Culture Club - Witch Hunts, Femininity & Capitalism, With Author Lucianne Tonti

00:00:00.000 I think it's so powerful all the time, you know, when you look really beautiful, you feel the power.

00:00:04.360 We know how to take the edge off life.

00:00:05.940 That's not to be underestimated, even though they've literally spent like the last 300 years being like,

00:00:11.040 that's got no value, that's got no economic value, but get into my house and do it for me for free.

00:00:15.320 I'm Jasmine.

00:00:16.200 And I'm Maggie, and you're listening to Culture Club.

00:00:18.780 This is our monthly interview series where we sit down with the guests to chat all things life, culture and creativity.

00:00:25.020 Today we're recording on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nations.

00:00:30.000 We'd like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and extend that respect to any

00:00:34.420 Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander listeners today.

00:00:41.140 Lucy-Anne Tonti is an Australian-based fashion expert, author and journalist.

00:00:46.580 She's a fashion editor of The Saturday Paper, sustainability editor of Elle Australia and 0.80

00:00:52.200 a contributor to The Guardian.

00:00:54.060 In 2022, Lucy-Anne published her award-winning book, Sundress, Natural Fibers and the Future

00:00:59.980 of fashion which explores the garment industry and how regenerative fibre farming can help

00:01:05.600 revolutionise the future of clothing. Now Lucienne has written Good Witch, a brand new non-fiction

00:01:11.480 book that explores how the witch hunts were the catalyst for much of what is wrong with our world

00:01:16.120 today. Climate change, our disconnection from nature and the corrupt patriarchal systems. Good

00:01:21.760 Witch looks back at the witch hunts that swept Europe and America in the 16th, 17th and 18th 0.64

00:01:27.020 centuries and explores how witchy or women's work like gardening and textiles is regaining

00:01:33.200 popularity in the current moment. Thank you so much for joining us today, Lucienne. I'm so excited

00:01:38.580 to be here. I love this vibe. It's so good. We're so excited to talk to you about all things witchy.

00:01:47.060 Up first, do you consider yourself a witch or witchy? I would say that I am witchy for sure. 0.73

00:01:52.920 I get my numerology done every year before my birthday.

00:01:56.440 I have a bowl of crystals beside my bed.

00:01:59.340 You know, I'm always thrilled when I'm ovulating or menstruating on the full moon or the new moon.

00:02:05.440 Yeah, but I don't have an active kind of witchcraft practice, which, you know, a lot of people do.

00:02:11.180 So I don't want to take that, use the word witch lightly. 0.89

00:02:14.060 But, you know, I think there's something in it, right?

00:02:16.120 Everybody kind of resonates with the idea of being a witch at the moment.

00:02:20.160 Do you guys think you're witches?

00:02:21.360 I think so.

00:02:22.920 I think I'm very, like, intuitive and I like leaning into it.

00:02:27.760 Like, I love leaning into astrology, looking at traditions as well.

00:02:31.280 Like, I'm getting more into, like, looking back at Celtic traditions.

00:02:34.660 Yes, love that.

00:02:35.380 My aunt threw a winter solstice party.

00:02:37.340 I feel like a lot of women in my life are, like, reconnecting with their witchy side again and being less, like, shameful about it.

00:02:45.360 Yes.

00:02:45.780 We're going to get into it.

00:02:47.080 Yeah.

00:02:47.460 But I want to know if it's, like, part of the cultural moment.

00:02:50.220 i mean it definitely it is right you feel it everywhere practical magic 2 is coming out this

00:02:56.140 year which is a big thing i mean i know obviously my algorithm is now skewed because i've written

00:03:00.300 a book called good witch but um but yeah it's a huge part of the cultural moment and you see

00:03:05.620 people talking about it in different ways right like we have experts who are like these practices

00:03:10.260 like you know astrology that you flag tarot they're like give up people like the opportunity

00:03:15.340 to kind of self-reflect or like feel like they've got some agency because you know

00:03:19.080 it's a particularly turbulent political moment globally and with climate change on the rise and

00:03:24.760 you know we look like we're on the brink of systems collapse i think it makes sense that

00:03:29.460 people want to tap into their witchy sides but there's a big difference between kind of what

00:03:34.960 you're talking about now so like practical magic even like tarot cards and uh like tiktok witches

00:03:40.980 if you want to call it that so like the witches we know from pop culture and the witches that

00:03:45.580 you have in your book that was a big I think before I got into this book um I thought he

00:03:52.600 might be going one way right like we the witches that we see in like the 21st century but

00:03:57.200 but it's not can you talk to us a bit about the witches you chose to put in your book yeah so

00:04:02.640 like you know so I'm a journalist right so I I trade in um I try to trade in facts and research

00:04:09.540 and so like I think the entry point for a lot of people into believing that there is something

00:04:14.840 bigger at play and like entertaining the idea of witchcraft um starts with what we've been talking

00:04:20.160 about tarot and astrology astrology does have ancient roots but um you know tarot is relatively

00:04:25.200 new like and but obviously celtic practices go a long way back and so i was really looking for

00:04:31.940 it started out very much as me kind of going well really what happened during the witch hunts what

00:04:37.720 was this moment in time and I was looking for ways that ways that we can transcend and connect

00:04:46.400 to bigger things in our lives that were still grounded in kind of this reality and so the 0.99

00:04:54.320 witches that I look at they're very powerful women they were deriving power from the natural world 1.00

00:05:00.040 so they were deriving power from gardening and subsisting from the land or from growing fiber 1.00

00:05:07.300 and weaving textiles, spinning yarn, or they were, um, they knew how to, you know, harvest herbs and

00:05:14.300 how to make, um, medicine and they were healing people in their community, or they had really

00:05:19.840 strong friendships, which is, I think is something that, um, we underestimate about how important 1.00

00:05:25.120 women's social power was, um, pre, uh, pre witch hunts. And, you know, and then also just like 0.83

00:05:32.040 this the thing that's kind of ephemeral that's kind of hard to land on where it's as women we

00:05:37.400 do have this powerful connection to the natural world and you know as people we do as well and

00:05:42.300 it was something a belief system that was really widespread also pre-witch hunts that nature was

00:05:48.120 um enchanted alive imbued with sacred spirits and that we had an obligation as humans to um

00:05:55.980 to protect and to nurture and to sustain it and yeah so that was kind of my entry point to to

00:06:01.280 these um to these witches and it was very interesting what other kinds of magic like

00:06:05.920 popped up along the way you're a fashion journalist by trade as you've said and your

00:06:11.000 last book was about sustainable fashion how did you get onto the topic of witches so it's actually

00:06:18.560 kind of a neat entry point like i i was on a tour for sundressed and i was in san francisco

00:06:25.240 and that's on the outskirts of san francisco and point reyes is where the head of the regenerative

00:06:30.100 fiber farming movement began. And that's a movement called Fibershed. And I was visiting

00:06:35.560 their headquarters and I just had like an epiphany. Like I, you know, when we work in

00:06:42.480 sustainable fashion, you know, we've had these conversations, like the systems that are up

00:06:46.420 against you from improving the industry feel just so entrenched. Like it just feels like a given.

00:06:50.820 We're going to exploit the environment and we're going to exploit women's labor and we're going 1.00

00:06:54.100 to keep producing you know crap basically like you know overproducing clothes and anyway so i was at 1.00

00:07:01.640 fiber shed and i'm getting a tour of the property and you know behind the house there's a meadow 0.54

00:07:07.340 where they're growing dye plants uh there's a stream that's like flowing down beside this

00:07:12.020 enormous old tree and there's a circle of stools and you know where they do weaving and then we

00:07:17.400 got into the dye shed and it was like cauldrons everywhere um which were obviously being used like

00:07:22.180 big saucepans being used to dye the clothes and little vials of powders and you know drying herbs

00:07:27.460 and I I was like well this is it was my mind was pinging like this is the iconography of

00:07:32.760 witches and I went away this was in 2023 I went away and I just started to pull at that thread

00:07:39.700 and you see very quickly that the iconography of witchcraft was often aligned with the with

00:07:44.320 women's work and you know symbols like in Sleeping Beauty for example you know what happens she gets

00:07:51.920 she gets cursed by a witch to prick her finger on a spindle and then she's going to sleep

00:07:56.540 while she's going to die but they change the spell so that she'll sleep for a hundred years

00:07:59.860 um and that that kind of happens all the way through the fairy tales and so

00:08:05.280 also because so much of fashion you know the system changed around the time of the industrial

00:08:12.340 revolution and what you see one of the first things i learned when i was started my research

00:08:17.400 was that the 300 years the witch hunt spanned from the middle of the 15th to the middle of the

00:08:22.300 18th centuries were the 300 years leading up to the industrial revolution and that's like a real

00:08:27.120 like when you have that realization you're like okay hold on this system that we live under now 0.64

00:08:32.300 with you know all of its flaws and it's extracting from the environment and exploiting women's labor

00:08:37.320 like it was born on the tail end of 300 years of the persecution of women this part in the book

00:08:44.760 and you kind of reveal it early on. It blew my mind. I'm just going to read out a section. So you

00:08:49.980 write, the witch hunts mark the transition from a world where we understood everything to be alive

00:08:55.280 and interconnected to one where the earth was seen as a lifeless resource to be mined, pillaged and

00:09:01.020 plowed. The first thing to appreciate about this transition is the timing the witch hunts were

00:09:06.100 ending just as the industrial revolution was getting started alongside capitalism's dominance

00:09:11.400 as an economic system I just I don't think we talk about this when it comes to the witch hunts

00:09:17.780 and why is that well they get dismissed as like oh this spooky time in history like you know and

00:09:22.980 it's like we've almost deliberately associated them with like you know with riding broomsticks

00:09:28.580 and black cats and you know casting spells in in the forest and like this very kind of cheap

00:09:33.960 like I went to Salem it was the first place I visited on my research and like what's happening

00:09:38.720 there is really perverse because you have like this deep traumatic history where 19 people were

00:09:44.380 killed in the name of witchcraft in a space of six months but like this witchy tourism like laid over

00:09:50.780 the top where it's like ghost tours and you know dress-up shops and harry potter stores and um you

00:09:57.420 know really kind of tacky paraphernalia that and it's also there's also something else perverse

00:10:02.780 happening because you've got all of these tourists gathering here to learn about something you know

00:10:07.580 this tragedy, this like state sanctioned murder of, of mostly women and, you know, 14 women and

00:10:13.760 five men. And, uh, but actually what you're learning about is, is very, very gruesome and

00:10:18.900 not at all. Um, it's not a fairy tale, you know, but it, yeah. So I think it's, there's a, yeah,

00:10:26.060 there's a lot to kind of unpack there about what we think. And I also just think feminism is so 1.00

00:10:31.380 new. That was the other realization I had. I was like, okay, well actually we're only a hundred 0.99

00:10:35.800 years into feminism you know and like and the it means that like kind of our generation or my 0.97

00:10:43.500 generation and your generation I should say is we're looking around and we're going wait a minute

00:10:48.180 they told us when we were kids you know my mom's a doctor like I grew up being like yeah yeah it's

00:10:52.460 done now and now we're actually all going hold on a minute like maybe we got equal pay 50 years ago

00:10:58.160 but what else is happening in society and does this social system can this social system that was

00:11:05.300 you know born out in the cradle of of the witch hunts actually ever be properly equal for both

00:11:13.300 genders in the book it feels like there's peaks and valleys of this like witchcraft phenomenon

00:11:18.200 that like rear its head and then it will die down a bit rear its head and now it feels

00:11:22.080 culturally like we are in one at the moment like a peak because it is a time of uncertainty

00:11:27.600 why do you think that witchcraft and conversations around it peak during uncertain times so there's

00:11:35.000 so many layers to this like the first one like off the bat um is connection it gives witchcraft

00:11:41.480 gives us an opportunity to connect to the natural world whether it's just you know looking at the

00:11:46.720 phases of the moon or astrology or the migratory patterns of birds or like you know what flowers

00:11:51.400 are coming into bloom and that's not something um especially at this moment in time with what's

00:11:57.460 happening with our phones and how you know in screens we are all the time like we're really

00:12:01.340 so removed from our connection to nature and the second one is the connection to the body so

00:12:09.060 witchcraft like whether it's breath work or yoga or like whatever kind of transcendent practice

00:12:13.100 you would like to engage with it brings you back into the body and out of the mind and um you know

00:12:19.000 that's also something that we're like struggling to find as humans even though it's like we're

00:12:23.360 supposed to live in the body we're not supposed to live in the in the brain all the time and then

00:12:27.420 the third way is it brings us in connection to each other and that's also super important and

00:12:32.260 you know our lives are getting more and more isolated and siloed um because that's like the

00:12:38.480 engine of capitalism um individualism and so yeah so there are those three ways which are not to be

00:12:45.460 discredited they're extremely important but there's a deeper layer that I think is going on at the

00:12:50.080 moment where it's like we have a sense all of us I think have a sense that there is a different way

00:12:55.680 that the world could be structured and we could be living our lives in a different way we're

00:13:00.020 looking at this system and it is broken you know income inequality is you know what do they say

00:13:06.940 it's like the same as it was before the french revolution like the wealthy are getting wealthy

00:13:10.680 without even having to try and everybody else is like why can't i pay my bills so it's broken in

00:13:16.440 that way we're looking at you know we've been warned about climate change since the 80s now

00:13:21.860 And, you know, it really, it's devastating to watch the scientists go, wow, it's here.

00:13:28.380 Climate change is here.

00:13:29.440 It's arrived faster than we thought it was going to.

00:13:31.340 And we are scared at how rapidly the world is warming.

00:13:34.620 And, you know, when you see countries like, you know, you're probably about to experience

00:13:38.940 it when you go to Europe, when you're in those built up cities like London and Paris, when

00:13:42.760 there is a heat wave on, it's not like here.

00:13:45.080 We get, you can get relief here.

00:13:47.220 Nobody in those cities can get relief.

00:13:49.260 like unless you are very very wealthy and you have aircon installed like it is disgusting

00:13:54.300 I was in Paris at the end of May and it was the heat wave then it was foul anyway so we all know

00:14:00.040 the system's broken we want it we want to figure out what it looks like to and so it makes sense

00:14:05.020 to me that our entry point for um figuring out what that change looks like is witchcraft 100%

00:14:12.500 and back to the industrial revolution of it all right because and for many reasons of course we

00:14:19.080 herald this uh time and period as a incredibly innovative period where it's changed a lot for

00:14:24.760 our lives but what i didn't really realize is what life was like before it and you talk about

00:14:29.880 the commons which i'll get you to explain in a second and also you know the lack of um private

00:14:35.060 land ownership there were all these like nice morsels of things which i'm like hey let's bring

00:14:40.340 that back so can you tell us about the commons a bit yeah so the commons was you know it was a

00:14:45.180 different structure of land ownership so a common right under the law is like you have you might not

00:14:49.740 own the land but you have the right to use it so you have the right to go into the forest or into

00:14:53.820 the meadow to graze your animals and you know and to forage for berries or nuts or herbs or

00:14:59.580 or whatever it is and uh you know it meant that um there was this kind of way that people were

00:15:06.220 living that was like really able to kind of be in harmony and subsist from from the land and i i

00:15:13.100 think that you know it's a big thing in the uk like there i've been around uh at dinner parties

00:15:18.440 in london with people who are still pissed about the enclosure of the commons and who really um

00:15:23.840 believe that the land is for everybody to share and you know obviously like there's lots of overlap

00:15:28.700 with this and like you know not to speak about indigenous cultures like they're a monolith but

00:15:32.980 you know some indigenous belief systems um and it really was you know you know one of the factors

00:15:41.000 That was a causative factor in the witch hunts where, you know, in the Pendle witches, which is in part one, the gardening chapter, like those witches were living, they were, well, they probably didn't self-identify, well, they kind of did self-identify as witches to be fair, but they were kind of, they were living off the land.

00:15:55.980 They were surviving off the forest and living on the edge of the forest.

00:15:59.640 And so when King James decided to restrict access to the forest because he was going to fell it because he needed to build more ships, like that pushed this group of people further into poverty.

00:16:11.000 And that's when you see the kind of uprisings happen.

00:16:13.320 And that's when you see the, you know, the political system go, actually, hold on, we

00:16:17.020 want to control you.

00:16:18.360 Now you're in trouble. 1.00

00:16:19.540 You're witches. 0.98

00:16:20.540 It sounds so familiar.

00:16:21.980 Doesn't it?

00:16:22.820 Wow.

00:16:23.980 Yeah.

00:16:24.580 Good Witch has broken up into five categories. 1.00

00:16:27.120 Gardener, gossip, spinster, healer, and nymph.

00:16:30.120 How did you land on these five categories?

00:16:31.960 So when I wrote the book proposal back in 2023, it kind of came out of me, like formed

00:16:39.620 like along those structures so it was always but I didn't have the specific words yet so it was like

00:16:45.700 the first part was going to be gardening the second part was going to be friendship then it

00:16:49.420 would be textile work then it would be medicine and um the fifth part was like connection to the

00:16:53.240 natural world but it wasn't until I had a kind of moment when I was doing the structural rewrite

00:16:58.180 where I was like okay well actually this is really about the women and what they were doing

00:17:02.480 and it really felt this like need to kind of center them more and um gardener gossip spins

00:17:08.940 to healer were like lightning bolts like they came through really quickly gossip felt like a good one

00:17:14.260 because you know your your best friends used to be your gossips and they've really the etymology 0.99

00:17:18.280 of that word changed over the course of the witch hunts and now you know we see it we mean it means

00:17:23.080 something so derogatory to be a gossip but actually just meant that we were like best pals

00:17:28.940 um and yeah you know um spinster also a spinster again like was just somebody who was really good

00:17:36.360 spinning yarn and now also the etymology of that word has changed to mean some you know a woman

00:17:41.600 that's been left on the shelf basically and healer is also self-explanatory nymph took longer to come

00:17:49.140 through like I was really sitting it wasn't really until I was reworking that part of the book and

00:17:55.320 really like well you know these other categories just have the woman like she stepped into her

00:18:01.100 power but the nymph was um I was like drawing out um folk tales and kind of looking back trying to

00:18:08.520 find an example of of how this character had been had changed like this idea of a woman who was in

00:18:14.600 touch with nature and then it's so funny that now the odyssey is coming out because it took me to

00:18:20.740 the back to the odyssey and um yeah and that was kind of it but sometimes I think with those

00:18:26.080 creative things you've got to get a bit lucky and you've got to get a bit of a download but I'm very

00:18:30.780 proud of them I love those categories and you probably need some boundary as well because it's

00:18:34.700 such a wide like such a massive topic yes why was it the witches in Europe and America that you

00:18:42.280 specifically wanted to research that was I mean they would I feel like they were the ones who

00:18:47.980 asked me to if that makes sense so I wasn't I mean witch hunts are still happening now and

00:18:53.320 there's you know they've happened all over the world but it was for me like because uh you're

00:18:58.800 right you're kind of it's like an exercise constantly in narrowing the scope because there's

00:19:02.980 you know only so much it could be five PhDs yeah you know um and King James stepped up very early

00:19:09.820 on as my as the bad guy in this in the narrative arc and in so that gave me a tight framework

00:19:15.700 basically so he comes into power at the end of the 1500s and you know and then Salem is the end of

00:19:21.640 the 1600s and Salem also felt important to me to include because it's you know he's got this huge

00:19:26.620 presence in our pop in pop culture basically and so and then also what you get around that time is

00:19:33.540 the colonialism and the expansion and so you see the ideas that they get spread they're spreading

00:19:38.780 through europe and you know it's like religious it's political you know it's um neighborly as

00:19:44.100 well and then they get transported across the seas um into you know this expansion to the new world

00:19:49.900 and that to me was like also a really powerful expression of what we see in the lead up to

00:19:54.720 industrialization with how um colonial powers start to kind of take over and it felt like a

00:20:00.260 way to to connect all these stories but honestly really there were so many i mean you know like

00:20:05.860 there's 80 to 100 000 trials and they they didn't start in scotland where the story starts they

00:20:12.140 started in you know italy and switzerland and and it really could have gone like i could have it

00:20:18.040 could have gone much wider but to get to make the to build the argument and the and the case and to

00:20:25.020 really explore the impacts it felt important to me that there was this narrative thread you could

00:20:31.160 pull through you know for example Joan of Arc kept popping up like over and over and over again like

00:20:36.480 you would not believe the amount of coincidences where it was like put Joan of Arc in the book

00:20:40.120 like um but she was in the 13th 14th century 1300s and um she was tried for witchcraft but

00:20:47.300 she wasn't convicted of witchcraft and and even like I had a meeting with the NGB this week

00:20:53.000 because we're going to do a talk in October about the book because Alexander McQueen is

00:20:56.940 descendant from Elizabeth Howe who's in the Salem Witches and you know at the meeting they were like

00:21:02.660 oh yeah but he's also got a collection about Joan of Arc in addition to the collection about

00:21:06.160 the Salem Witches and I was like okay get it you're like another book maybe so we'll do her

00:21:12.000 in that in that one too but yeah so it did feel yeah it was like an exercise in just constantly

00:21:17.280 trying to keep it focused yeah and in each chapter you kind of go through a similar pattern where you

00:21:23.360 will look at some specific women who were tried for witchcraft I'm curious do you how do you feel

00:21:30.320 about referring to them as witches like do you think they would have liked that is you know a

00:21:35.520 lot of the time it's these women who are you know connected to the natural world or who are who

00:21:40.260 excel in women's work how do you how do you sit there yeah that's a good point I I mean I feel

00:21:46.340 like now uh there's so much pride around the idea of being associated with being a witch like almost

00:21:52.140 every woman I talk to about this book is like I would have been burnt at this stage yeah and I

00:21:57.620 you know and I think I yeah but it but back then it was very dangerous it was so dangerous to be

00:22:08.060 called a witch it was so dangerous um you know and like the these demonological theories that

00:22:14.700 pop up all through the trials were extremely dangerous um too to know about so i know they

00:22:20.440 probably wouldn't um i they wouldn't want to self-identify aware of the risk but at the same

00:22:27.260 time like um you know the pendle witches you know you know definitely had a reputation for casting

00:22:33.440 spells um and so Catherine Harrison you know self-proclaimed to be um a student of a very

00:22:40.420 famous astrologer like um Agnes Sampson in in Scotland you know she was a wise woman she was

00:22:46.900 a healer and so but she obviously getting called a witch was a huge problem for her so you know I

00:22:52.500 there's a very gray area and obviously our understanding of what the word witch has evolved

00:22:56.580 a long way because now I feel like we wear it people want to wear it as a badge of honor and

00:23:00.640 i hope that means something if they are listening i hope that means something i hope that feels like 0.96

00:23:05.360 a source of pride for them and they're not like hey this god is fucking killed i want to read an

00:23:12.320 extract from another page early on in the book before the witch hunts women were part of a 1.00

00:23:18.120 community-based workforce embedded in cooperation they spun yarn worked as healers gardened and 0.71

00:23:24.060 kept animals but after the witch hunts they were excluded from professional guilds and the formal

00:23:29.040 training that underpinned disciplines like weaving and medicine. While patriarchy existed before the

00:23:34.400 witch hunts, the subjugation of women was exacerbated by the shift away from agrarian 1.00

00:23:39.020 communal structures. How did the witch hunt stunt women's professional lives? 1.00

00:23:44.520 So, God, it's such a big question. Okay, so like if we take spinning as an example, 0.59

00:23:50.560 so if you were, lots of women spun yarn. It was a very common way for women to make money, 1.00

00:23:55.520 But we see, like I spoke about before, how the spindle becomes part of the iconography of witch hunts. 0.87

00:24:01.980 But in addition to that, so there's like a couple of different frameworks that are moving at the same time.

00:24:06.600 And so one of them is this kind of social attitude towards spinners or spinsters.

00:24:11.640 So we see in the artwork of the time and also in plays like in Shakespeare, we see spinning become associated with prostitution.

00:24:22.420 because they're trying to create, they're stigmatising the profession

00:24:27.660 and basically saying if you're working as a woman, it's dishonourable.

00:24:32.280 And, you know, there's a couple of great woodcuts that I reference

00:24:35.460 in the book where you see the spinning room kind of basically

00:24:38.840 be depicted as a brothel.

00:24:40.940 And in Shakespeare there's, you know, examples of characters

00:24:43.960 talking about a distaff and spinning like, you know,

00:24:47.120 it's a phallic metaphor essentially.

00:24:49.300 So there's that. 1.00

00:24:51.300 So it becomes increasingly dangerous if you're a woman to be earning money outside the home because you risk basically drawing the ire of other people in your community. 0.97

00:24:59.200 And we see in the trial of Katherine Harrison that actually when she's being accused by her neighbours of being a witch, one of their complaints is that she's too good at spinning yarn.

00:25:09.260 I mean, that was a complicated trial.

00:25:10.560 There was lots of stuff going on and bad actors.

00:25:13.160 But, you know, so in that way, then once it's become dangerous for you to have this set of skills, you know, you're less likely to want to work outside the home and also that work becomes devalued.

00:25:27.560 And we see with spinning, we see the extension of that devaluation right up like all the way through the Industrial Revolution.

00:25:34.900 And I believe that's why garment workers are still paid so little today, although that's a harder one to play out with research.

00:25:42.220 healing is another really great example like you know it's so many women were healers in their

00:25:47.740 communities all the way through um you know prior to the witch hunts and continuing through the

00:25:52.620 witch hunts and the renaissance but uh we see in this example we see the church um decree that any

00:25:59.600 woman who's um practicing magic practicing healing rather is um calling on supernatural powers and 0.88

00:26:05.880 therefore should be condemned as a witch um we see them get excluded so they were allowed to train

00:26:10.740 they trained at there was this university in italy and they the doctors that trained there 0.84

00:26:15.620 were called the ladies of salerno um and you know we see laws get passed that mean that they can no

00:26:20.900 longer get the formal education that's required to be a doctor um and so sometimes it's overt like

00:26:27.280 with healing it's extremely overt it was like if you're doing this and you're a woman you're a

00:26:31.780 witch and you know it's like clear as day written in the law but yeah no and with spinning it's kind

00:26:36.280 of more subtle um but really what it meant was that by the end by the time we get to the industrial

00:26:41.440 revolution all of these puritanical kind of structures that say that a woman needs to be

00:26:46.600 in the home and that the man goes out and earns the money are like very much at play because that's

00:26:52.180 what i was getting reading the book like oh my gosh so many of our structures like the

00:26:55.900 devaluation of women's work and the fact that we're paid less than men still to this day it

00:27:01.360 does feel like it stems uh it's all interconnected yeah from around the witch hunt times yeah just

00:27:07.460 amazing a hundred percent because also like so it's like the industrial revolution comes in and

00:27:12.780 say with with medicine what that means is we've had the scientific revolution and you're starting 0.97

00:27:17.680 to establish the principles of modern medicine off the back of the exclusion of women so it's 0.96

00:27:22.700 a vacuum for women's knowledge and women's contributions and and it's like the perfect

00:27:28.740 storm where then you accelerate it with all of these modern discoveries and so we leap forward

00:27:32.920 200 years when women are allowed back in in the middle of the 19th century and you know so much

00:27:38.880 has happened that's already going in the favor of men that uh it's we're still at a disadvantage now 0.57

00:27:44.440 because it's not it's only 150 years on from that and you know medicine is just such a great example

00:27:51.140 because obviously women weren't included in clinical trials until the 1990s which is just like

00:27:57.540 so we don't even have good like we've got no good data and you know medical misogyny is a whole

00:28:02.300 other thing but yeah but it's linked all of it's linked it reminds me of there was a quote that

00:28:07.000 you also brought into your book um you might have to correct me because I don't have it in front of

00:28:11.780 me but somebody was like why did they do this they must have had to fear women so much for this to

00:28:17.240 happen and it's just because it's baffling it it's just it like infuriates me I think yes so I feel

00:28:23.920 reading um some of the things that you know we're reading things that happened hundreds of years ago 1.00

00:28:28.220 yet it's still so relevant to today yeah and it is infuriating but then when you see women 0.99

00:28:33.880 you know like we're really stepping into so much power now and you see the way that they're trying 0.97

00:28:38.300 to shut us up like you know whether it's reproductive rights or like the pushback

00:28:43.300 against me too or the rise of the tried wife movement like it is the concerted effort that

00:28:48.700 the patriarchy has to put in to suppressing our power and our like innate goodness and you know

00:28:54.800 our ability to like have these beautiful friendships and to be empathetic and intuitive

00:28:59.320 and understand each other it makes something beautiful like uh you know these are things

00:29:04.020 it's like I sometimes think like well it's no wonder they had to like basically enslave us to

00:29:08.960 marry them because because of course it's you know you want a woman around we're so desirable 0.66

00:29:14.840 like it's it's um yeah and I feel for men because you know straight single men like their lives are 0.98

00:29:23.160 like empty husks like where are your books where's your art like why don't you know how to cook 0.93

00:29:28.560 anything there's a great scene where you and a friend like go to a party with a man's party and

00:29:34.020 then you go back really quickly like this is that was awful like gets back to the the glasses with

00:29:38.980 the stars on them and like whimsy yeah do you think that the rise of whimsy is also a part of

00:29:45.980 this I feel like online there's so much talk about like whimsy and beautifying things do you think

00:29:50.760 that is an intuitive like aspect of women like wanting to have that power back again yeah I hope

00:29:57.380 so because like I don't you know feminine things have so much power in them like I saw Pamela 0.99

00:30:04.260 Anderson speak at the global fashion summit and she was advocating for political change 0.99

00:30:07.900 but she was doing it in this like you know she's so charismatic she's so beautiful like she's got

00:30:13.140 this softness to her voice and like just commanding the attention of the room in this way where I was

00:30:18.540 like no wonder they're trying to squash this all the time and yeah we should be embracing what's

00:30:24.000 powerful about our femininity 100% and whimsy's a I mean whimsy's super persuasive let's have some

00:30:30.240 more whimsy i mean i feel like we don't hear femininity being put in the same sentence as

00:30:38.140 powerful much unless it's perhaps by men yielding it as something like oh it you're using it or

00:30:44.000 sexuality yeah that's true but in what ways for you have you seen that femininity can be powerful

00:30:50.920 oh my gosh i just think it's so powerful i think it's so powerful all the time like i um i don't

00:30:57.240 know like and you feel it you know like you feel it when you're when you know when you look really

00:31:01.900 beautiful you feel the power that that that has over um not just men around you but you know women

00:31:07.860 and children like over everything like it's very so I should probably stop hitting the mic it's

00:31:12.320 extremely powerful um and you know I think too like there are examples that pop up online of

00:31:18.560 um you know people in women in the states disarming gunmen by giving them a hug you know

00:31:24.080 and like protecting schools from school you know it's you watch somebody how they respond when you

00:31:28.420 go and treat them with compassion and kindness and empathy and respect and like you know or even just

00:31:33.360 like a hot bath with some with some rose petals like a little glass of wine and some nice music

00:31:40.620 like there's a you know it's um we just know how to make life we know how to take the edge off life

00:31:46.620 and I think that's really uh that's not to be underestimated even though they've literally

00:31:52.440 spent like the last 300 years being like that's got no value that's got no economic value but

00:31:57.180 get into my house and do it for me for free yes gosh yeah you briefly uh talked about the

00:32:04.840 definition of gossip and how that changed over time another word you talk about in the book is

00:32:10.300 the word glamour can you please tell listeners how that's changed as well so basically in the

00:32:14.900 18th century that was like a scottish word is it's evolved from a scottish word grammary which

00:32:21.180 i'm sure i'm saying incorrectly which meant to cast a spell over the eye and i just find that

00:32:26.220 so interesting because you know we love fashion and like and having spent so much of my life like

00:32:32.840 you know talking about how clothes transform and how they make you feel certain ways it's

00:32:37.640 i find it so just so fascinating that like this idea that you would cast a spell has then you

00:32:44.060 know evolved over time to mean glamour and glamorous which you know i think is also again

00:32:49.760 a very powerful feminine trait but we have also come to um deride it as you know superficial and

00:32:55.860 just like you know um very hollow which i think is just so unfair but we see just constantly with

00:33:03.460 these words like how um their association with femininity becomes like uh links them to witchcraft

00:33:10.540 and like and then kind of what happens afterwards like it's just it runs through our whole lives

00:33:16.280 this concept of magic and uh and the fact that like they basically had to hunt us for 300 years

00:33:23.180 to get us to stop believing in it is very interesting to me yeah well I feel like one

00:33:27.980 of the big north stars of your book is a quote by scholar Silvio Federici um who wrote the world had

00:33:34.420 to be disenchanted in order to be dominated I know oh brutal isn't it brutal do you think we've done

00:33:40.140 that yeah 100% well I mean people don't believe in magic anymore before the witch hunts there

00:33:45.200 are three main dominant belief systems, religion, science, and magic. And now we just have religion

00:33:51.180 and science and not really, you know, religion's questionable at the moment. And yeah, and I don't,

00:33:57.480 we don't, especially, it's not true that it's, it's not universal, but if we're talking about

00:34:02.800 it from the perspective of kind of Australians, white Australians existing in this country, 0.92

00:34:07.100 like I am, you know, it's very much, you know, it's treated like you're a big cuckoo. When,

00:34:12.940 And when I initially started telling people I was writing about witches, there were kind of two schools.

00:34:17.380 There were people like you who were like, I'm a witch.

00:34:20.200 Tell me everything you know.

00:34:21.580 And then there were people who were like, oh, that's cute.

00:34:24.460 Oh, that's a bit quirky, you know.

00:34:26.240 And it's like, oh, like who and obviously which I hated.

00:34:29.240 But I also also you learn very quickly who the book is for and who isn't.

00:34:32.700 But I do think that's like the dominant attitude.

00:34:35.500 And even the fact that we have we are so far away from feeling like we have any obligation to forests.

00:34:42.020 and you know the oceans that we're so proud of and you know just these incredible landscapes that we

00:34:47.340 exist in that like that feed us that clothe us that you know get to dictate how comfortable we

00:34:53.220 are as we go about our days and we we have I feel like there is almost zero respect for the natural

00:34:59.600 world and then when you try to like that's embodied you know in our societies but when you

00:35:04.760 start talking to people about it especially our forests in Australia like when you go to a forest

00:35:09.900 in Europe it is like what the hell this is not a forest like these trees are so small and they're

00:35:17.180 all the same type in age and like where is the wildlife I can't see any birds and you know and

00:35:21.780 when you go into a forest like an Australian forest it's a spiritual experience you know it's

00:35:26.760 silent it you like it's like this completely like you know it's olfactory it's like just this other

00:35:32.720 it's these other sensations and um i really don't think that we appreciate how enchanting

00:35:39.680 that stuff is and we don't we don't even label it like that you know it's like oh yeah it's nice to

00:35:45.120 go into the deep bush get away from it all and you're so right on that note can we get you to

00:35:52.160 please read out a section which i think nicely expands on that yeah sure we have lost sight of

00:35:57.460 something our lives depend on. We are nature. We cannot survive unstable, volatile, and extreme

00:36:03.100 weather events. We cannot escape the impact of rising sea levels and deadly heat waves.

00:36:07.900 Without clean air, healthy soil, rivers, forests, lakes, oceans, and meadows,

00:36:12.040 both mentally and physically, we will meet the limits to our existence.

00:36:16.280 Science has shown us all the way our bodies are connected to nature. Our blood has a concentration

00:36:20.520 of salt and other ions that is remarkably similar to seawater. When we go outside,

00:36:25.440 into nature, studies show our heart rate and blood pressure drops within seconds and that

00:36:29.800 the stress hormone cortisol drops after 20 to 30 minutes. Exposure to birdsong has been proven to

00:36:35.420 alleviate symptoms of anxiety and paranoia. Being near bodies of water reduces heart rate and blood

00:36:41.020 pressure and enhances feelings of relaxation. Walking barefoot on the earth has been connected

00:36:46.080 with improved sleep quality and reduced inflammation. Exposure to sunlight stimulates

00:36:51.180 serotonin in the brain and is essential for mood and circadian rhythm alignment like the dryads of

00:36:56.560 the woods naiads of the caves and nairads of the sea this is our home and deciding to dominate 0.93

00:37:02.140 and destroy the planet has always been patently short-sighted and foolish i love it i think it's

00:37:09.520 something that you're quite good at maggie incorporating nature into your life and i think 0.89

00:37:14.580 I treat nature like rest in that it's like a nice to have and you can do it once everything else is

00:37:22.140 done and like have you completed all your obviously work tasks but like your caring tasks and like

00:37:27.540 make sure your friends are all okay have you spent enough time with them and then only then will I go

00:37:32.000 into nature but sometimes you feel it which is like I grew up by the beach and so now I'm like

00:37:37.160 I need to be in a body of salt water and like getting in touch with that um feeling of yeah

00:37:43.400 intuition I think is totally witchy 100% I mean it's been like pushed down like no you have to

00:37:49.800 do your productive capitalist tasks first yeah before you can go to the beach and that's like

00:37:54.720 so luxurious to be on a beach yeah which is not we're not designed to live like that I um heard

00:38:00.620 a podcast with Michael Pollan where he talked about new research that I should have looked up

00:38:05.080 before I started talking about this but he talked about new research that shows that uh so much of

00:38:09.580 our consciousness isn't actually in the brain it's in the body but like we're living in this

00:38:14.160 world and um you know Descartes was one of the philosophers during the renaissance that I write

00:38:18.820 about in the book and he is I think therefore I am you know which is like very much like we are

00:38:24.420 superior the superior beings because we live in the mind and they're so wrong like we should be

00:38:30.500 listening to tapping in and being like what is what is my gut instinct about this what does my

00:38:35.820 body actually want and what it's telling me that I need today and stop like living so much in

00:38:40.040 in the brain so true and to that nature point as well because I know some listeners will be like

00:38:44.860 I live in such an urban area there's you know there's not much nature around I kind of relate

00:38:50.160 to that too but I think finding just moments with plant life that could just literally be like the

00:38:56.980 tree in your like when you're on the nature strip in your neighbor's house and things like that can

00:39:02.480 be so special i have a really fond memory of one of me and a friend we were just out not in a

00:39:08.420 particularly nice nature spot but she would every so often just stop go talk to the tree give a tree

00:39:14.200 a hug especially it was like a big like old growth tree um and just and seeing that play out i was

00:39:19.620 like that is magic and that was such a beautiful connection point that we can all lean into yeah

00:39:24.260 yeah you get energy i always try to because i'm not in nature that often when i'm on a bushwalk

00:39:28.720 I will go up to old trees as well and like put my hands on it and just like have a moment and you

00:39:34.000 feel the power and I can feel myself already being like oh not to be a hippie or like not to be a

00:39:39.400 woo-woo you can feel that like misogynistic side already coming up talking about it yeah

00:39:43.980 let's go love it yeah we're almost finishing up um but we would like to ask how do you recommend

00:39:52.180 us all getting in touch with our witchy sides wow what a beautiful question um i think you know

00:39:59.660 you did a solstice ritual i think that's something really beautiful something to connect with the

00:40:04.200 seasons i love a tarot card deck like you know even just um pulling one card and and you know

00:40:11.440 seeing what it's like how it speaks to you i think is really good definitely i mean i love

00:40:17.260 I love a good um somatic workout to get into the body and a friend of mine teaches these classes

00:40:23.020 called burn which I think is very witchy and I that I also because it's usually a room full of 0.82

00:40:28.940 mostly women and there's like heavy breathing that's going on and like very it's a you're 1.00

00:40:33.220 tapping into some really high feminine energy like collectively all together which I think is also

00:40:37.760 a great way to be witchy oh my god there's so many ways I think also like at the moment you

00:40:42.800 know there's so many beautiful rainbow lorikeets around and to me just like kind of listening to

00:40:47.140 them in the mornings um also I feel it gives me a good sense go outside look at the moon I don't

00:40:52.320 know everything yeah everything is witchy everything is witchy every week on our podcast

00:40:58.500 we give our listeners recommendations of something we've loved watching reading or listening to

00:41:02.580 that week can you please share a recommendation that you've been loving

00:41:05.720 oh I mean I'm a big house of the dragons fan at the moment I think anything that's like a little

00:41:13.520 bit removed i couldn't do the pit it gave me too much anxiety but you know it's a game of thrones

00:41:18.160 sequel and um i just love emma darcy they are just like you know just so phenomenal i saw them do a

00:41:26.440 reading of maggie nelson's bluets in london once and i was really like yeah it was a an amazing

00:41:34.280 experience so yeah that would be my rec perfect thank you so much for sitting down with us lucian

00:41:39.940 it's been a pleasure no thank you guys I'm really um it's so nice to talk to people who are so

00:41:45.420 engaged by the text and I'm really impressed by your questions we're teachers pets so that means

00:41:51.100 a lot to us replaying that audio um where can people find more of your work and your book uh

00:42:01.000 so I write in Elle and The Guardian and the Saturday paper like you mentioned I have a

00:42:06.140 substat called the line um obviously you can buy good witch i implore you to buy good witch

00:42:10.860 um and you can still buy sundress too um that's around so yeah i'm around

00:42:15.780 thank you so much thanks guys thanks for your time so nice

Culture Club - August 06, 2026

Witch Hunts, Femininity & Capitalism, With Author Lucianne Tonti

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