Culture Club - Biting Back With Cheek Media's Hannah Ferguson

00:00:00.000 Building an independent media platform in the Instagram age, why left-leaning spaces 1.00

00:00:11.740 can sometimes be exclusionary, and navigating white feminism.

00:00:16.300 I'm Jasmine.

00:00:17.600 And I'm Maggie, and you're listening to Culture Club.

00:00:20.600 This is our monthly interview with a person we find interesting and that we think you

00:00:25.100 will too.

00:00:25.500 we acknowledge that the Wurundjeri Wurrung people and the Gadigal people are the traditional

00:00:33.140 custodians of the land upon which we live work and record this podcast we would like to pay

00:00:38.520 our respects to elders past and present always was always will be aboriginal land

00:00:44.500 chances are you've probably seen cheek media instagram posts on your friend's stories

00:00:51.380 With its signature pastel purple branding and whip smart commentary, Cheek Media is one of

00:00:56.560 Australia's largest independent progressive media voices. Hannah Ferguson is a co-founder

00:01:02.260 and CEO of the digital news platform founded in 2020. It now has over 80,000 followers with

00:01:10.680 topics ranging from Australian politics to celebrity news. Hannah's debut non-fiction,

00:01:16.020 Bite Back has now hit the shelves. This insightful and smart book delivers much

00:01:21.260 needed conversations around politics and feminism. Thank you so much for joining us today on Culture

00:01:26.720 Club. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to chat with

00:01:33.200 you. It feels like we're just all catching up, us three, on a call. Just three friends who've

00:01:38.840 never met before in person, but assume a level of friendship. I know, which is the digital age.

00:01:46.020 Would you be able to tell us about you and what you do for audiences who might not know

00:01:51.660 you yet?

00:01:52.760 Yeah, so I'm Hannah Ferguson.

00:01:54.300 I'm the founder, the co-founder and CEO of Cheek Media Co, which is basically an independent

00:01:59.480 progressive news platform.

00:02:01.740 Sort of when it started in 2020, the idea was that it was a new youth media platform

00:02:06.600 that was sort of challenging this idea that I think that a lot of journalism for young

00:02:10.820 people is quite unserious, like pedestrian, junkie, punky.

00:02:13.800 and I sort of wanted to like take the views of young people seriously but provide like hardline

00:02:18.120 left-wing opinions and sort of challenge the Murdoch media landscape as well but it quickly

00:02:22.240 became something that was just not for young people it was for everyone and it just became

00:02:26.120 this progressive challenge to right-wing media in Australia but also it's it's really promoting

00:02:31.280 progressive women's media and sort of reframing the conversation primarily through Instagram but

00:02:35.880 also through other platforms have a website TikTok all of the usual but for me it's just

00:02:40.400 been an exciting three years of going from being a lawyer and living in Brisbane to doing this

00:02:44.440 full-time and now releasing a book it's out now it's called Bite Back it's basically the idea is

00:02:51.680 it's feminism media politics and how we change it all how we how we make change as a community how

00:02:56.800 we come together but it's really asking individuals I think how to challenge our own thinking it's not

00:03:02.760 me saying my views are right it's me saying I'm open to the conversation but how do we have it in

00:03:07.120 a healthy way so I think the book is trying to speak to what I'm doing with cheek and they're

00:03:10.940 very intertwined um it's very exciting to have a book as well to go with what I've been doing

00:03:15.040 online yeah amazing it must be so nice to feel like there's a tangible something you can hold

00:03:20.340 soon um compared to the digital realm which we know all too well how like fleeting it can feel

00:03:26.300 when it's all digital yeah but you mentioned just before that you were a lawyer in Brisbane

00:03:31.720 and now you have Cheek Media which is just going wild on Instagram see everyone I know

00:03:38.600 resharing your post all the time so I was wondering if you could fill us in on that gap

00:03:42.480 what's the origin story of Cheek Media? Yeah so I moved to Brisbane for university when I was 18

00:03:48.000 I'm actually from rural or regional New South Wales Orange which is about three and a half

00:03:52.240 hours west of Sydney but I got a scholarship to go to UQ and study law so I moved to Queensland

00:03:56.620 then when I was 18 by myself thinking I think that a lot of us when we're especially 17 18 and that

00:04:02.640 like I've got that massive eldest daughter people please are overachieving complex like a lot of us

00:04:07.440 do and I didn't know what I wanted and so I thought law was the prestigious impressive thing and I

00:04:13.160 didn't really think beyond that at the time I think a lot of young people are sort of guilty of that

00:04:17.080 of like what's cool at uni and what's like impressive to post about basically then I got

00:04:22.180 to uni I was like this is the worst this is genuinely awful not just because like I really

00:04:27.180 enjoyed the subject matter but I really disliked the culture I really thought that like law as a

00:04:34.040 cohort in most universities in Australia is really elitist it's really you know upper class

00:04:39.080 private education white heteronormative stuffy and I struggled to make friends I didn't really

00:04:46.200 get it I wanted to become more progressive and I did through living on campus and meeting different

00:04:50.520 people at uni as you do and I sort of also felt like excluded from these spaces like I felt like

00:04:55.480 I could intellectually keep up but I was like I don't feel like I'm part of a conversation I don't

00:04:59.300 feel like anyone's reflecting on their privilege and I was kind of like I've come from a conservative

00:05:03.400 family I wanted to do something different so I started volunteering with a feminist not-for-profit

00:05:07.980 called the One Woman Project and I met my two co-founders there who were actually like my

00:05:12.580 supervisors at this organization we made a magazine together for that not-for-profit and then we sort

00:05:18.300 of decided there's something missing in the media landscape and why don't we have a crack

00:05:22.380 and that's how Cheek was born basically was the three of us going let's just start an Instagram

00:05:27.480 platform let's start a website and let's just have a have a go basically and it was at the height of

00:05:31.660 COVID lockdown when BuzzFeed sort of had fallen and we were like there's gaps in the market for

00:05:36.760 this you know and we didn't really know what we were doing and we just started posting pretty

00:05:40.580 consistently and it was basically the takeoff was definitely before the federal election last year

00:05:47.540 It was about 10,000 followers in the space of seven days.

00:05:50.580 The growth was huge.

00:05:51.640 And it was because no one was kind of answering to this Morrison government.

00:05:56.260 The media was supportive of that in large part.

00:05:58.880 And so we were trying to challenge that and people were flocking to it because they weren't

00:06:01.720 seeing it anywhere else.

00:06:02.920 Gave me an outlet to not only develop my writing skills to challenge this legal background,

00:06:08.620 but also use it, but to see another career path.

00:06:10.960 But for me, it was also about like offering something new and teaching myself as I went

00:06:17.280 along.

00:06:17.620 Like I'm not better than any Cheekful.

00:06:19.120 I'm not instructing.

00:06:20.280 I'm literally learning as we go and at the same pace.

00:06:23.020 And I think that's kind of the feel is like I want a two-way dialogue.

00:06:26.560 I don't want to be patronizing people or talking down to people.

00:06:29.440 I'm learning with you.

00:06:30.600 That's kind of the whole premise as well.

00:06:33.420 Completely.

00:06:33.940 And that process of starting Cheek with two of your friends, how was that?

00:06:38.500 I think Jaz and I especially are always keenly interested in the dynamics of like friendship

00:06:43.440 and business and how they intertwine.

00:06:45.540 So yeah, what was that like for you?

00:06:47.740 It was really good actually, because they, both of my co-founders, Kristen and Catherine

00:06:52.460 were a bit older than me, a couple of years older than me.

00:06:55.080 And they had guided me through working together with a not-for-profit and, you know, we each

00:07:00.560 had a very different skillset and the way that we worked was very different.

00:07:03.860 I think that's how, I think that's how friendship serves best in business.

00:07:07.160 and also our friendship kind of was formed around the business so we had only known each other for

00:07:12.060 a brief amount of time before we started so we were kind of building friendship and growing

00:07:16.120 friendship and connection through cheek as well um and so we had like katherine was a brilliant

00:07:21.380 uh graphic designer who helped with the website and all of that beautiful aesthetic that you see

00:07:25.580 with cheek kristin is the most like regimented consistent person ever and so i was kind of like

00:07:30.900 the way we used to describe it was like i was the hamish and kristin i was the hamish and kristin

00:07:35.200 for Andy. Like that was the dynamic and Catherine would do all the graphics and the more, you know,

00:07:40.000 aesthetic things for Cheek. But I think that as a friend group, it was really, it was such an

00:07:45.960 interesting process to build a business around a friendship. And now it is just me. So since last

00:07:50.220 October, it's been just me. And that's an interesting transition too, to go from having

00:07:54.460 two co-founders to just being by yourself and also knowing and understanding and acknowledging

00:07:58.900 that it was their baby and it's not just my thing and how to kind of remain grounded in that. And

00:08:04.880 I'm still, even though they're not involved with Cheek anymore, I still make every decision

00:08:09.120 thinking, would they be okay with this? Because I don't want to, I don't want to undo that work

00:08:14.640 as well. And that's a hard, a hard moral thing internally with me. And so are you doing this

00:08:20.380 full time now by yourself? Yes. So I was doing, I was working as a lawyer, as an industrial officer

00:08:28.200 for a union, actually. So not as a lawyer formally, but I was running matters in the

00:08:32.560 Federal Court and Fair Work Commission and doing Cheek on the side until January of this year

00:08:37.360 and so at that point we had more than 50,000 followers it was like daily post and being in

00:08:43.920 Brisbane it just meant it was such a struggle because I wasn't kind of in the sphere I needed

00:08:47.660 to be to be doing the networking and branching and expanding that I needed to be doing for Cheek

00:08:52.680 and it was kind of like a moment where I had to make a choice and it was a big risk because there

00:08:57.340 isn't that safety net when you're self-employed and so that was that was a big moment too but I

00:09:02.220 decided like it was now or never and I knew that like I loved my job in Brisbane and I loved my

00:09:06.960 life in Brisbane but I've known since I started Cheek that it was going to be my thing and so it

00:09:12.180 was like I had that gut instinct and I knew and so it's been a really really big learning curve

00:09:17.240 the last eight months but like every day I wake up and I'm like this is my thing and I know it

00:09:21.500 and that's just amazing to feel at 25. Yeah it's such it's a lot easier I think to trust yourself

00:09:27.080 when you have that gut instinct yes yeah and I also love the um you made a Instagram video the

00:09:33.760 other day when the Matildas were playing and you were like it's just me I'm sitting at the pub

00:09:38.640 at halftime making these little tweets on Canva I think Maggie and I know all too well when people

00:09:43.880 are like oh put us in touch with your like publicist team or whatever and we're like it's

00:09:48.060 just us like scrappy you just scrappily do stuff when you have the time right and that's how you

00:09:52.720 end up building something like you have done which is incredible yeah and I think that it's

00:09:57.620 so funny I constantly get emails that are like put you know can I come into the team into the

00:10:01.340 office and meet the team and I also think it gives people room like what I find interesting

00:10:06.680 is that I forget people don't know it's just me so when people are critical or when people are

00:10:10.700 awful which they are often I take it so personally but I also realize that they're expecting x amount

00:10:17.140 of coverage because they think there's 10 people working on it and if they knew the reality that

00:10:20.920 I'm one person who's just sitting at the pub at halftime at the Matildas game tweeting my little

00:10:26.240 heart out they'd probably go a bit easier or they'd be a bit more understanding but I think

00:10:29.900 there is an expectation that I'm not saying I'm not publicly always saying I'm one person and most

00:10:34.820 followers I don't think realize I'm one person and that's a that's actually a compliment to be

00:10:40.120 sort of faking it to the point where people think it's a team or an office or like we've got all

00:10:43.600 this funding but the reality is it is just me having a go and having a crack and I will get

00:10:49.920 it wrong. I will mess it up. I will make a mistake. And I think it's like, for me, I think the chaos

00:10:55.760 and the messiness of the way I post and the way I engage is the greatest strength of it. Because I

00:11:00.160 think that people are, if I just have the conversation and say, I effed that, and I want

00:11:05.500 to talk about why, I always am scared, but people are so, so understanding. And I was always worried

00:11:12.160 about that, especially with social media. But it's been shocking how positive it's been, which is

00:11:16.760 really nice can you remember any examples of that happening where you've gotten something

00:11:21.700 quote-unquote wrong or you've had a good dialogue with your audience in that way

00:11:25.480 yeah so a good example would be a few months ago I think maybe February or March it went of the

00:11:32.380 it was a voice note that came out from Andrew Tate and it was really graphic

00:11:37.140 about sexual violence and I put a quote from the audio recording as the front tile on a

00:11:45.660 cheek post where I wrote about what the recording was what it meant what we should think and do

00:11:49.680 about and how to converse about it basically but I put a content warning above the quote but the

00:11:55.740 content warning was much smaller in a different font and when I posted it I received immediate

00:12:02.060 10 or 15 comments and the worst part was I'd put my phone on I usually put my phone on do not

00:12:05.700 disturb for the 20 minutes or half an hour after I make a post because I don't want to deal with

00:12:10.360 it I just want to go and have my lunch and just like step away from the instant gratification of

00:12:14.240 social media response and so I put my phone down and when I picked it back up I realized that people

00:12:18.980 were I had put a lot of people into distress basically and I you know the comment was the

00:12:26.960 sort of the rhetoric was it didn't need to be like that and you've caused harm and you could

00:12:33.140 have put a front tile on it saying what the content was so we didn't have to swipe through

00:12:36.700 and so I immediately took it down I did that and I reposted it and I got a few messages that were

00:12:44.740 like it's just not good enough and you know what it's not that's just fact um and I fixed it and

00:12:50.600 people were really thankful and kind and can and really empathetic towards that but at the end of

00:12:55.520 the day it wasn't you know there's there's nothing I can do because at the end of the day when I think

00:13:00.100 back yes I was just rushing through the post and I wasn't really being thoughtful or considerate

00:13:04.740 you know I was just getting it out I was getting the information out at speed because it's messy

00:13:08.300 and that's what I do but I must have also there must also be part there where I reflect and go

00:13:12.800 did I want that to be inflammatory I must you know I I didn't think about font sizes I didn't

00:13:17.560 think about that graphic and it's also about for me moving forward going it doesn't matter you know

00:13:22.940 that I'm getting likes it matters that people aren't harmed and that's always going to be my

00:13:26.700 priority and that's what I that's what I purport media should do and it's about following the

00:13:31.500 steps that I want to, that I criticize and amplify in other sources. And so for me, it's like just

00:13:39.160 being honest, acknowledging the mistake, feeling bad about it, because feeling guilty is not a bad

00:13:43.080 thing in this scenario, but making that manageable and going, okay, got to keep moving though.

00:13:47.780 I've acknowledged it. I've sat with it. I made a mistake, but not also allowing that to stop me

00:13:52.100 from doing my job. Completely. I think it's so bang on what you're talking about with,

00:13:57.060 I guess how all of us in whatever kind of aspect of the media industry we find ourselves in

00:14:02.780 Australia like we do fall into the tendency of like okay we're usually under deadline or we're

00:14:08.840 usually in a rush and we are like subconsciously thinking about likes and how things are going to

00:14:13.860 be perceived and sometimes these things do slip through the cracks but I do really respect the

00:14:19.000 way that you handled that and the way that you just um told us about it so I appreciate you

00:14:23.080 sharing that one. Thank you. I mean, it's just like, we're all going to do it and it's just

00:14:28.080 thoughtless, but it's like, you know, you've got to be the change that you're expecting to see.

00:14:32.920 Yeah, completely. And back just before you were talking about how, you know, it is a

00:14:37.640 interesting position you find yourself in running Cheek Media all by yourself. And I mean, that's

00:14:43.100 not the only solo project you've embarked on, right? Your book is out now, Bite Back. Can you

00:14:48.560 tell us about the process of putting it together yeah and it's a terrible process I'm not a routine

00:14:54.760 or disciplined person so I actually like this is terrible I think when I say it out loud but I

00:15:00.160 signed the contract for the book I think December last year or November and then I had to hand it in

00:15:07.320 in March that is fast that's a fast I don't know I also was working full-time alongside running

00:15:13.960 jeep until january and then i moved to sydney in january and i i this is horrible i don't even know

00:15:23.260 if my my publishing house would want me to say this i wrote the book in 58 days that is incredible

00:15:29.060 and i that's horrendous i to say aloud i don't think i've said it out loud

00:15:33.640 but i i am not someone who can work without intense pressure i am someone who's like with

00:15:42.680 my little tweets on the Matilda's game but that's actually how I best work is like 10 minutes go go

00:15:46.640 go do your best work right now and that's not good but that's exactly how I was as a uni student

00:15:51.520 it's exactly how I was as a school student and the editing team have been brilliant at making

00:15:56.700 me go back and be like you could make that better and you know it and I've been like so true queen

00:16:01.060 so it's like it's been a it was I I think the thing for me though is as much as I said it was

00:16:07.800 written in 58 days I knew exactly what I wanted it to be by that point like I had the structure

00:16:11.760 I'm not it's also it's not a book of heavy research it's not a years-long endeavor it's

00:16:16.760 not a it's not a I mean to some people it will be a really heavy text um I'm not undermining that

00:16:21.620 but I think that it's like it's a book of my thoughts and opinions that have been formed

00:16:26.120 through my work over the course of years so it's like I know what I think and what I believe and

00:16:30.520 I have a lot of conviction in that it's just the actual discipline of putting it out well was like

00:16:36.160 not long enough that's it's not I'm not proud of that next book if there is one I'm not sure

00:16:41.860 if there is it was really hard uh it might be better well we've started reading it and we can

00:16:48.060 say that it's incredible and we've yeah I was reading it in the cafe this morning and it's

00:16:52.680 very easy to read and you have great descriptions and yeah even though the content's heavy it's a

00:16:58.660 a good flowing read so congratulations thank you thank you incredible you wrote it in a summer

00:17:04.000 essentially was it just like get up every morning and just sit at your computer all summer or

00:17:08.540 uh negative it was it was me my friends putting me on block until i hit a certain word count every

00:17:16.560 day it was my best friends being like do you need food what's going on like the i wrote i remember i

00:17:23.920 wrote 32 000 words in seven days before the due date i i actually don't know i shouldn't be this

00:17:29.200 honest i can't lie though because i'm like isn't it a bit impressive but i'm also like it's terrible

00:17:33.920 like that final week i was writing 18 hours a day and i i sent it off the first manuscript and i was

00:17:40.500 just like a shell of myself like i was like i because it was like someone had just absolutely

00:17:45.960 taken my brain out of my head and put it in a glass jar somewhere i was like i was hollow up here

00:17:50.620 and i had no thoughts just vibes and i slept for like three days straight it was really bad

00:17:55.680 but i think that it was like a process of i think the the reason there was 32 000 words in that's

00:18:01.080 last seven days was because so much of it was write 5,000 words, delete 2,000, right? It was

00:18:05.400 just so much back and forth with myself. Yeah. And I have to say, I actually don't remember the

00:18:11.180 last time this has ever happened. I read it all in one day. Really? I read it all yesterday. Yes.

00:18:17.220 I was obsessed, Hannah. Like it was so engaging, so, so enjoyable to read, even though as you

00:18:23.560 mentioned, like it does grapple obviously with some heavy themes, but loved it. I literally ate

00:18:29.480 that because also like I know that it's jumping between a lot of different topics and I hoped the

00:18:34.220 effect was you're not getting not to say this is what happens with other non-fiction books but when

00:18:39.580 it's on one thing it gets it's hard to keep going I was hoping it was like one chapter bang next

00:18:44.360 idea next idea and you're getting a taste of everything and it's like that that core ideas

00:18:49.360 of cheek and women's media generally but that's such a compliment thank you so much

00:18:54.080 oh of course one thing i felt really interesting learning about you is um you know you don't shy

00:19:00.620 away from your background as well you know you went to a catholic high school in orange new

00:19:04.960 south wales you also speak quite openly about your um some of your conservative family members

00:19:09.920 so i'm wondering how did this all shape your political views and outspokenness yeah so i mean

00:19:17.220 it's really interesting because my parents both follow cheek and like i'm pretty open about sex

00:19:22.080 politics everything on cheek and so I think that they've really adapted well like I absolute kudos

00:19:27.360 to them truly because that's not easy um and it's not easy to be put on blast really by a child in

00:19:34.840 the public sphere and that is what I'm doing and so thing about my parents is when we when I was

00:19:40.380 growing up I think that they just weren't that politically engaged and they had that Murdoch

00:19:45.320 rhetoric just deeply entrenched like they are people that are like liberals are better for the

00:19:49.320 economy. You know, they are the mouthpiece for that sort of really the plain and simple headlines

00:19:53.320 that everyone knows and hates. But I think that now, I think the most important part of this

00:20:00.360 conversation is, yes, I'm quite critical of my parents and their views. And I was brought up

00:20:04.660 with those views. And so it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 that I have changed because I have friends

00:20:09.760 from high school who were coming out in year 11 and 12. And I did not know how to respond because

00:20:14.740 my parents didn't support gay marriage and so I had grown up in that household with that mindset 0.94

00:20:20.660 and I think the point to be made is yes I have shame and guilt about those views but I think I

00:20:27.000 want to be living proof that anyone can wake up to this conversation as well not to say that I was

00:20:32.900 bigoted or you know it's not like that but I was very confused about my views because I'd only had

00:20:38.060 that experience in a regional small town with a conservative family and a conservative school

00:20:42.680 and so now I think the best part is that I'm doing this with my career and my parents are so open to

00:20:50.600 it my parents are ringing me to talk about a headline and to ask my take and not to agree

00:20:56.420 with it but to say like am I missing something and we're having these conversations all the time

00:21:03.240 and no they're not completely on the same page as me with every single one but they're open to

00:21:07.780 listening and we're always having that conversation. And so for me, it's like my entire shtick is like

00:21:13.240 we need to learn how to be not sympathetic or forgiving necessarily for hateful and harmful

00:21:20.200 views, but for the people that are just asking the question and have the wrong idea, but not by

00:21:25.620 fault of their own, there's a difference between being hateful and being uninformed. And I really

00:21:31.340 want to bridge that gap and say to people, if you've only grown up for over decades with a Sky

00:21:37.320 news diet it's actually not that hard for me to sit down by my parents every couple of months and

00:21:42.360 say x y and z facts these are my views this is why this view is wrong and have a hard conversation

00:21:47.940 an uncomfortable conversation but I think over time they get easier and so for me it's like I'm

00:21:52.340 don't feel like I'm grappling with anything anymore because my family knows who I am and I'm

00:21:56.040 not willing to shy away from that it's actually my extended family that are harder yeah because

00:22:00.280 we're not as close and we don't see each other as often but they hold the same views I think for me

00:22:05.020 it's about owning my views, being open to having my mind changed, being open to healthy conversation,

00:22:12.000 not being so defensive, and instead sitting with the understanding of why they might think the way

00:22:16.660 they do, and saying, okay, where can we meet in the middle? Where's the common ground? Where's

00:22:21.900 the moral agreement? And can we go somewhere from there? Yeah, well, that's the first chapter of

00:22:27.180 your book, No Politics Before Desert is a chapter name. And yeah, I found that super, it's super

00:22:34.220 important to have these conversations and i think sometimes in left-leaning spaces we can be so like

00:22:38.840 it's self-care to like be in an echo chamber almost like i'm putting my step myself first by

00:22:45.460 like blocking anyone whose opinion is different to mine or like i'm not having that conversation 0.99

00:22:51.340 with you because if you don't get it you're stupid and we both love this quote in your book 0.98

00:22:55.320 which we both book what um it says there is an immediacy and demand for opinion and progression 1.00

00:23:00.960 to be uniform in left-leaning spaces to match pace.

00:23:04.400 If you are falling behind, you are failing.

00:23:06.720 If you do not have the vocabulary, you are simply not radical enough.

00:23:10.760 Can you talk about your experience with this and why it's important?

00:23:15.180 Yes.

00:23:16.360 This is actually kind of why Cheek was born because when I was volunteering

00:23:20.640 with this feminist not-for-profit and I was 19 or 20, I think,

00:23:23.880 at the time, I made this magazine and it was like their central publication

00:23:30.840 that was helping just to raise money, because the central element of this not-for-profit was that

00:23:35.100 they ran healthy relationships courses in schools. So it was really positive, and I wanted to make

00:23:39.180 something they could sell to get more funding, blah, blah, blah. And when we developed the

00:23:44.040 magazine, had a bunch of different contributors, the style guide that they chose, this is a random

00:23:49.000 example, but I think it proves the point well, they wanted women to have X inserted in the place

00:23:55.860 of E or A to be more inclusive.

00:24:00.100 And at the time, again, coming from a really conservative background,

00:24:03.460 just moving to a city, just sort of finding my feet at uni

00:24:07.280 and becoming more feminist and discovering what that word

00:24:09.800 even means to me, I was confused but I didn't feel

00:24:14.840 like I could say anything because I thought that to ask the question

00:24:18.040 was to be offensive.

00:24:19.820 And I remember at this time there was this movement towards

00:24:24.040 like the women with an X in the place of an A or an E as being like, well, that encompasses all

00:24:29.420 women, including gender diverse, transgender women, right? And my immediate thought was,

00:24:35.660 isn't that the opposite? Isn't that exclusive? Because wouldn't we just say women is all women

00:24:42.720 and not change the word? Because that's sort of changing, that's saying you need something

00:24:46.660 different to be included. And that didn't make sense to me logically. And so I never said anything,

00:24:51.900 but I was confused. And that's part of the reason I actually left that not-for-profit and started

00:24:55.380 Cheek because I was like, how do I make a space where someone who's just getting started with

00:25:01.500 left-leaning ideas, with gender equality, which isn't a radical idea, can feel welcome to ask

00:25:07.680 questions, but it's also about changing the rhetoric. So it's about how do we not offend

00:25:13.160 when we ask these questions as well? It is a fine line often. And for me, that was a prime example

00:25:18.580 of, I felt so fearful that I decided I was unwelcome. And that was on me, I probably could

00:25:23.900 have asked the question. But then a few years later, you know, we had this movement back from

00:25:27.600 that from that. And it was suddenly the X wasn't needed. And we weren't using that. I think that's

00:25:31.900 kind of a good reflection of left leaning space as well as often there's this deep want to jump

00:25:37.080 the gun on everything. And I consider myself to be really radical and left leaning. But also,

00:25:43.340 sometimes I can be made to feel centrist, you know, and I think that what the left gets wrong

00:25:48.080 is certain corners demonize people who aren't keeping up. And my question is, how do I make

00:25:56.640 a space and how do I create a sense of community with people that feel comfortable to learn more

00:26:01.900 and feel comfortable asking questions that may, also as a white woman with privilege,

00:26:06.480 I'm more than happy to be asked these questions. I don't want to speak for anyone else,

00:26:10.120 but I am more than happy to take my time to make sure that you are more educated so you don't

00:26:14.480 offend someone who may be part of the marginalized group you're asking the question about.

00:26:17.480 and so for me it's like how to create this safe space for people how to make people feel welcome

00:26:22.360 and how to reduce infighting and say we don't have to agree point blank 100 on every issue

00:26:28.220 to create a movement and create change and that's really what I wanted to sort of

00:26:33.680 propel as an idea with that quote completely and I mean you just um touched on it there but

00:26:40.160 I also especially loved your last chapter in the book and you talk about how quote exclusive white

00:26:46.420 and judgmental, the feminism you were engaging in felt when you were younger. So I want to know,

00:26:51.880 as a white woman who is a feminist, how do you avoid falling into white feminism? 0.99

00:26:57.320 I think as a white woman, you do fall into white feminism, right? I think that's your starting, 0.98

00:27:01.820 your starting point is, and I think it's because this is really harsh, but I find the biggest

00:27:07.380 struggle is getting people to care about issues that don't affect them. That's advocacy, right?

00:27:12.660 That is, people generally are propelled into activism by an experience they have had.

00:27:18.520 So whether that means, you know, you were a victim of sexual violence or you're part

00:27:21.920 of a marginalised community and you're not being hurt or you're being oppressed by another

00:27:25.440 group, you are usually ignited by your own lived experience, which is fair.

00:27:32.200 My question is, how do we go beyond that?

00:27:35.240 And how do I go beyond that, right?

00:27:36.920 And it's like, I don't always.

00:27:38.840 sometimes I fall into the trap of caring about issues that I see myself as part of

00:27:42.820 and I will never be I think being intersectional is a constant work I'm not going to sit here and

00:27:48.960 be like I am a perfect intersectional feminist I am absolutely not you know I think that people

00:27:53.760 are so desperate to be immune to criticism that they end up being too arrogant about it and so

00:28:01.800 for me it's like again I'm going to f up and I am not going to represent every group I'm not always

00:28:05.740 you know my my content I don't always remember to put the image description and I should and it's

00:28:10.420 not good enough and I don't always get a good cross-section of posts and I need to be paying

00:28:15.060 more writers to write more intersectional pieces like there are so many things that I could be

00:28:18.440 doing better every single day and it's a constant work and it's a constant list of what's that one 1.00

00:28:23.780 thing I could do tomorrow next week in a month in a year and I think the thing about white women 1.00

00:28:30.880 is that there's this tendency to see women as a homogenous group. There's this tendency to think 1.00

00:28:37.680 the way forward is to improve our experience. But often the feminism that that ends up looking like 1.00

00:28:44.900 is white women's privileges rise, but the general equity of all women does not. And it's about 0.99

00:28:52.940 increasing privilege as opposed to moving a movement forward of gender equity. So I think

00:28:58.880 that's the difference also between like equality and equity is like we're just all we think that

00:29:02.640 if our experience improves we'll drag everyone else up with us and that's just not the truth I 0.98

00:29:06.320 think a lot of white women close the door and lock it behind them and so I think that it's 1.00

00:29:10.060 about being critical it's about opposing that choice feminism ideal that like anything a woman

00:29:14.260 does is good because she's a woman like you know I'm not going to defend Julie Bishop or Pauline

00:29:19.020 Hanson I'm here to criticize them as equally as the men that they actually support so for me it's

00:29:24.400 about being aware, being reflective, and knowing that I could always be doing something more. Not

00:29:30.060 sitting in guilt or shame enough to stop me from doing anything, but being aware and deciding what

00:29:35.340 I'm going to do each week to do something better. I'm putting my money where my mouth is as well.

00:29:39.580 I need to get better at that and more consistent. On the topic of white feminism, we've seen in the 1.00

00:29:43.920 last few years, especially on social media and Instagram, the concept of activism virtue signaling

00:29:50.460 especially came around um with the black lives matter movement and the sharing of infographics

00:29:55.220 to stories which also has kind of been turned into a misogynistic joke going on a tangent i

00:30:01.100 do find that a lot of uh particularly men are making fun of women who post infographics to

00:30:06.160 stories now um but how do you grapple with this when like a lot of your content is this like tweet

00:30:14.280 to infographic story pipeline absolutely and obviously i build engagement and followers

00:30:19.660 us through that right and so it's like people's performance of specific issues is my win and

00:30:24.660 that's really hard to deal with and it also means that it's horrific because when something's going

00:30:30.220 really wrong that's my biggest period of growth and it's not because I'm capitalizing on harm

00:30:35.840 but it's like I'm trying to bring people some sort of understanding or trying to put people's

00:30:44.140 thoughts into words and and give that validation or affirmation of the feeling and the experience

00:30:48.920 but you're right and also like it's really hard because people take much more easily to issues

00:30:55.560 that affect white women there's the share rate the like rate you know it's the engagement I've

00:31:01.860 got with the Matildas versus my engagement with immigration posts you can't even compare them you

00:31:07.820 know and a lot of the time people are saying I want this content I want this content I put it

00:31:11.580 out I get nothing and it's really interesting because I don't know how to navigate that because

00:31:16.640 it does not make it not important but it also means that the algorithm buries it people don't

00:31:22.380 engage with it and it's very hard to know where to put your time to make the distribution as

00:31:28.740 intersectional as possible right and it's it's you know it's not great at the moment it's really

00:31:32.520 hard to navigate personally i think that with this performance idea as well i think that when people

00:31:39.920 share things online as a I support this view it is a pipeline to get started I think that people

00:31:47.840 want to feel part of something and they want to feel and I think that you know January 26 is

00:31:52.260 usually a good example of when people feel most like activating something but my question is how

00:31:57.400 do I then throughout the year go well if you weren't at a January 26 invasion day rally

00:32:03.900 what are you doing with your voice shirt on unless you're also participating and listening

00:32:10.200 at other times of the year during NAIDOC week are you just hiring someone but what are you doing for

00:32:13.700 the rest of the year in your workplace how to continue that conversation and make it consistent

00:32:18.080 and make it reflective of like are you doing it because it's a mark in the calendar or it's a

00:32:22.300 specific day that you need to perform how do we build on that and it's hard because I don't want

00:32:26.600 to build on it through shaming but I want to build on it by questioning as to why why do we pick it

00:32:31.120 up and put it down. We pick up and put down issues all the time. And yes, the news cycle

00:32:34.880 is relentless and it's exhausting and there's a lot of fatigue. And people do need to have hope

00:32:39.860 and positivity in order to continue engaging with different issues. But for me, I understand a lot

00:32:46.060 of the time social media is performative, but that doesn't make it useless. It means the next

00:32:50.260 question is, how do we take it a step further? How do we go from sharing the infographic to

00:32:55.280 donating to the GoFundMe? How do we go from liking the Instagram post to buying the book? How do we

00:33:00.540 go from, you know, commenting or sharing with a friend to paying to attend the seminar, listen to

00:33:04.820 that person speak and taking a friend with you. And it's not going to be perfect, but I will

00:33:09.980 celebrate everyone's slow progress. As long as the intentions are good. I mean, there is intention

00:33:15.900 versus impact and that's an important consideration, but I'm not going to demonise someone for it. I

00:33:20.080 just want to ask, what's the next step for you? I love that. And as the future PM of Australia,

00:33:28.300 what do you wish more people knew about or cared about when it came when it comes to Australian

00:33:34.900 politics I think that people like my greatest passion is that people feel like politics and

00:33:42.360 the law are boring and complicated and stuffy and they are but the reason they are is so that you

00:33:48.320 are too scared to engage the reason that the language is used the reason that the systems

00:33:53.560 are in place is because they feel terrifying and they feel complicated and it's all bureaucracy 0.99

00:33:59.440 and it's all shit, really. And so for me, it's about saying, this is a time to step up. I want 0.99

00:34:06.140 you to feel FOMO. That's actually what I want people to feel. That's what my content aims to do

00:34:09.940 is I think that people's best engagement is when they feel like they're being tricked. And if I

00:34:15.360 say to people, these nine letter words that these lawyers and politicians and gatekeepers of

00:34:20.160 corporate Australia are putting forward can be dismantled and reframed simply, which is what I

00:34:26.320 try to do with Cheek. And if you feel welcome to this conversation, like your voice matters,

00:34:31.300 we can change everything. But people aren't taught in school for a reason, particular political

00:34:37.280 elements, particular historical elements, particular legal elements. And those baselines

00:34:43.260 and foundational knowledges should be given in year nine and 10, because I think that it would

00:34:46.820 make us all better voters and better participants in the legal system and in society generally,

00:34:50.620 right? My passion is, how do I make this complex issue easy for people so that the next time they're

00:34:56.380 asked about it, they can engage in a conversation with a family member, they can know how to vote

00:35:00.040 better. I'm not going to tell you how to vote, I'm not going to tell you how to converse, but I want

00:35:03.360 you to feel empowered to do it. And so for me, it's like, if I was to enter politics, my deepest

00:35:10.520 hope is that I would completely reshape the way politicians speak to people, the way we engage

00:35:16.200 with communities. And I have, I don't even know if it's possible. I can't see a world where

00:35:21.080 politicians don't have this stuffy puppet media training that they do, but I want to break down

00:35:26.800 those barriers. That's why Instagram is so chaotic for me. Like I'm so honest and too honest all the

00:35:32.400 time. But I think it's because I, my biggest fear is that we all become LinkedIn. You know, I just

00:35:37.820 cannot stand this crap that we say all the time. And for me, it's like, how do we get online and 0.99

00:35:44.420 have a different conversation and a two-way dialogue and i would love to see that in parliament

00:35:48.560 in the judicial judicial system and actually change the language and make it accessible for

00:35:53.740 people yes there are particular issues i'm passionate about but i think the all-encompassing

00:35:56.980 issue is the way that power speaks to the public i think you're so good at that on cheek media as

00:36:03.340 well i think that's the reason why um when we got on we're like oh hi because the way you speak to

00:36:07.560 your audience is so just like a friend facetiming you and people think like oh it's easy to be

00:36:13.600 yourself online but it's actually really hard like I've tried to do that type of like casual

00:36:18.120 speak to camera stuff and like to do that in front of 50,000 people and like having that

00:36:22.800 two-way dialogue with an audience is very um admirable so thank you thank you and it is hard

00:36:29.040 and it's also it's still fake and and you know that that sucks to say it's not fake it's as close

00:36:33.680 as it can get yeah but I you know I'm still a person with a lot of stuff that I don't publicly

00:36:37.920 talk about and I think people forget that and it's it's um it's still a vulnerable act every time

00:36:42.980 Yeah. And we wanted to know as well, what has been the toughest challenge running Chick Media

00:36:49.380 and being in that social commentary space? I think the hardest is being one person, but

00:36:56.820 being a company. Like I'm not a media platform. If I'm one person, I'm an opinion, you know,

00:37:01.700 and how do I represent the views of a wide audience when I just have a take? And I also

00:37:08.760 worry deeply that I might get it wrong or that people take what I'm saying as gospel and just

00:37:13.900 reverberate and I don't want to be an echo chamber and it often is you know that's unavoidable in a

00:37:19.120 social media algorithm that's committed to that but for me it's like I am one person I will get

00:37:26.300 it wrong and I don't have anyone to bounce off like my friends can listen but they're not taking

00:37:30.740 the risk of 70 something thousand people dealing with this and responding to this and I'm still

00:37:37.220 just putting ideas out there without a lot of expertise you know I'm not claiming to know

00:37:41.300 everything I'm not claiming to have all the answers but the pressure is still there and

00:37:45.380 that's self-inflicted pressure but it's it's hard because I'm never going to be able to capture

00:37:50.500 everything I need to capture as one person and I want to build something that lasts way beyond me

00:37:55.300 and isn't dependent on me personally feeling like you're facetiming me you know and it's like how do

00:38:00.140 you build something that's progressive and united and interesting and accessible when you're one

00:38:05.780 person right now who's just trying to like keep her rent being paid as well so it's like it's a

00:38:11.600 fine balance and I'm very I'm very hard on myself and I'm very judgmental and I know things are

00:38:16.000 going well but I'm constantly just like internally agonizing over how to represent people and how to

00:38:22.800 have good conversations without getting just lost in myself as well it's such a hard balance but I

00:38:27.700 think especially from our conversation today it just you've shown I think us and everyone else

00:38:33.360 who's listening just how much you care and I think that's almost the most important thing like how

00:38:37.720 seriously you take your platform which is so refreshing to hear as well um we are just up to

00:38:43.360 our final question so every week on yeah I know we could keep going on forever but um every week

00:38:50.900 on our podcast we give our listeners recommendations on what we've enjoyed like reading listening to

00:38:55.780 or watching and we want to know can you share a recommendation you've been loving recently yes

00:39:02.560 I'm reading currently, I'm only a few, like I'm not that far in, but I know it's my recommendation

00:39:07.060 already. It's a book called Tissue by Madison Griffiths. And it's basically like a cultural,

00:39:12.860 it's a personal story, but it's a cultural commentary on abortion. And it's really

00:39:18.500 beautifully written. It's an incredible piece of writing. And I haven't read something that's

00:39:23.960 really taken me so quickly as that. And I think that's my recommendation. Yeah, because I haven't

00:39:28.940 seen it talked about that much. And I think that people should go and buy it because it's really

00:39:32.320 fascinating work and she's incredible very brave yeah i definitely want to read that and pick that

00:39:37.740 up and we saw in a bookshop the other day mags we're shopping together yes medicine griffiths

00:39:41.820 need to get this so yeah thank you for recommending and thank you for being on the podcast it's been

00:39:47.840 such a pleasure chatting with you and if our audience wants to know more where can they find

00:39:53.740 you instagram at cheekmedia.co is the best place and we'll also have a link to your book that

00:40:01.500 everyone can purchase in our show notes. Thank you so much. Of course. Well, thanks again for

00:40:07.720 joining us, Hannah. We'll chat to you later. Thank you. Bye.

Culture Club - October 02, 2023

Biting Back With Cheek Media's Hannah Ferguson

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