Culture Club - Ladies Of Leisure

00:00:00.000 the oscar snubs we didn't see coming rugby star alona ma shuts down imposter syndrome claims

00:00:13.380 and is the new status symbol doing nothing i'm maggie zow and i'm jasmine wallace and

00:00:19.700 you're listening to culture club where we chat about pop culture current affairs the internet

00:00:24.760 and our lives. Today, we are on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nations.

00:00:33.560 First Nations people have taken care of our lands and waterways for over 60,000 years

00:00:39.340 and have been sharing knowledge and culture through oral history from time immemorial.

00:00:44.960 We would like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and extend this to any Aboriginal or

00:00:50.220 Torres Strait Islander listeners today.

00:00:54.760 how has your weekend been mags oh it's been pretty good it's actually been pretty full on

00:01:00.500 um a fun weekend of going from a few like friend events and like a lunar new year dinner and such

00:01:07.440 um so much so that in the uber yesterday i actually fell asleep a bit which i never do

00:01:13.620 i know a little nap little nap you love your naps i do but i try not to fall asleep in public

00:01:20.260 i feel like that's a good goal well um my little sister katie who famously designed our album art

00:01:29.820 for culture club she loves a public sleep like she'll be sleeping on trains in parks i know

00:01:35.080 what i could never see katie i told you wow i wish i could be like that it's so handy to just

00:01:43.000 power up everywhere i know but what else have you been getting up to this weekend

00:01:48.040 i've had kind of similar weekend like a few little social things here and there um but last night

00:01:55.840 we stayed in and we actually watched the apprentice which is that new movie about

00:02:03.680 donald trump and like how he came to be it's the one with sebastian stan isn't it yes sebastian

00:02:09.720 stan and jeremy strong basically jeremy strong plays this lawyer um called roy con and

00:02:17.720 he basically well the movie says that a lot of like the personality traits that trump has

00:02:25.220 he gleaned from this lawyer man um when trump was really young so it starts off in the 70s

00:02:31.160 like the late 70s and goes into the 80s and it's so good i really enjoyed it um the direction is

00:02:38.980 really great it's by um an iranian danish director um and it almost is like a documentary style

00:02:49.580 of filming it's like handheld um they use film to create it to create like the 70s vibe

00:02:56.740 and i think sebastian stan and jeremy strong deserve all the awards because it was such a

00:03:03.420 great portrayal um and it was really entertaining and yeah there were moments where like Jeremy

00:03:09.560 Strong's performance literally took my breath away so he definitely deserves the Oscar for

00:03:15.780 Best Supporting Actor and on that note the Oscar nominations were announced this week after being

00:03:23.320 pushed back twice due to the LA fires yeah I feel like this was a long time coming because the Oscars

00:03:29.200 take place on march 2nd which is quite soon to be honest and this year it'll be hosted by tv host

00:03:36.280 and comedian conan o'brien and the biggest conversation i've seen about this is the fact

00:03:42.680 that challenges like miss out on a lot of norms yeah so challenges missed out on nominations for

00:03:49.080 best score original screenplay and original song um according to the abc a lot of the

00:03:56.160 well people are hypothesizing that the experts think or the judges think that it was too

00:04:02.880 commercial or too edgy i'm like which one is it is it too commercial or too edgy

00:04:07.460 are they not like polar opposites yeah exactly like it could be either one of these things

00:04:13.620 interesting yeah i was seeing things on twitter being like you know the academy is biphobic

00:04:19.220 that was another line of thinking i also find this stuff interesting because trent resner and

00:04:25.340 Atticus Ross who created the soundtrack and the score for challenges they actually just recently

00:04:30.300 won a golden globe for this original score and I feel like it has really defined 2024 so it's oh

00:04:38.820 yeah a crazy stamp in my opinion and to be honest I didn't know the names of these guys before but

00:04:44.220 they've done a lot and they've been nominated and they've won awards for a lot of their soundtracks

00:04:49.160 so for instance they've done the social network the girl with the dragon tattoo and the animated

00:04:55.720 picture soul as well so like very varied I would say and very incredible to see like somebody

00:05:02.480 like I guess a duo excel in so many different types of movies and types of film scores so I

00:05:10.300 am shocked that they didn't get nominated for the Oscars part of this yes so so talented another

00:05:18.340 big snub was that margaret qualley um didn't get nominated for best supporting actress for her role

00:05:25.120 as sue in the substance and that is another big movie of 2024 her co-star demi moore was nominated

00:05:34.000 however and she also famously won the golden globe um for leading actress yeah well famously

00:05:40.680 when you called margaret qualley marie quilly i feel like i just need to bring that up every

00:05:45.440 single time this is mentioned uh famously yeah she wasn't nominated at all people loved her

00:05:52.020 performance I would say that I prefer like Demi more like if if one of them had to be nominated

00:05:56.660 I would pick Demi but yeah I agree but still fair enough fair enough lots of lots of lots of

00:06:03.220 misses this time people have been saying and John M Chu wasn't nominated for best director despite

00:06:09.800 wicked sweeping up in multiple categories and it's like surely the director is the person who

00:06:16.060 creates the direction of the film funny that so it's like nominated for you know best musical

00:06:22.320 best original score um lots of actresses nominated but the direction isn't but surely all these

00:06:30.120 things tied together equals direction yeah we've spoken about it in previous years how like the

00:06:35.360 Oscars judging categories are like really kind of random and it's just like a random group of people

00:06:40.920 who literally just make it up and they are as many things as most things I guess they're also

00:06:47.160 open to bias and influences and like gifts and things like that so so many things can influence

00:06:54.280 what's nominated and not or not and I don't know we just like don't know their processes

00:06:59.980 and the fact that amelia perez was nominated for like 13 awards and the critical response

00:07:10.120 from like audiences at least has been that it's like a transphobic movie a terrible musical

00:07:16.960 people are like ripping it to shreds online saying that selena gomez's spanish is really

00:07:23.080 really bad despite all this criticism that is kind of making me want to watch it because i'm

00:07:27.900 like how is it so highly nominated yet no one I know has been like that was a great musical or a

00:07:32.760 great movie. Yeah and then the other part that was pulled into this conversation so with Amelia

00:07:39.480 Perez the movie and also The Brutalist both of them used AI in the making of the film which has

00:07:45.800 caused like more conversation. I don't know like most times these award seasons often go over my

00:07:52.920 head because I often don't pay them too much like favor or time but I do feel like in recent years

00:08:00.260 I have been paying more attention like I'm really excited for the Grammys randomly you know so they

00:08:05.780 they do have an impact on what we watch and what we uphold as what's good and stuff so like it is

00:08:12.780 important even if we don't agree with what's being said to like hear and see what's what's the word

00:08:18.640 on the street i guess word on the street aka the academy yes i also really like the conversations

00:08:26.060 and discourse that as fucks every year and the arguments and it makes you like think more

00:08:31.600 critically about the movies that you enjoyed the previous year and what you should maybe watch as

00:08:38.540 well yeah but i also think it's so powerful and strong for people to stand strong in their own

00:08:44.080 conviction of what they like and don't like you know we just released an episode about our best

00:08:49.880 and worst books of last year and I love it when people disagree with us or I love it when you

00:08:55.640 know a good reads rating might be really low and you really enjoyed it or vice versa so this is

00:09:01.320 another kind of play on that. Rugby star Alona Ma has sparked a conversation this week around

00:09:13.920 imposter syndrome in an interview with CNN anchor Christina McFarlane Alona was asked how she

00:09:20.720 overcomes imposter syndrome we will play a clip here how do you overcome imposter syndrome I don't

00:09:28.780 have that really no I don't know what that it's like you don't feel like you deserve it yeah I

00:09:35.820 don't think I have it okay like how is that possible I I feel like imposter syndrome ruins

00:09:40.760 my life sometimes um I feel like I deserve what I've gotten I think that I've worked very hard

00:09:46.600 even in the rugby space like I went and play I've played sports my whole life I went and play rugby

00:09:53.060 at you know South Burlington High School and then I made the late decision to play rugby here and

00:09:57.820 then I transferred here to play rugby and then I do all the work off the field I posted videos

00:10:02.420 consistently from Tokyo till now I posted many videos a day I put myself out there I put my

00:10:08.120 whole personality my whole everything out there so basically you're just saying don't even

00:10:12.760 acknowledge it i just don't think i have that i love it which i think is also like people are

00:10:16.900 told sometimes to feel like they have that imposter syndrome but it's okay to be proud

00:10:21.960 of what you've done it's okay to believe you deserve something because you've put in the

00:10:25.640 word for it so if you hadn't heard of her before alona is a 28 year old olympic rugby player from

00:10:33.280 America. And on top of her sporting achievements, I feel like she has become quite an icon in her

00:10:39.660 own ride, especially at the last Olympics. She was very active on TikTok. And now we're talking

00:10:45.660 about her in a pop culture sense as well. So in my opinion, this was pretty bad journalism

00:10:52.140 from this reporter because just last month, Alona had already shared her take on imposter syndrome,

00:10:59.220 sharing with her tiktok audience to stop asking women how we deal with imposter syndrome alona

00:11:06.560 said i've been asked this a couple of times in interviews and every time i sit back and think

00:11:10.800 did i say i have imposter syndrome so are you saying you automatically assume i must not feel

00:11:16.260 that i'm deserving of where i'm at she also added it's interesting you think they're asking nfl

00:11:22.020 players male politicians if they have imposter syndrome probably not i feel like most people

00:11:28.600 listening to this have heard of the concept of imposter syndrome, but we will explain it

00:11:32.480 regardless. Imposter syndrome is a behavioral health phenomenon described as self-doubt of

00:11:39.180 your intellect, your skills, your accomplishments, and it's often found amongst high-achieving

00:11:45.060 individuals. It was actually first described, according to our research, in 1978 by Suzanne

00:11:51.720 Imes and Pauline Rose Clance as an observation first among successful women and other marginalized

00:11:59.400 groups. Yeah so this concept has been around for almost 50 years which I found quite unexpected to

00:12:07.780 be honest because I feel like it's just been something that we've been talking about more

00:12:11.220 in the last decade or so especially with the rise of social media but this proves that it has been

00:12:17.240 around a lot longer than that. You made a TikTok video in response to this interview and you said

00:12:24.460 that we've quote normalized imposter syndrome too much. Can you expand on this idea? Yeah let's talk

00:12:32.000 about it. I kind of in that video was saying that we automatically assume that women almost not 1.00

00:12:39.580 just have imposter syndrome but should have it to some extent and I just think that does us a

00:12:46.280 disservice like it's not a great assumption to make about people because it automatically

00:12:52.540 assumes that people are like undervaluing their skills and what they do and I feel like it feeds

00:13:00.740 into how we think women should be a lot of the time like they should be meek and overly humble

00:13:07.080 yes how did this interview and conversation make you feel when I saw it on tiktok I immediately

00:13:13.320 reposted it because i was like yes why are we just assuming that every single successful woman 0.94

00:13:19.440 has imposter syndrome and i did empathize with the journalist um but i do think she was projecting

00:13:27.360 on alona she says like um oh my god i feel like imposter syndrome ruins my life and like that's

00:13:33.480 really sad because clearly you're a smart capable woman a journalist with cnn and that seems like

00:13:40.500 something that she has to work through herself why she's projecting it on this star athlete who

00:13:47.060 is creating so much great female representation in sport and a particularly male-dominated sport

00:13:52.880 especially who is very muscular and is showing that like so many body types can be sexy and fit

00:14:01.120 and strong i really appreciated alona's response to it because rather than being like oh i don't

00:14:07.740 know i just like get on with it and i keep achieving or whatever people think women should

00:14:12.280 say or like i'm so grateful for this opportunity alona was like didn't even entertain it she's

00:14:18.320 like no yeah i don't have that but like what is it i don't have that um i'm really proud of where

00:14:24.660 like the work that i've put in i think that's what pissed me off the most i think it's like

00:14:28.940 a very sexist and offensive question now yeah how do you deal with impossible unless someone has

00:14:33.480 specifically said that in the past why we why was she asking that question and just assuming

00:14:40.000 that assumption is what gets me I think it reminded me a lot of the Reese Witherspoon quote

00:14:46.300 that was like have you ever been in a situation and a woman has asked what do we do now I think

00:14:53.280 that really dumbs down women and our capabilities because like you see female characters in movies 0.54

00:15:00.040 all the time turning to the man what do we do now and Rhys was like no women don't like do that

00:15:06.740 do that especially in like situation like emergency situations or whatever and it kind of reminded me

00:15:12.420 that of like assuming that women are just lucky and like we haven't been online or cognizant of

00:15:19.020 like the many years like in Alona's example the 20 years she played sports for and we've just

00:15:25.980 shown up at this interview on CNN and been like oh yeah how did I get here it like makes I think 0.99

00:15:32.400 it makes women seem really ditzy and like not present in their lives and their goals and their 1.00

00:15:37.940 achievement and I also to rant more I also think that overnight success they're like that whole 1.00

00:15:45.640 phrase and idea is also contributing to this because it's like oh my gosh you're such an

00:15:52.000 success you must have imposter syndrome because like clearly you haven't had any thought into

00:15:57.660 how you got here you just got lucky and you showed up does that make sense well you know it kind of

00:16:02.460 does but to be honest if I think about when imposter syndrome kind of makes sense it would

00:16:07.980 be people who truly are overnight successes who let's say haven't put in much time or energy into

00:16:15.400 chasing a career and then literally let's say overnight or in a very short period of time have

00:16:19.960 seen success because they're like wait hang on what did I do to get here same as I don't know 0.99

00:16:24.740 if they feel this but nepo babies perhaps you might feel imposter syndrome if you have had 0.99

00:16:30.700 opportunities come way more easily your way but if someone's actually working hard at something 1.00

00:16:36.320 working at something for a few years or more I mean this should be less of a thing to be honest

00:16:43.680 I used to like struggle a lot more with imposter syndrome but I don't anymore and I do think it's

00:16:49.360 like a time, time and cognizant, like just being more aware of what I do as well that has helped

00:16:55.920 that. What's your relationship with imposter syndrome like now? Similar to Alona, I don't

00:17:02.360 know if I've ever had it. I can't really remember feeling like I didn't belong in a place. I guess

00:17:11.740 the only time I felt like, wow, this is crazy. Do I belong here? Was when we were at the Beyond

00:17:17.640 the valley festival and we got to go to the like vip like house i guess where all the artists and

00:17:25.140 stuff were and we were like hanging out around the pool and there were all these like like dylan

00:17:28.260 alcott was there like all the artists who were performing all hanging out having drinks around

00:17:33.040 this pool and i felt like i think it was more an insecurity though it wasn't like i haven't worked

00:17:38.860 hard enough to deserve to be here it was like i can't believe that i'm here with our little podcast

00:17:45.960 that we created in lockdown it was more an insecurity of like am I cool enough am I pretty

00:17:51.480 enough am I skinny enough like those feelings more so than like I don't deserve to be here

00:17:55.720 because my work isn't good so I think that is different but that's probably like the most an

00:18:01.300 example so now when we have opportunities whether it's like with the podcast or in our careers or

00:18:07.740 whatever I definitely don't think that I don't deserve them because you and I have like we're on

00:18:13.560 year five of doing this podcast still very much like a side project that we are always working on

00:18:21.720 amongst our full-time jobs so I don't think that when we get opportunities I don't think like no

00:18:28.340 we don't deserve to be here which is good yeah I guess yeah and I think I don't know imposter

00:18:33.920 syndrome has become so normalized that we like we talk about it a lot and I would assume that a lot

00:18:39.360 of our listeners do feel like they experience it so it's like how do we like get out of that

00:18:46.940 headspace and I'm trying to figure out like what I would tell people or even like what I'd tell my

00:18:52.020 younger self in a way do you think you struggled with it when you were younger as well yeah no

00:18:56.680 definitely I remember I wrote an article for fashion journal I think about it but it was

00:19:01.200 specifically about being like Asian Australian in the media industry and then struggling with

00:19:06.340 with that because it's like I could count on maybe one hand at that time like people who

00:19:11.680 looked like me who were doing something that I wanted to do I feel like now I kind of shy away

00:19:19.240 from like speaking in that way about it just because I know that there are like actually

00:19:25.240 quite a few like Asian Australians in the media game who I can look up to now and I also know

00:19:31.600 that like in many ways like I am so privileged especially as like an East Asian who's light

00:19:37.380 skin like I'm a definitely more palatable than other minorities so it's like I really like shy

00:19:44.740 away almost like cringe away from this conversation obviously like racial diversity in media is still

00:19:49.460 an ongoing and very important conversation but it's not something I want to like actively

00:19:54.100 contribute to now that aside I think like backing like I don't know I think it is just like a

00:20:01.060 confidence thing you know and I feel like confidence can be quite like a vilified

00:20:05.460 trait to have like it's people don't like it if you say oh no I'm confident in myself or no I like

00:20:12.480 back myself 100% like it's not something that you hear overly or people kind of want to cushion it

00:20:18.560 with oh like I don't like oh like I worked really hard or like oh I know I'm so lucky like what you

00:20:23.600 were saying before yeah but just being able to own what you do more maybe yeah on the flip side

00:20:28.840 of this I think this is something that I experience more and I think maybe it's a symptom of us 0.58

00:20:35.540 normalizing imposter syndrome like you said in your tiktok is I feel when I when someone asks me

00:20:41.120 like about something I've done or opportunity or something I feel like I almost need to fawn and

00:20:46.760 be like and I'm so grateful and I'm so lucky and I've noticed it a lot on tiktok as well with like

00:20:51.200 creators at the moment who are like just breaking in and like it's great to feel gratitude to the

00:20:58.020 opportunities that you're given I'm like a big supporter of gratitude but I think you know for

00:21:05.740 example if people have been asking us about the AO podcast we did I'm like yeah it was really fun

00:21:11.800 really cool like I'm so lucky I'm so grateful because I feel like if I'm like yeah we got

00:21:17.560 asked to do it of course like we're good at our jobs kind of thing I feel like that's coming

00:21:21.240 across as really like ungrateful and boastful one of my fears is like being seen as like

00:21:27.500 conceited or egotistical when it comes to my career sorry getting so vulnerable on the mic

00:21:33.120 now sharing my deepest darkest thoughts um so I find myself cushioning a lot of my achievements

00:21:40.540 with like and I'm just so so grateful for this opportunity I'm so lucky do you find yourself

00:21:47.820 doing that as well yeah and almost like very it's very second nature and it doesn't mean that

00:21:52.900 it's not true like I agree I think yeah gratitude is one of your like highest things that you value

00:21:58.100 I know that like you are a big purveyor of it and I feel like it's filler sometimes we were actually

00:22:04.860 having conversation with a couple of Americans and we were talking about how it's so normalized

00:22:08.620 in Australia to be like hey how you going and then someone's like yeah good you and then you

00:22:12.980 actually ask how are you actually like I think it's just one of these things that we say being

00:22:17.640 like oh look I'm so like so grateful like so lucky to have done this but it can feel a bit

00:22:24.780 empty at times even though it's not but I think it's like expected like we have to say these

00:22:32.380 caveats yeah as women because otherwise if you don't caveat with that then you are seen as

00:22:39.820 conceited up yourself yeah egotistical but I just don't think I think it's a real double standard

00:22:46.600 because i don't think men successful men who are high achieving have those thought patterns i think

00:22:53.500 that they they're just like yeah whatever and that's what i said in my tiktok and real about

00:22:59.000 this topic is men just get to like thunder through the world just doing whatever they want they might

00:23:05.560 not even think of the consequences to other people and they don't soften everything with this like

00:23:14.360 and i'm so lucky and i'm so grateful they just do stuff and achieve stuff and they're like yeah

00:23:19.800 whatever i kind of want to have a little bit more of that like obviously not being conceited but

00:23:25.580 just yeah being more cognizant of it which all relates back i think to imposter syndrome for

00:23:32.420 women and like the assumption every woman has it and every woman is shocked by their achievements

00:23:37.980 and how they got somewhere as if it doesn't take years and years and years of like practice and

00:23:42.620 refining and effort and time and you're right like again no one wants to seem arrogant I think that

00:23:49.040 is a very uh negative trait that people don't want to be associated with and you were talking

00:23:53.920 about before like not seeing um conceited and such like that right but the thing is we also

00:23:59.680 can't control how other people see us and I think people will project onto you whatever they want so

00:24:06.820 even a medium like social media when yeah a lot of people do share like the highlights of their

00:24:12.140 life and stuff whether it be like a pregnancy announcement or a job change or a city change

00:24:18.180 right it could be fully just like a positive thing that you want to put out there or just a

00:24:23.260 bit of news that you want to share and that can be interpreted in a thousand ways and that's not

00:24:29.900 necessarily a negative thing it's just people read into things through their own life experiences

00:24:34.500 and interpretations but it's like you can't control what people think at the end of the day

00:24:38.640 so why not just take control of what you put out there and how you carry yourself that's something

00:24:43.400 that i've really been working on in 2025 and the end of 2024 i feel like on culture club we're not

00:24:50.400 huge like self-help promoters but i have been listening to the mel robbins podcast and i'm

00:24:57.340 getting fed like reels and tiktoks of it and one of mel robbins theory is the let them theory have

00:25:03.340 you heard of it oh my god i love this one this is so good please share with the class i literally

00:25:09.800 think it's changed my life recently if you haven't heard of mel robbins she's an american author

00:25:16.780 podcast host and a former lawyer her podcast literally is called the mel robbins podcast

00:25:22.040 and it has a lot of like self-help um modules how to change your habit she has like this whole

00:25:28.200 morning routine that she recommends to like be productive so a lot of it is like kind of American

00:25:34.840 psychological self-help stuff but one of her most famous theories that she actually just wrote a

00:25:42.220 book about is called the let them theory so the let them theory is basically a guide to stop

00:25:49.680 letting other people's opinions and drama and judgment impact your life so in relation to what

00:25:57.340 Maggie just said if people are going to project onto you that you might be coming across as

00:26:02.960 arrogant if you're just sharing an update or whatever you have to let them her first

00:26:09.560 example of this was like her son was going to prom and they wanted to like before prom they

00:26:15.640 wanted to go to this like particular restaurant and Mel was getting like really like not upset

00:26:20.560 but she was getting really stressed about it like why you're not going to get a reservation

00:26:23.580 and just like her daughter was like just let them let them do what they want to do it's not

00:26:29.440 going to impact you and I think that is really changing my life specifically not to get all

00:26:34.760 self-help on culture club but it is really helping let them let people think what they

00:26:40.780 want about you if you want to put yourself out there people are probably going to talk

00:26:45.860 or share their opinions let them because at the end of the day it's your life and like

00:26:52.480 you have to live with yourself and your choices and you want to live a happy life so let them be

00:26:59.060 upset with you yeah oh my god i need this printed out somewhere i swear to god especially as someone

00:27:04.360 who's like more prone to like controlling thoughts and like ways of being it's such a good reminder

00:27:11.980 and it can go all different ways right like it doesn't have to be about like negative things

00:27:16.780 like let them you know be upset or whatever but it can it can be in any any kind of way so it's

00:27:22.540 such a good reminder that you don't actually have to control everyone around you or like

00:27:30.260 like try control how someone might like feel or whatever yeah I feel like Mel put it much

00:27:38.420 more eloquently than me but I'm just gonna echo her words yeah go listen to we'll link it in the

00:27:43.860 show notes the Mel Roberts podcast um and also she has a few videos of it on her social media

00:27:49.020 there you go self-help with Jazz and Maggie

00:27:51.980 I feel like I have been read to absolute filth by Melbourne-based brand strategy consultant

00:28:04.640 and lecturer Eugene Healy who posted a TikTok about what he deems the new post-luxury status

00:28:11.780 symbol, which is wasteful time. We're going to play like a minute of it now. The ability to sit

00:28:18.640 around with friends wasting time has become a status symbol. This is part two of post-luxury

00:28:23.300 behavioral status symbols. Today, wasteful time. Since the 2010s, we've been living in a culture

00:28:28.280 where self-optimization was aspirational. 5am wake up, cold plunge, journal, bar pilates,

00:28:33.820 grinding. These were all considered high status activities. But what I'm seeing emerge now is a

00:28:38.940 new aspirational leisure class, people whose value isn't tied to what they do but how effortlessly

00:28:43.480 they exist. This stems from cost of living pressures because in a culture where people

00:28:47.060 are having to optimize to the extreme just to keep up, what is a real luxury is to be able to

00:28:51.320 go post-optimization and say, hey, I'm enough as I am. This includes people whose ability to earn

00:28:56.560 a living is directly tied to their ability to sell that vibe, that ease, which is why they

00:29:01.420 always have vague-ass job titles like creative director. They're selling their perspective,

00:29:05.320 not a product time itself has become such a precious commodity so the ultimate luxury is

00:29:10.260 to be wasteful with it so this wasteful time theory isn't exactly new um even in the 16 17

00:29:19.600 1800s wealthy people were the ones who were just like wandering around versailles or like going to

00:29:27.280 the theater they weren't working they could have that free time to do whatever they want but it

00:29:32.400 feels like this is like the new era of that in the 2020s. Well, I actually had never heard the

00:29:38.860 phrase like leisure class before. And it's funny, sometimes when you Google, it comes up with like

00:29:43.720 your local like swim center and they're like leisure activities. But a leisure class is

00:29:50.480 essentially what you were saying. So members of the upper class who are exempt from productive

00:29:56.080 work. I was reading Wikipedia articles about this and they also talked about a theory called

00:30:04.060 pecuniary superiority, which essentially means that the leisure class demonstrates their wealth

00:30:10.460 from not working, which honestly makes a lot of sense. These are simple concepts that have

00:30:17.020 been around for a long time that definitely apply to present day, but I kind of love having

00:30:23.000 the correct terms and theories to talk about them. So the term leisure class was first attributed

00:30:30.220 to Thornston Veblen in 1899, who wrote a book called The Theory of the Leisure Class,

00:30:37.880 An Economic Study of Institutions. So in the book, Veblen discusses how wealthy people

00:30:44.260 have employed themselves in the economically unproductive practices of conspicuous consumption,

00:30:51.300 which is the when you buy and use goods of the higher quality higher price or in more quantity

00:30:59.260 than you need which we still see today and conspicuous leisure which is when you engage

00:31:05.660 in non-work activities to display your social status so in essence these are activities that

00:31:11.620 don't contribute to the economy or to like material production of useful goods and services

00:31:17.500 that we need as a functioning society he also defines leisure as the non-productive consumption

00:31:24.580 of time I feel like you and Veblen would be besties lol I was like yeah so true bestie like I do love

00:31:35.260 this you've been a big proponent of this idea for a few years now and just last week you actually

00:31:46.400 made an Instagram post talking about like the pressure around the new year and to achieve

00:31:52.540 and how you're actually feeling really content at the moment and not driven by career ambition

00:31:58.560 money needing more more more more more and like that's how you that's like one of your ethics

00:32:04.820 or values through which you live your life can you please share more on this idea yeah and what

00:32:11.920 I find intimidating to talk about a bit because I hadn't seen this video you sent this through the

00:32:17.060 one that Eugene made and I was like oh my god like how am I so silly like I didn't even make

00:32:21.220 these links I'm like all right like yeah it is a really privileged take that I am taking and in a

00:32:27.280 way I didn't think it was because I'm like what I'm kind of encouraging or what I'm encouraging

00:32:32.000 myself is like slow slow full and mindful living slow full that's not a word slow and mindful

00:32:37.900 living, right? Which is just going back to the basics and enjoying everyday life and taking my

00:32:43.840 time with meaningless tasks or what most people would consider meaningless in terms of like

00:32:50.460 cooking a really nice lunch or going for a long walk, right? But in essence, these are very

00:32:57.380 privileged things and this can only happen because I do spend less time working. For those who don't

00:33:02.560 know, I went freelance at the Sutter last year, but for the two years before that, I was working

00:33:07.100 four day work week so it's like I have prioritized empty time if you want to call it that or like

00:33:14.380 free time for me to schedule my own things in um but that of course is not what's the norm

00:33:22.280 I do remember we had this conversation on the podcast once and we had kind of different opinions

00:33:27.760 of it because I did I think I did say like that would be so nice but like I need a hustle right

00:33:32.280 now like i want to be able to have more time to like go on long walks than cook but like in my

00:33:37.580 20s and 30s i plan to hustle and work really hard to earn money so that i can like have a retirement

00:33:43.340 which isn't even like a promised thing anymore so yeah i really appreciate your thinking on this

00:33:49.600 and how you don't feel like you need more and more and more and more which is like a symptom of

00:33:54.480 a capitalist society that we are all indoctrinated into as children um i feel like you are really

00:34:01.020 centred in yourself of like the life that you want to live and it seemed like a lot of people

00:34:05.360 resonated with your post and um what you were saying and on eugene's tiktok so many of the

00:34:14.920 comments were like wait so you mean europeans or like unemployed and europeans um because i do

00:34:21.880 think this is symptomatic of western culture you see this a lot more and i don't know when you

00:34:28.740 visit Europe like if you also pick up on like wow like people are like chilling at 2 p.m or even 0.89

00:34:35.140 I mean this isn't the best example because like in China people work and study really hard but 0.97

00:34:41.960 people go home for lunch like you go home and you like have lunch at home and then you often go back

00:34:47.200 to school or work or wherever so it's like this is not a global phenomenon but I think it's more

00:34:55.320 seen in maybe yeah western white countries and it's also like wealthy people like um trust fund

00:35:03.500 kids or whoever they have that space and the time to have like three months off over summer

00:35:08.940 they say like you can always tell like someone is wealthy when they like say like what are you

00:35:13.980 doing this summer like it's like a period of their life where they can really just like do whatever

00:35:18.260 they want and or like winter let's go skiing in aspen or whatever whereas people who work are

00:35:23.320 like well in Australia it's like I have two weeks off over Christmas and then I'm going back to work

00:35:28.700 in January while all the wealthy people are still down at Sorrento like at their holiday home

00:35:32.440 having the spare time so yeah it's like not a new concept but I do think that it is an aspiration

00:35:40.940 to have so much free time and I know that it's something that when I think of my like dream

00:35:45.980 future I am I'm not like in an office as like a CEO or whatever I'm in my own home in my own space

00:35:55.580 spending time with my friends and family not actually like on the clock working so yeah it

00:36:03.080 does feel like in the 2020s that is the new aspiration whereas like maybe previously in

00:36:09.280 like the 80s 90s 2000s it was more like how many material goods do you have and yeah just 1.00

00:36:15.900 I guess general girl boss culture of wanting to be really high up in a company and like building

00:36:20.880 your empire etc like I do think a lot of people still aspire to that but this undercurrent of

00:36:27.980 of I guess oh you know what this actually reminds me of actually um not to cut myself off you know

00:36:34.120 that trend on TikTok which is like oh how do they I don't know the wording but it's talking about

00:36:38.600 like oh they're rich but not money rich but like family rich or like you know life rich I don't

00:36:44.060 know what the wording is can you do you know how to describe it better do you mean like when people

00:36:48.360 post videos of like their nice apartment and their toddler and it's like this is the real rich is

00:36:54.440 that what you mean yeah they're like this is my definition of rich yeah oftentimes yeah they are

00:36:59.340 living in nice houses so they actually are money rich too but they mean like this is what wealth

00:37:03.720 is to me like being with family and spending time together so we are seeing more conversations

00:37:09.580 around that. I will also say something that I don't like about what Eugene and Forstein have

00:37:16.620 both said is that this like packaging of wasteful time is something I don't like. I don't like the

00:37:23.980 term wasteful. I don't think it's wasteful time if you're not contributing to the economy. And

00:37:29.420 Forstein also says, you know, non-productive, like productive, I think should be more subjective.

00:37:35.160 and I don't think productive has to equate to monetary gains or like work related as well.

00:37:43.160 So I still think this is clouded in a bit of judgment, even though, yeah, we're talking about

00:37:51.540 people who are more privileged and wealthy. I'm not sure about that wording.

00:37:57.480 This was actually one of our inns for 2025 that we spoke about at the Oz Open.

00:38:05.160 And you said spending time at your friend's house doing nothing isn't in.

00:38:10.780 Yeah.

00:38:11.120 I feel like that relates to this, right?

00:38:12.820 Like it is a privilege and something to aspire to, to be able to be like, hey, Jazz, come

00:38:19.100 over and just like hang out because we have nothing else to do.

00:38:21.640 We don't need to like record a podcast or interview people for articles or whatever.

00:38:26.560 We can just like hang out in each other's space and drink tea.

00:38:30.180 Yeah.

00:38:30.540 that does feel like because if you are working to pay the mortgage and the rent like you might

00:38:37.000 have to work on weekends so you don't have time to waste at your friend's house I think about this

00:38:42.300 a lot as well like not having dependents to take care of right now I'll catch myself in moments

00:38:49.620 where I like have time to myself or have a few hours being like oh like I've got nothing planned

00:38:53.380 I can do whatever I'm like oh my god like if I had kids this would not be a reality like and I

00:38:59.880 think that time is so precious it is for everybody and i i get a bit freaked out when i catch myself

00:39:07.420 in those moments me too oh my gosh when i like i'm drinking coffee reading my book at like 10 a.m on

00:39:14.420 a sunday i'm like wow this is so luxurious and like if i have kids i won't be able to do this

00:39:20.640 for so many years scary scary stuff yeah i guess what i take from this whole conversation is that

00:39:26.540 yes, it is a privilege and luxury to be able to spend our time how we want. But, and often when

00:39:32.200 we are talking about this, we are literally talking about the simple pleasures of like

00:39:36.480 enjoying your cup of coffee, going on walks, et cetera. At the same time, I don't think this

00:39:42.100 should be a luxury for people. And I think this should be almost standard. And I wish that

00:39:48.120 capitalism would allow this to be. So it's like, why not? I would love to advocate. I would hope

00:39:54.920 that we can advocate this and that this can be more of a norm for people because it sucks that

00:40:00.260 you know most people spend most of their time most of their waking hours at a job and the fact

00:40:06.760 that sitting down for 15 minutes to drink a coffee is considered a luxury like that's dystopia yeah

00:40:12.740 100 it's now time for recommendations where we share something that we've loved watching reading

00:40:23.940 or listening to jazz what do you have for us this week on thursday evening i was lucky enough to

00:40:32.020 attend the preview of baby girl which is the new a24 movie starring nicole kidman and harris

00:40:39.720 dickinson you were also invited but you couldn't make it so i'm here to tell you about it please

00:40:45.580 do so the rough synopsis is that a high-powered ceo aka played by nicole kidman put her career 0.92

00:40:53.620 and her family on the line when she begins a torrid affair with her much younger intern this

00:40:59.920 is very much an a24 movie it's a vibes movie it has that you know rough through line it has strong

00:41:07.380 themes of female sexuality power capitalism new york is the character but a lot of the scenes

00:41:16.900 are very like vibes if that makes sense i enjoyed it i gave it three and a half stars on my

00:41:26.060 instagram story about it but i do think it's one of those movies that one you watch it once and

00:41:31.060 you won't need to watch it for a long time it's not like for me i don't know challenges or book

00:41:35.880 smart where i was like that was so good i want to go back and see it like i pay money to go back to

00:41:39.160 the cinema and watch it again or can't wait for it to be out on streaming it's one of those movies

00:41:42.800 it's like that was a cool experience I enjoyed the story I felt really immersed in it um but I'm

00:41:48.600 happy to give it some space as I said it explores female sexuality and desire and there's already

00:41:55.540 been some interesting discourse around it I saw one tweet or like a sub tweet where someone had

00:42:03.240 like posted a picture like a screenshot from the movie where Nicole Kidman is like on her hands and

00:42:08.360 knees and harris is sitting on the bed and someone commented bitch get up ew so then someone retweets

00:42:17.300 gotta laugh at how the movie was about exploring women's shame and the quotes are like this is so 0.97

00:42:22.660 embarrassing there are moments that are very much like wow this is a lot um there are a lot of sex

00:42:30.600 scenes and a lot of lingering scenes that can make you feel like maybe a little bit embarrassed or 1.00

00:42:37.580 like a little bit like this is a lot but I think that women's sexuality in that way of like being

00:42:46.580 dominated or being told what to do isn't explored much and especially for older women um Nicole 1.00

00:42:55.100 plays her age probably she has like teenage like 17 year old 16 year old daughters so she must be

00:43:02.940 in her 50s the character so I think that isn't explored much I think age gaps in couples are

00:43:09.740 explored a lot when the man is a lot older not the woman so yes I really liked it I ran into

00:43:15.740 the fashion journal girlies after the movie we were all there together and we did say that it

00:43:21.680 felt like Nicole Kidman was playing herself um you know sometimes when you see a really famous

00:43:28.060 actress or actor and you're like i know that i am watching nicole kidman on screen right now

00:43:33.600 rather than getting lost in the character so that was kind of my only like critique of it um but

00:43:40.260 aside from that i thought it was really good if you want to see it for yourself we are actually

00:43:45.580 throwing a giveaway on the culture club instagram there's two days left to enter and all you have

00:43:51.500 to do is follow culture club and then tag a friend and you'll be in with a chance to win

00:43:56.120 one of 10 double passes and yes we're doing a giveaway but we did not have to recommend this

00:44:01.900 movie at all on the podcast i'm doing it because i enjoyed it and i think it's going to be a really

00:44:07.400 big movie of the year so there you go that's my rec i just keep picturing that like film still

00:44:14.280 where she's when nicole kidman has like milk on her other lip yeah yeah that gives me the ick but

00:44:20.560 that's okay doesn't it remember you remember the milk ad featuring delta goodrum and it's like so

00:44:27.160 good milk and it's oh yeah with her milk upper lip so yeah that's what i think about i don't

00:44:34.720 think you will when you're actually watching the movie because it's very it's different

00:44:39.140 it's different mags what are you recommending for us this week i've got another new release

00:44:46.340 movie that i'm recommending and that is paddington in peru this is the third installment of the

00:44:53.840 animated series and you're like laughing at me right now look i love paddington as much as the

00:45:00.040 next girl but your recommendation of the week it must be really good yeah hun it is i've watched

00:45:05.200 like six movies already like this this month and i was like no this is a standout okay so

00:45:09.500 number one let me just check have you watched one and two or yeah yeah okay interesting so the thing

00:45:15.600 Yes, guys. I love Paddington. I only watched all the movies in the space of like

00:45:21.540 last three or four months, I will say. So I'm pretty new to Paddington.

00:45:26.160 To the Paddington best cinematic universe.

00:45:29.220 Universe. Yep. Well, yes. And as a quick synopsis for this one, and by the way,

00:45:34.920 you don't actually have to see the first two. My little sister didn't. She just watched this one.

00:45:38.880 Anyway, but this one's about how Paddington discovers that his beloved aunt has gone missing

00:45:46.540 from the home for retired bears in Peru.

00:45:49.760 So him and his human family head to Peru to find her and mysteries come about.

00:45:58.080 That's all I'll say. 0.99

00:45:59.360 I don't think I'm doing a good job of selling this.

00:46:01.640 What I do want to say is that I loved Paddington 1, right?

00:46:06.760 The original movie I think is amazing.

00:46:08.540 no you won't be laughing after this next sentence it's an immigrant story it is about hardship it

00:46:14.200 is about identity and fitting into a new space while keeping who you are and I was like wow that's

00:46:20.440 so good no but and then I have to I have to say this people love Paddington 2 it is way overrated

00:46:27.760 overhyped I don't like it that much I think it falls into tropes of animated movies and like

00:46:34.160 the narrative is nothing new they just had Hugh Grant and wanted him to play a villain and went

00:46:38.940 about it I think in an unoriginal way okay so yeah I spoke my truth and number one was really

00:46:45.200 funny number two wasn't now for my final conclusion number three gets to the heart of

00:46:52.520 why Paddington is an incredible franchise it was so funny it was heartwarming I was crying

00:46:59.960 in the theaters right and it was it was so beautiful the themes that he explores

00:47:06.260 are just heartwarming and yeah it's an immigrant story babe so if you don't like it you're racist

00:47:11.860 no I love Paddington I always cry in the movies but I just find that like this review is so

00:47:19.580 amazing it's it's up there it's up there for me like I just I really like it so I back this a

00:47:29.440 hundred percent I will go watch it now thank you not right now thank you but I will watch it at

00:47:35.220 something I love Paddington and I yeah he gets me every time um loved Hugh Grant as a villain

00:47:41.160 but um I just I didn't expect this as a recommendation but yeah wow glowing review

00:47:48.280 so good thank you for sharing the class of course my pleasure I'm like always waiting

00:47:54.520 for a chance to speak about Paddington so thank you and thank you dear listeners for staying with

00:48:02.540 us for another episode of Culture Club you can find us on Instagram and TikTok in the meantime

00:48:08.220 you can even leave comments on Spotify in terms of what you thought about the episode we'd love

00:48:14.260 to read them and we will be back with you very soon talk to you later bye

Culture Club - January 27, 2025

Ladies Of Leisure

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