00:00:00.000I would probably say that boys probably, or boys do actually need, well most people actually do need the social aspect, and without it, it can like harm their mental health, I guess.
00:00:16.340So, and with the schedule that they do now, with like the online schools, it's much more difficult, for me at least.
00:00:26.600My name is Jack, and you are listening to Breaking the Boy Code.
00:00:30.000hi i'm jonathan welcome to the podcast i've known jack since he was probably eight or nine years old
00:00:56.600It's kind of strange to think that at this point,
00:00:58.760it's been more than a year since I saw him in person.
00:01:02.180I'm recording this in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic.
00:01:05.520And since we saw each other, he's gotten two pet cats.
00:02:14.580It took me quite a while to get used to it.
00:02:16.800I'm taking two I'm only taking two classes um this quad there's like four quads two and a half
00:02:23.920months each um first quad I had three classes I had two hours two hours then a two-hour break
00:02:31.300and then another two-hour class this quad I only have two two classes that are two hours each
00:02:36.700so I go in and my first one's history so we just do our class we all have to like wear masks there's
00:02:44.580no like um what's it called those things that go like around the desks those like plexiglass i
00:02:50.780think it's called there's none of those to like take off your masks and stuff so you have to wear
00:02:55.220your mask at all times making it hard to like talk with other people and stuff um and then you have
00:03:02.600like a 15 minute break then your second class which is a exact same i hung on to this audio
00:03:08.280from jack for quite a while just trying to figure out who to reach out to to speak about these
00:03:13.460topics. And ultimately, I reached out to John Harper, who is a past elementary school teacher
00:03:17.740and current assistant principal. He does a lot of training, speaking. He hosts his own podcast,
00:03:22.360My Bad and Teacher's Aid, which are both about supporting educators to make mistakes,
00:03:26.600to overcome challenges, and be their best selves. One of the first things that John and I talked
00:03:31.460about was, okay, we both know logistically what school is looking like this year,
00:03:37.340but what's good about that? And what's not working?
00:03:40.360no that's a good question and i think i think one thing that's working is giving
00:03:48.000the students some independence while at the same time i think that that independence can be
00:03:54.880difficult depending on how you're able to manage your time and budget your time because i'll be
00:03:59.260honest with for someone like me it's very difficult i do not do good do well without structure whereas
00:04:06.420my daughter has done a very good job structuring her time you know making a schedule and you know
00:04:13.060aside from sometimes you know needing me needing some help to get up in the morning she's done a
00:04:17.940great job with that and I think that's got to be the hardest part for kids is not having that same
00:04:24.960structure not having that person right there in front of you it's just it's it's been tough and
00:04:31.960the one thing is nobody's been through this before. And so everyone's going through it for
00:04:37.040the first time. You know, part of my role is talking to teachers and talking to new teachers.
00:04:41.240And the one thing I've told new teachers is that, you know what, no one can really come to you and
00:04:45.400say they're experts at this because we're all going through this for the first time. It's very
00:04:49.960different and they're learning as they're going. Maybe we'll find out that, you know, a couple
00:04:54.640years from now, these students are really skilled at things down the line that they wouldn't have
00:05:00.980otherwise been? I think so. I think we're going to see extremes. I think we're going to see kids
00:05:05.100who flourish. And in all honesty, I think we're going to see kids who have a really hard time
00:05:11.720with it. From what I've seen, it's a bit of a mixed bag. Yes, there are students who are thriving
00:05:18.160right now, though in all honesty, they probably would have been thriving anyway. There are
00:05:22.800students who are stressed, students who are bored, students who like the online aspects,
00:05:28.720but they miss their friends, students who really can't make online learning work for them.
00:05:34.220So there's no way to generalize what's going on. That's kind of what I appreciate about
00:05:39.800Jax sharing his story is that it's a glimpse of beyond what you might read in a news article or
00:05:44.900hear anecdotally from your friends. It's a glimpse of what school is looking like right now,
00:05:50.840beyond the surface level. And he really doesn't hold back.
00:05:54.180it's ridiculous it's like i can't i can't focus for two hours i focus for the first
00:06:01.72045 minutes then kind of like go off into my own world well it's these classes that you're taking
00:06:11.540you're doing the whole class in two and a half months instead of the usual 10 months
00:06:16.560so it goes by four times faster than it's supposed to be so there's no there's no breaks
00:06:21.840or anything it's always work you go into class where everybody's wearing masks so there's like
00:06:28.620you can't really talk with people because you also have to sit like two meters away from everybody
00:06:33.000so there's no social aspect and then you have to sit there for two hours um doing the same thing
00:06:40.720with no breaks and it is really boring I listen to the class but sometimes I'll be like scrolling
00:06:48.980through discord or whatever or like instagram i'm just like talking with people during class
00:06:54.760but i'm still like listening so i guess i'm focused and not focused at the same time but
00:06:59.400that's mostly in the second hour of class the first class i'm focused the first hour of class
00:07:03.480i'm focused and it just gets really boring i don't know how to maybe i'll just tell you so
00:07:11.340rather than phrasing this question like to me it sort of feels like um the school system found
00:07:16.120uh system that works like logistically in terms of like scheduling you know and socially distancing
00:07:23.400that doesn't necessarily work for learning that's like exactly what it is it works
00:07:29.260like the way they format it with like the two and a half month uh quads it works pretty well
00:07:36.040but it's hard to learn it's kind of funny at least uh as i said that i was like that's not
00:07:44.760the way I want to put it. It's as funny as things can be funny in the midst of COVID-19, or maybe
00:07:49.000it's just because Jack's attitude always kind of brings a smile to my face. But there is also
00:07:54.100something kind of tragic about a talented, bright-eyed ninth grader honestly saying
00:07:58.740it's hard to learn right now. I've been doing online facilitation with NextGenMen for almost
00:08:05.840a year, and particularly I've been doing afterschool programs with our Discord server,
00:08:09.820NextGenMen Boys Club. So I've had a bit of a sense of online learning, tutoring, supporting
00:08:14.180things like algebra, which as an aside, there are some things that are really, really hard to teach
00:08:19.220and learn online. And in my opinion, algebra is one of them. So algebra, some English essays,
00:08:24.120French homework. But I really haven't been on the grind that teachers have been on this year.
00:08:28.940And John, on the other hand, has been on the front lines of the school system in the United
00:08:32.560States. And he offered me a really broad overview of what does it mean when we say it's hard to
00:08:39.000learn right now? What does that look like on a school or the level of a school or a school
00:08:43.960district? You know, I was talking to a friend of mine or texting with a friend of mine today. And
00:08:49.400I said, I think the one thing we're seeing is it's very diverse across, not just across the country,
00:08:54.520across the world in that there are some schools and districts where, you know, the expectation
00:09:02.000is really high for teachers and the parents are you know on top of everything and a lot a lot of
00:09:09.060times that might have to do with the fact that the parents aren't having to struggle with their
00:09:13.620day-to-day and then we have schools and districts that you know we're happy just to get the kid
00:09:19.680online and to participate a couple days a week and I mean there's you know there's districts we're
00:09:25.320still trying to find some kids I mean literally we've had kids who haven't checked in all year
00:09:29.720and there's i mean that's going on around the country where there's kids are not logging on at
00:09:33.840all and it's tough because in for a student perspective i mean a lot of times they know that
00:09:41.240we're going to give the kids grace and that happened in the spring and that's been happening
00:09:45.340now but then if you're a kid who's been working hard the whole time you're thinking okay why am
00:09:50.980i really working hard when these kids who aren't even logging on who are barely logging on
00:09:54.900you know, are almost getting the same grade I am, or at least, you know, getting by.
00:09:59.340And I think that's, that's gotta be tough on a kid. I mean, as much as we want to say kids should
00:10:04.480be intrinsically motivated to work hard at school, if we're, you know, if we're being honest as
00:10:08.980educators, I mean, we're, we're paid a salary, you know, we don't go to work for free. And I know
00:10:14.280that's an extreme example, but you know, sometimes I think kids, kids notice a lot more than we give
00:10:19.560them credit for I think no matter what age but whether it's pre-k or you know 12th grade yeah
00:10:26.780that's for real what would you say about disparities that have been exacerbated in the
00:10:30.460current situation I mean I think that's it right there they had they've been exacerbated I mean
00:10:34.900it's it'd be like this imagine right now if we're doing this podcast and then in the room where I'm
00:10:40.540recording there's three other people recording a podcast with three other people on the other end
00:10:44.720that's what's taking place with a lot of our kids who are in rooms that are having to do
00:10:49.220online learning with four, five, six other people. And, you know, I've been to their apartments,
00:10:55.000their houses, and I think, wow, I can't, I mean, I have a hard time myself reading unless it's
00:10:59.980silent and really writing and doing meaningful work, unless it's silent. And I know there's
00:11:05.000kids, you know, all over the world that are having to do work in environments that are,
00:11:10.440you know, very difficult, much different than a class. I mean, classes don't need, I don't mean
00:11:15.420they should be silent but i think the conditions in which kids are having to learn are very
00:11:22.560different across the country we have people that have learning labs they might have everything set
00:11:27.060up they have their desk they have their snacks they have this they have the other and then we
00:11:30.360have kids that are just you know barely getting on or we're just it takes forever just to get them
00:11:35.020wi-fi we have to find them hot spots and you know and no fault of their own
00:11:39.940you know it's tough and i think then things like lack of sleep lack of nutrition lack of security
00:11:49.520that gets you know it's like maslow's hierarchy of needs and then you think okay they don't have
00:11:55.480that why on earth am i going to log on for seven hours and do this and so i think i mean these are
00:12:01.520problems that we had before the pandemic and now like you said they're exacerbated it's really
00:12:06.080it's really difficult but I have seen you know I know there's very diverse situations going on
00:12:11.140and like I said it'd be like trying to conduct three or four different podcast interviews within
00:12:16.300the same room I'd have a hard time focusing I remember in the summer talking with a mom who
00:12:21.800we were talking about the upcoming school year and she said throw it all away and I again it
00:12:27.380was a bit tongue-in-cheek but she was basically saying have some perspective the curriculum
00:12:30.940is not at stake here. So maybe you don't get algebra totally figured out this year. I don't
00:12:36.940know why I'm picking on algebra, but you don't get algebra figured out. That's okay. What matters
00:12:40.340is staying in touch, supporting kids' mental health and well-being in the midst of closures,
00:12:45.340the difficulties associated with social distancing and isolation, making sure,
00:12:49.180for example, they're reading and working on learning goals, but don't burn them out just
00:12:54.040for the sake of checking boxes in the curriculum. And that resonated with me,
00:12:59.840But I've also never been the hugest fan of the curriculum.
00:13:03.000But I think something that's become really apparent this year, and it was always apparent if you were looking, but now maybe more so, that school is about a lot more than math or science or literacy.
00:13:14.240So I asked Jack, sure, learning is hard, but what about the social aspects of school?
00:13:20.800As an athlete, have you had a hockey team this year?
00:13:23.440Or as a young teen who's highly focused on his friends, have you had a group of friends form in your grade nine class?
00:13:29.840Well, my grade eight was, it was like the best grade I've ever had. My teacher was amazing. I was friends with like everybody in the class. So grade eight was definitely better than grade nine, but there was also no virus or anything. So, well, for like the first, I think the quarantine happened in like the last two months of school or something, maybe more.
00:13:48.660but before the quarantine we had um i think it was six periods a day and then we had like
00:13:55.560the trimester or something there was like three different quads or something not quads uh three
00:14:02.200different uh sections um and the periods were in only an hour each and they're the um it was all
00:14:11.080in the same class so it was like much better and much easier to like talk with other people
00:14:15.460be social, make friends. Um, if there, if, um, we weren't wearing masks and we were like closer
00:14:22.680and there was no like virus, it would be much easier to make friends. But when you can't like
00:14:27.080talk with anybody and you're always far from somebody, um, it's really hard. The first day
00:14:33.040of like school that was in August or in September, I think, um, before school started, I was like
00:14:39.700really nervous because I don't know it's not that I don't know anybody but more like I do know lots
00:14:45.960of people I know all these people from somewhere like some of them could have been in my hockey
00:14:50.200league my baseball league whatever it was and I knew like a lot like all the people in my class
00:14:54.720I knew before it even started but there's no they've there are nobody that I've like really
00:14:59.980talked to before um so it's kind of like you know them but you've never talked to them so it's kind
00:15:06.460of weird how do you think you would have approached that if it wasn't a covid situation
00:15:15.120um i would probably just like go up to them and be like hey you remember me from
00:15:19.840blank um and then probably just get along from there the the friends that i have this year i've
00:15:28.160met in like breakout rooms when i'm at home because you're not wearing masks you can talk to them
00:15:32.420no kidding yeah so it's so it's like wearing a mask so okay wait so you're saying that wearing
00:15:40.320a mask is so makes it so hard to connect with people that it's easier to do it over a screen
00:15:45.660um in a small group breakout room yeah very much what do you think it is about the masks
00:15:53.740well you can't it's not even it's not just the masks but like you can um have uh you can like
00:16:03.680when you're talking with somebody like facial expressions and like being able to like read lips
00:16:08.260and stuff it just makes it much easier to talk but when you're like I was at the store the other day
00:16:13.680um at like a subway and I was trying to like talk with the employee and it was really awkward
00:16:17.820because we were like just nodding at each other because I was trying to like talk but they couldn't
00:16:22.140hear. And then they started mouthing stuff and I couldn't see that. So it's just really difficult.
00:16:27.620Masks have been a defining feature of young people's lives throughout the pandemic.
00:16:32.360And it's easy to imagine how this has impacted their ability to communicate effectively in
00:16:36.600social settings. Like I think we've all experienced that in some kind of way,
00:16:40.500the frustration of not being able to connect as fully as we're used to. But I don't know,
00:16:46.200I guess for me, it's helpful to remember what it was like in grade nine.
00:16:51.260And I know we're completely different people.
00:16:53.700Like I am not Jack, but myself in grade nine, like I would have taken any social cues I
00:16:58.440could get in the midst of the nervousness of a new school and the tentative confidence
00:19:12.740That's hard as adults, and it's even harder as kids.
00:19:15.860And it's forced kids to be with themselves and just themselves at an earlier age than most of us had to.
00:19:22.300In other words, most of us did not have to at school age simply be alone as much as kids are alone right now.
00:19:29.860And, you know, like anyone, when we're alone, sometimes we think of happy thoughts, but it's easy for your mind to go to negative thoughts. And so I think finding breakout rooms, finding at least one or two other friends, I think that's the key.
00:19:49.440I know that during school, a lot of times kids have associations with many more people, whereas right now, remotely, it's going to be maybe one or two kids that you're close with.
00:20:04.920And I think that does, in a sense, mimic and prepare kids for adulthood.
00:20:10.640Because sometimes, you know, I'll be talking to my daughter or my son about that, because they might be saying, well, I don't have as many friends or I don't have this or that.
00:20:18.680and I'll try to cheer them up or talk them out of it.
00:20:20.760And I'll say, honey, look, if you think about it,
00:20:22.960I only have a couple of good friends that I even talk to.
00:20:44.320to find out who you want in that circle
00:20:46.420because you don't know much about the person on the other end
00:20:49.660if you haven't spent much time with them in person.
00:20:52.100Like I said before, I kind of want to steer away
00:20:54.380from generalizing young people's experiences with the pandemic,
00:20:57.920really because I've heard a lot of different experiences.
00:21:01.020Like I know a teenager whose friends are hanging out without him
00:21:03.820because they're ignoring social distancing and he's not.
00:21:06.940And I know another guy who's struck up a really meaningful friendship
00:21:10.260with the girl next door because they go for walks together.
00:21:13.240And I know a senior about to graduate from high school
00:21:15.080who's planning on going to college next year and living with the friends that he grew close to in
00:21:19.100the midst of the pandemic. So it's interesting to think about, it is interesting to think about
00:21:26.360those who have gotten closer with their friend group and imagine how that process happens.
00:21:31.100I know with NextGenMen, I know with NextGenMen's online discord community that I've heard from
00:21:36.920boys who have told me, well, they used to play video games, but now mostly they just talk with
00:21:40.900their friends online, because that connection is what matters most. Being alone or even just
00:21:47.980distanced from people is definitely a struggle. And that's why I like the distinction that John
00:21:52.300makes between being alone and finding at least one or two other friends.
00:21:58.520So friendship matters as much as it ever has. And we also know that in many ways it's more
00:22:04.200challenging than it's ever been. For me, there's a question of how are young people working through
00:22:08.460that. And here's what's working with Jack. My school has this Minecraft club, which is like
00:22:15.040the server that I play on a lot. And there's 10 people in like my group and they're all new people
00:22:20.380that I've become good friends with. So it actually like does help being online and being able to like
00:22:26.380just talk to them. There's like a couple, most of them are in grade nine. So they're in my grade,
00:22:32.160but none of them except for one is in any of my classes because there's, I think like what,
00:22:37.320500 grade nines so it's not that common to get in the same class as somebody unless you request it
00:22:44.420um we we um I've met up with most of the people that in my group like at school because we have
00:22:51.240like this 15 minute break but otherwise you you can't really like there's no lunch time where you
00:22:56.820can sit down with people and actually like have conversations there's just small 15 minutes
00:23:01.400I'm not I'm not the best at like just making new friends off the bat like at my old school
00:23:07.620it took me like a year to like get used to the people in my class since it was like a small
00:23:12.020school with the same kids every year so and going into like a school that has almost like 2,000
00:23:18.100people it's kind of hard um and I was didn't want to go to the school I was forced to go I didn't
00:23:25.220have the choice but um so I think that it actually helped me um just meeting people in Minecraft
00:23:32.580talking through the chat and then eventually every time we play now we like voice chat so
00:23:36.500it it actually is pretty good for me not for other people though I feel like having the quarantine
00:23:43.040was a good and a bad at the same time you can't like talk with people and it's harder to learn
00:23:48.360and the schedule's pretty messed up but also the online aspect and making friends there is much
00:23:54.680easier for me because I'm online a lot. This is a really important insight from Jack because it
00:24:01.680allows us to see some of the nuance of friendship development in the midst of online learning.
00:24:06.820Making friends is hard. That kind of goes without saying. And one of the precursors to a friendship
00:24:12.360is knowing that you have some sort of shared interest. One of the most important stages,
00:24:16.440once you start to build that friendship, is kind of finding out whether or not you genuinely like
00:24:20.140spending time together. And through Minecraft, he's found that. It would be like going to a
00:24:27.560music store and stumbling upon a group of guys who all listen to the exact same kind of music you do.
00:24:35.320Except music stores don't really exist anymore, so that's not a good example. It would be like
00:24:38.840going to get your skates sharpened and meeting a group of other guys your age there. So you
00:24:45.740already know you have a shared skill, and then immediately, for example, being able to play
00:24:49.420a game of shiny afterwards there's fun there and there's reciprocity there most of my friendships
00:24:55.340I guess are so old that I don't really maybe that's why I'm struggling with this example I
00:24:58.680don't really remember how they started but newer friendships I can look back on and think yeah like
00:25:04.140we met at the rock climbing gym and because of that I knew that we had a shared interest and
00:25:09.300that I liked spending time with them but as I'm going through this like description of friendship
00:25:17.060like it occurs to me that friendship, it really isn't just as simple as spending time.
00:25:22.980I was just reading a developmental psychology textbook, As You Do, and it said, it was talking
00:25:28.360about children's friendships and it said, symmetrical reciprocity, the idea of giving
00:25:32.280and taking is one of the main expectations of friendships across different ages, as children
00:25:36.820both offer and expect in return loyalty, trustworthiness, sympathy, and self-disclosure.
00:25:43.240so i guess i think about it as depth how deep is that trust that how how um thorough i guess is
00:25:52.720that shared knowledge when i talked about this with john he talked about it in terms of space
00:25:57.580and that's something that can be more limited in the context of a video game it's hard to have a
00:26:04.020meaningful conversation over minecraft or you know madden or nba 2k or whatever you're going to be
00:26:10.580playing or any game you're gonna you're gonna talk there's no pause there's no silence in other
00:26:17.320words it's always in response to some third party thing in other words it's always in response to
00:26:23.680what's going on in minecraft or what's going on in the game it's not in a response to another person
00:26:28.960i think space forces you to really reflect it pushes you to really reflect on what's taking
00:26:38.880place and it forces you to generate something yourself as opposed to respond to something
00:26:44.860and I think about this in a way I've talked to teachers about this when I go to sleep some nights
00:26:52.080as I'm laying in bed if I have my phone or a kindle with me or something and I'm scrolling
00:26:58.000on twitter or youtube or whatever it keeps my brain awake but if I lay there and what I found
00:27:04.400much more effective is if i just lay there with a pencil and a journal there's plenty of space
00:27:09.160there and i what i do is i just write down whatever comes to mind and it doesn't take long
00:27:14.800for me to get tired and you know fall asleep and i feel like there's space there in which you have
00:27:22.420to use your your brain more as opposed to just responding and i think our kids when they just
00:27:27.860simply have to when all they're doing is responding to something not having to generate anything
00:27:32.420themselves. In other words, when they're producers and not consumers, even if it's just a conversation,
00:27:36.940I think it's different than mostly what our kids are going through right now. I mean,
00:27:43.020they're not having to really produce as much. There's no conversation going on. There's no just,
00:27:47.900you know, two people sitting, hanging out. It's all in response to a game or a question that a
00:27:57.440teacher has provided or something like that. But I think those in-between moments are so powerful.
00:28:02.420And I think we don't have those anymore when we're virtual.
00:28:05.860I mean, we have them, but just when we're virtual, we lose them a lot.
00:28:09.120And I think there's a lot to be said for them.
00:28:11.620Yeah, I'm really thinking about that liminal space and when you're driving places or you're falling asleep, out of sleepover, or changing after a practice.
00:28:22.780Like those like in between spaces where you're not programmed and you're not, um, yeah, you're not, um, you're, you're just sort of filling that space with yourself and the person that you're with.
00:28:40.120You know, it's so important to just have that, that space in between.
00:28:43.980I mean, there's a line, I mean, it's, it's tough.
00:28:47.340Cause I mean, that's something that, you know, you and I have never had to, had to deal with and they're having to deal with it right now.
00:28:52.700And it's something as simple as just not having, I mean, we all know how important, you know, just physical contact is, you know, a high five, a handshake, a hug.
00:29:03.400And I mean, we miss that as educators, as being able to give your friend a hug or shake their hand or a high five or just anything like that.
00:29:11.800We're programmed. I mean, humans thrive off of that. The tactile, just, you know, someone touching someone as a friend, as a form of, you know, a way to show companionship or a way to show love, whatever kind of love that might be. And that's missing right now from a lot of people. And that's tough. I mean, because we, you know, as humans, we need that. I mean, we thrive on that.
00:29:33.840I found that really thought-provoking.
00:29:37.120Also, as someone involved in youth programming in a lot of different contexts,
00:29:40.680the idea of how to generate space in relationships.
00:29:43.900Because when a game or a program or a class isn't filling that space,
00:29:49.060but you do want to experience something with that person next to you,
00:29:52.100all of a sudden you're responsible for that space.
00:29:55.740And really you have nothing to put inside it but yourself.
00:30:01.080And that can be really special and meaningful.
00:30:03.840particularly as young people are finding and developing and mirroring themselves with the
00:30:08.060people around them. It's also not to say that it's impossible in video games or online like
00:30:14.000one of the latest things I've seen is young people staying on a discord call or like a phone call
00:30:17.760for example for like 12 hours at a time leveraging technology to just be together.
00:30:24.640I think one of the important things to remember is that young people are capable of making the
00:30:29.880distinction between serious and not serious between fun that's just fun and fun that's
00:30:35.180meaningful and between relationships that pass the time and relationships that sustain them
00:30:40.980so even while jack uses minecraft as a point of connection he's kind of aware that there's
00:30:46.680more to talk about um we talk about like our classes and how they're going and what we're
00:30:52.720learning but not really more into depth into depth about that yeah so do you have a sense of
00:31:01.960if people are feeling the same thing as you or you don't know uh yeah we mostly talk about very
00:31:08.700dumb stuff so we talk about like our game um we talk about how bad our teachers are or good
00:31:16.460um we don't talk about important stuff we just talk about fun stuff i guess0.74
00:31:23.240um in grade eight we my i had like a little friend group it was much like closer than this
00:31:31.700year um and we talked about a bunch of stuff um serious and not serious this year is different
00:31:39.880than last year that's a bit of an oversimplification so i'm sending love to the
00:31:44.840adolescent boys who started at new schools this year or whose friend groups have changed in the
00:31:49.140midst of the pandemic, it has not been easy. John and I started talking about what in particular
00:31:54.740stands out as the defining challenges of the pandemic. The first is the unknown, the uncertainty.
00:32:01.440We saw that back in the spring when school closures, when there was the first wave and
00:32:05.540the uncertainty of what's the summer vacation going to look like. All of that came with a lot
00:32:09.060of uncertainty that continues today. Stress is harder to deal with in a lot of ways when it
00:32:15.120doesn't have a finite end point. But when John started thinking about Jack in particular and
00:32:20.860high school, he kind of got lost in remembering the sensory details of life as a high school
00:32:26.380student, which for me as someone who is continuing to work extensively with high school students and
00:32:31.700right now with middle and high school students online, that really struck a chord. This is the
00:32:36.840way he put it. I think the unknown can be very stressful. I think kids would even rather know
00:32:44.440that they're going to have some days that are just bad if they knew they were going to have
00:32:47.980some really good days too. And if they knew some really good things were coming up. But I think
00:32:52.660the unknown is very tough right now when you don't know what's coming next. It's really stressful.
00:33:00.420And I think one piece of advice I have for adults and for kids is to think of what are the things
00:33:06.300you can control and, and try to focus on them. And it's, you know, you can't control when you're
00:33:13.460going to go back to school in person. You can't control when you're going to be able to be in
00:33:17.400public at a coffee shop or a restaurant or whatever, but you know, you can control what
00:33:24.340you read. You can control what you watch. You can control some of your habits. In other words,
00:33:28.680your exercise, your eating, your sleep. And I think really focusing on what you can control
00:33:37.980and trying to just do the best you can with that is a good thing. I think it's tough though,
00:33:45.320because, you know, this unknown, especially for kids, is difficult, especially like you were
00:33:50.600saying, you know, I think Jack, you said it's ninth grade, right? That's the first year,
00:33:54.640at least here, it's the first year in high school. My daughter's in ninth grade and she hasn't,
00:33:57.680you know, been able to really experience high school the way, you know, you and I probably
00:34:02.420have, whereas ninth grade is your first year in high school. You have, you might have football
00:34:06.740games, hockey games, you have whatever, I mean, pep rallies, you have whatever. And it's just,
00:34:10.300it's totally different. Yes, we probably don't have the same stressors. You probably don't have
00:34:15.120the feeling of not fitting in or walking by a crowd and feeling nervous. But at the same time,
00:34:22.580you don't have those highs where you're walking by someone and you know you get those butterflies
00:34:27.560in your stomach because you think they're attractive or something like that it's a
00:34:31.820whole different thing and so i think your friend that said that there's a ceiling on that i think
00:34:35.480they nailed it right there because you don't have all of don't have all the senses activated kind
00:34:43.860of like what i was talking about earlier with touch in other words you don't we're seeing many
00:34:48.240things that we're not seeing the same things not touching the same things in other words we're not
00:34:52.560giving our friends hugs or high fives or handshakes we're not seeing them we're really
00:34:58.880not hearing them as much and it's just and probably not even tasting a lot of the same foods
00:35:05.100and i didn't think about this until now as i'm talking about it but i think our senses are
00:35:09.320very very different right now and i think that that affects everything
00:35:13.200that didn't hit me until right now but the more i think about it i mean a lot of our senses are
00:35:19.220kind of in limbo especially kids who aren't you know aren't seeing the same thing they're not
00:35:25.060hearing they're not feeling they're not things that were so important when we grew up so many
00:35:31.180tactile things so much you know hanging out at the record shop i am dating myself now you know
00:35:36.940hanging out at you know ice cream shop going to a football game hearing that noise smelling the
00:35:44.060popcorn that was being popped down below during the football game here in the pep rally
00:35:48.880the nerves of walking by someone and the the highs of going by someone that you're attracted to it's
00:35:54.540just i wonder what i wonder what it would sound like if um somebody was to ask about the senses
00:36:03.040of your high school because you've really that was really evocative your description of like the
00:36:07.800smells and the like the feelings and like that was really sensory and i had i could i could do
00:36:14.580the exact same thing, like disguised, like painting the picture of going to the mall
00:36:18.860after school and then going to the movies. Like that was a thing that we did all through high
00:36:23.720school. And yeah, it's totally sensory. So I said, I wonder, yeah, I, that's not a, you know,
00:36:30.600that's not a question that's ever come to mind for me and I've never asked anybody about it, but
00:36:34.820the way you did it right then, I was like, Whoa, that's, yeah, that's an interesting
00:36:40.640sort of little picture yeah it never hit me until i'd never thought about it until just tonight but
00:36:46.340i mean that's you know all the things that yeah i mean like going to the mall and you know you smell
00:36:50.960the the cinnabon place i don't even know if you have if you have cinnabon there in canada but
00:36:55.160you know we have you go by the cinnabon place and you go by the what it's just totally different
00:37:00.240that kids are missing out on and yeah i mean when the senses aren't activated and then besides that
00:37:07.520a lot of them they're they're they're kind of deadened in the sense that a lot of kids rooms
00:37:12.360are probably dark and you know i like i don't turn a lot of lights on when i'm when i first
00:37:17.340wake up in the morning or when i go to bed but i think you know it's probably darker in a lot of
00:37:21.360places right now because kids are going on zoom and a lot of times they're not even turning their
00:37:26.100cameras on and so it could be pitch dark where they are and so so much is just not being activated
00:37:33.060that even biologically, let alone, you know, mentally, a lot of biological functions aren't
00:37:38.800even taking place in the body. I think if we think about how school experiences have been
00:37:43.360different this year, I mean, things have also been really different for teachers. And I know
00:37:47.580a lot of teachers who are basically just trying to keep their heads above water. So that's kind
00:37:51.040of something that's just sort of worth saying as we head into this part of the episode. And I'm
00:37:56.160kind of just, I'd want to spend some time talking about the importance of the role of the teacher
00:37:59.820in the learning relationship of a young person.
00:38:02.420And I feel like I've talked about this a lot by now.
00:44:14.640I'm not trying to delve too deeply into the pandemic black hole, but just to say that, yes, teaching and learning has been hard.
00:44:21.660And if all you're doing right now is managing to tune into an online classroom as often as you're supposed to, that is really, like, that really is good enough.
00:44:29.360So the last thing John and I talked about was what advice would he have?
00:44:32.780beyond teaching or learning effectively online?
00:44:34.800What's the best advice for teachers and educators
00:45:55.900And in some cases, I guess rightly so.
00:45:57.540But a lot of times, it's not that they're worried that if they reach out and ask for help, that someone's going to think less of them. And really, it shows a lot of courage, and it shows a lot of strength to be able to say, you know what, I'm not quite sure how to do this. How did you teach that fraction unit online? How were you able to meet with those small groups so well? How did you manage your time with that? Because I've worked with one group, and it took 30 minutes, and then I couldn't get to the other two.
00:46:23.920But I think being able to show vulnerability is very powerful for teachers, for educators in general. I think that's one definite thing that I would talk about, and I do talk about with educators all the time right now, is just saying, you know what, this is hard, and realizing that it is going to be hard.
00:46:43.060i think again like i said with kids something else is what can you control there's definitely
00:46:53.540things you can control and that's frustrating but what can you control you can control
00:46:57.580your sleep you can control what you eat you can control your exercise there's little things you
00:47:04.700can do there's little routines you can do that can help you feel like you know things are a
00:47:10.100little bit closer to normal than they are and i know they're not not by a long strap but you know
00:47:14.960if you get yourself in some kind of routine and it doesn't have to be massive i think oftentimes
00:47:20.140we see on social media the best examples and the end results of people's hard work in other words
00:47:28.100we'll see the let me see we'll see the finished book or we'll see the album or we'll see the
00:47:36.820athletes or the musicians or the actors or the dancers. What we don't see are all the hours that
00:47:43.280go into that. And so we compare ourselves to that and we think, you know what, there's no way I can
00:47:48.540do that. And we think we have to do that when we don't. Really, all we need to do is just a little
00:47:54.160bit better each day, 1% better each day. And, you know, I always talk about and quote James Clear,
00:48:02.880or not quote him, but I think about so much that I've learned from Atomic Habits. It's one of my
00:48:06.640favorite books, I would say the last couple of years, but it might be one of my favorite books
00:48:10.280ever. And he had a graph in there that was absolutely amazing. He talks about how if you
00:48:15.400get just 1% better each day by the end of the year, you're, I forget what it is, like 200 and
00:48:21.820sometimes better than you were when you started. And he shows the graph and the math and it blows
00:48:27.160me away every time. Whereas if you're 1% worse every day, you pretty much end up at the same
00:48:33.180place, not a whole lot different. I say this a lot. I mean, we're tougher on ourselves than
00:48:38.220we are on anyone else. I mean, we talk to ourselves in ways that we never would talk
00:48:42.800to students or colleagues, and we need to stop it. I mean, we're really hard on ourselves.
00:48:49.400You know, as the old saying goes, which wolf are you going to feed, the good wolf or the
00:48:53.660bad wolf? And if you feed the good wolf, it's just, you know, what kind of person do you