00:08:40.560So there's like forensics, if you're interested in criminology, there's organizational, if you're
00:08:46.720interested in like HR and how to make billions for a company. There's ClinPsych, if you're
00:08:52.540interested in those like really interesting psychiatric disorders, like schizophrenia and
00:08:56.840bipolar and anxiety, depression. And then there's the science of the brain and the way that the
00:09:03.600brain works, all the weird and wonderful things that our brain does when it goes wrong. I'm
00:09:10.280a zombie. I love brains. I love brains. I really love them. Did I answer your question?0.78
00:09:18.160Was there something else in there? No, that's, yeah, I guess that's how you got into it. So
00:09:24.140you have a new book coming out this week, which is exploring more about the topic of friendship.
00:09:31.440So could you tell us more about the book and why you decided to hone in on friendships and
00:09:37.120relationships specifically? So I suppose my, because I know all about the brain as a neuro
00:09:43.440and as, cause I've got a PhD in neuroscience as well. And because I know all about relationships,
00:09:47.840because I'm also a psychologist, um, I sort of was very fascinated by the science and the
00:09:54.860neuroscience of relationships. It's always kind of caught my eye, you know, how there's all sorts
00:09:59.940of cool theories. And maybe one day we can go into it about, you know, how to get the most
00:10:04.640from people and how to get people to buy things and how to get people engaged. There's heaps of
00:10:08.900amazing theories on it. And one area that we don't really have a lot of information on is things like
00:10:14.640friendship. So we have information on relationships and parenthood and all these different aspects of
00:10:20.740the growth cycle, but we don't have a heap of information on friendship, especially what it
00:10:25.540does to the brain. So that's my science hat on there. I was fascinated with science. Then there's
00:10:30.540like my real life hat like my actual I'm a person I'm human being hat and uh I just I'm 32 you guys
00:10:38.360are really young but I like I'm 32 and so I hit 30 and when you hit 30 it's like a ton of bricks
00:10:46.020smacking you in the face and you're like oh my god I'm 30 and you have these it's kind of cliched
00:10:53.240for a reason you have this existential crisis where you realize who is around me and are these0.61
00:10:59.240people kind people are they are they helping me and supporting me as much as I'm helping and
00:11:03.940supporting them and I had a couple of instances where I realized that you know for myself and for
00:11:10.220other people in my life they were telling me that their friends were letting them down and I was
00:11:14.560experiencing times where I was deeply deeply hurt by the behavior of these people who I had bent over
00:11:21.760backwards for I was like I love these people so much you know can I if they needed something I
00:11:27.180I was like, can I, let me give you the shirt off my back. Let me give you the shirt off my mom's
00:11:31.040back. Like, I'm like, let me help you. But then, you know, when I needed help, I was like,
00:11:37.960like, where, where, where do they all go? Where are they? So it kind of, it kind of bore out of
00:11:43.560that. I was sort of like, you know, we have a sisterhood, we have a brotherhood, like where's
00:11:46.960the friendhood, you know? Then I started writing one day and I didn't even know it was happening.
00:11:52.240And before I knew it, I had a book and I don't even know how it happened. Here we are.
00:11:55.960You were just talking briefly before about your own personal experiences with friendships and I
00:12:00.080think we've all experienced some sort of that to some degree. So why do you think that is that
00:12:06.300friendship breakups aren't spoken about as much as romantic breakups?
00:12:11.620Yeah, that's a great question. It's so common for us to talk about the toxic boyfriend or the toxic
00:12:19.140girlfriend, the crazy ex-girlfriend or the shit boyfriend. That's very in to put our foot down1.00
00:12:25.640and society's gotten more and more woke about things like emotional abuse and manipulation
00:12:31.700and gaslighting because you know like even 50 years ago mental health was really stigmatized
00:12:38.440it still is um but it's less so we're having this social movement towards it's okay to not be okay
00:12:46.180like it's okay day and we have other movements like the no fucks movement by like mark manson0.98
00:12:52.100and Sarah Knight who wrote their books, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. So those social0.96
00:12:57.220movements have started to make it okay to be honest about our mental health. And it's slowly
00:13:02.600seeping into different layers of society over time. So when we moved into personal, it's okay
00:13:07.640to say, I'm not okay. It's okay now to call out relationships in a romantic sense that are not
00:13:12.660okay. Friendship is a really tough one though, because it's kind of on the outer periphery
00:13:18.400of our circle of awareness when it comes to mental health and there's a lot of societal
00:13:24.500norms that are going on that we're not even aware of that have trained us to believe that
00:13:30.160you are never allowed to complain about your friends and that if you have a friend that a
00:13:36.400friend is a friend is a friend no matter what and they should always be a friend and if you
00:13:40.980if you cut a friend out of your life you're a bad person for doing that and there's very little
00:13:46.760acknowledgement of the boundaries in a friendship there's this real mentality in society that
00:13:52.620friendship is altruistic which means that it's like this idea of all give and no take and if
00:13:58.040you were to expect something in return then you're being selfish for expecting something you should
00:14:03.300just give to a friendship and expect nothing back in return you just you're a good person if you
00:14:08.160give give give and you never expect anything back don't do things for friends and expect something
00:14:12.440back. And that's really beautiful. It's very, you know, master-like. That's really beautiful
00:14:19.440of you. But what that invariably results in is that it's actually a reflection of kind
00:14:26.560of core boundaries because you're letting people take and take and take. And friendship
00:14:33.120truly at its core is based on a relationship, which means that there's two people and there's
00:14:39.060a reciprocation going on there. There's a give and a take and a back and a forth. And it's okay
00:14:44.940to expect certain things from your friends. For example, you expect them to behave like a friend.
00:14:52.980So be trusting, be supportive, be affectionate, be respectful. And that kind of flies in the face
00:15:01.980of what most of society tells us which is expect nothing give everything and we affect our tribe
00:15:11.180so everyone here is a friend all of us right now is a friend every person on this planet has a
00:15:16.800friend and is a friend you only have one person you're in a romantic relationship usually you
00:15:21.380only have one person you're in a romantic relationship with but friends we're all friends
00:15:26.400so we're all accountable to this societal norm that you give and you take so people are a bit
00:15:31.860resistant to any kind of new tribe mentality that puts them in the spotlight as well to say
00:15:37.580you are actually also accountable to ensure that you are putting your best into a friendship and
00:15:43.780if you're not putting your best into a friendship then now society is hopefully going to move in a
00:15:48.760direction where we feel confident and able to say to people I expected more from you. Yeah definitely
00:15:55.600so you were saying before that friendship should be you know respectful and should be a give and
00:16:00.360take but what are some signs of a toxic friend and maybe some less obvious ones as well yeah
00:16:08.180that's such a great question doesn't uh but the thing that I think confuses a lot of people about
00:16:13.200toxic friendship is that sometimes the behavior isn't really overt like it doesn't always
00:16:19.000it's not always super clear that that person is perhaps behaving toxically um so you've got your
00:16:25.280really obvious behaviors that like slap you in the face like a wet fish like this person is
00:16:30.780bullying me this person is making derogatory comments to me this person is swearing at me0.95
00:16:35.380this person is putting me down this person's taking my money and not giving it back to me
00:16:38.620you know um but then there are the more subtle behaviors where that person might make a more
00:16:44.480passive aggressive under the radar jab about you or perhaps the way that they look at you or the
00:16:51.720way that their tone and their voice when they speak to you or the subtle variations in their
00:16:57.220behavior depending on who's watching. Those kind of more subtle behaviors can be really difficult
00:17:03.620to pinpoint because they might change depending on what the interaction is. So this interaction,
00:17:10.680you get a really great friend and you're like, oh, they're really nice to me today. And this
00:17:14.300interaction, you get a mean friend. You're like, oh, what happened there? I walked away from that
00:17:18.600feeling really awful for some reason I'm not quite sure why and later you're lying in bed awake at
00:17:23.340night and you're like oh it was because she made that comment again about me not having a job yet
00:17:28.040or oh yeah it was because she made that comment again about how much I ate over the meal oh yeah
00:17:32.800she made that comment again about you know the guys who I've been seeing again so you know those
00:17:38.160subtle those subtle behaviors might escape your attention initially and it's only after on
00:17:43.820reflection that you realize how much that actually hurt you or made you feel less than when you walked
00:17:50.560away from that interaction so I think it's we could we could be here for hours if I wrote a
00:17:55.960list of all the different behaviors that a person could do that would be toxic towards you so I like
00:18:01.140to go with the general rule of thumb is go with your feel go with your feel when you are entering
00:18:06.820the interaction, during the interaction and after the interaction. If you feel worse after the
00:18:13.960interaction and before the interaction, if you feel anxious in the lead up to the interaction
00:18:17.800and if you feel awful during the interaction, these are all signposts that something's not
00:18:22.760right in that relationship and that it could be toxic. That's really great advice and I really
00:18:27.400like that kind of holistic look at interactions as well. So let's say someone has identified that
00:18:34.000yes, I've got a toxic friend that they just don't want around anymore. What is the best way to
00:18:38.420approach a friendship breakup? And also maybe some non-confrontational ways of doing it as well
00:18:43.560without ghosting the other person? Yes, totally. And I do mention that in my book about,
00:18:49.420you know, this is not your hall pass to ghost people. So yeah, really good question, Maggie.
00:18:56.260Okay. So number one, I always say straight off the bat, don't do anything in the heat of the
00:19:02.320moment do not do anything in the heat of the moment that's not the time to break up the time
00:19:07.040when you've had you know your four cocktails down and they've just made another comment that's not
00:19:12.340the time for the breakup don't do it then whatever you do um because that's only gonna it's only
00:19:17.420gonna get you in a place where you're having a little bit of a mud slinging match back and forth0.66
00:19:21.260so um you know we we don't want to get down and dirty in the mud with them we just want to say
00:19:26.940high, as Michelle Obama says, when they go low, you go high. So it's always about nothing in the
00:19:34.200heat of the moment. A friendship breakup is a considered and thought out process, which is why
00:19:38.960I wrote a book about it and not an Instagram post about it. It's a thought out process. So the number
00:19:45.100one thing, golden rule, don't do anything in the heat of the moment. And I will give you a couple
00:19:49.900of two tips on what to do to consider if you need a breakup and then two tips on how to actually do
00:19:55.920the breakup. So my two tips on, you know, when you're considering, do I need the breakup is
00:20:01.580number one, just make sure you've communicated that behavior to your friend or your question
00:20:07.300mark friend. So when we have talk behavior, it's so hard for us to actually call the person out
00:20:13.920on it verbally because we get a bit scared that, you know, it's confronting and, oh, we're going
00:20:18.620to get in a fight with them. And, oh, this is going to be so awkward if I tell them not to do
00:20:22.740that i don't know if i can if i don't know if i can actually verbalize don't do that to me again
00:20:28.140um and and i really go into this in the book and break down those all or nothing mentalities these
00:20:34.220fears that we have that i can't say anything so i won't say anything at all which is which is an
00:20:39.840all or nothing mentality that this idea that if i say something it's going to react in this huge
00:20:45.660blow up this huge i'm going to detonate this bomb of confrontation with this person
00:20:50.140So I say nothing at all. And that's not true. That's actually a myth. You can be assertive0.92
00:20:56.980and set some boundaries and say things really simply. I mean, I literally just put out an app
00:21:03.120on this called Assert Yourself, which is about how to articulate what you need to in the moment.
00:21:09.380So that just means going into it ahead of time, knowing what is the behavior that they're going
00:21:14.000to do? What is the thing that this person always does to me? Is it that they always tell you to
00:21:18.100shut up. Then next time they do it, you prepare on the car ride there. You say to yourself,
00:21:23.320please don't speak to me like that. Please don't speak to me like that again.
00:21:27.260Just that simple. That simple. It's a two-step strategy. Number one, say the behavior they did
00:21:32.880to you and ask them not to do it again. So please don't speak to me like that again.
00:21:37.600Please don't tell me to shut up again. Please don't talk to me like that again. Whatever it
00:21:41.660is the behavior is, you just speak it. And that doesn't mean you have to do it in the moment.
00:21:46.220You might realize later, you know, you didn't realize in the moment, but later you're allowed
00:21:50.980to tell them later. You know, I thought about what happened over the weekend and I remembered
00:21:55.360how you told me to shut up. Please don't speak to me like that again. The second sentence in
00:22:00.100your two sentence strategy is if they do it again, then you say, I've asked you not to do that again
00:22:06.680and you've just done it again. So I'm going to go now because I'm uncomfortable. We can talk about
00:22:12.200this another time okay so that's you enforcing your boundary so you said please don't do x to
00:22:18.020me again and if they do you say you've just done x to me again so i'm going to go now and we can
00:22:23.760talk about this later that's your number one communicate and then number two is the timeline
00:22:30.700the timeline so hopefully uh you are at a point where you might still be able to give this friend
00:22:38.480a little bit of leeway to change their behavior maybe or maybe you're right at your end of your
00:22:45.360tether and you're at your wit's end and you just want to skip to the last step which is fine
00:22:49.240but if you have a little bit of you know patience left in you sometimes they will actually change
00:22:56.280because you've now communicated that behavior to them the beauty of the communication is when
00:23:01.140someone woke you to the behavior that's wrong and when a friend actually tells you hey you've done
00:23:06.800this to me and now you've done it again it makes you go oh my gosh yeah I did do that and I've had
00:23:11.860that happen to me I don't know about you guys you might have had an experience with this as well I've
00:23:15.460had a friend say hey Hans please don't cancel on me last minute because it meant my weekend was
00:23:21.160wasted my Saturday morning was wasted and I went oh my god I've just done that I'll never do it
00:23:26.820again to this person because they told me like I don't know if you guys have experienced that for
00:23:30.680sure I have yeah it kind of it makes you lift your game you go oh my gosh I've just done that I better
00:23:36.320to make sure I never do that again. And good friends will rise or adjust their behavior.
00:23:40.960So you can give them that window of opportunity to change. If you have enough left in the tank,
00:23:45.280it depends how toxic they've been. You might be at the end and there's no more window of
00:23:49.080opportunity left. So the point with the time period is that you must commit to that ahead
00:23:55.820of time. So don't say, I'll give them three weeks and then you give them another three weeks and
00:24:01.760another three weeks and another three weeks. You've got to commit to it ahead of time. It's
00:24:05.860like that you know the crappy boyfriend we we all seem to have had like in our early 20s and we just
00:24:11.500gave them like you know free trial after free trial after free trial and we just dragged on
00:24:17.380forever like we just need to set a date and if it hasn't changed then that's when we might need to
00:24:23.660bite the bullet with actually engaging in the breakup yeah I think it's so important what
00:24:30.220you're saying about setting boundaries around friendships because I know for me that I set a
00:24:35.500lot of boundaries for myself around my relationship and work things but when it comes to friendships
00:24:41.700because I love my friends and really value like relationships I tend to just give people
00:24:47.340second chance after second chance and now at 24 I'm finally being like right this is enough like
00:24:53.460I feel like I'm not getting anything back I know myself and a few other friends have kind of lost
00:24:59.180some friendships over the pandemic people kind of just naturally like leaving a life and we had a
00:25:04.440few questions about it as well. How can you get over friendship breakups when there's no ability
00:25:09.820for closure and there's lots of hurt feelings? Yeah, that's a really good question. COVID's
00:25:17.140brought out a lot of those cracks that were previously there that we could distract ourselves
00:25:23.000with other activities and other distractions. We can't now because it's just in your face.
00:25:28.820There's no hiding it. It's there and there's nothing to distract from it. Firstly, I'll say
00:25:32.940you know you're not alone this is a really tough time and a lot of the we're getting the staff in
00:25:39.440now to say that a huge number of people are experiencing greater mental health issues and
00:25:45.800the people who have been predominantly affected by that are young women and especially young
00:25:49.860women who are experiencing isolation from their family and young women who are isolated from
00:25:53.940their family and also experiencing job losses that that is like the trifecta of of people who
00:25:59.660have been hit the hardest in terms of mental health and COVID. And obviously, in any time of
00:26:05.600dire issues, you're going to rely on your closest peer group. You're going to rely on your family
00:26:12.540and you're going to rely on your peer group. As I was saying before, if there were initial
00:26:16.620cracks in a relationship, under pressure, those cracks are going to become more like gaping holes.
00:26:25.160okay so this is a little bit like you know how sometimes there's that cliched idea that
00:26:30.060we have a broken relationship so maybe if we have a baby the relationship will get better
00:26:35.460it's a little bit like the baby that we thought would make the relationship better and it's not
00:26:40.060making the relationship better if anything it's bringing out those stresses even more so because
00:26:44.860if you couldn't rely on your friends to return your calls and return your messages and include
00:26:49.740you in conversations, then COVID might make it more likely that that person is even more
00:26:55.540going to demonstrate the behaviours of excluding you or being inconsiderate to your feelings
00:27:03.640or perhaps treating you poorly because everyone tends to have a shorter tether or a shorter fuse
00:27:13.520when there's stress involved. So some people might very, very correctly and accurately be
00:27:19.740noticing that there is more pressure. There's a bit of a boiling pot situation going in with
00:27:25.740their friendship groups and people are stressed and nerves afraid and people might be a bit more
00:27:30.340snippy to one another. And that's probably not, it could be that that is not something that's a new
00:27:37.080issue. It might've been something that has been bubbling away for some time.
00:27:40.420So in those situations, it is obviously hard to, you know, end relationships with a person when you are already isolated, if you're already experiencing isolation.
00:27:51.300So what I like to remind people of is that, number one, your brain is not designed to handle heaps and heaps and heaps of friendships, heaps and heaps of relationships.
00:28:02.760They've mapped on, you know, the big parts of our brains, like how big they are and how many friendships you can actually handle.
00:28:09.880and the literature is saying the leading researchers in the area are saying your brain can only really
00:28:15.620handle five very very close relationships and that includes your family as well so one of them might
00:28:21.640be mum one of them might be dad one of them might be a sibling and that means or a child even and
00:28:26.660that means you only got a few spots left there for very close relationships we're not designed to
00:28:32.000have oodles and oodles and oodles of very very close friends we're designed to have a few really
00:28:37.520good friends. And by cutting ties with toxic friends, what you're actually doing is making
00:28:42.500space for some of those good friends to actually come into your life. So you're not constantly
00:28:47.020giving your time, your money, and all your energy to the toxic ones. So take solace in that. You're
00:28:53.480not designed to have hundreds of Facebook friends. As much as social media wants to tell you that,
00:28:59.000you're not designed that way. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.
00:29:03.120The second thing I was going to tell you, in all the studies that we've got on friendship and loneliness, the literature is telling us that you're not alone.
00:29:13.540You know, 75% of the Australian population in the age group of 16 to 24 are reporting that they don't have a close friend they can call on.
00:29:26.500if you're not crazy you're not unlikable you're not a bad person which are all these common
00:29:33.420thoughts that go through our head when we get stuck in a situation like this oh my god I've
00:29:37.580got no friends nobody wants to be my friends I'm going to be that person with no friends so I have
00:29:42.600to stay with this crappy friendship because then I'll have because if I leave them I'll have no
00:29:47.500friends but actually all of us feel that way all of us almost 75% of the population feel that way
00:29:54.580So if we could all just take our blindfolds off for a second and see each other, you see there are hundreds of thousands of other people your age who also want to make new, true friendships.
00:30:07.180So maybe this fear of having no friends is actually keeping us tied to the toxic ones.
00:30:14.160Yeah, and not giving you space to find people you really gel with and who actually bring good things to your life rather than taking all your energy away.
00:30:23.340so we only do have a few minutes left on this timer um but i still would love a quick like
00:30:31.160two minute condensed version of your advice on how to break up with a friend and you know if
00:30:35.600listeners um want the full story they can go buy your book because i'm sure you later in great
00:30:40.720detail thank you maggie i'll send you your check is in the mail um okay uh yes a quick condensed
00:30:49.920version if you have decided that okay I've given them time I've explained what I need
00:30:54.440they haven't changed there's two I think there's two different options you can pull back on the
00:31:00.500relationship I call it the silent slip away not ghosting this is not about ghosting this is about
00:31:06.000matching their effort levels so this is good for people who are going to continue to be in your life
00:31:11.180because maybe you're related to them by blood or maybe they're part of a wider friendship group
00:31:16.060We don't want to burn bridges with people or destroy relationships with people who might be
00:31:22.480on the panel of our next job interview, right? So sometimes it's totally appropriate for you
00:31:27.020just to pull back and to match their effort levels. So when they ask you to come over to
00:31:31.400their health and help move the pool table, you can say very politely, no, thank you. I'm not
00:31:37.280able to do that. Or when they ask you to drive them to the airport, you can say, no, thank you.
00:31:41.520I'm not able to do that. So we're just matching the same level of effort that they're putting in
00:31:46.160for us. So that's the silent slip away, the pulling back of the effort. And that way,
00:31:52.300no conversation required, no formal breakup required. Some friends you can't do that with
00:31:57.940because they will keep asking and asking and asking and pushing and pushing and pushing.
00:32:02.280And you do need to have a more formal conversation. And in those situations, I believe a direct
00:32:09.400message is appropriate and this is where you can you know say to that person hey you know since our
00:32:15.760last catch up I've done some reflecting on our friendship and as life gets busy it's understandable
00:32:20.280for friends to grow apart and this might seem out of the blue but this is something I've been
00:32:24.480noticing for some time that we've grown apart and I've realized I'm not able to keep putting
00:32:29.560the same time and effort into maintaining this friendship I hope you understand and I wish you
00:32:34.480all the best for the future and I believe you can do this in person but I believe this is something
00:32:40.120that's best done in writing so I'm an advocate for texting so I actually think it gives you the
00:32:46.700time to write out what you need and and write it in a respectful manner gives them the privacy of
00:32:52.200receiving it alone digesting it and replying if they choose to and if you feel awkward about
00:32:58.620sending a text I always say tack on the end I'm sorry I've done this over text message my mental
00:33:04.220health meant I wasn't in a place to do face-to-face with you and I hope you understand
00:33:08.500just own it just own it I say own it do what you need to do and if you need to send it over text
00:33:13.820message send it over text message such good modern advice and I think this will really help
00:33:21.380a lot of listeners and communication is key I think in all of that in all of our relationships
00:33:27.800and it's so good that we're finally talking about you know friendships and how like you said
00:33:33.760everyone's a friend so if we get better at it then we're all just going to be better friends
00:33:38.640so exactly it's a friendship revolution where can our listeners find you and buy your book yeah
00:33:44.580sure sure so i'm my handle is at no bull psych as in you know like no bs like no bull psych and
00:33:52.420then you can also get my book at any good bookshop and it's also going to be on audible as well
00:33:56.200amazing thank you so much for joining us today we really appreciate it no worries great to talk to
00:34:02.400you guys. You take care of yourselves and keep safe. Mags, what have you been watching,
00:34:19.820reading, consuming this week? Well, this week, I finally jumped onto this massive podcast bandwagon,
00:34:27.240how to fail with elizabeth day i swear every single podcast i listen to recommends it have0.92
00:34:34.460you listened to this yet yeah i love her she's one of my favorite podcasts and writers damn it
00:34:39.960i'm just so behind um yeah she's like a great british journalist and author and she's got this
00:34:45.860podcast where she talks to like influential people about their failures and it's just such a soothing
00:34:51.220and inspiring listen I really really really like Elizabeth she's very I can't I was trying to think
00:34:57.680of words to describe her and she's like very down to earth and very personable I think um the episode
00:35:03.840I listened to was with Marianne from Normal People Daisy Edgar Jones and she was like fangirling over
00:35:10.500Normal People in that episode and I loved it because that's exactly how I would be so I liked
00:35:15.400how she wasn't afraid to be to be a fan yeah exactly so the episode I want to recommend is
00:35:21.900called how to fail philosophy special because she's just released a book called philosophy
00:35:27.260but anyway she kind of combined some of her favorite interviews into a short podcast and it
00:35:33.600was so good so for instance there's a really funny story that Phoebe Waller-Bridges shares
00:35:39.160and it literally made me laugh out loud and then there's really really really thought-provoking
00:35:44.240and beautiful segments around heartbreak and rethinking how we view our brain. It's something
00:35:49.660I'll definitely re-listen to time and time again. If you want a really good episode, her one in
00:35:55.660season one, I think, or maybe season two with Phoebe Waller-Bridge about how to fail is so
00:36:00.820interesting. And especially for any aspiring actors and playwrights out there, it's really
00:36:06.520good advice. Kind of adding onto your recommendation with a bonus round. Yeah, she's really great. I
00:36:12.800haven't read any of her how to fail books yet but i would love to she's such a great journalist
00:36:17.860and what about you jasmine what else would you like to recommend this week i watched on the
00:36:23.720basis of sex which is the biographical film about the early career of supreme court judge ruth
00:36:30.220bader ginsburg who sadly passed away last month it's directed by mimi leader and stars felicity
00:36:36.320jones as ruth and then army hammer from call me by your name as her husband martin ginsburg it
00:36:43.400starts off set in the 50s when she's first admitted into harvard law and the battle she
00:36:48.540faces while studying so obviously at first there's a lot of gender discrimination at the university
00:36:53.720and then her husband is diagnosed with cancer and they also have like a one-year-old child
00:37:00.300Ruth is looking after the child, looking after her husband, taking his notes, and then doing
00:37:07.080her own classes, going home at night to like work with him on his stuff so that he can