A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - The Breeders Who Want You to Have More Kids Right Now

00:00:00.000 The only thing we're screening our embryos for is charisma, uniqueness, nerve, and talent.

00:00:11.200 Hello, hello, and welcome to A Bit Fruity. I'm Matt Bernstein, and things are getting

00:00:17.160 really, really weird. Last week, an article was published in the New York Times titled

00:00:21.720 White House Assesses Ways to Persuade Women to Have More Children. It detailed ways which the

00:00:29.100 Trump administration is currently thinking about incentivizing people who don't have children to

00:00:33.180 have them, and people who do have children to have more of them. These included a one-time

00:00:39.200 quote-unquote baby bonus of $5,000 to new mothers, which, you know, obviously doesn't even like cover

00:00:47.180 the fees it costs to have a child. It included government-funded programs to teach women about 0.97

00:00:53.060 their menstrual cycles, not to empower them to learn more about their bodies and deepen their

00:00:58.180 own bodily autonomy, but so they'd know when they're able to get pregnant and encourage them

00:01:02.680 to seize on those opportunities. They included reserving 30% of Fulbright scholarships for

00:01:08.120 married parents, which to me sounds a lot like diversity, equity, and inclusion. They included

00:01:14.280 an executive order which would award mothers of six or more children with the National Medal of

00:01:20.720 Motherhood, a proposal which chillingly resembles the cross of honor of the German mother, a tiered

00:01:27.340 decorative medal Hitler introduced for German mothers in Nazi Germany. Bronze for four or five

00:01:33.220 children, silver for six or seven, and gold for eight or more. Jewish German mothers were ineligible 0.90

00:01:39.720 for this award. That particular proposal was submitted to the White House by Simone and

00:01:44.380 Malcolm Collins, two names which, when I read them in that New York Times article, sounded really

00:01:50.040 familiar to me. And then I remembered that this is famously the Brooklyn hipster-looking young

00:01:56.340 couple that's been doing a media tour for the last two years about how they've been, quote,

00:02:02.040 breeding to save mankind. All of this, coupled with J.D. Vance's frequent disparaging of childless

00:02:09.440 women, while abortion is no longer a legal right in large swaths of this country, and the

00:02:15.240 simultaneously ever more dominant influence of tradwife megastar influencers like Ballerina Farm,

00:02:21.600 feels bad. It's giving handmaid's tale. Pronatalism, the movement which says that it's women's, well

00:02:30.520 some women's, civilizational duty to have children, has a firm grip on the White House. And for normal

00:02:38.040 people who don't spend our days talking about the civilizational consequences of declining birth

00:02:43.320 rates, I'm worried that we might not fully be grasping what that means for us and how we can

00:02:49.220 fight back. So today, we're going to dive in to all of that. And to help me, I have enlisted

00:02:56.220 two people who know honestly a lot more about this than I do and that most people do. Emma

00:03:01.900 Vigeland of The Majority Report and Moira Donegan of In Bed with the Right. Welcome. Welcome back.

00:03:09.500 Thank you so much for having me, Matt. I'm such a big fan of your show.

00:03:13.400 I am too. I am thrilled to be here. I think this is going to be really fun.

00:03:16.840 agreed fun you think it's gonna be fun yeah i mean if you consider i would say like the cross

00:03:24.880 section of evangelical christians assault on our reproductive rights with the techno fascists

00:03:31.380 with the trad wife culture and then also good old-fashioned racist eugenics it's fun in the

00:03:37.980 way like looking under a rock at the squirmy stuff is fun you know like fun like a david

00:03:42.640 Cronenberg film it's gonna be it's gonna be weird but we're gonna we're gonna be very interested

00:03:48.540 in what we find sure sure I guess before we get in too far if you would like more of the show

00:04:00.280 you can get bonus episodes over on patreon I just yesterday put up a new one with Kat Tenbarge we

00:04:07.300 dug our analytical claws into a one Arielle Scarcella, the internet's most infamous Make 1.00

00:04:14.800 America Great Again lesbian influencer. And coming up very soon, in just a couple weeks, 0.95

00:04:21.180 I start a short live show tour of the podcast, which I'm so excited for. I am doing live shows

00:04:29.380 in the end of May and the beginning of June in Toronto, Chicago, Philly, Brooklyn, Seattle, LA,

00:04:35.600 san francisco and portland if you would like to grab a last minute ticket to that you can do so

00:04:41.140 i will link it in the episode description okay i feel like a good entry point to this is the

00:04:46.920 collins couple malcolm and simone collins because some people might be aware of them and if they're

00:04:51.780 not chronically online they are happier people than us and they don't yet know about them but

00:04:56.120 this is a fascinating couple so what do you guys know about them like you matt i have been

00:05:02.780 looking at the Collins is kind of the way you look at like a car wreck on the side of the highway.

00:05:09.020 You know, I cannot look away. And they are really seeking out our attention, right? These are the

00:05:16.180 founders of pronatalism.org, which is a website that encourages people to have as many children

00:05:25.540 as possible. And they have really positioned themselves as the mascots for the American

00:05:31.920 pro-natalism movement, in part by soliciting a lot of media attention for their own quest to

00:05:38.560 have as many children as possible. I believe they currently have four with a number five on the way.

00:05:44.020 Yeah. And I would also say that it's important to note that they have ties to Peter Thiel,

00:05:49.500 who has his fingers in the pots of many of these kind of more niche online far-right movements.

00:05:57.260 They talk about how we need to have more children because birth rates are declining.

00:06:03.560 And we can get into that philosophy in just a bit.

00:06:07.080 But to give people a preview, the claim is also false.

00:06:11.540 Like the growth rate of births is expected to decline, but it is still growing.

00:06:17.020 It's just that the growth rate is expected to decline.

00:06:20.420 And that's largely driven by a wealthier Western nation.

00:06:24.520 So when there's this talk of population decline, it's important to note that they are not talking about people in the global south and people with brown or black skin.

00:06:33.680 I think it's also interesting to talk about who they mean in the U.S., right? Because while the United States has had a modest decline in births per household, especially over the past like 20 years or so, that has been almost entirely from a drop off in the teen birth rate, which has really collapsed as a result of policy interventions designed to get sexual education to teenagers, to get contraceptions to teenagers,

00:07:02.220 and to encourage teenagers to postpone childbearing in favor of education, right?

00:07:08.280 So these people, I think, Emma, your point's really well taken.

00:07:12.360 They're telling us to be very afraid of a problem that doesn't actually exist.

00:07:17.940 Well, to them, it may exist, right, in the sense that the point that they're gesturing towards

00:07:22.740 is not the actual point that they're really thinking about, right?

00:07:26.560 So you'll hear them talk a lot about civilization.

00:07:29.000 But if they were to put something like Western in front of civilization, it might make their arguments a little bit more clear because they're talking about specific kinds of birth rates.

00:07:40.720 Wow. I really thought it would take us like at least 20 minutes to get to just like, this is a eugenics movement. 0.79

00:07:47.060 In fact, we're less than two bullet points in on my outline and we've already, well, fair enough.

00:07:53.840 We might be bearing the lead a little though, because we've talked about, you know, the Collins, they have these ties to Peter Thiel, who has been funding a ton of right wing endeavors. They also have ties to Elon Musk, who's, of course, a big proponent of pronatalism. Malcolm Collins's brother is one of those doge boys helping to dismantle the federal bureaucracy as we speak.

00:08:21.820 i didn't know that but i think we're kind of burying the lead because we're not really

00:08:26.360 talking about what they look like that's where i plan to start this

00:08:31.740 hey i just wanted to dive in right into the eugenics but let's take a pit stop and make

00:08:38.360 fun of these freaks first they are they are truly chilling people with horrible ideological belief

00:08:47.880 systems but can we talk about how they dress okay so for normal people who have no idea who this

00:08:56.000 couple is let me explain simone and malcolm collins are a couple they're both in their late 30s

00:09:03.220 and they initially went viral when they were profiled a couple years ago in the telegraph

00:09:08.760 in an article titled meet the elite couple breeding to save mankind then there was a

00:09:15.440 follow-up profile in a Guardian titled America's premier pronatalists have tons of kids to save the

00:09:23.180 world. Now, I don't know if anyone has thoughts. They have four kids. I know she wants a lot more

00:09:28.920 than four kids. Four kids, to be clear, is a lot more kids than I want. But it's also like kind of 0.89

00:09:34.320 a normal amount of kids. Yeah, they're like compared to Elon Musk, who has like 14 with an

00:09:39.220 asterisk because we don't actually know how many children we have. You know, these are rookie

00:09:43.120 numbers for the the true elite freaks of the pronatalist movement should we talk about the

00:09:48.040 outfits do you have the outline open because i i plucked a picture of them right up front oh yeah

00:09:52.720 oh yeah what is with simone's bonnet well so okay my description visually of this couple because i

00:10:02.000 really think it's important to the way that they want to show themselves in the media is like like

00:10:07.580 I said like they look like a hipster Brooklyn couple from 2012 they're like young white they

00:10:14.180 have these like really thick almost like performatively like nerdy glasses but then also

00:10:20.000 she dresses like a pilgrim which I don't really understand it's a bonnet like literally it looks

00:10:26.180 like she's an extra on The Handmaid's Tale it's just it's on the nose but they also kind of dress

00:10:30.980 like German modernists or like mimes a little bit. It's a lot of black and white. The glasses

00:10:37.320 are like oddly shaped in ways that are supposed to be conspicuous. Simone really likes to wear 0.75

00:10:44.380 like bright red lipstick, which contrasts with her skin, which is quite pale. The red lipstick

00:10:50.660 thing is definitely, I think, a deliberate choice. I don't know if you've heard Jordan Peterson talk

00:10:55.740 about how oh the women wear rouge on their faces or their red lips so that they can attract a man 1.00

00:11:04.280 at the office like if basically trying to say that if you don't want to have a man come on to 1.00

00:11:10.480 you in your workplace that you shouldn't be wearing these kinds of colors that are biologically

00:11:15.000 designed to enhance male attraction you can just see a lot of biological determinism in this line

00:11:22.060 of argument right it's like this this strain of the far right where there is this like veneer of

00:11:27.680 science but at right beneath it they're just measuring skulls like we're back to the the 19th

00:11:33.420 century and speaking about how different people are genetically more predisposed to success and

00:11:39.840 that kind of thing but they dress worse than those people right like i don't even get what this is i 0.64

00:11:44.660 think amish when i see them it what you just said about like they think it's science but it's not

00:11:49.820 It's literally like the Maybelline's logo, like maybe she's born with it, maybe it's

00:11:53.540 Maybelline, but they think that she's born with it.

00:11:56.040 Yeah, right, right, right, exactly.

00:12:00.220 I will mention there's a third person in the photo that we're looking at, which this photo

00:12:04.240 was taken at NatalCon, a pro-natalist convention, which is something that we will also talk

00:12:08.960 about, but that third person is a woman named Amanda Bradford, and I want to put a pin in

00:12:14.440 her for right now, because we're going to talk about her, because there's more.

00:12:19.820 But let's stay on Simone and Malcolm.

00:12:21.860 She's like Chekhov's gun, like she's going to go off in the third act.

00:12:25.920 She's coming back.

00:12:29.600 So Simone and Malcolm meet on a dating app and they get married in 2015.

00:12:36.220 Simone is a Bay Area native and she initially is like a liberal. 0.77

00:12:42.080 She wants no kids. 1.00

00:12:43.220 She wants a career.

00:12:44.880 Malcolm, on the other hand, comes from a wealthy family from Dallas, Texas.

00:12:48.580 he's getting his MBA at Stanford and he wants a lot of kids the lore as they tell it goes

00:12:56.320 Simone was like I don't want kids I want a career and Malcolm was like what if you could have both

00:13:01.300 they ultimately have four kids at the time that we're recording this she's pregnant with her fifth

00:13:06.900 three of those kids were born via c-section after she had complications with her first pregnancy

00:13:12.820 and I just also want to mention the kids names do you know the kids names the names are a

00:13:18.540 trip the names are something else it's like if you asked ai to write an ayn rand novel like these

00:13:26.540 would be the names of the characters there is a four-year-old son named octavian george a two-year-old

00:13:33.440 son named torsten savage a 16-month-old daughter named titan evict oh jesus a 16-month-old daughter

00:13:44.300 named titan invictus and their youngest fourth child industry americus collins what the hell is

00:13:52.280 going on with these like crazy tech because these are like the elon names too oh industry i can't

00:13:57.640 wait to name my firstborn sweatshop oh my gosh this is like libertarian weirdness is just it's

00:14:06.960 insane insane to me but i heard and maybe it was you on your show matt but that the way elon musk

00:14:12.600 names his children is this kind of almost humiliation ritual. I believe that was me.

00:14:17.880 That might have been you, right? And you can explain it better than I can. But it feels like

00:14:21.700 an extension of that where you mark them with this kind of mark of the parent. You make sure

00:14:28.580 that they're tied to you for the rest of their lives with this completely incomprehensible name.

00:14:35.180 Yeah, it does feel almost like a brand. Those poor kids.

00:14:38.020 Moira, did you want to explain the IVF genetic testing component of this?

00:14:43.540 Yeah. So partly for personal reasons and partly for ideological reasons, the Collinses create 0.57

00:14:51.120 most of their children through selective IVF. So they create these embryos outside of the uterus 0.81

00:14:58.360 in a medical lab. And that's partly because Simone has a history of eating disorders that 1.00

00:15:04.960 have given her some fertility issues but it's also because they have a very strong and i want

00:15:11.420 to say sort of like scientifically not justified faith in their ability to screen these embryos

00:15:19.120 for things like health and intelligence crazy yeah so they're creating what they think are like

00:15:26.180 super babies like genetically superior offspring they screen those embryos for iq levels which

00:15:33.900 like that's that's not like that's not real. IQs are already pseudoscience in the sense that

00:15:39.520 we know that they are incredibly tilted towards people in the West into English speakers. This 0.94

00:15:45.540 has already been debunked. So they're screening for a pseudoscience using likely pseudoscience

00:15:51.300 themselves. It's like the Russian nesting doll of pseudoscientific racism. I was researching to

00:15:57.160 make this outline and I was just like losing my mind with everything that I learned and every

00:16:02.040 detail that I learned and I told my boyfriend I was like they are screening the embryos for IQ

00:16:07.780 levels and he was like lost it and he was like I don't know if either of you watch RuPaul's Drag

00:16:12.920 Race but he was like the only thing we're screening our embryos for charisma uniqueness nerve and

00:16:18.680 talent but what I will say about this is they flatly deny being eugenicists but like what is

00:16:30.360 the non-eugenics explanation for screening your embryos like this? I don't think that there is

00:16:36.360 one. I actually think that we can talk about the Trump administration and the broader conservative

00:16:42.120 movement as incorporating eugenics into their politics in ways that we haven't seen in decades,

00:16:49.140 at least in this country. Even RFK Jr., you can think of him as a survival of the fittest 0.52

00:16:54.560 kind of figure in the administration, right? This mentality about public health that talks about,

00:17:00.840 hey, you know, we want to stop disease. We want to stop things like autism. But they largely blame

00:17:08.040 diagnoses like autism on controllable factors, which functions as a way to otherize people who

00:17:14.500 are on the spectrum or who have disabilities as freaks. And in the end, it blames parents if their

00:17:21.460 their child is disabled or has some sort of condition. And I do think that that is in part

00:17:27.820 because in this country, we don't guarantee health care and we are the wealthiest country

00:17:32.580 in the world. And people fundamentally understand that there are so many billionaires in this

00:17:36.580 country. But what we're going to get charged thousands of dollars because I had to go to the

00:17:41.180 doctor to take care of myself. And like so people don't feel empowered over their health care. So

00:17:46.420 they go to private industry and snake oil salesmen. Yeah. And I think it's a good distinction

00:17:51.300 to make because like the Collins are claiming that they are not negative eugenicists, right?

00:17:55.380 There's a difference between negative and positive eugenics. So negative eugenics is when these people 0.70

00:18:01.120 who appoint themselves the arbiter of who should and should not be having children try to prevent

00:18:06.460 what they see as undesirable populations from having children, right? And if I was Malcolm

00:18:11.760 and Simone Collins, which thank God I'm not. But if I was, I think I would be like, well,

00:18:16.540 we're not negative eugenicists. We're not eugenicists. We're not trying to stop anybody

00:18:19.940 from having babies. We want people to have babies. But that's a very incomplete picture

00:18:24.880 of their project, which is emphatically a positive eugenics project, right? They are identifying

00:18:30.320 populations of people they think need to be breeding more to change the character of the

00:18:35.800 population, to make it more in line with their priorities and their values, and frankly, with

00:18:40.800 their self-image, right? These are people who very much understand themselves as being the type of

00:18:46.660 person who there needs to be more of and who needs to be breeding more so that America looks a little

00:18:53.580 bit more like Malcolm and Simone Collins. That's their goal. And that is a eugenics goal.

00:18:59.080 We should say that this is very similar to what figures like Elon Musk have said,

00:19:04.060 and it's in part why he continues to have children largely through IVF. Again,

00:19:10.000 And I maintain that there is no way to confirm or deny whether or not this man has ever had sex.

00:19:15.280 We shall see.

00:19:16.180 There's been no physical evidence presented to us.

00:19:18.300 So I choose to believe that he has not, but I don't have evidence in that regard.

00:19:22.360 But putting that aside for a second.

00:19:23.900 Sure, sure, sure, sure.

00:19:25.560 I just want to get that out there and spread that around the Internet.

00:19:28.440 He speaks about his children in that way and that he wants to create a legion of genetically superior kids.

00:19:37.420 And why are they superior?

00:19:38.420 whoa because they have my dna of course back to the collinses before trump took office again

00:19:45.100 they positioned themselves in a lot of these interviews that they did as like liberals they

00:19:50.160 would like talk about how they're pro-lgbtq kind of uh they would say like we're pro-diversity

00:19:55.940 in one article in the washington post simone said not only are we not racist i think the worst thing 0.90

00:20:03.920 about being accused of racism is just we think racism is so dumb oh wow that's a really well

00:20:10.320 thought out anti-racist uh thought there matt yeah i definitely i definitely believe them 0.93

00:20:15.960 it sounds like they have thought this out since trump has taken office and now they're like

00:20:21.480 directly working with the trump administration and the heritage foundation and people like peter

00:20:25.220 thiel they've kind of dropped the act but i think from the beginning you can see that this is like

00:20:32.340 there's no liberal or left-wing way to have the ideology that they have because what they're

00:20:37.260 fighting for the world that they think should exist in the future it comes with a profound

00:20:42.700 cultural shift that they have also been fighting for alongside the mandate to like have as many

00:20:48.700 children as possible gabby del valle and politico wrote the couple is committed to fighting the

00:20:54.420 quote urban monoculture which is something they talk about a lot that they claim has tricked a

00:20:59.460 generation of young Americans into spending their most fertile years chasing professional

00:21:04.140 achievements and personal fulfillment at the expense of building a family. The most important

00:21:09.640 and effective way to fight the monoculture, Malcolm later tells me via email, is building

00:21:14.860 school systems not dedicated to cultural genocide. Malcolm Collins also later said,

00:21:22.540 I have kids for the future of human civilization because I have pride in who I am and who my

00:21:28.040 ancestors were and what I think my descendants will achieve. And I read that and I'm like,

00:21:33.160 uh-oh, uh-oh, you can call yourself a lib, you can say that you love the gays, but

00:21:37.520 once you start talking about civilization and your ancestors and your descendants, 0.97

00:21:41.620 it's white supremacy all the way down. Oh, Matt, you know what this sounds exactly like?

00:21:46.620 This is liberal Zionism. Talk about it. Oh, I was going to say it sounded like the 0.83

00:21:50.440 neo-Confederates. It sounds like the Lost Cause people being like, my ancestors have been unfairly

00:21:56.460 aligned, but the South will rise again. It's all of those things, I think. But even the part about

00:22:02.200 being pro-LGBTQ, the pinkwashing of their far-right ideology is very much what you hear

00:22:09.620 supporters of Israel talk about, which isn't even true. Yes, you can be a gay person and

00:22:15.400 emigrate to Israel, aka you can move there if you are already married, but they do not perform 0.67

00:22:20.740 gay marriages in israel because it is a far-right fascist colonial state um but my point is is just

00:22:28.060 that like they want that demographic shift so it's okay if you're gay and married and you want 0.95

00:22:32.500 to move here but for people that are already here no no no and so you can see how that liberal

00:22:37.920 veneer is often used to obscure far-right politics and i would say that the techno-fascist right here

00:22:45.660 in this country has been adept at this very tactic. And it's no coincidence that this

00:22:52.160 proto-Natalist movement comes out of that same ecosystem. Peter Thiel, in particular, being

00:23:00.740 closely associated with Simone and Malcolm Collins is fascinating to me because he has

00:23:07.220 seemingly a lot of other people on his payroll, including Gwen Stefani.

00:23:11.780 are you serious no well yes what for what Gwen Stefani along with like Mark Wahlberg and Chris

00:23:23.700 Pratt but like notably Gwen Stefani because I'm a gay man shills for his uh his anti-abortion

00:23:28.720 prayer app I did another episode on that that is so unfortunate his money is everywhere not to

00:23:34.500 derail this but Kat Tenbard said it best on the episode if you look at the center of everything

00:23:38.400 that's wrong with this country right now, Peter Thiel. Yeah, yeah. But that's an interesting

00:23:42.720 example, because I guess she might be a pretty good example of the left wing or left wing adjacent 1.00

00:23:51.360 to trad wife esque pipeline, which might put her in the Peter Thiel orbit. But the Weinstein brother

00:23:58.040 that I think it's Eric Weinstein, who works for him in this very dubious role is another example

00:24:03.420 of somebody who basically was a COVID disinformation person. He's an anti-peer review

00:24:09.620 online podcaster influencer alongside his brother, Brett Weinstein. And his role with Peter Thiel's

00:24:17.000 company is very vague, but he still is doing some influencing on the internet. So you see how it

00:24:23.900 seems like Thiel wants to put certain people to the forefront, to the top of the podcast charts,

00:24:30.420 to elevate their profiles, even if they may not have the most organic audience to start.

00:24:36.420 And I wouldn't be shocked if this couple and the number of damn profiles that they've had 0.64

00:24:41.860 in The Guardian and The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal, what have you, 0.95

00:24:45.660 is a direct result of his influence and his money being able to push these people out.

00:24:50.920 I want to just push back on Malcolm's characterization of like an urban pluralist 0.93

00:24:56.240 or feminist culture because what exactly the fuck does he mean by cultural genocide right like there 0.74

00:25:04.780 are fewer stay-at-home mothers in america now than there were in whatever version of 1950s that he's 0.95

00:25:12.420 imagining and therefore he is claiming the mantle of being a victim of a genocide you know it's just

00:25:18.840 such a collapsing of scale and of severity that is, I think, really typical of a lot of right-wing

00:25:26.400 rhetoric. Well, it's also, I mean, that to me, that's just like a white supremacist dog whistle

00:25:30.420 because they love to talk about like white genocide, cultural genocide. I mean, to me, 0.80

00:25:34.300 it's just that. And so then to like say that and then deny that you're racist, it's comically

00:25:39.920 ridiculous, just not comical, unfortunately. It goes back to the earlier point that we were 0.81

00:25:45.140 talking about where they'll they'll say civilization is in jeopardy because of our birth rates but they

00:25:51.320 don't put the white part in front of it in the same way when they say genocide they don't put

00:25:56.140 the white genocide in front of it because that is a the great replacement theory that's literally

00:26:02.140 the white supremacist motivating theory behind a majority of the republican party at this point 0.94

00:26:08.400 But particularly the Trump administration, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller and Elon Musk, who connects the pronatalism with the Great Replacement Theory and, in fact, endorsed it and said that he found it very interesting on Twitter and the ADL back in the day, said that he was being anti-Semitic rightly.

00:26:28.020 But then when he did the Sig Heil at the inauguration, oh, well, maybe not so much now that we're in bed with the Trump administration and their foreign policy.

00:26:35.980 So all of these far-right movements are connected in this incredibly dystopian way.

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00:28:18.220 Now, break's over. Let's get back to it.

00:28:22.080 I want to talk about pronatalism and its history a little bit in Christian and right-wing movements.

00:28:28.740 And I want to give you my understanding first, which is not super thorough, but I understand that a few different groups have converged on this idea of pronatalism, one of which is Christians, because a lot of Christians think that like large families are a divine mandate.

00:28:47.140 God wants you to have a lot of kids.

00:28:48.860 another one for all the reasons that we've been talking about are white supremacists who great 0.56

00:28:53.980 replacement theory right they think non-white populations are diluting white people's political

00:28:58.620 power in america and they think that's a bad thing and we have to like out populate people of color

00:29:03.240 essentially and tech billionaires like peter teal and people associated them like jd vance

00:29:08.980 who are funding these like experimental reproductive technologies and for what i've

00:29:14.560 who are concerned about like the future size of the labor force. But again, this is where it gets

00:29:19.500 like so big and weird. And like, we're getting it's like, it's like normal people don't talk

00:29:23.320 about this, which is why when I started reading about it, I was like, what? Yeah, I think you're

00:29:28.840 you're tapping into something, Matt, which is that there are some divides and fissures and

00:29:34.420 contradictions within the emerging pro natalist movement, because a lot of these folks who really

00:29:40.900 believe that white Americans need to be having more children and women need to be dropping out

00:29:46.460 of public life in order to bear and care for them are from, as you mentioned, this Christian 0.65

00:29:52.740 right to tradition, right? People like the Catholic Church and like a lot of evangelical

00:29:57.120 churches who don't just oppose abortion, but actually really oppose the use of any kind of

00:30:03.500 contraception. And I think that their most fierce and dedicated opposition is towards the kinds of

00:30:10.640 birth control that are controlled by women themselves. They're not really coming after 0.98

00:30:16.120 condoms. They're coming after the IUD, right? So that's one camp, right? But then you also have

00:30:23.160 this interesting alliance with the tech dystopian right or the techno-fascist right, people out of

00:30:29.420 Silicon Valley, the nerds, the nerd right. The tech broligarchy. The nerd right, as the great

00:30:35.100 writer gilderan refers the nerd right that's perfect i love that so much and they are not at

00:30:41.900 all opposed to things like idf or to surrogacy which some of the christian right does oppose

00:30:48.840 right so you have people like the collinses from this techno futurist camp who are like no we can

00:30:55.440 use these reproductive technologies for eugenics purposes right i can have my baby uh i can pay 0.98

00:31:01.780 through the nose to have my embryo screened with a fake test for a fake quality like IQ and then I 1.00

00:31:08.460 can make this genetic super baby. Or you have people like Elon Musk, who is very comfortable

00:31:13.480 not only with IVF, but also with surrogacy and with these like weird harem arrangements where

00:31:19.340 he's having children with tons and tons of different women who his, you know, relationships

00:31:24.140 with are like ambiguous, but definitely seem to be simultaneous, right? So like, there's different

00:31:29.780 like models here. And I think it's interesting to look at what they have in common, which is what

00:31:35.480 they have in common is a sense of racial superiority. What they have in common is a sense

00:31:41.440 of like gender binarism, which they are very vigilant about enforcing. All of these people 0.99

00:31:46.720 are super anti-trans, even if they're not really as explicitly anti-gay, which I think is also an

00:31:52.200 interesting emerging distinction. And they're all really specific about what they believe the

00:31:58.060 purpose of women is, right? They very much believe that there is nothing a woman can be doing

00:32:03.920 in a university or in a career or in public life that is equal to what she could be doing

00:32:11.540 by having a genetically appropriate baby. And I think you can view the Trump administration's

00:32:17.640 attacks on the Department of Education and his declaration that he's going to eliminate it

00:32:22.580 in that same vein where you see that education levels also have a negative correlation with

00:32:30.100 birth rates. The less education you have, the more likely you aren't going to be educated about

00:32:35.540 contraception. And so you're more likely to have babies. You're also more likely to be of lower 0.56

00:32:40.720 income and not have access to the health care that would allow you to make more reproductive 0.99

00:32:45.460 choices. And in what you're talking about is this fascist hallmark, which is this attempt to go back

00:32:54.840 to this imagined past, right? You'll see this all the time. It's even in the slogan, make America

00:33:00.660 great again, or how can we reclaim our heritage or the blood of our country, even in the most

00:33:07.080 extreme examples. And the past that they describe is never really the reality, but it's a way to not

00:33:14.820 have a vision for folks that talks about improving the future or changing things proactively or even

00:33:21.040 dealing with the facts of how our society is currently constructed and giving people a fantasy

00:33:26.840 to look back towards. And oftentimes that fantasy, because the people who are trafficking in these

00:33:32.360 politics are fascists or are on the right, it involves an imagined past, which means white men, 0.53

00:33:38.600 your superiority is elevated and that includes this vision of a nuclear family that's increasingly

00:33:46.120 impossible for men in this country to achieve you had a great episode last week uh matt on

00:33:52.440 alpha males and emma you are so nice to me on my own podcast thank you so much i mean how else will

00:33:59.940 i get invited back i gotta suck up here um but i've been sending it to people and the their 0.75

00:34:07.440 response has been great too, because it really does, I think, hit on this reactionary anti-feminist 0.75

00:34:13.660 moment that we're currently in, which includes the backlash to Me Too and the influencers that

00:34:18.980 have come out of that space, which is that they seek to empower men in ways that are deeply

00:34:25.560 dangerous and I think are contributed greatly to Donald Trump's victory in the fall. This

00:34:31.080 influencer space, this right wing alpha male influencer space is designed to give men this

00:34:37.340 sense of empowerment. And that's in part because we are at levels of incoming wealth inequality

00:34:42.800 that are pre just complete disaster levels at this moment. I saw that, right, there's this new

00:34:49.520 data that shows that the average debt that an American consumer has is over $100,000 that we're

00:34:57.800 hitting new records of credit card debt. DoorDash just did a deal with Klarna so that people can

00:35:06.020 finance the meals, the $25 that they're ordering on DoorDash and do it over four installments,

00:35:12.080 which means the people that have to make that kind of purchase are more likely to be of lower

00:35:17.500 income. And that means that they may not be able to make the second, third or fourth payment. And

00:35:21.640 then the interest rates skyrocket. It's almost like a payday lender that all of these companies

00:35:27.420 have installed into their checkout services that is capitalizing on the financial precarity that

00:35:33.140 people are experiencing. And it's going to continue to get worse under Donald Trump's

00:35:36.060 tariffs. The reason I bring this up is that men, young men are likely feeling like, OK,

00:35:43.460 I've been told I should be a provider and that I should have a family and this nuclear family

00:35:48.400 is important to me. And that's increasingly impossible for people if you're under the age

00:35:53.680 of 50 basically so where do they look they look to these influencers that say actually you may

00:35:59.600 feel out of control of your life economically but you can control your woman you can control

00:36:04.180 how you interact with women you can control how you appear to women and they will come to you

00:36:09.620 you don't even have to worry about it you can just get jacked up and just do this routine

00:36:13.380 that's one piece of it but then there's this pronatalism trad wife thing which is a version 1.00

00:36:20.340 of that, but it's about making women into submissive creatures that bear your babies. 0.99

00:36:24.760 And I think these are both right wing branches off the same kind of rotted core.

00:36:30.800 Emma, I think that's such a smart point because it's one of the most crucial Marxist feminist 0.96

00:36:36.320 insights that subordination of women in the private sphere, in the home, in the dating

00:36:42.260 relationship is what allows men who are maybe being exploited in the workplace to feel like

00:36:50.760 they have a degree of control so that they don't rebel against their public sphere or working

00:36:55.960 sphere overlords, right? It's a way of distracting and buying off the exploited male worker by giving 0.99

00:37:03.800 him somebody else to punch down on. But I also wanted to bring back your point about the imagined

00:37:09.500 past, because I also think male supremacy is really crucial to how these creepy pronatalists

00:37:16.320 are imagining the future, right? You mentioned earlier, Emma, and I think you touched on this 0.56

00:37:20.760 as well, Matt, that these people tend to have a lot of boys, or at least they seem to prioritize

00:37:28.120 the births of male children and get very upset when those assigned male children might have

00:37:33.960 other ideas about their identity and their lives, like Elon Musk's wonderful trans daughter, Vivian.

00:37:39.120 Vivian posted about how she basically said Elon genetically tests so that he only has boys. And part of the reason he was so angry about my transition is partially, yes, that I was trans and now he's like on this whole anti-woke crusade, but also that I would no longer be his son.

00:37:56.240 Right.

00:37:56.620 He's an unhappy customer.

00:37:57.960 Right. And, you know, there's something there about how they envision the future, right? When these guys talk about restoring Western civilization and making America great again, they imagine themselves as the heroes of a heroic project of civilizational restoration, of turning back the clock on time, on cultural progress, on the toppling of these hierarchies that has been accomplished by social movements.

00:38:23.200 And they imagine the heroes of that future as male. They think that only men can do things like become technological innovators. They think that only men can do things like become political leaders. They think that only men can do things like make great art or have a vision for the future, right?

00:38:43.000 That's why they're prioritizing those births. That's why they are so strict in their vision that men are for the public world and women are for making babies. It's why they are so aggressively antagonistic towards transition and trans life expression. It's because they have very specific visions of who are going to be the heroes of the future. And that's boys. 0.85

00:39:05.960 And that's capitalist in the sense that this is a vision that's also anti-humanist, right? Where they don't necessarily see beauty in human expression or in the chance of maybe I'll have a girl or a boy and there's beauty in finding out and there's beauty in having this experience together with your partner.

00:39:26.520 And you can gender selection if you have the resources to do it. But the reason that they're doing it is because they see their boys as ways to extend their kind of capital reproduction beyond their life as extensions of their view of themselves as superhumans.

00:39:45.260 And this isn't in the sense that they think they can fly, but it is in the sense that they think that they are the kings of the world that should be able to have their sons carry on their legacy.

00:39:55.620 They are adopting in the Curtis Yarvin vein and a monarchical vision, these tech feudalists of how they should continue society.

00:40:04.720 And they feel like it's their solemn duty.

00:40:07.060 It's just narcissism.

00:40:08.080 And they're enabled by the billions of dollars that they've accumulated.

00:40:11.580 Yeah, we're going to talk about Elon Musk in greater detail later in the outline. But he did sneak peek. He did exchange texts with Ashley St. Clair, one of his many baby mothers, saying that like, no army that's ever won a war was made up of women.

00:40:29.360 but but it just lends itself to what you're saying of like he sees the struggle for the

00:40:35.400 future of civilization as like uh you know a war that he's leading that he has to create an army

00:40:41.360 of his children but let's not get too far i want to talk about natal con oh my god are you guys

00:40:48.040 excited for this year's natal con oh yeah i'm gonna be tripping balls it's like a nightmare

00:40:53.620 blood rotation it's the worst i went to natal con and i did ketamine in the bathroom wait did

00:41:00.020 you guys hear about natal con that part of their planned programming was that they were going to

00:41:05.220 have like a speed dating or matchmaking service and then not enough women showed up they did it

00:41:10.120 they did it there were two women you're getting ahead okay okay okay what is natal con tell us

00:41:17.620 all about it i thought you would never ask i asked you to ask

00:41:21.340 so natal con is

00:41:26.360 i started this podcast to talk about gay culture 0.93

00:41:31.440 this is the opposite of that matt gotta say this is the straightest culture unfortunately

00:41:38.900 our world took a nosedive and now i have to talk about natal con i used to write about lesbian

00:41:44.640 history and like now i'm just i'm in the trenches with you matt i mean i guess i am talking about

00:41:50.920 gay culture in the sense that all i ever talk about now is peter teal who unfortunately and

00:41:55.140 i don't know if he knows this is a gay man but anyway natal con is i mean it's a natal convention

00:42:05.260 it is an annual pro natalist convention founded by the white supremacist kevin dolan who was 0.50

00:42:13.800 actually fired from his previous job after his like fake alt twitter which was like a white

00:42:19.520 supremacist fake alt twitter was like uncovered and now he runs natal con fun fact he started

00:42:26.540 natal con after watching the tucker carlson documentary the end of men do you guys remember 0.96

00:42:32.400 that oh my god is that the one where he like sunned his balls yes yes kevin dolan watched 0.79

00:42:40.220 this tucker carlson documentary which was about quote collapsing testosterone levels in the west 0.99

00:42:46.180 where tucker carlson advocated testicle tanning

00:42:49.640 oh god the words that are coming out please i pray he's never done that i don't want that mental 0.97

00:42:56.400 image in my brain yeah nobody nobody think about tucker carlson doing any testicle tanning right 0.96

00:43:03.120 i need to like bleach my eyes i need to bleach the back of my brain i need a lobotomy 0.96

00:43:09.400 yeah it's this annual convention it's in its third year some journalists have gone and covered this

00:43:18.640 emma goldberg for the new york times attended it and she wrote quote roughly 200 people had

00:43:23.760 flown in for the natal conference an event devoted to discussing collapsing fertility rates

00:43:29.100 there were churchgoing conservatives and silicon valley technologists parents of five and parents

00:43:35.180 of Nine, edgelords in leather jackets, and women in lily Pulitzer. I love that we all know exactly

00:43:42.000 what that means. Yes. All sharing a common concern, how to convince Americans, namely American women,

00:43:49.360 to have more babies. It was also written about in detail in Politico, which noted that tickets for

00:43:57.220 natal con went for up to a thousand dollars so so there are like all these panels led by mostly

00:44:04.200 like right-wing provocateurs i mean the speaker lineup included simone and malcolm collins

00:44:10.020 jack posobiec who's like just like a white supremacist twitter influencer raw egg nationalist

00:44:16.440 which is the pseudonym for another white supremacist twitter influencer and they had all

00:44:20.820 these panels and to your point moira used they had like uh they had they had um a most eligible

00:44:28.300 natalist like natalist bachelorette but it was all men showed up and it was just like two women

00:44:34.940 how do you even pitch yourself on like a date with a pro natalist you're like i have most of my eggs

00:44:40.060 left like it's got to be so dehumanizing and there were men who spoke to journalists at these events

00:44:44.840 and when the journalists were like where are all the women the men were like they're home having

00:44:50.340 babies which like on some level i guess like it's dark to think that there are no women that are part

00:44:55.600 of this movement and it's actually probably darker to think that there are and that they are actually

00:44:59.880 home like just being really pregnant has somebody who studies a lot of right-wing anti-feminist

00:45:05.460 women as part of my podcast in bed with the right wherever you get your podcast available now sorry

00:45:10.160 plug it plug it it's good thank you we had a blast talking to you but one thing you see all the time

00:45:18.460 is that when they have women, they put women front and center. And there's always money to

00:45:25.240 be made for a woman who's good on a microphone to travel around the country having a very high 1.00

00:45:31.500 powered career, telling other women not to have careers. It's like they do not blink at the 0.78

00:45:36.860 hypocrisy. They love it because it makes them look less sexist when they have women at the front of

00:45:42.820 their movement. The anti-choice movement does it too. I feel like if they had the women,

00:45:46.640 they would be there like they would have shelled out for the babysitter or like conscripted

00:45:51.600 grandmother to do it i think this is a mostly male intervention which is not to say that there

00:45:58.900 aren't crazy women trust me i i know them all um but i feel like you know simone collins

00:46:06.160 is there grinning next to her husband and every one of these profiles like for a reason well

00:46:13.020 speaking of women who they're really putting up front and center of this movement another one of 0.83

00:46:18.780 the speakers was amanda bradford who you might remember her from the photo at the beginning 1.00

00:46:25.560 who we put a pin in we're about to take that pin out dun dun dun she's back there it is you were

00:46:32.100 right it's check off so what's your name i was reading articles about natal con and amanda

00:46:40.500 bradford would be described as a dating app entrepreneur she said in one of the times that

00:46:46.360 she was speaking at natal con quote we're going to fix the birth rate decline in this room do you

00:46:53.300 know what app amanda bradford is the founder of and ceo of can i guess yes bumble no no it's 0.80

00:47:00.240 unfortunately not like a big one like that that like normal people use oh damn but it's the league

00:47:04.880 oh it's the league i was gonna say is it the right stuff but that might be too on-the-nose 0.87

00:47:09.720 republican the right stuff what's i've been married for million years what's the league

00:47:14.660 okay oh i'm so excited to talk about this i have been annoyed by the league since before i had a

00:47:22.100 podcast and i never thought i'd have the chance to talk about it okay the league and emma feel

00:47:28.040 free to chime in whenever you want i'm ready but like okay the league is a dating app that

00:47:35.600 posits itself as like the dating app for especially motivated and successful and career-driven

00:47:43.780 young professionals to even use it you have to apply and the the company will analyze your

00:47:50.300 education levels your degrees your profession your social influence if you do get accepted

00:47:58.300 to the app a basic membership costs drumroll 99 a month while higher tiers like owner which

00:48:10.200 whatever costs between 249 and a thousand dollars a month oh my god what a grift and the thing is

00:48:20.120 i wouldn't even know about this because there's no part of like my internet usage that would

00:48:25.220 lead you know the league targeted ads to target me but they did a huge out of home campaign of ads

00:48:35.060 here in New York City that if you were like using the subways you saw these ads they were everywhere

00:48:41.720 and they annoyed the shit out of me because there were posters I put some in the outline if you guys

00:48:46.080 have it open and I'm going to throw them on the screen if you're watching the video version of 0.66

00:48:49.420 this episode but there were all these ads it was like dating puns but with like annoying elitist

00:48:54.920 twists and punts so it's like be a goal digger feel the giant goal in your heart and then there's

00:49:02.080 this one date someone so ambitious they make you want to ipo your pants

00:49:08.880 my thing with the league my thing with the league and baby as a lot of these types of people love to

00:49:18.580 say it is a free country if you want to get on the league get on the league i don't think i've

00:49:22.400 ever ranted this passionately about anything i also like the ipo your pants is like oh you'll

00:49:28.800 pee your pants is that the reaction you get to a hot person uh sorry to cut you off ma'am i think 0.96

00:49:34.540 it's supposed to i don't know i interpret it as like you like like you like cum or something right 1.00

00:49:40.100 right i get it but it doesn't sound like cum it sounds like pee no it's just it's just stupid 0.99

00:49:45.180 it's just stupid is what it is my most generous interpretation of this pun is like the most 1.00

00:49:50.200 closest thing we can think of to an orgasm is a initial public offering like i'm sorry like you 0.99

00:49:56.460 need to get laid you need to get laid if you want to if you want to but my thing with the league

00:50:07.760 is isn't an app that advertises itself like this going to attract the worst possible people because

00:50:16.040 you have to think of yourself. You have to see these ads. You have to think so highly of yourself

00:50:21.240 like, yes, I am inherently more motivated and driven than other young people my age.

00:50:28.020 That's why I don't even really understand what people mean when they say young professional

00:50:31.560 because it's like, yeah, we all have jobs. It feels like this attracts just a pool of

00:50:40.160 insufferable people who see these ads and think it's about them.

00:50:43.720 Yeah, I mean, I will say I haven't been in the dating pool for over eight years. So I'm also not like I'm engaged. I'm getting married actually in a month and a half. Thank you. But I met my fiance on hinge. But I did like apply to all of them back in the day. And I didn't get into the league because like whatever you applied to the league. I did. Well, I did. It was like eight years, eight, nine years ago or something. I didn't know how bad it was at the time or whatever.

00:51:10.620 but now aren't you so happy that you never got in and you never gave them your well i did get in

00:51:14.560 right but like four years later after i'd already been in this long-term relationship and after of

00:51:20.440 course i started being a public ish figure on the internet and then they were able to verify that i

00:51:26.900 was cool enough but prior to that my college wasn't good enough and i wasn't hot enough so

00:51:31.280 they had discarded me and then all of a sudden maybe i get verified on twitter or something like 0.96

00:51:35.720 that back in the day and then they bring you along but it's just like the dumb it's the most 0.85

00:51:40.940 it is protonatalism before protonatalism in the sense that like yeah like only this certain kind 0.94

00:51:48.420 of person like bring the capitalist grind culture into your bedroom is basically what they want you

00:51:54.180 to do and that that sounds like the worst thing of all time well it literally strikes me as like 0.50

00:52:00.760 a eugenics dating app. Yeah. And I know that might sound dramatic, but honestly, spend two 0.91

00:52:06.180 seconds on the league's website. It calls itself, quote, a selective and high quality community of

00:52:14.140 motivated daters looking for meaningful long term relationships. Anytime you describe someone as

00:52:19.860 high quality, it's like incel or eugenicist. I think about like Andrew Tate talking about high

00:52:25.080 value men, or I think about like the Collins is talking about high quality birth. Yeah, it assumes

00:52:30.420 that there's a way to rank the worth of human life so that not all people are equal. Yes. And

00:52:36.000 that like that the people who would be doing that would not necessarily be at the bottom of any such

00:52:40.900 worth ranking. You know, it's just like, oh, no, we are telling you and avowing that we think that

00:52:46.340 we're better than other people. And that's why we should only be together. Right. It's also like

00:52:50.620 anti-pluralist. Right. It's like, no, no, you don't want to be with the riffraff. You want to

00:52:55.320 be in a place where it's only these worthy people these better people who have been like measured

00:53:00.640 and judged it's such a depressing exercise i'm just like sad now it's exclusive and privatized

00:53:06.540 like that's what the vision of of the right is and it is interesting to view the trump

00:53:13.260 administration through this lens because we're talking about these people and they're freaks and

00:53:18.840 we get it right but someone like elon musk the richest man on the planet who was a part of the

00:53:24.580 administration for quite a while and probably is still calling a lot of the shots behind the

00:53:28.680 scenes. If you view certain populations increasing as some sort of threat and other populations

00:53:36.300 decreasing as a problem and that they need to increase, well, how is that going to inform

00:53:42.340 foreign policy, for example? You know, I return to this because I just can't stop thinking about it.

00:53:47.760 But I mean, right, there hasn't been food that has gotten into Gaza for over a month.

00:53:52.720 And I think that you can't view this administration as, you know, eugenicist, but also genocidal without understanding how those two things interconnect, including the doge cuts to USAID, which we know resulted in immediate HIV infections among kids who were relying on the United States as already threadbare supplementary aid to get their medication.

00:54:18.400 There are going to be tens of thousands of children that die of AIDS because of Elon Musk and because of this administration. And how can you separate this from the eugenicism of Elon Musk's ideology when it comes to protonatalism? And the other eugenicist elements of this administration, which I would say include RFK and his libertarian view of public health.

00:54:40.700 Should we talk about Ballerina Farm a little bit?

00:54:42.400 Sure. Matt, I'm so sorry if I jumped the gun.

00:54:45.080 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:54:46.120 You're so good at making all these connections and drawing it all together. So like you can't you can't lose sight of the big picture, which is really wonderful. I appreciate it. I'm just I don't want to talk too much. It's not my show. So let me know if I'm being annoying in any way.

00:54:58.620 you're perfect i just yelled for like three and a half minutes straight about how stupid this 0.99

00:55:03.860 fucking dating app is but it really is like because you are so good at drawing all these 0.99

00:55:09.380 connections and i think that's that's the connection i have to bring to this right which 0.99

00:55:12.940 is like the ceo of this like weird elitist dating app that i've always had weird feelings about but

00:55:19.000 it's like oh she's also speaking at the weird eugenicist pronatalist convention because when

00:55:26.080 this is the fundamental mindset that you have about the world and about like who gets the

00:55:30.500 privilege and who should even be forced to like multiply into the future. You get it in every

00:55:36.360 facet of life, whether it's dating, whether it's lawmaking, it's like these people's paw prints are

00:55:42.400 all over all of this. And it's so unsettling. Was that was that incoherent? No, it's perfect. I mean,

00:55:47.700 I think this is so much of what it is, right? It imagines a future that is like the past. The

00:55:53.600 phrase I've heard that describes this as like retro futurism. In the future, we will have

00:55:59.860 this utopian restoration of all of our previous social hierarchies where women will be in their 1.00

00:56:06.320 proper place and people of color will like just conveniently vanish and we won't have to deal 1.00

00:56:10.800 with this annoying trans thing, right? It's this image that like by having as many babies as 1.00

00:56:18.460 possible and by, you know, privatizing as much as possible, they can like get rid of history,

00:56:22.980 Right. But history is still there and it's still happened and is still going to continue happening with or without them.

00:56:29.520 So there's something like really futile about the pro natalist movement.

00:56:32.080 Right. I think they're going to do a lot of damage, definitely to human dignity and to like the dignity of women with their influence on like our discursive world.

00:56:41.760 But they are not going to succeed in creating the future that they want, because there's going to be people like us in the future, whether they like it or not. 0.58

00:56:50.360 And I think that they're aided by this country's eroding critical empathy and our inability, I think, sometimes to understand how people outside of this country, I mean, even in this country, we struggle.

00:57:05.240 But it's particularly in the global South, how we have created a system that simulates how capitalism operated under slavery, where that labor was onshore and it was here in the United States. 0.78

00:57:21.100 But then when we globalized, we made countries like China the factory of the world. And we created these supply lines that were incredibly intricate, but relied on the cheapest labor possible, oftentimes in the global south. And then they don't have the education or the resources to have birth control and their population increases.

00:57:42.560 And here in the United States, we benefit as fat cats from importing all of these goods cheaply. And then there are some people who have the privilege to be able to make those choices for themselves. And then they see the rest of the world as a bit of a problem, even though their very existence is dependent on the fact that these people are exploited.

00:58:04.300 And so we see this viewpoint of people who have had worse luck than, say, you know, the genetic lottery of being born in the United States. You see that and how people justify that and justify the oppression of those people manifest itself even in the pro natalist movement.

00:58:22.200 And I think it's a part of our foreign policy. It's a part of the current fight over tariffs, right, and how the Trump administration is approaching that and this protectionism that's entirely counterproductive. But it is this simulation of some of the almost domestic dynamics of racism that we see here, but applying it to the global south and an increasingly globalized world.

00:58:43.900 So as we are protectionist in the United States with our trade policy, this is almost like a protectionist insular close rank around a certain race, around a certain ideology, around a certain genetic structure to make this kind of person work, as opposed to understanding that, like, we need to overhaul these systems that are repressing people that lead to this kind of thing.

00:59:06.740 But eventually, fascist movements are born out of this kind of structural inequality.

00:59:12.420 And we're at a zenith in that period right now.

00:59:15.360 I want to take a quick break from the show to thank Rocket Money for sponsoring today's

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01:00:53.920 slash fruity. That is rocketmoney.com slash fruity. Now, let's get back to talking about

01:01:01.420 these freaks. Most people, even people who might agree with some of what pronatalists think,

01:01:08.400 they probably don't know what pronatalism is, and they're certainly not like fervent

01:01:12.560 pronatalist activists. Like I mentioned, you know, this pronatalist conference had 200 people.

01:01:18.000 It's not that many people. But I do think the ideas that are at the root of pronatalism find ways to present and market themselves in things that feel more benign and that reach a lot more people. And this is where, and I'm always excited to get to invoke her, we talk about Ballerina Farm.

01:01:37.580 how many children does she have now um let me google it how many ballerina farm children eight 0.82

01:01:48.900 so ballerina farm if you don't know she is the most famous i would argue trad wife influencer

01:01:59.240 she has over 10 million instagram followers her name is hannah nealman she is an episode in and 0.99

01:02:05.360 of herself she and her weird like shitty husband who's a jet blue airline air it's a separate

01:02:12.680 episode that i've been like wanting and thinking about making and actually i was talking if you're 0.87

01:02:18.300 big on youtube you might know princess weeks we've been talking about making an episode about that

01:02:22.940 but you know she basically just presents this beautiful utah looking farm life with her million

01:02:31.100 children running around in the cornfields and her husband who's like always dressed like a cowboy

01:02:35.940 and she's always in these dresses and like her kitchen is wooden and beautiful and like everything

01:02:40.940 that she uses to cook with is like wooden and beautiful and she sells replicas of those things

01:02:45.320 online but she has a huge draw people i know in my home life like follow ballerina farm on instagram

01:02:53.020 and she's obviously not you know getting on instagram reels and talking about civilizational

01:02:59.620 warfare and population decline. But she is obviously showing people that a life well lived

01:03:06.900 is a life with a million children where even though you're making like seven figures by like

01:03:10.940 selling the content related to that family lifestyle, you know, that's under the surface.

01:03:16.380 The fact is she's selling a lifestyle. Yeah. And she's also selling a vision of a domesticated

01:03:23.000 woman to an audience that may not just be women like a lot of sometimes these mommy influencers 0.99

01:03:29.040 Are there to speak to women or people who can get pregnant or just parents in general about, say, what are some great tips in terms of child care that we can provide for you?

01:03:41.160 These are like innocuous, largely influencers on the Internet. But what this vision is, is it's almost simulating, I would say, a sort of pornography for men, which you get to see women domesticated in the home acting like, you know, they just stepped out of a meadow in the Netherlands or something like that, running through sunflowers and showing an idealized world that doesn't actually exist.

01:04:09.260 but they pretend previously existed as is a hallmark of fascist propaganda.

01:04:14.540 And it gets men to feel like, gosh, if I only found a woman like this,

01:04:19.640 all of my problems with society that I had talked about earlier about the lack of economic opportunity for men in this country,

01:04:28.160 all of that can be solved if I just found this kind of person.

01:04:31.460 And if my girlfriend or my prospective romantic partners are not like this,

01:04:36.160 well, there's probably something wrong with them.

01:04:39.260 And then we get back to just rank misogyny.

01:04:42.700 And that's where this influencer space, I think, leads to.

01:04:46.360 I also brought a ballerina farm.

01:04:47.920 I promise, dear listener, I don't try to shoehorn her into whenever I can talk about her.

01:04:53.780 But I also bring her up because when I was reading about NatalCon, there was a NatalCon

01:04:58.940 attendee who told a journalist who was reporting on NatalCon that she went to NatalCon because

01:05:06.040 she wanted to be in community in person with other pro natalists because when she goes home,

01:05:11.700 she feels like all she has is ballerina farm. So there is something genuinely drawing people

01:05:18.160 into the pro natalist movement from, you know, following ballerina farm and people like her.

01:05:22.800 Oh, yeah. I mean, ballerina farm is a commercial enterprise, and it is also an ideological

01:05:28.640 propaganda enterprise. And she is trying to convince and convert her largely female audience 1.00

01:05:36.620 into a lifestyle that, as Emma mentioned, everybody who actually lived it, both farming 0.61

01:05:42.100 and having an unlimited number of children, is something that everybody with the opportunity to

01:05:46.480 stop doing that immediately does. People fled agriculture to work in not particularly good

01:05:54.060 factory jobs in the 19th century because agriculture was so, so, so, so hard.

01:05:58.720 Every community in which women have opportunities for education, opportunities for health care 0.99

01:06:04.420 access, opportunities to do something with their life other than have a ton of children, 0.97

01:06:08.860 every single community like that experiences a birth rate decrease, right? Because when people

01:06:13.180 have the option to not live this way, that Hannah Neelman is trying to convince them to live,

01:06:18.400 They take it, right? So part of what I think is going on is that the ballerina farms,

01:06:24.820 the pronatalist movement, it can only get this kind of cachet because people don't quite know

01:06:31.420 what it really means, right? Because there's an ignorance and a little bit of a novelty

01:06:35.560 about what these lives look like in reality, which is very, very different from how they're

01:06:40.520 being presented on, say, Instagram. People don't actually want to live like this, right?

01:06:45.260 Like people love their families, but like also people love families that they're in that look maybe more like mine, right?

01:06:52.020 Where there might not be children or there might be gay parents, right?

01:06:55.220 Like this is an attempt to retrofit something really complicated and very personal, which is like familial love and personal ambition and gender expression back into like an extremely narrow and prescriptive vision that doesn't fit with people's actual desires. 0.94

01:07:14.100 Because when people have the opportunity to have smaller families with children, they get to like spend more time with and invest more resources in and love a little more and more personally, they tend to do that.

01:07:26.280 And when people get the opportunity to live lives that are, you know, beyond what is very narrowly prescribed for their gender, be that like the incredibly restrictive vision of femininity that these people have or about gender roles more broadly.

01:07:41.640 They do that because the human spirit is indomitable and people want to live in individual

01:07:47.780 ways that are about more than just checking the boxes in some form held up by an evangelical

01:07:55.740 mega church pastor.

01:07:57.220 We are just more creative and more inventive and weirder and freer than these people want

01:08:03.620 us to be.

01:08:04.400 So I want to move from Ballerina Farm to Elon Musk, who we've peppered into this episode,

01:08:10.920 But we're going to talk about specifics because I think Elon, it's fair to say, is like the world's most powerful pro-natalist.

01:08:19.560 He's also a violent misogynist.

01:08:21.940 And I think people like everyone in the United States is very aware that Elon Musk is kind of this like overlord figure hanging over us right now.

01:08:30.640 And myself included, like we often joke a lot about like, oh, he has so many kids and that.

01:08:35.460 But I don't think people who aren't closely paying attention to like the Elon of it all are acutely aware of how crazy and violent and dark his like personal life and childbearing life has become.

01:08:52.280 There was this Wall Street Journal expose that came out very recently about the Ashley St. Clair situation. If you don't know and you didn't listen to Moira's and my episode about it, Ashley St. Clair is a 26 year old conservative influencer who had it's actually not even Elon's most recent confirmed child anymore.

01:09:12.860 but at the time we made that episode three months ago, it was. But she had a child with Elon and has

01:09:19.140 been sort of duking it out with him publicly on Twitter since because he refused to take a

01:09:25.780 paternity test and she acknowledged him as a father, which he didn't want her to do. And so

01:09:32.540 this article kind of explained some of what was happening behind the scenes, which I will walk

01:09:37.840 you through a little bit. So before the public knew about any of this, Elon, through his fixer,

01:09:46.200 offered Ashley a lump sum of $15 million with an additional $100,000 a month until the child

01:09:52.280 turned 21 in exchange for keeping Elon's name off the birth certificate and staying silent about

01:09:57.940 their relationship. She did keep Elon's name off the birth certificate, but she didn't sign the

01:10:03.620 agreement citing concerns about things like the fact that she wouldn't be able to talk about him

01:10:08.160 but he would continue to be able to talk about her and while they were hashing this out Ashley

01:10:13.960 learned that the tabloids had found out about their relationship and their baby and were going

01:10:19.060 to publish it anyway so she got ahead of the story and posted this statement on Twitter that we've

01:10:25.480 talked about in previous episodes where she was basically like I had a child five months ago the

01:10:29.960 father is Elon. After she posted that, Elon terminated the $15 million offer. And by the

01:10:36.640 time the Wall Street Journal just came out with this, Elon's team had only ever paid her $20,000,

01:10:42.100 which doesn't even cover like a small fraction of the legal fees that she will inevitably need to

01:10:47.580 pay for because they're like having this legal battle over whether or not he'll take a paternity

01:10:51.760 test, which he ended up taking. And the results from LabCorp came back stating that the probability

01:10:57.900 of paternity was 99.9999%. I mention all of this here because this is a pattern with how Elon has

01:11:09.960 treated the women who have had his children. We know Grimes is publicly on Twitter begging Elon

01:11:16.320 to respond to concerns about their child's health condition. And Elon just continues to do this thing

01:11:24.440 with 14 plus children. I say 14 plus because this article also spoke to unnamed sources who said

01:11:31.760 that the actual number of children Elon has is much higher than the public is aware of. But he

01:11:37.780 seems to literally be trying to create what he calls a legion of children because he is a

01:11:44.900 pro-natalist and he fears civilizational decline if he does not populate the world with little 0.97

01:11:51.100 Elons. And he has no care for the women. He has disdain for the women who he employs to do this 1.00

01:11:59.420 work for him. I think the key word there is employees, right? Like this, what Ashley St.

01:12:03.940 Claire is describing her experience with Elon and with his representatives is an employment 0.94

01:12:09.900 arrangement and kind of an exploitative shitty one, right? Like this is not a partner. This is

01:12:15.420 not somebody you're in family with. This is not somebody who's treating you as an equal or as an

01:12:20.300 entity worthy of respect. This is somebody who thinks he can buy you and will punish you with

01:12:26.040 money and with the law if you don't behave the way he wants to. So I think the other thing we

01:12:31.920 need to talk about when we talk about pronatalism is that it's not exactly pro-family because it

01:12:38.240 really vulgarizes and commodifies, in the Musk case, these relationships that we think of as

01:12:45.840 really kind of personally meaningful. It's clearly not personally meaningful to the pro-natalists

01:12:51.760 when all of his children are just numbers and their mothers are, you know, management problems

01:12:57.540 he has to solve. It undercuts the entire notion of family. I am old enough to remember the entire 0.95

01:13:05.540 Republican Party obsessing about the nuclear family as a way to disparage gay people and to 0.98

01:13:13.760 try to kill gay marriage. George W. Bush ran in 2004 on the notion that he would do a constitutional

01:13:23.360 amendment if he got back into power to make sure that there was no LGBTQ marriage in the country

01:13:29.660 for the rest of time. And so this is as core to the Republican ideology as anything, the homophobia,

01:13:35.740 But the complete fiction and the veneer of wanting to promulgate the nuclear family and traditional values has been disposed of by Donald Trump's very existence, but also all of the acolytes that have become a part of this movement, including Elon Musk.

01:13:52.680 And so I think a competent opposition party and the Democrats will be pointing out this inherent contradiction about how they say they're for family values. But when it gets to its its core, to the seed at the center, you see that it's about control. And Elon Musk, yeah, he may be creating children, but he's not a part of a family. He's not a part of that family. He's not providing emotional support to those children.

01:14:19.200 they're they're not creating a life together it's just about breeding his dna and so frankly i think

01:14:26.320 there are a lot of conservative men that view their children with that same level of narcissism

01:14:31.380 it's why parents can't accept trans kids i think there's a lot of misogynistic fathers that don't

01:14:38.420 understand how could you reject the dominant gender for this other gender xyz right like

01:14:44.520 there's all this misogyny that's inherent in the transphobia in this country but even when it comes

01:14:48.740 down to parental rights and how the right has been going at school boards and trying to censor

01:14:54.280 certain kinds of books that may promote LGBTQ equality. They'll say this is about parental

01:14:59.920 rights. They'll say this is about family. They'll say it's about protecting kids. But at the end of

01:15:04.220 the day, it's as ridiculous as the nuclear family arguments were back in the Bush days, because once 0.67

01:15:10.200 you get down to brass tacks, it's about control and it's about suppressing anybody that doesn't

01:15:15.660 fit into a very specifically narrow box of how you should live your life. And the more you drill

01:15:21.160 into it, it gets narrower and narrower. I think it's so interesting because we

01:15:26.580 started the episode talking about the Collinses. You look at the photo shoots that they do for

01:15:31.660 these interviews that they do with The Guardian, with The Telegraph, with Washington Post,

01:15:36.300 and they look like ballerina farm photographs. You know, they have the kids, they're swinging

01:15:40.820 in the grass. They're so happy. And of course, we talked about Ballerina Farm. But I think it's

01:15:45.880 really helpful to talk about the violent misogyny of Elon Musk's personal life, because it is

01:15:53.080 actually the most distilled version of the movement that all of these people are part of.

01:15:58.240 And it presents, I think, the clearest vision of what this is actually about, which both of you

01:16:02.800 have made very clear, is about control of people's bodies. This isn't about anything else. And it's

01:16:08.040 about eugenics and it's about building a future of white people right it's all white supremacy

01:16:12.180 and and so it's a right-wing movement uh congrats i'm sorry can we can we just like i feel like 0.88

01:16:19.800 we've done this throughout the episode but i really just want to dwell on how pathetic this 0.98

01:16:24.580 shit is it's like i need to be the best i need my genes to be the best i need other people to 0.99

01:16:30.820 live the way i think they should live it's like it's a product of people who i think have like 0.99

01:16:35.040 very little self-worth and it's so fucking weird yeah not to like tim walls it but like normal

01:16:42.920 people do not spend their days thinking about birth rate decline it's just like am i wrong i 0.83

01:16:51.020 don't know someone's gonna comment on this and be like i think about birth rate decline all the time

01:16:54.020 and i'm woke but like but like there it's just it's just weird it's it's a really weird thing

01:17:01.900 to preoccupy yourself with and it's then it's like obviously as we've demonstrated like a strain of

01:17:07.240 racist narcissism to think that you're the one who should be fixing it it's weird you're right 0.99

01:17:12.380 it's weird these people need a fucking hobby it's gross it's weird it also has the hallmarks of 0.98

01:17:17.300 cults and i you know in the sense of like giving people a purpose and this grandiose view of how 0.99

01:17:24.680 you save humanity via your own individual actions that should be disconnected from it with any

01:17:30.700 rational analysis but it's not because we have the secret trick it's totally a doomsday cult i

01:17:36.620 mean it is i don't think that's a stretch at all because you know i've read interviews with all

01:17:41.240 sorts of pro natalists when i was researching for this and they all talk about like the apocalypse

01:17:45.160 oh yeah oh yeah i mean i just had this conversation with naomi klein one of our you know great

01:17:50.740 Oh, not that flex.

01:17:56.200 We love Naomi Klein on this podcast.

01:17:59.500 One of my heroes and one of our best living thinkers and writers right now on the left in the English-speaking world.

01:18:07.860 She wrote a piece co-authored with Astra Taylor in The Guardian that I would encourage everybody to read.

01:18:13.700 And it talks about end times fascism and what connects the techno fascist right with the evangelical right wing movements. And it's also just like they've embraced the nihilism. The Trump administration and Elon Musk or whatever, they're post truthers, right? They don't care about this objective reality that we all share. They make their own truth via force. And that's usually via capitalism.

01:18:36.140 And so they don't care about any shared understanding, any shared collective humanity. It's all about let's get ours so we can get to Mars. And they don't view saving the planet as something that they need to do as people in power.

01:18:54.180 They view it as something that's inevitable and maybe something that they should accelerate for their own ends. And I see pronatalism very much in that very dystopian vision and a version of far right politics that I'm not sure we've ever seen, even though it's all the kind of the same contours.

01:19:11.980 But it is in many ways a response to the climate crisis, as is Elon Musk's fascism.

01:19:19.200 He says that his company, Tesla, was all about like, oh, let's reduce emissions.

01:19:24.540 And you know what the entire business model is reliant upon and being held together on with like duct tape and gum is carbon credits, which he sells to other companies.

01:19:35.200 So polluters can go over their emissions limit and anything that his company is offsetting is completely moot.

01:19:43.480 Doesn't that say everything about how he views the planet?

01:19:47.460 And that's what the right encapsulates here, I think, in this current moment.

01:19:52.720 How do we end this? You know what? I try to end on an uplifting note, but this is hard.

01:19:57.780 I mean, I just said the word end time words end times fashion.

01:20:00.360 i did write down this like core question that i wanted to finish on because we haven't even

01:20:08.100 recited the fact that like when most people saw for example this new york times article that was

01:20:13.040 like the white house is trying to get you to have more children most people responded with like i'll

01:20:17.800 have more children but i need some things from you like there there's no shortage i think of

01:20:22.720 people who want children but they can't afford them i wrote down this question it seems like

01:20:28.420 the main reason people are choosing to have less or no kids, right? One, yes, there's like a truth

01:20:33.620 about changing gender roles in society. And that has empowered some people to not want children, 1.00

01:20:38.800 which I think is a great thing. But for people who do want kids or want more kids, most of them

01:20:45.000 will tell you that they're not having them because the economic conditions and lack of social and

01:20:49.400 governmental support make it impossible, right? The most obvious fix in my mind is like increasing

01:20:55.520 the minimum wage, affordable childcare, paid leave, gun control. But the pro-natalist movement

01:21:01.860 doesn't seem interested in any of this. I mean, I was reading about things that like Malcolm

01:21:08.240 Collins has campaigned for. I don't know if you guys saw this, but he campaigned. Let me find my

01:21:14.040 notes on this. Malcolm Collins has advocated for bans on car seat requirements. Have you seen this?

01:21:22.000 what i'm sorry what because he says that requiring parents to have car seats

01:21:30.960 discourages people from having big families because he argues you can only fit so many car seats

01:21:38.860 into cars

01:21:40.280 oh my god oh my god oh my god

01:21:48.420 you know like i don't know if i were appointed like the simone collins of the pro natalist 0.87

01:21:57.120 movement i'd be like give people affordable child care and a higher minimum wage like

01:22:01.180 get their maternal mortality rate down like uh make it less less expensive and less physically

01:22:07.520 dangerous to give birth maybe don't defund medicaid which is the entire republican budget

01:22:12.980 plan which is responsible for over 40 percent of births in this country but this is when we come

01:22:18.060 back to how proto-natalism is just an extension of a eugenesis project um where they fundamentally

01:22:24.480 view our society as to giving to folks who are not contributing like the rest of the wealthy

01:22:31.860 people and to capitalists even though governments always redistribute wealth it's just a question of

01:22:37.340 how we redistribute it and we've been redistributing it all the way to the top to like

01:22:42.260 french revolutionary levels that's where we're at right now they are trying to get everybody to

01:22:48.540 blame people for their own conditions and to take on their own health care as like a libertarian

01:22:56.780 individualist enterprise the right kind of people who have the right kind of funds can create the

01:23:02.960 babies that will further western civilization they don't view our society as something that

01:23:08.920 is there to create the most amount of happiness for the most amount of people,

01:23:13.800 which is what a leftist vision is. They view it as a way to extract.

01:23:18.800 On a New York Times article about the pro-natalist movement and the pro-natalist women,

01:23:23.120 I was reading some comments and I wanted to end on this one from a woman named Diana from

01:23:28.220 Washington, D.C. Diana, wherever you are, hope you're well. She wrote,

01:23:33.240 Motherhood is hard work. Women who need motherhood to be a brand are pathetic. 1.00

01:23:38.260 Give it a rest, have children, or don't. 1.00

01:23:41.140 I had a few.

01:23:42.120 I didn't have them for the benefit of society or for Instagram.

01:23:45.620 Pro-natalists need to get it.

01:23:47.520 Misogyny is a feature of fascism, not a bug. 0.77

01:23:50.680 The U.S. is in the grip of politicians who are just fine with killing women through pregnancy 0.93

01:23:54.920 and childbirth.

01:23:56.480 Oh, and children are dying of hunger, disease, and mass shootings.

01:24:00.660 Rebrand that. 0.93

01:24:02.380 Saucy Diana clapping back at the pro-natalists.

01:24:05.120 This is what we need. 1.00

01:24:05.980 I feel like exhausted middle-aged liberal moms are actually the people we need to be 1.00

01:24:12.200 hearing from. 1.00

01:24:12.920 They may save us. 0.99

01:24:14.020 The wine moms have been vindicated, and I will follow Diana into battle at this point.

01:24:19.320 I'm getting texts like, hey, maybe Bernie was right.

01:24:23.280 I mean, we'll see if that lasts, but I think that there are some people that are getting

01:24:28.040 radicalized by this moment and seeing how liberalism is failing people, right?

01:24:35.360 where it's like liberal ideology for folks, like in terms of the way we should accept people in

01:24:42.240 society being pro-LGBTQ, anti-racist, whatever. Yeah, that part of liberalism works. But the

01:24:48.480 liberalism for the market is killing us. And the institutions that embrace both of those things,

01:24:54.020 like our law firms or universities, are capitulating to fascism because the liberalism

01:24:59.380 of society came secondary to the free market liberalism, which is what their profits are

01:25:04.840 based off of and so i think like there's some people looking around saying hey maybe the chuck

01:25:10.460 schumers of the world aren't our answer maybe it's the bernie aoc wing that knew what they

01:25:14.320 were talking about and we got to break these oligarchs and take their money 1.00

01:25:18.200 let it radicalize you yeah let this like lady in like a pilgrim outfit with her bonnet on and 1.00

01:25:27.960 and the fact that like she is intertwined like she has a direct ear in the white house like 0.96

01:25:33.100 let this radicalize you these people are crazy they're like in the handmaid's tale outfit like

01:25:38.280 for real like we all made fun of the handmaid's tale outfits at the women's march back in 26 0.76

01:25:42.980 2017 oh my god i'm dating myself but like now they are unironically wearing the bonnets like 0.99

01:25:48.620 it's time ladies it's time for a popular front to take these freaks down yep they'll uh they'll 1.00

01:25:54.200 behead me in a pussy hat. Emma and Moira, thank you so much for walking us down this very dark 1.00

01:26:06.560 journey, but one that I think people need to understand maybe on a deeper level than most of

01:26:13.940 us currently do, because it's happening quicker than most of us can keep up with. See, I think

01:26:18.760 we did have fun i think i was right i think we did have fun i think it's impossible not to have fun

01:26:25.340 with uh great folks like this so thanks so much matt moira for speaking with me today and i 0.89

01:26:30.940 appreciate you having me on that fuck the league i hope their app goes out of business 0.64

01:26:35.660 oh this was a blast thank you the listener for making it this far i so appreciate you 0.97

01:26:44.800 weird times but the pendulum is going to swing back and i have seen people on twitter

01:26:49.160 predicting that society is about to get woke on levels that we have never before seen and i am

01:26:56.540 clinging to that prediction personally i love you all and until next time stay fruity

A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - May 03, 2025

The Breeders Who Want You to Have More Kids Right Now

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