Culture Study Podcast - A Very Funny Episode About Being a ＂Childless Freak＂

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00:00:57.260 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:01:05.580 And I'm Natasha Veinblatt. I'm a comedian and TV writer living in New York City.

00:01:10.320 Tell me about your one-woman show.

00:01:12.320 Yeah, absolutely. So it's a new stand-up hour, and this is the first time I've done an hour that's not just a collection of my best jokes.

00:01:22.520 This is specifically about how I came to the decision not to have kids.

00:01:28.740 And it was born from sheer confusion and ambivalence about the choice because I spent years just

00:01:35.140 really unsure.

00:01:36.360 And the only way I know how to process anything as a writer and comedian is to write about

00:01:41.420 it.

00:01:41.760 So it started with just diary entries and long-winded journal pieces.

00:01:47.720 And then through several years, I coalesced.

00:01:51.220 Is that the right word?

00:01:51.920 or refined into, I think, the best thing I've ever written so far.

00:01:59.780 And yeah, so it's an hour of stand-up, but there is an arc,

00:02:03.400 and it feels a little right in the middle of a storytelling show

00:02:06.320 and a stand-up hour.

00:02:08.000 What is the arc?

00:02:09.340 Because I also think the arc is like, people would be like,

00:02:12.660 how is that funny?

00:02:13.520 And I'm like, it's actually pretty funny how you come to these decisions.

00:02:16.060 Well, the realization is ultimately learning that that's what I wanted all along, and it took me forever to trust my choice, which I think is the story for most women who say that they don't want kids immediately get pushed back.

00:02:31.540 We live in a culture where we are, as women, are told not to trust our choices and our instincts unless it's our maternal instinct. 0.55

00:02:39.140 And so it's a joke I have on the show that any other instinct we have, society is like, you're crazy.

00:02:46.060 But if we're like, I want a parasite growing inside of me, everyone's like, yes, that's 0.92

00:02:50.500 a good idea.

00:02:53.060 So it just took me so long to be comfortable with trusting my own instincts.

00:02:58.740 So the realization is I have to be okay with other people seeing me as a freak.

00:03:03.060 And that doesn't mean that that is true to how I actually feel.

00:03:08.380 Yeah.

00:03:08.800 Okay.

00:03:09.060 So we're going to talk a lot about this, I think, through the show.

00:03:12.180 Please.

00:03:12.460 How other people's momentary perception of you as a freak, how someone's judgment, how you can come to this point where you realize that's actually someone else's business.

00:03:26.700 What that person thinks of me is their business.

00:03:29.580 It's not mine, right?

00:03:31.680 It's not my conception of self.

00:03:34.300 And it's so easy to say but so hard to actually live.

00:03:37.860 The comfort and the willingness to not control other people's opinions and also to not feel that those opinions are a reflection on yourself.

00:03:49.860 I mean, it's so hard to do.

00:03:52.720 Where does the name Childless Freak come from?

00:03:54.820 It comes from the fact that deep down my fear was that if I lived this life, some people would pity me and others would see me as a childless freak. So me calling the show that ultimately is embracing the reality that that might even be the case for some people, that some people might see me that way and it doesn't matter.

00:04:18.860 Right, right, right. Because I think sometimes the impulse is to be like, no, you can live your life and like no one will ever levy this judgment on you. And that's not the case. Like people are going to think that you're a childless freak. You just have to figure out how you feel about it.

00:04:34.320 Yes. And in little, I think, you know, microaggressions is such a, I feel like now, outdated, overused term. But there were all of these, as I was grappling with the choice and wondering why do I keep like, essentially the show is, starts with me being like, so I decided I'm not having kids. And then the unraveling of being like, of me thinking that, wait, maybe I've made a terrible mistake.

00:04:57.020 Like I even had my husband get a vasectomy and post vasectomy.

00:05:01.040 I was like, I think actually this was an error, even though I was the one that brought it

00:05:04.920 up and initially encouraged him to do it.

00:05:08.320 And that was because at every step along the way, people I cared about who loved me would

00:05:14.360 say things that made me think I had done something wrong or would say things that made me think,

00:05:22.900 oh, wait, this actually is a choice that they are sad for me for, embarrassed, all of those things.

00:05:29.480 So I had to keep pushing back against not only what strangers would say, the hardest part was

00:05:35.240 people who I love and care about and who I know feel the same way about me. But it's just these

00:05:40.860 biases are so deep and they're so ingrained. Did you have any childless women in your life

00:05:47.620 when you were growing up so that was the other element i had basically one and i didn't know

00:05:53.780 her very well like she wasn't necessarily a part of the family um and i'm an only child too so it's

00:06:00.120 like so the the quick backstory as i was born in russia and then my parents and i when i was seven

00:06:06.840 we moved to the u.s and so already my like family was pretty limited to just you know my parents my

00:06:14.320 grandmother and me. But granted, when we moved to the US, we were in this immigrant neighborhood

00:06:19.480 where it was a bunch of recent Russian immigrants who were coming to the US. And most of those

00:06:24.040 kids and their families kind of became, not necessarily my family, but certainly

00:06:28.660 role models and people who I kind of base my decisions on. And all of those adults were

00:06:35.000 people with kids. And then their friends were essentially other Russian immigrants with kids.

00:06:40.180 So there were so few adults who didn't have kids. And I would hear the way that my parents and their friends would talk about those people. And it wasn't cruel, but you would just hear little things like, oh, I hope she's okay. I'm sad for her.

00:07:00.260 And that really built a belief system in me that even if that woman seems okay and my immediate impression is, wait, I like her and I actually think I want to be like her, I then immediately question that choice because I remember how other adults saw her and talked about her.

00:07:20.280 Yes. I think this is very, very common. I also am realizing, and you telling me this, that immigrant stories are so often family stories. Even if it's someone who comes over by themselves, like, it's to form a family, right? Like, the narrative is towards family, always.

00:07:41.120 It's such a – honestly, I didn't think about that until this point too.

00:07:44.740 Yeah, spot on.

00:07:46.580 And something that was really tough was when I told my parents I wasn't going to be having kids because that also stops that dream.

00:07:56.580 My kids would be first generation.

00:07:58.960 And that is just not happening.

00:08:01.600 Right.

00:08:02.500 Yeah.

00:08:02.900 And I'm so glad that we're having you on the show, too, because I think sometimes it's really easy to have these conversations with people who have always been like, no kids from the start.

00:08:12.040 Like, that is just their identity.

00:08:14.460 They're very, it's very easy for them to talk about it.

00:08:16.900 It's very easy to, like, allow other people's assumptions about it to bounce off of them.

00:08:22.860 But many, many more people experience this sort of ambivalence.

00:08:26.620 And I actually, like, for me, I, like, there's a different universe where I have kids.

00:08:32.080 Totally.

00:08:32.900 Like, it's not like I don't like kids. It's that the life I wanted to have right now in this country with this reality could not involve kids.

00:08:44.240 Yeah. I'm like, I got chills with that statement. Exactly. That's how I feel exactly. And I think for many women, and I'm speaking for myself, but I think this is true, that if you feel ambivalent, it almost feels like, well, then the answer is you do want kids.

00:09:00.320 Right. But the reality is, no, that means you're simply not sure. And both options could be options that would make you happy. But right, in this context, in this lifetime, right now, what is the best choice? And that was exactly what happened for me too.

00:09:19.240 I think part of the ambivalence was I don't – honestly, I just never really thought about it.

00:09:25.760 It was always something that I assumed would happen because I grew up in the suburbs surrounded by families.

00:09:30.900 But it was never something I was working towards.

00:09:33.620 So then the deadline kind of came in my mind where I turned 35 and I was like, wait, I haven't – I'm married.

00:09:40.420 My husband and I have been married for a decade.

00:09:42.540 But we keep being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it'll happen when we're ready.

00:09:46.300 and there was no part of me that kept being like, oh, now we're ready.

00:09:50.080 So the clock started, my biological clock was finally ticking.

00:09:55.880 And I also found myself not wanting to freeze my eggs.

00:09:59.920 And that's what everyone was telling me.

00:10:01.840 And so then I thought, okay, if I'm not going to freeze my eggs

00:10:04.480 and I keep delaying this, let me actually take a year to really just think about it.

00:10:09.600 I read like every book under the sun about maternal ambivalence

00:10:12.920 and listened to every podcast.

00:10:15.740 Wow. Yeah, because I, you know, I'm like a diligent A plus student, little immigrant girl.

00:10:22.200 I wanted to nail the assignment. And then at the end of it, I still was unsure because

00:10:26.140 ultimately what I needed to do was just trust the decisions I'd already been making, which was

00:10:30.760 not making it a priority. Yeah. Okay. So today we're talking about the way we talk about not

00:10:36.960 having kids. We're talking about the discourse of not having kids. And we've been doing a series on

00:10:41.040 my newsletter where i talk to people about their vibrant lives that they live without kids

00:10:47.080 we're essentially like bringing representation to the people because i think a lot of people

00:10:54.100 are like you and me we just didn't have a ton of people out there who were women specifically

00:11:00.100 yes who were living these lives who weren't objects of pity right who were like so i just

00:11:06.000 that's what we're doing right now and i wanted to talk to you about this because i wanted to talk

00:11:10.400 about like how we grapple with how people talk to us about it. And we have so many great listener

00:11:17.720 questions. We're going to go through a bunch of them. This first one comes from Melanie.

00:11:22.700 I have two questions. First, one of the common themes that comes up around not having kids is

00:11:28.260 the idea that to be child free is somehow selfish. Similarly, as a woman who has been vocal about not

00:11:34.340 wanting kids for many years, I've also faced stigmas of being cold, unloving, or somehow

00:11:39.420 deficient as a woman? What's behind all of these biases and assumptions? And second, people have

00:11:45.200 been telling me for over 20 years since I was 13, I'm now 35, that one day I'll change my mind about

00:11:51.540 not wanting kids, but I'm still happily child free. Why do people trust me to know myself and

00:11:56.660 what I want, but not when it comes to being a parent or not? Okay, so I feel like especially

00:12:01.660 that last question is just like made for you. Yeah, I mean, every piece I'm like, there's three

00:12:07.520 different things I want to talk about in this question. Okay. Let's start with the last one

00:12:11.260 and then we'll work backwards. Why do people trust me to know myself? You're like, I'm a

00:12:15.800 grown ass adult and they trust you to like, I don't know, do your taxes, but not about being 0.95

00:12:20.180 a parent. I think my thinking is there's, I think there's like one, there's a kind read and then 0.97

00:12:26.720 there's a more, um, maybe less generous read. So I think the kinder read of societal pressure is

00:12:35.620 so many people are so fulfilled from their life as parents. And I think for many people,

00:12:41.940 that is the biggest meaning maker in their lives. So they want that for other people.

00:12:48.000 I totally get that. I think the larger piece is we live in a pro natalist society. And it feels

00:12:56.120 like we need to make sense of people by their families, the choices that they make as it feels

00:13:04.120 like, well, that's how you become an adult. That's how you know somebody is responsible and has

00:13:08.500 entered society as a mature adult. So I think it just is inherent in just the way that we see the

00:13:18.380 world. And I think it's really hard for people, especially if they haven't been brave enough to

00:13:24.460 make a different choice, to see that choice being made by others. I also think that it's like

00:13:29.900 people who make a different choice than you problematize your choice. I think people

00:13:36.580 oftentimes just want to make a choice and then to live in that choice and not have it questioned

00:13:42.480 or just to like feel very, very confident in it. Like it's faith, right? It's very similar

00:13:47.880 to religious faith, I think. When someone who has made a different choice comes along,

00:13:54.340 it it introduces that like what if it like makes it more difficult to think about that

00:14:01.080 and so I like that just is a natural way and it could be any decision it could be having kids it

00:14:06.460 could be buying a house it could be getting married like there's so many different life

00:14:11.460 things that someone who has made a different choice and is still happy destabilizes your choice

00:14:17.060 and so it's almost like you're just trying to get them onto your team so that you are no longer

00:14:20.800 destabilized. Does that make sense? 1000%. I mean, I couldn't agree more. And I think

00:14:26.440 I always can tell when somebody is comfortable in their life. And simply by them not forcing

00:14:34.360 something on me or somebody else, you know, it's such a marker of like, Oh, you're fine.

00:14:39.140 Yeah. That's cool. Right? Like they'll react to your life is like, that's cool that you did that,

00:14:43.980 right? Instead of like astonishment. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. There's the other parts of her

00:14:50.620 question. Let's see. The idea that like, you'll change your mind. That like, yeah, you feel this

00:14:58.620 way now. But when you like mature, and some of that I think is like, you'll get desperate and

00:15:06.340 be like, Oh, who's gonna take care of me? I don't know. It's something about like people like as

00:15:11.560 they get older, they're like, well, now I want to be a real adult, that you'll grow out of not

00:15:17.180 wanting kids almost. Yes. And it reminds me, I wish I remember which of the bajillion books I

00:15:23.440 read about independence. But there was one, there was an excellent quote where the author was

00:15:29.420 talking about how one of the biggest fears people have is, will I regret this? Certainly,

00:15:34.560 I don't regret this now, but later in life, will I regret this choice? And she said,

00:15:39.200 the best way to tell if you'll feel this way is if you felt this way before. So when you've made

00:15:44.580 other decisions later in life, you know, do you feel this immense sense of regret, one. And two,

00:15:52.100 it's such a limited way of thinking about regret and choice because even if later in life you get

00:15:58.380 to a point and say, oh, there are these things I would have liked about this life, it doesn't mean

00:16:03.660 that means the feelings will be painful it also doesn't it also assumes that you won't change at

00:16:09.360 all yeah there's just this weird I think something also I ended up realizing which was I think in my

00:16:16.040 mind I assume that once you get to retirement you know almost like your life is done in that

00:16:24.400 mentally you've done all the work to be happy and then you'll never you'll never be sad again

00:16:28.780 if you've made all the right choices you know yeah and so I've just come to the realization

00:16:35.160 that's just not the way we live our lives and thank god because it would be so boring if you

00:16:40.260 reach this I don't know this plateau at 65 and never feel anything but like a bland sense of 0.97

00:16:47.700 joy again that would be miserable it's certainly also not true of the retired people that I know

00:16:52.520 yeah there's like a lot of life changing and reinventing and reconfiguration going on and

00:17:00.240 who's to say that the kid you have is the exact vision of the kid you're gonna have

00:17:05.860 there's 10 000 different kids out there you know i just it's so it's such a limited belief yeah yeah

00:17:13.480 i've read enough like reddit regretful parents to know that there's so many unknowns do you feel

00:17:20.800 I'm just thinking about this as we're talking about like knowing oneself do you feel like you

00:17:26.480 trust yourself more now yes just living in this decision like you're like I feel like I can make

00:17:33.900 other decisions too yes I mean I think what I came to realize with this choice too is we really don't

00:17:43.160 what we should as a society instead of prescribe the way we people should live what we should do

00:17:48.400 is teach people to make decisions.

00:17:50.040 That's really what is missing from our society.

00:17:53.560 Because I didn't have the faculty or the knowledge

00:17:57.980 to make this choice.

00:17:59.340 The only other time I feel like I'd made a big choice

00:18:01.380 was, do I want to get married or not?

00:18:03.620 Or what college do I want to go to?

00:18:06.060 But it's just, why not spend time teaching young people

00:18:11.520 and adults how to decide things for themselves?

00:18:14.940 We would have such a healthier society.

00:18:16.500 I think a lot of the friction that we have in our lives now, and I think this is particularly acute for women, but I think everyone feels it, is that we ostensibly live in a society where we have liberty to do anything that we want, right?

00:18:31.640 ostensibly and this is like freedom is like the undergirds all of these different things right

00:18:38.140 especially if you're a conservative ironically when actually there are these prescribed norms

00:18:44.660 that really dictate what we understand is like the available paths for a person and these celebrated

00:18:52.820 paths forward yes it's it's just so funny because now it's holiday season and so we're getting all

00:18:59.140 of these Christmas cards and these holiday cards, and I think they're really fun.

00:19:03.480 I think it's so sweet that people think about us and send us a card, but it is also such

00:19:09.880 a hammering home of this is success, this is the way you live your life, your family

00:19:16.000 gets bigger, your house gets bigger, you have more kids, you have more pets, whereas – because

00:19:23.140 every year I'm like, we've got to send a card and do something funny with our card

00:19:26.760 that just pushes the envelope of what is normal.

00:19:31.020 And then every year I don't prioritize it.

00:19:33.420 But it's such a little things like that.

00:19:36.740 I'm like, it really is reminding us

00:19:39.300 that there is one path that is celebrated in our culture.

00:19:43.020 Yes.

00:19:43.500 Well, and this gets to the idea,

00:19:44.780 the first part of this listener's question

00:19:46.540 about how being child-free is selfish.

00:19:49.240 And actually a recent interview that we did

00:19:51.100 in the newsletter with the author Maggie Shipstead

00:19:53.560 was about like at the heart of the conversation

00:19:56.740 was this idea that actually it's the inverse if you think about it like reproducing yourself is

00:20:03.400 somewhat selfish like but I think it's a there's two different understandings of what

00:20:10.480 selfish is here and maybe that's where this gets confused totally I mean and I think yeah I think

00:20:16.960 the question itself is wrong because neither choice is inherently selfless or selfish it

00:20:23.400 depends it depends on the person yeah because yeah if i am raising a kid for my legacy because

00:20:30.840 i want them to be a reflection of me in the world that reflects positively back on me that's kind

00:20:36.900 of selfish and if instead i'm like i'm not gonna have kids because i know if i had a kid i would

00:20:43.460 spend most of my energy raising this one kid where instead what i could do is give back to society

00:20:51.360 volunteer etc that's quite selfless but yeah if instead it's like well I'm you know I was about

00:20:57.800 to be like oh but instead if I don't volunteer and just focus on myself I still am like I don't

00:21:02.920 think that's selfish because the better balanced of a human you can be in a society the better it

00:21:09.120 is for society yeah no and I think too about like a lot of people um in the comments of that post

00:21:14.560 we're talking about how like i am chronically ill and like if i had kids i would not be able

00:21:21.800 to focus on keeping myself healthy so how do you like is that selfish right maybe because it's about

00:21:28.980 maintaining the self right maintaining the health of the self but i also think we venerate people

00:21:35.620 who sacrifice the self in ways that are not always healthy and that actually create really toxic home

00:21:43.500 environments and like or people who are forced into parenthood and don't want to be parents this

00:21:49.580 is so true of like even two generations ago like just not even having that choice about having kids

00:21:55.580 or how many kids you want to have and how that affects your kids too totally i think maybe my

00:22:02.240 bold statement is i think being a happy person is the best thing you can do for society yeah

00:22:08.720 Yeah. Figuring out what that looks like. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or being fulfilled because then

00:22:15.080 in little ways you're less snippy at the grocery store. But on top of that, you know,

00:22:20.480 you're more giving and grateful of your time and energy. So entirely. Yeah. And like,

00:22:27.380 I think you've got to figure out what makes you happy first. And if kids is not that,

00:22:31.420 then don't do it. It'll only make you miserable. And then the rest of your life and world will be

00:22:35.380 miserable and then your kids will spend a lot of time figuring out how to grapple with like

00:22:39.060 your misery yes and we'll like you know that you feel that you're miserable yeah i think 0.93

00:22:45.760 yeah it's just so toxic 0.75

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00:26:35.320 your local grocery store. Okay, next question is about some of the cliched responses that people

00:26:46.720 get when they are somehow backed into the court. Like this is how I think of sometimes not having

00:26:52.880 kids. It's like someone like asks you three questions and each one is like getting closer

00:26:57.540 and closer to like saying like, so you don't have any children. But okay, here's the question from

00:27:04.780 Jen. I have many child-free humans in my life and I'm aghast at some of the reactions they've

00:27:09.680 gotten. For example, someone told my BFF that their house was just too big for only them and

00:27:15.060 they should have kids. My question is about the rhetorical hoops people, women, femme presenting 1.00

00:27:20.020 usually, have to go through to justify their choices or their current child-free status

00:27:24.700 in ways that I don't as a parent. Why do some folks never connect what they say to child-free

00:27:30.400 people to the same tired patterns why can't some people just mind their own business about others

00:27:35.440 reproductive choices or circumstances this is the question right yeah i mean it's i have another

00:27:42.860 joke in the show where it's like i dress pretty kooky and that it's one for fashion but two it

00:27:49.940 gives people pause because they're like oh she's not a mom she's a she's a tween who's been freaky

00:27:55.260 Friday so I guess I won't ask her about kids it's so exhausting I hate it I hate it yeah I think

00:28:05.380 people ask because they just don't think you know I think it's that same like I live in a world where

00:28:11.220 the the the assumption is you should have kids so if you've got a house with an extra bedroom

00:28:16.620 you got to have a kid in it totally you're like that's that's where my peloton

00:28:21.540 lives at least that's what it is in my house we got rid of the bed like it's a bedroom that could

00:28:27.940 be a bed and we're like nope that's where the palatine lives now i'm sorry and also like our 0.76

00:28:31.680 miscellaneous shit that we don't have to clean up because no one cares uh do you sometimes take 0.93

00:28:38.000 pleasure though now in like people's discomfort because i do it took a while but i know it took 0.97

00:28:44.360 So long. Yeah. And I think, and what I do is I just, I don't follow up with more excuses about

00:28:52.160 why. Totally. Totally. It's incredible. You just say like, because I wanted to,

00:28:56.880 because I like it. I, yeah, I realized it's what I want. This is the way I wanted to live my life,

00:29:02.320 period. Yes. And it really is jarring for people because they do expect it to come with,

00:29:08.320 uh you know a treasure trove of excuses as to why you are validating your choice there is something

00:29:14.620 so confident in just standing your ground and not in a and not in a combative way but simply

00:29:19.860 in a in a sense of ease and comfort yes i think like even well-meaning people if you just are

00:29:27.280 like do you have kids and you're like nope like because i think sometimes the impulse at least for

00:29:31.880 me as like a people please sorry is to be like no we have our dogs or like you know yes just

00:29:37.780 you know like just to come up with different things the other thing uh that this makes me

00:29:43.440 think of is how some people like really go to the thing like no but i like like i spend so much time

00:29:51.480 with other people's kids or i love being an auntie that sort of thing which is me but i want to always

00:29:57.900 like make sure i and figure out ways to not like rhetorically uh apologize in that way because i

00:30:05.320 think it's also okay just to not like kids it's okay fully yeah um I used to do that too I used

00:30:12.020 to be like but I like kids but but and so then I just started practicing saying no and practicing

00:30:18.960 the inflection so I would be like because I didn't want to say no as if it's you know to go down as

00:30:25.660 if it's sad I also didn't yeah or like a hard no I also didn't want to do so yeah so it's just like

00:30:33.340 you say no but with a smile and like an ease i just i i like i think of like just yeah like

00:30:38.440 kind of brush it off just like no i think i say nope i say nope oh yeah that's good casual nope

00:30:44.460 nope just done yeah um you know someone pushed back on like people saying that they don't want

00:30:53.880 to have kids because they don't like kids they said like that's like you know we we just it's

00:30:58.780 not okay to say you don't like a whole swath of the population like we wouldn't say I don't like

00:31:04.760 elderly people sure but I think like that we're not talking about raising elderly people do you 1.00

00:31:11.820 know what I mean like we're talking about like I don't like kids and I also know that it would be 0.96

00:31:15.640 really hard for me to like live with a kid for 18 years and be responsible for them yeah I have a 1.00

00:31:21.300 joke where I'm like I actually would prefer to raise an elderly person just there you can leave 0.96

00:31:26.360 them in a hot car. They don't mind. They like it. It was like much better at games. Yeah, yeah, 0.94

00:31:32.360 yeah. Yeah. I get that because I do think that does sound very antagonistic to be like,

00:31:39.540 I don't like kids, especially if that person has kids. And I also, I do want to come at this with

00:31:45.680 a sense of compassion. And I think, again, if you, as the person who doesn't have kids,

00:31:51.020 exude a sense of calm and ease and comfort with your choice. I think that can blend into

00:31:58.780 or can bleed into other people seeing it as something that is just freeing and fun to choose

00:32:05.840 as opposed to this militant kind of no, I hate kids. But I think there's nothing wrong with,

00:32:13.480 yeah, acknowledging the fact that I don't want this responsibility. This doesn't seem like it

00:32:18.960 would be fun and fulfilling to me. Kids are so difficult. So if you don't, in the same way that

00:32:26.260 it's, I guess not in the same way, but it's okay to not have pets. No one gets mad at you for that

00:32:31.920 or to choose a different job. Some people are like, it's not okay for you to not like dogs.

00:32:36.440 I'm like, it is okay. That's your life. You get to not like dogs. As long as you're not like

00:32:41.020 yelling at my dog from across the street. Like, I hate dogs. Like, how dare you get a dog, right?

00:32:47.680 Like that's the thing, right?

00:32:49.580 Is that respect for others' choices.

00:32:52.420 Okay, next question comes from Leah.

00:32:54.460 I'm 28 years old and have never wanted kids.

00:32:57.800 I've always explained to people that I just want dogs.

00:33:00.520 I really do just want dogs.

00:33:02.780 People used to laugh this off.

00:33:04.540 I'm now at the age where people push back.

00:33:06.960 While it's easier to rebuff people I don't care about,

00:33:09.280 it's way harder to explain my reasoning to my friends who are pregnant or actively trying to conceive.

00:33:14.820 How do I best explain my lifestyle goals to my friends who are making different choices?

00:33:19.380 I want to be supportive of my friends without the pressure to live their same lives.

00:33:24.060 I love this question.

00:33:25.800 I definitely felt this.

00:33:27.060 I definitely felt this.

00:33:28.480 Yeah, I think that for a while I also overcorrected where I was just always asking them so many

00:33:35.700 questions about their pregnancy and like just I feel like overcompensating because I was

00:33:41.760 worried that they thought that I, you know, was like, oh, I don't want kids. I don't like your

00:33:47.500 life. And so therefore, I would be like, oh, tell me everything, you know. And then I found that

00:33:52.780 I was leaving no space for myself in the conversation, you know. It's a delicate dance.

00:33:59.640 And I think it will, it'll just be difficult always. But I think if it's a strong friendship,

00:34:05.280 it will grow and stand the test of time if both of you are coming at it from a place of compassion.

00:34:10.700 But there's not a one size fits all piece of advice for this one.

00:34:15.600 The one thing I would tell Leah is that the like it's almost like trying to like get you to start a new hobby at the same time or like run a marathon with me.

00:34:26.700 And I'm not trying to be dismissive here.

00:34:28.320 Like I think that it feels more fun to be doing parenthood with your best friends.

00:34:33.140 Like, I think that it feels more like we're going to be able to, like, talk about these things that we're experiencing and, like, do all that together.

00:34:40.980 And you can still talk about those things with your friends who aren't pregnant or aren't trying to conceive or don't have kids.

00:34:45.760 But it's a little bit they're just, like, not as invested in the marathon plan.

00:34:52.680 But with that said, once we got past, like, age one, two, no one was trying to make me have kids after that.

00:35:00.100 Yeah, it is. It's true where it's like when they're in the thick of it, which is those early years. Yeah, it's like, it's all they have time to focus on. So I'm like, it makes perfect sense. But yeah, the intensity of the pressure fully decreases once their kids are like five.

00:35:17.780 Yeah. And also, I think it's easier once you're through the thicket to be like, I can see how maybe you like this is a life that you wanted to stay in. At least for my friends that has been like they're like, I see the benefits of your choice. I love my kids. And also I see the benefits of your choice.

00:35:39.100 Totally, which is the best.

00:35:40.620 Yeah, I have most of my friends are in that camp where, you know, I get a lot of like,

00:35:45.860 yeah, you really don't have to have kids.

00:35:47.700 And I know that they love their kids, but it's wonderful.

00:35:51.340 I feel very lucky where the pressure I actually, and maybe it's because I live in New York.

00:35:55.980 So so many of the women friends who I have who did have kids, had them late and very

00:36:01.020 much also have careers.

00:36:03.160 I mostly felt that kind of pressure from family as opposed to friends.

00:36:08.100 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Next question is about some of this, like, how do you figure into other people's lives-ness? This comes from Martha.

00:36:18.320 Why is it that the nuclear family stereotype is such a sticky archetype and people can't

00:36:23.100 conceive of other ways of being?

00:36:24.900 I'm a very proud auntie figure in lots of kids' lives, and I feel like those relationships

00:36:30.200 are the most fulfilling to me.

00:36:31.640 But people often see my childless state as sad or a waste, when to me, I have kids.

00:36:37.220 I just haven't birthed them, and I don't live with them.

00:36:39.800 This is very familiar to me.

00:36:41.420 What's your take on it?

00:36:42.600 Yeah.

00:36:43.040 I mean, and it was the reason it took me so long to decide because I saw the adults in

00:36:50.160 my life have those reactions to these women.

00:36:53.940 I think the only, like, I think we combat this with time, like the, you know, having 0.99

00:36:59.320 podcasts like this, you doing your series, because the more people see that this is a

00:37:05.820 way to live, the more comfortable they are asking questions about it, seeing it as a

00:37:11.700 positive as opposed to a negative. So I think the more exposure we have of these lives and people

00:37:18.080 celebrating their choice, the easier it is going to be to let go of this assumption that is still

00:37:24.100 so deep and ingrained in most people's understandings of a life without kids.

00:37:30.940 Yeah. And just this idea too, that like, you know, a lot of the people that I've heard from about

00:37:37.140 their very happy childless lives are also educators right they're like yes I you know I have so many

00:37:46.000 kids in my life like that and this is a role that is often celebrated without question but somehow

00:37:54.280 like if you don't also have kids yourself like it's somehow less than or something like that

00:37:59.080 you know what I mean it's where I'm like wow a teacher who doesn't have kids that feels incredible

00:38:04.440 because that person, yeah, is just going to have so much more room in their world for

00:38:10.700 reaching out, you know, and going beyond just the classroom and being a mentor.

00:38:15.740 Yeah. And also just being an example. And I think you're totally right that this is like,

00:38:20.820 we are in a generational shift right now. Us, Gen X, like, I think this is the first generation

00:38:28.440 of not just having like one person in your life who stood out, right, but several,

00:38:33.300 Like a multiplicity of ways of being a person without kids.

00:38:38.620 Totally.

00:38:39.200 What a feast of representation.

00:38:41.300 I mean, we are, yeah, like we are that representation for a future generation.

00:38:45.460 And that feels really exciting.

00:38:47.200 Yeah.

00:38:53.040 Support for the Culture Study podcast comes from Remy.

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00:40:25.280 Today's episode is sponsored by Lola Blankets.

00:40:27.720 melody how many lola blankets have you given as gifts uh three uh and i can say this now because

00:40:35.140 we are recording this a few hours before i'm going to hand over the final two so tomorrow

00:40:39.860 the friends listening to this will already have received their blankets and i cannot wait to give

00:40:44.320 it to them describe to me the sort of person that you give a lola blanket to and sort of reason

00:40:50.020 Oh, your Lola blanket recipient loves to be cozy. Somebody who does everything and just deserves

00:40:59.260 to be embraced by the softest blanket they've ever felt when they finally sit down on the couch at

00:41:05.100 night. Yes. And have it be their blanket and theirs alone. And it's for the person who never

00:41:10.780 buys nice things for themselves. Totally. 100%. I am obsessed with my blanket. We talk about these

00:41:18.140 blankets all the time on this podcast. It's such a joy to be like, this is my blanket. This is not

00:41:23.560 your blanket. Every single night in the past couple of weeks, I've been laying down on the couch,

00:41:27.940 pulling my Lola blanket up to my neck and watching the Olympics. And it's just the comfort and the

00:41:34.180 relaxation that flows through my nervous system when I'm under my Lola blanket unmatched.

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00:41:46.180 your own room and just like having blankets all around you all the time. That's the Lola experience.

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00:42:36.660 you. Let's segue on to this next question because it actually grapples with one of my favorite

00:42:48.000 parts of not having kids, which is when kids ask you questions about not having kids. This

00:42:53.160 comes from Elizabeth. I'd love to hear folks' thoughts or advice on how to talk to kids about

00:42:57.140 being an adult that doesn't have kids. I grew up with several child-free adults in my life,

00:43:01.500 and now that I'm a child-free adult myself, I appreciate their example, but I never asked

00:43:05.460 them about it. My friend's kids are getting to the ages where they start to ask questions like

00:43:09.520 this, and I don't have a great answer for them. It feels weird to say, oh, we didn't want any kids

00:43:14.220 to a kid's face. For what it's worth, I usually say something like, no, but we have a dog. Do you

00:43:19.280 have any pets? But I'd prefer not to deflect, especially because I don't want to give the

00:43:23.460 impression that it's anything other than a valid choice that my partner and I are happy with.

00:43:27.400 All right. So I have my responses, but I want to hear yours first.

00:43:30.520 yeah i mean this is a tricky one because you definitely don't want the kid to feel bad

00:43:37.620 yeah yeah um honestly i think the dog one is great the only issue is like it does then

00:43:41.940 make it seem like well i have to compensate with something i think a great answer is the closest

00:43:49.080 to truth without being you know simplifying it for you know kid logic which is you know i thought

00:43:55.360 about it and we you know we decided we wanted we wanted to live this way I don't know it's yeah

00:44:01.680 it's it's immediately I'm answering it and I'm like wait that doesn't sound good that's word

00:44:05.400 salad I think I'm just like I'm more of a troll with kids sometimes um like just in a funny way

00:44:11.080 so I'll be like I don't know I just didn't want to and they're like okay and then like also I'm

00:44:17.080 not married because I didn't want to and they're like and that to them like sometimes and this is

00:44:22.100 not i think like anyone's fault but just there's this assumption that like oh if two people live

00:44:27.320 together they are married i used to think that if my next door neighbor and i had our swings aligned

00:44:34.320 in the same way right that that also meant that we were married so kids believe all sorts of things

00:44:39.920 but i like just kind of bursting that bubble in a way that's like not a huge deal just be like yeah

00:44:46.300 you don't have to like no one says that's key yeah in the like I think a lot of times as a kid

00:44:54.260 you assume there are things you have to do yeah and marriage feels like a thing you have to do

00:44:59.940 having kids feels like a thing you have to do but simply saying I didn't want to so I didn't do it

00:45:04.780 it's incredible yeah I also say and now I get to hang out more with you oh that's really sweet

00:45:10.980 which is it like that wouldn't work so much for someone that you don't know but like for my

00:45:14.820 friends kids that I do actually like we have this conversation often when we have been hanging out

00:45:19.420 for a while like that's the great way to be like and now I have more time for you which is something

00:45:25.300 that I just like I had adults in my life some who had kids and some who did not who were really

00:45:31.320 really important to me and it was really important in hindsight to have adults who were not my

00:45:36.320 parents who like just that I knew really well and that I knew I could depend on and who just like

00:45:44.540 you know wore different clothes and like came from different places and had different educational

00:45:51.240 backgrounds and all those sorts of things yeah there was a woman who was a child-free woman who

00:45:55.800 was in a mentor to me um from like high school on and I am so grateful that she was in my life

00:46:03.420 because not only was it fun to see somebody who was child-free but also there was just a

00:46:10.600 I think when you have an adult in your life who isn't a parent, there's there's just such a level of ease to that relationship because there's so there's less pressure, you know, where that adult can just see you for who you are without all of these other concerns about you are a reflection of me.

00:46:26.960 And what does this say about our family?

00:46:29.160 Yeah, there's it's so vital.

00:46:31.180 I mean, it takes a village, right, is what everybody says.

00:46:33.240 And so much of that village should be child free people.

00:46:36.260 I'll also say because we get this question a lot like how do I become that person in someone else's

00:46:41.080 life and there are there are ways that you can become that person through organizations like

00:46:46.080 big brother big sister is still a huge deal and really important to lots and lots of kids and like

00:46:51.680 there are writing mentorship programs like there's just there are so many different ways that like if

00:46:57.260 you do not have the natural apparatus of like friends who have kids in your life like you can

00:47:02.820 still do that a thousand percent even if there are like hobbies that you have and inevitably

00:47:08.740 there is some like most likely a kid version so i remember there was like a storytelling workshop i

00:47:14.960 taught specifically in high schools you know because i already was really into storytelling

00:47:19.360 yeah and i thought okay how do i do that but then also give back in some way so yeah if you have a

00:47:24.640 passion inevitably there'll be some youth oriented organization that fosters a connection that way

00:47:30.720 I and like, if you are into quilting, like maybe your local quilters guild has like something for kids that you're like, I could volunteer at that and stuff. It's kind of like, when you're trying to make friends, like as an adult, like, yes, you can't you have to put the effort out there in order for it to happen. But at the same time, it's also kind of a long game. And like, you're not gonna have a kid who's like hugging your leg and being like, you're my best friend on the first day or something.

00:48:00.640 you might you actually might but sometimes it might take a while for like the kid to for any

00:48:06.600 kid to warm up to you or for you to feel comfortable or like everything's I don't know

00:48:11.180 it feels just over determined but like it's just it's worth it if this is something that you feel

00:48:17.260 like you want in your life and I again I want to underline that because not everyone is finding

00:48:21.740 their fulfillment through being around other kids they might find it through like helping other

00:48:27.360 adults in other ways right or like you know there's just so many ways you can find this

00:48:32.280 totally and i it's like yeah we're helping it just a totally different population age wise

00:48:38.100 especially because i do think there is a lot of richness that comes from hearing from people who

00:48:44.260 are in a different part of their lives but yeah it doesn't mean it has to be kids yeah i also i

00:48:50.040 think it's fun to play with kids like do you ever get like my friends who are parents don't really

00:48:55.420 like quote unquote playing because they have to do it so much right yeah like here I come

00:49:01.880 they'll like you know well-rested adult who doesn't have to play all the time and I'm like

00:49:07.980 let's be weird like totally I can't we have um we have friends who have kids who are like two

00:49:15.860 right or maybe about to be three and I'm just waiting until they're like five and six and we

00:49:21.320 can really like put on wigs i have so many just props and costumes from my time in doing sketch

00:49:28.360 comedy theater in new york i cannot wait to write little plays with them yep yeah and exactly i'm

00:49:34.240 like i'm well rested i have the energy for this and also i can leave in a few hours i can leave

00:49:38.860 i gotta leave and then i get to be in my quiet house it's incredible and not talk to anyone just

00:49:47.000 like recover it's so good uh melody i feel like i want to ask you a little bit about um what do

00:49:53.680 you do when kids ask you if you have kids i don't actually i was thinking about this i don't think

00:49:58.940 i've ever had a kid ask me oh yeah maybe you just got no kids energy melody yeah maybe i just exude

00:50:08.500 impatience um it was always awkward though like when i was still doing church things

00:50:15.500 and adults would ask me do you have kids and I would try to just be like no but there was they're

00:50:21.960 always kind of like oh like it's just presumed that it's like sad and that I don't actually

00:50:27.780 want it to be that way right but I also still feel like I'm like 12 years old why do people

00:50:33.940 want me to have children they're just asking like a 17 year old like sorry I'm not a teen mom

00:50:40.720 at age 36 totally no i think that that's really true and we actually just um on the newsletter

00:50:48.580 we published an interview with the pastor about not having kids because like i think that that's

00:50:53.320 like there are certain types of professions and we were kind of talking about this with like

00:50:58.280 teachers where there's this like understanding that because you do work with kids or whatever

00:51:04.620 that like you should also have kids in your life but also men don't get that we haven't even talked

00:51:11.500 about how men don't gas i know has your natasha has your husband does he get asked these questions

00:51:16.460 how does he deal with this no he doesn't and it was because we were both for a long time

00:51:21.300 ambivalent and then once we decided he was off to the races pumped where i was like oh

00:51:29.580 did not know that we were so excited to not have kids um and so he he my husband's so funny and

00:51:38.960 also just very much like enjoys contrarian conversations in a way that i you know like no

00:51:44.660 i just want everyone to be comfortable where he just does not care so yeah whenever he's like oh

00:51:50.160 god i hate them you know he'll just say something comedic which is like god i don't want to be sick

00:51:54.520 every day for the rest of my life yeah yeah no and i do think too that like there's more space

00:52:00.640 for that contrarianness do you think men have more space for ambivalence just generally like

00:52:06.340 they don't have to know exactly what they want you know no i would say it's but it's they just

00:52:11.660 have a different pressure i was reading this youngian i'm like really until because i have

00:52:16.580 the time i'm really into like youngian you know therapy i've just been reading a bunch of books

00:52:21.720 about it because I find it fascinating. And this one therapist was saying how it is frustrating

00:52:29.420 because, and obviously I'm making generalizations, but for women in our society, our roles are much 0.78

00:52:36.060 more prescribed. We are the support system. It's all of these pressures where we have to kind of 1.00

00:52:42.820 support the men in our lives and get to make less choices. But we are allowed to have an emotional

00:52:50.140 network of friends like it is normal for us to have friends who we talk to about our inner lives

00:52:56.920 our feelings it's totally we are allowed and in fact encouraged to process our worlds where men

00:53:04.060 the pressure instead is you have to be a provider and you have to achieve and a lot of times it's

00:53:09.660 like these career successes um so they just have so little room for the freedom to be like here's

00:53:18.600 how i feel about this i'm what do you think like let's talk about emotions and emotional responses

00:53:24.440 so i think they have pressures but they're just different and i mean i don't want their pressures

00:53:30.080 either i know i feel like the stakes are so much lower for men too like they're not the ones who

00:53:35.240 are going to die in childbirth they can change their mind until they're dead if they want to

00:53:43.300 have a kid or not and a lot of times they could even just peace out even if they decide they want

00:53:48.800 a kid they're just like actually i don't want to and then they leave so it's it's like um it's just

00:53:54.380 not as permanent of a choice for their body isn't colonized for several years um yeah you know and

00:54:02.160 then permanently changed after yeah i used to even this was even before i just realized i was

00:54:07.860 ambivalent about having kids my previous stand-up album i had a joke about how i'm like well i want

00:54:12.500 to be the dad i like that's what i want what i want is to be the dad yeah because yeah you get

00:54:18.980 there's just so much more freedom you get to you get to leave you get to not be physically tied

00:54:24.360 you know to this creature that needs every every part of you at every moment this beautiful baby

00:54:30.340 who needs part of you at every moment and this is too i mean i think we're we're trying to be

00:54:36.240 really careful about like language here and and because this is a this isn't an episode about

00:54:41.640 language but i even feel like you know you say something like creature and someone's like oh

00:54:46.840 well that person hates kids right or if i say like you know colonize it's like oh well like that

00:54:52.480 that really like you're you're using aggressive language to talk about how how this works and

00:54:58.340 part of it is this beautiful angel i know right well and then i take when someone talks about like

00:55:04.040 the beautiful gift of motherhood like that to me is aggressive language do you know what i mean

00:55:10.200 Yeah. Yeah. It's so fraught. Because it's like, this really is such a big decision for everybody that, I mean, it points to all the questions we talked about where I think, again, if we were taught to be comfortable in making our own choices and it was okay to live differently than other people, a lot of this would go away.

00:55:32.340 this is a great place for us to end. Natasha, this has been such a delight. Everything that I hope

00:55:39.700 for. If people want to find more of you on the internet, where can they find you?

00:55:44.140 So if you want to find me, the best place is Instagram. I post about all the shows I'm doing

00:55:49.280 all over the city at Natasha Veinblot. And I am doing Childless Freak again in New York City. So

00:55:56.860 please please come it's at joe's pub on tuesday april 28th at 9 30 p.m fantastic i hope we can

00:56:04.500 have you on again because this is great i loved it thank you so much it was so fun

00:56:09.380 thanks for listening to the culture study podcast today paid subscribers got a bonus segment

00:56:16.440 where melody and i talked about how to actually become a cool adult in your friends kids lives

00:56:21.880 lots of advice there so if you want to get that bonus content join the crew of paid subscribers

00:56:26.860 at patreon.com slash culture study paid subscribers get ad-free episodes private discussion threads

00:56:33.320 and bonus content and every single episode plus whole bonus episodes every now and then next week

00:56:40.420 we're going to have one all about the new weather and heights movie it's going to be me melody and

00:56:45.300 the great margaret willison talking all about it so you don't want to miss that one again it's

00:56:49.980 patreon.com slash culture study to sign up and there are four ways to support the show that don't cost

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00:57:27.940 study podcast is produced by me ann helen peterson and melody raul our music is by poddington bear

00:57:33.160 you can find me on instagram at ann helen peterson melody at melodious 47 and the show at culture

00:57:39.340 City Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - February 18, 2026

A Very Funny Episode About Being a ＂Childless Freak＂

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