00:06:31.660There aren't hard edges, I would say, at least in its current incarnation.
00:06:37.380You have a lot of distinct groups, subcultures, and then you could say more like talking points
00:06:44.080or ideologies that seem to be a bit more free floating.
00:06:46.780So there are, you know, online subcultures like incels who are obsessed with the idea of the fact that like they can't have sex and that the world is actually run by women and that there are all these unfair advantages that certain more attractive wealthy men have, etc.
00:07:03.760That's like a kind of a closed group within the much larger manosphere.
00:07:08.820Then you have people like Andrew Tate who are kind of rise and grind, hustle, culture, alpha types.
00:07:19.660And they're just kind of like, well, they're obsessed with protein and like alpha maleness just generally and optimization in my experience.
00:07:27.060Well, that brings me to like Brian Johnson or even Andrew Huberman, like the outer limits of this. There's a whole kind of like Silicon Valley self-optimization corner of the manosphere who aren't explicitly anti-feminist necessarily, at least like that's not the main thrust of their argument.
00:07:46.820It's more that they just appeal to men and focus on how they individually can make themselves like the best version that they can be, often at the expense of others or the environment.
00:07:59.780And I would say like my feel is that there's an implicit or explicit understanding that like we've gone too far in policing what we're allowed to say and think and how we're allowed to be kind of thing.
00:08:13.520That is, I think, the biggest force in all of this is sort of the male comedians who didn't really have a particular set of politics going into like Me Too and COVID.
00:08:27.880They were, you know, someone like Joe Rogan, very heterogeneous, like what it is that he actually believes.
00:08:33.480He sort of just like repeats whatever the person next to him says for the duration of the episode.
00:08:38.420And then he could have a guest who has a complete opposite view and he'll be like, oh, yeah, that's a good point.
00:08:42.440um yeah but a lot of those guys are like andrew schultz flagrant or theo vaughn they really
00:08:51.000kind of made saying what you're not allowed to say into like a political identity yes and
00:08:59.040i think a lot of men found that very attractive that they were owning the libs and drinking lib
00:09:07.200tears and even if they don't really have a coherent set of policy ideas it's more like an
00:09:16.440attitude and a rejection of all of the kind of liberal centrist quote-unquote woke it doesn't
00:09:25.340really matter like who the enemy is exactly it's just like all of these things were against them
00:09:31.460and you can come and hang out with the boys and you can say slurs and like laugh at jokes
00:09:38.300which we all know are funny and we don't really need to think too hard about what we're saying
00:09:44.580or doing like it's all just in good fun I think that's probably the funnel so to speak like you
00:09:50.820start with Joe Rogan and you might never go down the funnel but from Joe Rogan it's like Jordan
00:09:57.220Peterson, who's been a frequent guest. And then from like Jordan Peterson, maybe it's like Charlie
00:10:02.720Kirk. And then from Charlie Kirk, maybe you're reading Peter Thiel's talks. And the next thing
00:10:10.840you know, you're like, trying to start a colony on Mars. And yeah, like you said, like, I think
00:10:17.900it gets more explicitly political as it goes down, because people get, I think, more engaged in it.
00:10:21.940But kind of the welcome point is often someone like Joe Rogan or like you said as well, like someone like Andrew Huberman.
00:10:29.360And the way that algorithms work and the way the recommendations work, like often lead you to other people in the so-called manosphere.
00:10:36.740So you become part of this larger constellation.
00:10:47.700Today's episode is brought to you by Lola.
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00:12:47.580Today's episode is brought to you by Blueland.
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00:14:54.540So we have all of these great questions today.
00:14:56.980they all come from women great um i think we should start out with this one from megan it's
00:15:03.580fantastic i'd like to explore the idea of nature as feminized i'm an avid outdoors person and
00:15:09.800recreationist and often find myself in male-dominated groups that are obsessed with
00:15:14.560conquering a climb grinding out a backpacking trip or otherwise checking off a gnarly to-do list
00:15:21.100when i am in femme or them dominated groups the discussion is often more centered around
00:15:26.540our connection to nature, the cool little details we've noticed, and yes, big achievements we've
00:15:31.860notched. These differences extend to discussions of the changing climate and the climate crisis.
00:15:37.500Male-dominated groups tend to avoid the topic or change the subject, whereas femme and them-dominated
00:15:43.500groups are more eager and willing to discuss fear, grief, and resilience associated with the crisis.0.78
00:15:50.200I can't help but think one is an extension of the other. If nature is feminized and thus conquerable0.79
00:15:55.820to a subset of men, then why should they care about the climate crisis? Is this a matter of0.73
00:16:00.940hyper-masculine individualism, broader misogyny around nature as a feminine entity, or something
00:16:07.120else entirely? I love our listeners. Fantastic question. What is your first reaction to this?
00:16:14.160Sure. I mean, I will say spending time outdoors is not inherently gendered, right? But there is
00:16:20.940certainly a heroic masculine ideal around the idea of like conquering the frontier or showing
00:16:30.920your strength and toughness through the achievement of some kind of major climb or expedition or
00:16:40.340whatever and i mean that's certainly been a dominant theme in american culture since the
00:16:45.80019th century and it continues to fuel our collective imagination around the idea of
00:16:54.000the outdoors it's why like thousands of people line up to climb Everest because
00:17:00.260most of whom are men uh because they want to yeah right like the tallest mountain right or like the
00:17:08.440the most arduous climb like they want to do those things that are a display of mastery
00:17:15.220Yeah, I don't think that it's inherently a bad thing to want to mark those achievements. But I do think that what your listener pointed out the obsession with the achievement over all else that like, you know, it's not the destination.
00:17:36.380it's the church like that because i'm getting that kind of vibe that she's saying and i think
00:17:42.120it's true like um i think also from the point of view of the climate crisis i mean people who care
00:17:47.800about the outdoors do tend to well some of them believe in the importance of of the climate crisis
00:17:56.240i don't want to um at least the people who are recreating in the way that she's describing
00:18:00.300who are who are doing the kind of like lib-coded outdoor activities like hiking and climbing.
00:18:08.660See, this is so interesting to me. Like I used to live in Montana and the biggest
00:18:12.700advocates for the outdoors, broadly speaking, are not necessarily what we would call
00:18:19.820conservationists. Like they are people who are advocates for public lands. So they like that
00:18:25.920is their entry point is i want to use the land as a public land owner right like backcountry hunters
00:18:32.420and anglers the back of their shirts say public land owner and they use it to recreate and that
00:18:38.800means so many things that can mean hunting of course but also going on snowmobiles or four
00:18:45.900wheeling like all of these different things and part of their selling point and why they are like
00:18:50.140such a I think bipartisan coalition in a lot of ways is because they're like being a public land
00:18:58.640owner means being able to do what you want on public lands and interestingly there was a very
00:19:05.340much like non-partisan push to strip the recent in the big beautiful bill there was a provision
00:19:13.000that was going to sell off a bunch of public lands and I was following a lot of conservative
00:19:18.760influencers and manosphere types who actually came out against it and um you know we're saying
00:19:26.200like politics doesn't matter like this isn't a good idea like call your representative call your
00:19:32.140senator and it did get stripped um from the final legislation so i i found that to be heartening
00:19:40.620and and an indication that like there are ways in which um environmental politics can cross
00:19:47.700partisan divides and like gender identity and like all of this stuff like there there is
00:19:54.620some common ground to build on um you know what your listener said about like the acknowledgement
00:20:01.660of the feelings around climate and her male companion's apparent refusal to talk about that
00:20:09.180yeah i mean i think that that gets at one of the central problems that we discuss in in carbon
00:20:16.100bros is is kind of what you do with that anxiety and fear and the way it gets channeled into a
00:20:24.260denial or or even like a death drive rather than um into kind of solidarity or uh work towards a
00:20:34.960better future can you say more about that because i would love to like i don't know kind of just
00:20:40.240process that a little bit more that idea that like you don't want to sit with the grief it's
00:20:44.200like feminized to like deal with your feelings in that way yeah there's a fair amount of evidence
00:20:51.580about like how men and women um are socialized to express their feelings and that the social
00:21:01.180pressure to not express becomes a kind of like internal incapacity to even like acknowledge or
00:21:10.000feel those feelings like the less you're allowed to like show an emotion the more it even becomes
00:21:15.680difficult to like process and understand what that emotion is that's going on inside of you
00:21:20.900yeah and that then like the only acceptable like emotion becomes anger yeah and which is then
00:21:28.680expressed through violence and it's this kind of like inchoate animal force that has been ignored
00:21:38.180or suppressed or and you know often through things like you know mass shooting events or
00:21:43.940people driving their cars through protesters or you know these these kinds of like eruptions of
00:21:49.640of rage is it sometimes like that also the tendency to glom onto conspiracy theories too
00:21:55.780because like I think about when you watch like a massive forest fire ripping through like as
00:22:02.280a place that is very special to you you can either talk about like okay well this is the
00:22:08.200result of like a pretty complicated history of like how we have and haven't chosen to manage
00:22:15.300those forests and all sorts of things right it's like building too close to the forests all sorts
00:22:20.480of things right or you can be like this is a conspiracy like this is like these are the people
00:22:26.500yeah totally totally yeah or it's or it's dei um forest fire fighters or yeah i mean and and
00:22:35.560it's laughable to us or jewish space lasers but it is in a way like more um and and these
00:22:43.920conspiracies like they don't just exist on the internet you know what you're talking about um
00:22:48.400i think oregon actually what in 2021 when they were experiencing pretty severe wildfires
00:22:55.300there were a number of like roving bands of militias that were out there searching for
00:23:02.740the supposed antifa um arsonists who had started these fires and they had set up checkpoints and
00:23:10.200they were you know trying to find like so yeah this this kind of paranoia um and and yeah an
00:23:17.560inability to recognize like what the big real problem is can be channeled into into really
00:23:22.900violent and scary outcomes. So yeah, I think you're right. It actually kind of, I think you've teed up
00:23:32.960the second question too really nicely. This one comes from Monica.
00:23:38.700I read about Naomi Klein's account of those who believe climate change is, quote,
00:23:44.800a plot to steal American freedom, end quote, and who would rather go down a give me liberty or give
00:23:52.100me death path, where liberty is unfettered fossil fuel extraction and use, and death is, well, death
00:24:01.300of the individual, and the ecosystem, and so on due to climate change. And I wonder where the root
00:24:07.720is. American car culture? Manifest destiny? The shameful legacy of human enslavement and
00:24:15.840racialization of colonial societies on this continent? To divide people by race and destroy0.98
00:24:21.360class solidarity? How did we get to a place where some folks interpret scientific data as a plot
00:24:29.080to constrain their individual lives without any shared benefit? See also COVID vaccine resistance
00:24:37.540and denialism. It is like, it's just so real. Like when you spell it out like that, you're like,
00:24:43.020yeah, that's all part of it. Yeah. I mean, I think we need to sort of put a few of those
00:24:49.080big ideas in parentheses i will maybe address the beginning and end of the question in this
00:24:56.280one and and i think we'll end up touching on some of those other themes yeah subsequently
00:25:01.080but yeah this idea of give me liberty and it's really and death um because yeah yeah yeah you're
00:25:10.200going to uh you're going to kill the future for your children and and and even potentially for
00:25:16.300yourself depending on how old you are i think that the the kind of death drive that animates
00:25:22.360the far right and and the kind of denial of of the climate crisis is perplexing to people who don't
00:25:30.200want to see the end of the world but there is yeah a very strong apocalyptic strain and a very strong
00:25:37.500kind of like perverse sovereignty or obsession with yeah the individual that that animates the
00:25:46.440climate denial it's essentially like it's not just a denial of science which i think many ages
00:25:53.880many times there have been groups of people who reject scientific evidence because they find that
00:26:01.340it's creepy or icky or contradicts you know deeply held values or fundamental like challenging a
00:26:09.540fundamental thing that you believe about the way things work like it's i think if you are not if
00:26:15.380you have not grown up or been socialized in a world where you're used to like incorporating
00:26:21.520new information new and challenging information and like not having that threaten your entire
00:26:25.840sense of self. Like it's hard sometimes to take ourselves out of that and to feel like, oh, well,
00:26:32.040this would be really scary. It's interesting because climate science wasn't always so
00:26:37.100politicized and it wasn't always so caught up in identity. Like, you know, this is something we
00:26:42.420talk about in the show and I've talked about it in non-toxic as well, that if you go back to like
00:26:47.960the 80s and early 90s, when there was this real growing consensus in the U.S. and globally that
00:26:54.680governments needed to intervene and do something about the climate crisis, as they had done with
00:27:01.940the hole in the ozone layer. And most Americans felt this was a problem and thought that we needed
00:27:08.180to do something about it. And there wasn't, I mean, there was some ideological divide.
00:27:14.200Conservatives and Republicans were less likely to believe that the government needed to take action
00:27:18.540because of commitments to small government and, you know, anti-environmentalism and whatever else.
00:27:23.380But it wasn't like a major faction and it wasn't an article of faith to be a Republican. You had to deny climate. That wasn't a thing yet. And the fossil fuel industry did a really good job of making it an article of faith on the Republican side in a way that's very depressing. Right. We could have averted so much of this catastrophe.
00:27:42.980but on the other hand it does show that like new technology or like science isn't like innately
00:27:49.500seen through a partisan lens and it takes like a process of uh discourse and like a lot of
00:27:56.920incentives on the part of political actors to like make that happen like i think we're seeing
00:28:01.140it right now with ai that ai like doesn't neatly fit like what your attitude towards it is doesn't
00:28:07.940neatly fit into like one political category or another but i think it will in the next four years
00:28:14.600um as we saw with climate and as we saw with covid and to go back to like the liberty part
00:28:21.280yeah i think there is this idea that you don't owe anyone anything like we don't live in a society
00:28:29.240you know it's to quote margaret thatcher um society doesn't exist and that that's the kind
00:28:35.960of apotheosis of that idea because both climate and covid were real illustrations like actually
00:28:45.880we do live in a society and your actions directly affect other people and if we take like certain
00:28:53.960measures for public health or for like planetary health we can save a lot of people but it requires
00:29:00.760is some moderate sacrifice on your part and a lot of people felt that that sacrifice was an
00:29:07.420imposition that it was a kind of yeah tyranny that they needed to overthrow um obviously i don't agree
00:29:17.640with i mean it just like we have this incredibly strong strain of american individualism that runs
00:29:24.120through like american ideologies and that's just been the case and we've gone through periods where
00:29:29.220we've had much more like much more solidarity much more like communitarian thinking like
00:29:36.140especially around various wars and that sort of thing but it's still there and that idea part of
00:29:43.500me thinks too like as we confront increasing globalization like there's this feeling almost
00:29:50.600of impotence like well it not only doesn't matter what I do but like whatever our nation decides to
00:29:55.580do like it doesn't matter if the other nations aren't doing it like i've heard that actually a
00:29:59.160lot and a lot from men they're like yes well china like why does it matter what we do if we can't0.84
00:30:05.660control china so might as well do whatever we want in order to beat china or whatever right0.98
00:30:10.300yeah which of course is like totally blinkered even on its own terms because china is now like0.98
00:30:16.480leading the global economy in all of their kind of sustainability solutions they're the largest0.68
00:30:20.880electric car makers they're crushing tesla they make all the solar panels they like own battery0.71
00:30:27.380technology so the future of the green economy is like owned by china essentially because we0.95
00:30:32.720we abdicated that and this idea that we're gonna like drill our way out of that situation is is
00:30:39.900completely absurd like the whole world is moving to renewables and the question is like whether
00:30:46.520we're going to do it fast enough or not and the idea that we can just pump more oil and gas and
00:30:52.240that's going to like give us a competitive edge is is a complete fantasy i'm just noticing some
00:30:57.840of the language that we're using here like i just said impotence and you're talking about like
00:31:02.780drilling and like pumping oil right like even the language itself like we use this vernacular of
00:31:09.700like virility and american virility and panic over virility and i think a lot of like that fear of
00:31:16.360impotence undergirds so much of the reaction right yeah and a lot of it is a kind of economic
00:31:22.980anxiety this comes up a lot in the show that gets transferred into a rejection of of kind of social
00:31:29.680issues or culture war issues so when when men feel like they have no way to meet their basic
00:31:37.560needs for themselves and their families or they feel like they have no future because they're
00:31:41.800never going to be able to buy a house they're never going to be able to get married they look
00:31:47.500to people who have answers and the answers from the democratic party have been extremely mid and
00:31:55.260to say the least i agree and um whereas the right has had a really compelling story to tell and one
00:32:05.560of the things they do is they tie together feminism as a kind of restriction on your like
00:32:10.700individual choices and how you get to live your life and what you can say and you know being just
00:32:15.960being a man and this you know and it's also and things like the climate protesters who are like
00:32:21.300getting in the way of you getting a job right they're the ones who are preventing us from
00:32:27.080having the robust economy that would grant you all of the masculine kind of milestones that you need0.64
00:32:34.680in order to achieve a successful life as an American man.
00:35:11.580So, yeah, there's this kind of, like, zombie image of the poor, embattled oil worker or coal miner that the Republicans love to invoke as a worker that they're defending.
00:35:25.480Trump's always talking about minors I don't think he's ever met a minor in his life but it's very
00:35:30.060effective as this kind of like weird nostalgia that we used to have for you know these these
00:35:36.520tough jobs and the people who did them and their honorable work and their contributions and like
00:35:42.320all of that is true like it is a really hard job like I can't imagine being a coal miner but there
00:35:49.760aren't really that many of them because we don't actually burn much coal anymore and it doesn't
00:35:54.580have to do with democrats and it certainly has nothing to do with feminism but um somehow like
00:36:03.020that's the web they've woven and um and yeah i think if we can say like it's not the like climate0.99
00:36:12.680protesters it's not feminists who are taking away your jobs or telling you how to live like it's1.00
00:36:17.380your boss who's taking away your job it's the republicans who are taking away your job because1.00
00:36:23.260they're just automating everything and they're happy to build a data center and that's gonna
00:36:30.300you know make you redundant and they don't care what happens to you there's not going to be a
00:36:34.540social welfare net there's not going to be anything and they don't want to pay for like
00:36:37.900reskilling programs and that sort of thing necessarily i think some actually some red
00:36:42.200states are doing this in different ways or have done this but it won't happen on a federal level
00:36:46.720today's episode is brought to you by one skin so sometimes i wake up in the morning and i'm like
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00:39:00.640we send you today's episode is brought to you by article here's the thing we always talk about
00:39:05.700articles furniture but they have really great throw pillows and i am a bit of a throw pillow0.91
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00:39:21.000i have like big sitting chairs is you can take off the fabric and put it in the washing machine
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00:39:49.900looks like really bright and great. I love it. So it's like new life to a six-year-old chair.
00:47:38.980and you just kind of modify it as you want but it's it's electric and it's meant to look kind
00:47:47.280of like you know like an old jeep wrangler or uh like defender yeah in that it's like very bare
00:47:54.160bones there's not even like a stereo in there and you just like stick your own speaker like
00:47:59.280you roll the window up manually yeah um huh i find that kind of intriguing like as an alternative to
00:48:06.260like the souped up like insane cyber truck concept the other thing that it like the kind of dissonance
00:48:13.860for me with a truck is that it isn't very optimized a truck is not an optimized vehicle
00:48:18.760and so it runs counter to all of this other discourse about like how can you optimize your
00:48:23.220life and your body and all of these other things at the cost of others at the cost of so many
00:48:29.300different things but like that i guess i'm just trying to underline how none of this like it's
00:48:36.260Coherent. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not about creating like a perfect system where each thing logically snaps into place. It's about like doing what makes people feel good in the moment and like reassures them and like having a truck.
00:48:53.360Yeah, it gives them a story to tell about their lives and like who they are. It doesn't have to really add up because most people have like the memory of goldfish and like the same level of like interest in self-reflection. And so, yeah, I think you can like the right doesn't have a problem telling you a lot of different lies and things that like contradict one another and kind of just throwing it all at the wall and seeing what sticks.
00:49:19.520like the left is obsessed with like well you know got to make sure like you pass this purity test
00:49:25.480and then like we gotta see how like these two things line up and if they're not sufficiently
00:49:30.200intersectional then well and it's that that feeling of constriction that this like embrace
00:49:36.860of like liberty at all costs is is pushing up against right like okay well what about
00:49:42.560white nationalist christianity like how does that fit into how does that fit into the climate denial
00:49:49.120um i mean i'm not an expert in like the far right in christianity i'll just say that we did
00:49:54.900interview sophie burke james who's a researcher at vanderbilt and she really studies this pretty
00:50:01.120exclusively um in that conversation i did think it was interesting the evangelical community
00:50:09.960i don't think had you know a particular opinion about climate change um initially but as they
00:50:19.300became like a political force in the 70s and 80s in the backlash to roe v wade um i think the kind
00:50:27.720of science around abortion like and the question of like how you relate to science as a religious
00:50:35.180person was important in shaping evolution too right yeah and and earlier back yeah sure we
00:50:41.020could we can go to evolution though i don't think that like the religious right was as like mobilized
00:50:47.160as a political block during like the kind of scopes era as they as they would be subsequently
00:50:53.740um but yeah i do think this question of like how did evangelicals abandon the natural world in favor
00:51:02.000of like apocalypse is interesting because i mean they do like apocalypse is necessary for the
00:51:09.140coming of christ so like that that makes sense i do think like you know the the white nationalism
00:51:15.220like you have this like these strains of masculinity that are so vibrant within
00:51:19.940christian nationalism and then a rejection of science and then i also think that like
00:51:26.940part of it too because you act within um like jesuit catholicism they believe in i think it's
00:51:34.540called the whole cloth uh theory of the world so it's like there's a reverence for life in all of
00:51:40.320its ways right so it's like they are pro-life and they are against like assisted suicide
00:51:45.100but they are environmentalists like they are they do have what this person discussed as like an
00:51:51.720ethic of creation care right like that is very much coming from that tradition so a lot of
00:51:56.220evangelical christians subscribe to the idea of dominion which you know really links um the
00:52:01.580relationship between men and women that like women are subservient to men and that they um are under
00:52:09.060their protection and control and likewise that like all the creatures on earth and the earth
00:52:14.320itself are also under man's dominion and that um dominion means like you can really do whatever
00:52:20.500you want and there's not the same idea that like you need to care for the world in order to leave
00:52:27.720it to the next generation or like like that's really abandoned um it's just about like you're0.79
00:52:34.340in charge and it's and it's up to you as a man to decide what you want to do with women with the
00:52:41.660natural world with your children like everyone kind of is going through you um and and you alone0.99
00:52:47.560decide and that's yeah not the case for catholics and not the case for like even like black
00:52:53.320liberation theologians like don't subscribe to that um so yeah it is also very much a racialized
00:53:00.960idea um in the sense that yeah there are many black evangelicals who reject this dominion and
00:53:08.680going back to this the very beginning question like the idea of like that god given like manifest
00:53:14.860destiny like the if you believe in dominion you believe that this is what god is telling you
00:53:20.280right is that you have you have the wisdom and discernment to know how god would want you to0.57
00:53:29.380rule these things and that again is you know the masculinized control of the feminized world
00:53:37.140that's a great and horrible place for us to stop today if people want to find the podcast
00:53:44.680and more of your work, where can they find it? So, I mean, you can find Carbon Bros wherever
00:53:49.620podcasts are sold. Non-Toxic, which is my half of the two podcasts that are collaborating.
00:53:58.660We've got a sub stack, the Non-Toxic newsletter, and you can find previous seasons of Non-Toxic
00:54:05.980also anywhere where you would listen to a podcast. And then I will plug Drilled as well. So my
00:54:11.600collaborator, Amy Westervelt. She runs Drilled, which is kind of the original podcast about
00:54:18.680climate crisis. Highly recommend. And she's been doing this work for years. And they just had a
00:54:25.000new season called Slapped about the lawsuit between energy transfer and Greenpeace over the
00:54:31.100protests around the Dakota Access Pipeline. And that's a great season. I definitely would
00:54:36.220recommend it to any listeners. Amazing. Thank you again. Thanks for having me.
00:54:41.600Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.
00:54:45.480Today, paid subscribers got an Ask Anne Anything segment about how people keep their houses