Culture Study Podcast - Just Trust Us on This Queer Historical Romance Ep, It Rules

00:00:00.000 Hey, everyone. We just wanted to go over a few upcoming episode ideas so that you can submit

00:00:04.200 your questions. We're going to do a star image analysis of Hilary Duff in honor of her new 0.96

00:00:09.160 album, which is out after a 10-year musical hiatus. She's touring. She's doing all the

00:00:14.520 podcasts and profiles. And Melody loves her. We have Allie Jones. I love her so much.

00:00:21.040 We have Allie Jones, who writes a fantastic gossip newsletter. And at the end of every issue,

00:00:27.320 She has stuff by Hilary Duff. So I actually have kept up to date somewhat on what Hilary Duff is doing because Allie has kept me updated. But like what an interesting mid millennial star image for us to analyze. So send us your questions.

00:00:43.760 We've also got an episode about kid influencers, specifically like how they look back on being a kid influencer, how they grapple with being a person who basically like sells a lifestyle or sells their parents' lifestyle.

00:00:58.840 We're going to be doing this episode with someone who's written a whole book talking to a bunch of former kid influencers.

00:01:04.040 So a ton to unpack here.

00:01:06.000 Just take it wherever you want.

00:01:07.320 And then we're working on an episode about conversion therapy with someone who lived through it and has written a memoir about it.

00:01:13.080 So what do you want to ask him?

00:01:15.400 Finally, we're also working on a really fun episode about gossip.

00:01:18.700 So we talk about celebrity gossip a ton on the show.

00:01:21.400 And yes, we will talk about that in some form in this episode.

00:01:24.160 But we're also going to talk about normal people gossip, about old school gossip columns,

00:01:30.000 about the way that just like sitting down and like talking to your friends, like just 1.00

00:01:34.440 talking shit to your friends. 0.99

00:01:36.000 Like, what does that do? 1.00

00:01:37.320 Why do we like doing it?

00:01:38.620 All of that sort of thing.

00:01:39.540 the person who we're going to have as our co-host studies specifically the way that gossip columns

00:01:44.820 worked in the historically black newspapers from the 1930s to the 1960s which is such an interesting

00:01:50.880 period to talk about gossip so i cannot wait for this episode but we need your questions as always

00:01:56.740 so submit all of your questions for all of these episodes or for the ask and anything segment we

00:02:02.920 always need your questions for that using the quick and easy submission form which is at tinyurl.com

00:02:09.040 slash culturestudypod. There's always a link in the show notes as well. Okay. Thanks, everyone.

00:02:14.320 Enjoy today's show. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne-Hellen Peterson.

00:02:26.520 And I'm Kat Sebastian, and I write queer romance, including Starship.

00:02:31.660 Which is your new one that's just come out.

00:02:34.000 Yes. If I'm counting right, you've written 21 queer historical romances.

00:02:39.360 Yeah, that's my count, too, is it's 21 or 22. Like I had a Word document that had listed all

00:02:46.560 of them, plus their Word counts. And then like when I got when I realized I was at like a million

00:02:51.000 words, I said, you know what, we're just going to lose this file. Like we're not opening this

00:02:54.600 document. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It is what it is. It's not my business how many

00:02:58.460 books i've written at this point and but the one that just came out it's contemporary right i mean

00:03:04.800 i guess like if it's set how does like how does one decide what's historical this is like arguing

00:03:10.600 over what makes something classic rock right um uh the technical definition for classic rock is 20

00:03:17.280 years in the past which means that like in sync is classic rock my daughter was listening to like

00:03:23.020 Smash Mouth or something okay and like and like I was informed this was dad music and like I almost

00:03:29.460 drove off the road okay like I have no like I have like oh and Hootie and the Blowfish like it's like

00:03:35.360 what like first of all like how did those wind up like in the Pantheon okay I mean Hootie and

00:03:42.960 the Blowfish I remember this so vividly was at the very top of Entertainment Weekly's

00:03:47.440 best-selling records in the United States for a year and just like single after single they all

00:03:54.600 sounded exactly the same I love Hootie um but this book comes out within the last 20 years

00:04:00.900 can you tell us about it like tell us the plot I love the cover I can't wait to read it

00:04:04.980 so it's a long-running sci-fi show and yes um to the two stars of the show

00:04:12.740 hate one another or they think they hate one another they hate one another but they've been

00:04:17.380 carpooling to work okay um it's like really important to the like psyche of one of them

00:04:23.400 our point of view character that they hate one another and when one of them decides to leave 0.98

00:04:29.320 the show he realizes that it's going to look like he was pushed out for just being a jerk 0.98

00:04:36.580 because he kind of is a jerk and so he decides that what he needs to do is like do a pr stunt 0.99

00:04:45.100 like fake a friendship like he's oh he's like such good friends with this co-worker who he hates 0.99

00:04:49.900 like it turns out i'm really easy to work with look at this you know and um what ensues is that

00:04:57.360 they turn out to have more in common than they thought oh uh it kind of reminds me of katherine

00:05:02.820 heigl like exiting grace anatomy and being like no i'm friends with everyone yes like yes everyone

00:05:09.180 likes yes yes it happens all the time too you know like where where you're like oh i just you

00:05:14.740 know like i i'm sure you're very likable i'm sure your mom likes you like i'm sure it's all good

00:05:19.820 uh would you describe the vibe of the sci-fi show as more like battleship galactica or more

00:05:27.200 like deep space nine like what kind of sci-fi are we talking about yeah okay so battlestar galactica

00:05:34.660 is like what i had in mind in terms of like i love my start my spaceship shows okay but most

00:05:39.840 of them aren't what you would call like prestige TV okay no but like with Galactica you get like

00:05:45.520 almost that energy right like it was like oh totally appointment viewing like when it first

00:05:50.620 came out you know and I will also say there is a whole quadrant of media studies academics who

00:05:57.740 are obsessed with it which are often like it's not always a marker of quote-unquote quality

00:06:03.380 television but like there was just a lot of stuff going on there I was fully obsessed like I made

00:06:08.860 my children watch it like a year ago and yeah what they think what they think they hated it but

00:06:14.020 they hate all of my spaceship shows so like whatever you know they like the fact that they

00:06:18.580 didn't like it means it's really good actually um so you have so many huge fans in our audience

00:06:26.580 but for people who have not read your books I love how you describe your books just generally

00:06:33.500 I've I've seen it a few different places like different interviews you've done how you've

00:06:37.440 described it so i would love to hear and maybe that's changed maybe maybe now you have a new

00:06:42.100 way of describing but what do you say usually i'm into it um sweaters and crying like

00:06:47.160 the one melody and i were admiring before was um like the vibes to plot ratio is heavy on the vibes

00:06:56.960 yeah it's like there's just enough plot to like make it stick together you know like just enough

00:07:02.500 like just enough to like to like keep the dough like solidified you know um they have to like

00:07:08.540 what I was I'm doing revisions for my next book and like it came out like a giant mask the way

00:07:15.720 it usually does and I was telling the editor like I just needed the character to have been doing

00:07:20.040 something while they're falling in love you know like I was like that's it like that's it like that

00:07:25.600 is the kernel of like my like journey as a writer is I have to find out what they're doing while

00:07:30.380 Like, I think the interpersonal stuff is pretty easy for me to figure out.

00:07:34.020 But, like, what are they doing?

00:07:35.060 I can't just make them sit in a room and have, like, conversations, you know?

00:07:38.740 Yeah.

00:07:39.940 There has to be something.

00:07:41.340 And that something is nominally a plot.

00:07:44.640 And I can tell, too, that you get really into, like, a time period and are like, oh, the post-war newspaper industry was really interested in New York.

00:07:52.900 And you're like, so let's do that.

00:07:55.220 That's exactly what it is, where it's like, it's hard.

00:07:57.740 Like, there's a chicken and an egg situation here, right?

00:08:00.140 Like, the book that was about baseball, is that because I'm into baseball or was I like into baseball because I was already kind of researching the book?

00:08:07.460 Who knows?

00:08:07.980 We'll never know.

00:08:08.800 But like that is like part of the fun of writing historical fiction in general is that you can spend a year of your life like doing like immersive research on something that can become your like all-encompassing special interest.

00:08:22.380 And then just at the point when you start to get bored of it, you can pick something else.

00:08:27.460 Yeah.

00:08:28.200 I love it.

00:08:28.920 Or you can write another book there.

00:08:30.400 You can be like, there's still more.

00:08:32.300 Right.

00:08:32.720 Like, I'm waiting for that to happen.

00:08:34.620 You know, like, usually, like, usually, usually it's like after a book, I'm like really ready to go, you know, other places, other things.

00:08:45.540 To have characters wear different types of like formal wear and casual wear, like to describe that.

00:08:51.360 Your first book came out a decade ago.

00:08:53.640 what was the landscape of queer stories with historical romance at that time like what do

00:08:59.900 you remember when your books came out like how did people talk about them okay so like 0.83

00:09:03.680 slightly irritatingly like the narrative at the time was like it's this is like the first queer 0.62

00:09:09.440 romance like ever written like here she is like she did it no one's done it right and like that's

00:09:14.720 not true i mean like people know it's like it's not even true somebody pointed out that it wasn't

00:09:19.860 even true within my publisher you know but like there was queer historical romance it's just that

00:09:28.340 like you had to go looking for it right like you had to like you had to know where to look you had

00:09:33.800 to know where to start the game of follow the links right yeah you had to be following the

00:09:39.040 right people on social media and this is all a very high barrier to entry yeah you just want

00:09:44.140 to pick up a book but like p.j. charles was writing um totally jordan hawk was writing and

00:09:51.180 that's like what like you know like i don't if they hadn't been writing what they were writing

00:09:54.380 like set in the past right i don't think it would have occurred to me to do it you know yeah um yeah

00:10:00.560 yeah yeah like and what i had in mind was like something very like when i started to write i

00:10:08.180 had been reading a lot of like regency set romances like a lot like back to back never

00:10:13.200 like when my kids were babies like I basically had a book in one hand and a baby but they were

00:10:18.200 all babies at once basically you know what I mean like and a baby in the other and it was like

00:10:21.540 absolutely self-medication and like eventually it occurred to me like wait a second you know like 0.97

00:10:26.800 there's no queer people everybody's like remarkably mentally well you know 0.99

00:10:33.000 where they're like they start out like kind of like dark because they have like a tough childhood 1.00

00:10:38.760 but that's magically cured by the love of a good woman yes and like you know if only you know um

00:10:45.880 if only there were all these women out there who were like going to going to solve our traumas

00:10:51.100 but um i wanted to like take that like because regency romance has like there's an energy of 0.97

00:10:56.600 shared universe like fandom type of energy where it's like for sure it is related to history but

00:11:02.680 it's mostly related to other works of fiction set in the same in the same universe right like

00:11:08.220 rich people London um it's drawing on like a collective imaginary that exists in our heads

00:11:15.320 which is great from an from like an accessibility standpoint where like you pick up a book and you

00:11:20.920 don't have to if you need to turn off part of your brain right you have that option where you already

00:11:27.000 know where these people are what they're wearing and what they're dancing to and what their day 0.98

00:11:31.420 looks like you know um and so I wanted to take that universe and fill it up with like queer 0.97

00:11:38.620 people that's what I wanted to do and it turns out that once you start doing that you also wind 1.00

00:11:43.720 up having to unpick a lot of other like foundational parts of this universe where

00:11:48.780 totally it was like it took me like five pages before I realized I found writing about rich

00:11:58.460 people like privileged people to be like least appealing thing like being like the rich like

00:12:02.460 like somebody who inherited wealth and privilege was the least attractive thing a person could

00:12:07.140 could be you know it does so i think this is a different sort of coziness right is that the

00:12:16.020 coziness of not having to worry about money all the time and part of the reason why many people

00:12:20.220 seek solace totally in these books yeah it's like um this is also why people read about like

00:12:26.500 billionaire romance and stuff where it's just like just imagine not having to think about it

00:12:30.660 right right but it turns out when you're writing about right so reading a book that's a couple of

00:12:34.880 hours writing a book like i have to spend many many months of my life and i can't spend many

00:12:41.100 many months of my life with somebody who i want to tie to the train tracks you know right right

00:12:46.120 like at least not in that particular way you know what i mean and you and you can't when you have

00:12:50.560 the knowledge of like how colonialism was working in this time like you i would imagine as a writer

00:12:56.000 if you know all of this stuff you can't like turn it off and be like oh we're just gonna like

00:13:00.600 pretend that doesn't like exist in this world right it's very difficult it's like it is if you

00:13:07.640 put everybody in outer space right where like they have different problems you know like then I can

00:13:13.680 I have a it's easier for me then to just say like okay sure like he's the space king you know what

00:13:21.820 you mean like you know what i mean like and i'm just gonna go with that you know totally but like

00:13:26.220 because i don't know i don't i don't know the details of like who's being marginalized by that

00:13:30.540 trade agreement you know yeah it's always that's kind of the beauty i've always loved that about

00:13:36.580 like space dramas right as they can kind of configure these new ideas about how like race

00:13:42.180 works right or like what if we don't have to eat ever um that's sort of thing uh we're gonna get

00:13:50.520 to this more in the questions but i think oftentimes people have been convinced or persuaded

00:13:56.440 by narratives that like well if you want to be like grappling with reality or historical reality

00:14:03.120 then like you could never have someone who's queer like they would be you know what i mean

00:14:07.640 like just these very blanket narratives that are of course we're like eager that queer people you

00:14:13.160 know like got invented in 1995 like that's always which is also like ellen ellen went on the cover

00:14:19.220 people magazine and then gay people existed that's right that's how it happened like i was

00:14:23.500 there i remember being like oh i didn't exist and then i sprang fully into being um but like

00:14:32.120 you know like and that's always very sweet like that's i don't really i don't i don't really know

00:14:37.720 what kind of like shelter like you have to have to believe that but like good for you you know

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00:18:35.040 full-length mirror, head to article.com. Okay, so our questions are so fantastic. We're going to

00:18:49.260 start with one that's going to open a lot of doors for us from Katie. Your latest novel, After Hours

00:18:54.760 at Dooryard Books, felt wildly relevant to me. It made me reflect intensely on questions like

00:19:00.400 how we balance personal safety with solidarity, how we intentionally build community, and how we

00:19:06.200 keep or reclaim our values in a corrupt system. When you start writing a historical novel, do you

00:19:12.220 have a clear idea in mind of contemporary themes you plan to explore, or do you just have the plot

00:19:17.120 and characters and the themes emerge organically for me um I don't usually start out with like I

00:19:23.040 definitely don't know what the themes are going to be and I only have the loosest grasp on who

00:19:27.260 the characters are I have a setup and a sense of how these characters are going to relate to

00:19:33.380 one another like do they like one another do they respect one another and as I'm writing I

00:19:38.260 get deep into who the characters are and then as I'm writing themes like patterns crop up and I'm

00:19:44.540 like okay like this is something that's important to the story to the characters to me you know

00:19:49.200 yeah um and with story art books like it takes place in um in 1968 which until recently probably

00:19:56.020 like took the record as the worst year in American history and um yeah and like I wrote the book in

00:20:02.960 20 the first draft in 2023 and I mean like the politics were there like the events were there

00:20:08.280 but the idea of um feeling complicit in the evils that your country is doing wasn't there

00:20:17.160 and so as I'm revising it last year like that was all I could think about and so like yeah that

00:20:23.180 made it in and it also made sense like given who those characters are and like what they you know

00:20:27.760 that they also would be thinking about that but I am a writer who writes pretty messily I delete

00:20:34.980 probably as many words as I write and it is by that process of like refining that I figure out

00:20:42.020 like who these people are and what the like who I'm making them you know what I mean like who am

00:20:46.260 I making them like how do how do I make these like words on a page into human beings and how

00:20:51.340 do I make the things that keep repeating into a theme that's going to be satisfying for the reader

00:20:56.560 without them being hit on the head with like a plank that says go to a protest you know what I

00:21:02.220 mean like or what you know yeah just that like didactic like here's how it connects to the

00:21:07.700 present right like right a parenthetical without being a parenthetical right that to me is so like

00:21:13.880 infantilizing in a way i don't want it to be prescriptive and i don't i really really like

00:21:21.400 one thing that i i get very bothered when i'm reading a book and it treats me like someone

00:21:27.300 who doesn't know how to like look at wikipedia or have a thought or like remember what happened

00:21:33.620 five pages ago or whatever and so yeah yeah that is something that when i'm writing i want to make

00:21:41.080 sure that i'm like treating the reader with like that level of respect for their intelligence

00:21:45.400 yeah yeah yeah yeah no and one of the things i really like about your books is that like the

00:21:50.300 themes are there with like the vibes as we say but they're there in a way that like i fit i'm not

00:21:55.520 necessarily like underlining a sentence and being like wow the present right like it's more like I

00:22:02.580 finish the book and then I go on a walk with my dogs and I'm like like these ideas are percolating

00:22:08.920 and that's really nuanced right like that that takes like a lot of skill and I think that's why

00:22:14.140 people return to your books like regardless of the time period again and again well I mean I hope so

00:22:20.740 right like that's that's like that's my long game here yeah what's your relationship like with your

00:22:26.100 editor everyone's is so different and I think sometimes people have this like really like

00:22:30.220 romanticized understanding of how writers work with editors where they're like going back and

00:22:34.600 like constant communication but do you think of it as more like refining does did they flag things

00:22:41.300 that you haven't thought about how would you describe it when I have written a book that I've

00:22:47.180 that's like good you know like when I'm in an ideal world I can give this like a good book to

00:22:53.460 my a b plus book to the editor and then she will find the things that will help it go to the next

00:23:00.980 level but sometimes I hand a book to the editor like I'm dropping my car off at the mechanic and

00:23:06.440 just being like it's going clack clack clack clack you know what I mean like an I don't know I don't

00:23:10.020 know you know yeah and like and it's fun being able like that editors can do both you know like

00:23:16.120 it's like the most recent book that I turned in is like very much like a like it's just making a

00:23:21.240 funny noise I don't know it's here's a car shape it's called you know a car shape um and I think

00:23:28.320 that's like that winds up being rewarding for both of us because like we've taken this like

00:23:33.560 lump of trash and we have like made it into a story um this is my third editor that I've worked

00:23:40.800 worth not counting like I worked with independent editors for um like books that I've self-published

00:23:47.460 right um but I am I have had the phone call that's like I kind of think that you've got to

00:23:54.540 like delete this much more gently and I've had the phone call that's like well what did you think you

00:24:03.920 were accomplishing here you know what I mean like and and like that's actually great you know what

00:24:08.820 I mean, like, I am so glad that they are able, that they will stop me.

00:24:12.500 They are not going to let me publish something bad.

00:24:16.860 And that is a relief.

00:24:18.760 And also, sometimes when you are forced to say what you thought you were accomplishing,

00:24:23.600 then you get clarity about what you should actually be writing instead of what you wrote.

00:24:28.460 I'm always like, Carl, like, that is not your business or my business.

00:24:34.060 I always tell people about editing, like, when you first get your edits back,

00:24:38.820 you need to let you look at them and then you need to walk away and just like you can like go

00:24:43.880 you're like how dare they right and then like 12 hours later you're like yeah okay 12 hours later

00:24:49.880 it's like you're a genius I know you're a genius you have blessed me and my manuscript like with 1.00

00:24:56.320 this you know but yeah at first you're like you suck I suck we're never talking again you know 0.96

00:25:01.760 exactly yeah it's like I have been really lucky to work with editors who are able to perceive 0.98

00:25:09.900 my vision even when I do not perceive my vision like with this most recent one my editor was like

00:25:16.700 pointed something out to me that had just been a background fact which winds up definitely being

00:25:21.660 like one of the like key key parts of the story and like I just didn't notice like I put it there

00:25:27.680 Like with my little fingers and didn't realize that I was doing something and she found it.

00:25:33.400 And that's like, that's so cool, you know, that we get to do that.

00:25:36.440 Now listeners can try to figure out what that is in hindsight once they listen to this episode.

00:25:41.120 And if we've done our job even remotely well, they will not find it.

00:25:45.060 You won't be able to find it.

00:25:46.700 Okay, next question comes from Sarah.

00:25:49.320 Kat Sebastian, you write historicals in a lot of time periods.

00:25:53.120 Post-World War II, Regency, 1960s.

00:25:56.440 what makes a time period right for mm romance are there any time periods you've tried but they just

00:26:01.760 didn't work oh that's a good one so for me like the most important thing when I'm picking a

00:26:07.080 setting is that I have to be into it like I have to like I have to like that's it um because my

00:26:13.640 boredom threshold is quite low so if I'm going to research if I'm going to be writing a book

00:26:20.720 for a long period of time there has to be enough in that that time period that setting for me to

00:26:25.480 really sink my teeth into yeah otherwise that book is simply never getting written with a few

00:26:30.280 exceptions like every now and then I'm like I can write a medieval and then I remember I'm like so

00:26:34.000 ignorant about about like that like like absolutely not that is for other people to do and then 1.00

00:26:39.000 there's a couple where it's just not my lane like I don't think the world needs um a like white 1.00

00:26:44.140 woman to be writing about like uh the like west in the 1860s or whatever like we don't need that 1.00

00:26:53.940 Someone else can write that, you know, and I don't think I'd write a book that in the

00:26:58.920 middle of the AIDS crisis, that just feels like not my lane.

00:27:03.640 But I haven't actually tried to write a book in a period and then have it not work out

00:27:10.320 because of time period's fault.

00:27:12.100 I can't blame the time period for anything that hasn't worked out.

00:27:16.640 One thing I was thinking about, the most too recent of yours that I've read are We Could

00:27:20.900 be so good and uh hither page and both of them are in these really interesting moments of like

00:27:27.360 masculinity post-war where there is some like supposedly everything is fixed but it's actually

00:27:33.680 very fluid trying to figure out like how do we define what manhood is there's a character in

00:27:39.240 hither page that was a deserter but like what does that actually mean like how do we define what good

00:27:45.460 manhood looks like it's just really interesting there's so much to play with there yeah especially

00:27:50.320 like um i don't know if you've read um alan barabay is coming out under fire but like during

00:27:55.380 world war ii in particular you have this like loosening of standards when it comes to like

00:28:02.200 people maybe looked the other way you know yeah um yeah and then afterwards there's this like

00:28:09.840 really sad constriction like in the u.s you have um you have like this whole like you know you have

00:28:16.540 McCarthyism you have the lavender scare and you have this like tightening of what it means to

00:28:21.080 what it means to be a man what it means to be a woman you have this like like really like this

00:28:25.860 solidifying this like temporary okay like solidifying of like gender role yep total

00:28:31.960 backlash if you think about it right yeah that's very like poisonous and I think that like that it

00:28:38.440 takes its toll like certainly and I think that we can all relate to how that would how that would do

00:28:42.740 it and that does that is something that interests me like when we like when all of when not i don't

00:28:46.880 say all of a sudden but like when sort of the knot tightens you know yeah and also like i like the

00:28:52.720 other end of it too like where all of a sudden the knot loosens like what does that mean like when

00:28:57.540 you i'm so used to these are the rules i'm following the rules you know like all of a sudden

00:29:03.080 there's like a new vista of possibility that has to be terrifying also yep i think about this all

00:29:08.960 the time actually when it comes to like celebrity especially male celebrities and and being out

00:29:13.940 how does someone like let's say like Ricky Martin right who became a celebrity and like whose image

00:29:19.980 was really fixed around performance of masculinity but also was at least technically in the closet

00:29:26.280 right like as time passes how do you how do you shift your identity to include more of that but

00:29:33.520 also you're so acclimated to performing self as a closeted person like that 2000 would be an

00:29:41.540 interesting time to yeah yes um and like at that whole like 2000 2005 period where like yeah that's

00:29:49.960 like because also this is like the peak of like gawker stalker era yep right yep you know and so

00:29:57.020 So there's this like, and yet it's before social media, basically, basically, right?

00:30:02.020 And like Perez Hilton outing Lance Bass because he and his reality star boyfriend were wearing the same clothes, like we're sharing clothes.

00:30:11.000 And then that forces Lance Bass to go on the cover of People Magazine and be like, I'm gay.

00:30:16.060 Right. But as you said, before social media, really interesting fraud time.

00:30:19.700 So like celebrities don't have their own platform, really.

00:30:22.700 Yeah.

00:30:23.240 Yeah.

00:30:23.420 Yes, that needs to be like, I've read a couple of historical, you know, some historical fiction set in that time period. But like, I am, I feel like the cryptkeeper when I think about writing, you know, like.

00:30:39.100 It's also just a difficult time for me personally. Like, it's kind of like why I don't like, like, flare jeans, you know?

00:30:45.200 Uh-huh. Yes. Like, this is like where it's, um, my.

00:30:49.940 Like, I don't want to go back there.

00:30:51.060 No. First of all, I wore those pants when I was a grown-up with a graduate degree.

00:30:57.480 I know. Same.

00:30:58.900 I was looking at my daughter's pants. I was like, those could be my pants. Those could be the pants

00:31:05.340 that I wore. No, I will not borrow them. Okay. This is a good tee-up for our next question.

00:31:14.640 Well, it's an okay tee-up. It's a solid tee-up for our next question, which is from Camilla.

00:31:19.580 I am an avid reader of queer historicals, and I'm curious about the dynamic of fantasizing about queer happy endings in historical settings where danger to queer people is often present, especially in the context of today's rising hostility to queerness.

00:31:36.060 I think a lot about the role of stakes in romance, specifically the balance between external constraints and internal emotional barriers to the romance, and how the fantasy of overcoming or resolving these stakes is a big part of what makes romance impactful.

00:31:52.520 In a time when so many queer and trans folks are facing down threats to our civic, existential, and physical safety, what can the fantasy of a queer historical HEA offer? 0.67

00:32:03.760 Or, in other words, why is it so comforting, even thrilling, to read about queer romance in the past? 0.96

00:32:11.020 Is it the erotics of the closet, secrecy as titillating, or something more nuanced?

00:32:16.960 I would love to hear your and Kat's thoughts.

00:32:19.200 So much good stuff here.

00:32:20.760 this is a classic culture study reader question um i love that i really everything about that

00:32:25.280 where does it take you i like i think a lot about like one thing that comes that

00:32:29.600 okay so like when i started writing like 2015 like i like genuinely believed like we were

00:32:35.260 leaving homophobia like in their rearview mirror okay and like yeah and like the current tide of

00:32:41.000 like anti-trans bigot bigotry like hadn't really started in the u.s okay yep and like that's that's

00:32:47.620 like blindingly naive. But one thing that I think about a lot is that like marginalized people have

00:32:55.540 always managed to find like joy and love and community. And doing that is like a strike

00:33:06.460 against oppression. Oppression works best when the people you're trying to oppress don't have

00:33:12.660 joy and love and community fascism requires fear right it requires despair and so i think the 0.85

00:33:22.660 comfort is knowing that queer people did this before and will keep doing it but also knowing 0.97

00:33:30.380 that that the act of finding happiness in whatever form that takes is a strike against 0.93

00:33:42.120 the forces that don't want you to have it. I think so. I think it's those two forces working

00:33:46.200 together. Yep. I like some part of fascism to me is like, how dare people who aren't exactly like

00:33:53.160 me be happy? Yes. Yes. Right. Like that is like, and you can see it, especially when you look at

00:33:58.460 what people are saying about like what, what people are saying right now about trans people

00:34:04.880 and immigrants. Okay. Like overlaps there. Like if a writer did that, they would say that it was

00:34:09.660 like too on the nose you know um and it's very similar to what was said um during the civil

00:34:14.800 rights movement and also about gay people and you know like in the early days of um gay liberation

00:34:21.260 and like that's not a coincidence it's because fascism has one language like that's it like

00:34:26.780 fascism is has like has one selling point and it's like we don't want these people to be happy

00:34:31.260 what about the part of the question talking about the erotics of the closet and just like

00:34:35.660 constraints right because I think that that in a lot of romances right like that's the the

00:34:41.800 narrative tension oh yeah and and you see it also I think to some extent in like class difference

00:34:48.760 romances right and also interracial historical romances I've seen it um so how do you think

00:34:55.800 about that oh yeah I think that like I think that I mean for me as a writer how are we going to do

00:35:01.820 this when the world doesn't want us to do it it is sometimes the only external conflict that i need

00:35:10.140 right like i can make the rest of it internal conflict and i think that like there are many

00:35:15.260 writers who constructed narratives that are like much more based on i like the the erotics of the

00:35:21.560 closet like that's like that's um that's something that i tried to step away from personally mostly

00:35:28.200 because it stresses me out you know yeah yeah like I can't write a book that's gonna like send

00:35:33.420 me into bits like every time I open the manuscript but I think that all I think that all works

00:35:41.220 together I think that often it's like the secrecy is what's getting you in the door that's what's

00:35:45.940 getting you to that's what's getting the book onto the shelves that's what's getting you to

00:35:49.820 open the book but like that's not going to be enough to sustain the book like you've got to

00:35:54.920 have other stuff going on too. Yeah, absolutely. The Culture Study podcast is sponsored by Z

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00:38:11.820 Today's episode is sponsored by Jones Road Beauty. All right. I've been using Jones Road

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00:39:55.440 Next question comes from Julie, and it's about queer romances more broadly and allows us to talk.

00:40:00.800 You know, we didn't do the like very typical like, why do women write male-male romances?

00:40:06.440 like oh my gosh there are so many there are many things that have been written about this we talked

00:40:11.520 about i talked about it and like he did rivalry stuff like every art every smart article has

00:40:17.100 traced this history we don't need to talk about this explicitly but we do need to talk about

00:40:21.920 lesbian romance so this question comes from julie i would love a discussion about lesbian versus gay

00:40:28.200 queer romance why even as a gay woman does lesbian romance not feel as intense or well-written as

00:40:35.000 queer men. The best sex scenes I read last year for two women was The Safe Keep, and that's an 0.95

00:40:40.500 intense post-World War II novel. I'm sure some of this is personal preference, but it comes up

00:40:46.680 often at book club and with my queer female and non-binary friends. Thoughts? Have you read The

00:40:52.680 Safe Keep? The Safe Keep is great. I loved it. Yeah. I know, me too. I was like, this is really

00:40:58.060 hot. I actually also was completely... It's one of those books where I just thought about it

00:41:01.760 nonstop for like weeks after reading it and like wanted to like go and like gently place it beneath

00:41:08.600 the pillow of like everyone I knew you know I kind of did that I did that I wrote like a whole 0.91

00:41:13.720 newsletter about it that was like this is gonna fucking blow your mind like it's so definitely

00:41:18.580 done I love it yes um and also I think revises a period in history that I think a lot of people 0.91

00:41:26.880 have a very neat narrative about in terms of what was happening with how Jewish people were

00:41:33.540 reincorporated into daily life after the Holocaust. And every single aspect of that book

00:41:40.120 is layered and messy. And like, you just love, you love to see it, right? Like it was just like

00:41:46.340 such, yes, underneath everyone's pillow. Okay. So here's, here's like, I get this question all

00:41:52.440 the time okay like this is like and what i generally say is like this is this is my theory

00:41:56.680 i've been there okay my theory is that like this is an issue on the reader end all right like we

00:42:03.120 are all swimming in a sea of patriarchy and we're used to seeing men as main characters and it would

00:42:09.480 take a yep of psychiatrists and like an exorcist to undo all of that okay and i don't know what to

00:42:18.860 do about that right like it's i think that we are in a place where we're seeing so much more

00:42:25.400 super hot lesbian romance and that's like the progress i personally want to see in the world

00:42:30.560 you know um yeah this is like where i plug anna cowan's the duke which is coming out really really

00:42:37.060 soon if it hasn't come it takes place like in french revolution and right after the french

00:42:43.480 revolution in an alternate england where women can inherit titles and and like so the duke is a

00:42:53.100 woman okay yes yes and the duke is also the worst person you're ever going to meet like which is

00:43:01.460 like borrowing from the tradition of like men men dukes were the worst person you're ever gonna

00:43:06.660 okay and so just truly terrible complete with the daddy issues and all of that you know um

00:43:14.240 and like so hot like I genuinely couldn't believe Anna Cohen is actually a gem okay um this is

00:43:21.200 basically like it's being treated like a debut because it basically is but she wrote a book

00:43:26.420 god like 15 years ago um about a duke who cross-dressed and like wound up stacking up

00:43:33.100 with a pig farmer and it was like this like to publish that in like 2012 or whatever 2012 when

00:43:39.620 it was like the law to be like doing like bridgerton okay right you know like she broke the

00:43:45.620 law for us i i love this idea too because it takes like a almost like this imaginary or like

00:43:53.500 other timeline england to allow a female character to have like the expansiveness of character right

00:44:01.760 because the ways you could be a woman were so limited yeah and like the way i always see it

00:44:08.500 is like oh this one's spunky right and i'm like like this doesn't do anything for me like oh she

00:44:14.140 reads more books no than this other one who also read books or like she goes around and visits the 0.99

00:44:20.160 people the different farmers on the estate not interesting like it's just a horrible asshole 1.00

00:44:28.280 okay i love it like god like populate all of my books with women who are horrible assholes okay 0.99

00:44:35.400 like i will pay full resale praise um i think like but i think that there's another thing going on 0.97

00:44:41.040 when it comes to gender that you like sort of got out there okay when i started writing there were

00:44:48.200 quite a few other writers of like mm romance who were using at the time like see her pronouns

00:44:57.600 And then a few years later, they were using they-them pronouns and now they're using he-him pronouns. And like there is something about reading about queer men that I think is a way to explore the parts of gender and the parts of being a person, okay, that are not usually allowed in narratives about women.

00:45:27.600 And obviously there's like a, there, like you and I could spend, we could filibuster on like

00:45:33.420 exceptions to that. You know what I mean? But it is, we're used to the patterns that we see.

00:45:38.700 For me, when I write about women, there is something vaguely dysmorphic about it. And 1.00

00:45:42.940 like, I don't know what's going on. And I have decided that I will leave that for the afterlife.

00:45:47.200 Okay. I don't know what it is.

00:45:53.020 No, that's so interesting, but I get it. 1.00

00:45:55.840 And I realized that I can make, I could write the asshole women. 1.00

00:45:58.920 Like I could do that. 1.00

00:46:00.120 And instead I'm not.

00:46:01.420 And it's like, it feels very uncomfortable.

00:46:04.500 And I'm saying that as someone who doesn't have like, I don't have like a deep relationship

00:46:08.180 with like being a woman in quotation marks.

00:46:10.500 You know what I mean?

00:46:11.100 Yeah. 0.99

00:46:11.320 But like, I feel like if I'm writing a woman, like I've got to commit to that. 1.00

00:46:15.500 Like, what am I, you know what I mean? 1.00

00:46:16.620 Like, and it's instead I will simply not, I will just not do that.

00:46:20.960 I will leave that rock unturned.

00:46:22.840 This makes me think of a couple of things. And the first is that, like, I think the dominant narrative explanation for female fandom of MM romance is that, like, it allows women to see men as more vulnerable. Right. And that, like, I get it. Right. And I think that is a huge part of especially like the recent heated rivalry fandom.

00:46:43.900 Yeah. But I also think like hearing you describe this, it reminds me to like this is pretty Freudian, but like a desire for the phallus to have to like embody this moment, like these positions of power and to identify with these positions of power that are often withheld from us because we are not like our sex organs do not match the sex organs.

00:47:06.780 And you can see that in a lot of the way that, like, especially, like, with the, like, heated revelry has been, like, a craft course in, like, how people will recreate gender roles even when you're given, like, a story about two men.

00:47:21.800 Like, it is.

00:47:22.040 Totally.

00:47:22.560 Like, I'm like, wow.

00:47:24.160 Like, I got to see it in real time.

00:47:26.320 I can't.

00:47:26.600 It's like watching a star be born, you know?

00:47:28.780 Like, except I didn't want to see that, you know?

00:47:33.560 and and that's so interesting too how they are trying to force this onto the actors who play

00:47:39.740 these characters literally it's stars being born yes like they're trying to force this

00:47:46.300 understanding of like gender dynamics onto their stars yes so interesting and when those stars

00:47:53.580 step back it is perceived as like a like a violation like there's something going on where

00:48:00.680 they broke the rule, they broke the contract. I'm not used to seeing men treating them like that.

00:48:07.340 And it's, um, and you know, like I'm not on social media right now. So anything that like

00:48:13.200 finds its way to me is either something one of my kids sends me or it is on Tumblr, which I don't

00:48:17.920 even count as social media, you know, like, um, and like, and still I'm seeing this unfold and

00:48:23.900 And it is, like, it could be 2007 and I'm watching this happen to Benedict Cumberbatch, okay?

00:48:32.580 It is, like, you know, it is not great.

00:48:37.020 But it is fascinating to see it happen.

00:48:40.280 Yeah, for sure.

00:48:41.200 And I think, like, hopefully it leads to not replicas of this, right?

00:48:47.460 Like, I think this is, like, the very, like, painfully obvious future is, like, a bunch of heated rivalry knockoffs instead of, like, how can we explore different dynamics that are also titillating and beautiful and interesting and undergirded by this very Canadian ethos that is, I think, at the heart of a lot of it.

00:49:09.560 Because, like, I was the last person in the world, actually, to watch He Did Rivalry because I was really, like, that was, like, my emotional support novel through, like, many mental health episodes.

00:49:19.520 And so I was so worried I was going to watch it and then, like, have to go get a new mental.

00:49:23.660 Like, they don't just grow on trees, like, emotional support novels.

00:49:27.640 And so, like, what was I going to do?

00:49:29.740 And so I watched it.

00:49:31.020 Last week, I fell down the stairs and cracked some ribs.

00:49:34.420 And it's, like, best possible outcome to that particular fall was if you cracked ribs.

00:49:39.000 and so like all right so anyway I was stuck on the couch and so I was like we're gonna do it like

00:49:42.680 we're pulling the trigger like we're gonna watch okay like so like several hours later like I

00:49:47.500 emerged from my feet and I'm like Academy Awards like art okay you know and like the thing that

00:49:54.380 makes it the thing that makes it so good okay is that it's a big swing okay like nobody was pulling

00:50:01.880 back no one's being cute everyone is serious everyone like is giving it their all and no one

00:50:08.540 is pulling punches and that is the lesson that no one will take from no one nobody okay and 0.85

00:50:14.840 instead we're gonna get wishy-washy and watered down oh I hate you I hate you too you know like

00:50:22.500 and it's and that will be um like we could have had good things you know

00:50:28.300 no I love that and also you're I so you watched it like last week I literally finished it like

00:50:35.740 this morning okay literally and i got to the end and i was like i was like you guys like we did it

00:50:43.900 like what did we do you were at the you were at the cottage this morning that's crazy

00:50:49.680 okay speaking of happy endings this is a great team for our final question

00:50:56.940 comes from jenna when you allow characters like andy and nick and eddie and mark to be

00:51:02.960 deeply loved and fulfilled in worlds that historically denied them that, what does that

00:51:08.580 act of storytelling feel like to you? And has writing those lives changed the way you see

00:51:14.680 queer history or even the emotional inheritance queer readers carry to date? 0.55

00:51:20.500 I love emotional inheritance. I love that because there's some queer identities,

00:51:26.860 like you know some identities you inherit right and queerness isn't linear or whatever you know 0.98

00:51:35.460 what I mean like you don't like you aren't I mean like generally speaking you're not inheriting it 0.70

00:51:40.940 and like the way that we pass down queer history is through storytelling one thing that like I often 0.67

00:51:47.460 am like really conscious when I'm writing about but like okay like I know I've stacked the decks

00:51:51.780 right like I've stacked the decks in the favor of these guys and there are people who had the deck

00:51:56.220 stacked against them, right? But I feel like I get to shine a light on the best case scenario.

00:52:06.860 Yeah. And people did have that. And that feels good. I love that. Have you heard from any readers

00:52:12.800 about how these stories have resonated with them or what it's meant to them to have lives

00:52:20.500 represented in this way? Yeah. I mean, the best emails I get are from people who lived through

00:52:26.060 um whatever period I'm writing about like that's like oh I mean like yeah even when they're like

00:52:31.280 I got the best email which was somebody who was like who's like telling me how much like you know

00:52:36.320 this resonates with me and they're like those characters would not have flown on Pan Am it

00:52:40.480 would have been TWA and I was like oh my god you're right but like I just picked Pan Am I

00:52:46.920 thought it would be I didn't know if people would know what TWA was you know but it's like oh god

00:52:54.020 like that's what a gift right like when people tell me that they live through that era or like

00:52:58.280 I was a kid during that era or like you know like that is awesome like I love it my absolute

00:53:04.780 favorite and also the other kind of email I really love to I love all the emails I get even though my

00:53:10.700 my inbox is terrible and I don't always respond um like I was talking about heated rivalry being

00:53:15.760 my like emotional support book like when someone tells me like I've read this book like six times

00:53:20.340 you know like I'm like I feel like I am a health care practitioner you know what I mean like I

00:53:25.320 feel like I feel like I arrived in the ambulance and saved your life like I feel so good about that

00:53:31.040 you know yeah and that's I think that like any writer that's any writer's favorite thing to hear

00:53:36.440 you know yeah well and I think this also means that when we're like 60 then we're going to be

00:53:44.580 prepared to read about 2005. Okay, I will say some of the emails I've gotten are not, they're

00:53:53.400 not looking back fondly. Some of them are like, I don't know how I feel about the fact that you're

00:53:59.240 writing about this. And I'm like, me neither. So I've seen some of your Hall of Fame queer

00:54:04.600 romance recommendations, but I feel like I love that you told us about the new one's called The

00:54:09.880 duke right yeah yeah okay anna cowan c-o-w-a-n amazing yeah if people have exhausted your

00:54:17.640 catalog what do you point them towards okay um tj alexander um they have a gentleman's gentleman

00:54:25.080 which is mm one of the characters is a trans man regency strong fairy tale energy a romp okay

00:54:35.500 like I really like it was just a pleasure I'm currently reading uh when the when the tides

00:54:42.160 held the moon by Vanessa Vita Kelly and it is 1910's Coney Island sideshow merman okay I feel

00:54:49.460 like anyone needs to know like I like I just I just started it like yesterday and I haven't gotten

00:54:54.340 far because I'm doing a panel with Vanessa at some point soonish and I was I always like to

00:55:00.300 if I'm doing a panel with somebody I like to read at least one of their books I'm like

00:55:03.000 this is like lovely um oh and adriana herrera an island princess starts a scandal uh

00:55:10.320 lesbian late 1800s really strong sarah mcclain energy do you have any recs for me i want like

00:55:19.320 i'm obsessed with classic hollywood and there's so many great stories of like what did and didn't

00:55:25.940 happen and all the scandal rags had like so much good stuff and i loved like there were words that

00:55:30.980 they use this is something if you ever want to write a 1940s like there were specific words in

00:55:35.320 the gossip columns that they would use to deduce like who was actually there as a date and who was

00:55:41.120 there as a friend and that sort of thing um and there's a great biography of a gay columnist named

00:55:47.160 mike connelly who's the gossip columnist for the hollywood reporter and like all the ways that he

00:55:52.600 was hinting at this to an audience that was in the know interesting but are there any other

00:55:59.880 mmrex specifically from classic hollywood that you can think of i am drawing a blank and that

00:56:07.600 makes me feel like it's not there because i think that the channels would have gotten that book to

00:56:12.760 me personally if it existed right that said i would love to be wrong like what i hope is that

00:56:19.340 you now have like exactly notifications on social media or whatever about the book that's going to

00:56:25.880 change our lives yes i would love that um i want like a rock hudson type that falls in love with

00:56:33.660 a carrie grant type like it's not too much to ask okay no no just like incredible pants wearing um

00:56:40.900 they both were great you know what that is true not enough people are talking about that

00:56:47.160 so you're not on social media right now but where do you direct people to just find like

00:56:53.300 the cornucopia of your of your works so just to your website my website my newsletter I send it

00:57:00.380 out once a month when I remember okay and like I do I make sure I include like book recommendations

00:57:08.200 and like it's not just promo um I would I mean like my newsletter like given that the best

00:57:15.460 newsletter in the world it's like you still have to like think about whether you're really going

00:57:19.380 to click on it right i think when you're at least doesn't happen often okay yeah

00:57:23.220 love it it's perfect it's a great recommendation

00:57:29.360 and one more time so everyone remembers the book title and blurb is starshipped and it is sci-fi

00:57:41.600 show actors who hate one another who decide to pretend to be friends i i also love all the ways

00:57:48.200 that you describe your books, like on your website, you have like the best little blurbs

00:57:53.800 that actually make me want to read the book instead of like, I don't know, you know how

00:57:57.500 like they use oftentimes blurbs use the same formula of like a duke dot, dot, dot, who

00:58:03.280 doesn't know what he wants, like that sort of thing.

00:58:05.540 Yours are exquisite.

00:58:07.960 Oh, yeah.

00:58:08.260 Like I'm marketing my books to people who are on Tumblr in 2012.

00:58:11.940 That's like, like, that's my audience.

00:58:13.900 Like no one wants to talk about that.

00:58:15.580 No one wants to acknowledge it.

00:58:17.060 Okay.

00:58:17.340 But like, yeah, this was such a joy.

00:58:24.560 Thank you so much for joining me.

00:58:26.200 Thank you.

00:58:26.880 Thank you.

00:58:31.740 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.

00:58:34.020 Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts because we have so many great episodes

00:58:38.400 in the works and I promise you don't want to miss any of them.

00:58:41.720 If you want to suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that surrounds you or submit

00:58:45.900 a question for our subscriber only advice time segment, go to our Google form at tinyurl.com

00:58:52.460 slash culture study pod, or check the show notes for a link. And if you want to support the show

00:58:57.040 and get bonus content, head to patreon.com slash culture study. It's five bucks a month or $50 a

00:59:04.100 year, and you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive advice time segment and weekly discussion threads

00:59:09.020 for each episode. The culture study podcast is produced by me and Helen Peterson and Melody

00:59:14.420 Rowell. Our music is by Poddington Bear. You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson,

00:59:19.980 Melody at Melodias47, and the show at Culture Study Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - March 04, 2026

Just Trust Us on This Queer Historical Romance Ep, It Rules

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