Culture Club - The Cult Of Beauty With Author Chloe Elisabeth Wilson

00:00:00.000 Hi, nice to see everyone.

00:00:27.520 Hi guys, I'm Jasmine Wallace. And I'm Maggie Zhao. And you're listening to a live recording

00:00:34.220 of Culture Club podcast at the Melbourne Writers Festival. 0.78

00:00:42.400 Today we are on the lands of the Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nations. First Nations

00:00:47.640 people have taken care of our lands and waterways for over 60,000 years. We would like to pay 1.00

00:00:53.540 our respects to elders past and present and extend that to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait

00:00:58.180 Islanders here today. Thank you everyone for coming and for this Friday night special. We love

00:01:03.800 the woos. We're so excited. So Jazz and I here, we're Culture Club. We're a podcast that focuses 0.99

00:01:11.500 on pop culture, current affairs, internet trends and our lives. But every month we have a special

00:01:18.560 interview episode where we interview someone we find interesting and that we think you will too

00:01:24.160 which brings us to this very special guest here today please join us in welcoming Chloe Elizabeth

00:01:30.820 Wilson. Chloe Elizabeth Wilson is the author of the debut novel Ritual published just this week

00:01:43.200 by Penguin. Chloe lives between Los Angeles and Nam. Her work has been published in Refinery

00:01:49.160 29, The Guardian and ABC Every Day and she has also worked as a researcher for Shameless

00:01:55.240 Media and Podcast. Her book Ritual has been described as both a darkly funny deconstruction

00:02:02.020 of the beauty industry and a gripping examination of career, feminism and desire. It asks the

00:02:08.680 question, what if your favourite cult beauty brand was actually a cult? Ritual blends a number of

00:02:15.720 genres together, psychological thriller, comedy, sci-fi and contemporary lit to create a truly

00:02:22.620 gripping read. So the book only came out on Tuesday so not sure how many of you have had a chance to

00:02:29.720 run out to bookstores and pick it up but we'll share a little bit of the plot regardless. So it

00:02:34.080 follows main character, an aimless

00:02:36.040 20-something Melburnian named

00:02:37.800 Marnie Selick, who gets swept up

00:02:40.000 into the glamorous world of Ritual

00:02:42.060 Cosmetica.

00:02:43.620 It's a beauty brand where everything is

00:02:46.060 not what it seems, and Friday night

00:02:48.000 drinks are very important. So it feels very

00:02:49.940 fitting that we're doing this on a Friday night as well.

00:02:52.300 Did anyone bring a man with them?

00:02:55.320 Marnie 1.00

00:02:55.880 embarks on a journey of girl bossery

00:02:57.720 and discovery, and she's helped along 1.00

00:02:59.940 by the enigmatic beauty

00:03:01.420 founder, CEO Luna

00:03:03.500 peters that's it yes that is the book yes if you've got any burning questions for chloe we've

00:03:10.700 got a slido offering which means you can submit your own questions with this qr code i'll be

00:03:16.440 reading out the questions so it can be anonymous so you can drop in your name but yeah we'll have

00:03:20.720 time for questions throughout chloe congratulations how are you feeling on launch week i feel kind of

00:03:27.500 i said this yesterday i feel kind of like this week felt more like my birthday than my actual

00:03:31.440 birthday which was it was really nice I think you just like don't I didn't know what to expect like

00:03:36.760 this is the first time I've done this so I think yeah there's like a lot of nerves and then there

00:03:40.920 are just so many people that kind of come out of the woodwork and they say oh I bought your book

00:03:44.380 and like people I haven't spoken to in so many years so it's been really nice yeah and we're

00:03:49.820 wondering how would you describe your book to someone who's chronically offline okay never met

00:03:55.340 a chronically often person in my life um I generally just say it's a dark comedy thriller

00:04:01.120 about a cult beauty brand with some sinister secrets that's like my one sentence pitch

00:04:05.800 mysterious yeah are we able to hear an excerpt yes of course I figured I would just read from

00:04:12.440 the very beginning just to avoid any spoilers so this is yeah right from the top there's no

00:04:18.000 context needed this is the prologue hers was the second dead body I'd ever seen not counting my

00:04:24.360 mother's. My mother doesn't count because when people died in nursing homes or hospital beds

00:04:29.160 or a worn lounge chair, they had passed away. Dead was bright red blood, striking even in almost

00:04:36.100 complete darkness. Hers was the second dead body I'd seen in as many months, and it was, if I'm

00:04:41.620 honest, too, too many for someone with my gag reflex. What the fuck? I kept saying over and 1.00

00:04:47.220 over like a chant. What the fuck? I can explain, Luna said, wiping the knife on the leg of her 1.00

00:04:53.180 cargo pants as if it were paint or chutney or nothing at all. But first we need to move her 1.00

00:04:58.480 body. She said it as though it was something I'd already agreed to, as if I'd known this was where

00:05:04.020 we'd end up. And at first it made me mad. But I was tired. In my body, yes, but also in a grand

00:05:10.340 spiritual sense. And because I was tired and I'd already sunk so much of myself into believing

00:05:15.680 that this was the right place and the right time I said okay chapter one the cycle studio was called

00:05:24.940 ride on and the exclamation mark was compulsory it was located in Richmond a neighborhood of

00:05:32.060 Melbourne that most resembled a kind of corporate Disneyland everything in Richmond was designed to

00:05:37.540 meet the needs of ambitious young professionals as I stabbed the studio key towards the lock

00:05:43.120 in the freezing dark of early morning, so hungover I was probably still drunk, I was reminded of the

00:05:48.720 fact that I was neither ambitious nor professional and even my youth felt questionable. When the lock

00:05:54.920 finally sprang open, I bolted up the stairs, the shadow of four consecutive Negronis prodding at 1.00

00:06:00.040 the back of my throat. When I made it to the landing, I ran my fingers over every light switch 1.00

00:06:04.980 and snatched up the heating remote. The heater clicked on, then off, then on again, then it

00:06:10.700 stalled. I stared it down, my right eye twitching in time with the machine's little ticks, and

00:06:15.900 eventually heat flooded the reception area. I leant over the desk to steady myself. I

00:06:21.160 was not going to be sick. And I've just skipped a sentence. There we go. I checked the time,

00:06:26.920 5.41. Technically, I was supposed to open the door to clients at 5.45, but anyone who

00:06:32.100 arrived a full 15 minutes early to a 6am weekday cycle class was probably dangerous. The instructor

00:06:38.620 and studio owner Stephanie was also yet to arrive. Ride On was essentially a hallway with a

00:06:44.360 collection of rooms that ran down the left hand side. First there was the Pilates studio. A woman

00:06:50.060 called Freesia taught reformer Pilates four nights a week and I often caught her taking photos of

00:06:54.740 herself on the equipment before and after class. I say caught but she rarely flinched when she met

00:07:00.780 my gaze in the mirror. She was a micro influencer as well as a fitness instructor and also a floral 0.97

00:07:06.540 designer. Anyone with under 100,000 followers apparently qualified for the title of micro

00:07:12.220 influencer, which seemed depressingly inclusive to me. The second room was the cycle studio,

00:07:19.080 the main event, which held 30 stationary bikes and an intricate lighting rig. The instructor's

00:07:24.220 bike was presented on a raised platform, which most of the instructors were fine with, given

00:07:28.640 they were also actors or failed actors. Classes took place in a lighting state you might describe

00:07:34.420 as in the club, which tricked people into thinking that 45 minutes on a stationary bike was a fun

00:07:40.500 and rebellious thing to do after populating spreadsheets all day. Behind the cycle studio

00:07:46.480 were a small kitchen-cum-staff room and two oversized changing rooms. The changing rooms

00:07:51.780 were demarcated by gender, although the clientele at Ride On was almost exclusively wealthy women.

00:07:57.540 When I started my role at Ride On, I thought that working there could fix me, but just over a year 1.00

00:08:02.980 later Stephanie was really on my case about signing up for the ride-on teacher training

00:08:06.900 and I realized that any hope I had for transformation had vanished. I couldn't stop

00:08:12.020 making glib jokes about ride-on which meant that it really was all over. I had a habit of chasing

00:08:17.900 belief with skepticism but never skepticism with belief again. My pattern was belief, skepticism,

00:08:25.440 something new. I told Stephanie I was considering the teacher training but I was considering it

00:08:30.220 about as much as I was considering moving to Norway.

00:08:33.660 It was a year since my mother had died,

00:08:35.700 and I was still bumping around in the dark,

00:08:37.780 trying my best to make out the shapes of people and places.

00:08:41.600 I wanted to keep this a secret,

00:08:43.320 but the smell of grief was thick in my hair,

00:08:45.660 like a bonfire or last night's vomit.

00:08:48.480 After I'd prepared the Steichel Studio,

00:08:50.500 powered up the club lights, and selected a playlist

00:08:52.860 titled Empowering Weekday Wake Up,

00:08:55.540 I did a sweep of each of the changing rooms

00:08:57.480 to make sure no one had forgotten

00:08:59.020 their sweaty underwear the night before. When I returned to the reception desk I heard knocking

00:09:03.720 5.52. I ran down the stairs and unlocked the door. A woman who came to class most days stared back at

00:09:10.160 me, her skin bright with little flushes of pink. She had long dark hair and an angular body, the 0.98

00:09:16.080 kind of body the early 2000s tried to strong-arm women into believing was the only possible body. 0.70

00:09:21.260 That is to say, despite her sharp edges, her frame also carried a pair of enviable breasts.

00:09:26.140 The pace at which these thoughts appeared to me was truly shocking.

00:09:30.120 The call was definitely coming from inside the house.

00:09:37.940 So good.

00:09:39.980 Maggie and I used to work in Cremorne together, which is like in Richmond.

00:09:44.540 And I have attended a spin class in Richmond.

00:09:46.920 As have I.

00:09:47.560 I opened that first chapter and I was like, oh my God, this is so accurate.

00:09:51.340 Oh, thank you.

00:09:51.960 So good.

00:09:52.900 So what drew you in first?

00:09:54.620 Was it the beauty of cults or the cult of beauty?

00:09:58.180 It was definitely both.

00:09:59.660 I think I worked for a company that shall remain nameless

00:10:06.140 that was a cosmetics company I headquartered in Melbourne

00:10:09.920 with a bit of a reputation for being more or less a cult.

00:10:14.440 And although it's nothing like ritual in the book,

00:10:17.140 I think I had worked there for three or four years

00:10:20.140 before I thought, oh, this is a really great setting for a story.

00:10:23.560 and I kind of just started thinking about like I really didn't like my job there I really liked

00:10:29.300 everyone that I worked with but my actual job there was not very inspiring and I kind of just

00:10:33.640 started imagining okay well there are these very theatrical things that we do every day here that

00:10:39.360 probably no one else knows about and they were extremely benign nothing like what happens in the

00:10:44.600 book if you've read it just to be clear but I just started imagining like what would happen if you

00:10:50.040 kind of blew that out to the extreme and um yeah that was kind of like how I started building the

00:10:54.740 story. How did you toe that line? Were you scared of kind of getting in trouble or is it all just

00:11:02.300 everything is copy? Um well literally today um a profile of me came out in a major newspaper

00:11:10.380 where they did name the company that I worked for which I think is fine because I don't I have

00:11:14.800 never said anything kind of damaging about the company because I truly did have like a

00:11:19.860 fantastic time working there and I made friends that I'll keep for the rest of my life so

00:11:23.680 I think the only truth in the book is in the margins there's like it's not an autobiography

00:11:29.780 I've never killed someone um spoiler alert spoiler alert I mean it's like on the first page someone

00:11:35.700 dies um so yeah I think I don't think yeah it was all written in in good faith and it was definitely

00:11:42.400 just kind of picking out things that I found to be quite funny and and kind of yeah pressing on

00:11:47.920 them a bit for those who haven't worked in the beauty industry I haven't what were some of the

00:11:54.680 I guess more quirky sides of things that really pulled your attention and kind of translated

00:12:00.260 loosely into this book well I think it's funny because maybe yeah if you didn't know me in in

00:12:07.380 real life and you read this you might assume that I worked somewhere like Mecca or Glossier or you

00:12:12.120 know a makeup brand and I worked for a company that was not very like femme focused it was you

00:12:17.220 know for all genders and it was more kind of personal care focus probably about now you realize

00:12:21.320 which brand I'm talking about um so I think yeah I think it was more like specific things about where

00:12:28.760 I worked but I found very funny particularly you know there's some stuff in the book about email

00:12:32.020 etiquette there's some things about the snacks in the office and um a knowing laugh from someone

00:12:36.940 in the audience um yeah it was more just like just little small things that probably have more to do

00:12:42.740 with like the cult of corporations than they do beauty but I am also genuinely very interested in

00:12:48.660 the ways that we kind of form our identities around things like cosmetics and fashion and

00:12:53.460 and that can be a beautiful thing but also I think when it becomes something that takes more from you

00:12:59.480 than it gives I think that is quite interesting. Yeah and that feels like such a point where we're

00:13:05.140 at at the moment like wellness and beauty the lines are being increasingly blurred so what do

00:13:11.480 you think about that trend that's happening in our own lives obviously you pulled a lot of inspiration 0.99

00:13:14.840 from it yeah I think well honestly I think it all comes back to the phones those damn phones oh my 0.97

00:13:21.260 god the phones like I do think at the end of July I'll probably just like throw my phone in a river

00:13:25.660 and like hope for the best but I think it like does all come back to there are these like avatars

00:13:31.900 that we build about like for ourselves and particularly online but also in real life I

00:13:35.760 think and and that can be like a really empowering thing to kind of decorate your avatar you know

00:13:40.500 like getting tattoos and like wearing clothes that you feel really great in like that's fantastic I

00:13:44.920 think yeah like I said it's like the troubling aspect of it I think is more when you believe

00:13:52.240 that kind of like what Marnie says in the first chapter like believing that something can fix you

00:13:57.540 and like can fundamentally alter something about your like soul I think that that's just like

00:14:03.360 that's a hole that's never going to be filled so corporations kind of playing into that and

00:14:08.300 and like yeah they corporations know that like of course you know that's that's kind of like the

00:14:13.840 whole discipline of marketing I think so I think it's yeah it's more just like being aware of those

00:14:20.900 things I feel like that was a real downer of an answer no not at all we've been getting lots of

00:14:27.760 great questions coming through so thank you audience someone has asked what are your thoughts

00:14:33.040 on the substance the movie and its relevance to the beauty industry today i actually have a um the

00:14:39.760 substance nalgene water bottle that i like take everywhere with me with me i love it um i love

00:14:45.200 that movie so much i saw it at um miff like melbourne international film festival last year

00:14:50.840 at like a maybe it was like a 10 o'clock screening at the asta and it was like packed and i was by

00:14:54.980 myself and like i just had no idea what to expect and at the end i turned to this guy beside me who

00:15:00.360 was like 65 alone and we both were there alone and we were just like what um but that didn't

00:15:07.420 answer your question I think um I'm just saying I love that movie um I think definitely talking

00:15:13.460 about like women's bodies um aging particularly aging in the public eye and yeah the like extreme

00:15:20.060 lengths that we'll go to you know to try and achieve some level of beauty you know whether

00:15:26.480 that be things like you know laser hair removal and all these things that we've kind of normalized

00:15:30.640 I think yeah there's so much violence in that and that's I think so much of that film is about the

00:15:36.240 violence of trying to become beautiful beautiful in inverted commas and yeah I think there's

00:15:44.900 something so interesting about like as humans I'm like we are fundamentally like really gross

00:15:50.720 Like, you know, it's normal to be kind of gross,

00:15:53.360 but I think particularly in, like, trying to present 0.97

00:15:57.260 as, like, being super feminine, it's, like,

00:15:59.100 to cast aside any sign of being gross,

00:16:02.520 and I think that film was so effective

00:16:04.140 because it was just bringing all of this, like,

00:16:06.880 grotesque stuff to the fore.

00:16:09.480 Yeah.

00:16:10.660 Oh, that just reminds me, 0.98

00:16:12.380 people are injecting salmon sperm into their face. 0.98

00:16:15.100 Yes, yeah. 0.96

00:16:15.640 And we talk about, like, the violence of beauty.

00:16:17.680 I mean, we don't talk about it enough, I think.

00:16:19.560 totally yeah and even um dr barbara stern i'm sure if anyone's read the book there's like

00:16:23.540 definitely some inspiration taken from things that she does and you know one of those things

00:16:27.640 is taking people's blood and giving the vampire facials like i think kim kardashian was you know

00:16:32.820 sharing a lot about that and that's kind of crazy like you don't need that like but also you know

00:16:39.100 each their own it's becoming so much more like you said no hate like you said it's becoming so

00:16:46.780 much more normalized to like have these kind of extreme beauty treatments and do you think like 0.98

00:16:52.420 in a world that's becoming more unstable and more chaotic middle-class women are going to these like 0.94

00:16:59.480 or like buying into the cult of beauty like in the book yeah to feel some sort of sense of control 0.94

00:17:03.720 definitely yeah and you there's things like even the other day I was like at the hairdresser and

00:17:07.980 they were like oh my god we've got salon pay now which is like after pay for salons and like

00:17:12.680 I'm like you that seems like no we shouldn't do that like it shouldn't you shouldn't have to

00:17:18.900 do that but also I'm like you know we're in a cost of living crisis and like if you want to

00:17:23.220 get your hair done that service is there so yeah I think it's like the thing that is very interesting

00:17:28.060 to me is like what we'll put on the line um in the hope that we will because I guess like

00:17:34.520 the whole beauty industry is predicated on we just want to look like ourselves like we want

00:17:41.180 to look like the version of ourselves we believe ourselves to be but i think that the goal posts

00:17:45.400 keep shifting the more that you yeah buy into things like that speaking of salon pay was that

00:17:52.000 here in melbourne or la it was here oh my god it feels so la let me tell you i had a really funny

00:17:58.340 experience in la i there's this like very fancy um eyebrow and eyelash studio like around the

00:18:04.120 corner from where we live and i had walked past it quite a few times and i hadn't had my eyebrows

00:18:08.340 done in like five months and I was like you know what I'm gonna treat myself and I looked up how

00:18:12.560 much it was online but the thing about America is like nothing ever costs what it says it costs

00:18:17.460 because of tip and tax so I was like oh I'm guessing it's gonna be you know x amount of

00:18:22.960 money like I think I thought it was gonna be all up like 60 dollars which is in USD is like a lot

00:18:27.460 of money for me I think to get my eyebrows done but I was like that's okay I walked out of that

00:18:32.380 place and I paid 120 US dollars because she like put a tint on it she did like some other stuff

00:18:39.140 and she didn't really tell me she was doing it oh and then she was just like okay here it is and

00:18:43.300 then they give you the iPad to choose the tip and I was just kind of like okay and like oh my god

00:18:48.620 that is there was no salon pay there I would have used it obviously like yeah whoa with conversion

00:18:54.880 rate what's that like nearly like our rule is don't convert well my partner and I were just

00:18:59.660 like it costs what it costs and we'll figure it out because it's too stressful well when we're

00:19:05.400 thinking about the cultural beauty I feel like nowhere kind of exemplifies that more than LA

00:19:09.880 so it's interesting that you chose to set the book here in Melbourne why did you do that because

00:19:14.840 you split your time between both cities yes and you've made Melbourne such a visceral kind of

00:19:19.860 character in this book as well well I the book was finished by the time I went to LA so I started

00:19:25.460 writing it in October of 2021 I think so it's it's been like a long time coming now and I think

00:19:31.680 I finished the first draft at the beginning of 2023 and then I only went over to LA in last

00:19:36.940 October so it's still relatively new but yeah I was like living in Brunswick working in Collingwood

00:19:44.040 my partner lived in Collingwood it was like kind of through COVID and then after COVID our lives

00:19:48.680 felt very small and that like yeah microcosm of the inner north of Melbourne is like hysterically

00:19:54.640 funny it's so funny like I love it and I don't remember I don't know if this is still in the

00:19:59.620 book but at one point there was like I think it is still in it there's a sentence that's like

00:20:03.060 you know uh Carly and I always said that Collingwood was a parody of itself but we never did

00:20:08.080 anything in protest and like I feel that that's like my thoughts because like I love a little

00:20:14.560 like natural wine bar and like I will like I drink pet nat more than I drink like normal wine

00:20:20.240 but like I also think it's very funny so yeah what did you want non-locals to know about the city

00:20:26.100 um I think just like the silliness of it because I do think that it's like it's not just Melbourne

00:20:32.060 I think every city has like a pocket that you know takes itself quite seriously and um yeah I

00:20:39.280 think probably just that and I think there's some universality to it but also I do think like

00:20:43.420 often when books and this is not this is a grand sleeping statement that I don't really intend to

00:20:48.980 be that way but often like we think of Australian literature is like the bush the beach you know all

00:20:53.880 of that but I think as someone who grew up like you know in Melbourne it's this is my experience

00:20:59.480 of Australia so yeah let's move on to another pressing theme in the book which is workplace

00:21:05.560 culture more specifically toxic bosses why do you think we have such a like a strange fascination

00:21:13.520 and infatuation with this reoccurring trope i mean okay when men do it it's boring and i i do feel

00:21:23.600 like whenever i like hear a story of a woman behaving terribly i just find it like so delicious

00:21:30.160 which like maybe that's my toxic train um and i i don't yeah maybe maybe it's just because like i 0.69

00:21:37.900 think since I was born like almost every story I've like come across like so many films so many

00:21:43.880 books everything is about a man doing bad stuff so I think anytime you know there's a story I can

00:21:48.860 pick up where a woman is doing something that she knows she shouldn't I think that is interesting

00:21:53.180 to me but yeah with the toxic bosses I think something I was like reflecting on on the way

00:21:59.460 here and I don't know if this will answer the question but maybe it'll be interesting like I

00:22:03.680 think something I figured out about myself when I because I hadn't worked in like a corporate

00:22:08.120 environment really at all in my 20s until I worked in the office of this company that shall remain

00:22:13.620 nameless and I like didn't there's so many things that I think if you come out of uni and you go

00:22:19.760 into a corporate job there's so many things you learn very quickly and they become normal but

00:22:23.240 as someone who like was a Pilates teacher was a children's entertainer was like I did so many

00:22:29.060 weird jobs and then being in an office I was I felt like an alien and I think I realized that I

00:22:35.520 was kind of like a pick me girl when it came to like powerful women like men didn't work on me

00:22:40.720 in that way it was just like a woman like being really like in her power and I I don't think I

00:22:46.540 really ever had a Toxipos and certainly not someone like Luna in my real life but I found 0.76

00:22:52.380 the idea of that to be like very interesting and yeah it was just kind of yeah what came out when

00:22:58.260 of started writing for sure yes and you said before you're kind of obsessed with female bosses

00:23:04.740 and the like when they take a step wrong which we saw a lot of in 2020 I mean kind of the fall

00:23:11.900 of the girl boss yes definitely we now live in like a quote unquote post girl boss world

00:23:17.520 but do you think the girl boss has evolved into something new yeah because I think I don't know

00:23:27.080 where I read this but I saw some think piece the other day that was like Gwyneth Paltrow is back

00:23:32.440 and I was like she never left she like hit that guy skiing and we loved it I think um yeah like

00:23:42.600 what did she say she was like I wish you well like that's amazing that's so good I think yeah

00:23:48.060 I don't I don't know that she went anywhere and I think like I think that you know there were women

00:23:53.160 Like, when I was writing Ritual, I got really obsessed with the founder of Think's Period Underwear.

00:23:59.380 I don't know if anyone knows anything about this woman.

00:24:01.160 Her name is Mickey Agrawal. 0.89

00:24:02.820 Don't know her personally.

00:24:04.100 Maybe she's nice, but I read a lot of stuff that did not point in that direction.

00:24:09.640 There was just, like, all these crazy stories where she built this very profitable business that kind of took off very fast.

00:24:16.120 And then, obviously, you know, I think in those environments, what's that thing like move fast and break things?

00:24:21.300 you know people they don't really know what they're doing and then suddenly they own a company

00:24:24.840 and she would like take zoom meetings on the toilet and like there was some stuff about um and

00:24:32.260 this there's inspiration was drawn from this in the when I was writing the book but there was

00:24:36.720 something about like one day in the office she was just like comparing the size of everyone's

00:24:39.900 breasts and like that was that's just scratching the surface like that's not even it and then also

00:24:44.040 it turned out that the period underwear itself was like proven to cause cancer or something there

00:24:49.160 was something crazy that happened like all in quick succession and my favorite thing about her 1.00

00:24:54.360 is she wears these crazy hats she like I need you all to go home and google this woman because in 1.00

00:24:59.780 every like press engagement she wears these hats that are like this big and she's really small and

00:25:05.360 I was like that is so funny yeah I don't know if that answered the question so do you think that

00:25:12.720 you were pulling from those women kind of yeah yeah definitely and yeah I think I think um

00:25:20.060 definitely was looking at it from the standpoint of like oh these are women you know you definitely 1.00

00:25:24.560 shouldn't answer a zoom meeting on the toilet obviously probably shouldn't wear those giant 1.00

00:25:27.920 hats that's my opinion though um that's strike that we can cut that out um but I think yeah but

00:25:36.340 then there were some genuine like you know some conversations that really needed to be had

00:25:40.800 particularly in 2020 there was like very serious things going on in the world and there were a lot

00:25:44.600 of businesses that like were treating people of color really poorly and there was a reckoning that

00:25:48.420 needed to happen and I think that is a hundred percent valid as you know not valid's not the

00:25:53.520 word but that was really important that that happened but then I think after that there was

00:25:58.200 this like okay I think online we kind of were then waiting for more people to mess up like I think

00:26:03.480 there were people who were doing genuinely bad things and running their companies in ways that

00:26:07.380 were like very harmful to people but then yeah there was this moment I think where we were taking 0.99

00:26:12.460 a lot of delight in in waiting for these powerful women to fall and yeah that like doesn't really 0.91

00:26:20.080 gel super well with me but I think it's just the way that we like have always viewed women in the

00:26:24.660 public eye I think so yeah well this masochism kind of does feed into your book and there is

00:26:30.680 also this ongoing through line of vengeance throughout ritual which feels especially

00:26:37.540 relevant in a post-metry world what were your feelings about exploring this in a work of fiction

00:26:42.980 I think when I started writing the book I was like definitely like I said this isn't like a

00:26:50.280 an autobiography but I think when I started writing the book I was in a really different

00:26:54.900 place in my life and I was like really mad at men and like I didn't when I first started writing

00:27:01.320 the first draft I didn't know that this was where the story was going to go I kind of knew who the

00:27:05.920 characters were and I remember when I finished the first draft and handed it into my agent he was

00:27:10.320 like are you sure this is what you want because he was kind of like it doesn't have to you know

00:27:14.260 and I was like no actually this is 100% the story that I want to tell I think yeah I just had

00:27:20.640 yeah in my real life just had so many encounters kind of through the years from when I was like 20

00:27:27.020 to when I was 27 or so where there were just these like men that I encountered that just could

00:27:32.900 essentially do no wrong like they they would behave so poorly and actually still like you know

00:27:37.940 I've just finished writing another novel and I was kind of looking at um like elite arts

00:27:42.660 institutions and the way that particularly men can come into those those um institutions and like

00:27:49.400 prey on young women who want to be like actors or um you know in the arts in some way and they

00:27:55.400 kind of come in and have this huge ego boost when they you know like have affairs with the students

00:27:59.940 and whatever that's still happening like and that's you know not even scratching the surface

00:28:03.760 but I definitely think when I started writing I yeah I was really mad at men in general and you

00:28:11.480 know yeah that actually answers one of our uh lovely listener audience questions Caitlin did

00:28:18.520 asked what was that kind of aha moment of creating this book we've had a few other questions come

00:28:23.540 through about um then taking that idea and how did you turn that into creating the book like

00:28:29.100 what was the process of actually making this yeah it was definitely like just a lot of a lot of

00:28:35.980 writing surprisingly I think like the thing with writing a novel because I had not like I haven't

00:28:42.400 I studied screenwriting and most of my writing prior to the novel was um I started in screenwriting

00:28:48.040 and then I had kind of started pitching to the ABC and The Guardian

00:28:51.220 and things like that as a way to just be paid to write

00:28:55.260 because I didn't really know how else to do it.

00:28:57.300 And then I had a screen project that kind of fell over

00:29:01.880 and I was very upset about it and my friend Eve said to me,

00:29:05.360 you know, you should think about writing a novel.

00:29:06.920 And I didn't know how long a novel was, didn't really know how to start.

00:29:10.000 I was a voracious reader.

00:29:12.380 So I kind of just started and I think it's the best way to start

00:29:17.280 when you don't really know what's ahead of you and a lot of the process really just was

00:29:21.340 getting all the clay on the table and finishing the first draft and letting it be um kind of bad

00:29:27.580 in some ways and like letting it you know be kind of wonky and then just going back doing a second

00:29:32.400 draft third draft fourth like I think this is probably draft five or six and like last year I

00:29:37.740 did a really significant revision where you know the plot remained mostly the same but I rewrote

00:29:42.980 probably like 50 or 60 percent of the scenes and that's just that process of like you get to know

00:29:49.200 the story better and better every time you rewrite it um so yeah hopefully that answers that question

00:29:54.220 so it's been a very long time coming for you for this this week yeah I think so but yeah it's like

00:29:59.920 it doesn't feel like it feels like a long time and also five minutes at the same time which

00:30:04.540 is a strange feeling but yeah definitely a lot of hard work yeah another audience question has

00:30:09.660 come through and they did ask what is the bit of the book you cut that you miss the most

00:30:14.540 it's a good one I'm trying to think well Penguin okay let me just say Penguin Random House that's

00:30:20.540 my favorite corporation they were so great like my editor Catherine Knight and my publisher Nikki

00:30:27.560 Chris they just like went there was nothing was too crazy they were just like yes do this and you

00:30:33.280 know I think there's nothing I can think of straight away that was cut that I really missed

00:30:38.660 But something I was really glad I rewrote was actually the first two or three chapters were completely brand new last year.

00:30:46.160 Previously, Marnie worked in a bar and, like, the way that she met Rose was completely different.

00:30:51.780 The way that she was brought into ritual was completely different.

00:30:54.540 And it just was a little bit more, there was, like, more, like, melancholy to it.

00:30:59.320 And I think I realised I was like, oh, I need to hook people in with something, like, lots of jokes.

00:31:04.980 Like, you know, hopefully it's quite funny.

00:31:06.820 I think it's funny.

00:31:08.660 And that's, like, how I can kind of get people on side

00:31:11.600 to, like, let the story get a bit stranger.

00:31:14.740 So, yeah, I don't think there's anything that I missed,

00:31:17.160 but I'm really glad that I rewrote that.

00:31:19.280 Because it was one of those things where I was, like, in, you know,

00:31:22.540 the period where you do your structural edit, it's, like, six or eight weeks.

00:31:26.140 It's, like, not a long time.

00:31:27.700 And, you know, they don't say rewrite the whole book,

00:31:30.800 but that's the point where you make the big changes.

00:31:33.400 And I think Nikki and Catherine, they were, like,

00:31:36.020 we're happy with the beginning.

00:31:36.960 and I was like no I really think I need to do this and they were like okay but you don't have

00:31:40.860 to stress about it and then once I turned it in we were like oh yes like this is it so yeah did

00:31:46.040 you always start with that prologue yes that the prologue and the very end were the same actually

00:31:51.980 there was an epilogue once and it was so bad that my my agent was like what no and we called it

00:31:58.920 straight away so aside from that the beginning and the end always the same yeah because I want

00:32:05.840 to know because this book is of course fictional but a lot of the characters legally there are some

00:32:12.100 people here from my own but a lot of the characters feel so real right and a lot of the people you're

00:32:18.540 speaking about writing about uh women in the 20s and 30s live in melbourne you know half of them

00:32:24.340 live on a specific tram line right yeah how do you get nervous about your friends or people in

00:32:32.420 your life thinking that you're drawing from them in any other way I don't well all that there's no

00:32:38.600 one in this book that is like one person from my life like any all of it is it's so fictionalized

00:32:45.500 but I think like I think most writers would agree I mean I can't speak for everyone but I think

00:32:50.700 you're always drawing on inspiration from your real life but it's never like this is this person

00:32:55.960 it's always like a few things from this person a few things from a famous person a few things you

00:33:00.380 completely made up I think um so I don't I don't feel nervous about that just because I know that

00:33:04.540 there's yeah without there's no one in this book that is you know a hundred percent someone that I

00:33:09.940 met and as we said before one of the big themes is men and not liking men misandry yeah but there's

00:33:20.260 another through line and it's kind of mixed emotions when it comes to some of the central

00:33:26.040 female characters and their relationships so we've got like desire jealousy it kind of feels

00:33:32.200 like it's always you don't know what's coming next how did you want to capture these complicated

00:33:37.600 female dynamics in your novel um I think I mean I don't know that it was super conscious at the

00:33:44.260 beginning I think I like set out to make something where there was like no clear-cut answer as far

00:33:50.460 as like who's good who's bad who like you know I think I wanted to make something that was very

00:33:57.180 naughty and you know I don't think there's anyone in the book that um maybe there's like one or two

00:34:03.640 people that are truly like 100% good or 100% bad or whatever so I think um yeah I think people are

00:34:10.720 so complicated and I I don't I'm like very lucky in my real life that I think um I have like been

00:34:16.660 blessed with like some really really amazing um women and I have like really strong female

00:34:22.880 friendships but I think in that like work environment I I just thought it was interesting 0.95

00:34:28.620 to like find all of the ways that particularly competing for Luna's attention the CEO of the

00:34:33.820 company like she is so charismatic that it's like everyone in that company 100% of the time is just 0.80

00:34:39.160 like please notice me because she just carries herself with um there's just something about her

00:34:44.940 like everyone just falls in love with her straight away and I think I just wanted to show that like 1.00

00:34:48.900 that competing kind of yeah what do we think of it do we want to be her do we want to fuck her do 0.98

00:34:54.240 we want to like be her best friend like what is it and yeah that's kind of what I wanted to explore 0.99

00:34:58.000 in this book as well ritual is not just a beauty company it is quite heavily tied into

00:35:05.220 wellness and health and in our real life those industries are becoming increasingly blurred

00:35:10.580 um there's a question that came through and somebody had asked what role do you see beauty

00:35:15.740 playing in the health space as beauty greatness greatly influences health and we're seeing that

00:35:21.860 I guess in the influencer realm too then I'm like does it like I think it's that idea of like

00:35:26.580 we think that like you can tell what someone's insides look like just from the outside and that's

00:35:32.660 not true right I think we've proved that you know so I think it's like isn't there like an

00:35:38.380 evolutionary thing where like the evolution of beauty was that you wanted to appear really

00:35:42.760 attractive to someone so that they knew you were like a good mate to like build a family I don't

00:35:47.940 know where I got that don't like it sounds right um I think it's yeah I think that that correlation

00:35:55.500 I don't think it's always truthful but it definitely is something that we talk about a lot

00:36:00.520 particularly with yeah the rise of wellness culture and you know um there's just like so

00:36:05.000 many ways that we can quote unquote look after ourselves that maybe like are we looking after

00:36:10.780 ourselves like things like ice baths like I read something the other day like I do enjoy an ice

00:36:15.020 bath from time to time but I read something the other day about like it's actually not that great

00:36:19.340 for women's hormones to to get in these really cold bars but it's like we've kind of been told

00:36:25.120 that like this is gonna fix you and stuff so I think yeah the rules around how we look after 0.95

00:36:31.540 ourselves how best to look after ourselves they're always changing and I think that's intentional

00:36:35.400 but yeah I think they are definitely the two are linked for sure the brand of ritual we want to

00:36:43.140 know I mean I know that penguin kind of created some products for the marketing what was like the

00:36:49.680 mood boarding like and the like did you see the product range was it real to you yeah I have to

00:36:56.620 say so my editor katherine knight we call her kk she is okay so when the book was like acquired

00:37:03.320 very quickly my publisher was like um and you'll be working with katherine because she knows

00:37:07.420 everything about the beauty industry ever and i was like okay great and then we started working

00:37:11.960 together and i was like oh no she really knows everything about the beauty industry ever which

00:37:15.480 was so helpful it was like a pot of gold for me because i had worked for this company that that

00:37:20.580 didn't make makeup didn't um wasn't like i said particularly femme focused it was much more

00:37:25.700 personal care and I had like I think in the first few drafts it was very heavily modeled off Glossier

00:37:32.220 like and I think it still is and I think that's fine to say and I think I had there were like

00:37:37.500 broad strokes in the first few drafts and then by the time last year when we were doing like those

00:37:42.500 final edits Catherine was like we we had so many conversations about you know she was like there

00:37:48.960 could be it could be like this from Westman Atelier it could be like this from Rare Beauty and

00:37:52.560 um we we talked about that for a long time and um i think yeah without her the um image of what

00:38:00.600 ritual cosmetica is it would wouldn't be nearly as clear um and then i think yeah when um the

00:38:06.920 amazing people in the marketing team at penguin were like we're gonna make these products for

00:38:11.240 the photo assets it was so exciting and you know we catherine also helped them we like all worked

00:38:16.420 together to kind of come up with what would be on the posters and um we took like i would say it's

00:38:21.680 like 90% true to like how it's described in the book and there were some things that we were like

00:38:25.220 oh practically you know let it be like this but we wanted it to be as true to how it's described

00:38:30.260 in the book as possible. Did writing a ritual change your relationship to beauty? Yes I think

00:38:36.500 so well I also do think that Lee and this is like I guess partially answers this question but

00:38:42.540 when I worked for the company that shall remain nameless it was like you didn't go to work in

00:38:48.620 like a full beat you went to work in like you know kind of like minimal makeup and you know it was

00:38:53.420 like toned down but also I got so much skincare for free that then when I left I was like oh no

00:39:00.600 I have to pay for skincare and so I think since I have since I left the company I've like done a lot

00:39:08.220 more like purchasing in the space and like spent a lot more time being like oh what do I like

00:39:11.960 and obviously like the makeup that I used didn't change hugely but I think through writing it I

00:39:17.320 also became more curious about what was out there and um yeah did a lot of research as far as like

00:39:22.260 yeah what already exists and on the topic of mood boarding and researching something we were talking

00:39:28.300 about just earlier is the soundtrack of this book um what was your favorite music to listen to while

00:39:35.780 writing that was asked by georgia oh well um the real answer is like classical vibes for writing

00:39:42.420 on spotify um but no i do listen to like a lot of um film soundtracks when i write and i actually

00:39:50.600 yeah a lot of like there's this film called to die for has anyone seen it it's a nicole kidman

00:39:56.280 film from 1995 it's everyone go home and watch it it's amazing um it's like visually the most

00:40:02.620 striking i just love it it's it's like so yummy to me and the soundtrack to that is only on youtube

00:40:08.660 and I don't know that the original compositions for the movie I don't know that there's that many

00:40:13.080 original music cues so the whole thing is like 20 minutes and there was like a period of time

00:40:17.420 where I would only listen to that while I was writing and so it would be like this 20 minute

00:40:21.040 loop like all day and then I was like oh I can't listen to that anymore but um yeah a lot of like

00:40:27.560 film soundtracks for anything that was like yeah erotic thrillers like a lot of 80s music a lot of

00:40:32.600 synth heavy music um and yeah the playlist that I made kind of as I was writing they weren't

00:40:38.360 songs that i was literally listening to while i was writing because it's it's hard to write when

00:40:42.420 there's lyrics um in the music but i did make a playlist on spotify that kind of felt like

00:40:47.660 the vibes of the piece and um yeah i listened to that a lot if i like went on a walk and came back

00:40:52.920 to my desk and stuff yeah both jazz and i work as writers um in our regular lives and i've also got

00:41:00.120 this like one movie soundtrack that i've got on when i like need to lock in and really get

00:41:04.320 concentrate what's yours minari if anyone knows this beautiful like american korean um film yeah

00:41:11.280 very like classical music um but there's been a few questions come through about the actual

00:41:17.220 process of writing and i think writing can seem so romanticized and beautiful and you're at your

00:41:22.160 desk you know overlooking something beautiful but it's actually kind of like a freaky solitary

00:41:27.240 activity it's crazy it's like like I think yeah there's the romanticized version is like

00:41:33.480 you have a beautiful desk but I'm like if I'm like if it's crunch time I'm in bed I am ruining

00:41:39.600 my upper trap muscles I'm like my spine is I have to go to the physio when I'm done like it's it's

00:41:45.940 like a gremlin mode I think I think but you know there's like I think there's periods where you

00:41:50.460 like sit at the desk and you're like wow I'm a writer and then you're like oh the deadline's in

00:41:55.020 five days you know um yeah was that what did that answer the question yeah well kind of I think I

00:42:01.080 just want more people to kind of lift the veil or oh totally yeah under the curtain and actually

00:42:06.580 what does it look like writing a book like this is the glamorous bit this week totally but you've

00:42:11.520 worked like three years ago yes yeah definitely I think as well because I wrote the um I wrote

00:42:16.400 yeah all drafts of the book I think before we sold it like while I was either working full-time or

00:42:21.180 four days a week and that it's interesting because now I've just finished a draft of a new novel that

00:42:26.320 I wrote when I had the freedom to write full-time and I actually funnily enough and I don't know if

00:42:32.680 this is like me kind of um what's the word like misremembering things for the sake of the story

00:42:37.920 but um I think it was almost easier to write the book when I was working because there's you have

00:42:43.380 such a limited window in which to write the thing and if you don't write then you're not getting it

00:42:49.600 done and then you know you have to go to work so I would always write in the mornings from like six

00:42:54.320 to eight and I was lucky to be able to work from home a lot during that period so I would generally

00:42:58.820 write from six to eight and then get ready and then log on at nine and then there was a period

00:43:02.560 of time where my um my hours at work were shifting from like starting at nine to starting at ten to

00:43:07.800 starting at eleven so that would give me more time um but yeah then then I think you know what's that

00:43:14.380 thing there's some thing where um the time it takes to complete a task expands to be the time

00:43:20.420 that you have so if you then have a lot of time you'll be like oh I can start writing in the

00:43:24.260 afternoon and then it's the afternoon and you've like looked at so much internet that you're like

00:43:28.800 I can't have an original thought yeah yeah going back to ritual itself we've got a question from

00:43:35.580 the audience which is what's your favorite cult or cultish thing what is my favorite cult or cultish

00:43:41.860 think gosh there's like so many things while you're thinking like our definition of cults has

00:43:48.140 expanded so much I don't know if anyone else is a fan of the podcast sounds like a cult but they

00:43:53.280 deep dive into everyday things like Disney adults or Taylor Swift or whatever and it's like you know

00:44:00.700 and they kind of want to expand that definition to be like hey we're all kind of part of a cult

00:44:04.840 definitely yeah well there's so many things I'm really fascinated by like stan culture I think

00:44:11.160 it's so interesting i literally only got twitter or x whatever you're supposed to call it now um

00:44:17.700 because there's this like rachel vice stan account and she this girl posts she actually i think she's

00:44:24.500 from melbourne maybe i've looked at this page too many times i actually just became like really

00:44:28.520 obsessed with actually the person who ran this account because i was like she's so sweet we need

00:44:32.120 to protect her but i think that um the parasocial relationships and the intensity of of that in

00:44:38.200 like that stand culture kind of online is very interesting but I also recently um for something

00:44:43.720 else that I was writing did like a deep dive on human design does anyone know what's that oh man

00:44:48.920 it's like astrology-esque it's like kooky astrology um like another way to it's kind of

00:44:54.840 like astrology and Myers-Briggs put together um and it's crazy the the thing that I loved about

00:45:01.340 it is like there are so many people on Instagram like there's a girl I went to high school with

00:45:04.680 who's like a yoga teacher in Mexico and she's like really hot and like she has this amazing life and

00:45:10.100 she does like human design readings and I didn't really know what it was and then I was like I'm

00:45:14.320 gonna google this and then I found out it's this like whole personality typology thing that is

00:45:19.760 based on now this is like gonna be paraphrased so feel free to google it but this guy was like

00:45:25.940 in Mykonos on drugs and he was like some CEO guy he was really rich and he like had this four-day

00:45:32.740 trip where he said a voice spoke to him directly and for four days consistently he wrote this

00:45:40.880 crazy methodology for how to define people and when you put in your when you get your like human

00:45:46.580 design results it's like illegible like you can't it's so hard to understand and it looks like the

00:45:52.160 ramblings of a madman and it is that but it's like a real serious thing that people pay for and I was

00:45:57.000 like that is so interesting to me like that's theater like that's that's amazing yeah hate to

00:46:04.620 break it to you as well like i recently learned this was from a podcast called maintenance phase 0.83

00:46:09.600 that maya briggs is like not backed up by anything scientific nothing it was just the uh maybe a

00:46:15.300 mother-daughter i think they were just like should we do this yeah like i think that was it and then

00:46:21.060 they just stereotype people yeah but that's that's amazing

00:46:25.260 that's like that's wow like that's what a reason to be alive like you know and even when we find

00:46:33.860 out that these things aren't necessarily real also love languages yes uh i still kind of love

00:46:40.120 being involved totally yeah like we just buy into the cult of it all yes that's like yeah that's

00:46:46.560 amazing it's storytelling like it's it's really cool yeah I mean it's it's damaging sometimes but

00:46:50.960 it's like from afar I think it's it's there's something in our psychology that like as humans

00:46:56.960 like all we want is to be known we want someone to say like this is who you are and I think that

00:47:00.520 like ties into the book because like a lot of what Marnie is looking for is someone to just be like

00:47:05.480 hey I've figured you out and this is who you are and so now you can stop like running around and

00:47:11.680 the like sad I don't think it's sad actually I think it's like an empowering truth is that like

00:47:16.540 no one can do that like no personality test is gonna yeah fill the void and you actually have

00:47:23.140 to like kind of make yourself for yourself but yeah we're always looking for something to point

00:47:29.260 to and be like that's the kind of person I am and yeah like I buy Glossier that's the kind of person

00:47:33.700 i am yeah very relevant um we've got an anonymous question as well on that point which is that

00:47:41.340 mani as a protagonist is quite a passive character when compared to luna so is that what you're just

00:47:47.560 saying kind of like the motivation for mani yeah i think when i very first started writing and this

00:47:53.960 is not really you know how it ended up in the actual finished book but i was kind of looking

00:47:59.040 at like my um when I was in my 20s I was I had a relationship that like was quite damaging to my

00:48:05.240 sense of self and I was very young but I thought I was very old and I think when I got out of it

00:48:10.620 um I just kind of looked back on it and was like how did I let all those things happen but

00:48:16.540 I I really was kind of like I was saying before I was really looking for someone to tell me who

00:48:20.860 I was and I met someone who did that and it was you know it was really bad for my life but in the

00:48:26.400 moment it felt like oh thank god this person's gonna like figure me out so I think yeah I

00:48:31.280 definitely wanted to write about someone who um yeah she's like repeating this cycle and she's

00:48:36.500 she's not really learning from it and and maybe she's like read enough pop psychology to like

00:48:42.340 see that in herself but she hasn't she's not going to do the work to actually fix it and I think

00:48:47.220 you know I think there's a lot of talk about like passive protagonists in a negative sense but I do

00:48:52.900 think that like there's I find that very interesting to explore and like you know we only

00:48:57.820 get one life like why do we you know do these things that will hurt us or why do we take a

00:49:04.360 back seat in our own lives like what's that about and are we able to actually answer that I'm not

00:49:09.120 sure but um yeah and Marnie's housemate was she kind of like the voice of reason for the reader

00:49:15.680 yeah I well yes I mean that's that's how I kind of viewed it like I wanted Carly to be that at

00:49:20.920 the beginning because we're in Marnie's POV like Marnie's POV is like so warped like as all of our

00:49:27.340 the way that we look at the world is so influenced by like who we think we are and where we think we

00:49:31.500 are in the world but I wanted it to be the in the beginning Marnie's like let me tell you about 0.96

00:49:35.520 Carly she's kind of a bitch and but that's not true that's like that's Marnie's projection and

00:49:40.560 then as we as the book like unfolds it's like oh Carly actually does genuinely care for Marnie and 0.96

00:49:46.440 she wants to help her but at that point you know Marnie's too far gone and um yeah I think kind of

00:49:53.420 going back to the question before about like the dynamics between the women like so our projections

00:49:59.120 that we place onto people you know form so many of our relationships and I think Marnie in particular 0.97

00:50:04.560 she projects so much onto everyone and and maybe if she could just stop doing that her life would

00:50:09.660 be a lot easier is there something that you would tell your younger self that was in that relationship

00:50:15.680 or do you think hindsight and time I don't know because I like yeah but yes definitely I would be

00:50:21.740 like get out um but also like yeah so many of like the wonderful things like that I now I'm

00:50:30.420 like really proud of myself for and the things that now feel like authentically who I am like

00:50:35.000 I only uh realized that in the wake of that relationship so I think you know maybe yeah

00:50:41.480 don't don't go out with that man he is 40 you are 22 um but aside from that just like you know

00:50:50.780 you live and you learn it all shapes you yeah it's all we tell ourselves yeah um so sadly we

00:50:57.860 are coming to the very end of our talk we've had such a good time chatting with you but on the

00:51:03.160 podcast every interview and every week maggie and i ask each other things that we've been loving

00:51:09.680 watching reading or listening to so we would love to hear your recommendation yes do you want like

00:51:15.400 one for each or just one thing as many as you'll give us but usually just one okay okay reading

00:51:22.140 okay I'll start with this one so um this is not something I just read super recently I read it a

00:51:26.240 couple of months ago but it's like the last thing I read that I absolutely loved and it's a book by

00:51:30.280 my friend her name is Amy Taylor it is called Ruins and it comes out in I think July and I was lucky

00:51:36.360 enough to read an early um version of it amy wrote a book called search history yeah they came out in

00:51:42.220 2023 i think um and we met because we had the same agent and she's just the coolest she's the best

00:51:48.320 and she's an amazing writer and this new book ruins it's like an erotic thriller it's set in

00:51:52.900 greece over a hot summer it's um there's so much in it that's so interesting and um i just loved

00:52:00.220 it i think everyone's gonna love it so i just recommend that everyone pre-order ruins by amy

00:52:04.080 but um as far as watching i love apple tv plus i love literally everything that they do um another

00:52:12.040 one of my favorite corporations um i'm a die-hard severance fan so if you haven't watched severance

00:52:17.860 like absolutely go and watch severance um but recently i found myself like weirdly really

00:52:24.280 into that new john ham show your friends and neighbors which is like so not something i would

00:52:29.220 ever watch because it's like a man doing stuff um but it's really good and he's so hot

00:52:36.240 sorry to be crass but yeah i don't know if i legitimately recommend it but that's

00:52:42.520 honestly what i am watching do you guys have something that you're watching listening to

00:52:47.920 speaking of apple tv another corporation that i love uh the studio is a tv series

00:52:54.400 up binging right now. What's that guy's name? Seth Rogen. Yes, yes, yes. So that's a really

00:52:59.720 fun comedy hit. Do you have anything, Jazz? What have I been reading? I feel like my whole

00:53:06.520 week has been ritual. The New Hunger Games book. Yes. Oh, true. Just hark back to 16

00:53:14.160 year old era. And everything on the Melbourne Writers Festival. Line up, of course. Yes,

00:53:19.280 Of course, of course, of course.

00:53:20.780 Of course, of course.

00:53:21.900 Yeah, of course.

00:53:22.760 So, Chloe, where can our audience buy Ritual?

00:53:26.620 In the shops.

00:53:28.000 Yeah.

00:53:28.760 Yeah, you can.

00:53:29.840 All good bookstores.

00:53:31.400 Also, Amazon.

00:53:33.380 Don't do Amazon.

00:53:35.900 Audible, you can do it.

00:53:37.040 All audiobook platforms, all e-reader platforms, you can...

00:53:42.300 Yeah, that's where you can buy it, yeah.

00:53:44.080 And also...

00:53:45.020 Oh, I'm sorry, they were waving at the back of the room.

00:53:46.720 Actually, sorry, that was a leading question.

00:53:48.700 You can actually buy a copy of Rachel at the beautiful table

00:53:51.880 at the back hosted by Readings.

00:53:53.100 We love Readings.

00:53:54.580 Support local.

00:53:55.400 Sorry, that took a while to get there.

00:53:57.780 Well, thank you so much for your time today, Chloe,

00:54:00.760 and for joining us.

00:54:02.600 Thank you so much.

00:54:03.160 I've had such a nice time.

00:54:04.260 Thank you for coming.

00:54:04.860 Of course.

00:54:05.300 We also wanted to give a shout-out and thank you

00:54:08.020 to Melbourne Writers Festival.

00:54:09.540 Thank you for all the incredible work and events you put on.

00:54:12.740 Special thank you to Maya Honey-Holmes and Veronica Sullivan

00:54:16.460 who have helped put this together

00:54:17.980 and also thank you to the lovely Wheeler Centre

00:54:20.880 that we are all sitting in right now.

00:54:23.400 Thank you for championing ideas and books.

00:54:26.940 And thank you everyone for joining us.

00:54:28.740 Thank you so much.

Culture Club - June 02, 2025

The Cult Of Beauty With Author Chloe Elisabeth Wilson

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