Bubble Pop with Rachel Gilmore - Why would the Liberals try to out-Poilievre Poilievre？ (with Karina Gould)

00:00:00.000 everyone was a bit of a Monday morning quarterback after the US election result. But one criticism

00:00:05.180 that I at least saw a lot of people levy was that Kamala Harris tried too hard to appeal to

00:00:11.340 Republicans rather than being boldly progressive. And do you have any concerns about your party

00:00:17.980 moving in that direction in the fight against Polyev? Yeah, we're not going to out Polyev

00:00:24.880 Polyev. Like, that's, you know, that's not what we're going to do. And I don't want to, right?

00:00:29.460 Like, I don't want to have his brand of politics.

00:00:33.020 I don't want to, you know, try to say that we're not going to stand up for the things that have been important for us as liberals.

00:00:44.920 I'm Rachel Gilmore, your least favorite person's least favorite journalist.

00:00:48.800 Welcome to Bubble Pop, a weekly show where we break down the biggest headlines so you don't have to doom scroll.

00:00:55.200 Then we'll dig deeper into something juicy that you should know about.

00:00:58.280 In this episode, we've got liberal leadership contender Karina Gould on the show.

00:01:02.520 She's the youngest and most progressive liberal voice in the race,

00:01:05.960 and she's not afraid to stand behind liberal policies that have had, um, branding issues.

00:01:12.340 Will the liberals make the same mistakes the Democrats made down south?

00:01:15.880 I ask her those questions. But first, the news.

00:01:22.080 In this week's roundup, we're talking tariffs, tariffs, tariffs.

00:01:25.280 There's also been a major U.S. Supreme Court decision that is actually slightly reassuring.

00:01:29.900 Trump addressed Congress this week, and the Democrats failed to meet the moment.

00:01:33.440 The world is responding as the U.S. turns on Ukraine.

00:01:36.580 Attacks on trans folks' rights in the U.S. are continuing,

00:01:39.840 and the liberal leadership race will crown its champion on Sunday.

00:01:43.520 Let's dive in.

00:01:46.900 The big story this week is obviously tariffs.

00:01:50.620 You're probably sick of hearing that word.

00:01:52.640 I know I am.

00:01:53.540 But unfortunately, it's a big problem for us all.

00:01:56.180 Not only that, but Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has a warning for Canadians

00:01:59.980 about why Trump is attacking his so-called best buddies here in Canada.

00:02:03.880 Even the excuse that he's giving for these Paris tariffs today of fentanyl is completely bogus,

00:02:12.140 completely unjustified, completely false.

00:02:16.600 So we actually have to fold back on the one thing he has said repeatedly,

00:02:20.800 that what he wants is to see a total collapse of the Canadian economy.

00:02:26.600 Because that'll make it easier to annex us, is the second half of his thought.

00:02:31.140 Now, first of all, that's never going to happen.

00:02:34.120 We will never be the 51st state.

00:02:36.300 Yeah, and in case that didn't drive it home enough,

00:02:38.900 here's the White House press secretary saying something similar.

00:02:42.820 Plans that are moving forward with trying to make Canada the 51st state.

00:02:47.280 I have a follow-up on the economy as well.

00:02:48.560 Sure. Well, the president put that in his true social account or his true social post earlier

00:02:53.600 today. He feels strongly that it would be very beneficial for the Canadian people to be the 51st

00:02:59.040 state of the United States. They wouldn't pay be paying for these tariffs. They'd have much lower

00:03:02.640 taxes if they were part of our great country. So Canadians are understandably not happy and things

00:03:09.440 are escalating fast, which means that by the time you hear the summary, what I'm telling you might

00:03:14.400 be outdated. In fact, the news changed as I was writing this script. Right now, as I'm filming

00:03:19.460 this Thursday evening, the Trump administration granted Canada and Mexico a one-month exemption

00:03:24.660 for tariffs on goods that fall under the CUSMA agreement. So that's fun. I guess this is just

00:03:30.000 a horrifying monthly dance we do now, huh? Trump also agreed to grant an exemption on auto tariffs

00:03:35.300 for one month after he spoke to Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis, with the expectation

00:03:40.380 that the companies will move production to the U.S. as soon as possible. Meanwhile, Canada has been

00:03:45.700 fighting back against the tariffs with provinces pulling booze from red states off of Canadian

00:03:50.360 liquor store shelves. Ford also once again ripped up the Starlink deal with Ontario, which he already

00:03:55.400 very publicly ripped up once and then meekly stitched back together. And the Ontario premier

00:04:00.360 has pledged to slap a 25% tariff on the electricity Ontario ships to 1.5 million U.S. customers come

00:04:07.520 monday canada also levied counter tariffs on 30 billion dollars worth of u.s goods meanwhile

00:04:13.320 ndp leader jagmeet singh wants parliament to come back so they can pass emergency supports for

00:04:17.820 workers although the ndp also promised to bring down the government at the next opportunity and

00:04:22.680 so did the conservatives and the bloc so as for the conservatives at a time when income inequality

00:04:28.260 is terrible and tariffs are expected to hit consumers hard polyev is calling for the funds

00:04:33.440 from counter tariffs to go towards tax cuts. Yes, really. Specifically, he wants the government to

00:04:39.980 cut the carbon tax, the sales tax on new homes, the capital gains tax, and income tax. A lot of

00:04:45.780 that would benefit wealthy Canadians, so that's fun. But hey, at least the events of this week

00:04:51.360 gave us this incredible clip of Polyev's body appearing to physically reject the statement that

00:04:56.660 he's not MAGA, as Trump said. Watch this. It's very funny. The president says that he doesn't

00:05:02.480 like me. He doesn't think that I'm a mega guy. I am not. It is true that I am Canada first. I am

00:05:09.900 only for Canada. I'm fighting for the interests of this people and this country. And if that upsets

00:05:17.260 foreign leaders, including the American president, I'm fine with that because I have one job to do

00:05:21.700 is to fight for this country. Anyways, this whole tariff dance is very stupid, but its impact is 0.99

00:05:27.580 sadly very, very real for all of us. And the justifications Trump keeps giving for imposing 0.99

00:05:32.880 these tariffs are, as Trudeau put it, bogus. Canada makes up just 0.2% of the US border

00:05:39.600 fentanyl seizures Trump is so worried about, and Trump keeps claiming that Canada prohibits US 0.97

00:05:44.860 banks, which is also bullshit. 16 US-based bank subsidiaries and branches currently operate in 0.68

00:05:51.200 Canada. Trump decided to lie about Canada's very democracy this week, too, claiming that Trudeau

00:05:56.460 is using the tariffs to run again for prime minister, which is so stupid on so many levels, 0.98

00:06:03.160 not the least of which being Trudeau has already announced his plans to resign. 0.98

00:06:06.920 And the only time he'll linger is during a transition period, which, to be clear,

00:06:11.920 is a very normal thing. The transition from Harper to Trudeau took about 16 days.

00:06:16.700 Anyways, does your brain hurt yet? Mine does. So let's punish ourselves more by talking about

00:06:21.260 the U.S. Supreme Court. Actually, this is slightly good news because you know how we've

00:06:26.220 been talking about how the Supreme Court decisions on key Trump administration actions will show us

00:06:30.820 just how much damage he'll be able to do to their country? Well, the Supreme Court just narrowly

00:06:35.760 voted to rein in the self-professed king on his effort to stop paying USAID contractors. In a 5-4

00:06:42.380 decision, which is way too close, they found that a federal judge did actually have the authority to

00:06:48.440 force the Trump administration to pay about $2 billion to USAID contractors. And that's for work

00:06:54.120 they had already completed, for the record. Now, this is a pretty narrow ruling, but it does give

00:06:59.700 us a glimmer of hope that maybe, just maybe, the Supreme Court will nut up and stop Trump from

00:07:06.360 totally blowing up the branches of government and asserting unprecedented levels of control

00:07:10.560 over U.S. democracy. We'll see if they keep those nuts up in future more consequential decisions,

00:07:16.440 though. Speaking of nutting up, the Democrats have been absolutely blowing it when it comes

00:07:20.520 to standing up to Trump. One of them, Representative Al Green, actually had the stones to protest

00:07:25.540 Trump's address to Congress on Tuesday, and the House, including 10 Democrats, voted to censure

00:07:31.700 him for it. Meanwhile, as Trump lied consistently throughout the speech, the Democrats decided to

00:07:37.260 undertake a very brave act of protest. They wore pink. Yeah. And some of them also wore black or

00:07:46.480 yellow or blue. Powerful. Really meeting the moment, guys. Meanwhile, another powerful Democrat

00:07:53.340 who has been viewed as a contender for the 2028 presidential election, California Governor Gavin

00:07:57.980 Newsom, just launched a podcast. His first guest, Charlie Kirk, a man who has called trans people

00:08:04.300 a, quote, abomination and a, quote, throbbing middle finger to God. This comes as one week ago,

00:08:10.720 Iowa's governor signed a bill removing gender identity from state civil rights protections.

00:08:15.780 This is the first time a U.S. state has stripped a protected class of people from laws prohibiting

00:08:22.040 discrimination. Meanwhile, on his show, Newsom basically caved to Kirk's hateful transphobic

00:08:26.600 rhetoric because apparently it's more important to do what's popular in manosphere right-wing

00:08:30.880 communities than it is to do what's right. Pathetic. Later in the show, I'm going to ask 1.00

00:08:36.460 liberal leadership contender Karina Gould about the idea of liberals trying to out-right-wing

00:08:41.180 the right-wing. So stay tuned for that. Turning to the international community now,

00:08:45.600 things are getting real spooky. Following the shit show that was the ambush in the White House 0.99

00:08:49.560 against Zelensky, the Trump administration paused military aid to Ukraine, a move Trudeau described 0.97

00:08:55.280 as part of a shift from the U.S. towards, quote, appeasing Putin. In response, European leaders

00:09:01.040 and Canada have been doubling down on backing Ukraine, including offers to contribute troops

00:09:05.740 to a, quote, coalition of the willing peacekeeping force in the event of a ceasefire. But Russia has

00:09:11.000 reacted strongly to the suggestion, stating that the presence of European peacekeepers in Ukraine

00:09:16.080 would signal direct NATO involvement in the war. That's a stance that they've held since before the

00:09:20.960 US threw Zelensky under the bus. Like in late January, Russia responded to musings about

00:09:25.840 peacekeepers with a warning that this would threaten to cause a, quote, uncontrollable

00:09:30.500 escalation. Europe, meanwhile, has come out and said it is responding to these, quote,

00:09:34.480 most momentous and dangerous of times with a, quote, era of rearmament. Oh, and in case your

00:09:40.140 blood pressure wants one final reason to spike, China is really pissed off about the U.S. tariffs

00:09:45.420 and in response took to Twitter to say it's ready to fight, quote, any type of war against the U.S.

00:09:52.300 Specifically, they said, quote, if war is what the U.S. wants, be it a tariff war, a trade war,

00:09:58.180 or any other type of war, we're ready to fight till the end. God, the U.S. really f***ed us 0.93

00:10:03.900 all with their decision to elect Trump, didn't they? Thanks a lot, guys. Speaking of elections,

00:10:08.880 Canada is going to find out who Justin Trudeau's replacement is going to be this weekend.

00:10:13.840 On March 9th, the Liberal Party will tally the votes in its leadership race.

00:10:17.340 So far, it seems like economist Mark Carney is the frontrunner

00:10:20.260 with former Deputy Prime Minister Christian Freeland nipping at his heels.

00:10:24.220 The voting will take place in the form of a ranked ballot,

00:10:26.480 which means that people will rank their picks from first to last.

00:10:29.340 If no one gets over 50% support, then the person with the least votes drops off,

00:10:33.640 and then their votes are redistributed based on the second choice picks on those ballots.

00:10:37.900 So who knows? Maybe Sunday will be more exciting than we think.

00:10:41.080 Probably not.

00:10:42.140 The one thing that really has shifted over the course of this race, though,

00:10:45.020 is that I think a lot of us initially thought the liberals would be choosing a sort of sacrificial lamb

00:10:50.060 to serve up to lose to conservative leader Pierre Polyev in the next election.

00:10:54.160 But now that the polls are really tightening,

00:10:56.500 whoever wins the leadership could have an actual shot at winning the next election.

00:11:01.340 And no, Trump, it's not going to be Trudeau.

00:11:04.200 That's the weekly news roundup.

00:11:05.600 After the break, we've got one of the Liberal leadership hopefuls on the show.

00:11:09.360 Karina Gould thinks that the Liberals shouldn't try to be conservative light.

00:11:12.880 But the question is, does the rest of her party agree?

00:11:16.640 We'll be right back.

00:11:23.000 Karina Gould wasn't a name that many people had on their bingo cards

00:11:26.480 when we started speculating about who was going to be the next Liberal leader.

00:11:29.980 But the 37-year-old, who is almost two decades younger than anyone else in the Liberal leadership race,

00:11:35.600 quickly emerged as the dark horse candidate she stood out in the leadership debates taking firm

00:11:40.880 progressive stances and pressing front runner mark carney on some of his statements and while

00:11:45.760 other candidates have tried to distance themselves from some trudeau government decisions gould

00:11:50.480 hasn't been afraid to stand behind the things she believes worked taken together she might be one of

00:11:55.680 the most interesting voices to emerge in this leadership race so i'm very excited to welcome

00:12:00.960 Karina Gould on the show. Karina, welcome to Bubble Pop. Thanks for having me, Rachel.

00:12:06.940 Now, you've been quite progressive in your stances in this race. You've emphasized the

00:12:11.240 importance of a social safety net and called for universal basic income. Most of the other

00:12:15.700 candidates seem to be trying to sell themselves as more centrist. Why are you choosing this

00:12:21.140 different approach? Well, I'm just being true to who I am. You know, I'm putting forward the

00:12:27.040 ideas that i think are important for our country that i think are important for canadians

00:12:32.000 and you know i am proud of you know many of the things that we've been able to achieve

00:12:38.000 as a liberal government and i also think that what i'm putting forward speaks to liberal members

00:12:43.360 um you know you talk about a universal basic income that is something that has been on the

00:12:48.680 convention floor for the past four conventions and it's passed overwhelmingly each time so

00:12:54.200 I'm not afraid to be a progressive voice. I'm not afraid to stand up for the things that I believe

00:13:00.420 in and to put those ideas out there to Liberals and hopefully to Canadians. Speaking to David

00:13:06.100 Akin in January, some of your colleagues seem to think that Justin Trudeau moved the party too far

00:13:10.900 to the left and that this played a key role in the decline of the Liberals. What did you think

00:13:16.940 when you heard that criticism? Do you agree with that? Well, look, I mean, I think there's mixed

00:13:23.740 feelings about the supply and confidence agreement with the NDP um I think that for many liberals was

00:13:29.860 a tough pill to swallow um but I think more than anything you know what was challenging for our

00:13:37.200 party um was that you know at the moment in time when Canadians were saying that they needed help

00:13:44.080 post-pandemic with the cost of living we weren't really focused on that and I think more than

00:13:49.700 anything it's about were we listening to what canadians were telling us and were they satisfied

00:13:55.540 with the government's response and i think the answer is is no on both of those fronts um so for

00:14:00.820 me um you know it's important to demonstrate to canadians that i'm listening to them and that i'm

00:14:06.420 focused on the issues that matter you know obviously the long shadow of trump has been

00:14:10.580 cast over this leadership race and across the country um entirely but that doesn't mean that

00:14:17.060 cost of living issues have receded from the importance for people i mean that's why i put out

00:14:23.380 policies on you know reducing the gst from five to four percent it's why i put out policies

00:14:29.380 calling for more competition in canada a really bold and ambitious housing plan that will tackle

00:14:34.980 the housing crisis and as you mentioned modernizing our social safety net these are things that matter

00:14:40.180 for us as canadians and you know it's it's been really interesting to watch um how the other

00:14:46.020 candidates have tried to adapt to my messaging and take on some of the issues that I've been

00:14:52.080 putting forward. You know, I've really been leading in the policy ideas space. And that's

00:14:56.940 something I'm really proud of. And, you know, I'm glad to see that I'm changing the conversation

00:15:01.220 in this race in general. Do you feel as though you're pushing your competitors to be a little

00:15:06.560 bit more progressive in some of the stances that they're taking? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know,

00:15:11.740 it's interesting you know I made the comment during the debates but I believe it we're not

00:15:16.880 going to win the next election by being conservative light there's already a conservative

00:15:20.240 party of Canada you know we should be liberals and we should be true to our values and what does

00:15:26.840 being a liberal mean it's a big tent party we have people on the center left we have people on the

00:15:31.540 center right we have people smack dab in the middle but what has always been the reason for

00:15:37.060 me to be a proud Liberal and to be excited to be part of this party, is that we should be able to

00:15:42.320 and we can have those really robust discussions. So, you know, I think it's a good thing to show

00:15:48.140 that there is that diversity within our party. You know, I find it really interesting when you

00:15:51.760 mentioned the conservative light thing, because, you know, I mean, everyone was a bit of a Monday

00:15:56.140 morning quarterback after the US election result. But one criticism that I at least saw a lot of

00:16:02.140 people levy was that Kamala Harris tried too hard to appeal to Republicans rather than being boldly

00:16:08.420 progressive. And do you have any concerns about your party moving in that direction in the fight

00:16:15.600 against Polyev? Yeah, we're not going to out Polyev Polyev. Like, that's, you know, that's not

00:16:22.280 what we're going to do. And I don't want to, right? Like, I don't want to have his brand of politics.

00:16:27.420 I don't want to, you know, try to say that we're not going to stand up for the things that have been important for us as liberals.

00:16:37.300 You know, we've we've always put forward bold ideas that have moved this country forward.

00:16:42.900 You know, we wouldn't have universal health care if it weren't for a liberal government.

00:16:46.420 We wouldn't have the national child care program if it weren't for a liberal government.

00:16:50.520 And we wouldn't have legalized same sex marriage in this country or legalized cannabis if it wasn't for a liberal government.

00:16:56.880 those were all bold ideas at the time that have now become mainstream and accepted so i you know

00:17:04.480 what i don't want to be conservative light that's not who i am and i don't think it's who we are as

00:17:09.980 liberals either and you know like i think to the point about um you know the situation in the u.s

00:17:19.120 was was different but there are lessons that we can learn from it but i think the thing is is like

00:17:24.360 you don't necessarily win elections by playing it safe you win elections by inspiring people by

00:17:31.100 sharing your vision for Canada and giving them reason to be hopeful and to be optimistic and

00:17:38.520 Pierre Polyev is selling his own kind of weird dark version of of hope in a way um but you know

00:17:45.060 I think what brought us into power into 2015 and I think what would keep a new version of a liberal

00:17:51.900 government in office is you know harnessing that hope for people and giving something giving people

00:17:58.160 something to feel hopeful about um this is a weird scary tough time that we are living in

00:18:04.140 but i think that there is reason to be hopeful and there is reason to be optimistic but that's

00:18:10.280 that's got to be our brand that's got to be who we are and it's got to be what motivates people to

00:18:14.340 come out and vote for us one notable trudeau era policy that you have stood behind that sets you

00:18:20.400 apart from some of your competitors is on the price on carbon. You're saying that the party

00:18:25.860 should sort of salvage it. Can you tell me a bit more about that position? Yeah, look, I'm not

00:18:30.980 going to just bow down to what Pierre Polyev says that we should do. I mean, I'm going to stand

00:18:36.160 behind a policy that works. Look, Pierre Polyev has erroneously and incorrectly misled Canadians

00:18:46.940 to say that the reason why things cost more is because of the price on pollution.

00:18:51.780 We know that's factually incorrect.

00:18:54.220 The reason why things cost more is because of inflation.

00:18:58.100 And so if we're going to tackle the root cause of what people are upset about

00:19:02.620 when they're talking about the carbon tax,

00:19:04.540 it's not that they're saying that they don't care about fighting climate change.

00:19:07.900 It's not that they're saying that they don't care about protecting the environment.

00:19:10.840 What they're saying is things are really unaffordable and we need help.

00:19:14.320 and the fact of the matter is is that removing the consumer price on pollution is not going to

00:19:19.720 make things cheaper right we know that the parliamentary budget officer has come out and

00:19:23.520 said that but what we do know is that people are struggling to make ends meet so let's put forward

00:19:28.800 policies they're going to help them reducing the gst by one percent that'll make a big difference

00:19:33.960 particularly for low and no income canadians who spend more of their income on the gst than

00:19:40.440 wealthier Canadians. Taking away the carbon rebate, you know, that could be $1,200 a year

00:19:46.480 for a family of four, not going to make things more affordable for Canadians. Let's tackle the

00:19:51.740 housing crisis. Let's build more homes. Let's make sure that we're working towards eliminating

00:19:56.880 homelessness and getting first-time homebuyers into the market. What people are saying to us

00:20:01.940 is they're struggling to make ends meet. So let's actually put forward policies that are going to

00:20:06.980 help them reduce their costs and make life more affordable it definitely stood out to me that

00:20:12.780 polyev's attacks on the carbon tax were so effective i mean a price on carbon is if anything

00:20:18.780 a conservative market-based solution to climate change so i i'm kind of curious like do you have

00:20:25.460 concerns about how dishonest rhetoric like that and decisions to cave to dishonest rhetoric which

00:20:31.040 arguably is what we're seeing in the response to sort of leave the price on carbon by the roadside

00:20:39.540 by some of your competitors here. Do you have concerns about how caving to dishonest rhetoric

00:20:45.020 can shape our politics? Yeah, well, I think, I mean, it leads to policy that's not effective.

00:20:51.740 And ultimately, you know, our job as government is to govern effectively. And, you know, it's a

00:20:57.960 policy that both reduces emissions. So it's responsible for 10 to 15% of our emissions

00:21:03.880 reduction. But, you know, Polyev has made it so toxic and he's made it a catch-all for everything

00:21:10.420 that I can understand why, you know, my colleagues in this race would like to move away from it

00:21:16.480 to try and open up a different space to have a conversation. So I understand why they're doing

00:21:22.120 it i just feel personally um that it's important to stand by your convictions and it's important

00:21:28.600 to have an honest conversation with canadians about it and you know what as a government we

00:21:33.480 missed the moment um we you know didn't take it seriously we thought we had won three elections

00:21:39.160 on the price on pollution um you know we had won three elections but i would argue on very

00:21:43.880 different things um you know it wasn't that wasn't the top issue for canadians um and even you know

00:21:50.280 in 2021 the conservatives ran on kind of a wonky version of the price on pollution i mean aaron

00:21:56.040 o'toole had this like weird like green savings account where you could use money to buy green

00:22:01.560 like you know more environmentally friendly things so it was like i don't know the conservatives

00:22:07.000 always put forward ideas that you know they say they don't want big government and then they have

00:22:10.840 like even more control um than you know what the free market asks for um but you know pierre

00:22:17.480 Karepolyev is a smart politician. I don't like what he stands for and I don't like the way that

00:22:21.400 he does it, but he is an effective politician. And so we need somebody who can go head to head

00:22:27.600 and be an effective politician, but on the progressive side to go against him.

00:22:32.240 One thing I've wondered about, speaking of running on certain promises is when Trudeau

00:22:38.800 announced his plans to resign, he said his biggest regret was not achieving electoral reform in the

00:22:44.080 form of a ranked ballot. I think the specification there annoyed some people since not only were they

00:22:50.700 angry that Trudeau hadn't achieved electoral reform, but they felt his focus on a ranked

00:22:54.620 ballot outcome was part of the reason that it didn't work out. You served as minister for

00:23:00.520 democratic institutions and were the one to announce that the government had to abandon or

00:23:04.840 was abandoning that promise. Do you have any regrets about how that played out?

00:23:09.700 Well, look, I came in at the tail end of that process, but what I will say is that we were pretty naive, I think, in 2015 about how we approached that promise and thinking that we could put together a parliamentary committee that would somehow come to an agreement and put partisanship aside and do what was best for the country.

00:23:34.060 on one of the most political issues there is,

00:23:37.320 choosing how MPs are elected,

00:23:40.420 how our representatives are elected,

00:23:42.640 was maybe too naive at the time

00:23:46.100 because what ended up happening on that committee

00:23:48.460 is that every political party put forward

00:23:52.000 their preferred method and none of them agreed on it.

00:23:55.360 And the only two things that they agreed on

00:23:57.920 on that committee was that there would be

00:23:59.220 no mandatory voting and no electronic voting.

00:24:01.440 otherwise they disagreed on everything else so I think that it just wasn't the

00:24:07.320 right approach to do it and you know it's it's very hard to to do this and

00:24:13.980 it's also something that you know if if I were to do it differently I think I

00:24:19.860 would do a citizens assembly and then put the outcome of the citizens assembly

00:24:26.100 to a referendum I don't think you can change how we govern ourselves how we

00:24:30.900 choose our representatives without bringing it to the people more broadly and I think what I learned

00:24:38.740 through that process and you know my colleague Miriam Monsef experienced it on a daily basis

00:24:43.780 when she was in the role before me is that if you don't have a referendum you will not have the

00:24:50.020 legitimacy to change that system. The Conservatives asked her 20 questions a day on whether or not

00:24:56.980 they would help we would hold a referendum and so i think it's the only way that if we are going to

00:25:02.100 do it that we could do it do you think trudeau shouldn't have made that promise about it being

00:25:07.940 the last election he made the promise because he believed that it would be possible um and you know

00:25:14.660 in a democracy not everything is possible that's democracy um you know it's it's always interesting

00:25:20.980 to me when people um you know talk about and i get that they're disappointed because they care

00:25:25.940 about it and that's fine and that's good and that's the issue that they're pushing and that's

00:25:30.580 democracy but it's you still have to govern and you still have to get things through the house

00:25:35.860 of commons and even when you have a majority government and this is a good thing you still

00:25:40.740 shouldn't be able to do everything right and I'm not saying specifically on this case but just in

00:25:46.020 general that that is a democracy you have to get through parliament you have to sell things to

00:25:51.780 your country to your citizens and so you know you might have the best of intentions but maybe the

00:25:57.540 way that you did it it didn't work out and it's not because you didn't want to achieve it it's

00:26:01.540 because you know if you can't sell it to you know the broader public or to parliament beyond you

00:26:08.580 know your party even in a majority government sometimes it just makes it politically untenable

00:26:12.900 so for me that experience taught me a lot about how to get things done in politics and in

00:26:20.980 parliament um and i think that was a particularly um valuable lesson for me so that actually segues

00:26:27.140 really well um speaking of i guess lessons learned about doing politics i mean part of your pitch

00:26:32.340 has been that as house leader you've outsmarted polyev on several confidence votes as you put it

00:26:38.420 and stopped him from bringing the government down so what do you think is key to handling

00:26:44.180 a personality like polyev um i'm not sure i want to answer that

00:26:52.100 that makes me want you to answer it even more um let me let me just say that um

00:27:01.540 i think it's about being um thoughtful and smart and understanding uh the person that you're going

00:27:10.960 against and what their objectives are. And when you can understand what their objectives are,

00:27:16.560 you can find ways to make sure that you get what you want.

00:27:22.360 You know, between people like Polly Eve and Trump, we are seeing a real sort of rise of

00:27:27.960 post-truth populism, rife with attacks on media and conspiracy theory dog whistles.

00:27:34.360 I know that you've had an interest in politics your whole life from being class president to

00:27:38.560 studying political science so based on your lifetime of experience and interest in this arena

00:27:44.320 how do you think we can keep our democracy strong in the face of this changing world

00:27:49.360 oh what that is the question it is i mean i have to say that like it's it's actually been

00:27:58.480 one of the uh biggest shocks to me over the last 10 years is seeing the decline in political

00:28:05.360 discourse and conversations here in Canada, but also around the world. You know, what I hear

00:28:13.120 post-leadership debate, you know, from political observers is how much they, you know, the media

00:28:22.780 was like, it was a really boring debate, but for Canadians who were watching were like, oh, wow,

00:28:27.100 it was such a cordial conversation, you know? Yes, you know, I was the one that pushed, but I didn't

00:28:31.640 push very hard. But, you know, I could have gone harder if I wanted to. But to have a respectful

00:28:40.180 dialogue. And I think that's one of the things that, you know, we have a choice in this country

00:28:47.760 as to whether or not we want to elevate the political discourse and the dialogue and the

00:28:53.780 conversation or whether we're going to go down to the level that we're seeing, you know, with the

00:28:59.920 polyevs and the trumps of this world and it is you know this is actually one thing that um that i

00:29:06.540 learned from the prime minister back in 2015 that it's it's a lot easier to be negative in politics

00:29:12.320 it's a lot easier to you know see people's anger and reflect it back at them and not have to

00:29:18.820 actually put you know ideas or policies or solutions on the table it's a lot harder to

00:29:24.880 be positive and to present solutions in politics but I think it's the right thing to do um and so

00:29:32.600 I think that's our choice is you know do we want to um go down to that level and get into the gutter

00:29:39.400 or do we want to you know do what we can to have um you know a more respectful dialogue when it

00:29:45.740 comes to politics and I know that you've experienced this as well it's not always an easy thing to to

00:29:52.200 do and they're like you know being online and on social media it's easier to be a keyboard warrior

00:29:58.680 and say and do awful things um and we've certainly seen that increase i mean like you know don't look

00:30:05.600 at the comments on any of my social media posts if you if you don't want to you know get depressed

00:30:10.800 about the world um but uh but at the same time like i don't know i'm just going to choose hope

00:30:17.200 positivity, respect as we move forward. I think that's just what we have to do. And we have to

00:30:24.960 model that kind of behavior. It doesn't mean that you can't have tough conversations. It doesn't

00:30:29.740 mean that you don't criticize. I think you do all of that. You can just do it in a way that is

00:30:34.600 respectful of others. On the topic of tough conversations, I did want to touch on Gaza.

00:30:42.400 Um, you know, Amnesty International and a UN special committee both found that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Most recently, Israel decided to withhold humanitarian aid from Gaza as a negotiation tactic to press to pressure Hamas into accepting new ceasefire terms.

00:31:00.460 depriving humanitarian aid is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions.

00:31:05.860 We know that you oppose Trump's plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza in the future.

00:31:11.780 But what about the very real violations of international law happening to Palestinians right now?

00:31:16.960 What can we expect you to do to try to stop this?

00:31:23.100 Well, so look, I mean, first of all, I mean, Trump's plan is, I don't even, I mean, that's not even possible.

00:31:29.740 and it's not real and it doesn't help peace in the region at all. My position has always been

00:31:36.600 to do everything we can towards peace. Look, Hamas committed some horrific atrocities on

00:31:43.540 October 7th and we need to do everything we can towards peace. I've always been for

00:31:50.020 a two-state solution where Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in peace and

00:31:56.200 security, humanitarian assistance into Gaza should be non-negotiable. There has been too much

00:32:04.340 suffering and that suffering needs to end and the only way we're going to be able to move towards

00:32:10.260 peace is if there is a real and viable reconstruction in Gaza where people have an opportunity to live

00:32:18.040 free, secure, and prosperous lives side by side with an Israeli state. It has to be that there

00:32:25.860 is no space for Hamas to be in a future government in Gaza. That is important both for the security

00:32:32.360 of Israelis, but also for the freedom and self-determination of Palestinians in Gaza.

00:32:38.340 So from my point of view, you know, we have to ensure that humanitarian assistance

00:32:43.600 gets into Gaza in a robust and meaningful way. Would your liberal government comply with the

00:32:51.320 icc order uh with respect to netanyahu um you know the the arrest warrant well look uh we believe in

00:33:01.400 international law and so my government would follow international law all right um and bringing

00:33:07.240 things back to canada um i i just i do kind of want to round off with a um a question about how

00:33:14.020 everyone's feeling right now um people are having a tough time right um as we sort of spoke about a

00:33:19.560 bit earlier they're scared they're angry and it sometimes feels like our shared reality is under

00:33:25.400 threat and with it our ability to fully participate in a healthy democracy what do you feel your

00:33:31.240 responsibility is in helping to mend this and how do you intend to do that oh look this is

00:33:39.400 there is a desire among some parts of the population to intimidate and dissuade people

00:33:53.220 from participating in our democracy because they know that if they intimidate them that they will

00:34:00.420 back down because they're afraid and that's just not acceptable and you know I've I've I've had

00:34:06.500 this experience as an elected member of parliament and certainly as a woman, but if you're, you

00:34:13.620 know, a member of a visible minority, you know, you experience it even more, that, you

00:34:21.560 know, sometimes it feels like, well, is it worth it for me to raise my voice if I know

00:34:25.780 that I'm going to be attacked for it?

00:34:28.340 My personal feeling is that I have to because I don't want to let them win.

00:34:32.920 I don't want to cede the space to the voices that are trying to bring people down and push

00:34:39.640 people out and so you know I think that we have to have more effective legislation for online harms

00:34:49.560 and hate speech online you know growing up in a digital world if you utter a threat in person

00:34:59.560 or you utter it online I don't really understand what the difference is because people live their

00:35:03.800 lives online and people should feel safe in every space in which they operate whether that's in the

00:35:10.920 physical world or the online world and I will say that you know one of my like great disappointments

00:35:17.880 is that we weren't able to get bill c63 on online harms and hate speech online through the house of

00:35:25.320 of Commons the Conservatives pulled out every trick in the book to prevent this and like I just

00:35:30.380 want to be clear this is like legislation that would also you know protect children from uh you

00:35:38.660 know like sexual predators online like this is this is stuff that like should be a no-brainer

00:35:46.140 I would think for everyone in this country because I don't know why we would say that um hate and

00:35:52.720 abuse are okay online when they're not okay on, you know, on the street. So for me, that is

00:36:01.560 something that I would pursue. I think we need to bring back section 13 of the human rights

00:36:06.800 code in Canada that was removed by Stephen Harper and that led to, you know, an explosion

00:36:12.760 of hateful activity online. And this is something that I think is important for everyone in Canada

00:36:19.280 because you should feel safe and be safe.

00:36:22.420 Not just feel safe, but be safe in all of these spaces.

00:36:25.940 Yeah, I think it's so interesting to me

00:36:28.080 the way that people don't seem to believe

00:36:30.100 that the online world is real life

00:36:32.020 when it's real people, for the most part,

00:36:34.280 behind those computers and those thoughts

00:36:36.380 and, you know, saying these messages

00:36:38.040 and the impact is very real regardless.

00:36:41.640 Well, and try saying that to, like,

00:36:43.780 you know, try saying that to a high school student

00:36:46.980 who, you know, lives their entire life, not their entire life, but spends like a large portion of

00:36:52.420 their life online. Like, it's just, you know, I think it's an outdated perspective. And I think

00:36:57.420 we need to, you know, to update our laws to reflect the reality in which we live now.

00:37:04.080 Yep, absolutely. Karina, I think that's pretty much all the questions that I had for you today.

00:37:09.700 But I do just want to give you the floor for a second, first of all, to tell people where they

00:37:15.160 can keep up with you but also if there's anything we didn't get a chance to touch on that you feel

00:37:19.500 is important for the Canadian people to know about you or a message you think they might need to hear

00:37:24.780 right now I just want to give you the floor for a moment sure so um you can follow me online

00:37:29.700 everywhere are at Karina Gould they're pretty simple um I love talking to younger people that

00:37:35.620 are like wow how did you get your name and I'm like I was there when it started um but uh

00:37:39.880 um so you can absolutely follow me there um i guess i have two things that i'll say one is

00:37:47.980 look with everything that's happening uh in the united states right now i know there's a lot of

00:37:52.840 anxiety uh for people here in canada about what this means maybe for your job maybe for our economy

00:37:59.500 for our way of life for the values that we care about and i just want to reassure you that you

00:38:06.920 know, your leaders, me as a leader in this country are doing everything we can to stand up for Canada

00:38:15.440 and for Canadians. And I have a lot of confidence in who we are as a people. I'm so proud of how

00:38:21.080 everyday Canadians have been, you know, responding, how they're going to the grocery store, they're

00:38:25.000 looking for Canadian products, they're, you know, shopping from Canadian retailers and, you know,

00:38:30.520 deciding not to go to Florida on vacation and staying at home. I think that, you know, is not

00:38:36.600 staying at home but like vacationing here in Canada. These are all important

00:38:41.140 things that we can do as individuals and now is the time where we need to stay

00:38:46.260 united in light of you know this completely ill-considered action and

00:38:52.320 aggressive action by Donald Trump in the United States and I think now is also

00:38:58.100 the time for us to be true to who we are as Canadians and to live our values and

00:39:02.940 to you know really be proud of who we are and I guess the final thing that I'll

00:39:08.820 say is for anyone who has registered in the liberal leadership race in order to

00:39:13.860 vote you need to make sure that your identity is verified by 5 p.m. Eastern

00:39:18.300 time on Friday and you need to cast your ballot before Sunday afternoon so don't

00:39:24.000 forget to do that if you have any trouble you can reach out to my team

00:39:27.740 we're happy to help people in the best way that we can but yeah it's important

00:39:33.740 that you cast your ballot democracy matters votes matter if anyone says that

00:39:38.600 they don't in Burlington in the last provincial election that happened last

00:39:42.560 week the Liberal candidate lost by 40 votes so every single vote matters and

00:39:49.640 your voice matters and yeah I look forward to carrying on this dialogue

00:39:54.440 with Canadians. So thanks for having me, Rachel. Yeah, thank you so much for your time, Karina.

00:39:59.200 My pleasure.

00:40:03.280 Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Bubble Pop. I'm Rachel Gilmore, your least

00:40:07.500 favorite person's least favorite journalist. If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing

00:40:11.360 to Bubble Pop on YouTube, Patreon, Substack, and wherever you like to listen. You can also find me

00:40:16.440 on TikTok, Instagram, Twitch, and Blue Sky. I'd like to say a special thank you to Hans-Vivien

00:40:21.440 Wenzel for making the incredibly groovy music for Bubble Pop. You can find more of his stuff

00:40:25.880 on Spotify under the artist name Hans, lowercase h with an exclamation mark. Thanks again for

00:40:31.660 spending this time with me. Doing this is a literal dream job and I could not do it without

00:40:36.080 your support. So thank you and I'll see you next time.

00:40:51.440 You

Bubble Pop with Rachel Gilmore - March 07, 2025

Why would the Liberals try to out-Poilievre Poilievre？ (with Karina Gould)

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