00:09:55.920And that was enough to really trigger him.
00:09:59.040And then he sent me just all these messages just saying, like, how dare you?
00:10:04.100If people say that they love Asia and they love Asian culture, they cannot be racist.
00:10:08.680and then you just thought like yeah it just very quickly transformed into this whole kind of if
00:10:16.040you don't like it go back to where you came from I'm a white guy but I've experienced racism myself
00:10:21.240like we all go through things so on that note as well I've seen how quickly people can go from
00:10:27.240saying Australia's not racist or I don't see any racism here but in the same vein they'll say
00:10:34.040something like go back to where you came from if you don't like it or I've heard before it's a
00:10:39.520brilliant Aussie tradition if you don't like the way that things are here fly back home oh honestly
00:10:45.520so foul and that man I'm so angry at him because you know you don't owe him anything as you said
00:10:52.340and I love seeing you flourish into the woman you are now who speaks so like confidently about these
00:10:58.860important matters. But I mean, you're not, you don't leave the womb, you know, feeling this way,
00:11:05.040holding these values. So let's go back a bit. What was your relationship like with your Vietnamese
00:11:10.200heritage growing up? Yeah. I mean, when I reflect on my childhood, I still have very fond,
00:11:17.500rich memories of having that close connection to my culture and traditions, like mum dressing my
00:11:22.400sister and I in our matching red Aoyai, which is a traditional Vietnamese dress. I remember going to
00:11:28.700the city to celebrate Lunar New Year. I do find that, you know, something that I'm very thankful
00:11:35.780for is that my mum has always given my sister and myself this kind of permission and power
00:11:41.940to own our path and our identity. So she's had a lot of trust in us. She never kind of was too
00:11:47.500involved in what our journey would look like. And I know for her that was because when she came here,
00:11:52.520she would have been around 10 years old. So she also felt that she really had to assimilate and
00:11:57.900be accepted and growing up in country Victoria she felt that she was losing her native tongue
00:12:03.800and so she was speaking in English so she only spoke to my sister and I in English but I think
00:12:09.620part of that is because she didn't want us to feel like we were missing out especially you know
00:12:14.160trying to navigate school and forming friendships so I feel that when I was trying to grow into
00:12:20.540myself and navigating primary school and high school I wasn't really surrounded by a lot of
00:12:25.480people who look like me and you know that's fine to be surrounded by so many diverse people but
00:12:32.560for my own experiences I felt like I had to shy away and almost do whatever I could to distance
00:12:39.120myself from my Asian identity and my culture and my Vietnamese heritage as much as I could
00:12:44.680so my experiences were people referring to me as that Asian girl the Asian one the Chinese one so
00:12:52.880never really being used to being referred to by my name or people asking me things like what's
00:12:58.420your Vietnamese name and when I tell them it's me Ling they'd instead call me Ling Ling. People
00:13:03.820making fun of Asian food, people pulling their eyes back at me, I've had people drive past,
00:13:09.400wind the window down, yell out Ni Hao or hello China and then drive off laughing. I've experienced
00:13:15.760you know fetishization in dating, I don't think that I've ever been with a partner who's respected0.95
00:13:22.520that part of me and I've been so used to them and other people putting on an Asian accent and then0.73
00:13:29.440you're in that situation where you're sitting there and you don't know whether you shyly laugh0.99
00:13:33.500it off or you actually say something and call it out because once that happens you know that you're
00:13:39.800going to become the spectacle you're going to be told that you're making a scene you've made it a
00:13:45.120bigger deal than it is so it is one of those things that's hard because I felt like I always
00:13:49.300had to grow up choosing my battles I was always on the outside looking in and so especially I
00:13:56.760think in high school when you're really just trying to find yourself but you're also trying
00:14:00.300to find your people that was a huge struggle for me because I actually thought it was a compliment
00:14:07.060when people would say things like you're pretty for an Asian or you're the cool Asian or you're
00:14:13.560our token Asian or you're a banana you're yellow on the outside white on the inside I never thought
00:14:19.580to question any of those things but instead I thought this is actually telling me that I'm0.99
00:14:25.180successful in what I'm setting out to do which is to be less Asian so I felt like I was on the0.99
00:14:30.420right track so to hear those things I really held on to it and I think it only fed into my1.00
00:14:35.180internalized racism even more and I used to make comments and I'm not proud to say it but I can at1.00
00:14:41.360least reflect and own it now that, you know, I never wanted to hang out with the other Asian1.00
00:14:46.980kids at school. I never wanted to date an Asian guy. I'd never date an Asian guy. But I think0.97
00:14:52.420that shows how insidious racism can be that even as a woman of colour, even as an Asian woman,
00:14:57.760I was believing stereotypes made about my own race so much so that I wanted to distance myself
00:15:04.520from anything and anyone that made me look and feel more Asian yeah it shows yeah like you said
00:15:12.680how insidious it is especially when you're a teenager right like all teenagers want is to fit
00:15:18.040in be a part of you know a group so that's just like a whole another layer added on to
00:15:24.440the adolescent experience but going back to your family and your mum's experience of being
00:15:34.400in Victoria. Your parents and your grandparents had a very different experience moving to
00:15:40.820Australia. Can you tell us why and how they came to be in Victoria? Yeah, so when they came here in
00:15:47.4801979, that was after the fall of Saigon. So they literally came here by boat. They first were in
00:15:55.360Malaysia in a refugee camp before settling in Maryborough, which is country Victoria. It's
00:16:02.200midway between Ballarat and Bendigo. And my mum still remembers that outside of the church
00:16:08.780community that they had there, they experienced very confronting racism. So her and her sister,
00:16:15.780her younger sister, they still remember walking home from school and literally having white
00:16:20.060families try to run them off the road in their cars. Grandpa was a factory worker and he would
00:16:26.100go into work every day where they'd present him with a noose with his name on it. And he never
00:16:31.880told my family that until they left Maryborough and then they moved to Melbourne's western suburbs
00:16:36.240and it is heartbreaking when you think about it but I think it echoes a lot of the experiences
00:16:42.420of immigrants and refugees in Australia where you think that this is just the price that you0.66
00:16:47.540have to pay and I know my family's mentality has always been just keep your head down don't invite
00:16:53.900trouble we should just be grateful to be here this is what we have to go through this is all part of
00:16:59.180it. And it's almost like they tried to pass it on to me, not to, I guess, invalidate what I've
00:17:06.100been through, but just because I think they've seen the worst of humanity. And so when my mum
00:17:13.860had found out that I was using my voice online to call out and challenge racism, she didn't quite
00:17:20.700understand it. And I remember I was a bit upset by that because I was like, my mum has gone through
00:17:26.780this like why doesn't she understand that this is how I choose to use my platform and so it took a
00:17:34.160while and I guess part of me trying to reconnect with my culture and also I guess my family is when
00:17:40.640I was writing my book Safe Space I sat down with my mum and I asked her all these questions and
00:17:45.820it was almost the first time that I had this curiosity about my family's history
00:17:50.120and so when she shared with me those stories I think in her mind it was that things perhaps
00:17:56.880aren't as bad as they were back then or in comparison to what she's been through not to say
00:18:02.580that racism and discrimination should exist on a scale but I know for her it's that motherly
00:18:08.320instinct of just wanting to look out for me because I remember she made the comment of
00:18:12.200what are you going to do if you walk down the street and someone who doesn't agree with what
00:18:15.800you said online they see you something happens but I think what I'm proud of with our generation
00:18:23.300is that we're refusing to be silent and we're wanting to talk about these things and it is
00:18:28.740important that we talk about it because I've seen how it's fostered this deep sense of connection
00:18:33.060and community and to have other people even say to me that what I've shared and my story has made
00:18:39.720them feel seen and validated it reminds them of their family but even for me it means so much
00:18:44.620because when you go through racism, and especially when you've grown up in a country like Australia
00:18:50.420that prides itself on being diverse and everyone having a fair go, for me, I didn't have that safe
00:19:00.160space growing up where I could honour my emotions and my experiences. My family and I never had
00:19:04.900these conversations, and most of my friends were white, so either the conversations were
00:19:10.820non-existent or if they were ever with me when I experienced racism it was one of those things that
00:19:15.860they would just downplay and gloss over and I was just told it's not a big deal don't worry about0.99
00:19:21.140it they're just being idiots let it go so now where I'm in a place where I feel that you know0.99
00:19:28.420my voice has impact and I'm not just going through these things in isolation because that's the thing0.99
00:19:34.680growing up you think that this is just a unique experience to you and it's only happening to you
00:19:39.260especially if you're not surrounded by people who look like you and who you can talk to these things
00:19:43.960about it becomes difficult and you think that you're going through it alone but to understand
00:19:49.140that it is a shared journey and I think that global stop Asian hate movement really was
00:19:55.840significant for me in making that decision to say okay I've stayed small and silent for most of my
00:20:01.580life I don't want to continue this way anymore that was pivotal because I felt that you know
00:20:08.120we were coming together in this way that I've never experienced in my life. And to see
00:20:12.680Asian culture being talked about and celebrated, it was honestly life-changing for me.
00:20:19.260Thank you for sharing that. I think especially hearing about what your mum and your grandparents
00:20:25.340experience here is really, of course, heartbreaking and heart-wrenching. And it's really difficult
00:20:31.360actually to hear or to read in your book. I also think just generationally how racism
00:20:36.860has been experienced has changed so much and like the explicitness and like the physicalness
00:20:42.680of what um you know our like parents and general like grandparents would have faced versus like
00:20:48.020the implicitly of what we have now sure they're not equal and sure they like affect us all
00:20:53.480differently and i'm and i'm so happy that we were talking about that like my parents would say that
00:20:58.740they've never experienced racism in australia right and and it is a educational piece and it is
00:21:05.520like that response is potentially even like a self-preservation thing like you no one wants to
00:21:12.120feel like they're being attacked or that they're looked down upon for their race so yeah I just
00:21:17.520wanted to say this long ramble is just to say thank you for sharing that another element of
00:21:23.980anti-Asian advocacy you go into into your book is the myth of the model minority so for those
00:21:32.480who haven't heard of the model minority myth can you unpack the problems with it yeah so the model
00:21:39.740minority myth is this stereotype that all asians are smart successful and studious but the harm
00:21:46.600with that is that it's typically seen as a positive stereotype and we are sometimes framed
00:21:54.220as being the more privileged of people of color but the problem with that is that it dismisses
00:22:01.120our struggles the discrimination we face and any hardships that we encounter so for example
00:22:08.260when I was talking about you know stop Asian hate around again that 2020 to 2022 period I actually
00:22:16.040had someone message me and say you are an attractive probably wealthy Asian person
00:22:24.180by all Asian standards you are considered beautiful white people accept you and you're
00:22:30.120complaining about racism that you're experiencing online, pretty much get over it. And so I think
00:22:37.000people genuinely have this perception that because we are all apparently well to do in life, that we
00:22:44.260don't experience racism, that somehow it shields us from ever having to go through that. And I guess
00:22:51.480if I reflect on my experiences in high school, and what that was like for me, I really gravitated
00:22:58.340towards English and literature and I had my peers making comments like your mum would be so
00:23:03.840disappointed in you that you're not focusing on the sciences or math and I studied really hard I
00:23:10.600never had my mum put a lot of pressure on me and I feel like I need to say that because people do
00:23:16.560have this stereotype that there are tiger parents or tiger mums who you know expect their children
00:23:23.220to do exceptionally almost unrealistically well and that all of us do extra tutoring outside of
00:23:29.600school and I think the harm in that is that it takes away our individual merit so people won't
00:23:36.260recognize that an Asian student did well because they studied so hard and they gave it everything
00:23:41.060they had they just think oh it's just because you're Asian like that's what I expect of you
00:23:45.100that's almost in your DNA so I think it puts a lot of pressure on us to make us feel that there's
00:23:51.640almost this impossible benchmark that we need to meet but then I guess also there might be some of
00:23:58.420us in the community who feel that we almost need to rebel against that stereotype to show that you
00:24:02.900know we're not that kind of Asian because oftentimes there is that kind of negative
00:24:08.200stereotype that we're all very like nerdy and geeky and I feel like some people don't want
00:24:13.220to associate themselves with that so the model minority myth I think I struggle with people
00:24:18.880saying that it's a positive stereotype because I think what it's doing is grouping us all together
00:24:24.340and blanketing us, which we experience so much in so many other ways. And I think it's something
00:24:29.040that we definitely need to resist and challenge. And again, just encourage ourselves to see people
00:24:35.960as individuals rather than, you know, a monolith. And the model minority is just one part of your
00:24:42.440book Safe Space I would love to know what the process was like of writing Safe Space and how
00:24:49.880it came to be in the world when it started as Instagram posts yeah um so my publisher had
00:24:58.880actually reached out to me I believe on Instagram and I think you had was it Chantal Contis on
00:25:05.200recently and she was saying I swear she was saying um she thought she had to pay them to publish the
00:25:12.000book and that was my same that was my same experience I remember having a phone call with
00:25:18.000them and I was like I don't know how this all works like am I meant to pay you and then that
00:25:23.940that's when they were talking me through the process of you know we pay you in advance
00:25:27.240and I just said to them you're really going to have to walk me through this journey because
00:25:31.820I've written these long longer form posts on Instagram I share a lot of social commentary
00:25:37.540cultural criticisms. I've written articles, but a book is just completely different and new
00:25:43.360territory for me. So you're really going to have to guide me through it. But a few people from my
00:25:49.200publishing company had come across my work on Instagram and read some of my articles from
00:25:53.640Mamma Mia. So that's how I was kind of on their radar. And yeah, writing the book, it was just,
00:26:00.440it was a little bit scary. And I remember having this genuine fear when I was about to submit my
00:26:05.400first draft that my publisher was going to come back to me and just say you know what I think
00:26:10.860we're just going to call it here because I was like I don't know what I'm doing and you know
00:26:16.040in terms of the process I was like I don't know whether to map it out and write it chapter by
00:26:20.960chapter or do I just embrace that it's going to be a messy journey and whatever I feel drawn to
00:26:26.480whenever I'm in that kind of zone of writing to just go for it so that's what it was it was a very
00:26:32.320messy process but I don't think I would change it so I just had so many different things that I
00:26:38.320wanted to talk about and as you both know the book covers so many different areas and so many of my
00:26:43.520different experiences it's part memoir and then it's also part self-help so it was me opening up
00:26:50.520about you know things so personal to me and very much treating it like an open diary but then the
00:26:57.000other part of it is that I wanted it to end on a very hopeful note. I didn't want people to think
00:27:02.820that change isn't happening, community doesn't exist, or that our voices and stories don't
00:27:09.860matter. So that's why it was important for me to make sure that I shared very practical advice
00:27:14.220for so many different people, you know, whether you are a person of colour, whether you want to
00:27:20.120use your voice in a very important way or if you do want to be there as an ally for people of colour
00:27:27.520in a meaningful way I want everyone to see safe space as something that they can be a part of
00:27:33.300that's always been the main hope for me and you know a lot of time people think that it's a
00:27:40.980responsibility of people of colour to do all the work to be the voice and the face of anti-racism
00:27:47.260But I want people to understand that it's a journey that we are all a part of.
00:27:52.100It's important to uplift people of colour and their stories.
00:27:56.160But I think at the same time, we need to reflect on what we can all do and how we can challenge it, especially in our everyday lives and within our own circles.
00:28:05.560Because the question that I get asked the most, especially from allies, is what can I do?
00:37:19.940So it seems like a choice that I've made now that I'm not wanting to date because I'm so
00:37:26.640sick and tired of having to think about these things.
00:37:29.420And it's really hard when people don't allow me to feel the way that I do.
00:37:34.180So when they just say, no, like just give dating a chance, like you can't always say it's about race, like how can you prove it? What if Asian women are just their type? But like I said before, I think it all comes back to how people see and treat you, how they make you feel, how they also, I guess, perceive other Asian people and our community.0.76
00:37:54.180because I feel like a lot of the guys that I dated they loved traveling to Asia they loved
00:37:59.360Asian food they would really express how much they loved Asian culture but something that I
00:38:04.540really had to think about is what how do they feel about me how do they make me feel how do
00:38:10.220they treat me how respected do I feel when I'm around them um and you know how much can I open
00:38:17.660up to them about I guess insecurities or fears that I have as an Asian Australian woman and are
00:38:23.080they going to hear me out um because I remember talking to my second ever boyfriend and I was
00:38:32.240opening up to him about a racist experience that I had where I was in a dark alleyway walking to
00:38:39.340a restaurant and I had a group of guys come up to me completely unprovoked and hurled racial slurs
00:38:45.300at me and you know this was a moment where I was like okay let's just see how he handled this and
00:38:52.460his response was, you're just being sensitive about it. It was nothing. You just have to let
00:38:56.760it go. And that was a white man. That was a white man. Yes. So, I mean, I know, I know some people
00:39:05.340will think, you know, how does this tie in with the, you know, sexualization and fetishization
00:39:09.680of Asian women, but it's, you know, I just never felt that I was seen to them as a whole being.
00:39:17.920There were just parts of me and perhaps parts of Asian culture
00:39:21.060that they liked and they wanted to be associated with.
00:39:25.280But I feel like all of them kind of had these hopes, stereotypes
00:39:28.520and expectations of what I was going to be like.
00:39:31.900And then there was just so much guilt and rage passed on to me