Culture Club - The Toxic Trap of the Wellness Industry with Kath Ebbs

00:00:00.000 the toxic trap of the wellness industry growing up on the internet and embracing queerness with

00:00:13.480 outspoken creative Kath Epps we're Jasmine and Maggie and you're listening to Coach Club

00:00:20.100 this is our monthly interview with a person we find interesting and that we think you will too

00:00:25.440 We acknowledge that the Wurundjeri, Boonwurrung and Gadigal people are the traditional custodians

00:00:34.440 of the land upon which we live, work and record this podcast.

00:00:38.500 We would like to pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.

00:00:43.420 Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

00:00:46.660 today we welcome 23 year old model influencer and internet sensation kath ebbs as a teenager

00:00:57.800 they began modeling with independent youth run agency culture machine and owned the smoothie

00:01:03.760 bowl shack at glebe markets in sydney in the seven years since kath has grown into an incredibly open

00:01:09.980 critical thinking empathetic and introspective voice using their platform to talk about everything

00:01:15.920 from wellness and sexuality to vaccine hesitancy and mental health.

00:01:21.080 And just a note before we begin, in this chat with Kath, we dive into the history with eating

00:01:25.940 disorders which some listeners may find triggering. We encourage you to contact the Butterfly Foundation

00:01:32.340 if you need someone to talk to. We hope you enjoy this conversation and you can find Kath on

00:01:37.200 Instagram at Kath Ebbs. So to kick us off, Kath, you do a lot. You're a wearer of many hats. So

00:01:47.160 can you please tell us a little bit about yourself? A little bit about myself. Oh, I always like these

00:01:52.120 questions freak me out because I'm like, I don't know. Like what part of myself do I say? I guess

00:01:57.400 a little bit about myself. I am 23 years old and I live in Sydney. I've lived here my whole life.

00:02:05.800 i guess i work in the media sort of um and i'm always just talking shit about whatever

00:02:15.580 is happening in my life at that time don't know if it's the greatest business model but um yeah 0.89

00:02:21.140 that's what i do talk shit on the internet for fun and what else feel like i should like chuck 0.74

00:02:27.360 an actual fun fact my favorite color is pastel yellow um that's my favorite color um my 0.95

00:02:35.780 My favorite song of all time is You Can Call Me Out by Paul Simon.

00:02:39.780 And my favorite movie is Moulin Rouge.

00:02:42.200 So there you go.

00:02:42.740 There's some fun facts about me.

00:02:44.640 So good.

00:02:45.680 I feel like Pastel Yellow very much sums up your,

00:02:48.360 or at least your internet personality that I've seen on Instagram.

00:02:52.300 I love when people say that.

00:02:53.420 That's actually, yeah, no, people say that about me.

00:02:57.120 I'm like, really?

00:02:57.840 But massive compliment.

00:02:58.760 It's like, it's actually, you know what, fun fact as well.

00:03:00.880 so pastel yellow when I was younger my mom used to always say to me you know when parents just

00:03:06.880 like say stuff and like when you're younger your parents are like bible like everything they say

00:03:11.140 is like correct um and my mom used to always say to me that I couldn't wear yellow so I would

00:03:15.840 always like pick out yellow because I loved it and she'd always be like yellow washes you out

00:03:19.480 you can't wear it so I grew up just like not wearing yellow and it literally wasn't until 1.00

00:03:24.660 I was like 18 and I was with my friend Yaz at the time we was like at the shops and um I like

00:03:31.060 picked up this top and I was like oh this is so nice and then put it back and my friend was like

00:03:33.920 why don't you try it on and I was like no yellow washes me out and then I just like went silent

00:03:38.000 looked at me and I was like wait fuck that I can actually wear yellow like I kind of had that 0.99

00:03:43.960 moment of like realizing your like parents are adults and like fuck them and then I'm just 0.99

00:03:48.940 wore it all the time and was like I'm obsessed with yellow you always want what you can't have 0.99

00:03:54.540 as well yeah totally and I remember this this is so bad so this one day we're in we're in like 0.91

00:04:00.460 Queensland or something I think yeah we're on the Gold Coast because we went to like SeaWorld

00:04:03.600 and mum took us shopping when we like first got there and there was this like set and it was like

00:04:08.900 purple and yellow and I wanted it and she was like no it's ugly and I was like no please I like

00:04:14.380 begged her like I begged her so hard for this like set and so she bought it for me and I wore

00:04:19.120 to SeaWorld and I got intensely lost like the kind of loss where like they're like on speakers

00:04:25.560 and they're like looking for you like for your parents everywhere because like yeah so I got

00:04:28.980 lost and then my mum really was like it's because you wore the outfit and I was like

00:04:32.560 oh my gosh like core memory trauma like it sounds so bad it was like funny at the time like it was

00:04:43.220 like harsh she said it like in a funny way not in like an actual mean way she was like ha ha ha

00:04:46.780 oh god okay i was like it was funny but yeah now i love yellow so does your mom mind you wearing

00:04:54.980 yellow now she doesn't mind but she still thinks it washes me out i'm like mom be quiet i love

00:04:59.780 yellow she's like i don't know it doesn't suit you i'm like thanks but it's fine oh god classic

00:05:07.240 mom i think we all yeah i think we all have an experience like this like um i've done my hair

00:05:12.560 bit blue underneath and he was blonde underneath and every second day mom like comes up to me with

00:05:16.940 her box dye at home and she's like do you want to have some and I'm like mom let me live live my life

00:05:23.520 yeah no no no no it's like my dad my dad's not always like that like my brother like loves to

00:05:29.260 change his hairstyle especially in lockdown like every two seconds he'll like he used to have like

00:05:33.520 not long but long-ish like really curly hair and dad was like always on him about cutting it like

00:05:39.800 all the time to the point where it was like shut up and then now my brother just like literally

00:05:44.720 every week he'll like he shaved it and then he like got a mohawk and then he like dyed it pink

00:05:49.080 and dad is just always like why can't you just have like a normal haircut I love that both of

00:05:55.300 you are like rebelling against your parents like stuff yeah yeah amazing so you've already

00:06:04.300 generously shared your life with us in four minutes so you've you're very open and you have

00:06:10.700 been open online for a long time so how has that been and how has that journey evolved over the

00:06:16.900 years because you've been online since you were a teen right yeah it's so crazy how long I've been

00:06:22.580 on the internet um it was kind of random for me I um I finished high school and I had signed with

00:06:30.240 um an agent when I was in high school just like super randomly I got like scouted but I didn't

00:06:35.720 think anything of it I think I did like two jobs when I was in my last year of school and I was

00:06:39.420 kind of like I hate this but like the money's okay and then when I left school I um my agent

00:06:46.140 at the time was going on this like work trip thing to like the US and was like do you want to come

00:06:51.820 and I like on a whim was like okay really randomly and it was like went on this trip with a bunch of

00:06:56.900 other creatives and it was like amazing and through that when I left school I just started

00:07:02.740 like making videos with them um and as well as like modeling and stuff and yeah ended up with

00:07:10.160 like an online following it was like super random like it just happened so quickly and I was like

00:07:14.420 what the fuck is happening um and then it's just kind of it's like it's a weird thing I think when

00:07:21.040 you don't plan it because I think when which like lots of people on the internet rightfully so 0.98

00:07:26.780 kind of like go in with like a vision like I want to be a fashion blogger right so they like start

00:07:31.920 and they try to build a following they know what they're doing it's like calculated in this really

00:07:35.200 like great way but for me it was like what do I do now like I was kind of like oh okay these people

00:07:40.960 are like looking at me and I don't okay great this is I guess this is an opportunity of some sort

00:07:45.980 um but because of that I was so young I was like just freshly 18 I feel like the internet has like

00:07:53.200 watched me grow up like I feel like a lot of the time um you know when you're in your like late

00:07:58.940 teens early 20s you do a lot like you trial and error a lot of things because you're getting to

00:08:04.040 know yourself you're growing up you're you know whatever your life like experience is but you do

00:08:09.320 it all like behind closed doors so you like try something and you're like oh it's not for me you

00:08:12.340 try something that's not for me um but I was kind of doing that publicly because like I said my

00:08:17.560 branding was like whatever I felt I wanted to share at that time which has been kind of amazing

00:08:22.540 like there's it's really beautiful to have people still on there that have like literally watched me

00:08:25.920 grow up but it is very like jarring and I think I did like a lot of things that I don't regret at

00:08:32.360 all um but now I just look back on and I'm just like oh that was interesting like I kind of like

00:08:37.740 a bit of a wellness rabbit hole because I was like obsessed with food and like then like and

00:08:44.100 then at first obviously I started more like fashion and now it's kind of it's nice it's

00:08:48.100 kind of like everything like I've I've probably because it's been so long and just getting older

00:08:53.580 I've become like a lot more comfortable with just like being myself on there and like people can

00:08:57.540 take it or leave it um but yeah it's kind of like how I got into it and it's just been like a ripple

00:09:04.500 snowball effect and it's been amazing and it's been really hard and it's been confusing and

00:09:11.080 confronting but I wouldn't take it back for anything it's it's I know it's fun I guess

00:09:18.580 I want to pinpoint that point that you just said about growing up on the internet because in your

00:09:26.040 website bio you write changing and growing publicly allows people to comment you also

00:09:31.760 sometimes feel indebted to the old you people first followed this is something I have been

00:09:37.280 struggling with for years it is also another reason I left this space for a bit so can you

00:09:43.060 talk about what it's like having different versions of yourself exist online and in other people's

00:09:48.780 minds about you and how that affects your own self-image um yeah it's really it's it's it's

00:09:55.080 kind of difficult I think too because people want to like obviously put you into a box and I think

00:10:00.900 too for me like I said like a lot of like I grew up on the internet so like obviously I'm going to

00:10:05.620 change and I think with that it like so for example like when I got a following obviously I

00:10:10.640 was modeling as well as I was hanging out with a group of friends and they would make like memes

00:10:14.980 and I was like in them so that was how a lot of people found me um and then that obviously because

00:10:20.000 life goes on that group like disperse and I was no longer doing that so people just like unfollow

00:10:25.280 you which is like fine on like a normal logical sense like that's obvious but that takes a toll

00:10:29.980 on your self-esteem because you think like something's wrong with you or people only found

00:10:33.300 you interesting because you were doing this thing that now you're not doing or you know like I said

00:10:38.480 when I went down a wellness rabbit hole and I was on my own journey with like um food and being and

00:10:43.800 like you know disordered eating and all of that and then when I came to this realization that

00:10:48.020 that no longer served me anymore um in it like I like I still obviously have my blog and I still

00:10:53.700 cook and like every so often will share like tidbits because like I love you know working

00:10:58.680 out and eating well but I no longer was like I don't want to make this my brand anymore because

00:11:02.220 I think it's feeding into like my own disordered eating and being obsessed with health um but then

00:11:09.780 you get scared because you feel indebted because all those people have followed you for that and 0.99

00:11:13.840 then if you don't do that they're like well fuck you um so yeah it's it's it's hard and it's 0.97

00:11:19.580 confusing but like I said I've just tried to like only really very recently just come to this place 0.99

00:11:25.120 of like acceptance of like well I'm never gonna try and be something I'm not on the internet and

00:11:30.680 I never have. And I guess now I'm just like, my branding is the fact that I'm just literally

00:11:35.880 myself. And that is what it is. And some people aren't going to like that. And that's okay. And

00:11:43.440 that's nothing to do with me personally. It's just that they came here for something that no longer

00:11:48.000 exists. So they're going to go find it elsewhere. And that's fine because I'm not going to keep up

00:11:52.140 an act of being someone that I'm not because that's, you know, it's not going to serve anyone.

00:11:58.000 um but yeah it's hard like it is really hard and it's something I like struggle with like

00:12:03.900 like daily like with what I'm doing and yeah how to process all of that and process that

00:12:10.620 people not being interested in you like it's hard like now because of the way I position myself

00:12:15.820 because I I don't have like a specific thing that I like fit into you do as well get

00:12:25.460 self-conscious if people do kind of drop off like it's hard to not take it personally I suppose 0.98

00:12:31.880 even though you can understand it there's still that part of you that feels like shit

00:12:36.260 yeah and you touched on before about feeling like your content was starting to feed into 0.79

00:12:41.980 disordered eating and um that type of content so how has your relationship with health and

00:12:49.160 fitness changed over the years so much so um I had a really severe anorexia when I was um 16 17

00:12:59.180 and I was like on my recovery journey like as I started modeling which is interesting story in

00:13:07.000 itself and obviously got an online following and I never shared that side of me I never wanted to

00:13:12.120 ever. But it was hard. And, and I think, yeah, I was, I was, I was, you know, I was on a journey

00:13:23.180 of figuring out my relationship to food and exercise. And I was doing that publicly. And I

00:13:30.300 think at the time, 110%, I had all well, good intention, like, absolutely, like, because I

00:13:37.640 was in this um situation I suppose with myself of like trying to understand where I sat and

00:13:45.700 trying to undo bad like not bad I don't like that word but um self-destructive almost behavior

00:13:53.680 and I guess my relationship has just like evolved from that it's been like a very slow process of

00:13:59.040 like healing myself and like I said it's not now that I'm like yeah I don't like exercise and like

00:14:03.540 whatever I still fucking love to look after myself and running and training and lots of other things

00:14:11.520 like yoga and all of that are like a huge part of me therefore they're a part of my like branding

00:14:16.620 on the internet because I like share things that make me feel good and exercise and eating well

00:14:21.600 are those things and creating but it no longer is the be all and end all and I've learned to kind

00:14:30.240 of relax into that and so much so that I've actually only really in the past like few months

00:14:35.620 actually shared the fact that I had an eating disorder and that I was going through that whilst

00:14:40.960 being public on the internet because I feel like I'm at a place where I can share that story and

00:14:45.880 that doesn't mean that I 100% have control over it or I'm like 100% like I guess in a way recovered

00:14:51.560 but I definitely feel at the best place I've ever been with it enough to be able to talk about it

00:14:56.220 publicly and talk about the things that I was going through whilst being public on the internet

00:15:00.960 and being in that quote unquote wellness space and how that wellness kind of space actually

00:15:08.120 didn't serve me. It served me in the way of like, it was almost like a gateway drug in like during

00:15:12.700 my recovery, but the ethos behind that industry is totally not how I align now. And that feels

00:15:20.060 like a stepping stone into being more um at peace with my body and the way that I don't indulge in

00:15:29.100 really self-destructive behaviors like you know um like food addiction and exercise addiction and

00:15:35.100 all that stuff so yeah it's it's it's been interesting and something that I'm only now

00:15:40.640 finding the confidence and the security to share publicly on the internet well I feel like it's

00:15:47.340 something a lot of teenagers and especially teenage girls go through is that kind of

00:15:51.620 disordered eating or relationships with our body like I remember when I was in year 12

00:15:57.320 I was like obsessed with going to the gym and I was like really like into vegan food and consuming

00:16:03.180 all that content but I can't imagine going through that and then having like thousands of people

00:16:08.980 watching you as like a teenager and like um not worshipping isn't the right word but like looking

00:16:14.580 to you for advice and like fitness tips and being put up on a bit of a platform literally um so that

00:16:22.780 must have been really hard yeah no it definitely was and like I said as well there was a lot of

00:16:28.160 guilt when I found myself going into that other realm of not being as obsessed with food and then

00:16:32.840 no I no longer wanted to cook as much as I was like I made that my branding and then I felt

00:16:38.260 really guilty because I was like well people are like following me for this and I pigeonholed

00:16:41.660 myself so what am I gonna what am I gonna do what am I gonna everyone's gonna hate me sort of thing

00:16:45.860 um because I yeah I I lost interest but that was actually like me just being less obsessed with

00:16:51.940 food which was actually a positive thing in my personal life um but no it is really hard because

00:16:56.340 it also helps you justify your behavior because I'm like everyone's applauding me for this thing

00:17:01.220 which it you know it is on you only see like a screen version of it which is just being like oh

00:17:06.320 my god like cath is like killing it in the gym and and i still am because i still love to work

00:17:12.660 out i'm still strong and fit um but for different reasons now uh but i yeah it is it is difficult

00:17:21.900 and i also think it's really interesting because you end up like being like the internet's a weird

00:17:26.060 place so like a lot of like influencers or whatever that do similar things usually end up

00:17:30.640 becoming friends with each other because you get invited to like similar like pr events so i was

00:17:34.720 like being invited to those sort of places and and that was feeding into it but then also

00:17:40.400 towards the end it was kind of this revelation I remember like being at an event and being like I

00:17:45.020 care about a lot more than putting chia seeds in water meditating for an hour every day not

00:17:52.880 saying those things are bad like go for it but I care about things a lot more than I like my life

00:17:56.660 is bigger than balanced more holistic yeah yeah yeah so um yeah it's interesting and again it's

00:18:03.700 still something I struggle with now and I feel like I've like let people down or something but

00:18:06.980 I'm trying to go easy on myself because I need to put my life and my mental health and my health

00:18:12.840 and just me as a person like being true to myself before pleasing other people on the internet um

00:18:19.460 but yeah it's a it's a it's a struggle sometimes yeah of course and I really like how you are open

00:18:28.420 with where you are at with your health journey as well like I really admire you for still

00:18:34.220 loving exercise and loving taking care of yourself but how how do you find that balance

00:18:41.500 because I do think that the toxic wellness industry has got its like pinches on everything

00:18:46.840 and it's really hard to like untangle the two sometimes how is that kind of thought process

00:18:53.620 for you yeah it's wild you actually say that actually um literally only an hour ago i was on

00:18:58.180 the phone to like one of my really good friends and we were talking about this we both like both

00:19:02.720 of us had had struggles with um like food addiction and and especially during this pandemic and

00:19:07.160 lockdown right now we were literally having this discussion because it's very easy to justify all

00:19:11.640 behaviors in this kind of health and wellness realm for example we were using the example when

00:19:17.780 we were on the phone about intermittent fasting and we were talking about how something like

00:19:22.180 intermittent fasting is so like glorified and seen as this like health practice when really for

00:19:27.320 someone like me it can trigger me into justifying actually saving food and seeing food as this thing

00:19:33.200 that I should save in order to then eat it at a time where I can numb myself out or borderline

00:19:40.720 binge eat behavior but justify it in this like intermittent fasting way that's just like one

00:19:45.900 example and it is a juggling act and it honestly comes down to really intense self-reflection of

00:19:51.020 the why and the why you're doing something. But I think a lot of the time, any of these sort of

00:19:56.800 diets or health fads that you see in the wellness industry, such as intermittent fasting, the keto

00:20:02.360 diet, the paleo diet, juice cleanses, celery juice, water fasting, like all these things,

00:20:08.920 I don't believe that they are... Well, how do I say this? For me, the way I define health

00:20:17.440 no longer includes anything that is restrictive or has rules on me and that is my rule um and as

00:20:23.580 soon as I find myself like for example right let's let's let's use the intermittent fasting

00:20:26.860 thing as an example if I genuinely one day am feeling as though like my guts are all over the

00:20:34.760 place I don't feel like having food yet I just feel like drinking lots of water until such times

00:20:39.700 maybe that's me listening to my body right but if I then the other way go no I'm not eating until

00:20:45.580 two o'clock because it's going to make me it's going to help me lose weight and also if I don't

00:20:50.420 eat all day then I can like save my calories to night time so then I can like eat you know if

00:20:54.380 that's where I go whoa whoa whoa whoa like no and I'm not going to justify myself through the lens

00:21:00.980 of wellness um so it's it's like a constant reflection and checking in with yourself game

00:21:07.200 of why am I doing this am I doing this right now because it actually is I feel like it's going to

00:21:11.620 make me feel good or am I doing it because it's going to make me feel like I have some sort of

00:21:15.000 control over myself or some sort of control over my life or am I using food as a way to like am I

00:21:21.580 weaponizing food essentially in my life or am I viewing it as something that nourishes me and

00:21:26.580 keeps me alive so it is a constant battle we live in a world that is diet obsessed and wellness now

00:21:33.420 obsessed and the wellness industry is something I find sometimes more dangerous than the diet

00:21:39.080 culture industry because it paints diet culture in this color of like no no no no we're not dieting

00:21:44.860 this isn't about losing weight this is just about being healthy but then there's like this undertone

00:21:50.100 of like you will lose weight which I think is more because it leaves more room to justify your

00:21:55.700 behavior like if I come out and I'm like I'm counting calories someone would easily be able

00:22:00.420 to be like if you had an eating disorder dude maybe that's not a good idea or like why are you

00:22:04.700 counting your calories like it's very like more in your face like it's very more we have more 0.99

00:22:09.400 language around being like nah man that's some like toxic shit but when with the wellness industry 0.87

00:22:14.620 it's so easy to to um it's like it doesn't it's like the perfect example is also like veganism 0.73

00:22:20.600 like what's why so many people now that have recovered from eating disorders talk about

00:22:23.900 veganism veganism is a perfect example of using something that is good for you or good for the

00:22:28.780 planet in a means to actually control your food intake and you can easily justify it because

00:22:34.480 someone that doesn't know you or doesn't live in your brain can be like oh i guess they're just

00:22:37.760 doing a good thing right but you know that you're you it's an excuse um so yeah i don't know it's

00:22:44.420 really hard it's really confusing we live in a diet obsessed world but honestly i think it's

00:22:48.400 checking in with yourself as much as you can and just questioning the why you're doing something

00:22:54.080 and how much does something consume your life you know it's like if you had if you drew two circles

00:22:58.560 next to each other one is you as a person and the other one is diet culture food exercise how much

00:23:05.100 do they overlap and if they're overlapping a lot probably alarm bells are going off um they should

00:23:10.400 only overlap like the tiniest bit yeah such good advice and words of wisdom I like I'm just nodding

00:23:18.300 constantly agreeing with everything you're saying so speaking of wellness there's been a lot of

00:23:24.280 conversations especially around the wellness industry in terms of vaccinations now you have

00:23:31.700 publicly been advocating for the COVID-19 vaccine which I think is so brave given the situation on

00:23:40.000 the internet at the moment so why is it important to you to use your platform to echo the advice of

00:23:45.820 healthcare professionals and what made you want to share your thoughts um so publicly because um

00:23:53.140 vaccines have worked from the beginning of like you know since the spanish flu really

00:24:01.000 and i you know i'm not going to talk about like the nitty-gritty of like science here because

00:24:05.840 i'm not a scientist and like i said i point people in that direction go on my page i have

00:24:09.660 highlight that says vaccine. If you want to listen to scientists and doctors and health experts talk

00:24:13.700 about how it's safe and how it is a very effective way in controlling this wild pandemic that we're

00:24:20.880 living in. But the reason why it gets me so right up is because it's just this individualism that

00:24:30.020 is just breeding off people that are quote unquote anti-vaxxers or whatever. The point of a vaccine

00:24:38.280 is about the it's about community it's about giving a fuck about everyone else you know I can 0.97

00:24:44.340 sit here and be like oh like I'm young and I'm healthy and you know the vaccine might give me 0.92

00:24:49.720 more side effects than COVID or I might not even get COVID but it's like that's not the point the

00:24:54.820 point for me is yes I also do want to be protected because I don't want to get COVID I would like not

00:24:59.300 to get sick but the the point for me is thinking about the community as a whole and what is the

00:25:04.620 best way that we're going to get our life back and how have vaccines eradicated diseases and

00:25:08.900 viruses in the past they have so therefore i can't see why this one wouldn't do the same thing

00:25:14.240 um and i want to look after my wider community and not only the wider community but the children

00:25:19.820 that are going to come after me the children like even if you go back to like the spanish flu those

00:25:24.900 people they all took the vaccine yeah some of them got sick from the vaccine i'm sure but majority of

00:25:30.900 them didn't. And that's how we live in a society now where the Spanish flu doesn't kill people and

00:25:36.040 it doesn't affect people. And also the more people that get vaccinated, the less chance the virus has

00:25:40.600 to mutate. Therefore, we can actually get the situation under control. I don't think people

00:25:45.200 understand the reality of a virus. If you do not get it under control, yeah, there could be a

00:25:50.380 situation as scary as it sounds in a year or two or three where that virus is mutated so badly that

00:25:56.960 it does become something like a SARS where you get it and it's a death sentence or people will

00:26:01.740 genuinely be scared to leave their house because you genuinely do not want to get this virus because

00:26:05.560 we have no way of of protecting ourselves from it so I don't know I just think if you care about

00:26:12.300 society and you care about the world and you care about your brothers and sisters and non-binary 1.00

00:26:16.260 folks you get the vaccine and the privilege that we have to have this vaccine even if you look at

00:26:23.720 stats, 98% of gay, LGBTQIA+, gay men specifically have gotten the vaccine. Why? Because they know

00:26:33.880 the privilege of having a vaccine turnaround in a year, like in fucking 13 or whatever months it 0.97

00:26:40.520 was, having a vaccine turnaround and be there that's going to like help control a pandemic. 0.87

00:26:46.880 They know what that's about because when that doesn't happen, a lot of people get sick and 0.83

00:26:50.740 fucking die um so for me it's just a no a no-brainer and also I'm not about to question 0.97

00:26:55.560 people that have studied for years and years and years how dare I um how dare I do that when 0.99

00:27:01.300 like you know what I mean everyone wants to listen to health experts every single day except for

00:27:06.020 today like I don't understand like how do you think you function in this world if you get sick

00:27:11.100 you go to the doctor if you get really sick you go to the hospital we've never questioned it before

00:27:15.000 why the fuck are we questioning it now it doesn't make sense to me you never question the medicine 0.97

00:27:19.160 that you get given when you're suffering from COVID in the hospital you only question like 0.99

00:27:23.020 the preventative one yeah it's it's ridiculous like you know the logic behind it and people

00:27:30.300 saying things like oh this is in a trial phase okay firstly it's not in a trial phase because

00:27:33.740 you can't just make a vaccine and be like yeah I don't really know man just uh give it a go

00:27:37.420 it doesn't work like that they've done a lot of research a lot of tests a lot of trialing

00:27:41.360 but yeah if you want to say well it's only been around for like two seconds

00:27:44.900 okay yeah sure and maybe there is risks to it but if you calculate the risk it's not as big as if we 0.95

00:27:51.380 don't do something about it maybe it isn't it's trial phase if you want to say that sure so fucking

00:27:57.120 be it like we we are living in really unprecedented times um that a lot of us don't have like whole 0.97

00:28:05.640 whole solution answers to so yeah you're gonna have to fucking trial and error things like we're

00:28:11.000 in this together the world is in this together and we need to find a way out of it like

00:28:15.820 exactly and it I love hearing just like the passion in your voice because this is making

00:28:21.740 me so angry it's almost like tiring having to have this conversation because it's like

00:28:26.420 wake up people like why are we just listening to the science so I kind of want to ask the question

00:28:31.720 why do you think there's such a link between people who are anti-mask or anti-lockdown and

00:28:37.400 sorry to say it a lot of the wellness community um i think i don't want to sound bitchy so i'm

00:28:45.520 like okay i think there's it's really interesting actually with the whole anti-vax

00:28:53.200 movement because you have so many subcategories like you have people that are anti-vaxxers full

00:28:57.660 stop like they don't believe in any vaccines they believe in conspiracy theories behind vaccines or

00:29:02.480 whatever so they're just like i don't believe in vaccines full stop then you have people that are 0.99

00:29:06.260 like conspiracy theorists like you have like the q anons that believe that the government is trying 0.63

00:29:10.100 to control us this is all a ploy to like do this isn't this and then you have people that aren't 0.73

00:29:14.700 anti-vaxxers or or in-depth conspiracy theorists but just believe that the things of like i don't

00:29:20.880 know about the risk or i don't want to put these toxins in my body or like this virus is a little

00:29:24.860 bit different like you know there's that so i think the wellness industry there's a few different 0.97

00:29:29.340 things i think there's the main one is that whole thing is like my body's a fucking temple and like 0.68

00:29:33.840 i don't want to put any toxins into my body there's there's all of like that i think that's 0.86

00:29:38.300 the main sort of thing like i've been asking a lot of like it's actually been kind of sad for me

00:29:42.900 like i love yoga and yoga was actually a huge part of my um healing journey um with eating

00:29:47.860 eating disorders and um it's been really sad to see a lot of my like favorite uh studios and

00:29:55.140 teachers come out and be anti-vax like it's been really awful and i have questioned a few

00:30:00.580 a few of them and it is seems to be this thing of not wanting to put toxins into their body

00:30:06.220 and not the whole trial phase thing and the whole like um vaccines aren't going to save us and why

00:30:13.580 are we not just telling people to like eat healthier and exercise and do all these things

00:30:18.220 for their immune system and i think as though as i'm like okay on like a very boring basic level

00:30:24.280 okay sure you can have that train of thought but where is your sense of community like it's very

00:30:29.460 individualistic like you can have these opinions like you know there would have been a time where

00:30:33.700 I probably had the same opinion but I can have those opinions and also go but this is what I

00:30:37.020 got to do you know like it's not the time of day if we want to talk any other day and you want to 0.99

00:30:41.660 have a you want to have a yarn about how like people that drink soft drinks are stupid or

00:30:47.400 whatever which I don't know I don't believe that but like if some wellness person wants to like 0.96

00:30:51.540 shame someone or be like we all need to blah blah toxins and you can have that on any other day but

00:30:57.420 Like we're talking about a global pandemic. 1.00

00:30:59.420 Like we don't have room for that shit. 1.00

00:31:01.980 Like fuck your toxins. 1.00

00:31:03.860 Literally, if you breathe the air that we're breathing right now, 1.00

00:31:07.100 you're probably screwed anyway. 0.71

00:31:10.820 And just do this for your, like I said, for the community, 0.97

00:31:15.280 for your brothers and sisters and non-binary folks,

00:31:16.760 for the children to come.

00:31:17.920 Those poor like little kids are going to have to grow up in a world.

00:31:20.360 We don't know how bad this can get.

00:31:23.500 So we don't like, yeah.

00:31:25.520 So I don't know.

00:31:26.400 So I think mainly the – but there's also in the wellness industry,

00:31:29.860 there's a lot of, like, QAnons that just believe that, like, you know, 0.99

00:31:34.320 that whole, like, fuck the government thing. 0.99

00:31:37.500 So, yeah, it's also that. 0.99

00:31:39.220 Like, I do find a lot of the time people that are in that, like,

00:31:43.060 wellness world, yoga world, meditation world vibes love a conspiracy theory.

00:31:49.720 I don't know why.

00:31:50.820 I've just come across it a lot.

00:31:52.140 I have no idea why.

00:31:53.220 maybe just because they're very like I don't know like to question everything which I that's like

00:31:59.200 my biggest pet peeve like I'm just questioning I'm like your questions are getting boring

00:32:04.500 questions um but uh yeah I don't that's my take from what I've heard and from what I've seen from

00:32:13.360 like the wellness people I have around me it seems to be this whole thing of like

00:32:16.740 the I don't want to put toxins in my body we don't know the risks and then this whole thing

00:32:22.280 which is kind of a conspiracy of like the government is lying to us they're not telling

00:32:25.640 us everything and they get on like weird like telegram websites and get fed information and

00:32:31.720 then their echo chamber just becomes that and then they think everyone thinks like that but

00:32:35.860 really it's a small portion of people so yeah have you received much backlash from putting

00:32:41.460 your opinions out there on this subject um at first now not really because I think people know

00:32:47.280 that I like I'm not gonna change my mind um I mean I've obviously like I lost a few followers

00:32:53.160 but that's not new to me I've honestly been losing followers for the past like four years

00:32:56.960 so I couldn't give a fuck but uh at the beginning yeah I also had a video I made a video um

00:33:04.220 like a month ago now about just me getting angry about like vaccines um and it got like quite a 0.59

00:33:12.880 few views so when that happens your content can end up in the explore page and i think that's what

00:33:18.620 happened so i had a lot of people that didn't follow me just like commenting and being anti-vax

00:33:23.120 um so there was that but in terms of like on my dms like at first yes but now no because i think

00:33:29.680 people are just like i'm not gonna bother trying to argue with them because i'm not gonna

00:33:33.540 budge and also i'd like to think that majority of my followers are my people and my people get

00:33:41.320 vaccinated yes very true you would hope yeah and just to switch gears here after our big

00:33:50.200 covid rant um we'd also love to talk to you about gender um so you use they she pronouns and we

00:33:57.040 would love to know more about this process of figuring out what gender looks like for you um

00:34:02.160 and the gender euphoria that you hopefully do experience as well um it's been a really

00:34:08.760 interesting journey for me um I so I came out only semi-recently um it was like two and a half

00:34:18.020 years ago or something and my first partner my partner at the time was is sorry non-binary um

00:34:26.700 and that was the first time I was like properly introduced to gender queerness and gender

00:34:31.480 non-conforming and non-binaryness and all that sort of stuff which was really interesting for

00:34:35.180 me because at first it was like had you know nothing to do with me it was just like my partner

00:34:38.700 was just like telling me things or like I would ask them like a question just being like so why

00:34:43.660 this or why that or like can you explain this to me because I was trying to get to know them

00:34:47.260 um obviously and every time they would talk about like gender or like different types of gender or

00:34:53.740 gender um dysphoria or um all that sort of stuff or like link me like a mate like like oh like read 0.87

00:35:00.080 this book or like whatever I was just like what the fuck like it felt like everyone was like

00:35:04.580 speaking my language but then I felt really weird because obviously as well like my partner at the 0.87

00:35:09.880 time was non-binary so I was like oh I don't want to like have this conversation because I feel like

00:35:13.360 I'm like taking up space or something but then this one day I just did and I was like I don't

00:35:17.720 know like I feel really like weird every time you talk about this I'm like nodding along inside and

00:35:23.480 like I don't really know what to do with that and then they were just like oh like that's sick and

00:35:27.920 like that makes sense um I don't know just like sit with it and like if you ever want me to like

00:35:32.200 use gender neutral pronouns just between us like I can and you can just like see how it feels and

00:35:36.900 I was like okay and then they did and I was like oh that feels like rad like I really um liked it

00:35:44.380 so I kind of toyed with being like she they for a while and didn't really talk about it like at all

00:35:49.320 I also think because I was with that person for quite a long time and they were on their own

00:35:53.700 really like intense gender journey and I kind of just wanted to like hold space for them um in that

00:35:59.820 And recently being single has allowed me more time and energy to put purely into myself

00:36:06.540 and what I think and what I feel, which is why I recently like changed my pronouns to

00:36:10.480 they, she.

00:36:12.160 But yeah, I don't know.

00:36:13.360 For me, it's just been like this really freeing experience.

00:36:16.320 It's odd for me.

00:36:17.160 I still do feel very like, not attached, I don't think that's the right word, but I

00:36:22.220 think why I still have she within my preferred pronouns is because I do feel somewhat connected

00:36:29.640 still to my woman womanhood but at the whole of it I don't really connect with what it means to

00:36:35.600 be like a fully fleshed female and I've always kind of felt like that um and I think too like

00:36:41.620 I have always felt being public like this pressure to pick something and stick to it like even coming 0.89

00:36:46.500 out was so scary for me because I was like I'm like 99% sure that I've always been very fucking 0.80

00:36:50.980 gay but I'm terrified because like what if I change my mind and that also just comes from 0.87

00:36:55.300 living in like a heteronormative cis world um so now I kind of like the way I approach it is like

00:37:02.120 this is how I feel today and today I feel like a very like I feel very um euphoric and comfortable 0.97

00:37:09.180 saying that I'm like a genderqueer non-binary like lesbian and maybe that will fucking change 0.64

00:37:14.340 I don't know I don't think it will right now because that's how I feel right now but maybe 0.82

00:37:17.720 it will and maybe that is okay maybe it's okay to identify how I identify and what feels good

00:37:22.520 and sexy for me today. And if that changes, like, so be it. And I think having that mentality

00:37:27.980 has really helped me fully be able to step into my non-binary-ness because I no longer feel as

00:37:33.500 though that, like, if I say that and change my mind, the world's going to end. So I can just

00:37:37.300 embrace what I'm feeling right now. And that is how I'm feeling right now. And that's what speaks

00:37:41.600 volumes to me and makes me feel comfortable and happy. So I just, I'm going with it. I'm right

00:37:47.940 in the wave and as you mentioned before we understand if you don't want to talk about this

00:37:53.760 right now but you've been bravely speaking about your really recent heartbreak um so what are some

00:38:01.280 ways you've been healing your heart and do you have any advice for people out there who've also

00:38:06.280 recently gone through a breakup um yeah it's i have been i just like chose to be public about

00:38:12.340 because it was so weird when it happened like I mean my situation was uh like very not ideal you

00:38:21.140 know it wasn't a smooth it was like a massive like blind side one day like I love you so much

00:38:25.720 next day adios um there was like infidelity like the whole thing was just like I literally was

00:38:30.940 like what is happening I'm the shittest person in the world and feeling so terrible and so

00:38:37.440 heartbroken and then I was I remember this one night it was like the second night and I could

00:38:41.660 not sleep of course because I was just like what is happening like the person I love has just 0.96

00:38:45.440 literally told me they don't love me and what the fuck um and I was in bed couldn't sleep and I was 0.81

00:38:52.600 just like literally on my phone being like will I feel like this forever how to get over heartbreak 0.97

00:38:57.500 I was looking for like heartbreak pod like I was just like anything right now because I am terrified

00:39:01.380 of the world and then I was like wait I should fucking talk about this because like I need this

00:39:06.860 right now so why don't I create it whilst I'm going through it some people would say that's a 0.97

00:39:10.980 bad idea because maybe I look unhinged but I don't really give a shit um and I was just like I'm

00:39:15.860 gonna fucking talk about this so I guess I did it because I was I am going through it and it feels 0.97

00:39:21.060 so awful and if I was going through this and I was looking at someone that was going through the 0.97

00:39:25.040 same thing or I had something to look back on like you know if someone goes through heartbreak soon

00:39:29.600 and they're like oh I can go back to like Kath's content because she got dumped like six months ago

00:39:33.460 whatever wasn't even six months guys it was only three months ago still baby heartbroken um yeah

00:39:39.820 so that's why I like publicly spoke about it because I was just feeling so rotten and so

00:39:43.420 shit about myself like when you I think as well it's very interesting like when you get heart

00:39:48.220 broken like when someone blindsides you or cheats on you or whatever it's a very intense feeling 0.98

00:39:56.240 like it's so hard not to just like question yourself and like I got like the ick of myself

00:40:02.380 like I was like oh my god am I like annoying like did I drive this person to like cheat on me and

00:40:07.180 hate me. And that is a very fucking awful feeling. And I was just like, I don't know anyone out of 0.97

00:40:13.460 the influences that I follow talking about this shit. So I'm going to talk about it. Yeah. So I 0.99

00:40:19.520 did it because I was looking for content when I was in the depths of losing my mind. So I was like,

00:40:24.500 I'm going to be the content that I want. Yeah. I was wondering as well, like you were quite

00:40:31.920 um public with your relationship on Instagram anyway because I don't want to put words in your

00:40:38.900 mouth but you were going on this kind of journey of gender exploration it seemed together did you

00:40:45.600 ever feel like you owed it to your community to explain what happened or was this really just like

00:40:51.520 a pure like I want to help people um because I know sometimes people can just like get rid of

00:40:57.600 all the photos and never talk about it again yeah I think it was um I think it was both so I think

00:41:02.980 at first I didn't know if I was gonna like actually talk about it as in like be like

00:41:08.180 like be like make a podcast about it or like I didn't know if I was gonna do all that I was

00:41:12.180 still like unsure but for me personally I knew I knew so like even I had a boyfriend for like

00:41:17.840 I don't know maybe a year or a bit more um and I wasn't like super public with him but people like

00:41:22.540 knew we were like kind of like I never like I posted him maybe like only a handful of times 0.78

00:41:27.380 and I didn't address that breakup because I was like no one gives a shit like I just did the old

00:41:31.940 like archive the photos move on and I still got like a bombard every day of like dms of people 0.98

00:41:37.280 being like are you away from breaking up like and I was like what the fuck so I knew that that was

00:41:42.900 gonna happen anyway like I knew people would be like what happened because we were so we lived 0.61

00:41:48.020 together like people would have known straight away like um we both did not shy away from being

00:41:54.120 very public. And so I was like, no, I'm a hundred percent going to address it because I don't want

00:41:58.340 to like, I know I'm going to get asked all the time anyway. So I just feel like I'm just going

00:42:02.260 to like address it. And she's like, yep, this happened the end. But I wasn't sure if I was

00:42:06.000 going to like make content about it. That was like, I was like, cause I, we broke up and I

00:42:10.460 spent literally two weeks just staring out a window in shock. Um, and then, and then I waited

00:42:18.180 like another week before I put it on Instagram. So I like, wasn't posting any content. So like,

00:42:23.720 I during that time I was like discerning what to do and I didn't want to do anything like obviously

00:42:29.220 I didn't mind like I wrote like a thing put that up but I didn't start talking about it until like

00:42:33.500 a little bit after I just announced that we broke up because also I was so fresh in that first month

00:42:38.720 like I didn't know what was what so I didn't want to do it from a place of me like saying something

00:42:44.960 that I would regret or whatever so yeah it was both I knew I was going to address it because I

00:42:49.660 was like i'm gonna get asked anyway so i may as well just address it and then it was a later

00:42:54.140 thought to be like okay i'm actually gonna share more about this yeah for sure and all up from our

00:43:02.860 conversation with you um it's very obvious to to see that you've done a lot of work in the space

00:43:09.000 you know mental health wellness covid um bloody heartbreak everything so i'm wondering what's

00:43:16.820 something that you're proud of yourself for well this is something I really really struggle with

00:43:22.120 I'm so like literally my therapist always says I'll like come to her and like we'll have like

00:43:26.460 a little catch-up chat for like two seconds before we like talk about whatever and I'll always like

00:43:30.360 drop in something like about work and she'll be like wait what I'm like oh yeah like this happened

00:43:34.460 and then she'll be like that's really like big and I'm like no it's not like and I just and she's

00:43:39.240 like you're so bad like I throw everything away like I lit it's so I'm so bad at saying like I'm

00:43:45.500 proud of myself or like oh my god yeah I did that um so I'm trying it's something I'm actually

00:43:49.820 trying to work on this is therapy yeah this is therapy I am proud of um I'm proud of where I am

00:43:58.100 right now even in terms of like everything I've gone through with this like heartbreak and all

00:44:02.260 the things that's brought up for me it has been like I can't even tell you it's like all the wounds

00:44:08.260 that ever existed in me salt has just gone and every single one of them and then we're in this

00:44:13.120 lockdown so the fact that like I right now can say that like I am okay and I'm still able to

00:44:20.540 share my story and work and be existent in this crazy fucking world right now that is something

00:44:27.420 that I'm really proud of I think I don't see myself as a resilient person and this situation 0.91

00:44:32.420 that I'm in or have been in I'm just like I am so much more resilient than I ever thought I was

00:44:39.160 And even when I do slip up, like I fall into bad patterns or, you know, uh, we love when

00:44:45.760 you send your ex a text and you know, it's a bad idea.

00:44:50.520 Yeah.

00:44:50.960 I'm so much better at forgiving myself.

00:44:53.020 Like I'm usually so self-conscious and I'm like, oh my God, like, why did I do that?

00:44:56.720 Or like, they must think I'm like a stage five thing or like I've embarrassed myself

00:45:00.580 or like, they don't deserve that.

00:45:02.800 So why did I do that? 0.99

00:45:03.700 And I'm so much better at being like, no, like I'm a fucking human being. 0.95

00:45:07.480 I make not mistakes. 0.96

00:45:08.900 like I do things because I'm a human and like how am I supposed to navigate a situation and I think

00:45:13.920 the reason why I bring that up is like this situation and things like that have kind of

00:45:18.480 been a metaphor for life and being able to like forgive myself and move through things and know

00:45:23.880 that you can get through things and there is always a way through things and you're a lot

00:45:28.220 more stronger than like you think you are and it's really important to stop and like pat yourself on

00:45:33.020 the back and be like oh my god like I'm doing this like I'm doing this and I'm actually like all right

00:45:38.260 like fuck yeah like go me um so yeah that's what I'm proud of yeah I think that's something that

00:45:44.960 we could all work on I know Maggie and I are similar like when you're very ambitious or you 0.99

00:45:51.060 want certain things out of life like sometimes it's hard to slow down and be like actually

00:45:54.540 like I am proud of myself or I can forgive myself for whatever it is so yeah I think we could all

00:46:01.780 do with that especially in lockdowns um but this is coming to the end of our conversation so thank

00:46:09.320 you so much for being so open with us and so vulnerable online and through this podcast like

00:46:14.740 we really appreciate you taking the time but before we leave we would just like to ask do 0.66

00:46:20.600 you have a message to any queer babies out there who are trying to figure themselves out what 1.00

00:46:25.620 advice would you have want to heard when you were in that position um oh such a it it's 0.91

00:46:33.700 i think this is a hard question because i can give advice like as in like follow certain accounts on

00:46:42.540 social media that will give you amazing lgbtqia plus information um surround yourself with queer

00:46:48.380 people obviously if we weren't in lockdown i would say things like go to queer events and queer like

00:46:54.480 there's so many queer events whether that be like you know obviously going out to like queer bars

00:46:57.800 and stuff but there's also like so many community events that you can go to and meet people and that

00:47:01.240 helps you like just find your place but it's also this really difficult thing because why my barrier

00:47:06.880 to um coming out and kind of going the other way completely in order to like try and refuse the

00:47:14.560 the things that I felt was because I mean I grew up in a Catholic household so when I say there

00:47:19.520 was no representation it was like the opposite of representation and um you know we didn't like

00:47:25.080 the media has changed it's you know there's still a long way to go but media has changed a lot and

00:47:29.780 language has changed a lot in the past few years but when I was in school um and growing up there

00:47:34.860 was no representation anywhere it was like hush hush no one spoke about it if someone was gay you

00:47:40.080 never like it was like whispered um so it's really hard to say that because I didn't have the tools 0.97

00:47:45.820 then I thought something was wrong with me I would like cry whenever I had like queer thoughts 0.99

00:47:50.960 um I yeah it was really hard for me and there's nothing I really could have done about that at

00:47:56.860 that time because I didn't have any gay people around me I didn't have any representation I

00:48:01.200 didn't even know it was something I could talk about so you know if there is you know baby

00:48:06.260 queers listening to this right now it's just like the biggest thing I can say is that you are valid 0.98

00:48:10.700 your experience is valid and there are other people out there that are like you and and live 0.98

00:48:15.680 like you and they are happy and they are thriving and living their best fucking life so um yeah

00:48:21.720 just just explore and allow yourself to explore and discover those parts of yourself because it's 0.94

00:48:29.160 it's really beautiful if you um allow yourself permission to be on that journey unapologetically

00:48:36.120 so that's what i would say i think what a lovely way to finish the episode i don't know about you

00:48:43.580 but i've got the warmest heart now you've really brightened our afternoon so yeah just echoing

00:48:51.080 what jazz said before thank you again for honestly taking the time and like being here and being you

00:48:58.160 and sharing that with us we so appreciate it oh thank you so much thank you so much for having

00:49:02.860 me as well it's always such a compliment when someone's like come on my podcast I'm like me

00:49:06.280 me okay so nice thank you

Culture Club - September 06, 2021

The Toxic Trap of the Wellness Industry with Kath Ebbs

Episode Stats

Transcript