Culture Study Podcast - Fake, Real, Imagined, & Projected CELEBRITY FEUDS!!!

00:00:00.000 this is the culture study podcast and i'm ann helen peterson and i'm joel anderson

00:00:29.580 I am a co-host of the Press Box podcast at The Ringer and a staff writer for The Ringer.

00:00:36.180 I said The Ringer already, so there we go.

00:00:38.780 I am so happy to have a pro here today, just a podcast pro, someone whose work I've admired

00:00:45.060 for so long, and also someone who knows a lot about celebrity feuds for various reasons

00:00:51.900 that we'll get into over the course of this podcast.

00:00:54.380 But the first thing that we're going to talk about, this is our peg for this podcast, is

00:00:59.200 a little bit about a feud that's going to be very front and center in the next week so let's get to

00:01:04.960 our first listener question because it will set up this whole episode it's from robin my question is

00:01:09.900 about the drake kendrick lamar celebrity feud i would love to know more about how celebrities

00:01:15.060 profit from their feuds making albums even winning awards this happened with kanye and taylor swift

00:01:21.400 as well she continues to reference kanye and kim kardashian in songs as recently as her latest

00:01:26.780 album i would also love to know more about how the public and broader culture navigate

00:01:31.800 when there are very serious accusations that come out of things that start as feuds

00:01:36.660 like kendrick referencing allegations of drake's pattern of predation with minors in not like us

00:01:42.600 okay so we open the show with a little bit of kendrick lamar's track not like us

00:01:48.200 which was the fourth i think uh diss track he put out about drake uh during a really intense

00:01:55.660 couple of weeks of back and forth which like i am a celebrity gossip aficionado and like it took

00:02:01.680 everything to like keep up with what was happening so ahead of kendrick's super bowl halftime

00:02:07.260 performance which like talk about a victory lap um can you start us like can you get for listeners

00:02:12.580 who maybe weren't as um obsessed with it as i was can you start us off with some broad strokes of

00:02:18.580 the feud well i mean i guess it goes back to the very early part of their careers um you know they

00:02:23.580 came around I guess 2009 seems like a good starting point but it's like the very early

00:02:28.460 part of their careers Drake was still at that point the bigger star and they kind of circled

00:02:33.740 each other because that's what you do in hip-hop you know you see the guys that's that's going to

00:02:37.600 be the guy or maybe you might be the guy and you sort of circle each other and they don't

00:02:41.720 necessarily run in the same crew or anything you know Kendrick has his his friends and his

00:02:46.560 rap cohort TDE from you know South Central and his parts of LA and Drake has his folks from

00:02:53.080 toronto and all over so they did collaborate though on kendrick's um i guess it would be his

00:02:58.300 debut release poetic justice right right and that was that was that was kendrick's first number one

00:03:04.200 song and so as a result there's always just sort of been this like rivalry which drake can says

00:03:09.960 hey look you were not really a star until i made you a star and kendrick and kendrick's point of

00:03:16.180 contention is that i was always going to be a star also i'm authentically of this culture and so

00:03:21.100 they've been circling each other and dropping little you know hints and lines and rap songs

00:03:26.300 over the over the last decade or so it's always sort of been building to this i don't think

00:03:30.440 anybody thought that it would get to a moment to where drake would be suing uh his record label

00:03:35.440 but that's where we are today so it just it escalated last year around may of 2024 when

00:03:41.860 they all released um you know a series of diss tracks which you said are just kind of

00:03:46.860 unprecedented in in hip-hop history i would say yeah yeah and i think the the fascinating thing

00:03:52.880 for me about all of it is just like sometimes you're like oh they keep like competing with

00:03:58.500 each other and like who's the winner but there was just such a clear victor do you know what i

00:04:03.480 mean like and that seemed that seemed unprecedented in a way to me well i mean it's just i can't

00:04:11.120 recall um another rap beef that ended with one of the guys going on to performing halftime of the

00:04:18.140 super bowl you know so um so you're right like there's never quite been a victory like that

00:04:26.700 there have been other victories and drake has lost beefs before people can go back a few years

00:04:31.380 ago i guess it was 2018 2019 when he got into a beef with the rapper pusha t and pusha t

00:04:38.520 released a diss track uh the story of adi don which revealed to people that did not know that

00:04:44.780 drake had a child at that point drake had right and for his fans secret child yeah right his son

00:04:51.680 right yeah and the cover the cover of the diss track was it was a from a photo shoot that drake

00:04:57.860 had taken when he was an actor very much much younger in his career he's in blackface and that

00:05:02.560 was the cover of that thing and so drake has been the decisive loser in a beef before but it was one

00:05:09.340 thing when it's pusha t who was a very good very credible long-time rapper it's another when the

00:05:14.620 guy the guy that's coming after you is you know maybe your competition for number one and he

00:05:19.740 eviscerates you in the way that kendrick did right right and like kendrick like he has a pulitzer

00:05:24.840 am I remembering this he has a Pulitzer yeah he has a Pulitzer yeah and like right with such

00:05:31.420 deafness that for all of Drake's musical qualities I just don't think he can rival but Drake also

00:05:37.640 strikes me as the guy who like keeps on trying to start the fight because there is like a little

00:05:42.440 bit of like and again this is just analysis of star image like there is this feeling of like

00:05:47.300 trying to legitimize himself always yeah no I think there's definitely that and that's kind of

00:05:52.500 that's what how i think kendrick really was able to unnerve drake it wasn't that like i know that

00:05:58.380 you're cool i know that you make a lot of money i know that you have slept with a lot of my friends

00:06:02.560 girls and maybe if you went after my wife you might have a shot at it but the thing about me

00:06:08.180 which is i'm i'm speaking as kendrick to drake is that i am authentically of this culture like i'm

00:06:13.500 not putting on i'm not putting on an accent um you know i i'm from where i say i'm from i'm from

00:06:19.460 right out here in Compton you know you're from Toronto which is it has its own unique established

00:06:25.420 hip-hop culture and you're not even really a part of that you know like those guys up there don't

00:06:30.000 really mess with you and so that really poked at something that has always sort of dogged Drake

00:06:34.040 in addition to accusations that he does not write his own raps and so like that is the sort of thing

00:06:38.960 that really it seemed that it got really personal for Drake in a way that not many other beefs

00:06:44.580 have gotten for him or for anybody else for that matter yeah the point you made that I hadn't

00:06:48.580 thought a lot about is that it always is these like people of the same cohort so you don't have

00:06:54.180 as many feuds that are necessarily amongst people from like several decades apart from one another

00:07:00.820 we think about like biggie and tupac vying for the same sort of cultural position at the same

00:07:06.140 sort of time so you did a whole season of slow burn which i strongly strongly recommend anyone

00:07:11.680 listening but how would you compare that feud with this or even like 50 and Diddy which has

00:07:19.400 I think come to the fore again recently in light of all of the accusations levied against Diddy

00:07:24.340 it'll be easier for me to to do it for the Tupac and Biggie but I'll see if I can circle back and

00:07:29.020 get to the Diddy 50 piece of it um one of the major differences between the Biggie and Pac beef

00:07:34.840 as opposed to the Kendrick and Drake beef

00:07:36.840 is how raw and new it was

00:07:41.220 when Biggie and Tupac did it, right?

00:07:43.180 Like beefing has always been a part of hip hop culture.

00:07:46.360 It's a part of American culture, right?

00:07:47.880 Like, I don't like you.

00:07:48.880 I don't like you.

00:07:49.760 All right, what are we going to do about it?

00:07:50.780 You know, that is all of us in a nutshell.

00:07:54.600 But in hip hop, like competition is a big part of it.

00:07:58.040 And with Tupac and Biggie,

00:08:00.420 it was very, very personal.

00:08:02.200 Like they were really good friends once upon a time,

00:08:04.320 Right. And if people remember one of the central most inflammatory allegations in the Biggie Tupac beef was that Tupac had slept with Biggie's wife, Faith Evans. Right. And so it was a very personal, very heated, you know, I mean, again, this it feels like I'm just adding on drama to make this sound even crazier.

00:08:24.560 but don't forget Tupac got shot right this is the first time yeah and blamed Biggie and his

00:08:31.560 associates including Diddy for setting him up and getting him shot so there was a lot of things

00:08:37.080 that happened that made this a very organic very real very young beef it's the kind of thing that

00:08:42.180 happens when you're 24 25 years old where like something happens and it kind of gets out of

00:08:47.360 control and you can't quite get it back yeah um Drake and Kendrick is not that they're both almost

00:08:52.980 40 years old they're very experienced they are very experienced at the record industry

00:08:58.340 a lot of this required the level of planning and um anticipation and professionalism that

00:09:06.480 is just totally different from what was going on with Biggie and Pac like these are two grown men

00:09:11.220 who are industries in their own right they feed a lot of people with their music and their work

00:09:16.000 like so nothing this did not happen by accident this did not happen because they're homeboys

00:09:20.820 gone wrong this happened because they're both vying for the same thing and they kind of don't

00:09:25.760 like each other yeah yeah and it's not as tragic either right like that's the thing like that the

00:09:31.240 horrible the contrast right it's like that feud ended with both people dead and that's not i don't

00:09:38.120 think that's going to be the i would what i would say is that not long after the not like us song

00:09:44.240 dropped and this is an allegation that drake uh puts in his lawsuit against his record label

00:09:49.120 somebody shot at his house in toronto now people have kind of forgotten that buried that a little

00:09:54.120 bit right um and but they don't know if the source of that was the kendrick beef or another

00:09:59.740 beef he was having with local rappers in toronto but so yes to your point nothing bad has happened

00:10:06.320 yet nobody has gotten hurt everybody seems to have come through this well i you know i should say

00:10:10.980 somebody got shot at drake's house a bodyguard and you know so somebody did actually get injured

00:10:16.240 which is often what happens with with these beats but nobody has died it's a chance for people to

00:10:21.480 sort of move on and yeah the thing about the biggie and tupac thing i'm sure we'll come back to this

00:10:25.860 later and talk about it because they were so young um i think they were denied an opportunity to

00:10:32.120 reconcile and i think that would have happened as they had gotten older um so that's kind that's the

00:10:36.900 real tragedy of biggie and pock they never got old enough to see the error of their ways yeah

00:10:41.180 there's a lot of distance with these how old were they remind me we'll see so

00:10:46.000 Pac was 25 when he died

00:10:47.820 Biggie was 24

00:10:49.120 Yeah I mean didn't see 0.90

00:10:51.060 They were babies

00:10:52.460 It happened when I was in

00:10:56.140 9th grade I think 8th grade or 9th grade

00:10:58.360 And like to me at that time

00:11:00.120 I was just like they're adults

00:11:01.180 They did they seemed so grown

00:11:03.420 But that is so young

00:11:06.560 In hindsight

00:11:07.180 They were such babies

00:11:08.560 I mean both of them

00:11:11.940 Came from nothing to kind of something

00:11:14.240 very rarely like Tupac had just graduated from high school bouncing from place to place was

00:11:19.540 basically living below the poverty line with his mom you know as recently as five six years before

00:11:24.900 the time he got shot like he was paying his mom's bills this this was we are not talking about a

00:11:29.720 wealthy guy who was putting a lot at risk and same for Biggie Biggie kind of came from a different

00:11:34.540 place but a very similar set of circumstances so yeah they were just they were I mean god man the

00:11:40.440 stuff that you let go at 46 as opposed to 24 you know what i mean so i wish they'd had opportunity

00:11:46.020 to get there yeah robin asked us like how celebrities profit from these feuds and i think

00:11:52.080 we'll get into this more too when we talk about some of the other feuds in question but like

00:11:55.940 how much do you see this you referenced this like somewhat obliquely earlier how much do you see

00:12:01.000 this as like a very savvy commercialization like i don't think that it's like pre-planned or

00:12:07.560 anything like that but they think they also understand like oh well this is a way to make

00:12:11.220 people pay attention to me too oh yeah i mean you know one of the side you know the unfortunate

00:12:16.460 realities of the biggie and pop beef is that it did like drive record sales for my record labels

00:12:21.820 right yeah it made them into much bigger celebrities than they might have otherwise been

00:12:25.800 and so people peep that out early and really this has been going on a long time but when

00:12:29.980 nas and jay-z beefed in 2001 it it it drove a lot of record sales for them like even if you go back

00:12:36.560 to last year Megan Thee Stallion and Nicki Minaj have been engaged in a beef that has been going

00:12:42.860 on for years now at this point and they released a couple of diss tracks last year and I mean you

00:12:48.080 see this tremendous bump and not only that Spotify listens but there's another way to judge this

00:12:52.900 stuff now YouTube views yeah so there's a whole lot of ways to sort of judge what's going on so

00:12:57.680 this stuff has been proven to it tends to help people very rarely does it hurt well and I think

00:13:03.960 too like the the video for not like us like it itself is like an aesthetic diss like all the

00:13:10.480 ways that it functions and so that even generates like so many more youtube but like youtube hits

00:13:17.020 and all that sort of thing it's all very savvy in that capacity you know the funny thing about

00:13:21.200 the end is that yeah like after the song got dropped everybody knew a video was coming for

00:13:25.520 the song which is sort of that's not often how rap beefs work like we didn't get a video for

00:13:30.100 the story of Adidine you know what I mean um and so it was like oh like Kendrick is operating on a

00:13:35.800 whole nother level of professionalism in this and which is true to who that dude is like this is I

00:13:41.480 mean this is him being the artiste uh in the in this beef and so yeah that that the the video

00:13:47.500 really took it over the top and if you go look at the views even for the songs that he didn't

00:13:51.280 release on the streaming services they're way up in the millions so there's a lot of ways to

00:13:55.620 monetize this stuff for sure have you seen like the whole genre of tiktok reaction video where

00:14:00.820 people like play the song for people who haven't heard it yet and you're just waiting for like

00:14:06.780 like whatever point like really gets through to someone like oh my god like even that itself as

00:14:13.640 a sub industry is really fascinating to me oh yeah i mean that is the thing and i used to think this

00:14:18.960 was bad just as a kid like i i was trying to think back like man it would really suck to be a kid now

00:14:24.300 if you lost a fight at school because people because you'll have to live it every day and

00:14:29.140 there's all kind of people like doing and so that's what drake is living through man he lost

00:14:32.560 a fight at school and there's all these reaction videos you have to basically shut off the internet

00:14:39.200 to avoid the response and that's what's so damning about it because it's like man how do you get away 0.80

00:14:45.060 from that if you're drake yeah you can understand why you would file a lawsuit to make it stop if

00:14:49.480 you thought that would help drake's like so many of us right i was like i'm gonna delete my instagram

00:14:53.520 I'm going to take a break. I'm going to do a cleanse, a social media cleanse. It's like, yeah,

00:15:00.280 okay. You probably should. Our next question comes from Emily and it gets to like the point

00:15:06.440 of all of this. So here we go. Why do so many rappers, male and female, have deep and apparently

00:15:13.560 vitriolic beef with each other? I'm so confused on what these extensive and often long lasting

00:15:19.000 feuds are supposed to be about. Is it mainly a publicity stunt or are there like genuine reasons

00:15:25.080 for this? The same applies to pop stars like Katy Perry and Taylor Swift. Just why?

00:15:31.960 Okay. So if we can get to some of like the philosophical why of this, it might be interesting.

00:15:37.640 What interests you about celebrity feuds just generally?

00:15:41.780 um it's a chance often for them to step from behind the artifice or the the public facade

00:15:49.680 right it's hard to be somebody else when you're in a fight you got to kind of tap into who you

00:15:55.980 are and what you're about if you're going to fight so if you're going to open have you ever

00:15:59.740 i don't maybe this is a little you know this is maybe sociopathic behavior i would never fight

00:16:05.320 somebody if i didn't have some machines like i got to make sure that everything all my defenses

00:16:09.760 have got to be up to par here like this is the way this person might attack me whether they may say

00:16:14.140 something to me about this they may be bigger than me and use their strength whatever like you're

00:16:19.060 you're sort of preparing you're arming yourself to defend yourself and i think that that's the

00:16:24.000 thing that's sort of interesting to me and like a celebrity you really are put you're exposing

00:16:28.620 yourself you're putting yourself out there for judgment if you lose this fight and your opponent

00:16:33.840 makes some really good points you might have to live with it forever right right you know and it

00:16:37.900 like shows us uh kind of points of vulnerability or even like instability in a star image right

00:16:43.420 like i think with and we'll talk about this more with taylor swift like even someone who seems like

00:16:50.080 their image is so incredibly polished right or like oh they're in the right for whatever reason

00:16:55.580 like it's still it destabilizes the image and sometimes a star can like really re-stabilize

00:17:01.700 it through other songs through other communication like whatever but oftentimes it's a vulnerable

00:17:08.060 point yeah that they might not otherwise have well can i take because like i don't i don't

00:17:13.260 pretend to have a tremendous backlog of knowledge about a lot of pop culture feeds but i'll never

00:17:19.840 forget this is going to sound like this is what a crazy reference when paris hilton called lindsey

00:17:25.200 lohan fire crotch and i was like what a what a diss like i was it stuck with me and you knew

00:17:32.460 that there was something there's something behind that story that is insane well and like that

00:17:37.820 moment so that was during the peak what i think of as like the peak of uh almost like a free-for-all

00:17:44.320 in celebrity gossip in the mid-2000s when the power of celebrity image was really in transition

00:17:50.240 because you had all of the gossip blogs and paparazzi resting control of what a celebrity

00:17:56.420 meant away from the established media outlets so like i like if i'm remembering correctly i think

00:18:03.380 paris said that to like a tmz videographer i could be wrong but it's something similar to that if it's

00:18:10.060 not that and that itself right like because who else would she say that to like she wouldn't say

00:18:15.580 it in an interview she wouldn't say it on entertainment tonight but like kind of wasted

00:18:20.420 out at the club on a saturday night and a videographer comes up to you and like says like

00:18:25.060 what's going on with you and lindsey and that's what she says right like but also paris was always

00:18:31.900 operating from this incredible point of invulnerability because she didn't need the

00:18:35.980 celebrity that's right yeah yeah yeah i mean you're right it was just it was very much the

00:18:40.760 most popular girl in school who's got everything and she's like this girl has got a problem and i

00:18:45.760 can say something to undermine her and destabilize her right yeah and like i don't care if people

00:18:50.900 make fun of me i am purposely kind of lampooning my own image with the like that's hot like all 0.92

00:18:56.340 of that stuff because i have all of this money and who gives a shit right right right yes i mean 0.78

00:19:01.760 i don't know how i don't has paris hilton never had any other beats did anybody ever was so so 0.63

00:19:08.280 before we recorded this melody unearthed this article in cosmo that's like find the beef from

00:19:15.180 the year you were born and some of them are so ridiculous like it's trying to say that 1981 which

00:19:20.680 is when i was born was the year of the beef between jane fonda and henry fonda her dad

00:19:25.960 when really that was like a very long-standing beef and in 1981 they released a movie together

00:19:32.420 on golden pond that like actually was anything they're like reconciliation but that's a long way

00:19:39.380 of saying that they listed a beef between paris and nicole richie which i didn't know about i know

00:19:45.700 right i had no idea i thought they were homegirls man that makes me sad but a lot of this is them

00:19:51.460 grasping for like oh these people didn't like each other right right right it didn't really 0.98

00:19:57.920 explode into a back and forth or anything it was just for a brief moment we don't fuck with each 0.90

00:20:02.680 other when i think about old hollywood like sometimes these feuds were engineered very

00:20:07.080 much by the studio just to generate interest like as someone who had a super boring star image like

00:20:13.840 there was nothing interesting about them except for they were handsome or good looking if you

00:20:18.740 create a feud like oh well their rival is this person then somehow that adds a little bit of

00:20:25.780 gravitas to their image and i think that you get that a little bit sometimes with like

00:20:31.120 i don't know like some of the contemporary tiktok stars that we're not young enough to know about

00:20:35.680 right oh for sure for sure for sure absolutely yeah because they haven't they don't have i mean

00:20:41.020 i shouldn't you know i don't know all these people but they don't they don't they don't

00:20:44.680 have a wikipedia entry that is that compelling and so they've got to kind of create something

00:20:49.540 right you know they don't have a list of accomplishments or like a yeah their bio is

00:20:53.200 very thin yeah or and even i think of like one of the beefs that was listed in this cosmo article

00:20:59.000 was um lauren conrad and like heidi and spencer from the hills do you remember this at all

00:21:03.880 i remember them i remember them as people i don't remember them beefing each other so really what it

00:21:10.080 was is that spencer decided oh you gave me the villain edit in this show well then i'm going to

00:21:16.000 be the villain right like leaning into that understanding and understanding that like oh

00:21:22.280 i'm like i'm a reality star how do i extend that is by amplifying this tension or this conflict

00:21:29.060 that may or may not exist do you know you know what i have my theory about who how people learn

00:21:34.480 how to do this and i'm sure that i'm you know i'm going to be wrong but i thought that people doing

00:21:39.680 like villain turns on the real world to the road rules pipeline yeah they're like oh you can really

00:21:44.420 you can really extend your career if you do it right you know like just being out in public and

00:21:48.920 then maybe you might get into wrestling or something so yeah so it seemed like if he if

00:21:54.260 he followed that model it probably made sense at the time yeah no and i think this is true i've

00:21:59.880 listened to a lot of stuff on like how reality culture has changed and how like now you have

00:22:04.740 this prop of reality contestants who have been raised watching reality television so like

00:22:11.040 survivor for example is incredibly different because everyone like the way that they understand

00:22:16.700 survivor is by being schooled in survivor yeah man that's a really yeah that's got to be so or

00:22:23.020 the real world right like when we first started watching the real world when it first came out

00:22:26.520 like no one knew how to behave on reality television no i mean again it's just it kind

00:22:31.320 of how like kevin powell became a celebrity from like yeah i mean i remember him vividly just

00:22:35.800 yelling outside at julie you know that was his that was sort of his character or actually it was

00:22:41.080 the next season wasn't it wasn't it puck who's kind of like the first person that intentionally

00:22:45.540 antagonize people right yeah yeah and then do you remember real world seattle it had irene of course

00:22:51.300 yes steven and steven and iris is that her name yes steven and iris yeah oh yeah and like just

00:22:58.280 like how you learned like oh this if you want to if you want to be remembered on one of these shows

00:23:04.200 like you have to essentially take on this almost melodramatic role of a villain or the person that

00:23:09.480 is aggressed against and so i think part of this too is like people crave that sort of tension and

00:23:15.040 it's a lot easier like it's a lot more legible if you're like well they're in a fight and this is

00:23:19.800 my side do you know what i mean right right right absolutely absolutely which is like i should say

00:23:25.220 because i need i should clarify this is very different for what happens in hip-hop yeah okay

00:23:29.360 okay so what do you think how is it different well i just think it's usually the stuff is very

00:23:33.800 organic it's very personal in like a very weird way people may not know that the naz jay-z beef

00:23:40.400 goes back to Nas just missing a recording session with Jay-Z.

00:23:45.540 Okay, you know?

00:23:47.360 Yeah.

00:23:47.980 And it was just like, oh, you disrespected me

00:23:49.900 by not showing up to my song?

00:23:51.620 And then it kind of builds, right?

00:23:53.200 Or, I mean, and this is not a small ordeal,

00:23:56.660 but it's like, hey, Ja Rule is accusing 50 Cent

00:24:00.900 or one of his homeboys,

00:24:02.240 hey, which one of y'all robbed me from my chain?

00:24:04.620 Right.

00:24:04.820 You know?

00:24:05.420 Right.

00:24:05.860 And like, this is stuff that is actually happening

00:24:07.480 out there in the streets or whatever,

00:24:08.920 or these private misunderstandings that they have

00:24:11.880 or these rivalries, and then they explode in the public.

00:24:15.100 But very rarely, unless they're very young

00:24:18.200 and very bad rappers, a lot of this stuff

00:24:20.720 is actually the stuff of personal conflict

00:24:23.720 that just kind of gets blown up through lyrics and stuff.

00:24:27.420 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:27.900 So it's like the personal conflict made into art.

00:24:31.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:32.220 Well, it's like, well, if we're going to do this,

00:24:34.660 there's a way that not only can we get

00:24:36.700 some third-party mediators into this thing right the fans they can judge but also it's it can it

00:24:43.680 can be an escalation it could be a provocation right um but it's always a way to sort of keep

00:24:50.260 the things going in the meantime till you can figure out your next angle how much of it is about

00:24:54.580 like moral righteousness and that sort of thing i was reading a very long reddit thread about like

00:24:59.240 why 50 always hated diddy like always whereas everyone else seemed to like fall under his spell

00:25:06.220 yeah that's that's interesting because i always find 50 positioning himself as like you know this

00:25:11.620 person of uh moral rectitude to be really interesting because he's got a lot of stuff

00:25:15.760 uh on his hands and in his uh you know background but i do think that maybe the better word instead

00:25:23.040 of talking about morality for a lot of these guys is code right like there's a code and people could

00:25:28.440 look at diddy and see the way that he operated like i don't think 50 is a good guy but i think

00:25:34.600 that 50 can look at diddy and say this guy has mistreated all of his artists like none of his

00:25:39.020 artists ever have been better off for having worked with him also we know that he does some

00:25:44.400 really questionable like we people didn't know there weren't these allegations we didn't have

00:25:48.900 specificity of the allegations until recently right but it was always like quote diddy parties

00:25:53.960 and that's a weird guy you know diddy wants to go shopping with me why does he want to go shopping

00:25:59.160 with me it was always just sort of like this loaded you know that guy is weird there's some

00:26:03.900 other stuff going on and i don't want to be a part of it and i i you know i could even say that like

00:26:08.820 it's tinged with a little bit of homophobia right yeah yeah that is there so um i definitely think

00:26:14.840 that was a part of it and so yeah i don't i don't think 50 cent is a guy who grew up in the streets

00:26:19.680 robbing people i doubt that he really really cares about like puffy and like you know how

00:26:25.560 how well he treats people but i do think that he identified him as a weirdo early on right

00:26:31.080 and he's just like i don't like that guy and i want to be associated with it and then he could

00:26:34.820 find he it turns out lots of reasons to justify his earlier revulsion uh toward diddy yeah yeah

00:26:42.700 no and even that idea of code like i think some of what is at the heart of like the violations

00:26:47.540 in question with some other pop star feuds is often like quote unquote girl code like

00:26:54.420 like you shouldn't date someone that i've dated kind of thing like you know girls have that code

00:26:59.240 too, huh? That's so funny. Good. All right. I mean, yes and no. Okay. So next question is about

00:27:05.660 a non-existent feud. This comes from Rachel. Uh-oh. Okay. Why do people always try to pit

00:27:12.060 Beyonce and Taylor Swift against each other? From what I've seen, they actually seem to support each

00:27:17.740 other. Didn't they both attend each other's film premieres last year? I don't recall either of them

00:27:22.800 ever saying anything negative about the other. Do they secretly dislike each other or is this just

00:27:27.860 something their fan bases keep stirring up or maybe this all goes back to when kanye interrupted

00:27:33.320 taylor at the vmas and dragged beyonce into it i'd love to hear your take don't you think she

00:27:38.740 answered her own question you think it's like the last two i think it's the last two things yeah

00:27:44.100 yeah right no well and the other thing is like they they are of similar age and then there's

00:27:51.600 just this idea that like there can only be one right which is not the case with let's say male

00:27:57.680 stars right well i mean in hip-hop that's what a lot of this is about you know what i'm saying i

00:28:03.140 mean it's just kind of very similar i thought that kanye needlessly stoked the fires of a beef that

00:28:11.040 probably would have happened anyway uh-huh and i mean it's kind of if you can lay it perfectly

00:28:15.980 over sort of the twitter wars of the early teens uh-huh you know kind of like you know moving into

00:28:22.580 like 2017 2018 and they look i'm from houston i love beyonce like you know i don't want to i i i

00:28:29.860 do have my biases here but but i mean there are a lot of people a lot of beyonce's fans who look

00:28:39.060 at taylor swift and they say this is the woman who has always been given everything she's willowy

00:28:44.960 blonde the adoration of peers everything and they'll and they say she can't dance like beyonce

00:28:50.220 She can't sing like Beyonce. 0.95

00:28:51.920 She can't do all this other stuff.

00:28:53.260 And I'm not going to argue that because I don't think that's fair.

00:28:56.680 I don't know Taylor Swift's music well enough.

00:28:58.640 But I think that there's that resentment.

00:29:00.260 Yeah, no.

00:29:00.740 And I think Taylor Swift in particular becomes almost like a figurehead of the white industry and like white supremacy.

00:29:08.900 And I don't mean that in terms of I'm not saying Taylor Swift is a white supremacist.

00:29:12.620 I'm saying codes of like how like white privilege, for lack of a better word.

00:29:18.220 Right. 0.99

00:29:18.800 You know who she is? 0.97

00:29:19.500 she must be a caitlin clark which is like because she definitely does not want to talk about this in

00:29:24.860 public no you know and she's like she's like well they may have kind of a point and again i'm not

00:29:29.720 saying to beyonce's fans and have a point but she might be like well you know i can't dance like

00:29:33.320 beyonce i can't quite put on a show like her yeah i may have benefited i have benefited from being a

00:29:40.320 beautiful white woman in the public spotlight she hasn't said that but i bet that like you know 0.90

00:29:45.420 like it probably is something that she has to kick around every night again right yeah well

00:29:50.780 and just like people group them together and are like oh well there's a movie from both of them

00:29:54.560 this year do you know what i mean like there are ways that they naturally get grouped in like

00:29:59.220 what is the um what did taylor say about like i want to be excluded from this conversation was

00:30:06.040 that her or was that kim narrative i want to be excluded from this narrative like i think

00:30:10.920 I guess Taylor said it.

00:30:12.220 I'm sorry, Melanie knows.

00:30:13.440 I think sometimes Taylor just wants to be like,

00:30:16.900 stop having this conversation

00:30:19.220 because in some ways it calls into light

00:30:21.580 some of those things.

00:30:23.520 But I don't mean that she's vulnerable about it,

00:30:25.540 but I do think that's part of what's going on.

00:30:27.400 Yeah, I don't think she wants to have it.

00:30:28.700 And also, I'm leaving out the other part of it,

00:30:31.620 is that there are a lot of,

00:30:32.940 I don't even know if they're Taylor Swift fans,

00:30:35.260 there's a lot of animus directed at Beyonce

00:30:37.260 from the other direction, right?

00:30:38.720 like some of it's racism sexism boom racism and sexism people talking about how many people wrote

00:30:44.920 her songs or whatever and trying to diminish her as an artist and so people are rightfully

00:30:49.740 like you know they're they're heightened their sensitivities are heightened when she's not

00:30:56.060 winning album of the year and she's one of the you know the artists who've won the most grammys

00:31:00.340 i think has she won the most grammy i don't know she's 132 i don't that doesn't seem like that

00:31:04.540 shouldn't be the most ever but it's up there yeah like how can you win that you how can you be that

00:31:09.500 excellent and still not have this sign of approval from the industry right right i mean the thing is

00:31:17.000 i mean we don't have to have that argument because i just think it's sort of it's i didn't need prince 0.95

00:31:21.560 to not win album of the year for purple rain to know that purple rain was the shit you know what 0.67

00:31:25.640 i mean but again i know that this is important for for those folks and their fans probably even 0.96

00:31:30.120 more than the artists themselves. And so when you're arguing on the internet, you got to have

00:31:34.840 that kind of that those data points, right? So yeah. Okay, next question is from Katie. And it's

00:31:40.400 about the nature and quality of a celebrity feud. Okay. So I think celebrity feuds have actually

00:31:48.240 gotten less interesting, even as we arguably have more material that can get leaked around.

00:31:54.440 curious if you feel the same to me the people and the feuds themselves are boring though sometimes

00:32:00.720 the cultural conversation sparked can be very interesting really that's the part i'm interested

00:32:06.380 in now i wonder how much of this the dullness to me of the feuds and the people themselves

00:32:12.480 is because there are so many freaking famous people and i hardly know any of them and they

00:32:17.700 all kind of look the same and so i don't have the context for the juicy details or is it because

00:32:24.200 people have a stronger grasp on their image and messaging and are more cautious in where they

00:32:29.060 allow mess to creep out publicly I feel like people got to be or maybe just were so much more

00:32:35.320 eccentric in their nonsense in the pre and early days of social media and now it's all beige

00:32:41.280 interiors actually and emotionally there's so much going on here so what is your first reaction to

00:32:48.580 this my first reaction is this person must be old like me don't you think it's like oh i don't

00:32:54.680 none of these people are famous anymore these are real celebrities not like not like johnny carson

00:32:59.700 you know what i mean or like they're not fighting like again i was just thinking of these historical

00:33:05.240 feuds it's like oh it's not like when jay leno and david letterman were fighting over who would

00:33:13.340 be the queen of late night fighting over the future of late night yeah no yeah no so i i kind

00:33:19.380 of understand where this person's coming from because i don't know anybody anymore do you know

00:33:24.180 what i find to be sort of a fascinating perversion of this trend and how they made themselves

00:33:29.680 because i was thinking about this question and so if you go back to 2018 there used to be this

00:33:36.300 british influencer i guess he's still out there ksi oh yeah and he won the youtube boxing championship

00:33:42.460 belt it is something they created for his one event and he calls out two people after he wins

00:33:47.780 that belt you know who they were jake and logan paul oh right right right and i had never heard

00:33:54.360 of these people then and i remember like you were working at buzzfeed then were you you know i was

00:33:59.020 at espn i was at espn then so i that's a very bruce springsteen age you know what i mean like

00:34:05.020 a cohort of people at espn you know that's and so i did not so this is 2018 i felt like i didn't

00:34:12.240 really know who they were but i remember when logan paul fought ksi at the time i was like i

00:34:17.280 never heard of these people and they're fighting and it's a big deal and like a million people

00:34:21.040 bought this fight i was like what in the hell is going on and they figured out a way to sort of

00:34:25.800 monetize that and make themselves even bigger cultural figures as a result of that but i was

00:34:30.360 like man that's a really good model for making like you know what if you're going to have beef

00:34:34.940 at least fight give us something to grab on to not like innuendo not you know stuff leaked through

00:34:40.980 gossip writers or whatever but like we're actually getting to see it play out in front of us so

00:34:45.000 anyway yeah i don't know but yeah i'm sorry i didn't know the paul did you know you know who

00:34:48.800 the pauls were in 2018 yeah i did but again that's because like i was you know like sitting

00:34:53.940 next to katie nitopolis or something you know of course but uh but i think the idea too like this

00:35:00.760 the the assertion that like everyone looks the same or something like that like that to me

00:35:04.500 that seems to be referencing like reality stars who all do kind of have like kim kardashian face

00:35:10.220 like um and like yeah that rate like that's not interesting if you don't know the narrative

00:35:15.380 absolutely but i think people like who were involved in like the whole vanderpump universe

00:35:20.020 like that was that was incredibly interesting to them right like that was an incredible feud

00:35:26.140 and it wasn't interesting to me because i didn't have that context if you keep up with the real

00:35:30.640 housewives series there's just an endless list of folks that i don't know who they are right but

00:35:36.460 they're having these beefs and if you really follow that i'm sure it's just got to be

00:35:41.120 mesmerizing right it's got to be great and it doesn't it barely matters what they're following

00:35:45.040 over because it's the personalities clashing not them arguing about who didn't clean the dishes

00:35:50.400 you know what i mean or something right yeah yeah but again also taking up these roles as like

00:35:55.020 melodramatic roles that have been slaughtered for them i think like have you been following

00:35:59.260 the blake lively justin baldani a little bit yeah yeah yeah that to me actually is very interesting

00:36:05.500 because they're using the legal system to do some of their dirty work for them.

00:36:10.940 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:11.780 I mean, man, I mean, it's actually,

00:36:14.200 doesn't that just seem like a high stakes gamble?

00:36:15.880 I don't know if I would want that to be my strategy

00:36:19.740 to play around in the court system,

00:36:21.460 but obviously they feel like they've got enough money

00:36:23.920 and that nobody's going to prison, at least yet, right?

00:36:27.920 And so nobody will have to suffer.

00:36:29.220 But yeah, that seems like a really high stakes game of chicken,

00:36:31.280 which is sort of like,

00:36:32.500 that's what Drake is doing with Kendrick now, man,

00:36:34.520 in the universal like when you sue one way to embarrass your opponent is to have things come

00:36:42.420 out in discovery and or just alleged things in a lawsuit right and you may not have to prove them

00:36:46.600 later anyway because it's just a lawsuit right yeah yeah no well and that's the thing like what

00:36:51.840 came out is in discovery so like blake lively released all the stuff that came out in discovery

00:36:57.680 that made justin baldani and the whole team look so bad but then justin baldani also releases like

00:37:03.820 Oh, here's these other texts that include like Blake Lively talking about her dragons.

00:37:09.800 Like she's like the mother of dragons in Game of Thrones and like referencing Taylor Swift as one of her dragons.

00:37:15.840 Like that's just corny, right?

00:37:18.020 It just doesn't make anyone look good.

00:37:23.200 Right, right, right. 0.94

00:37:24.120 You nerd. 1.00

00:37:25.820 You dork. 1.00

00:37:27.420 And I'm calling Taylor Swift as your dragon. 0.99

00:37:30.440 But I do think that, like, you're right, that it's a double-edged sword.

00:37:34.160 We're not getting at the heart of this question, which is that more information makes things less interesting.

00:37:39.640 Do you think that that's true?

00:37:41.480 I don't think so.

00:37:43.060 I disagree with that.

00:37:44.360 Yeah, I don't agree with that at all.

00:37:45.680 I want more information.

00:37:47.200 Yeah.

00:37:48.260 Whenever I see the headline, I'm like, okay, I've got to click on that and figure out because I want to get to the source of it.

00:37:54.520 i really think that yeah she's like me that i get frustrated when i see people on tv and in

00:37:59.600 magazines or blogs i don't know who they are yeah i had a very just a quick aside i had a very

00:38:04.640 similar sensation building up to the election yeah i just remember i was like i don't know who

00:38:08.960 these podcast people are man i was like i don't know how do i know that this person and i remember

00:38:13.760 looking at their videos and endorsements for trump or whatever and their videos would be in the

00:38:18.040 millions yeah the millions and then and then kamala went on saturday night live and i remember

00:38:24.060 thinking i was like man is that actually like is that is being on saturday night live does that

00:38:29.980 make you famous you know does do a lot of people care about that in the way they care about a joe

00:38:34.800 rogan endorsement or whatever right so anyway i i think once you get familiar with it i think that

00:38:40.760 like you said like you said the vanderpump stuff i'm sure that if i watched it i mean i would look

00:38:45.400 my wife was watching a new reality show i don't even remember the name of it and it took me 30

00:38:50.620 minutes to get into it because i just like i bought in and i bought into the beefs yeah you

00:38:55.660 know yeah yeah no that's all it takes no and then you can have i've always thought that the cultural

00:39:00.840 conversations are more interesting than the nitty-gritty so once you can access like the

00:39:05.480 nitty-gritty then you can have these larger more interesting things happening absolutely um okay

00:39:10.420 so this is about how feuds end either intentionally or not we're going to play two questions back to

00:39:15.980 back. The first one is from Kristen. I'm interested in unpacking the celebrity feuds that have come

00:39:20.900 to a resolution, like with Taylor Swift and Katy Perry, for example. How often do celeb feuds get

00:39:26.280 resolved versus remain unresolved, or somewhere in between, like Taylor and Kanye over the years?

00:39:31.420 And how do those resolutions come to be? Is there some sort of quote-unquote guidebook for celebs?

00:39:36.660 And then this is from Emily. We all know history is written by the victors,

00:39:40.640 But what about celebrity feuds? What carries more weight? Pre-feud fame? Who lived longer? The merits of the argument itself? Or some other factor?

00:39:50.180 okay so i want to use an example of a feud that i think still is lives large in the cultural

00:39:57.640 imagination and in our imagination as old uh which is angelina jolie brad pitt jennifer aniston

00:40:04.500 okay so that feud was really positioned as like one of like fighting over brad pitt right like

00:40:12.660 and this is this is so common like it's a trope that there's a scholar um angela mcarabi she calls 1.00

00:40:18.700 it romantic individualism where like in these scenarios even if the women like don't give a 1.00

00:40:27.280 fuck that they are positioned as fighting over the man because the women cannot be allied with

00:40:33.740 one another there's only one winner um and i it reminds me too of this other love triangle that 0.99

00:40:40.340 has always been compared to jennifer aniston angelina jolie brad pitt which is elizabeth

00:40:45.780 taylor eddie fisher and debbie fisher from the 1950s so it was that elizabeth taylor stole eddie

00:40:53.540 fisher from like the cherubic debbie reynolds and that was like it was just everything in the 0.98

00:40:59.900 tabloids for like a decade and they so later elizabeth taylor divorces eddie fisher after

00:41:06.400 like a handful of years and many many many years later they appear in a tv special together

00:41:11.000 uh elizabeth taylor and debbie reynolds and they're like joking like clowning on eddie fisher

00:41:16.160 and to me that's like that's the loser right like the guy was the loser like he always thought he

00:41:23.780 was the main character here but we were the main characters i believe what i love that and i kind

00:41:29.320 of i kind of think like this is similar to what's happening with brad pitt like he's the loser here

00:41:34.220 like jennifer aniston's living her life like still looks exactly the same angelina jolie also living 0.57

00:41:39.840 her life like all the kids don't talk to brad he's just a weirdo it is it is crazy because you're

00:41:45.100 right because it really seemed like brad pitt was like you think what a lucky man you know like as

00:41:49.160 a man he's just like i got these two beautiful women fighting over you yeah and it's just like

00:41:53.120 how can you lose and then you spin it forward and it was like oh and i don't know if that was

00:41:58.680 brad pitt just living more years or if his trajectory was already going in that direction

00:42:03.340 and we just didn't know right right but yeah that is a really fascinating way of thinking about it

00:42:08.740 Because, yeah, I mean, I don't, there's no way that Brad Pitt, I mean, nobody counts on getting old in quite the way they're going to get old.

00:42:17.060 But I don't think people, I don't think Brad Pitt ever kind of thought, oh, I'm going to end up looking like a sad old man here.

00:42:22.920 Yeah.

00:42:23.900 I do, you know, you referenced this at the beginning of the show.

00:42:26.000 Do you think, like, Tupac and Biggie would have, like, grown through things?

00:42:30.440 Yeah.

00:42:30.760 Absolutely.

00:42:31.420 Absolutely.

00:42:32.000 I mean, they had real love for each other.

00:42:33.740 Like, Biggie slept on Tupac's couch.

00:42:37.040 tupac initially wanted to be well biggie wanted tupac to be his manager

00:42:41.860 when they first started out they had real love there isn't that crazy like he he and biggie was

00:42:48.580 going to join tupac's uh affiliate group the outlaws like it was like that's how close they

00:42:54.300 were um and so i definitely think if that had they lived long enough that they probably would

00:43:00.440 have reconciled or at least they would have there would have been some sort of peace but there's

00:43:04.540 another thing of this and this is sort of another uh interesting beef that i'm pulling from the

00:43:08.720 world of sports if people do people if i say this the ali frazier yeah rivalry right yeah three

00:43:15.640 fights you know ali wins two of them and it was joe frazier who helped ali basically after he had

00:43:22.380 gone to prison and you know for abstaining from going to vietnam and everything else like joe

00:43:26.920 frazier was really integral to getting ali licensed again and becoming back a professional boxer

00:43:31.840 and after all those fights he felt that Muhammad Ali had disrespected him and had treated him

00:43:37.460 poorly he called him ugly called him said he looked like a gorilla he did all this stuff

00:43:41.600 in public that really minimized Joe Frazier people don't remember how mean Muhammad Ali was

00:43:46.640 to Joe Frazier so there's this great story in Sports Illustrated many years ago and it stuck

00:43:52.740 with me my for like the last 30 years the story is called the fights over Joe and it talks about

00:43:58.240 how joe frazier in his retirement was still trying to get at muhammad ali even as he's like ravaged

00:44:03.320 by like parkinson's he was still mad like he had not gotten over it and he kept saying well you see

00:44:08.400 how muhammad ali looks like and look how i look and like so now that's who won the fight and so

00:44:13.900 if it's real it might last for the rest of your life like that's something there might not be any

00:44:18.640 coming back um like i think but then doesn't muhammad ali kind of come across as the winner

00:44:23.820 there because he's the one who's like an old age not trying to fight this fight yeah yes right

00:44:29.620 because it makes joe look small and petty and i think so that's kind of the thing i think that

00:44:34.580 if you are um if you're great and you tell a good story about yourself or there's a good story about

00:44:40.360 you that no beef in particular is going to harm you like ll cool j beefed most good rappers that

00:44:48.380 came up in the 80s and 90s yeah and most people are not sitting around talking about cool moldy

00:44:53.180 of cannabis no they're talking about ll cool j you know what i'm saying right right who is still

00:44:59.260 has an like a career like he is someone who people know his name right yeah yeah yeah he's i mean he's

00:45:05.020 doing great and so i think that's kind of how it it ends up going and so like muhammad ali had

00:45:10.460 already put in the work to win that beef yeah yeah that makes sense do you have any predictions for

00:45:16.180 the halftime show is like is kendrick like is he not going to do anything because he has this

00:45:20.400 lawsuit like what yeah what's going to happen well he's definitely going to have to perform

00:45:23.920 well he has yeah he has he cannot not the thing that i was the thing that i was interested in is

00:45:30.000 because you know because all the fires in la and everything and he's from there if it's going to

00:45:34.240 have to be a little bit muted right um if it's going to have to focus a little bit more on you

00:45:38.820 know helping out his hometowns right like that might i wonder if that might take the edge off

00:45:44.080 just a little bit yeah um but yeah i mean i think that i don't think it's possible for drake to lose

00:45:50.880 worse than he already had like what else would happen what else would have to happen

00:45:57.060 like is there someone that he could invite on stage that would just be a real insult to drake

00:46:03.680 lil wayne yeah lil wayne is sort of like his g you know and like the guy that got drake and

00:46:10.360 he was on his record label and Lil Wayne was very salty about not getting the opportunity to perform

00:46:16.500 for his hometown of New Orleans. If they somehow squashed it and he had Lil Wayne on there,

00:46:21.920 it got Lil Wayne to do like, not like us. Like that would be incredible. I don't think that

00:46:26.580 would happen, but Lil Wayne is a guy that's up for grabs, man. Like he'll pose with Trump. He'll

00:46:31.360 do whatever. Like if the money is right, Lil Wayne will show up. So we'll see. It's a possibility. 0.73

00:46:36.040 it's amazing all right well i feel like this has been my dream episode exactly what melody and i

00:46:42.940 envisioned when we came up with this idea thank you so much for taking the time you have a lot

00:46:47.680 going on you have beautiful young new kids that you're trying to you know wrangle and also to be

00:46:54.660 on like a zillion podcasts so this is this is this is i mean look i love my kids but this is more fun

00:47:00.640 you know to them i'm to them i'm just a vessel you know to milk or you know

00:47:06.400 fruit snacks so this is this is this is this was a lot of fun i'm glad i'm glad you remember man

00:47:12.560 and we used to work in the office together and we're doing these big great profiles of hollywood

00:47:17.660 and celebrity and uh always has been a huge fan and and charlie man he's my dog and charlie's up

00:47:22.800 and he's he's in the other room he's probably jealous he's like were you just talking to joel

00:47:26.640 no man tyler was cool man we those old buzzfeed days maybe we have to come back and have a podcast

00:47:31.880 about that no we should that would be that would be an investigative podcast yeah where'd that

00:47:37.060 money go did y'all ever have money did you ever have money well and also you're like you're on

00:47:44.660 the press box which is a common like road trip listening in our house so we listened to it just

00:47:50.580 the other day on the way back from seattle um appreciate that can you can you just tell a little

00:47:54.940 bit about what kind of show it is because I think people would really like it if they knew

00:47:58.400 well thank you yeah no it's um it was twice a week and on Monday uh my co-host Brian Curtis

00:48:05.620 does it with David Shoemaker and on the Thursday he does it with me and basically we're talking

00:48:10.520 about media it's a media criticism podcast Washington Post comes up a lot the owner of

00:48:16.160 the LA Times comes up a lot right now as you might imagine um how people are covering Trump

00:48:20.780 so we're revisiting that and also there's a lot more sports now brian and i are huge

00:48:24.520 sports heads don't let that scare you we try to make it accessible for folks yeah no because it's

00:48:29.400 also about like how is sports coverage working which is something that like i'm not a huge

00:48:34.180 sports head but i've always loved the ringer and before that grantland like that understanding of

00:48:40.320 like we can talk about how sports are covered because that is culture like that's really

00:48:44.360 interesting absolutely absolutely we take that really seriously over there but we also try to

00:48:48.060 have fun with it so we do that and i have to write sometimes at the ringer too so sometimes on the

00:48:52.900 website i put up a post and but i like talking more than writing i don't know about you i like

00:48:58.440 writing more than talking but but i like them both i think they complement each other so i i like them

00:49:04.880 both writing is just so much harder for me but i hear what you're saying thank you again so much

00:49:10.420 for joining us it's been a pleasure thanks sam my pleasure

00:49:12.520 thanks for listening to the free version of the culture study podcast paid subscribers got a

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Culture Study Podcast - February 05, 2025

Fake, Real, Imagined, & Projected CELEBRITY FEUDS!!!

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