Culture Club - The Death Of Criticism, Cornell Seven, & Influencer “Girls”

00:00:00.000 Neighbours is being re-released for Vertical Video, Taylor Swift fan culture gone wild

00:00:09.480 and the Cornell 7 case. I'm Maggie Zhao and I'm Jasmine Wallace and you're listening to Culture

00:00:15.020 Club where true writers and editors analyse the arts, pop culture and the internet. Today we're

00:00:20.900 on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nations. We would like to pay our

00:00:25.400 respects to Elders past and present and extend this to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander

00:00:30.360 listeners today. I feel like I'm a tech bro saying this, but we're beta testing something

00:00:38.260 on Culture Club. It was actually a listener's idea. Yes. Holly? Thank you, Holly. Thank you,

00:00:44.660 Holly. We've been doing Bookmarked for a long time where we share a recommendation from the week

00:00:49.620 and we thought, well, Holly thought, we should open it up to the community and our listeners.

00:00:54.420 so from here on out we are asking you the listeners to send through a voice note of

00:01:00.900 your own recommendation of something that you've enjoyed reading watching or listening to

00:01:05.360 we just ask that it's like an under 90 second clip you can also send it as a video or a voice

00:01:11.460 note and where can they send that to cultureclubmail at gmail.com and then we'll slot it

00:01:17.600 into the episode yay so we'll be trying that out later today but guys we actually are depending

00:01:22.400 on you to send things in so so you it's your the balls in your court it'd be really embarrassing

00:01:28.300 if no one's no that's what I mean so like guys don't embarrass us I'm really excited for this

00:01:33.860 weekend because I've got a friend's birthday party and I would say this is one of the hottest

00:01:39.260 hottest dates in my calendar this is the fifth year she's done it is it the bagel party yes

00:01:44.820 I knew you would guess this yeah my lovely friend Leah this is her tradition she throws the most

00:01:51.120 extravagant bagel party every year as you can imagine bagel stacks and then like the best

00:01:57.220 ingredients and spread you've ever seen her partner's a chef um it's just it's amazing and

00:02:03.040 i can't wait how did the bagel party start naturally just like an organic idea to her

00:02:08.520 to make sense just gonna throw a party have everyone over and then it became such a hit

00:02:14.760 yeah it's for her birthday okay i should specify the bagel birthday party yeah oh i have foam

00:02:21.100 yeah I know that's so fun it's so good I feel like you also just went like I swear I know he's

00:02:27.820 every once every five years but I feel like the last one was really recent but it just shows how

00:02:31.640 fast time's gone I don't even we're being very sentimental recently we've been talking a lot

00:02:35.920 off mic just time's moving far let's not get into it anyway our friend of the pod lol we were talking

00:02:43.000 about that last night someone was like I want to be on a pod and then someone was like no I just

00:02:46.620 want to be friend of the pod and then our friend Ali was like every time you guys reference me as

00:02:50.760 friend of the pod it's like a title but friend of the pod um ADK was talking about the concept of

00:02:56.980 future nostalgia I was like saying like oh I'm just feeling a bit of this way a bit nostalgic

00:03:01.260 and she goes I think that's what Dua Lipa coined as a future nostalgia I was like way the whole

00:03:06.860 concept of the album seeing in a new light yeah as in like when you're living through a moment

00:03:11.720 and already nostalgic for it yeah yeah don't here we go jazz crying three minutes in

00:03:18.260 i'm pmsing okay yeah same okay also like why are we synced it's too much to pmsing girls on a pod

00:03:27.240 i've been so irritable this week but it's great like almost a little bit mask off like i don't

00:03:32.200 care like i i was acting a bit more myself i was feeling not rude but like less like

00:03:39.460 less sheeny all the time interesting because as listeners know i struggle with pmdd and i'm on

00:03:47.120 that side of the algorithm and a lot of people saying that sometimes rather than being like oh

00:03:52.080 I'm I'm my worst self in PMS it's almost like I'm my truer self it's a little bit woo-woo for me

00:03:58.880 sometimes it taps it too much into like feminine energy which can be like almost right-wing uh 0.86

00:04:05.000 what do they call it like rabbit hole stuff so I'm like you know keep it a distance but I do like

00:04:09.660 that concept of it's almost like your rawest self and what you won't put up with and what's true

00:04:15.200 you're like less tolerable to stuff so it shows you what you're actually kind of compromising on

00:04:19.100 a little bit but i don't think we've ever like been at the same you know ever synced which is

00:04:24.220 weird surely statistically at some point yeah but i just feel like my pms is like extra this month

00:04:31.260 but i like that reframing i'm gonna take that on board thank you

00:04:35.400 the iconic australian tv show neighbors which famously ended recently it's now coming back

00:04:44.660 but in a very new way it is being recut into vertical videos yeah and the focus of the first

00:04:52.440 two storylines will be about margot robbie's character and she was on that show from 2008 to

00:04:58.640 2011 did you ever like watch neighbors or watch her on neighbors that was the only era of neighbors

00:05:04.880 that i watched margot's era i do love seeing i am a victim of the short video i guess conspiracy

00:05:12.280 like I love seeing very infrequently I'd see old clips of her on that and I just love her

00:05:17.420 really Australian accent yeah it's so sweet I think seeing where she's gone to from the Gold

00:05:24.180 Coast a la Jacob Elordi as well you also feel that sense of like a little bit of patriotic pride over

00:05:30.100 it but this is super interesting I think the TV show is no longer which is a real tragedy given

00:05:36.880 how many careers it launched how many jobs it created in Australia and Melbourne as well

00:05:42.120 it was definitely like a launching pad for so many different you know directors editors everyone

00:05:46.340 um so that's really sad but I think it's really interesting that this is how people are consuming

00:05:52.200 media and content now yeah I mean that's a big generalization of course I wouldn't say that

00:05:58.600 everyone like watches tv on their phones but it's fascinating to me that this is something that was

00:06:04.340 considered like not worthy enough to be created anymore yet it's like heyday I guess for our

00:06:11.360 generation is going to be on vertical video to relive it is that kind of nostalgia I think yeah

00:06:17.560 so they're picking two storylines of Margot Robbie's and they will be chopped up into micro

00:06:22.480 episodes in total those will add up to around 150 minutes of content I personally hate watching

00:06:30.260 things on my phone like that I know I just said oh yeah and I've seen some clips of Margot in the

00:06:34.760 past but famously when I'm on my TikTok I don't want to be watching snippets from scenes of movies

00:06:40.660 or tv shows especially if I haven't seen them whereas I have friends being like I'll ask them

00:06:46.220 oh have you seen this they're like oh yeah I've watched that on tiktok no what they mean is I

00:06:49.780 watched a few scenes I hate that I get served like Grey's Anatomy which I've never seen a full

00:06:55.420 episode but I've seen little like the famous clips I saw you know it's like just one storyline like

00:07:00.800 one surgery has gone wrong and you do for myself getting sucked into it it's interesting it is a

00:07:06.980 growing content field there's I think two parts to it there's one which is this like the edited

00:07:13.160 down quick cuts there's also a lot of platform first like original content being made so Front

00:07:20.000 of the Pod ADK as well as Tom my partner they love this one called Eavesdropping and there's

00:07:25.500 like a whole like it's like a high production like high budget like really like incredible IP I guess

00:07:31.800 I don't personally watch it but you know you can be a Patreon you get early drops of it and

00:07:36.640 they're literally like waiting for like the next episode to drop i think that's different and i

00:07:40.940 think that's great yeah that's great i feel like that's building community as well has tom ever

00:07:45.020 said why he likes that type of content i think it's less about it being like oh i like it because

00:07:50.140 it's short and vertical it just i like that's like that show yeah and that's just how it's

00:07:55.560 being formatted who's behind this vertical video rebrand of neighbors it is rosemary media they'll

00:08:03.220 be cutting down these videos and the thing is they're going to be putting it on their own

00:08:07.560 platform it's called EPIS. It stands for short episodes big shows. I'm going to say that. The

00:08:14.400 thing is they use this program called Red Snapper which is their propriety production workflow that

00:08:20.220 uses AI. So this is where I think the conversation gets very murky. It's like wait how can they just

00:08:27.840 like what is this a great agreement where they can take all this content and then essentially

00:08:33.860 use it for their own benefit yeah well who's getting the credit who's getting the is there

00:08:41.440 any kind of um royalties attached to it that's the question and it's something that people are

00:08:47.020 speaking up about so neighbor star stefan dennis actually slammed this concept and spoke to the

00:08:51.960 herald sun recently saying that the microdrama is quote unbelievably invasive morally and

00:08:57.720 legally wrong and somehow it appears we can't do anything about it i've also seen the meaa union

00:09:03.860 media union in australia uh condemning the use of this and i think especially when there are so

00:09:10.080 many film and tv jobs that don't exist anymore and i have firsthand experience in this because

00:09:15.420 my partner laurie works in the film tv industry and all of his work at the moment is just like

00:09:20.560 contract like short contract like come on for two months come oh it might go to three months

00:09:24.600 I might go to four months. This could be someone's job to like go through the library, find the best

00:09:29.140 pieces, cut it down. But it's just another cost cutting measure for big production houses, for

00:09:33.880 studios. They don't want to pay people, you know, a salary, a full-time salary or a living wage

00:09:38.700 to do this. I know I'm speaking generally, this is just like from the headlines as well,

00:09:43.620 but it's disappointing.

00:09:54.600 Pete Davidson is back on the media circuit and he's making some unsavoury comments.

00:10:01.620 I kept sending you like so many different clips of this one Variety interview and you were like

00:10:07.940 not the Variety press turning on him. I know. Well, they're not turning on him. He's saying it.

00:10:13.320 He's saying it. But the way that these clips are being cut up, I'm like, Variety, we know what

00:10:17.680 you're doing and I kind of love it. Okay, let me- We're talking about it. Yeah, we are. So one of

00:10:23.160 the biggest videos that people are talking about at the moment is that pete davidson went on

00:10:27.300 variety's youtube channel for a game and it's called staten island or not staten island um the

00:10:32.860 game is like because he's from there they'll say random things like living at home or christina

00:10:37.680 aguilera and he has to be like they're staten island they're not and explain why okay oh the

00:10:42.740 clip that's making the rounds is about him like crapping on social media influences or should i

00:10:48.600 say girls um we're gonna play the clip in a second but what i found interesting was i thought they

00:10:55.580 asked him about like influences they didn't he just brought it up himself so he dug himself into

00:11:02.620 this own hole he was like i have a grievance it makes me sad you know and girls are just talking 0.99

00:11:07.820 to themselves on there and they're like okay come get ready with me and i'm like who the fuck are 0.99

00:11:14.500 you what do you do nothing what the fuck is this they make 40 million a year what and then i'm like 0.99

00:11:22.840 the world's broken there's girls by age that go on tiktok and they'll like mutter like a thing and 0.99

00:11:30.200 then do this like dance and i'm like what the fuck are you doing this is insane there's no one else 0.97

00:11:37.020 see how fucking insane and lame this is and these girls are like super famous like everyone's like 0.98

00:11:42.920 oh my god i can't believe and i'm like what i'm like what he sounds like donald duck 0.96

00:11:51.300 i think this is so it's made even more funny that his very recent ex-partner elsie hewitt

00:12:00.280 is a model but she also has 1.1 million followers on instagram yeah like i would consider elsie

00:12:05.060 more of a she's an actor she's a model but she is also a like internet girl

00:12:10.680 um so i feel like he has a little bee in his bonnet about that but when i saw this clip i

00:12:17.760 genuinely rolled my eyes so far back into my head i think it's the oldest in the 2020 2026 now i

00:12:24.620 think it's the oldest conversation of the decade oh why are you surprised by this still there was

00:12:29.780 this top comment from max belug there who's like the content creator on tiktok that blonde boy

00:12:34.800 boy um and he said mind you this man fumbled ariana grande and kim kardashian so i won't 0.53

00:12:41.800 be listening to him facts and another one was like men kick balls and earn millions that's

00:12:47.480 like a true argument but i also do think it's that's a different conversation like i think

00:12:52.460 because that's like you know a sport that you play from like a young child and there's you know

00:12:56.580 different but also there's different skills you need to be influencer what's that um the meme

00:13:01.920 from Michaela the TikTok influencer who's like triving an influencer for a day people I'm not

00:13:08.380 saying that their jobs are like the hardest jobs in the world or anything I think we've had this

00:13:12.300 conversation a few times but there is a freaking skill to it and I'm so sick of people like this

00:13:18.000 saying you know oh they do nothing and they get paid 40 million dollars yeah yeah first of all

00:13:22.840 that is like one to two percent of the influence population but it's also a massive economy now

00:13:27.680 the creator economy is such a huge booming economy there are skills involved in this whether

00:13:32.660 it's like making the videos fostering community it's a job yeah and Pete Davidson he is an actor

00:13:39.160 he's a comedian so he's performing in front of screens and cameras you know it's just maybe

00:13:44.040 influencers are on a little screen screen and he is also on little screens aka phones but I mean

00:13:50.220 it's weird to attack especially and very much gender the conversation as well and especially

00:13:56.220 as an entertainer at the end of the day both of them influencers and pete davidson are entertaining

00:14:00.640 people i saw another comment that was like you're doing the same but you're just on a stage like

00:14:04.160 you're talking into a camera you're talking to people you're telling stories which is what

00:14:08.120 influencers are doing as well i think he was triggered by his ex to be honest one quick thing

00:14:13.640 though a lot of comments were agreeing with him and i do want to give space to this because at the end

00:14:19.180 of the day under capitalism it is wild that a few people are being paid millions of dollars for this

00:14:25.060 type of labor when obviously most of the world's population are not. So like, yeah, it's like a

00:14:31.080 wild situation we're in, but that's just celebrity culture in general. Like that's, come on, Pete.

00:14:47.580 Content warning before this next segment, we'll be discussing sexual assault and drugging.

00:14:52.380 The biggest story of this week is a Cornell 7 rape lawsuit that has come about.

00:14:59.220 Seeing this story, which we'll get into some of the details, was such a shock to the system.

00:15:06.220 And I feel like it really sent ricochets through social media and through conversations that we're having with people this week.

00:15:13.860 On the 16th of September, a woman filed a civil lawsuit alleging that seven members of Cornell University's Chi Phi fraternity drugged and sexually assaulted her at a frat house in October of 2024.

00:15:26.780 She's now suing Cornell University, which is an Ivy League university, several of the fraternity organizations, seven current and former students, sorority organizations, and the former president of Cornell's Chi-Fi chapter, as well as a local bar and several unnamed individuals.

00:15:44.800 this has been a massive story this week as you said and interestingly it was actually broken

00:15:51.760 by student journalists which was such a silver lining I personally feel of the whole discourse

00:16:00.080 around it was like in an age where journalists are losing their job journalism is under attack

00:16:06.900 especially in the United States the fact that it was student journalists made me so proud and it

00:16:11.740 shows the importance of student journalists and journalists full stop holding powerful

00:16:16.060 businesses and individuals to account and that's what's happened here. Yes massive props to the

00:16:21.060 editorial team at the Cornell Daily Sun incredible to see their work and to see their work get that

00:16:27.600 global recognition as well. So we'll be referring to the victim survivor as Jane Doe as her identity

00:16:33.180 is protected and we're referencing from Women's Agenda who is an Australian independent publisher

00:16:40.220 here. Jane Doe alleges that she was pressured into snorting ketamine, smoking marijuana and 1.00

00:16:45.720 drinking alcohol until she was completely incapacitated. She then says that she was 0.95

00:16:50.540 raped for more than four hours and that the men invited other fraternity members to join in

00:16:55.560 through a Snapchat group chat. You probably have seen the screenshots of this Snapchat group going

00:17:01.220 around the internet. The message in it reportedly said free pussy posted while she lay unconscious 0.99

00:17:07.180 upstairs and she was only 20 years old at the time. I also think we should mention that there 0.99

00:17:12.240 is a bit of a complication in this story and you might have seen some accounts of the night

00:17:16.200 differing so we'll quickly explain that. At the time of her first reporting her sworn statement

00:17:22.160 did not allege that she was drugged against her will or gang raped and described the drug use and

00:17:27.460 sexual conduct as consensual. Her lawyer counters that apart from her first contact with campus

00:17:32.740 police no one trained in interviewing rape survivors ever spoke to her and women's agenda

00:17:38.600 noted that you know any court because this is going through the grand jury they will have to

00:17:43.420 weigh these competing accounts and these men are entitled to the presumption of innocence

00:17:48.340 they also said in the piece quote by anyone who has worked with survivors knows that a first

00:17:54.060 statement made weeks after the event by a young woman who may have been unconscious for much of

00:17:59.040 it is rarely the whole story the question worth asking is why nobody went back and asked properly

00:18:04.680 so when Jane Doe reported it at the time two of the students out of the seven were expelled

00:18:10.960 and then the other five and this has made the rounds they were given a chance to mitigate

00:18:17.400 their conduct by submitting essays which is just like a disgusting pill to swallow I think a lot

00:18:25.180 of anger has come out that that was the so-called punishment for a horrific act of violence it's

00:18:32.760 actually disgusting what made me sad this week is how not shocked I was how like desensitized I was

00:18:43.560 I was 21 when me too the me too movement began I was at university and I remember you know that

00:18:52.420 period i remember the brock turner case i remember the carry that weight visual art performance by

00:18:57.440 columbia university student emma sulkewix she carried the mattress around campus yeah she

00:19:03.380 carried the mattress she carried a mattress around her university campus after she was

00:19:08.620 allegedly raped by a fellow student in 2012 and she would not end the art piece until that person

00:19:15.680 was expelled or left the university so these were all within a couple of years of each other

00:19:21.060 and I remember at the time being so angry and outraged and this week I felt obviously I still

00:19:27.900 felt that anger but I felt a lot more sadness because I was just like these boys or men I

00:19:34.800 shouldn't even say boys these men you think that like things are going to get better when I was

00:19:39.840 at university during the Me Too movement I remember thinking like something will change now

00:19:44.000 like great we're going to have like this cultural shift and now I'm 30 and this story comes out with

00:19:49.900 men who were born in the 2000s you think that like generations of men will get better and the

00:19:57.180 fact that this is even more degrading like it's one of the most horrific cases that a university

00:20:05.100 has probably ever seen and the punishment was writing a freaking essay that's what's made me

00:20:09.380 so sad is just like it makes you feel so helpless as a woman because how is anything going to change

00:20:16.900 if this is the culture yeah I really I really agree with you I think it's been really gratifying

00:20:23.560 to see so many women um and of course it's women like speak out this week and um fueled by so much

00:20:29.960 anger and rage which is such powerful emotions but I feel like for me I couldn't even muster

00:20:33.980 that up like it's just like a like oh good okay um just like just a deep sadness and like

00:20:41.060 what is it it's like it's almost like being like oh okay yeah this is the way it is like

00:20:47.920 it's not acceptance like that sounds so terrible and so like like I'm giving up or something but

00:20:53.500 it's just like we've been here we've been here so long and even seeing very specifically with

00:20:59.100 Cornell University like the editors at the uni publication have been like they've been getting

00:21:04.680 people who used to go to that uni decades ago and being like oh nothing's changed like that

00:21:09.240 happened in their time and i even don't like focusing too much on this specific fraternity

00:21:13.920 this specific university because again lots has come out about kai kai fi and being like oh they're

00:21:20.040 specifically very problematic i think that misses a point like it's not just about them this is like

00:21:25.980 you were saying this is happening everywhere and it's just yeah i just i like i don't really have

00:21:33.660 many eloquent words to say it's just yeah actress Florence Pugh who's currently on a press tour for

00:21:42.060 East of Eden also spoke out about this this week I first saw this post because Instagram had censored

00:21:48.860 it so it was like Florence Pugh censored post and I was like what the heck like usually that's when

00:21:53.560 someone's posted about Gaza Palestine clicked into it and it was about this Cornell 7 case

00:22:00.140 So she was censored for speaking out about it. She described that experience as yet another

00:22:05.600 instance in which women can find themselves silenced, even when they're speaking about

00:22:10.020 the violence committed against them. Florence was one of the first celebrities to speak out 0.90

00:22:14.680 about this. But as we've said, it's definitely gone beyond celebrity culture. It is one of the

00:22:22.440 biggest stories in the world. And there will probably be a trial. There's still so much more

00:22:28.260 to come but I also think if you have been upset or triggered by this like just to take care of

00:22:36.040 yourself and you don't have to consume all the content around it it's something that I

00:22:39.240 when I was younger I felt like so outraged about certain things and which is such a good energy to

00:22:45.780 have but when you take it all on board on your shoulders it's a lot and especially if you have

00:22:52.240 lived experience like so many women do just take care of yourself this weekend this week and we

00:23:00.080 as a society I'm not just saying women men also have to step up as well there's been a lot of

00:23:05.540 discourse around all the boy moms they have to do more they have to raise good boys and it's like

00:23:11.020 where are the fathers and also men are socialized outside of the house you can have like the best

00:23:16.800 parents who are feminists who teach respect but there are so many influencing factors most notably

00:23:23.960 of course at the moment the internet um and algorithms but once these the culture of these

00:23:30.600 fraternities is in oh we also haven't even spoken about the fact that there were 57 other men in

00:23:36.520 that group chat who did nothing who saw the texts who probably heard about it and didn't step up and

00:23:45.420 stand up for for jane doe and i think that's also another part of the conversation is to be a good

00:23:51.560 man you don't just have to not sexually assault or rape someone you also have to intervene and i

00:23:57.080 think that's where the the culture around fraternities and just men in you know social

00:24:04.400 packs basically need to do better to end on we will read out some of the piece written by the

00:24:10.960 Cornell Daily Sun's editorial board. The piece is called Cornell Won't, We Will.

00:24:16.840 This is not a dark chapter in Cornell's history. It's a morbid pattern, only rectified with thorough

00:24:21.940 criminal investigations in the hands of parties independent of the university, the Ithaca Police

00:24:27.320 Department and the Tompkins County District Attorney. As for Cornell, administrators have

00:24:32.980 allowed the idea that enough ambiguity, enough he said, she said, enough familial connections,

00:24:38.800 enough money will allow you to get off scot-free. We refuse for this victim to be reduced to just

00:24:45.040 another story. Cornell has failed to protect its students. Cornell has failed to address

00:24:50.300 the growing issue of sexual assault on campus with its pathetic task force. Cornell has failed 0.98

00:24:55.880 the student allegedly raped by those seven men at Chi-Fi in October 2024. Cornell has failed her.

00:25:02.760 Cornell has failed us.

00:25:08.800 okay bit of a tone shift we are now going to speak about taylor swift it's been also a big

00:25:24.180 week for us retailer swift taylor's encore tracks are officially out in the world on the 25th of

00:25:29.340 september the life of a showgirl encore was released and featured four new tracks patient

00:25:34.820 zero cleveland pink clouding and babble i did listen to these when these dropped and i think

00:25:42.960 i've listened to them like just twice through but i will say maybe i need to give it a go

00:25:46.720 because i was like oh it's giving chopping mall christmas music i don't like shopping mall

00:25:52.040 um and i was like oh i don't like it like that's it so i was like oh i don't think i'm gonna listen

00:25:58.520 to it much but you do like you were telling me earlier this week that you like these songs

00:26:03.860 Surprisingly, because I was a big critic of Life of a Showgirl.

00:26:08.340 I went and saw the movie that came out with the album.

00:26:12.720 There was like a music video where she was like talking,

00:26:14.860 a music video movie thing.

00:26:16.440 Saw that.

00:26:17.180 I really did not like a few of the songs.

00:26:19.700 I still won't listen to them today.

00:26:21.380 One of them being Opalite, especially.

00:26:22.960 My friend Claire knows how much I hate that song.

00:26:25.080 I don't hate that one.

00:26:26.120 I hate it so much, which is ironic because I really like Cleveland,

00:26:29.520 which you is the more shopping mall song that is getting a lot of criticism it's super super poppy

00:26:35.940 bubbly track but this is actually the encore songs have got me back into my taylor listening habits

00:26:41.200 i actually fell off afterlife of a showgirl and now i'm listening back to all different songs

00:26:48.220 and they sound brand new again i love that i find that a lot with taylor swift when i go through

00:26:52.360 phases with her and then i return like this is a great song so we are coming from this as swifties

00:26:58.740 like we went to the era's tour we have listened to her for like 20 years we are fans i don't know

00:27:04.060 if i'd call myself a swifty outright anymore really yeah yeah and we'll get it so the reason

00:27:09.660 we're bringing up this segment is to talk about criticism and what's kind of allowed what's not

00:27:14.740 allowed and how we i guess as society um i'm in a weird spot with criticism i feel like it's

00:27:21.500 we're not allowed to say things like if you're a fan of something you can't dislike some things

00:27:25.440 whatever I feel like I wouldn't outright call myself a Swifty even though I enjoy the music

00:27:30.000 and I have been a fan for a long time because I just I'm really struggling with Taylor as a public

00:27:35.140 um figure because she is she has shown us who she is she's an apolitical billionaire so that's why

00:27:41.360 I am struggling and it has actually changed how I listen to her music are you not listening to her

00:27:48.940 i'm listening to her only a little bit on that note you posted um like a carousel for our last

00:27:56.620 episode and the first three slides were like critical of taylor and i remember seeing it and

00:28:02.420 being like oh because i didn't know i because i was like oh no i like the songs and i have my

00:28:09.060 qualms with taylor as a figure as you've said but i felt people were being like overly harsh

00:28:15.080 online about the encore songs and the tweets that you reposted got gained a lot of traction

00:28:22.780 let's read them out just because i didn't think they were that bad okay the first slide at what

00:28:27.060 point is taylor swift literally one of the most popular musicians in the history of humanity

00:28:31.120 going to stop singing about how everyone hates her the second is that taylor swift these last

00:28:36.040 few years feels like when the capital got peter that's funny chuckle and then the last one was

00:28:41.200 the difference between taylor biting back during reputation versus showgirl era is that her anger 1.00

00:28:46.600 was actually warranted back then now she's still writing about being hated for dancing awkwardly 0.89

00:28:51.580 when we're actually mad because she's a billionaire who lost her morals i do think that's one take and

00:28:58.020 we don't always agree with a hundred like what like all the tweet carousels it's just like showing

00:29:02.380 kind of the general vibe and showing what people are saying online and the criticism yeah i don't

00:29:08.800 I disagree with like oh her anger was warranted like your anger is warranted wherever you know

00:29:13.220 so yeah we gained some yeah as we said backlash I guess on that specific post some from people

00:29:20.700 who don't follow us some who do one user said unfortunate takes on Taylor Swift honestly the

00:29:25.960 point is clearly being missed slide one is funny because are you not actively hating with those

00:29:31.240 other slides it's inviting comments of hate on this post so I would say she's valid for singing

00:29:35.880 about being hated on we had to eventually put up a disclaimer saying that we are fans we both paid

00:29:43.480 money to go to the errors tour I actually don't mind the encore tracks and despite this we are

00:29:49.840 allowed not just as like culture podcasters or journalists as people who consume art who watch

00:29:56.740 listen to art we are allowed to criticize and share our thoughts on one of the biggest and

00:30:02.060 richest pop stars in the world. Totally. I think building up that muscle of being opinionated and

00:30:10.440 being able to say why you like or dislike something is such an important part of being human. And I

00:30:17.300 think we are getting really bad at it. I feel like usually the internet likes black and white

00:30:24.580 things. So you either a hundred percent love something or a hundred percent hate something,

00:30:28.140 but there's so much gray area most people fall in that and like we should make space for that

00:30:33.120 on that in 2025 the sydney writer bianca devino penned a piece for refinery 29 about the reaction

00:30:40.080 to life of a showgirl bianca is a massive tail swift fan she went to the red tour in 2012 and

00:30:46.620 she also was on the front page of the sydney morning herald when she bought tickets to the

00:30:50.900 heiress tour so i think this is a great example of someone who is in the fandom who loves tail

00:30:55.300 swift but who can be critical the piece is called stan expectation and the law of cultural clout

00:31:01.160 why has the reaction to the life of a showgirl been so heated bianca was kind enough to read

00:31:06.020 out the piece in her own words why does this album feel so different in a career so perfectly

00:31:11.760 executed where does a misfire like this come from is it billionaire arrogance is it the confidence

00:31:17.700 that comes after exiting the most successful tour in music and successfully buying back your masters

00:31:22.820 is her team currently full of yes men high on her supply. Swift's career has now spanned three

00:31:29.240 decades. Where her millennial pop peers have failed to retain relevance, Swift has managed

00:31:34.780 to maneuver through the pop sphere while rewriting the playbook of the genre. The catapulting of her

00:31:40.520 already immense influence and popularity into something bigger began with the release of

00:31:45.460 Folklore and Evermore in 2020. The luscious indie rock inspired records captured hearts and minds

00:31:51.300 everywhere amidst pandemic moodiness and capitalized on the bubbling underground of

00:31:56.340 female-centric indie rock in the vein of Phoebe Bridges and Big Thief. Then came the re-recordings

00:32:01.740 of Fearless and Red, forcing critics and haters to re-evaluate the impact of those records.

00:32:07.720 A pivotal moment from this time was the release of All Too Well 10-Minute Version and its visually

00:32:12.480 stunning music video directed and written by Swift. It proved her dominance as a multidisciplinary

00:32:17.920 artist and gave us a look into some of her non-musical inspirations like the films of

00:32:22.960 John Cassavetes. These events all created a completely unexpected phenomenon. As a long-time

00:32:28.400 fan, it became cool to like Taylor Swift. Coolness, the most elusive, fleeting and important quality

00:32:35.380 in the cultural zeitgeist to obtain. Aside from that, it also firmly positioned Swift as the most

00:32:41.960 fully frontal influence and the carrier of the current pop frontier. Those made in her image,

00:32:48.500 Olivia Rodrigo, Gracie Abrams, Sabrina Carpenter and others have all begun forging careers that

00:32:54.500 have followers wondering who the pop baton will be passed on to, if allowed. Swift has established

00:33:00.080 herself as the ultimate pop imperialist. She has laid out the expectation that all of her eras

00:33:05.960 are to be treated with the utmost significance and that each era would give a glimpse into her

00:33:11.300 ever-developing taste and skill as a songwriter and sonic curator so that article was written

00:33:16.580 a year ago for refinery 29 australia so we called bianca up to ask her to reflect on the encore

00:33:22.700 tracks i think that a lot of the encore backlash does stem from genuine disappointment from the

00:33:28.640 taylor swift fan base i think that she has one of the most impeccable discographies in all of pop

00:33:34.160 music and now that she's reaching this point of like her 12th record she's entering this new phase

00:33:39.080 of her career the output isn't exactly aligning with the quality that we are used to and i think

00:33:46.520 that the fans are okay like it you are right to be disappointed by that um other artists like paul

00:33:53.660 mccartney bruce springsteen madonna artists that are of that legendary status like by this point

00:33:58.820 in their career they're not putting out their best records anymore i also do think a lot of

00:34:03.480 backlash does stem from people who already hate her or people who are looking for ways to take

00:34:10.500 down her legacy or to find flaws in her skill that I don't think is genuine backlash and then I think

00:34:18.860 there is also some backlash and personally I do feel this like there is a bit of greediness I don't

00:34:24.620 know why she had to release four CD singles for this I do think there is a point where the

00:34:31.860 capitalism is just a bit too loud i think folklore and everlaw did bring in a new wave of fans however

00:34:38.020 i think that it's been like this since 1989 actually that was when she became this like

00:34:42.520 music industry darling taylor swift is pop music and i think that ever since then she has positioned

00:34:49.620 herself as an artist that is culturally important critically important but also the most popular

00:34:54.380 she is trying to recreate this with every release which i don't think is yeah probably not the

00:35:01.000 smartest thing to do the tail swift discourse recently is bringing up an interesting analysis

00:35:06.460 of fan culture which we have seen over the past few years but it feels like in 2026 there's a new

00:35:11.440 thought pattern evolving and that is fans going from consumers to pretending to be industry

00:35:19.200 insiders and we've seen this a lot on anytime there's like some sort of celebrity story or

00:35:24.800 a clip people in the comments having really strong opinions about the business of whatever

00:35:32.320 industry that celebrity falls into and giving their judgments even when they are outside of

00:35:38.180 the industry i need an example because when i heard this i was like oh that's interesting but

00:35:41.500 i don't know if i like fully understood it so can you bring up some of the kind of examples we've

00:35:47.300 been seeing of this the user far two chains who is also the host of the pop culture podcast dinner

00:35:52.480 party history, shared this thesis and some examples in a TikTok this week. I would like to

00:35:59.240 know, seriously, I would like to know at what point did people make the switch of being regular

00:36:04.860 consumers of entertainment to pretending to be industry insiders? And I say that in the sense

00:36:11.060 where now when a celebrity wears a bad outfit, it's not just, ooh, fashion police, that's an

00:36:15.600 ugly outfit. It's the stylist needs to be fired. If you don't see your favorite celebrity at an 1.00

00:36:20.540 event the publicist needs to be fired this whole team needs to be fired whoa that's kind of drastic

00:36:27.120 in these scenarios you're like taking away the person's autonomy do you think they can't pick

00:36:31.560 out what they want to wear do you think somebody is like holding them at like knife point saying

00:36:35.880 you have to wear this outfit or else because what do you mean fire the stylist what if they just

00:36:40.360 wanted to wear that and it didn't look good to you that is so true and i wonder if it's because

00:36:45.740 through social media we're seeing so much more of the behind the scenes process now we're seeing

00:36:50.380 like showrunners of shows or like somebody's manager or agent having their own social media

00:36:55.880 presence and we were more clued into the machine behind famous people but it's funny because it's

00:37:02.720 like oh yeah why why when did this happen like when did this shift happen I do think it is related

00:37:08.500 to the point of like you can just like or dislike something point blank you don't have to cushion it

00:37:13.980 in all this like oh her stylist is blah blah or her PR is blah but you can just be like oh like

00:37:19.080 I don't really like their outfit.

00:37:20.460 Like that's actually okay to say rather than fire her stylist.

00:37:24.080 I wonder if it's also a like massive overcorrection from like talking

00:37:29.140 specifically about the stylist stuff or fashion from like fashion police.

00:37:32.620 She's on like the not hot list to now being like, well, it's not her.

00:37:37.700 It's not the celebrity.

00:37:38.620 So I'm being, I'm not being a bully.

00:37:40.200 It's the stylist and the stylist is wrong and I'm right.

00:37:43.800 And it's like so much of everything, big generalization,

00:37:47.620 so much of everything is subjective.

00:37:49.080 you can just dislike an outfit and i also think i know it's so freaking ironic for us to say this

00:37:55.160 as we sit with microphones in front of us on a podcast that we created but i also think part of

00:38:00.100 this culture is from everyone having an opinion because they can just open up their phone have a

00:38:05.420 platform build platforms really easily nowadays compared to 10 20 years ago yes but everyone does

00:38:10.880 have an opinion anyway are you saying like the sharing of that yes the sharing of that and also

00:38:15.500 the morality of being like this is my opinion and like i'm correct and no one else should try

00:38:22.980 you know like no one else is correct i think that's something we try to do on culture club

00:38:27.020 is to be like well why do we think this way and critically analyzing and like looking at what

00:38:32.500 all the public you know what the internet and publications are saying i think it's something

00:38:37.780 that was really evident in our comment section this week because it seemed like people were a

00:38:45.820 little bit fearful of disagreeing I feel like we sometimes get this comment every week or two and

00:38:51.500 it's like oh I usually love your take I usually agree with you but like I don't agree with this

00:38:55.300 um and they're like nervous about that or really disappointed disappointed and I'm like that's

00:38:59.900 actually fine we encourage that like we encourage disagreement and discourse and I just want this

00:39:05.820 to be a reminder that that is actually healthy behavior. Also the comments were saying that we

00:39:10.180 were like hating on her, bullying her. And I think that at the end of the day, this criticism comes

00:39:17.680 with being such a big public figure and she is going to be fine. Taylor Swift broke two Spotify

00:39:24.540 records when On Call was released. She's still the biggest pop star in the world. And I think

00:39:29.680 it's important that we can have conversations about her without it being framed as pure hate.

00:39:35.820 now it is time for bookmarked and as we said up top we have a listener recommendation today

00:39:51.700 and this could be you so send through your voice note we'll play it now hi culture club gals my

00:39:58.000 name is holly and i'm calling in from perth i'm recommending today my favorite book from our book

00:40:03.300 Club this year called True Biz by Sarah Novich, who's a deaf author who lost their hearing at age

00:40:08.440 12. This is a novel set in a school for the deaf in the US, and it follows multiple characters

00:40:14.260 throughout. It's quite a fast-paced read that explores the complexities of being deaf in a

00:40:18.780 hearing world, societal attitudes towards deafness, and how that relates to the use of

00:40:23.500 technological advancements like cochlear implants, and how those aren't necessarily always a good

00:40:28.680 thing at its heart though this is truly a book about family and community and finding yourself

00:40:34.280 one of my favorite parts of this book was the snippets of deaf history which had me practicing

00:40:39.040 signs to myself and on wikipedia throughout to try and find out more i know this was a bestseller a

00:40:45.060 few years ago but i feel like it never made it across my feed so i'm hoping a few aussie gals

00:40:49.740 can get behind it absolutely love your work and i can't wait to hear recommendations from other

00:40:54.540 listeners. Bye. Oh, thanks so much, Holly. Love that. We also often recommend things that came

00:41:01.960 out a few years ago. We're not always recommending like the hottest new releases. So we love to give

00:41:06.220 something, you know, a little bit of new life. So definitely adding to my list. While you're here,

00:41:11.280 do you want to share your bookmarked recommendation for the week? I was sick, which you might still

00:41:15.540 be able to hear over the weekend. And I watched a litany of movies, such a huge spectrum. Started

00:41:21.540 it with toy story five loved it you said it in our sub stack you said it was better than three

00:41:25.520 and four which kind of crazy to say loved it had a little tear oh and then because i was with my

00:41:31.020 husband we watched inception and fight club two you know film bro movies that i've never seen

00:41:35.500 i'm shocked that you hadn't i mean i haven't seen fight club but i was shocked that you didn't see

00:41:39.200 inception no i feel like i just missed it at the time and also the housemaid which i really liked

00:41:44.960 and that's so funny because guess what i just started listening to as an audiobook the house

00:41:48.620 me oh again hive mind what are the chances i mean obviously a very popular release but like

00:41:54.800 it's not that new anymore no it's funny that we both were like now is the time yeah the book is

00:41:59.920 so i'm gonna say the word trashy but like in a fun way which is interesting i didn't expect it to be

00:42:06.840 this not good really yeah that book is by freedom mcfadden it is a psychological thriller

00:42:14.840 and the movie came out in december of last year i really liked it as like a cozy watch it was like

00:42:21.480 raining on saturday i was like sick on the sofa and it is a american erotic psychological thriller

00:42:27.020 it stars amanda safe red and sydney sweeney i feel a bit funny watching sydney now because

00:42:32.300 like in my heart you were so like you're so good acting i really enjoyed this as a thriller with a

00:42:40.940 twists it's not too gory for people the girls like us who don't love horror it's really easy

00:42:46.220 to watch um kind of makes you question like okay who's it's like a lot of about gaslighting as well

00:42:53.260 excited it basically surrounds this rich couple who hire sydney sweeney who is fresh out of jail

00:42:59.400 and homeless as a housemaid to look after their child and to do the cooking and cleaning and

00:43:04.960 And it's not a spoiler to say that she is eventually trapped.

00:43:10.300 No, yeah.

00:43:10.900 Okay.

00:43:11.520 That's like common knowledge, isn't it?

00:43:12.720 Yeah.

00:43:13.160 Eventually trapped in the family's annex.

00:43:17.100 I think I'm like a fifth of the way through.

00:43:19.240 So I'm still pretty early.

00:43:20.500 I'm like, how old is she supposed to be?

00:43:22.340 Like, anyway, whatever.

00:43:23.300 We won't get into it. 0.97

00:43:24.380 She was arrested when she was a teenager and then she is meant to have been in jail for

00:43:28.480 10 years and then she's released after five.

00:43:30.740 Yeah.

00:43:31.020 Oh, gotcha.

00:43:31.540 Okay. 0.99

00:43:32.040 So she's on probation.

00:43:33.220 So that's a big part of the story as well.

00:43:34.960 I will watch anything Amanda Seyfried is in.

00:43:36.860 I think she's absolutely incredible and she is in this as well.

00:43:41.260 And I didn't realise, I don't know if you've seen it on Twitter,

00:43:43.840 that meme of Amanda Seyfried screaming in the car.

00:43:46.440 I didn't realise that that was from The Housemaid.

00:43:49.420 It's an easy watch.

00:43:50.580 It's thrilling.

00:43:51.860 Laurie was kind of half-watching,

00:43:53.400 which he sometimes does with the movies that I pick,

00:43:56.020 and then he put his game down and was like, he was in it.

00:44:00.500 And he also said he really enjoyed it.

00:44:02.700 So I think it's a good watch.

00:44:04.740 i think it would be fun and i i don't mind that i hadn't read the book first oh yeah that's fine

00:44:08.960 but i can imagine it would be a really really good book well i'm saying it's not but you're

00:44:13.820 not finished no i'm like the right okay anyway i think the story is gonna be really great i'm just

00:44:17.960 like the writing is it's the perfect like audio book when you just want something more fun anyway

00:44:23.840 sorry again why am i being so savage speaking of savage um the my recommendation for the week is

00:44:29.980 a book called The Ruiners by Eleanor Savage. And in our spring favorites video, I said I was going

00:44:34.940 to read it. And I've done so much in that episode. I think I'm having that accountability. I've

00:44:40.160 actually done things. That's so good. So I'm almost finished. I've got a few pages left of

00:44:44.240 this book. If you didn't listen to our other episode, this is a new contemporary lit book

00:44:51.700 that's come out of an Australian author, came out in April, May of this year. The quickest synopsis

00:44:57.660 is that it follows this girl in melbourne who's like kind of just like meandering through life

00:45:02.840 she's working at this random lobster shack and then she gets this inheritance of like fifty

00:45:07.100 thousand dollars and she meets this very like cool suave academic hot but also very distant man

00:45:17.360 and he convinces her to buy this like flailing decrepit mold-ridden shack in greece they move

00:45:24.340 there on a whim and it's like the crappiest place you've ever seen um one of her childhood friends

00:45:30.020 comes he is an environmental journalist he's a socialist um and then his lover comes who is like

00:45:36.540 the photographer journalistic photographer and it essentially follows them living in this crappy

00:45:43.340 place while this massive ecological landfill disaster is happening in this like random town

00:45:51.380 in Greece and it kind of goes into their interpersonal relationships as well as like

00:45:56.700 what's happening uh climate wise with the world at large and just like the different difficulty

00:46:03.000 difficulties and challenges is there I know that sounds really that I just threw a lot on the

00:46:07.820 table what I've liked the most is I think the author Eleanor is so observant and she's very

00:46:13.880 like pithy it's very smart sometimes it's like almost like too highbrow and I understand some

00:46:18.220 of the characters are like that but some of them i'm like oh that would be better it's just like

00:46:22.620 background on them but it's a lot sometimes but a very smart book i'm like damn this author is smart

00:46:29.300 um but i'm enjoying it and i haven't read like a contemporary lit book like this in a while and

00:46:35.260 it was nice to get back there i've only heard good things about this it's been on my list for ages as

00:46:39.780 well so i'm looking forward to reading it yes i think right now it's sitting about like a 3.25

00:46:45.040 three and a half stars amazing well thank you so much for listening today we really appreciate you

00:46:49.660 being here as we said if you want to submit your own bookmark just email us at cultureclubmail

00:46:54.660 at gmail.com we'll also put that in the show notes and if you enjoyed this episode give us

00:46:59.540 a little rate and review on spotify and apple as well we'd really appreciate it we'll see you soon

00:47:04.400 bye

00:47:05.300 Bye.

Culture Club - October 05, 2026

The Death Of Criticism, Cornell Seven, & Influencer “Girls”

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