more compelling please please you know I like to end these episodes with giving people
01:19:57.200a little bit of a takeaway and when I do episodes that really focus on grifters I'm not trying to
01:20:02.640reach Maya poet and be like I think you should ground yourself in reality I'm not I don't have
01:20:09.100anything to say to Maya poet nor do I have anything to say to like Riley Gaines but
01:20:13.220I feel like my advice and you tell me what you think is more aimed at audiences0.88
01:20:19.440Like, I think the purpose of talking about this stuff, generally speaking, is just to shed light on the fact that these sort of right wing ecosystems are filled to the brim with bullshit stories about bullshit people with the ultimate goal of like taking people's rights away.0.76
01:20:38.500I don't know. I feel like you just have to create a more cynical audience to be like, wait a minute, what am I actually consuming? Did that happen? And what's the goal here?
01:20:45.280Yeah. And, you know, the thing that is unfortunate is that a lot of people, they are ignorant about trans people. And for a lot of them, they will never know a trans person. They will never need a trans person. They will only ever hear about the few trans people who get presented to them.0.53
01:21:02.520And I do feel the need to point out that quite frequently, people are invested in negatively representing transgender people. And most trans people who exist are probably not drawing attention to themselves in the way that they would like for you to believe.
01:21:18.620And I want for some people to be a bit more critical and more thoughtful about that, thoughtful about the fact that there are people who are really invested in making you have a negative opinion about trans folks.0.98
01:21:32.780There are several detransitioners who make content about their experiences. They share their experiences very honestly, without a desire to gain a right wing audience and become known as a right wing, you know, detransitioner.0.91
01:21:48.760There are people who genuinely have things to say about their complex experience being a person who medically transitioned and then detransitioned, right? Like, there are some very important conversations to be had. And I want for people to be a bit more invested in finding those conversations. I want for people to be a bit more interested in not just believing the propaganda.
01:22:13.460there's too many people who are empowered to represent us for us and i want for people to
01:22:19.240recognize at least for now you do have access to trans creators who are speaking about their
01:22:24.740experiences detrans creators who are also speaking about their experiences i made a video on my
01:22:29.880channel where i kind of talk about my experiences with detransitioning and not me detransitioning
01:22:34.840but other detransitioners that i've known and kind of the things that i've recognized from them
01:22:39.760Because the narrative is very different.
01:22:41.360Like there are conversations to be had about detransitioning, but these grifters aren't
01:22:46.440having them because they're trying to have a completely different conversation, which
01:22:50.040has a lot of, it's about trans people, but it's not really about trans people, you know?
01:22:54.820And that's kind of what I wish more people were aware of.
01:22:57.360People who are invested in the gender binary and shaming people for veering outside of
01:23:03.380it are generally invested in some politics that are not good for anyone, really.
01:23:09.000That's part of why I get kind of sad when when turfs go the way they do. Because if you think that these people who support this shit are going to also not turn around and say, and also women shouldn't have rights anymore. And also women shouldn't be able to vote. You're you know, you know, if that's it's going to happen. It's going to happen. It is happening.1.00
01:23:27.660and if you must if you absolutely must become a right-wing d-trans influencer just get a little
01:23:35.660more creative you know get the juice in you before you go down that path and give us something
01:23:39.940give us something to talk about give us something to sink our teeth into
01:23:44.040i want a better story i want to i will i will be grading the story