00:18:40.060I feel like I can't get to who I want to be.
00:18:44.220It's a little more than you would put on a get well soon card, to put it lightly.
00:18:52.920So again, building off of previous episodes, this isn't something that boys need to be taught as much as something that boys need to be given the space for.
00:19:03.600To explore that further, I reached out to Phyllis Fagel, a counselor at Sheridan College in Washington, D.C.
00:19:09.380So I am a school counselor at a K-8 school in Washington, D.C.
00:19:15.420where the boys in the middle school were really interested in having a safe space
00:19:21.620where they could talk about things that mattered to them,
00:19:23.980a place where they wouldn't be judged,
00:19:25.960a place where they could make the kind of comments or observations
00:19:29.740about what it means to be a boy that they might not otherwise feel comfortable saying
00:19:34.500out in the real world or even out in the rest of the school community.
00:19:38.760They had the advantage of being in school from a very young age together.
00:19:42.580They were very comfortable confiding in one another, so it really stood out for me that they, too, felt like they needed the safe space to actually express their feelings in a way that reflected them authentically as opposed to what society expected them to feel, say, and share with each other.
00:20:03.160And that extended to friendship, to academics, to athletics.
00:20:09.440They really, over the course of the last year and a half, have talked about every topic you could imagine.
00:20:15.160And I've been impressed by their wisdom and how perceptive they are and also what a keen sense they have of what society's expectations for them are.
00:20:25.620If you ask them a question about what it means to be a boy, there's really almost full agreement on everything.
00:20:31.720There's no hesitation. They'll just jump right in and share what they think they can and can't be, and they feel like they want to push back against that. They feel like they want to not only be able to be whoever they want to be, but also to help younger boys in the school do the same thing. This is something they see as a bigger mission, and part of what they're trying to do is some advocacy work as well.
00:20:56.260we had a student in the second grade who mentioned to me that he was feeling like he was losing his
00:21:06.340confidence and he was pretty upset about it and when I asked him what he meant he said that
00:21:11.680in second grade boys suddenly start to realize that the way to behave the things they say whether
00:21:19.320or not they want to arm wrestle with a friend or whether or not they want to show that they're
00:21:24.600upset about something or that someone something has done is bothering them suddenly they're much
00:21:29.340more self-conscious about sharing those observations about sharing those feelings and what struck me
00:21:35.420as I talked to this second grade boy is that he was reflecting exactly what the boys had been
00:21:39.960saying in boys group down to the fact that they were able to say they started experiencing
00:21:44.540those feelings and not being able to be authentic back in second or third grade
00:21:49.300And I went back to the boys' group, and I said, listen, there's this kid.
00:21:54.000He's in second grade, and he really is saying the same things you are,
00:21:57.920and I'd like to bring him in as a guest speaker to maybe problem-solve with you a little bit
00:25:33.560And one way that girls really figure out what works for them is that they talk about these issues
00:25:38.780and they share with each other what they're doing to relax or to unwind.
00:25:41.680And they talk about their stress and they talk about what's bothering them and they crowdsource.
00:25:46.160And they also have a shoulder to lean on.
00:25:48.980I don't think boys as readily do that with each other.
00:25:51.800And when you have a space where you have a room full of boys talking about what's on their mind, for starters, you're normalizing whatever their stress is.
00:25:59.780And that in and of itself is therapeutic to know that whatever you're going through as an adolescent boy is normal, is something that seven other people in the room are also experiencing.
00:26:09.800And then they can talk together about what they're doing about it and what helps them feel better in addition to just talking to each other.
00:26:15.420and have that same kind of crowdsourcing1.00
00:26:18.500that girls have a bit of an easier time doing with each other.
00:26:22.780Giving boys space to talk together about what they're experiencing
00:26:42.180Well, as cool as it is that Michael built a strategy for his mental health from Netflix
00:26:47.660and a Fitbit app, we can do better than that, right?
00:26:55.400And these groups offer something unique or something special because if you really think
00:27:00.620about it, the people that are watching a kid like Michael expecting him to succeed or the people
00:27:05.340that he thinks want him to succeed, like his teacher, like his parents, those are not really
00:27:09.920the people with whom he's going to be most comfortable sharing about feeling like a failure.
00:27:16.480Lots of people that have high expectations for themselves or that experience high expectations
00:27:21.980from others feel that kind of isolation. So when he's got a chance, like when he's got a space
00:27:26.240where he can talk about those things like they can at Sheridan College, he gets a chance to
00:27:31.460build resilience, to build compassion. He gets a chance for that exploration so he can do
00:27:37.100introspection but do it in connection with other boys that's the kind of experience that will help
00:27:43.740him and help boys like him grow into a more positive masculinity so my goal with boys
00:27:49.940that i work with is the same as my goal for the girls that i work with i want them to have
00:27:55.200confidence i want them to feel like they can be authentic their authentic selves i want them to
00:28:01.500treat themselves with self-compassion i want them to be respectful to others i want them to be
00:28:05.740healthy emotionally. I want them to feel like they can explore their interests and take risks
00:28:11.700and that it's okay to make mistakes. I want them to have solid friendships and to be able to build
00:28:16.920trusting bonds. I want them to be able to resolve conflict. I want them to be resilient. I want them
00:28:22.480to be able to manage uncertainty. I want them to know how to seek help and I want them to know how
00:28:27.000to take care of their bodies and their minds and their emotions and to go into high school really
00:28:34.140with that toolbox of coping strategies and the ability to understand their own needs,
00:28:41.180to have that self-awareness, and also to be really cognizant of other people's needs
00:28:45.480and to be respectful and sensitive to anyone else who's passed the cross
00:28:48.820as they go through adolescence and become adults.
00:28:52.740That was a fun question to ask Phyllis.
00:28:55.920I was like, so what's the possible future for these boys as they move on into high school
00:29:01.080or move on to adolescence and grow up?
00:29:03.780and she was like, boom, self-compassion, boom, solid friendships, boom, resilience, boom,
00:29:08.980awareness of others' needs. There was no hesitation. And there was no script either.
00:29:13.620It was just a really clear vision for her students. So let's say you have a clear vision
00:29:20.100for the boys in your life. You know the direction you want them to go. What's stopping you?
00:29:25.940And also, if you're an educator or you're working in a school, what do you need to know to make
00:29:30.340that kind of space happen? I think that what's confusing to educators about dealing with boys
00:29:35.660this age is that the way they express their discontent, the way they express not feeling
00:29:42.320great about themselves or needing more of a connection with peers or even with the adults
00:29:47.020in their lives often can be off-putting. They might act out, they might call out random things
00:29:52.480in class, they might be disruptive, they might goof off, they might shut down completely. And so
00:29:57.640So sometimes what is a cry for help can look very much like oppositional behavior and can actually make educators want to push them away, but I would argue that those behaviors are an indication that those boys need more involvement and more support than other boys in the same age group.
00:30:17.040In terms of actually getting a group like this off the ground,
00:30:20.640I'm a big believer that it has to be voluntary.
00:30:23.380It has to be something that the boys want to do,
00:30:25.440that they, of their own initiative, would like to be a part of.
00:30:28.560No one should ever be forced to participate in a boys' group.
00:30:32.640In an ideal world, it is something that the boys themselves initiate.
00:30:37.640An educator might have to float the idea.
00:30:39.900It might not be something that they've heard of.
00:30:41.680One way to float the idea might be to share an article about boys' groups
00:30:45.880or to share some research about how boys like friendship too
00:30:49.580and also want loyal, trusting bonds, but to get the conversation started.
00:30:55.580And then once you have a group of boys who want to do it,
00:30:59.500you want to create some ground rules so that there's trust and confidentiality
00:31:03.900because they are seeking the safe space, and it can feel like a real risk,
00:31:09.160especially if they're not accustomed to talking like that with each other
00:31:12.080outside the walls of the space where you're holding the group.
00:31:14.720So you want to create those ground rules about what can and cannot be shared outside a boys group.
00:31:22.020And then you want to come up with topics that are of interest to the boys themselves.
00:31:26.320And that might be not necessarily what an adult would expect them to want to talk about.
00:31:33.360I know that in my experience, boys have wanted to talk about the different thresholds they have for sarcasm
00:31:39.160or whether or not they like roughhousing physically
00:31:42.380or how to handle a situation where they feel like people are putting too much pressure on them
00:31:48.600to be a certain way, and that might have to do with athletics
00:31:51.200or it might have to do with academics.
00:31:53.500Or they might want to talk about the fact that they have a real interest in an area
00:31:58.420that's not considered traditionally masculine
00:32:00.720or that they don't have an interest in an area that is –
00:32:06.260or that they have an interest in or that they're feeling pressure to explore an area that is considered traditionally masculine but isn't necessarily up their alley.
00:32:15.640And often comments that they might not show bother them can actually sit with them and bother them for quite a long time.
00:32:23.240And boys groups are a space where they can share those feelings, talk to other boys, find out that maybe the other boys have had the same reaction.
00:32:32.520And maybe other boys also really love, you know, reading and don't feel like they could talk about the books they love somewhere else.
00:32:40.300But whatever it happens to be, you know, you want to create a space where the things that have been private concerns that they thought they were struggling with alone, they can have an opportunity to see that they're far from alone.
00:37:38.940And that's particularly resistance in a place like Baltimore.
00:37:41.620An interesting connection for me is that a lot of what they do is what's working for Michael.
00:37:48.680Exercise, academic support, meditation, and mindfulness are all part of the Project NUMA program.
00:37:54.740Well, Project NUMA is a holistic program where we choose our young men through the Baltimore City public school system.
00:38:02.160Some of the young men who are having issues with impulse actions and things like that, those who are on the verge of falling off the cliff.
00:38:07.540What we've done is we've infused a group of young men, those young men,
00:38:11.060with another group of young men who are doing exceptionally well
00:38:13.420to try to break up some of their groupthink mentality.
00:38:16.080We combine different arts, martial arts, yoga, physical fitness,
00:38:21.060and an exposure to these young men to bring them a whole new world of endless possibilities.
00:38:26.320My goal is to make sure our young men achieve.
00:38:30.160They get through high school, they get through college,
00:38:31.820and they come back and give back to our community.
00:39:57.760And as I'm walking home in an area called Sinclair Lane,
00:40:01.600I didn't realize I was followed by two men.
00:40:03.700And as I got right beside my door, about to go into my home,
00:40:06.580once I turned around, one of the two men shot me.
00:40:09.580The bullet hit me an inch above the heart, ricocheted, cracked my sternum,
00:40:13.200ricocheted, broke through ribs, and ricocheted and lodged in the nerves under my right arm.
00:40:17.440And for four years, two months, and 18 days, I became a very bitter and angry young man.
00:40:21.960I became the typical young man that people think they see in Baltimore,
00:40:25.620you know, just always angry and just never want to do anything right.
00:40:29.420It wasn't until after my four-year, two-month, and 18-day pity party that I realized I needed to forgive this young man for shooting me because he was holding enough power over me to stop me from graduating and doing great things in life.
00:40:42.100And once I did that, I understood that my calling was to help by any means necessary so another family wouldn't have to go through with my mother, my stepfather, and my sister had to go through wanting to watch their son and their brother bleeding in death in front of them.
00:40:56.860And while at the United Baptist College and Seminary, I partnered with a chaplain named Christopher Wallace,
00:41:02.820a great guy, where I went to the Baltimore City pre-release center and helped him work with a lot of inmates there.
00:41:08.940And during that time, I didn't realize I was working with the young man who had actually shot me back in October of 1992.
00:41:16.560So it is weird that I'm trying my best not to get choked up now because it's really hard for me to still think about it now.
00:41:23.620But once this happened, I had to tell this young man to his face that I've been working with you for all these years, and you shot me.
00:41:31.420And I had to listen to him walk me through the whole process of how he followed me from the number five bus down through St. Colony Elementary School, down Chesterfield Avenue, down Elmore Avenue, until we got to Lindell Avenue in Chesterfield.
00:41:44.320And until he turned around and he shot me.
00:41:46.620And during that time, he just knew me as Minister Cooper,
00:42:42.640that's what it looks like to change culture and just like phyllis fagel one of the most
00:42:49.260important parts of this change is the peer mentoring a sense of caring first shown to the
00:42:57.240boys and then carried by the boys themselves um what we did um last year back in august um we
00:43:05.380met with the principal well the the past principal of cross-country elementary school and middle
00:43:09.940school and over that summer he identified for me 20 young men who were on the on the cusp and verge
00:43:16.160of you know kind of falling off the cliff you know as far as um you know educational standards um
00:43:20.680um always in trouble those kind of things but what i did beyond just grabbing those young men
00:43:25.440also wouldn't diffuse in a group of 10 young men who do exceptionally well to break up some
00:43:30.140that group think mentality so they can also have some peer-to-peer counseling so they can look up
00:43:34.680to one another and say and see that hey look you know even though we're in the school together we
00:43:38.800can all achieve because it's only only so much even I can do that you know when another young
00:43:43.680person speaks it's completely different exactly exactly they'll take it another way you know so
00:43:48.620and that's that's what we do Dave the biggest part is is once you build trust with these young people
00:43:53.280because oftentimes they've heard so many broken had so many broken promises given to them
00:43:57.780but once you allow them to feel safe they begin to trust you and then they begin to open up their
00:44:04.740hearts and they let you know what hurts them oftentimes we talk at kids but we don't listen
00:44:09.020to them so we take an opportunity to listen what these kids are saying some things they say we
00:44:12.900don't like but we know they have to get off their chest in order to start the healing because once
00:44:17.680they start to heal they can begin to grow and then they can begin to replicate that and speak
00:44:21.560to the other friends about healing they can go back and say that hey you know um there's a damien0.98
00:44:26.060there's there's a there's a c4 here there's there's a dave here who's willing to listen to0.99
00:44:30.560us and really imparting to our lives. Because once a young person understands that you have1.00
00:44:36.460that best interest at heart, you got them. And that's, and that's the thing, but we have to
00:44:42.760listen. What we're talking about essentially is effective mentorship. And I'm not going to
00:44:50.060claim to be an expert on that. I'm only 24. But in the experience that I do have, this is critical
00:44:55.940stuff. So I was thinking about it when I started working on this episode, but it was up in the air.
00:45:01.760It was a what if. What if Michael had had a group like the one at Sheridan School? What would that
00:45:07.360have meant for him? But it's not a what if. Because look, we know what it looks like, even in the most
00:45:14.360challenging of environments. Since they started Project NUMA, for example, not one of the
00:45:19.860participants has been suspended. All of their grades have gone up. Their challenging behaviors
00:45:24.960have all changed. They've taken on leadership roles, taken on accountability. Or at Sheridan
00:45:29.080School, where the teenagers, the preteens and teenagers are leading the way and influencing
00:45:33.020the culture of younger boys, giving them spaces to stay true to themselves and keep lines of
00:45:37.380communication open. That's effective mentorship. And it's a shift in culture. It's a shift in
00:45:44.660culture that is carried by educators like Phyllis and men like Damien. But I really think deep down
00:45:51.300it is and it will be carried by boys like Michael, who have reflected on themselves and grown
00:45:57.160themselves and said, this isn't enough. I got to live with more authenticity, more balance,
00:46:02.300more connection. This is something that's growing. And it's something that's on the
00:46:07.020minds of the young boys that I work with. This is their time. This is a generation of resistance.
00:46:15.700My name is Jonathan. I'm deeply committed to facilitating these spaces for boys.
00:46:19.920One of the groups I started working with last week before I'd even finished, one of the boys leaned in and said, can we like make it a rule that if someone says something here, no one goes and tells other people?
00:46:32.660This podcast is supported by NextGenMen, an organization in which these spaces of trust turn into places where boys share stories of mental health and stress, where boys discuss power and privilege and commit to anti-violence.
00:46:43.660You can learn more about NextGenMen at NextGenMen.ca.
00:46:46.860show notes are at breakingtheboycode.com you can contact me at breakingtheboycode
00:46:51.700at gmail.com or at void podcast on social media
00:46:54.660ask your boys about mental health today who they feel they can talk to what
00:46:58.300resources they have start the conversation then keep it going