00:04:43.420I think the desire for authoritarian figures is directly connected to, like, our perception
00:04:51.660and yearning for this mythical masculinity that makes everyone feel safe and makes everything
00:04:59.920seem like it's in its right place and there's order.
00:05:02.340And of course, for the men, it becomes aspirational. And then once we are like our fearless leader, then the women will treat us with respect and they'll follow what we say.
00:05:14.040We won't have to develop personalities or we're deodorant and we'll still be able to get laid.
00:05:20.360So there's a ton there. There's a ton of masculine reclamation is where a lot of this energy comes from.0.89
00:05:27.240when he says fucking bitch to the woman he just shot in the head that's the act of masculine1.00
00:05:32.300reclamation he felt emasculated in the interaction he reclaimed it through violence and reclaiming1.00
00:05:37.860your masculine status through violence is one of the first things you're taught as a little boy
00:05:42.920and it clearly doesn't go away and for a lot of men it becomes something that ironically becomes
00:05:48.580a cage and so yeah yeah i think you're you know i'm sure people can quibble with semantics and
00:05:53.800whatnot. But no, I don't think this is too much of a reach at all. I think it's very spot on.
00:05:57.780It's all connected. The through line here is about power and control. It is about using groups like
00:06:04.680women, immigrants, queer people as scapegoats. And you have this administration and all those
00:06:11.780in power and their allies who use these groups as scapegoats in order to distract away from their
00:06:20.980horrific economic policies from how the system does not support these disenfranchised men in
00:06:28.980the same way it doesn't support any of us except for those who the system is built for. And I think1.00
00:06:35.060seeing the way that the performance of masculinity, that rage, that hatred towards women, towards
00:06:42.040immigrants pops up all the time, whether we're talking about ICE, whether we're talking about
00:06:46.700these looks maxers, these, these male streamers, it's all related. And I think these are young men0.99
00:06:54.500who they're vulnerable. Yes, but it's not as if they are in any different material position than
00:07:02.240the rest of us. It's just the way that society has told them, this is how men are supposed to be.
00:07:09.320This is what you are owed. And this is who has taken it from you. And this is how you get it
00:07:13.960back. I want to start by showing you to a video. This is filmed by a legal observer who is recording
00:07:23.000themselves speaking to an ICE agent who's sitting in his car and and threatening him. I will tell
00:07:28.900you this, brother. What? You know, I will tell you this. You raise your voice. I raise your voice.
00:07:35.100If I raise my voice, you'll erase my. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Are you serious? You said if I raise
00:07:40.460my voice, you'll erase my voice. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:07:43.960That probably sounded a lot cooler in his head.
00:07:47.340If you raise your voice, I'll erase your voice.
00:07:51.580That feels like it's taken like straight off of like an incel forum.
00:08:43.200it's very like get it's like chest puffed up hyper macho yeah what are you gonna do about it
00:08:49.740one thing i've always observed about the core figures like the cord i want to call them victims
00:08:55.980for the moment just for the moment of the red pill because they're usually the bottom rung
00:08:59.900the bottom rung red pill figures ironically are the biggest losers they're like incredibly bad
00:09:06.680And even to an extent, they also are usually the most socially ineffective there.0.86
00:09:12.660There's a high prevalence of both self-diagnosed and fully diagnosed neurodivergence and other behavioral health issues, so on and so forth.
00:09:21.100And one thing that you'll find when engaging and studying them as a lot of what they're doing, which I think this guy is doing, is imitating what they think the alpha males do under certain circumstances, which is why it sounded so stilted and unnatural.
00:09:36.680right like he didn't know if he had pulled the line like he's like like he wanted to get another
00:09:41.140take at it he's like that was the rehearsal can we run it back can we run it back like i really
00:09:45.720want to threaten you that sounded cooler can i just get that back and so like it's so much of
00:09:50.800that is in their behavior in their movement you know if we i don't know if we want to jump to
00:09:55.300alex preddy just yet no go for it go for it but like if you watch if you you know dare to watch
00:10:01.460the full events it's so clear that half of these men don't even know they've ever been in a fight
00:10:06.400before you know i'm saying let alone had like halfway decent law enforcement training and we
00:10:11.760know from looking at the the information coming out about ice that a lot of them don't a lot of
00:10:16.640them don't have a lot of training a lot of them don't have actual experience with law enforcement
00:10:21.420or military etc they're just getting guys that want to act out their their fantasies fantasy um
00:10:28.540and we see the result of that i think too this kind of recognizing that they can't cut it in
00:10:34.780any of those other law enforcement groups you know they're they're not signing up for the
00:10:38.880military it's like ice is now their their ticket to that yeah the low standards and i just do want
00:10:46.620to throw out there you mentioned elliot roger he's not the only one but numerous spree shooters and
00:10:52.040like these types of guys actually do attempt to join the military and the armed forces as a form
00:10:57.220of masculine reclamation because they may be a loser and these that and the third you know in
00:11:02.200their previous life but if they can make it to the military they really you really can't take
00:11:05.660masculinity away from you know a soldier so to speak it's too traditional of a role
00:11:09.720so let's take it back to elliot roger and incel culture more broadly uh in the early 20 2010s
00:11:17.440because i think that this is the formerly like niche far-right violently misogynistic culture
00:11:25.380that ends up getting co-opted that the sentiment behind it ends up getting co-opted by the maga
00:11:30.780movement and by Donald Trump himself, and sort of exploited to put these like disgruntled young men
00:11:38.700and sometimes not so young men into these positions where they have guns and they're terrorizing the
00:11:43.420streets as a form of what you say, masculine reclamation. So incels online really takes off
00:11:49.900in the early 2010s. You can see in Google search results that the word incel, it skyrockets in
00:11:57.400popularity around 2010. Incel communities really take shape on places like Reddit and 4chan where
00:12:04.660you have a lot of just like young men and boys kind of just like complaining to one another
00:12:09.620about how they can't get laid. And then it becomes this sort of pathology. Well, why can't we get
00:12:15.160laid? Well, we're genetically predisposed to never have a girlfriend because of the thinness of our0.90
00:12:22.200wrists or the slope of our foreheads. It becomes, you know, very race sciency very quickly. Some of
00:12:28.940the main pillars of incel ideology, and these are courtesy of Zero Tolerance UK, are that men are0.89
00:12:37.860the real victims of gender inequality, that women lie about their own oppression and use feminism
00:12:43.140as a means of dominating men. Some might say cucking them. I hate when I use like, I hate when1.00
00:12:49.820to use like incel words like unironically like it just makes me feel so lame so gross imagine imagine0.92
00:12:56.300a master's thesis where you just write cuck was was the word cuck in your master's thesis yes it0.90
00:13:03.780was yes it was all kinds of horrible words right in there stacy's and chads and all the stacy's0.80
00:13:10.140and chads and becky's yeah yeah yeah in order to prove this assertion that like men are the real
00:13:15.340victims of gender inequality incels will focus a lot on things like false rape allegations which
00:13:21.140we know are extraordinarily rare but they will sort of use them to discredit all allegations
00:13:26.440of gender violence they believe that women are naturally evil that women manipulate men to get
00:13:32.700ahead well caroline as the woman here they believe also and i think this is important that women are
00:13:43.900biologically hardwired to want to be sexualized and dominated by men even if they don't know it
00:13:49.280and therefore any male violence against women is justified because it's secretly it's what they
00:13:56.080really it's what they really want because because 50 shades are great which also was very hot at the
00:14:01.880as things these things pop off i think it's also this convergence of all these different groups so
00:14:06.900in the early 2000s you had uh pickup artists yeah pickup artists were so huge you even had shows on
00:14:12.620like MTV and whatnot. You have men's rights activists, you have the black pillars, the red
00:14:18.260pillars. So these are all, they have their differences, but ultimately are rooted so
00:14:25.380deeply in misogyny and in this belief that men are entitled in this world and what they are
00:14:32.380entitled to is being denied to them. And that there is a long history here. And we talk about
00:14:38.540the crisis of masculinity. I'm like, these men are always in crisis. There's always some crisis
00:14:43.180of masculinity that's happening. It just looks different depending on what era we're in. And in
00:14:48.300the past, there's been a way for them to like address that. Oh, we'll go to war. We'll just
00:14:53.480chop off other men's heads. Oh, we have the notions of now chivalry and kind of in the0.99
00:14:59.100enlightenment era. And then that moving into kind of the Western ideals of men being breadwinners.
00:15:05.160Now men, they go to work, they make money, they come home, they take care of the family,
00:15:10.380they earn that bread. And as these men's, and I keep wanting to say like, it is not just these
00:15:17.380men, it is just the way that they are societally and culturally raised to believe that they are
00:15:23.340supposed to have certain things. They are supposed to be a certain way as men, but as their material
00:15:28.420conditions have deteriorated as these, you know, as capitalism and these other really oppressive
00:15:33.480systems have disenfranchised them. There is this desperation. And that's what's been honed in on
00:15:41.400by a lot of these grifters, these reactionaries, these male supremacists. So it's something that's
00:15:51.300been happening for a while, but like incel culture, it's just an evolution of these previous eras.
00:15:59.760Yeah, I would agree. I know one of the main things you're probably going to get in comments
00:16:03.200or whatever is how this isn't actually incels this is insert thing here that's part of the
00:16:09.520manosphere and and that's somewhat fair if you want to be overly like pedantic about which terms
00:16:15.640apply where but when you're naming like all the different groups she just named they all still
00:16:21.440converge at misogyny patriarchy and this worship of mass of this mythical masculinity that somehow
00:16:28.080existed in the past but doesn't exist now but when you go to the past it also didn't exist then but
00:16:33.760it existed in the past before then there's this great something i got off twitter i can't remember
00:16:38.560vividly but where this guy like literally just went through the history of new like a bunch of
00:16:42.780newspapers like 100 years back and they the headline kept repeating are men okay what happened
00:16:48.700to real men and it's like 1912 and they're still asking that question this is what i mean by this
00:16:55.420crisis of masculinity that we you know we talk about a lot now and obviously it is pertinent
00:17:00.200and relevant but it has been going on for a long time because what it really is is dominance
00:17:06.720frameworks and who gets to participate and who doesn't i think to to modulate what caroline just
00:17:11.880said it is the material like material conditions have made it so there's more outgroup men right
00:17:19.260but the reality is that incels didn't collect together back then because they could just beat
00:17:23.980women and it was okay they could just beat their wives and their children and it was just fine0.97
00:17:29.560there were there were there were so little protections for women and women had to deal1.00
00:17:34.520with it because they couldn't go to college and get jobs their material conditions have
00:17:39.520deteriorated at the same time and this is what makes incel manuscript ideology click for some
00:17:46.580of them is that they look in the past and they see well all these men had good jobs and now
00:17:51.380all these women have good jobs so something must have happened and they don't recognize the fact
00:17:56.180that women weren't allowed to compete with men right and those women still had to live so they
00:18:01.420had to marry a man who maybe had no personality i just saw something and i'll stop please don't
00:18:07.500a tiktok he was like you you look at um the notebook right like that was a real thing the
00:18:13.360woman's dilemma in a movie like the notebook was emblematic of the fact that there's this guy i
00:18:17.760love. And then there's this guy with the money and I love this guy, but I will be poor and I
00:18:25.620have responsibilities and family, et cetera, et cetera. And I don't have the option of going
00:18:29.920to college myself in a career for myself to say that I can choose love. And so for the average
00:18:35.860man seeking out wealth and status or just stability was an easy way to attract the mate.
00:18:41.340You didn't have to read. You didn't have to shower. You didn't have to be a nice guy. You
00:18:45.000you were a provider and now the numbers for you know education and employment have shifted so
00:18:52.460that those guys still feel like they should just be able to have you know girlfriends without
00:18:58.600deodorant and they can't and instead of engaging with the evolution of what the desirability looks
00:19:05.280like in a modern era they just complain it's are you all old enough to remember who stole my cheese
00:19:12.460that old book is like i don't know anybody else's mom in corporate america that just had that book
00:19:17.280lying around no who stole my hold on a sec i'm looking this up right now this book wait who
00:19:24.220moved who moved my cheese yes who moved my cheese okay okay oh apparently this is a big book it's a
00:19:32.900huge book in like the business world in the in the 90s my mom worked for like high up in college
00:19:39.400and education and this is like a book she was given by her hr and it was everywhere for a second
00:19:44.500i don't know if i want this i feel like it's too image or tangent no no this is great keep going
00:19:50.740the point of it is that instead of following the directions of that book which is pivot develop
00:19:56.180evolve from where you are the the lesson of the story is that the the rats that got their cheese
00:20:02.740moved just stayed in the same spot and complained that they want their cheese back and the other
00:20:07.040rant went and figured out where they want to go to get the cheese. So the men in this situation
00:20:11.900are the rats. Yes. Well, they're the bad rats. They're the rats that stayed still. I'm sorry.0.99
00:20:17.500I'm sorry. I just want to say something. I read that pickup artist book unironically when it first
00:20:22.940came out, but I was kind of over it by the time the show happened. But like I went through a bad
00:20:29.180breakup in 2007 2006 and just like a lot of men i was like i don't understand what happened and
00:20:37.520i'm just so angry and i don't know i don't know how to get women in this age and and i read that
00:20:43.540book and it yeah like it kind of immediately was like all right not really but i said it to say i
00:20:51.200understand and empathize with the psychology of feeling like an outgroup male and wanting to
00:20:58.300figure out how to fix that the problem is all those other things caroline was just speaking to
00:21:02.780in this pervasive culture of dominance that has been normalized among men where some men read that
00:21:09.260and was like this sounds weird and gross and then some men read it's like oh i just need to be really
00:21:14.320disrespectful and start negging and that'll work yeah and i just wanted to add to i think the
00:21:19.900element of these men being told that now there's a there's this version of masculinity that has to0.97
00:21:28.280do with how much sex you're having with how how many women you're having sex with and that is kind
00:21:35.040of why they emphasize to like high value women low value women this is how to get and matt i'm
00:21:41.720sure you have this in your outline too well yeah i i would really i would really love and i've never
00:21:46.720said this in my life i would really love to talk about sexual marketplace value
00:21:50.540SMV baby in the incel worldview and uh you know or the red pill worldview or whatever you want
00:22:02.540to call it because of course a lot of these ideas especially as they relate to misogyny
00:22:07.180have gained traction in more mainstream areas of society that we're going to talk about that
00:22:13.880don't necessarily identify with like involuntary celibacy or anything like that this is all
00:22:18.780transcended way beyond how much sex you do or don't have. But so the SMV, the sexual market
00:22:24.600value of someone is essentially, I mean, it's basically like when you see someone and you're
00:22:29.000like, rank them one through 10. And normally we think about that through the lens of looks,
00:22:34.120but sexual market value, according to this red pill theory, it's a combination of your looks,1.00
00:22:40.980your genetics, your social status, your money, your bank account. And the idea that incels put1.00
00:22:48.160forth through charts and math and algorithms is this uh this idea that all women want like a nine
00:22:57.720or a ten male and so anyone any male who is a a one through eight is destined to be without love0.86
00:23:07.600or romance or sex uh and all women are sort of like hypergamous that's what they call hypergamous
00:23:13.940and that they date up but men will date uh you know anyone and it's just because we're so0.83
00:23:20.300virtuous it's that they can have higher standards now because of social progress that women's0.87
00:23:25.480standards that they weren't allowed to have before because they couldn't even have a credit card0.83
00:23:29.600right like at one point they couldn't even go outside without a man being with them right so1.00
00:23:33.980now the issue is women having too high of standards women having choice women being able to provide
00:23:38.960for themselves and this is the problem right and the irony is that it's the opposite now
00:23:44.140the irony is that there's so much research now showing that women are not attracted to
00:23:49.920six foot five seven percent body fat guy it's so funny because it's like women will say these0.68
00:23:56.580things and these men are like no no that's not true they're all liars they just want the zero
00:24:00.880percent body fat the thing that really gets me about this is that people who subscribe hard to
00:24:05.980this theory people like clavicular the the king of the looks maxers who we're going to talk about
00:24:11.080shortly they think that like obsessing over your body and your wealth and your image and your brand
00:24:18.780are things that will attract women but it's like nobody wants a romantic partner that thinks that
00:24:24.640much about themselves yeah and the women that you will attract with that type of behavior are not
00:24:29.640the type of women you're going to want to be in relationships with also so much of this is
00:24:34.420performance for other men yes i would say all of it is yes when you see them at the club together
00:24:40.360there was that moment too when i think clavicular one of them asked nick fuentes like you want to
00:24:45.380spring girls over and they were like oh no and it's it that's the performance aspect and then
00:24:52.080when i see clips of them talking to women and it's so they're so awkward they're so uncomfortable0.87
00:24:58.500because they put so much they put everything into this is how you look this is how you perform
00:25:04.380this is peak masculinity. This is how you get your sexual market value up. This is how
00:25:08.980you own these women. You know, you get whatever you want. And then here's an example of them1.00
00:25:14.700talking to a woman and they can't. So ultimately, I think inceldom was about young men and boys
00:25:20.060blaming women for their loneliness, their insecurities. And it was also a coping mechanism
00:25:25.040for an eroding understanding of what it means to be a man, which distilled masculinity into math
00:28:55.600We want to spread our seed to the four corners of the earth, and women want to put up a much finer screen to pick the smartest, fastest, and strongest seed.
00:29:01.740I always wanted romantic and sexual partners.
00:29:59.180We're talking about what makes somebody attractive.
00:30:01.640And instead of being like a person might crave stability, a person might crave a partner who has certain features, a person might be sexually attracted to an individual.
00:30:11.080They'll say, well, if you want to make give woman money, you know, and it becomes it's weird degrading of the nature of attraction and what people choose partners on.
00:30:22.280And it does relegate women to, you know, Pokemon, essentially, within the game of like men trying to collect, you know, female partners, usually for the respect and admiration of other men.
00:30:35.540So when I hear him say sexual marketplace and mating, it's like, look, can you try to be more normal and maybe you won't gain a specific type of following, you know?
00:30:46.160Yeah. And I think what you're talking about, too, is the issue with kind of the commodification of love.
00:30:51.340It's not a great film, but materialist kind of takes a stab at this of like how people measure up on paper type of thing.
00:30:59.040What's frustrating is, first of all, you know, the physical attraction element is something that that's real that exists.
00:31:07.600But it's this lack of understanding that being a man who is comfortable in their masculinity without any of this performance, you know, somebody who is rooted in the values of empathy that like it's so wild that women will say these things will say, sure, maybe I have my, you know, who I'm physically attracted to.
00:31:35.980But as far as all this other stuff, you know, oh, these impossibly high standards and you have women going, yeah, we just would love, you know, men who are kind, who are caring, who are empathetic, who are not what these other men are making money off of telling other men how they should act.
00:31:55.420Or even just like normal, a bit normal.
00:32:06.280Let's engage with a thing that often doesn't come up around these conversations, which is progressive and liberal women with right-wing men.
00:32:14.260They're still not with the Andrew Tates.0.99
00:32:17.680They're still not with the, you know, the Alpha Chud guys.0.99
00:32:22.240like there are a lot of and this is just a thing that we know from sadly some women have revealed
00:32:27.400it thinking it was funny and other people like oh you're dating a manga person that's interesting
00:32:31.880but like even when you see the manga guy he's still like five foot nine and kind of doughy
00:32:37.240you know i'm saying and he and he sells insurance he's not like a international banker who's six
00:32:45.480foot five and like hunts people on the weekend. So the consistent thing, because the politics
00:32:54.680and the behaviors and the traits can vary widely, right? But the consistent thing that women are1.00
00:33:01.020showing is that looks and money are not as defining as we tend to imply. It's a lot of vibes.1.00
00:33:08.560it's a lot of energy and it's a lot of intangibles that you can't control and if you're hammering0.91
00:33:16.480your face with a with a rock or whatever the the looks maxers do isn't that a thing they do0.96
00:33:21.420bone breaking or something like that yeah that is allegedly one of the more extreme
00:33:25.680uh tactics of the looks maxers should we talk about looks maxers i am so interested because
00:33:31.120this is one thing i haven't delved a lot in so sure welcome to the world of clavicular one of
00:33:36.600the newer trends among young men online uh is looks maxing looks maxing caroline do you want
00:33:47.340to take this yeah looks maxing it's indicative of this age of techno vanity where you can you can
00:33:56.100plump you can in you know inject you can chisel you can break you can essentially if you have
00:34:02.960the money to do it you can change everything about how you look to fit this golden ideal
00:34:09.040so you know carving up your face injecting yourself with meth to maintain the body fat
00:34:16.740percentage like there are all these now it's it's taken self-improvement to a very very extreme
00:34:24.080place and it is essentially this obsession with not being ugly and here's the way that you achieve
00:34:32.780that ideal perfection and so that is what clavicular i mean there was a clip of him
00:34:38.400injecting a girl with it was like botox or filler on stream and legal he is not licensed to do that
00:34:46.900mind you but yes like injecting himself injecting other people yeah so essentially an involving
00:34:52.780movement from something like self-improvement and kind of you know taking just generally taking
00:34:59.420carry yourself to the most hyper extreme place. Well, you know what this is. This is gender
00:35:05.260affirming care for him. No, yeah. I mean, it's gender affirming care for young straight men.
00:35:10.380The face of this we've alluded to is this man who, if you're not familiar, he goes by the nickname
00:35:15.000Clavicular online. He's a 20 year old young straight white dude who has become an influencer
00:35:22.360are sort of in the ranks with the tates with nick fuentes with uh sneeko they were all just together
00:35:30.080at a club in miami where they were singing how was this the how hitler okay how hitler by kanye
00:35:35.160west and then the the miami club released a statement that's like we're so sorry we don't
00:35:38.940know what happened i'm like what uh likely thing to happen in miami uh but it's so interesting to
00:35:45.740me because there's been all this sort of like hand wringing about like the mystery of looks
00:35:49.280maxing and stuff and it's so like it's this is an eating disorder for young straight men
00:35:53.840yeah that's that's what it amounts to guy bulimia you know what other group has long0.74
00:35:59.520struggled with like disordered eating and body image besides women obviously is like gay men0.75
00:36:04.920like and this looks maxing stuff the goal of it is to impress the other men around you0.93
00:36:15.300and to you know attract women and i know anyone who any disgruntled young straight guy might be1.00
00:36:22.260like oh what do you know about masculinity you're a fucking faggot whatever true true but if i can0.99
00:36:27.840tell you one thing that i've learned from dealing with like disordered eating and body image for the1.00
00:36:33.960last 10 years since i was in high school is that it doesn't like it will never benefit your
00:36:40.240relationships it won't benefit your sense of self it's it's it's been harmful for my relationships
00:36:45.460to be very honest you know because you're it's ultimately just time spent fixating on yourself
00:36:51.000and developing like a sickness and i feel badly when i see this stuff because i actually kind of
00:36:56.780like identify with these young men struggling with body image issues and i just wish i could
00:37:00.500tell them like this isn't actually how you achieve happiness in fact it's quite the opposite yeah
00:37:05.140and the saddest thing is that i don't know what other way to say this it's less effective for0.99
00:37:11.240them than it might be for you like they're not like the the body image things within like gay0.92
00:37:16.900communities because gay men are more vapid than straight women no i mean i'm just saying that0.98
00:37:23.200gay men are my my understanding is that gay men still very much behave like men in terms of like1.00
00:37:28.420their expectations on partnerships and and that's true and and the the primacy of looks the best way0.85
00:37:33.840i can put it get into is like gym bro culture which is gym cells is a thing so like guys will
00:37:38.720hit the gym i just saw a picture of this this clavicular guy who clearly has five percent ten0.99
00:37:43.720percent body fat and just a lot of women like you know if you go to a club a girl that's like half1.00
00:37:49.560drunk and feeling on your chest that might get you laid that night it will not get that girl to1.00
00:37:55.360stay with you six months from now when you are you know when you haven't been to the gym in a month
00:38:01.320And you're going through a natural mood swing that men go through, et cetera.
00:38:06.240It's not something that relationships are built on.
00:38:08.280And I think the culture amongst, generally speaking, straight women is that they really don't care about the body image stuff nearly as much as these men point out.
00:38:17.240So it's actually just the irony that that's only for other men and will not get them meaningful relationships.
00:38:26.360This is kind of an overall issue with the aesthetics of perfection, the kind of looking like an actual filter these days. It, first of all, requires thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, which a lot of these followers of Clavicular, whoever else is preaching this, they don't have.
00:38:44.940And it's also like, you have to constantly be doing these things to yourself, injecting
00:38:51.180It's really, really unhealthy and just not sustainable.
00:38:54.740You know, all of this is sad because it's just a new thing that's being promised as
00:39:01.060a way to like instantly change someone's life.
00:39:04.800Like, hey, young dude who is feeling as if they have no purpose in this world, as if
00:39:10.940they can't get girls, as if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:39:12.860And everyone's telling them these different things.
00:39:14.280this kind of content promises them success and fulfillment and also like immediately not a oh
00:39:21.260this is something that you know it takes it takes a long time to work on yourself you know to look
00:39:26.640inward uh etc etc when these things don't materialize that's how these men can become
00:39:33.200even further radicalized so i've unfortunately spent too much time looking at these kind of
00:39:39.440Reddit, internet, misogynistic, incel, radical, you know, very right wing radicalized spaces.
00:39:45.500And this is what happens is like how these men get set on these paths towards really, really
00:39:51.840dangerous extremism is because these things that they are being promised when it doesn't
00:39:57.320materialize, that sets them into like, what's, you know, what's the next thing? What's something
00:40:01.740that's even more dangerous, more extreme? It's how do we get to then this place where men are1.00
00:40:08.920than committing horrible acts of violence, whether they are violent towards women, whether
00:40:14.240they are violent towards queer people, towards immigrants. And it's that belief that to be a man
00:40:21.400means to be violent in this way. That's how you take power and control.
00:40:27.080One interesting thing that I wanted to kind of amplify that Caroline touched on is the aspect
00:40:31.420of community, like these Reddit pages and following those different streamers. The thing
00:40:37.440that people don't imagine because a lot of this is a lot of this stuff is fundamentally white
00:40:42.940supremacist frameworks even the concepts of concepts of beauty are built out of westernized
00:40:48.560white supremacist concepts of who has virtue as a human and who does not and thus you know the
00:40:54.960closer to whiteness you are the more virtue yada yada like there's a lot of that going on but
00:40:59.400despite all of that despite the fact we're talking about nick fuentes he's the only white guy in the0.67
00:41:05.100like the made that major crew and people don't realize just how diverse red pill incel spaces
00:41:11.160are one name that hasn't came up yet is kevin samuels who was the king of the black manosphere
00:41:16.380and people don't realize that the black manosphere was actually here first on the internet on youtube
00:41:21.080etc that speaks to the misogyny of it all but the thing that keeps people that makes them dive deeper0.53
00:41:28.240into the extremism and does and does eventually churn out every once in a while a mass murderer
00:41:33.660is the fact that once you've got this stink on you it's hard to get it off and that you just
00:41:39.880get sucked deeper once you start speaking in incel red pill language and you only learn how to talk
00:41:46.820that talk to like your other peers on your message board or your reddit or your group chat or0.99
00:41:52.900whatever you can't talk to girls you know you're gonna call her foid or whatever the fuck the term0.98
00:41:59.140is. And she's going to be like, what does that mean? I hate that. I know what Freud means.0.97
00:42:05.160And then to bring it back to the ice of it all is that that's also a community there. Those are
00:42:12.060now brothers, you know what I'm saying? And that brotherhood ends up being an extremely powerful
00:42:18.080connective tissue to keep people in that position. And if we want to touch on it all, like, okay,
00:42:24.080So what are the responses? The irony is that what we're doing is really good for like, you know, spreading ideas and and and communicating and like building different repertoires of of debunking, et cetera.
00:42:37.100But the biggest thing really is like managing small pockets of communities to pull one or two out at a time.
00:42:44.800it's almost like decultifying people you can't just tell them the truth they have to go through
00:42:50.840a process the same process that sucked them in has to be undone to get them out well let's talk
00:42:57.040about ice uh which i imagine if you clicked on this podcast you're wondering at this point well
00:43:01.940how does this tie in the washington post reported a few weeks ago that it obtained internal ice
00:43:07.400documents that showed ICE is spending $100 million over the next year for recruitment.
00:43:14.460And who are they targeting? Quote, people who have attended UFC fights,
00:43:20.140listened to patriotic podcasts, or shown an interest in guns and tactical gear.
00:43:26.600They're also targeting ads to people whose phone locations shows them near military bases,
00:43:31.720NASCAR races, college campuses, and gun shows.
00:43:37.400like there's a reason that ice is not investing this recruitment money to advertise near gay bars
00:43:46.120in new in hell's kitchen well i was going to say if it's if it's patriotic podcast then clearly
00:43:51.040it's listeners of this one yeah yeah well i mean hey you never know that's why i don't let spotify0.85
00:43:58.940do programmatic ads on this podcast because you might get a fucking ice ad yeah you know but but0.54
00:44:03.800there's a reason that they are targeting these specific people that, frankly, we've been0.89
00:44:08.720describing throughout this episode so far. They are targeting young men whose brains have been
00:44:13.780rotting online with misogyny slop for years and saying, you know, you think feminism has taken0.98
00:44:19.920male valor away from you? You think immigrants are taking your jobs and impeding on your place1.00
00:44:24.660in the sexual marketplace? And maybe and maybe immigrants are even endangering white women who1.00
00:44:29.700you need to protect right we got to get the rapists and pedophiles off the street but not1.00
00:44:34.820out the white house those ones are okay yes exactly the oh we need to protect white women0.99
00:44:40.760you know they bring up lake and riley all the time i do want to add that it's also the payment
00:44:46.580right so like these are again outgroups outgroup men right who probably don't have any other major
00:44:53.760skills and i think they said it's a fifty thousand dollar signing signing bonus you get after you
00:44:58.960served for like a year or some shit i was seeing some reddit posts though of people who recently
00:45:03.780joined ice and they're like has anyone been paid yet i've been working for four weeks and i haven't0.74
00:45:08.340gotten a paycheck yet like this is kind of concerning scammed by the trump administration
00:45:13.620what shocker but but you're right and and that's part of this too is that this eroding sense of
00:45:23.540financial security. I mean, this eroding middle class and finance is part of returning it back
00:45:30.600to the fucking SMV, the sexual marketplace value. Part of that is how much money you have.0.95
00:45:35.080ICE is offering a reclamation of masculinity. I really like that term that you gave
00:45:39.880in a variety of ways. And so I want to take a look at a few of the ads that ICE has been pushing
00:45:46.860through the Department of Homeland Security social media accounts, because these are
00:45:51.660simply bananas. I'm sure you've seen some of them. Yeah, it's very boys club, very like daddy issues.
00:45:58.540I'm going to send you guys a couple of these ads. Could you describe what we're seeing in this first
00:46:05.020ad? Want to deport illegals with your absolute boys? And it's a van with four empty chairs,
00:46:13.200like just boys being boys, bros hanging out. Think about how many criminal illegal aliens
00:46:18.440you could fit in this bad boy yeah who is this for it's for people who it's like have this like
00:46:26.880cartoon version of what they think men are supposed to be yeah this is like the scooby-doo
00:46:32.080mystery van these and this is a video idea i have like i'm gonna return to this these are0.98
00:46:40.480motherfuckers that should have joined a band you know what i'm saying like rock music is gone like0.98
00:46:46.460I genuinely believe that there was some type of concerted effort to remove white, like rock music from mainstream to allow for the insertion of the alt-right and shit like that.1.00
00:47:05.460So understand back in my day, things like, you know, MTV showed videos, but like literally it was hard to see black music on MTV for a long time because it was hair metal and then alternative and then grunge and then punk and then ska and then all these other things.0.55
00:47:23.860these were cultural entities for white men for white boys straight white boys that were unique
00:47:30.860unto themselves and they were also very anti-establishment they were they were progressive
00:47:37.360for the most part you know i'm saying it was rage against the machines video was about killing in
00:47:42.920the name of and breaking down geopolitics immigration and so like that collective
00:47:48.500of identity, you couldn't go from that to ice. You couldn't. But not long after Bush 2, you see
00:47:56.600the disappearance of all these garage bands and the punks and all these white subcultures that
00:48:03.000were uniquely white male oriented. And you see them replaced with the UFC. With like country.
00:48:09.860And country and hip hop. To be real, like hip hop is very red-pilled, red-pill friendly,
00:48:17.140i'll say in a lot of ways and so when i look at this van i'm thinking like an awesome rock band
00:48:23.160with a heavy metal band in it with like flames on the side and jack black but they're replacing it
00:48:29.260with ice and that's so dark i also look at this fan i'm like oh it's the perfect fan to kidnap
00:48:37.820children you know when you visualize the like rapist kidnapping children van they're like here
00:48:44.000you go yeah that's literally this van you're so right though i mean so much of this and these ads
00:48:48.700really tap into it is understanding young white men's longing for community which is real and
00:48:58.580something everyone should be pining after like we should all want community community is a great0.70
00:49:02.860thing when your community is oriented around kidnapping people from their homes and their
00:49:07.640workplaces that's a problem let's look at ad number two we're taking wow we're taking father0.60
00:49:16.000son bonding to a new level this has to be ai generated no age cap join ice now it's a white
00:49:25.420guy and his dad was balding with sunglasses on his dad looks like the facebook the meme when it's
00:49:32.940like hey liberals listen up liberals my wife left me what my wife left me mean it's also giving like
00:49:42.300if you have daddy issues right here's this is your daddy now so not even literally just like
00:49:48.560oh a father-son bonding activity but a hey this is where you know this is where you can find
00:49:54.920your father the father who stepped up think about how many people look at trump as their dad
00:50:00.600these manuscript figures as their dad. Andrew Tate was a lot of people's dads. Kevin Samuels
00:50:05.260was a whole lot of dudes' dads. The thing that people don't understand about men in crisis in
00:50:11.880a variety of ways is that it's a very cyclical thing around emotional intelligence and a lack
00:50:18.040thereof. Not even emotional intelligence, it's more like emotional deprivation. The thing I always
00:50:24.140point out is that at age three, 90% of the boys in this country will have to start shedding
00:50:31.900their emotional valence. Like you'll be told to stop crying because you're a boy. And that's it.
00:50:40.340There's no like contextualization. There's no explanation. There's no comfort. You are a boy
00:50:46.120and now you're three. So that crying shit is over. And that spills into so many other things1.00
00:50:53.680around touch deprivation. And like when I was a teacher, the thing I realized immediately
00:51:01.100when I started connecting with my male students that one of the main things they wanted was just0.99
00:51:06.180fucking hugs. And I taught in the boondocks with white kids. I taught in the hood. I taught in0.99
00:51:14.180junior colleges. I connected with athletes and the gamut and, you know, kids with fathers,
00:51:19.920kids without fatherless whatever and so many of them more than anything they just wanted
00:51:25.000male affection platonic male affection especially from an older male yeah because you know older
00:51:32.360men are taught that our job is to is to essentially brutalize these young boys so that to be ready for
00:51:38.460the real world and in really in reality we're crippling them you know so like that daddy thing
00:51:44.960is definitely definitely a thing reclaim your relationship with your father through becoming
00:51:51.280ice agents i mean that's really what it's telling you and it's just such a shame because it's like
00:51:56.280you don't need to join ice to mend the relationship with your father just like just like talk
00:52:03.760i don't know like like hug each other like like kiss on the cheek like whatever i don't know
00:52:09.940it's wild or if you're you know tom brady on the mouth or if you're tom brady on the mouth honestly
00:52:16.440i hate tom brady but when people freaked out about him kissing his like small child on the
00:52:22.080mouth at least it's affection you know i don't care i was like this is beautiful like i was
00:52:27.140literally a defender of specifically tom brady's relationship with his son from day one not tom
00:52:32.140brady in basically any other context god bless yeah i've had to start respecting him as a football
00:52:37.000fan after seeing what happened to Bill Belichick
00:52:39.280when he left. I was like, okay, I got to
00:54:24.440He talks about second generation and first generation immigrants.
00:54:28.440The phrase I've heard is that nobody hates an illegal immigrant more than a first generation that just got their, you know, papers or whatever.
00:54:37.660You add in all those other things, all those other factors of economics, all those factors of affirming because we're talking about affirming masculinity a lot, a lot.
00:54:46.160But we're also again, this is very much a white supremacist framework.0.65
00:54:50.240We're getting closer to whiteness through this action.0.94
00:54:53.440We get to be one of the good ones.0.97
01:04:34.140I mean, look, this is a tale as old as time, blaming mothers, separating the good mothers from the bad mothers.
01:04:40.960You know, that's his call to action where he's like, good mothers, you know, we need you out there.
01:04:46.000We need you to curtail the activities, violent activities of these bad mothers.
01:04:51.200It's very interesting because all of these people who are like, oh, these liberal white0.84
01:04:56.660women just like flouncing around in the streets protesting ICE, they all speak as if it's
01:05:03.860like it's like a misuse of the white women's privilege to be doing that, like how privileged1.00
01:05:09.040you must be to be protesting for the rights of people beneath you.
01:05:13.900And I think that's actually what it's about because we know white women are not the only women in the streets protesting. But I think the idea that a financially stable white woman or mother would be spending her time fighting for the rights of what this fascist administration has determined are undesirables, that is like a unique betrayal of what she should be doing as a white woman in a fascist regime.
01:05:43.900Well, it's also because of all the different women demographics, white women, the majority of them do support Trump and other Republicans like they are very consistent Republican voting group.0.53
01:05:56.840They have been for a long time. And so when then there is this show of force from white women who are not supporting Republicans, who are these awfuls out there in the streets protesting, getting involved.0.98
01:06:09.580It's also a, what the fuck are you guys doing?0.99
01:06:12.700Like, that's not, this is not how white women are supposed to be.1.00
01:06:16.420You are violating the white womanhood here by not aligning yourselves with this conservative party.1.00
01:11:01.660I want to talk about solutions for men,
01:11:05.340which is not something that I invest myself in too often.
01:11:09.680But, you know, we all have to get out of this together.
01:11:13.180It really is reaching a fever pitch. And this is like a level of cruelty we're seeing enacted across the country that that just can't fucking continue. And I think, you know, yes, abolish ICE. Yes, abolish all of this. But we also need, I think, from a really deep and like psychological framework need to understand how to not reach this place where people would want to even join something like this, you know, and maybe that's a lofty ideal.0.94
01:11:38.060But I think we understand people who really look at this stuff closely that like fighting immigrant, quote unquote, crime, which ultimately just amounts to like, you know, finding undocumented immigrants who work at Home Depot and kidnapping them from their job.0.77
01:12:50.780Police and ICE agents and ex-military have a higher propensity to beat and kill their wives.
01:12:55.820So what is your messaging to young men right now who feel like what was once a sort of niche, highly misogynistic, extremely bizarre and intense yearning for reclaiming masculinity that is now the whole culture, especially pushed from the government, what's your messaging to them?
01:13:17.900uh i i don't have a lot that i'm as confident in these days because what what i've started to
01:13:28.440actually focus on more are the children think of the children actually i do think community
01:13:34.320community is a big thing seek out self-development apart from these overly traditionalized masculine
01:13:42.380frameworks and find communities uh outside of spaces that are going to reinforce and lead you
01:13:50.100back to these spots and you'd be surprised at how much everything gets better once you're in1.00
01:13:55.480community and connecting with people and how how little feminists in in girls with blue hair piss1.00
01:14:02.540you off all of a sudden when you have like decent friends that aren't also foaming at the mouth1.00
01:14:08.100misogynists. But what I do actually think at least a lot of us should focus on is what essentially
01:14:14.660amounts to the liberation of children. One thing we didn't touch on that I'm going to just drop
01:14:19.760and then leave so that you guys can't have to deal with the mess of it all is that we often forget
01:14:25.820that patriarchy is a non-gendered framework. If patriarchy is policed most heavily and most0.91
01:14:33.600beneficial to men, but like many men, myself included, will tell you that the biggest patriarchs
01:14:39.480in their world were usually women. And even if, even if it's just like other young girls when
01:14:43.940they were growing up, you know, policing and affirming certain masculine norms. And I bring
01:14:48.480that up with the children's liberation thing is that we really do have to reframe how we raise
01:14:55.920little boys. And as a byproduct of that, also little girls. There's a lot of effort being put
01:15:02.720in to reframe girlhood, all for the benefit, all good things. These are all good things that are
01:15:09.360happening and not nearly as much as being done to reframe boyhood. And what we're doing is priming
01:15:17.020these boys to be very amenable to Andrew Tate or a clavicular once they hit puberty. And I'm
01:15:25.900remember there was a video a year or two ago of sneaker running into a bunch of like 11 year olds
01:15:31.320that were fans of his and they're just shouting slurs and degrading women and trans women and
01:15:37.260they don't even really understand what they're doing but they know that this is what's expected
01:15:40.920of them as little boys what no no no no wait we love women we love women we love women not not
01:15:51.340like transgender yes sir we love everybody no no
01:15:55.780what have i done and that didn't start like that's not sneeko's fault that's not sneeko's fault0.92
01:16:09.780that is their parents fault and that is a community and cultural failure for those boys
01:16:14.960And so we need more parents to be educated on what their kids are accessing online. We need more parents to be thinking critically about the tropes and cultural norms that they're reproducing in their home, whether they realize it or not.
01:16:31.700Even I know progressive parents that are surprised at how misogynistic their children can be.
01:16:39.420We reclaim more of Gen Z. I heard we got some of Gen Z back in the last year.
01:16:43.140They were like, whoa, that whole Trump thing seemed cool at the time, but maybe that was a bad idea.
01:16:47.380Yay. We don't let it even get close with Gen Alpha.
01:16:51.120We get Gen Alpha, a bunch of Steven Universe DVDs and whatever stuff we can to kind of coax a lot of that nonsense out of them.
01:17:00.460That is going to be really the bigger fix beyond the things that we know, material conditions and economics and joint labor unions, all the good lefty stuff we know about.
01:17:11.460But the thing that we're often missing is how we're raising the children up to be primed for this type of nonsense.