Bitchy History - You Know You Love Me： A Conversation with Lindsay Denninger

00:00:00.000 something that's you know kind of bitchy bitchy pretty bitchy i know great keep that bitchy energy 1.00

00:00:09.360 well first of all you're a little bitchy that's that's next level bitchy 0.99

00:00:13.500 all right everybody so welcome back to bitchy history i am here with lindsey denninger who 0.98

00:00:20.540 has written a book on gossip girl and we're going to be talking about a little bit about that today

00:00:25.220 I have to admit, Gossip Girl came out during a period of time where I was still in my I'm not like other girls phase.

00:00:32.920 So I didn't really I was like, oh, I'm not going to watch a girly show.

00:00:36.680 I'm not going to do that. So I never really got around to watching it very much.

00:00:40.140 But I have seen a lot about it. There's a lot of clips on TikTok now.

00:00:43.400 So I've kind of gotten some context for it now.

00:00:47.100 So if you want to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about the book.

00:00:50.280 yeah hi I'm Lindsay Denninger um I wrote a book about Gossip Girl because it's the show that I

00:00:58.880 don't know is the most formative and sort of prescient to the world we are in now in terms

00:01:03.060 of social media um also like I really like the show and I watched it from beginning to

00:01:07.820 unfortunately end and I don't mean that as like I was sad it ended it needed to end at that point

00:01:13.220 um I watched every season every episode and you know just fell in love with sort of the vibe and

00:01:18.140 the drama and then you know you grow up and you look at these shows and you say oh oh that's like

00:01:23.240 what it was like then or how could we compare this to now and you know and and stuff like that so I

00:01:28.780 decided to write a whole book about it um I did some interviews I did some uh a lot of digging a

00:01:35.820 lot of like history about the show and uh I look at a lot of like what would we do today how could

00:01:41.640 it survive today that sort of lens I think that's really interesting anybody who listens to the

00:01:46.520 podcast or or reads myself stack knows that i love doing cultural analysis uh it's my first

00:01:51.560 my first uh master's degree was in history but i wrote it on star trek as a cultural artifact uh

00:01:59.160 so yeah i feel i know exactly what you're coming from on that that perspective of like when something

00:02:03.440 is written in such a like a specific time period it becomes like a time capsule where you can

00:02:07.620 kind of unpick what was going on in society from from the things that they were talking about in

00:02:12.580 the show uh so yeah i think gossip girl does seem like it's a really interesting look at especially

00:02:18.840 kind of that early post-feminism uh in a lot of ways because it's coming out in 2007 we kind of

00:02:26.280 reached this period in america especially where it was oh we don't need feminism anymore third

00:02:31.820 wave's kind of petering out and so it is this post-feminism era um so what can you kind of tell

00:02:37.740 me what you what you think about that in the context of of uh of the feminist movement in

00:02:42.460 america yeah i as a a child of the 80s and late 80s early 90s and like coming in my formative

00:02:50.180 years and that sort of time um i could say that we still really did need feminism in 2007 for god's 1.00

00:02:56.560 sakes this is too just like a couple years off of you know uh catherine hilo getting raked over 1.00

00:03:04.080 the coals for complaining about knocked up and Jessica Simpson being fat because she wore 1.00

00:03:09.340 high-waisted jeans and and Britney Spears uh 2007 was when she shaved her head and you know attacked

00:03:17.620 a car with an umbrella because the paparazzi wouldn't leave her alone and you know we have 0.99

00:03:21.460 the context of that situation then but like we were watching these women be absolutely set up 1.00

00:03:28.240 to fail um in so many ways so the fact that and even like if you look at Serena on the show like 0.99

00:03:34.780 she could wear these little Hervé Leger bandage dresses and like she had money and she was young 0.98

00:03:43.360 and free and whatever and then like she was still called a tramp and a slut the entire show when I 1.00

00:03:48.680 talk a little bit about it in the book that like the lore of her being a socialite happened because 0.99

00:03:54.120 she was photographed in like a white t-shirt on a boat like a wet t-shirt contest a few years

00:03:59.020 before in like the south of France and she would have been like 14 when those photos were taken

00:04:03.180 wow so I'm like now and like you know those sort of details like slipped um or it like didn't land

00:04:11.700 when I was watching the show like the first time um but that you're right in saying that that was

00:04:19.060 like this sort of area of like oh we don't need feminism anymore but like really it it was a 0.95

00:04:24.780 period in time in which women were like they're like you're equal you're supposed to sit there

00:04:28.360 and take it now um when really we there was a different conversation that we should have been 0.90

00:04:32.840 having yeah is it that era where we start to see like the boss babe kind of thing like everybody

00:04:37.720 is uh you can do anything if you just put your mind to it without even addressing any of the

00:04:42.620 systemic problems that are that were still there uh it's just you know i think i think many of us

00:04:47.960 were guilty of being like ah yes the this is the best this is great everything's going great and

00:04:52.920 then later on looking back and being like oh oh no this was this was really bad uh one of the

00:04:59.300 things I think is really interesting about Gossip Girl from what I was reading in your book is how

00:05:04.340 it kind of previewed the idea of internet like internet subcultures and internet culture uh

00:05:10.920 because I it's always weird to me when I talk to people who are younger than me like I'm in

00:05:16.440 university again getting another master's and so many of the students are much younger than I am

00:05:21.120 and they just do not understand how different internet culture is now than it was when I was

00:05:27.180 growing up like I didn't have a Facebook until I was like 17 years old um I you know I didn't have

00:05:34.420 a MySpace page I didn't text like none of this stuff was a thing when I was growing up in the

00:05:39.860 early 2000s so Gossip Girl really it was prescient in a lot of ways about that kind of culture

00:05:46.140 uh what do you uh think that it you know predicted or got right about what the culture's like these

00:05:52.320 days i i have a post coming out on monday on my own substack preview i will post i'll restack

00:05:59.260 that for everybody but i it sets up this sort of like panopticon that we have now of like big

00:06:07.320 brothers always watching those kinds of things but it really like set up in a way not that the

00:06:13.880 characters on gossip girl didn't live their lives or like they existed or whatever but they always

00:06:19.620 knew that they were being watched and sometimes they modify their behavior accordingly like i

00:06:23.120 was just reading another article about how gen z like won't dance or go to clubs or whatever i mean

00:06:28.620 i'm 38 so i'm solidly a millennial um and like you know they don't go out because they're so afraid

00:06:34.820 of being perceived and being put on the internet and being made fun of um when we were using the

00:06:41.020 internet and i say we is like we're the same age like i don't know we were just like looking on

00:06:46.520 ebom's world at funny videos and like i wasn't like you know it was like just it wasn't like

00:06:51.620 this we were in chat rooms and like maybe talking to strangers and it wasn't nearly as like nefarious

00:06:57.740 um at least we didn't think it was nearly as nefarious i remember some conversations i had

00:07:02.320 on aol we are about the same age i'm i'm i'm 35 so uh i definitely remember some conversations

00:07:08.980 that in retrospect uh were definitely not okay that should not have been happening when I was

00:07:14.300 like 14 or 15 but yeah definitely little sus I think too the thing about Gossip Girl that's

00:07:19.820 interesting is that those characters being like our proximate age they they do things online and

00:07:27.020 then they also operate in the real world so they have that sort of duality of like this exists in

00:07:32.240 real time in real space and they go and have physical conversations and stuff also because

00:07:36.100 the show would not be interesting if it was only online like it was just them texting but we had

00:07:41.720 very much the same way it was like the family computer the family this like it was one isolated

00:07:46.520 place that you would go on the internet and then leave and go hang out your friends or go do other

00:07:50.720 things that's partly why I think that the reboot didn't work because of like how um people use

00:07:57.280 technology differently now but I think that was one of the things that like from then it was like

00:08:02.320 the internet was just a place and it wasn't always on um so like we were able to visit and then we

00:08:08.860 left and right now like it's all consuming all knowing all everything all the time and i am not

00:08:15.140 surprised now seeing all the talk about especially this new year about that brick thing that like

00:08:21.000 shuts your phone off and like going back to more analog spaces because like gossip girl was the

00:08:26.800 first show that said they're watching and they're always watching in in not like a government spy

00:08:31.120 kind of way and in just a regular everyday kind of way right you're just being observed all the

00:08:35.800 time and it's you know I remember back during the pandemic there was somebody I followed on

00:08:40.080 TikTok who made a post about like when it was getting back to sweater weather and she's like

00:08:44.240 oh it's time for big sweater weather which is great because I don't want to be perceived and

00:08:47.820 I was like that's exactly how I feel in public all the time where it's just like who who might

00:08:52.440 be taking photos or who might be recording and I'm living in the UK right now and bless them 0.99

00:08:57.840 many positives but the cctv culture is quite aggressive here um and so it is it is it's not

00:09:04.460 just like the the public watching but it is like just generally like yeah anybody could be you know

00:09:09.660 at any point something i do out in public could be could be perceived yeah and it's not that's not

00:09:14.300 fun i do like the idea of going back to more analog i know people are talking about like having

00:09:17.940 like an analog bag it's where they keep their you know their uh their hobbies and i'm like that i've

00:09:22.960 had that for ages it's just my crochet bag i was gonna say my crafting room or my crafting

00:09:27.280 like yeah like I'm always carrying it around my my professors thank god they have realized that

00:09:33.060 my ADHD is the type that if I'm doing something with my hands I'm actually listening so I have

00:09:39.060 actually made entire sweaters throughout the semester it's hilarious I'll show up at the end

00:09:43.000 of the semester wearing it they're like oh my god is that what you were working on this whole time

00:09:46.480 but I spend a lot more time with my phone on do not disturb or like on focus mode or things like

00:09:51.660 that the only people like my sister my parents uh you know a couple of you know a couple of a couple

00:09:56.980 of apps that are important like email or something like that are come through but everything else

00:10:01.260 gets gets shunted out because I don't want to be constantly you know inundated with all of that

00:10:07.040 yeah and so yeah thank god I'm not a socialite nobody's nobody's tracking me down to take

00:10:13.180 pictures of me but uh but that that would be horrible but it is essentially what's happening

00:10:18.760 to a lot of us these days yeah so i know that some of the the criticism of the show i kind of 0.99

00:10:25.340 looked up some articles about it was about how like all these girls are just these very out of 0.53

00:10:29.900 touch rich kind of elitist uh figures and i'm i just think that's really really interesting

00:10:36.600 especially for the time period where the show was coming out uh started in 2007 and i very very much

00:10:43.180 remember the uh the housing collapse i lived in arizona at the time so it really you know took

00:10:48.140 out the state um I wonder how much the the show was affected by that and how much people's reaction

00:10:56.080 to the show were affected by that I don't know if you have any thoughts on that yeah I mean the

00:10:59.960 show premiered in 2007 the writer's strike kind of took out its legs for a little bit or like they

00:11:05.140 weren't able to produce new episodes and then that's when people started watching the rerun

00:11:08.020 and then you hit 2008 like you said with the housing crisis um and then that was Occupy Wall

00:11:12.720 street that was people downtown in zuccotti in zuccotti park here in new york and you know

00:11:17.220 living in tents protesting the people who had gotten us to that point um might be getting us

00:11:23.080 there again we'll see who's to say we are nothing exactly okay um i think that it did affect the

00:11:31.220 show um amanda lasher i one of the writers and producers i spoke to her for a little bit and

00:11:37.020 they she said that they were cognizant of that like because it became like glamorizing the rich

00:11:42.040 and going to butter on Tuesday nights and then sort of like this not quite eat the rich I think

00:11:45.720 eat the rich is more 2015 2020 is probably um but there was a definitive thing where it became like

00:11:53.540 they were aware of it but I don't know that it like would change the storyline because I guess

00:11:58.860 if you were looking for a it would become more escapism than anything else like I don't I don't

00:12:03.760 know if any of us were modeling our lives after Chuck Bass or anything like that like it wasn't

00:12:07.740 gonna happen um but they were aware of it in the in the writer's room and you know at the end of

00:12:14.060 the day it is still just fiction and still just a show I don't think they were gonna have like

00:12:17.720 I mean they could have had Vanessa down there protesting and like sleeping in tents downtown

00:12:22.140 but she also yeah she also loved the Upper East Side and spent plenty of time there even though

00:12:27.280 she hated it so yeah I think I think one of the things that I think is very fascinating about it

00:12:31.860 is some of the critiques I saw the show when it was out or things like that where it was like they

00:12:35.640 were talking about like oh poor little rich girl like all these girls are having all these problems

00:12:38.720 but really do they have problems right and I I'm sure that affected somewhat people people watching

00:12:43.900 it and almost having I don't know kind of schadenfreude like oh they're all rich but they're

00:12:48.400 all being you know stalked and having all these problems and so it's not always great to have

00:12:53.040 money kind of situation yeah oh you mentioned you mentioned Chuck Bass so I'm gonna go I will talk

00:12:58.360 a little bit about um early 2000s uh um sexual politics yeah and what was going on in the show

00:13:05.700 for that so i don't know too much about the relationships in the show except for some of

00:13:11.300 the clips i've seen on tiktok yeah and uh yeah there's some choices being made there with those

00:13:16.900 characters yeah there um there were a lot of choices made for sure yeah uh what do you what

00:13:23.500 do you think it really that the show really says about kind of the the sexual politics of the era

00:13:27.960 i mean chuck tries to assault jenny humphrey in like minute 35 of the show like like in the pilot

00:13:37.460 episode he tries to attack her um actually he tries to attack serena too like before that

00:13:43.040 because she he like got a grilled cheese sandwich made for her at his hotel like oh okay like now 1.00

00:13:49.620 you have to sleep with me so it's an indiscriminate douchebag he just goes after yeah exactly anything

00:13:54.460 that moves i mean like he's sleeping with his um his father's employees which we know is like not 0.75

00:14:00.460 a balanced relationship even if it's like verbally consensual it's not because she he can have them

00:14:05.200 fired um so in that way it's like very much like men can and it wasn't the time like men can do

00:14:13.820 what they want they can sleep with who they like even like you know is she too young not really

00:14:19.120 like remember the countdown that they had for the olsen twins before they turned 18 like that was

00:14:23.040 very much in that time of like men and i mean i don't know what's changed but men can still do

00:14:28.240 what they want and sleep around and um assaults aside like even consensual sex men can sleep

00:14:35.240 around and you know do horrible things to women and whatever but as long as they say like i love 0.98

00:14:40.480 you or something then like it makes it all better whereas like serena was slut shame the entire show

00:14:45.140 even though she really only had like two boyfriends three like three serious boyfriends

00:14:49.360 will say there are like flavors of the week here and there but which is not different than like 1.00

00:14:55.020 watching knocked up or watching any of the other media that we consume that like you know women

00:14:59.560 date they don't just it's this is not a situation like you know in our grandparents sir a day where

00:15:04.980 it's like you you meet your love you love your life in high school and you get married and then

00:15:08.520 you stay together your whole life but that's really just because you couldn't get divorced

00:15:11.180 uh but you know those kind of things um yeah and so i know you talk a bit in the book about

00:15:16.740 the romanticization of, of his character. And I kind of want to talk about how that, that plays

00:15:23.440 into, uh, issues that we're seeing today, uh, with, you know, toxic masculinity and, you know,

00:15:30.480 the fact that I know that, um, I have several friends who are teachers who are teaching like

00:15:34.980 the middle school era of, of, of students. And they're noticing that kind of very toxic masculinity

00:15:42.020 that's being very encouraged uh through the algorithm on social media and um do you feel

00:15:48.580 like that kind of has fed in it's kind of been the priming ground for this yeah i think i mean

00:15:55.200 if we want to connect best to the manosphere like i think we can do it we can get there for sure

00:15:59.820 um you know he's one of those as a character he's takes what he wants like non-consensual sex

00:16:09.720 and he abuses blair emotionally and at one point physically throughout the entire show and like

00:16:16.680 the whole thing is pointed in like from the writer's room and then from like if you go now

00:16:21.800 there's like if you go deep in the reddit oh he loves her like they're meant to be together i mean

00:16:27.600 like spoiler alert for anybody who hasn't seen the show that's 20 years old but like they end

00:16:31.040 up together at the end they have a son like everything like he literally sells her for

00:16:36.060 his hotel and then she's supposed to like just be happy with it and just go along with it and

00:16:42.660 then back then like there's an episode where chuck like punches a window and it piece of glass

00:16:49.680 cuts blair he doesn't hit blair but um in the fourth season i think and jonathan saf uh

00:16:57.220 jonathan yeah like the the the eps of the show were like

00:17:01.920 well Blair knows that like Chuck would never hurt her so it's okay that he had such an emotional

00:17:08.760 reaction to like him I don't even like at that point I think it was like losing his hotel or

00:17:14.620 whatever like it's like he's having a bad day so it's justified so he has he was allowed to take

00:17:20.340 it out on her even in physical sense so like the producers of the and writers of the show were like

00:17:24.600 encouraging that and being like well Blair said it was okay that like he had an emotion and

00:17:29.560 couldn't handle himself so like leighton maser was like okay with that and you're like okay um

00:17:35.180 and then like you know you see him he can't process his emotions he can't he's just like

00:17:40.480 big man big money big this um which you see now like in different ways with men like andrew tate

00:17:47.300 and and i that's literally the only one in the ministry i could really name because i see their

00:17:51.500 faces and i go blank because they literally don't matter but i try to i try not to to like i read

00:17:57.200 enough about it but I try not to like personalize them because I don't want to give them that much

00:18:00.760 attention exactly like I might be on a list now because I said the word Andrew Tate but like 0.99

00:18:05.000 you know they again take what they want women like should be always always backing them up no

00:18:12.700 matter what they should be obedient they should be these things like women should just be grateful

00:18:15.940 and a lot of the point I think that they made with Chuck and Blair was that she's like could

00:18:19.380 be grateful that they're together and they're soulmates and like this sort of like emotional

00:18:22.560 manipulation is normal in a relationship and like i think that yeah i think it's really a

00:18:28.640 dangerous thing i mean at least i will say at least in this case they're talking about people

00:18:32.360 were kind of like justifying his anger and being like well okay he had a bad thing happen which is

00:18:37.540 not yeah not a it's you know cool cool motive still murder kind of situation um but but it does

00:18:44.780 feed into that that idea that now we have the manosphere where it's this idea that violence

00:18:49.300 from men are is not just something that can be justified it's to be expected like that's that's

00:18:54.180 just their right as as men to do violence regardless of whether they've had a bad day

00:18:58.880 or they need therapy or whatever whatever justification that they might have been giving

00:19:03.280 in the in the in the early 2000s yeah uh and I think that's definitely a big part of that

00:19:08.140 I'm guilty of it myself like I'm you know I'm very gay but I was talking to a friend of mine

00:19:14.360 the other day about um my current hyper fixation is the pit and we were talking about uh about

00:19:20.720 noah wiley's character yeah and uh i don't like uh my friend nico was like he needs to get therapy

00:19:25.960 and i was i just sent a gif that was i can fix him and i was just like i have and she's like

00:19:31.740 you're like you have tragic taste in men i'm like yeah it's a good thing i'm a lesbian like

00:19:35.340 tragic yeah and i think i think why do i want to fix him i don't know exactly i think dr robbie

00:19:41.700 might even be in therapy and it's still not working so like he needs like an entirely different kind

00:19:46.640 of therapy really on that show he needs um man the man needs to be on cycle that's all i've got

00:19:52.520 to say writers put him in a cycle he can't leave the hospital at the end of the season i swear to

00:19:56.900 god exactly no spoilers here for everybody who hasn't watched it's not up to date on the pit

00:20:00.760 but like wait there's there are signs that we have to keep an eye on therapy um but i kind of like

00:20:06.740 that in that way that we're watching a show that is showing that that kind of thing where

00:20:10.620 the man falling apart and being violent and lashing out at people they're not romanticizing

00:20:15.180 that i mean i might be romanticizing it because i just i have a thing for noah wiley i'm sorry

00:20:19.720 i've been watching a lot of er lately for my phd research so uh it's been it's been an issue

00:20:28.060 the man has aged well that's all i'm saying um but uh yeah it's an issue where you're watching

00:20:35.260 the show and he's it's not being romanticized in that way where it's it's like this is not okay

00:20:40.040 this is a person who is falling apart and he is not doing well and this needs to be addressed

00:20:44.500 and i i like to see that because it's a much better way of handling it and i don't think

00:20:49.220 every show is doing that now but it's a little less prevalent to romanticize it i think in some

00:20:54.740 modern uh some so the shows are coming out more recently where we're talking a little bit more

00:20:59.100 about the importance of therapy and the importance of actually unpacking your issues instead of just

00:21:04.520 you know taking them out on women uh because because you can right 100 yeah and i like we

00:21:10.580 didn't and we didn't have the therapy language in the in the early 2000s for this or like if we did

00:21:15.080 you were seen as like crazy because you went to therapy or whatever so like chuck was allowed to

00:21:21.400 do what he wanted because that was just chuck and now like we have and i mean like that's why i write

00:21:25.820 these like why we kind of examined this because like this stuff doesn't fly like and it's like

00:21:31.320 yeah exactly it's an important to consume media as it was and as it is now and like through

00:21:36.140 through these lenses and like you have shows like shrinking like jason siegel's character like

00:21:40.100 like he was a mess for the first season i mean he's still like in in season i guess this is three

00:21:45.600 now but like you know he's still coping with the death of his wife and like that kind of 0.97

00:21:49.500 like you said like we're talking about how people are fucked up and how they're trying to get 0.99

00:21:55.940 unfucked up, whereas just saying 0.99

00:21:57.760 Chuck is Chuck, and 0.96

00:21:59.540 this is how he treats Blair, and it's fine.

00:22:02.300 And whatever.

00:22:03.420 Same thing with Ted Lasso, another big

00:22:05.640 hyperfixation show of mine, which, same thing,

00:22:08.000 where it's like, yes, therapy doesn't just

00:22:09.860 fix you. You have to keep doing the work.

00:22:11.800 It's a big thing that you have to keep

00:22:13.780 going back to. I complain constantly

00:22:15.720 to my sister, and I'm like, why? What do you mean

00:22:17.680 I have to keep going to therapy? I thought they could

00:22:19.680 just fix me in one session.

00:22:21.580 I don't want to do that. That seems like a lot

00:22:23.840 of work. And my sister's just like, 1.00

00:22:25.940 you know stop it you know but um but it is we're seeing that more much healthier take on therapy

00:22:32.480 and it's true when i was growing up the idea of going to therapy was like oh you tried to kill

00:22:37.020 yourself right you're trying that's why you're going to therapy you've got you're gonna you're

00:22:40.500 going on your little uh you know a psych hold and and you deal with your problems and then you get

00:22:45.480 out and you get back to life um very much the way it was dealt with and and now therapy is i'm just

00:22:52.220 telling someone the other day my therapy is before you crash out that's what you should be doing it

00:22:55.700 like consistently before you have these problems yeah so i'm very happy to see that that's we've

00:23:01.360 gotten off topic but uh yeah but i'm happy to see that that's a thing yeah yeah that we're starting

00:23:06.040 to address that more instead of just taking taking it at face value that characters like this are

00:23:12.360 acceptable in society yeah and like we like in the early 2000s we didn't have these so like we

00:23:18.180 have this toxic masculinity we have this manosphere we have this like right wing pipeline of like this

00:23:24.280 algorithm that is entrapping young men today um and so we have that but we have and like it's

00:23:30.560 it's funny that we're talking about Ted Lasso and um shrinking and then I want to add the new

00:23:35.460 Scrubs um reboot if you haven't seen it yet if you have haven't watched it yet yeah Turk in the

00:23:41.340 first episode is talking about his mental health too as a physician and those three shows are Bill

00:23:46.820 Lawrence shows Bill Lawrence is doing the work when it comes to like that sort of language and

00:23:51.720 therapy and that like he was good in the in the scrubs the first iteration of it too for that kind

00:23:56.480 of thing but like we have men like him who are doing that work to sort of destigmatize mental

00:24:02.280 health and show men who are struggling and who are getting help and then you have this manosphere

00:24:06.820 so like at least there's like options for people to consume things that will help them in 2007

00:24:12.240 like you had chuck bass and like yeah there was no there was nothing there was no concept of

00:24:18.380 uh you know like you said going back to like the britney spears thing right britney spears has a

00:24:22.440 giant crash out for very valid reasons yeah uh going back like once in in hindsight is 2020 like

00:24:29.640 we now know what was going on and all the things that were happening in her life yeah uh but it

00:24:34.380 was seen as she's crazy and not not in a way that's like oh she needs help it was just in a

00:24:40.880 let's point and laugh at her yeah um kind of situation and so yeah like you don't you we

00:24:46.500 didn't have that language at all for that no um so this kind of leads me into talking about also

00:24:51.700 uh just the way that this show and kind of how how we deal with teen girls today i don't think

00:24:58.920 it's changed that much or honestly since the early 2000s yeah uh unfortunately we're still

00:25:04.160 dealing with a lot of the you know the idea that girls that women's television girls television is

00:25:08.680 kind of you know um again i said i i was in the cool girl phase i'm not like other girls i'm not

00:25:14.800 gonna watch this um so i definitely had that period of time um so what do you think is important

00:25:20.960 about shows like gossip girl or shows that are being made for young girls today and how they

00:25:26.380 are uh portraying being a young woman i don't know if that there's any i mean i'm why i it's

00:25:33.440 not like i don't consume a lot of media obviously i'm watching tv all the time i don't know if

00:25:37.280 we've cracked the code on it like i feel like the stuff that gets the most play is like the

00:25:42.480 most controversial stuff obviously like i think that you have like if you have euphoria like i

00:25:46.980 say the gossip girl walks so euphoria could run obviously in like a paid cable like very intense

00:25:53.020 kind of way yeah because that i don't even like i knew i couldn't watch that show i still have

00:25:58.140 stayed away largely from about very young people and it makes me feel i'm like i can't watch a show

00:26:02.340 about high school students and they're like sex exploits i can't do that that's weird i'm way too

00:26:06.620 old for this it's like too grown and and like I think that like if that's the example like that's

00:26:16.680 probably the like salacious example and like I don't know that that one's right I think shows

00:26:20.320 like never have I ever that was the mini Kaling show right um do a much better job with like the

00:26:26.200 struggles of being a teen girl but I still think that like we're still painting girls as tramps

00:26:30.580 and we're still like it I don't know that anybody's really like cracked in people like pen 15 that was

00:26:36.580 more of a comedy like but I don't really know that we're cracking into like exactly what it's

00:26:41.420 like to be a teenage girl in very many ways because I still think that we have like we still

00:26:46.620 look at teenage girls as women not children like you want to talk about the Epstein files like

00:26:56.160 exactly yeah well saying that those are young women not those these are still children if

00:27:01.040 you're under 18 you're still a child so like they're like women on tv and women in the world

00:27:06.280 not allowed to have these sorts of moments where they grow and learn and and whatever else and

00:27:12.540 like it gets like men's exploits or boys exploits or follies and like mistakes and they grow from

00:27:17.680 it and brock turner like doesn't get sentenced to jail and like all these other things and i don't

00:27:23.040 know that like we have perfect examples on tv right now either like i just think like it's a

00:27:28.140 it's an ever-evolving thing and we can push to do better and then with this manuscript thing we get

00:27:32.080 suck back into this sort of like shitty media for women and then we push and we pull and it

00:27:36.080 kind of goes back and forth but i don't know a show 100 right up the top of my head right now 0.99

00:27:40.240 that like is doing a perfect job yeah and i can't i can't honestly think of it either which i think

00:27:45.920 is really interesting because we've been mentioning like shows that are doing the work for men yeah

00:27:50.320 uh and and like showing healthy masculinity and showing that there are you know that getting help

00:27:55.200 isn't a problem and all of those things which is great i'm not discounting any of those they're

00:27:59.920 fantastic shows and i i think they're useful for everybody because it's you know a good lesson on

00:28:05.340 on therapy and doing the work yeah but i do think it's really interesting that we're still seeing

00:28:10.460 the same the same cyclical way of looking at girlhood um that that hasn't really changed

00:28:17.420 this idea that girls are somehow you know they're they're women they're responsible for their actions

00:28:22.700 and they need that you know uh that they don't get to they don't get the the grace of being able

00:28:27.820 to make mistakes or grow as people and I think that's there's something in that I'm not sure

00:28:32.540 what it what it is yet but maybe one day I'll write a paper on it yeah um because I think that's

00:28:37.920 really interesting that we haven't haven't really changed that way in the way that we depict young 0.91

00:28:41.900 women on on tv or even grown women and in a lot of ways so yeah and I men won't consume female media

00:28:48.980 or like female-centered media so that's why it's the same thing as like uh like if you're a person

00:28:55.100 of color and you're watching white shows because there are no like there weren't certain shows for

00:28:59.040 people so you just have to find like what you see what you see on tv and find it in yourself and 1.00

00:29:04.220 like that's what women do with most media because most media is male-centered their male leads their

00:29:09.060 male fist like i see i mean i've never lost a person like jason siegel's character in shrinking

00:29:13.220 but like i see pieces of myself in that and here and there and like we are just used to finding the

00:29:18.600 scraps to make up a whole relatability issue um but men don't watch female media so like

00:29:25.380 it's not going to happen in the way until we can get them to see women as people which you know i

00:29:30.740 know is a big deal but exactly women are people surprise shock um yeah i do i do like it i've

00:29:38.600 been on threads a lot with the with the pit fandom and one person who posted the other day

00:29:42.140 it said something like uh you guys all want complex you keep saying you want complex female

00:29:45.860 characters but you can't even handle dr santos and i'm like yeah we need to talk about that

00:29:50.240 because you do not want self-actualized like people women with complex problems working through

00:29:55.660 them you want perfection from them and you're you're not willing to give them the same amount

00:29:59.740 of like leeway to work through their shit as a as a male character is given so yeah um so i know

00:30:06.500 that the show still has a lot of people in its kind of you know in its grasp it's it was incredibly

00:30:12.500 popular when it was on it's still syndicated it's still popular obviously you've got a book about it

00:30:17.720 right so there's totally interest in it uh why do you think people are still so obsessed with the

00:30:22.500 show uh millennials well from any like just from a bracket range millennials love nostalgia so i feel

00:30:29.880 like you know these shows are comfort shows i watch the oc all the time i watch gilmore girls

00:30:33.740 all the time i watch gossip all the time because it stops me from thinking about the tire fire out

00:30:38.100 there so like that's what I put on I know how it ends it's like I know it's like a nervous system

00:30:43.240 thing um but I like to watch I like to relive it um from what I hear about people who are younger

00:30:49.680 and discovering the show and they weren't even really alive when the show was on um it's fun

00:30:54.460 it's sexy the clothes it's like there's some sort of like yearning for like a simpler time

00:31:00.280 in that that like wasn't really simple as we were talking about like the entire bottom crash job of

00:31:05.260 the economy in that moment um but it seems simple and it seems fun and like soapy and carefree i

00:31:11.120 mean everybody's good to look at like they're all pretty they're all you know exactly like obvious

00:31:16.700 diversity issues um in terms of sexuality and and race and but like that's also poor for the course

00:31:24.480 for most shows at that time which is an entirely different conversation but we can write an entire

00:31:28.480 second book on that I was gonna say like but you know sexy fun cute people clothes drama and

00:31:36.020 everybody loves a soap like the teen the sort of feelings that you have from a teen show are

00:31:40.540 eternal like I still feel out of place and awkward sometimes in my adult life and I don't know who

00:31:45.760 I'm gonna sit with at lunch and whatever so like those sorts of um feelings that I already have

00:31:50.580 never go away these people are just like much better looking and having them and they're more

00:31:54.120 fun to watch yeah and it's kind of it is kind of nice to watch them struggling you're like well 0.54

00:31:59.240 it's fine if i'm struggling because if even blake lively can't you know get her shit together then

00:32:03.700 i guess you know it's fine if i can't right yeah uh like they're they're fabulously wealthy and

00:32:08.640 popular and everything and they're still having problems so it's fine if i'm still haven't figured

00:32:12.460 things out when i'm 35 you know exactly um that kind of situation so i think that that is very

00:32:16.700 true still i do love my nostalgia shows it is very much a nervous system thing i am not enjoying

00:32:22.300 for the first time i'm remembering how stressful it is to watch a show that's coming out week to

00:32:26.240 week and i don't know what's going to happen next and i'm just like having a heart palpitations

00:32:30.000 constantly i go back to watching uh re-watching alias uh constantly because that's been my

00:32:34.960 comfort show which is a weird comfort show to have i admit um let's watch you know let's let's

00:32:40.020 randomly watch bad bad wigs and and spy hijinks um that's that's what i do i mean i watch scandal

00:32:47.200 a lot so like I it's the same thing like it's for sure yeah I get it those are great shows yeah

00:32:52.860 such good writing in these shows too like I just I enjoy the characters it's not even the plot

00:32:58.520 lines necessarily that I always enjoy in the show sometimes it's just like there's like one or two

00:33:02.320 characters and you're like I just love the way that they deal with things yeah and it's so much

00:33:06.600 fun scandals like that for me uh where it's like the plots and I'm not worried about the plots the

00:33:11.360 plots might not make sense all the time but the rest of it yeah you know got some i've got some

00:33:17.480 tragic attraction to characters in the shows too uh yeah so yeah uh so if you want to let people

00:33:24.320 know where to get your book yeah um my book it's called you know you love me how gossip will change

00:33:29.700 pop culture as we know it which is important for everyone to know um it's available wherever books

00:33:34.080 are sold um if you still shop at amazon bookshop uh bookshop.org um barnes and noble basically

00:33:41.820 anywhere a lot of local bookstores are selling it now i'm hearing a lot of um small independents

00:33:46.660 are stocking it so wherever you'd like to get it it's available on ebook audiobook if that's your

00:33:52.140 vibe if you want to listen to it um and yeah it's a fun just a fun deep dive sort of what the show

00:33:58.600 means to people and and what it means to the culture at large yeah and it was really interesting

00:34:03.160 And even for me who had not, like, I don't have the context of having watched the show.

00:34:06.420 I was really interested in it.

00:34:07.600 Now I'm kind of like, okay, when am I going to take the time to actually, like, you know,

00:34:10.940 pull this up and start watching it?

00:34:12.420 Possibly.

00:34:12.940 We'll see.

00:34:14.540 I've got so many things.

00:34:17.520 I have 15 seasons of ER to get through for my PhD.

00:34:20.080 So, yeah, it's a lot.

00:34:22.520 I made very foolish decisions on what my PhD topic was.

00:34:25.360 I know.

00:34:26.100 And that's a 24-episode regular basic 1990s cable season.

00:34:31.420 That's not 10 episodes of Ted Lasso.

00:34:33.000 years exactly i can handle that that's that's fine this is like oh no i'm just gonna have to

00:34:37.920 like pop it up and like run it two times speed and try to get through all the episodes because 0.95

00:34:41.320 it's too much to get through um but it'll be fun regardless all right yes and here at bitch history

00:34:46.960 we do encourage buying from from local uh bookstores if you have the option whatever

00:34:51.680 however you get the book is fine but you know if you have the option to buy it local please do

00:34:56.600 yes and a question that people do ask is does it matter how much royalties i get based on where you

00:35:02.520 buy it it does not a bought book is a bought book so wherever wherever like you just said if you're

00:35:07.120 comfortable and it will be released in the UK uh this summer looking at the date right now it'll

00:35:11.660 be available in the UK as well if um your listeners are there too because that's where you're sitting

00:35:15.720 um where that release is I think next month I have to do the date excellent I will I'll keep

00:35:21.900 in mind and post a link when it go when it when it's up and let people know yeah yeah so before

00:35:27.420 we close off uh I asked you lots and lots of questions is there anything about the book that

00:35:31.560 you want to talk about that you didn't have a chance to say about the about the book or the

00:35:35.220 research or or the process of writing it anything yeah um what well we were just saying it's really

00:35:41.720 hard to watch every episode of a show back to back like that I will say that um no it's a lot

00:35:46.460 of fun to write I think it's really interesting and like you know sometimes people are like oh

00:35:50.500 well you love this show and then you tear it to shreds in certain parts and then you but like

00:35:54.060 I think that's what you can do with things you love and places you love and people you love like

00:35:58.660 you're that sort of like i respected enough to be able to critique it um and that's what some of

00:36:05.060 this is here i had a lot of fun writing it it was fun to talk to some of the cast members

00:36:08.160 and also to put my own spin on like what what i where i think the characters would be now and

00:36:12.180 that kind of thing so if you there's a little bit about the history of tv in there if you want to

00:36:16.740 learn a little bit more about that so um if that's your speed you should definitely pick it up for

00:36:21.900 sure i am going to put some some links up when i post the episode so everybody will be able to

00:36:25.640 to access it easy uh and get that um and of course let me know if there's any like social

00:36:29.760 media if you want me to to link it link up when we're done as well so yeah all right thank you

00:36:34.460 so much for coming to talk to me about this i think it's it's a really fun book uh and i'm not

00:36:39.860 just saying that because i'm also writing a book on pop culture and media uh i'm not just saying

00:36:46.080 that but you know yeah a little self-serving but i love i love writing about pop culture that's

00:36:50.680 just what i do so all these books are fun what am i going to write about something more i mean this

00:36:54.340 serious pop culture it like people don't respect female centered media but also they don't really

00:37:00.180 expect popular media like it's popular for a reason it matters for a reason so let's just talk

00:37:05.460 about it it's the reason that my i'm working on talking about medical dramas for my phd which is

00:37:10.660 because it is what we consume and those things like they shape parts of our brain of how we how

00:37:15.540 we deal with things how we accept things how we believe um in society so i think it's incredibly

00:37:21.060 important so yeah great job love the book and i hope everybody buys a copy of it me too please 0.96

00:37:27.620 thank you please please bye history history history history history what a bitch right 1.00

Bitchy History - April 06, 2026

You Know You Love Me： A Conversation with Lindsay Denninger

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