Culture Club - Ladiesssss | The Good Janets

00:00:00.000 Wicked lands in Oz, a Dolly Alderton show sparks gender discourse, and how fashion predicted

00:00:12.940 a Republican win.

00:00:14.680 I'm Maggie Zhao.

00:00:15.840 And I'm Jasmine Wallace.

00:00:17.320 And you're listening to Culture Club, where we chat about pop culture, current affairs,

00:00:21.820 the internet, and our lives.

00:00:23.580 today's episode of culture club is sponsored by scarlet the australian brand redefining period care

00:00:33.680 today we are on the lands of the wawandri woiwurrung people of the kulin nations first

00:00:40.320 nations people have taken care of our lands and waterways for over 60 000 years and have

00:00:46.060 been sharing knowledge and culture through oral history from time immemorial we would like to pay

00:00:51.600 our respects to elders past and present and extend this to any aboriginal or torres strait islander

00:00:57.300 listeners today it's officially like fully the end of november now i don't want to be like time

00:01:07.260 has moved so fast this year but he has hasn't a jazz no it really really has and it's stressing

00:01:14.740 me out because not to make every conversation about this but i'm getting married next year

00:01:20.000 you'll save the date just arrived and it's making me realize how fast time is going to go until

00:01:27.840 that point because that's in one year and it feels like I just got engaged and yeah so I

00:01:34.480 totally agree with you I feel like this year has gone faster than normal but I guess we say that

00:01:39.900 every year I know just getting older is it just because like we live in such fast-paced world

00:01:44.760 I don't know all of the above but this year has felt especially fast but my question to you is

00:01:51.260 are you and Laurie gonna have like a little Christmas tree in your apartment like what's

00:01:56.120 the vibe honestly I don't think we will because we're going to Brisbane for Christmas and I'll

00:02:03.600 be away from like the 20th um maybe I'll get some little Christmas decorations for our kind

00:02:11.140 of like dresser but a whole christmas tree even a little one given we're saving money as well for

00:02:16.960 the wedding i just feel like buying another thing isn't priority right now um but what about you

00:02:23.580 you and tom are in your own place for the first time yeah and he doesn't celebrate christmas but

00:02:29.760 it's open to some decorations i think what i want to do is maybe just like some fairy lights

00:02:35.000 like awesome like ribbon kind of like read yeah things that I can keep potentially um tinsel

00:02:41.920 because I like that but we will see um I'm kind of excited to get into the Christmas spirit this

00:02:47.540 is like the first week where people being like and if I don't see you Merry Christmas and that

00:02:51.340 kind of like gave me a jump scare but I kind of also love it yeah it's fun I started listening

00:02:58.040 to Christmas music in like the first couple days of um November this year and I've never done that

00:03:03.240 normally I'm such like a December person um for Christmas music but I listen to like the

00:03:09.560 Sabrina Carpenter EP um and then of course like Last Christmas by Wham it just makes me so happy 0.95

00:03:16.320 and I think it was in the lead-up to the US election and I was just like everything sucks

00:03:21.180 but like we're so close to Christmas so if things bring you joy you should do them right now

00:03:26.160 not delay and to be honest last night we were very lucky and we got to see the

00:03:31.500 melbourne premiere of wicked which to be honest feels festive it does very like glitter pink and

00:03:39.220 green red and green is christmas obviously so it did feel christmas aligned adjacent uh christmas

00:03:46.420 adjacent oh my gosh i i want to say so much about that movie but we are under an embargo for like

00:03:53.400 two more days but all i will say is like go and see it because it exceeded my expectations so much

00:04:00.940 i love that and again we won't say too much but jazz you hadn't actually seen the theater

00:04:05.560 production so you actually didn't know about the narrative and i'm so glad that it um i personally

00:04:11.280 think yeah if you haven't seen the musical it would be such a stellar movie to still watch like

00:04:15.740 i think it does musical justice yeah i'd never seen it's i've been on my list to see and i know

00:04:21.080 it was just in melbourne but just one of those things passes you by so i all i knew was that it

00:04:26.360 was a prequel to the wizard of oz and um i knew a couple of the songs like literally two songs

00:04:32.140 oh also question oh actually maybe this will spoil the embargo wait just try it okay

00:04:38.060 at the very start yeah they're like the wicked witch is dead yes okay wait and just so you'll

00:04:48.580 feel safer about not breaking the embargo uh this is the same in the musical like yeah

00:04:54.160 stage production so you're a question about that yes the question about the musical is at the start

00:05:00.140 they're all like all the munchkins like the wicked witch is dead um that's because dorothy killed her

00:05:05.840 right correct that's what happens at the end of the wizard of oz yeah okay it wasn't until i got 0.97

00:05:11.660 home last night and then i was thinking about the movie and then i was like because they were like

00:05:15.760 a female child has like killed the witch and then i was like oh my god that's dorothy duh

00:05:20.300 i will say yeah in the musical they made it like much more obvious i feel but this one was kind of

00:05:26.160 dark and kind of like yeah but yeah i'm so glad you enjoyed it and like a lot of people got

00:05:32.100 dressed up last night and it was nice to be um surrounded by that it was a bit overwhelming for

00:05:36.920 me but anyway it was very nice yes and we had the cutest moment because you were in green and i was

00:05:42.600 in pink and like the stairs at the premiere they had like kind of two staircases going up one carpet

00:05:48.660 was pink one couple was green and we were like oh choose your own adventure I went up the pink

00:05:52.660 obviously and we like met at the top of the stairs it's like a movie moment me on the pink side you

00:05:59.520 on the green side so cute and I was shocked like you saw my face I was like oh my god like I didn't

00:06:03.980 expect I think you thought I was right behind you yeah I did and I was like I'm going up the pink

00:06:09.200 stairs that was sweet also before we get into the episode I want to quickly touch on something

00:06:14.520 um you on friday night you went to a naked dinner party i did i did i did um so this was a wild

00:06:27.280 experience but one i'm so grateful i did so it was facilitated by a melbourne sexual wellness brand

00:06:33.900 um i can't pronounce his name right but like bruka so that's b-r-u-x-a um and it was in

00:06:40.800 warrandyte and there was about like a dozen women in this space and to be honest it was

00:06:47.280 a lovely beautiful night like i was nervous like on the car ride there i had to do like breathing

00:06:52.740 exercises and then i literally like snapped because i was tired but i needed to like calm

00:06:57.340 myself down he napped in the car yeah my parents drove me so okay that's not in an uber no no i

00:07:04.900 wouldn't do that um but it was actually so beautiful like that's like the takeaway word

00:07:10.140 like beautiful and magical just come to mind like it was really like felt really sacred and

00:07:14.680 really special um i am writing a piece up about it for fashion journal it might be live by the time

00:07:21.640 um listeners hear this just because i've already written it but um yeah keep an eye out

00:07:27.420 okay we'll share it on culture club as well for anyone who wants to see it here on the stories

00:07:33.720 um and so was it women only it was the ticketing um because it was a ticketed event uh it did

00:07:40.900 specify that women and non-binary people were allowed but um in the end it was just um people

00:07:46.500 who identified as women okay because when you're like i'm going to naked dinner party i was thinking

00:07:51.340 like men and women like oh yeah nudist colony vibes like so 70s i'm not there yet different

00:07:58.800 what the hell happened at dolly alderton's melbourne show and why is everyone disappointed

00:08:11.880 with host hugh van kylenberg this is kind of the biggest like local news in our circles this past

00:08:19.780 week and i will say jazz it's like such a melding of a lot of our interests we love dolly alderton

00:08:25.200 we are podcasters um we love to hear discussions about feminism and we are in Melbourne so we

00:08:33.980 thought that we had to talk about this one so Dolly Alderton is a British writer and former

00:08:39.580 podcaster her most well-known book is Everything I Know About Love which also got made into a tv

00:08:45.140 show and she's since written two fiction works one titled Ghosts and another titled Good Material

00:08:51.840 which came out this year she is based in London she never really gets to come out to speaking

00:08:58.980 events here and so when it was announced that Dolly was touring Australia to promote good

00:09:04.660 material but also just for us to get to experience her live um obviously her demographic which is

00:09:12.380 mostly young women in their 20s and 30s we were obviously I'm going to say we because I'm part of

00:09:20.300 that demographic we were obviously quite excited in Melbourne she is clearly extremely extremely

00:09:26.280 popular because there was one date booked for Hamer Hall on the Thursday and then they added

00:09:31.480 a second date the night before on Wednesday um which Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews from

00:09:36.840 Shameless Podcast hosted and that was in St Kilda so the Thursday night show let's talk about it

00:09:43.240 because it like I started seeing things on my stories and then friends like people I know were

00:09:49.280 posting about it and I was like oh my god what is going down I literally posted my close friend's

00:09:53.760 story like are you guys seeing this like the dolly show like oh my gosh so awkward and then the next

00:10:00.260 day and the days like you know over the weekend there's been more discourse about it and for some

00:10:07.200 other background Hugh is one of the hosts of the Imperfects podcast he also is a founder of the

00:10:15.600 Resilience Project and his work mainly touches on themes of healthy masculinity, vulnerability and

00:10:22.440 motivational speaking. For context as well, I've actually listened to the podcast quite a bit. I

00:10:29.720 dip in and out of episodes of guests that I'm interested in. So I have been familiar with his

00:10:35.620 work as well. But it seems from the commentary that a lot of the audience weren't familiar with

00:10:44.040 him. And a lot of people were like, who is this man? So I guess the drama, if you hadn't heard

00:10:49.440 anything about this, you're like, what is going on? Drama was that people felt that Hugh quote

00:10:55.700 unquote hijacked the conversation with Dolly and weren't asking Dolly enough questions,

00:11:02.360 was going on too many tangents, telling too many anecdotes and kind of allegedly not reading the

00:11:10.460 room. One attendee, Jasmine Ecott, took to TikTok to share her frustration and that has now been

00:11:16.640 viewed like a quarter of a million times at the time of recording. Jasmine said he talked about

00:11:21.820 himself pretty much the whole time. We got maybe a couple of questions from Dolly. He decided to

00:11:26.600 tell us two ghost stories for some reason, told us all about his all-male group chat called Dads 0.86

00:11:33.000 and Beers and Stuff. And then just close to the halfway point of the evening, people in the

00:11:40.020 audience actually began to heckle Hugh and said let her like let Dolly speak stop asking questions 0.99

00:11:46.280 about men we weren't there but let's play a clip from Culture Club listener Ashley who was

00:11:52.980 I feel like I'm going to add to the kind of universal sentiment that was what was that

00:11:59.040 it was such a shocking choice of interviewer and I just feel like I have missed out on some

00:12:07.640 key Dolly wisdom because it got hijacked by this interviewer. I have never been a part of an

00:12:16.180 audience that has literally booed and heckled someone to A, shut up and B, ask the person a

00:12:25.780 question. I did like recoil in my seat when that person yelled out at the interviewer. But at the

00:12:34.300 same time I was also agreeing in my head I guess a really horrible experience to get that feedback

00:12:40.740 but far out it was not a not a good interview at all um Dolly handled it like an angel if she

00:12:50.120 wasn't enjoying it you couldn't tell at all um she was so professional and she really kept the

00:12:56.360 ball going I think she asked more questions than the interviewer did thank you Ashley for sending

00:13:02.560 that in. It's so nice to have a listener voice in our pod. That was actually the first time we've

00:13:07.800 done that. So let us know if you want us to do more of that and we're happy to oblige.

00:13:13.780 We also had a few listeners DM us or email us about their experiences as well. And it was very

00:13:21.060 interesting because while there was a general consensus about being disappointed in the night,

00:13:27.240 people also did have varying perspectives especially about the piling on of you so one

00:13:34.800 listener who we're going to call maddie that's not their real name so maddie mentioned that

00:13:39.760 she likes you and regularly listens to the imperfect so she thought that it couldn't be too

00:13:44.380 bad quote i should preface this by saying i respect the work he does although last night

00:13:49.440 was a perfect example of a man taking up space that was not his and subsequently i don't think

00:13:55.300 i'll be giving the man any more airtime in my life even through podcast form so maddie's experience

00:14:01.940 of the night is that um he started off okay asked for a few questions there was a bit of banter back

00:14:08.940 and forth and he clearly seemed nervous but then it felt that he had gotten quote so comfortable

00:14:15.620 with dolly he forgot what he was there to do and like the roles had been completely reversed

00:14:20.080 they also say by halftime everyone was turning to strangers in front and behind them in

00:14:25.140 absolute fury one group of four women said to maddie and their friends we're leaving we'd rather

00:14:31.840 go have a wine and chat to each other than listen to him derail the whole thing maddie also says

00:14:36.940 the second half got slightly better after he started a story about something totally uninteresting

00:14:42.800 though the entire crowd sighed this is like nightmare fuel for like people who have to present

00:14:50.180 on stage to be honest or like people public facing oh my gosh someone in the front screen 0.98

00:14:55.220 asked her a question as you mentioned at the top and interestingly maddie said the gorgeous dolly

00:15:00.180 asked us kindly to ladies keep it classy but it was a tone that suggested she was trying to mediate

00:15:07.040 the situation oh maddie said overall i'm just so disappointed but honestly not surprised dolly did

00:15:14.100 mention this was the first time a straight man had interviewed her and i won't be shocked if it's the

00:15:19.180 last she was hilarious articulate and everything I hoped she'd be but of course it was all

00:15:24.840 overshadowed by a man who couldn't figure out when to shut up I love hearing the recount of 0.98

00:15:30.660 the night from various people one of my favorite points was yeah Dolly kind of raising her like

00:15:36.320 eyebrows you kind of know her posture ladies like ladies keep it classy um like scolding

00:15:43.980 scolding the audience like they're school children um but i think that this frustration

00:15:50.580 was so palpable for so many people um talking to a few of my friends like they paid 140 dollars

00:15:56.700 a ticket to be there literally and like one person who was in the news is a woman who flew

00:16:03.920 from adelaide to see dolly in melbourne so flats accommodation plus playing for the ticket plus

00:16:11.100 food plus and then half the time you're hearing about this man who you might not know at all you

00:16:17.980 might not care about his stories like that's not your job as a host your job is to really direct

00:16:23.940 it back on um zara and michelle someone was telling me that like every time dolly asked

00:16:30.740 them a question they would really quickly be able to like turn it back around to her which is like

00:16:35.880 your job that's yeah literally part of the job also allegedly allegedly someone was saying to

00:16:42.260 me that Hugh admitted to have not like reading her books yeah that I don't want to say that as

00:16:49.380 like truth because it was like someone told it to me but I think what this conversation and like 0.98

00:16:56.620 event is bringing up for me and I said this to you in a meeting the other day women have to be

00:17:02.360 exceptional at their jobs to be taken seriously and men just get to like rock up in a t-shirt and 0.99

00:17:11.260 jeans and be themselves and you know kind of just wing it because they've always gotten away with

00:17:19.640 winging it in their careers and their lives and like I'm not that familiar with Hugh and his work

00:17:24.600 and I'm sure he's a lovely person and I'm sure he didn't mean to do what like what happened

00:17:32.340 but I think it's a fascinating look and why we want to talk about in the podcast not to add to

00:17:38.320 the pylon but to be like zoom it out as like a bigger conversation around gender and career and

00:17:46.020 um how even and it reminds me a lot of the Saoirse Ronan Paul Mescal on the Graham Norton show

00:17:51.520 situation where it's like these men who yes they're straight white um cis men but they are

00:17:59.860 considered allies like they really try to relate to the female experience and we see them as like

00:18:06.100 you know trying to help women but at the end of the day patriarchy is so ingrained into our society

00:18:13.360 and into our boys and men that they can't even see like when they're doing something that is

00:18:20.020 essentially sexist or rude and I think a lot of the with people being like don't like pile onto

00:18:27.500 Hugh like he's a really great guy I think it's like well there's a whole group of women here

00:18:32.620 like hundreds of women who are saying how disappointed they were how much money they

00:18:37.640 had spent in a cost of living crisis to see her how important Dolly is to them and their lives

00:18:41.920 like Dolly has changed people's lives not to be dramatic but people you know say like change the

00:18:47.320 way I see my friendships and the way I relate to like dating and stuff she's a very influential

00:18:51.800 person and I think that people have a right to express their disappointment in a way that's not

00:18:58.920 cancelling this man like yes he does a lot of work for mental health but people also have a right like

00:19:04.280 if you're in a public facing job I think you have to accept critique and I hope that like this is

00:19:12.040 what this is i have no doubt that he will um eventually at the time of recording he hasn't

00:19:19.840 made a statement or has he hasn't actually been active on his public socials um but i do think

00:19:27.160 he will use this as like an accountability lesson and he will admit to his mistake because that is

00:19:32.060 what kind of the podcast is about i just think it goes to show that yeah despite him working in this

00:19:38.160 space for um over a decade that these basic kind of courteous like man I don't want to call it

00:19:46.920 manners because it's it's I think beyond just like politeness but it's just about like being

00:19:51.880 able to read the room and like being able to um know what's expected of you in the in these spaces

00:19:58.360 like that was what fell flat and to know your audience yeah and I think at the end of the day

00:20:03.760 as well like my problem wasn't necessarily that he was just a straight like white man I do think

00:20:13.400 there would have been other straight white men that would have done a better or more thorough

00:20:17.960 job and I mean that by yeah apparently you know he did kind of admit that he didn't read her books

00:20:23.620 I did hear that as well and it's like even if for instance like sorry to bring us into it but we we

00:20:30.620 work as journalists like I always I like you know we interview people that we don't know that we

00:20:35.840 aren't familiar with their work but we do the research you know we do the research another

00:20:40.120 thing I heard him say apparently was like oh today I was talking to a female co-worker about you

00:20:46.140 like getting the low down and it's like he kind of admitted on stage that this was very last minute

00:20:51.180 like that's that's I think not taking the job as seriously as a woman would have sorry not should

00:21:00.000 have but like would have in terms of having to over prepare one other thing I want to say as well 0.52

00:21:05.560 to that is like sure of course like nerves can be so normal you're speaking in front of

00:21:11.460 so many people but the way to combat that is by being prepared and doing your research

00:21:17.340 yeah that's such a good point and I also think before you and I were like oh my gosh this man

00:21:24.160 like what has he done essentially we also first were like why did the production company book him

00:21:32.360 like i think we were looking more at the production company of um which is feign productions and also

00:21:37.580 this night at hamer hall was the original night and that's what a lot of people online were saying

00:21:42.120 as well of like the original night was like the people who bought the tickets straight away like

00:21:48.120 the people who were ready to go pre-sale who were willing to drop 150 on the tickets not saying that

00:21:53.620 the people the night before weren't also super fans but this was the first night and i just i

00:21:58.060 don't understand did the feign productions like underestimate the dolly love in australia and

00:22:03.040 they wanted to try to get like his audience across or something i don't know but it's made

00:22:09.240 me so much more conscious of like hosts and like how important it is to like match your host your

00:22:15.920 demographic just before we end we also had a different perspective sent in from a listener

00:22:20.580 named Kiara so she said that some of the criticism is valid that maybe Hugh did talk a bit too much

00:22:27.820 about himself but she was very much of the mind that it was still a great night and the criticism

00:22:33.800 that was piled onto him is quite unfair so she says their conversation was fun and interesting

00:22:41.140 and Hugh's anecdotes led to Dolly sharing some interesting stuff too their vibes and their

00:22:46.520 rapport were great. I was having an excellent time. The way hecklers treated Hugh was nasty

00:22:52.000 and rude and disrupted the evening for the rest of the audience members. The energy of Hugh and

00:22:56.840 Dolly's conversation didn't recover and it was evident that Hugh was fairly upset. My friends

00:23:01.920 and I felt there was some tension in the audience as well. The fact that Dolly had to step in and

00:23:06.440 tell them to calm down made it pretty clear they went too far. Chiara also said, I feel really

00:23:12.180 sorry for Hugh who was doing an excellent job feel annoyed for myself and for other audience

00:23:17.300 members who had their experience spoiled by a few rude attendees and I'm a bit embarrassed at what

00:23:23.620 it must have looked like for Dolly I'm very grateful we got sent in like multiple perspectives

00:23:28.320 and opinions because yeah we don't want this to turn into like a pylon the cancellation of Hugh

00:23:37.000 like anything like that it's more as like this is our audience as well like you know women in their

00:23:43.300 20s figuring it out and so I think it's like listening to our audience as well and being like

00:23:49.520 what happened here like a post-mortem what happened here and looking at how yeah in the future how can

00:23:55.600 you how can like Australia essentially avoid that because we will have international people out here

00:24:02.220 again and I think like the industry itself is probably like oh like gonna keep that in the back

00:24:07.880 of the head so Dolly went on to speak in Brisbane last night with Bridget Hustlewaite and I recommend

00:24:15.000 everyone go and watch Bridget's TikToks on the night she was so grateful and she did such a great

00:24:22.120 job and you can tell how much it means to her and like how the opportunity to interview Dolly was

00:24:29.620 like a career highlight like how seriously she took it and I think yeah I think that's like the

00:24:34.500 level of commitment that people should be giving their jobs you and I live pretty busy lives

00:24:46.960 whether you're at the office or I'm shooting before we head to the studio to record the pod

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00:26:13.600 just $30. It's about 10 days post US election at the time of recording. We didn't get the result

00:26:27.260 that we had hoped from all the way from Australia. It's pretty scary and very, very disappointing.

00:26:35.080 We are not going to talk about the ins and outs of the election. We're not a politics podcast,

00:26:39.200 but there has been a conversation come up in the days since the US election and that is you know

00:26:47.360 what happened with the Democrats party and what they were trying to do but a lot of discourse has

00:26:53.280 also been around how did the Democrats not see this coming and people on the left as well when

00:26:59.620 so much of our fashion has been trending towards the right in recent years you're so right as well

00:27:06.840 obviously we're not a politics podcast nobody's ever put that on us but the themes of what we

00:27:13.440 talk about are often political we talk about culture we talk about social media we talk

00:27:17.100 about relationships and we talk about fashion there was a tweet that was making the rounds

00:27:21.980 and that read fashion is political milkmaid dresses cottage core long denim skirts quiet

00:27:29.280 luxury old money coquette soft girl girl max i'm just a girl stay at home girlfriend

00:27:36.340 and trad wives. It's never just about the clothes. Fashion TikToker Alicia Berman noted how fashion

00:27:43.300 has been moving to the right for around two and a half years. We'll play a little bit of the TikTok

00:27:48.600 now. The conformity on this app and in the fashion industry over the last two years is extremely

00:27:56.000 indicative of a return to conservatism. And honestly, shame on us for not knowing. Shame on

00:28:00.680 us for not being able to see the signs. I'm not going to lie. I was surprised because I live in

00:28:04.740 of bubble. But when I was thinking holistically about the industry as a whole, think about Celine,

00:28:09.060 think about this return to Americana, Ralph Lauren's trending again, people wearing polo

00:28:12.960 bags, little lady jackets. It's so much greater than like red is trending for fall, brown suede

00:28:18.220 is trending for fall. There is a value system associated with that aesthetic. We are returning

00:28:22.580 to that aesthetic because we have returned to that value system. So Jazz, I'm almost like

00:28:26.960 punching myself or pinching myself that I kind of didn't put these things all together, right?

00:28:32.460 Like we had seen things like Nara Smith, who is, you know, very famous for making food

00:28:37.720 from scratch and being like a kind of like a stay at home mom, even though she is rightfully 1.00

00:28:43.060 a businesswoman in her own, you know, lane. 0.93

00:28:46.080 But fashion trends have definitely been leading into conservatism recently.

00:28:51.100 I think post US election, I'm more conscious now of this stuff.

00:28:56.340 and one thing that's like not as much about clothes but one thing I've been trying to like

00:29:03.200 move away from is that I'm just a girl thing I know there already was some criticism of it

00:29:09.620 um when we were all saying it and we're definitely guilty of it of like perpetuating it

00:29:15.280 but like Cynthia's selection I just feel so like just more conscious of things and I guess

00:29:20.340 same thing with the fashion right like I asked for a Carolyn Bessette Kennedy

00:29:23.820 like coffee table book for my birthday this year and I'm like is that I mean it was the

00:29:31.120 coffee table book of the year and is that because I was seeing it so much on TikTok because I follow

00:29:38.180 American influencers who were dressing this certain way and therefore I wanted a piece of

00:29:42.280 that even though that was probably leaning into this like Americana like the Ralph Lauren

00:29:46.640 US flag jumpers and not that I would ever wear that but like just that style even as someone

00:29:52.460 who leans left but do you think that we all live in these subcultures right and do you think that

00:29:58.840 clothes definitely mean that you align with that like if you started wearing preppy old money do

00:30:06.720 you think that like that means you agree with the values of like conservatism or is it literally

00:30:13.820 just like an aesthetic I think what's interesting about this is how we interact with trends and

00:30:21.600 subcultures nowadays like I'm saying in the last five ten years has changed has changed so

00:30:27.240 dramatically and you know we interact with these trends so quickly that no I don't think our

00:30:34.380 fashion choices necessarily align with like our values and like you can put on a it's almost like

00:30:39.780 wearing a costume we've spoken this we've spoken about this before as well like for fashion to be

00:30:45.460 personal it's got to take time it can't just be like fake through uh participating in a trend

00:30:53.080 but what I found interesting is like hearing especially that tweet that I mentioned up top

00:30:58.480 um I was always a bit skeptical of quiet luxury and old money like that didn't actually sit

00:31:04.860 well with me I felt like oh I actually can't really I had a feeling of discomfort but I can't

00:31:10.420 place exactly why maybe just that just felt very um at an opposition of how my life is and I was

00:31:18.660 like oh I feel like I'm excluded from that so that's maybe why um but on the flip side I mean

00:31:24.640 when cottagecore was trending like five years ago that was definitely something that I enjoyed being

00:31:30.540 part of um but to your question as well um god it's hard I I would say almost like no I don't

00:31:38.360 think clothes are a direct reflection of someone's values. On the same side I found this Vice article

00:31:45.560 which was literally from 2018 but I felt like it resonated with this conversation and it was called

00:31:52.380 learn to spot the secret signals of far-right fashion and in the piece the writer interviews

00:31:58.120 Cynthia Miller Idris who is the author of the extreme gone mainstream commercialization and

00:32:05.340 far-right youth culture in germany and she's also a sociologist at american university so cynthia

00:32:12.140 says what we've seen over the past 10 years or so in europe and in the u.s is the complete breakdown

00:32:17.720 of that aesthetic to what i call a fragmentation of the scene and of the aesthetic of style that

00:32:24.340 just means there's a lot of different subcultural styles that are reflective of far-right ideology

00:32:29.740 and are deployed as part of the scene. 0.57

00:32:32.520 Basically, you don't see the skinheads at all any longer. 1.00

00:32:36.040 It's dead and it's gone. 0.99

00:32:37.840 I think there are a lot of different reasons for that.

00:32:40.420 Part of it is generational.

00:32:42.100 You see that with lots of different subcultures.

00:32:44.540 They adapt over time.

00:32:46.340 Later in the piece, she also says,

00:32:48.540 You can't identify anyone visually anymore

00:32:51.780 or automatically by what they're wearing,

00:32:54.080 which for me as an educator creates a bunch of pedagogical problems.

00:32:58.340 People have relied on that for years to know with whom they need to have conversations with

00:33:03.440 or intervention. I think it's a way of blending in, of evading notice, of not being as obvious.

00:33:09.720 I think it's interesting that last part as well, this obviously is from 2018, but post

00:33:15.460 Trump re-election, RIP, apparently a lot of Trump supporters who previously hadn't

00:33:22.840 explicitly said that have like come out and are wearing like the MAGA hats with pride or like

00:33:28.900 saying like you know what I am a Trump supporter because like clearly the mainstream America has

00:33:34.060 all voted the same way um whereas like before what Cynthia said they were blending in or like

00:33:40.760 not being as obvious because of the stigma associated with Trump so and that's like you

00:33:47.180 know obviously related to fashion if you're wearing your beliefs on your sleeve and you

00:33:52.580 know what's interesting I don't know if we're both talking about the same thing because I actually 1.00

00:33:56.320 don't know her name I wasn't that familiar with her work but there was an Australian female musician

00:34:01.160 who posted a selfie in a MAGA hat did you see this no who was that um I cannot recall exactly

00:34:08.920 who she was so unfortunately I can't provide more details but what was interesting is when I first

00:34:14.960 saw that selfie um this was shared in like a few people's close friends I thought it was a joke

00:34:20.320 because we've seen a lot of people like bringing irony into fashion and kind of you know joke

00:34:28.200 about or like make fun of alt-right kind of sides so my initial reaction was oh my god like this is

00:34:34.540 satire but there's a big problem with that and we read a sub stack that talked about this and

00:34:40.620 that was called fashion's alt-right flirtation from the i heart mess sub stack um and they

00:34:47.100 mentioned that yeah their line between ironic versus authentic endorsement continues to blur

00:34:53.300 beyond all recognition i've just found out who that person was by the way okay tell it was the

00:34:59.180 lead singer of the jezebels mary the lead singer was pictured wearing a manga cap yeah oh my god

00:35:08.800 no oh sorry her name's not mary australian singer-songwriter hayley mary has sparked vicious

00:35:14.520 backlash after she posted wearing a pro trump maggot cap on social media um allegedly she wore

00:35:21.360 the controversial baseball cap to protest australia's misinformation bill um and she's

00:35:28.620 gotten a lot of fallout from friends family and like the career crazy oh my god i'm so upset that

00:35:38.060 she was a lead singer of the jezebels who if you're a fan of dance academy like there is a real

00:35:44.160 powerful songs by them oh my god I'm so upset I'm sorry to break it to you I did want to bring

00:35:53.340 up that sub stack we're not going to get into the meat of it because um it covers a lot of

00:35:58.000 very specific examples of like American alt-right fashion and like politics intermingling so if you

00:36:03.640 are keen we have that link below but um I found it interesting that the writer brought up that

00:36:09.240 base like that internet term was co-opted by like the alt-right she also brought up the example of

00:36:15.560 Lana Del Rey posing with her like Glock gun in a nightgown after the Grammys and like these

00:36:22.820 these do contribute to culture and I think it might normalize and beliefs or it might

00:36:29.200 I don't know romanticize some aspects of conservative culture or you know alt-right.

00:36:36.200 i definitely think that 100 and i think like it was over when we were like with the whole

00:36:42.360 nara smith and like trad wife um trend being so huge and everyone kind of having that discourse

00:36:50.180 it was 100 romanticized i think this was too niche for us over here in australia but um over

00:36:57.600 the summer apparently a lot of like new york city cool girl influencers were posting photos with

00:37:03.400 guns and emily sunberg who writes the feed me newsletter wrote of this micro trend in july

00:37:11.160 saying these photos are clearly signaling something a combination of ruggedness naughtiness

00:37:17.100 being in on a joke with maggie dudes and playing provocation with one's audience they attempt to

00:37:23.320 turn the gun from murderous to americana pastiche i guess this conversation that we've had has just

00:37:29.220 really solidified just how political fashion really is and that we can't undermine its importance.

00:37:41.880 Time for recommendations. Maggie, what have you enjoyed reading, writing, or writing? You can

00:37:48.040 write your own recommendation. What have you enjoyed reading, watching, listening to this week?

00:37:53.400 I have a podcast episode to recommend and this was actually, lol, listened to pre-election,

00:38:01.300 but I think it really resonates still. It's a podcast called Plain English with Derek Thompson

00:38:06.660 and the episode is called America's Young Men Are Falling Behind and Shifting Right.

00:38:12.400 This was recommended to me by my boyfriend, Tom, and I really like the insights it provided.

00:38:16.920 So Derek Thompson is a long-time Atlantic tech, culture, and political writer.

00:38:23.120 And when I first heard about this, I was like, yeah, I kind of know about it.

00:38:26.340 Like I know that young men are like not like being as educated.

00:38:30.800 They're like quite lonely.

00:38:32.380 And like I knew the top line like analysis, but I think digging into this really like

00:38:38.800 opened my mind and, oh my God, it sounds so bad, but like I feel a lot more empathy and

00:38:44.420 a bit more understanding about the state of men it's very easy to be like men but it's like god

00:38:50.340 it actually is a hard and worrying time for them and therefore for women as well who have to deal

00:38:57.740 with the impacts so the episode interviews someone called richard reeves and he is the president of

00:39:03.600 the american institute for boys and men so they talk about um like working class men the gender

00:39:10.400 divide and how politics is obviously intertwined with that and yeah the stats are really shocking

00:39:19.000 like as women become more educated and become breadwinners like men are staying at home for so

00:39:25.300 much longer they feel like they have no purpose of course I'm speaking very general but um the

00:39:31.740 podcast episode does a great job of breaking it down and even though it's like centered on America

00:39:37.680 it definitely resonates here as well I want to have empathy and I will listen to this episode

00:39:44.260 but I have seen like a sentiment going around on the internet this week that's like when women are

00:39:50.000 lonely they get a hobby or that no when women are lonely they join a book club when men are lonely 0.87

00:39:54.920 they turn to fascism yeah that is so good I will say sorry I know I like mentioned like and it 0.79

00:40:01.680 sounds like it's really like woe is men kind of thing it's definitely not it's just more like

00:40:06.640 here's the reasons why they might be turning into these little fascists it doesn't like empathize

00:40:14.760 them in the way of like letting them off the hook definitely not um yeah that was kind of giving

00:40:19.940 menonism for a second but no it's it's good anyway let's hear your recommendation now what's

00:40:28.220 something that you've enjoyed this week we briefly touched on the topics of envy and jealousy in our

00:40:33.560 chat with Carmen as a Hardy last week and then this newsletter slid into my inbox I feel like

00:40:39.040 it's a theme at the moment um and that is comparison so comparison is something we can

00:40:46.880 all go through and then it kind of gets doubly triply worse with social media this week I read

00:40:54.960 so you're in a comparison spiral by Lilith Hardy Lupita for career newsletter The Forward which I

00:41:01.600 highly recommend everyone subscribe to because they give very real and honest career advice

00:41:10.540 they like interview people and they also it's also run by um arabella peterson and they are

00:41:18.020 working women in the early 30s who are kind of just like us if that makes sense so like they're

00:41:24.660 you feel very, um, very seen by the work in the forward. At least I do. So the career newsletter

00:41:32.340 started with every time I dial into an app, I'm often hit with brilliant news from all corners

00:41:38.980 of the globe. A friend in the newspaper and acquaintance winning an award, a complete stranger

00:41:44.040 securing a book deal and honestly good on them. I love to see it, but that admiration quickly

00:41:50.100 turns sour and that sourness turns inwards reflected and refracted a million times over

00:41:56.180 as I dissect and admonish myself for my lack of accolades and book deals the newsletter goes on

00:42:02.160 it's not very long either so like very accessible it goes on to give three points on how Lilith

00:42:07.480 deals with career comparison including how to deal with jealousy so I think it can really strike a

00:42:14.660 nerve if you're in that kind of headspace and make you feel less alone perhaps if you are someone who

00:42:22.740 consistently compares yourself to everyone on social media and i think we said this on the

00:42:28.140 podcast with carmen but jealousy and feeling envy is something that is still so taboo and

00:42:36.540 as women i don't think we interrogate it enough and i think it's one of those um emotions that

00:42:42.640 people like i guess parents are like don't be jealous like just wash it away like you know just

00:42:48.520 like forget about it kind of thing um whereas like if you interrogate it properly you can probably

00:42:55.060 not to sound woo woo but like do some shadow work and figure out like what you really want

00:43:01.560 out of your life so i recommend that we will be um linked in the show notes thank you so much for

00:43:07.720 joining us on this episode of culture club we've loved having this chat with you and a big thank

00:43:14.880 you to scarlet as well we'll have their information linked in our show notes bye-bye

Culture Club - November 18, 2024

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