Culture Study Podcast - Let's Unpack Some Intensive Parenting Trends (In a Way That Will Not Make You Feel Like Crap)

00:00:00.000 there is so much anxiety right now, so much fear. It's not our fault. We are being fed all these

00:00:08.540 fear-based messages about parenting, whether it's social media is going to cause our kids

00:00:14.480 to become murderers, or nobody can get into college anymore, and my kid is going to end up

00:00:21.040 on the street. It's coming at us from every possible direction. And we know that mom anxiety

00:00:28.820 is at an all-time high right now. So it's like even if you argue that like things aren't that

00:00:34.040 bad right now compared with generations past, the fact is parents are hyper anxious right now.

00:00:39.340 Right. And the thing that I always come across is this feeling that like

00:00:42.600 there is no way to do it right. There's so much messaging about like parents are too up in their

00:00:50.340 kids business. They're doing too much. Like stop parenting so much. But then at the same time,

00:00:55.820 if you take your foot off the gas, there's so many messages telling you that that is also bad

00:01:02.000 parenting. Right. So like everything is bad parenting. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's like it's

00:01:07.940 impossible, I think, to be a parent right now because, yeah, the minute you try to sort of

00:01:12.580 challenge any of the norms and other parents are judging you, you know, sometimes like maybe the

00:01:17.660 cops will be called because your kid is in the park alone. Like there's all these forces that

00:01:21.880 working against you trying to push against some of the norms that you might think are not necessary

00:01:27.600 or particularly helpful. And so it's like, we're just stuck in this cycle of not being able to get

00:01:35.880 out of the sort of over-parenting hamster cycle, even if we want to. Hi, everyone. This is the

00:01:47.780 Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. I'm Melinda Wenner-Moyer, and I am

00:01:52.880 the author of Hello, Cruel World, Science-Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying

00:01:58.900 Times. How did you get started thinking about parenting? It's like, you did not conceive of

00:02:04.440 yourself as a parenting journalist. No. Yeah, no. For a long time, I was like a straight

00:02:10.300 science journalist. I have a degree in cell and molecular biology. I was writing about

00:02:14.420 immunology and genetics and all these like super nerdy things. And then I had a kid. And I was

00:02:20.460 like, Oh, there are so many. I have so many questions. And I don't know how to answer them.

00:02:26.380 And I would go on Google and like everything would conflict. And I basically said, I wonder

00:02:30.220 if science can help me like I wonder if science can make me a better parent. So I started writing

00:02:34.520 a column for slate that was like a science based parenting column. It was their first parenting

00:02:39.280 column. And then, um, I still kind of resisted. I was like, I'm not a parenting writer. And I

00:02:45.140 think part of that was also like, there's a sort of sexism, like you're taken seriously if you're

00:02:49.440 a science journalist and you're writing for like scientific American and stuff. And then the minute

00:02:54.400 you're like, Oh, I write about parenting. It's like, Oh, now you're a mommy blogger and you know,

00:02:58.560 you're not taken seriously. So I really resisted for a while. And then, and then basically I think

00:03:04.480 Trump was elected and I was like, okay, we need, like, I want to write more about both

00:03:09.300 how we can raise good kids who can like change the world. And also I wanted to push against the like

00:03:15.220 anti-scientific fear mongering messaging that we get all the time as parents. And so I also

00:03:22.840 started a sub stack. Now what that tries to bring science and nuance to parenting advice and like

00:03:27.640 push back against these harmful narratives. I think some people are, even if they don't know

00:03:32.380 your name they're maybe familiar with the concept of like how do we not raise kids that are assholes 1.00

00:03:38.320 and like even that idea right acknowledging that like sometimes your kid is an asshole 0.99

00:03:43.580 uh i think is still very much part of like a contemporary wave of parenting that like 0.97

00:03:50.840 kids aren't angels right they are they are human beings in the process of becoming

00:03:56.920 and sometimes like it's really really hard to be their parents yeah it is yeah no I mean I always 0.92

00:04:03.980 joke that my book title is it's not how to raise kids who aren't assholes as kids it's how to raise 0.99

00:04:09.440 kids who don't who aren't assholes as adults because all kids are assholes like it's just 0.99

00:04:14.560 I mean they have to be like they don't know social norms they don't know etiquette yet they have to 0.99

00:04:18.820 learn it by making the mistakes their brains are not fully formed like impulse control it doesn't

00:04:24.220 fully develop until like age 25. There are, you know, there are all these reasons why kids act

00:04:30.120 like assholes. And it's, it's, yeah, it's really hard to be a parent. So I think I also really 0.99

00:04:36.100 work to normalize like the difficulty of being a parent, especially a mom right now. And like,

00:04:41.480 you know, acknowledging and sort of picking apart all the pressures that are on moms that are

00:04:45.300 unreasonable and sexist and, you know, everything. Yeah. Like we can't do it all, but we're excited

00:04:51.560 to do it all uh yeah no it's it's hard to be a parent it is so i feel like we could do 800

00:04:57.980 episodes on this topic and we got at least 800 questions but we wanted to pick questions that

00:05:02.940 were pretty broad and that would allow us to go to a lot of different places and then for the ask

00:05:08.440 and anything segment at the end we're going to paywall that we're going to go deep on something

00:05:12.500 that we got so many questions about and that's kids sports like i would say half the questions

00:05:19.080 had something to do with kid sports. So our first question is going to start us more on a

00:05:23.860 philosophical note. This comes from Meredith. What even is a good parent anymore? I feel a pull

00:05:29.720 towards a return to a more unscheduled, laid-back approach to parenting, while also feeling the

00:05:35.980 pressure to micromanage and overschedule both my kids, ages seven and two. I try to maintain the

00:05:43.120 maxim that the less stressed and calmer I am, the better mother I am, but I still can't shake the

00:05:49.720 feeling that I should be doing more exclamation point. As context, I am a white married cishet

00:05:56.840 woman. I work outside the home 25 to 40 hours a week, depending on my workload and generally

00:06:03.320 shoulder the majority of home management tasks and family mental load. So, I mean, this is it,

00:06:09.760 right? Like this is this is the heart of it. And I think that this idea of like, parenting is always

00:06:15.880 more is really interesting. And I know, you know, all the data about how like, when women started

00:06:23.780 going into the paid workforce, or when more women, significantly more women started going into the

00:06:28.880 paid workforce, their parenting hours actually increased. Yep. No, it's, it's, it's totally 1.00

00:06:35.420 crazy. Yeah. I mean, I also just like want to highlight her kids are seven and two and she's

00:06:39.880 already feeling this pressure to schedule her kids, you know, like two year olds, right? Like

00:06:44.760 what is going on? And, but I completely empathize with her because I feel it too. Like we all do.

00:06:51.420 So yeah, Meredith says like, I can't shake this feeling that I'm supposed to be doing more all

00:06:55.000 the time. And that's because that is what everything and everyone is telling her to do

00:06:59.820 and telling all of us to do. So intensive parenting, intensive mothering, whatever you

00:07:05.440 want to call it, is this this idea that we should be pouring as many resources as possible into

00:07:09.900 our kids development. This is now the norm and expectation among all social classes. So it used

00:07:17.280 to be that just among like upper middle class and upper class parents, there was this belief that

00:07:23.600 we should be putting, you know, putting as much money, as much time, as much effort into like

00:07:27.320 making sure our kids are optimized. Now, every social class believes that they should be doing

00:07:32.640 this. And this is, I mean, this is documented in the research. So it's pervasive. And I mean,

00:07:38.100 our rising economic inequality is making it worse. Because we know, again, from research that in

00:07:45.080 regions where there's more income inequality, privileged parents spend more money relatively

00:07:49.660 on their kids. So it's like, it's all, it's all rooted in this fear that if we don't go the extra

00:07:54.220 mile with our kids, they will not succeed, and they will have so far to fall. But I think what

00:08:00.460 one of like the central tension she's getting at here, too, is that like the cultural messages

00:08:04.180 we're getting about what good parenting is, are very different from what the research on parenting

00:08:10.380 and child outcomes tells us is good parenting. And so this is, this is why I do what I do,

00:08:16.280 because I'm like, okay, we're hearing all this, let me see what the research says, like, maybe

00:08:20.400 it's not as scary or as, you know, overwhelming as we think it is. And it often isn't because we

00:08:27.340 know that like overprotective, over-involved parenting, helicopter parenting, snowplow

00:08:32.320 parenting, whatever you want to call it, is actually not linked with child success or child

00:08:37.700 well-being. It's actually like the research suggests that the more overbearing parents are,

00:08:42.620 the less motivated their kids are, the less well they do in school. And that like there's also

00:08:47.320 really, really concerning research on academic pressure on kids and how closely tied that is

00:08:55.840 with poor mental health, with a higher risk for substance use. So all these things that we think

00:09:02.220 are really central to good parenting can actually backfire and not be good for kids and certainly

00:09:07.900 aren't good for us. And we know too, and we're going to get into sports and extracurriculars,

00:09:11.720 But like, we also know that once kids exceed about 10 hours a week of activities, the benefits

00:09:18.520 really kind of start to wane and then stress and fatigue and burnout start to matter.

00:09:23.020 So yeah, what we're being told to do is not actually like what's necessarily good for

00:09:27.160 our kids, definitely not good for us.

00:09:29.360 And I also think though, it's not just about like what our culture tells us to do.

00:09:32.780 It's about identity, like the identity of what it is to be a mom.

00:09:37.600 And I feel like-

00:09:38.720 Yep.

00:09:39.180 And a mama specifically. 1.00

00:09:40.720 A mama. Yes, exactly. A mama. Like to be a good mom, a mama is to be a woman who sacrifices

00:09:46.780 everything for her kids, who does the majority of the domestic labor, who never loses her temper, 0.79

00:09:52.300 you know, all these things that are actually totally impossible to all do.

00:09:55.980 And but when we don't measure up to these ideals, then we feel this sense of failure,

00:09:59.260 we feel this sense of shame. And it's, you know, this certainly doesn't serve us and it doesn't

00:10:04.160 benefit our kids. You know, who does it serve? I say it serves men. Like a mom guilt serves men.

00:10:10.240 and, you know, ensures that moms stay home and busy and taking care of their kids and 1.00

00:10:15.080 giving men more freedom and power. But maybe that's, maybe I'm launching it too.

00:10:19.160 No, no, I totally agree. More time to do high up leisure activities, like all sorts of things

00:10:24.680 and to pursue things that they think are interesting. You know, it's one of those

00:10:29.480 things that I think a lot of like feminist progressive women, it's like beauty standards, 1.00

00:10:34.240 right? You're like, I know, in my heart, that all of this is bullshit. And yet, all of this 0.99

00:10:40.860 ideological messaging still makes me like, like contradicts my, my cerebral understanding of like,

00:10:49.420 this is not good parenting. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, even if you know,

00:10:54.300 yeah, you know it in your brain. Yeah. But to actually accept it and do something different

00:10:59.220 is so hard. And I see it sometimes, like, when I talk to mom friends, and they give me advice,

00:11:04.040 They can give me the advice that's like, oh, it's totally fine for you to, you know, go off to do something without your kids and leave them home alone and like don't have any mom guilt.

00:11:12.360 And then when the situation is reversed, they're like, oh, my God, I can't do this thing.

00:11:16.720 I feel so much guilt.

00:11:17.660 And I'm like, wow, like they can, you know, they can recognize it and give the advice for other moms.

00:11:22.940 But when it comes to them, their standards for themselves are like way up here, you know, so much higher.

00:11:27.120 And it's so but it's so hard to do.

00:11:29.420 yeah it also strikes me that there's something um to do with just especially in our country like

00:11:36.080 we understand better as always additive like doing more something like exercise it's really

00:11:42.040 difficult to conceive of rest as part of exercise yeah as a necessary part of like building a

00:11:48.660 stronger body or being stronger just generally and so to understand part of good parenting as

00:11:55.280 doing less is a really difficult concept to get our heads around. Yeah, no, that's such a good

00:12:02.260 point. I mean, that just the way our culture works, like capitalism and our individualism,

00:12:08.140 like we think more is always better in every regard. And that is not true. It's just not true.

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00:15:31.640 Okay, our next question is something that I am so fascinated with.

00:15:34.800 So I cannot wait for us to unpack this more.

00:15:38.060 It's about a major buzzword in parenting.

00:15:41.700 Because I don't even know if it's like, I think it's a trend.

00:15:44.940 We'll see how you describe it.

00:15:46.540 Let's hear from Zoe and see if we can unpack it.

00:15:48.500 I'm curious about the origins and purported benefits of the type of language I associate with gentle parenting, or at least the parenting style I see practiced in the educated San Francisco circles that I travel in.

00:16:00.580 In my experience, beyond eschewing imperative statements and the word no, it seems to focus a lot on body awareness and whether things feel safe.

00:16:08.180 It also seems to really center the child and their experience and at times ignore the negative impact the child might have on other people.

00:16:14.160 An example, I was at a crowded party with kids and parents in a small backyard.

00:16:18.500 One little boy was kicking a soccer ball into the crowd. Instead of saying, don't do that,

00:16:22.780 you're going to annoy people, the boy's mother told him that what he was doing didn't feel safe.

00:16:26.900 It wasn't dangerous behavior, but it was annoying. Similarly, I was at the playground recently and

00:16:31.560 saw a kid hit his mom in the face with a toy, and she said, that doesn't feel good on my body.

00:16:36.500 Why not say, you're hurting me, or that's going to bother people? For what it's worth,

00:16:39.860 I have a three-year-old, and I think it's important to teach her that her actions can

00:16:43.000 impact others in a negative or positive way, and that her feelings aren't always the most

00:16:47.140 important thing. And I often feel a little unusual in that respect. Also, I just find this language

00:16:51.960 a bit weird and creepy. And so I would love to hear your and the guests thoughts. Okay, so we're

00:16:58.760 talking about gentle parenting discourse language, like some of this is explicitly gentle parenting,

00:17:04.520 some of it is kind of like, downstream from gentle parenting. Can you define it for us?

00:17:09.940 oh gosh you know the look on your face when i said that define it okay oh god you know i

00:17:18.540 uh i see so much variation when it comes to gentle parenting i mean i follow some gentle

00:17:26.360 parenting accounts and like it's all over the board i'm you know i know there was like

00:17:31.420 an original definition um i but i i don't think it's like one particular thing anymore um so

00:17:38.500 So that's, that's part of the, that's part of the problem. I think I, I mean,

00:17:43.320 this really like struck a chord for me and I cannot agree more with Zoe on, on how we should

00:17:50.360 be telling our kids like that's annoying behavior. So yeah, I sometimes think of gentle parenting

00:17:56.740 as like, you know, it's, it's not rooted in research. It's like rooted in like theory and

00:18:02.620 ideas. And I think sometimes it's rooted in like, what can make moms feel the most guilty and

00:18:06.620 stressed like because it does it does seemingly prioritize the child over everyone and everything

00:18:12.120 else and I do think that that's like a core part of it it's like ensuring that children are always

00:18:17.240 feeling safe and loved all the time like that's I guess how I would sort of define the the way

00:18:22.380 gentle parenting operates like it's really centered on like what can parents do to just

00:18:26.980 make children feel loved and valued and safe all the time and of course it is so important to make

00:18:32.440 sure our kids feel loved but I don't agree that we should you know ensure that our kids feel

00:18:37.500 comfortable all the time that we're safe particularly like we need it's actually

00:18:42.520 imperative for us to make sure our kids are feeling some of this like discomfort and unease

00:18:47.860 and like disappointment sadness all these negative feelings are so important for kids to experience

00:18:53.740 regularly in a safe environment because that's how they learn what feelings are and what they feel

00:18:58.700 like it's how they learn to recognize feelings in other people and become more compassionate

00:19:02.200 and it's how they learn coping skills that they'll use their whole lives to manage the

00:19:06.640 various feelings they're going to have. So as I was saying earlier, I'm really interested in what

00:19:11.660 we can do to raise compassionate and like kind and generous kids and also mentally healthy kids.

00:19:20.000 And I feel like with some of the gentle parenting messaging I get, it sort of implies that these

00:19:25.040 things are at odds. Like in order to preserve kids' mental health, you need to make sure they

00:19:30.240 never feel any guilt or never feel, you know, anything bad about their behavior. But that's,

00:19:36.240 that's not true. Well, and we're responsible for our actions, right? Like that's, that's how the

00:19:41.780 world works, right? And we need our kids to know that. So there's a really interesting area of

00:19:46.740 research that I feel like nobody talks about. It's from the 60s. It's a form of discipline

00:19:51.300 called inductive discipline. And I came across it when I was researching my first book, How to Raise

00:19:55.280 kids who aren't assholes and um there's a lot of research on it and it suggests that like one of

00:20:01.080 the most important things we can do to raise more compassionate kids is to directly tie their 0.72

00:20:07.780 choices and their actions to the effects that those choices and actions have on other people

00:20:12.640 especially on other people's feelings so it's like the difference between I mean you can do it in so

00:20:19.180 many ways but like for me it's like if I step on a lego that my kid has left on the floor I could

00:20:23.480 just say like, don't leave your Legos on the floor. But instead, it's like, okay, let's tie

00:20:29.340 their choice to leave the Legos on the floor with the outcome it led to, which is so you might say

00:20:34.240 like, please don't leave your Legos on the floor. I just stepped on one and it really hurt me.

00:20:38.720 Yeah. And I think gentle parenting people might say that's not okay, because you're making your

00:20:43.920 kid feel bad for something that they did. But there's a really big difference between guilt

00:20:48.960 and shame. And you want your kids to recognize that what they do every day, like the choices

00:20:54.820 they're making do have effects on others. And it's really funny, like I dug into this in my

00:21:00.640 sub stack once, like there, I came across a meme on Instagram that was like, you know, never tell

00:21:06.880 your kid that they're making you feel a certain way, because that is, you know, terrible parenting.

00:21:11.620 And I called up like five psychologists. And I was like, tell me, please, like, is this true?

00:21:17.880 and they were like oh my god no of course we should be telling like it is fine to tell your

00:21:23.020 kids that they're affecting you um you want to do it in a way that is not like shaming them for

00:21:28.660 their feelings or making them feel like they're responsible for your well-being but you can

00:21:33.320 absolutely and you should absolutely say like oh my you know your screaming is so loud it's hurting

00:21:38.020 my ears or you know um when you hit me it it hurts like that is totally okay to do um as long as

00:21:45.620 you're not doing it in, you know, a super shamey, angry, you know, way that's going to make them

00:21:49.900 feel like terrible people. Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is just a really big misconception that it's

00:21:56.280 bad to do this. It reminds me to have part of like the original sociological definition of

00:22:01.980 intensive parenting, one of the like many attributes, and we'll link to various resources

00:22:07.040 on this, but is that it's child centered. Yes. Like the parents rotate around the kid,

00:22:12.760 Like the child is the center of the universe, which is a significant shift from basically every other time in our like child rearing history. Right. And even like a very recent shift. And even, you know, like you, you pointed to the fact that now people of all different classes understand this type of parenting as ideal parenting. And as recent as like the 1980s and 1990s, like it's still like that hadn't affected all different classes yet.

00:22:39.800 Like it was still like, well, that's how rich people parent and that's bullshit. Right. But this idea that the child is at the center and that their emotions and safety and well-being should be preserved above all others. 0.99

00:22:53.820 and sometimes that means in practice that it's not just above their parents but above everyone

00:22:59.120 else in that crowd where like the ball was getting kicked into it and I think that that's part of what

00:23:04.900 strikes people as odd is just this idea like oh we're privileging this kid's needs above everything

00:23:10.540 else and that it tilts everyone's world in a way that I think can be really difficult and especially

00:23:17.720 difficult for people who aren't even raising kids right like at the heart of a lot of these

00:23:23.180 conversations of my mom friends never hang out with me anymore because I'm not a mom is this

00:23:28.920 idea that the mom should always be privileging the kid over her friendship or friendships just

00:23:34.320 generally or her hobbies or her identity just this incredible effacing of self that is at the heart of

00:23:40.660 like martyred motherdom yeah no absolutely I think also there's a confusion between like how we handle

00:23:48.460 kids feelings and how we handle their behavior. Yeah, like we can and I think we should welcome

00:23:53.980 like and try to be comfortable around our kids like big feelings. But we can set limits on like

00:23:59.580 what they do when they have those feelings. And I feel like gentle parenting kind of muddles these

00:24:04.140 things. And it's like, well, everything should be okay. And we should, you know, welcome every kind

00:24:09.140 of behavior. And it's, you know, we don't want to make our kids feel bad for, for acting out or

00:24:13.920 whatever it is, but actually like you can say that their feelings are normal and okay and welcome,

00:24:20.220 but that like how they express them or what they do when they feel them, you know, there are limits

00:24:24.000 around that. And I feel like there's just a confusion about that. Just a quick side note

00:24:28.500 about the language. I think some of it too, that strikes people as odd is just that it's different

00:24:32.580 than like our parents ever parented us. So the other day I was at my friend's house and her son

00:24:38.300 who is in kindergarten came in and he was with another kid and they were just like flopping all

00:24:43.900 over the place and she was like okay if you want to do big body motions like big body movements

00:24:49.740 that's in the basement if you want to do small body movements you can do it here and I laughed

00:24:55.220 so hard in the moment but it really worked there they were like do you want to go down to the

00:24:59.680 basement and do big body motions like go down that's amazing but like that works right right

00:25:07.460 yeah no you're right there is definitely a shift in how we talk about things with kids and uh very

00:25:12.800 different from how we were parented yeah uh okay next question is about dynamic between generations

00:25:20.120 when it comes to raising kids oh my gosh and this just reminds me of our mutual friend Virginia

00:25:24.240 and how she talks a lot about like this tension with grandparents and and diet culture and how

00:25:29.580 it comes into raising kids and grandkids so let's hear from Jenna how much of the tension between

00:25:35.240 millennial parents and their baby boomer parents during early parenting years is a normal part of

00:25:40.220 generational change, and how much is specific to this moment, with millennial parents drawing on

00:25:45.960 new information sources like parenting data, podcasts, and books like Emily Oster's, while

00:25:51.880 their parents came of age with more centralized guidance like Dr. Spock. For example, when I had

00:25:58.200 my first child, my mom and I disagreed constantly over things like screen time and sleep safety,

00:26:03.980 and she admitted to feeling like my choices were a critique of how she raised me.

00:26:09.260 I'm wondering how common that dynamic is, and if it's less generational and more just

00:26:14.100 the natural evolution of the relationship between parents and their grown children.

00:26:19.080 It's a great question.

00:26:20.620 It really is.

00:26:21.100 And not, it really is.

00:26:22.520 And I will start out by saying it's not one that we have like good data on.

00:26:27.180 I wish there were like studies that have, you know, over the course of many generations

00:26:31.220 tried to really parse this, and I don't think they exist.

00:26:34.580 And I mean, so I do think that there's, of course, always been tension between generations as caregiving trends naturally shift.

00:26:42.600 You know, I have this memory of my grandmother offering my older sister a cigarette when my sister was like 12 and like my parents losing their minds over it.

00:26:55.400 And like, you know, so clearly there was there were differences in ideas about child rearing between my parents and my grandparents.

00:27:02.360 Right. But I think that that there is something I think that parenting norms today are very, very different from those of our parents when we were growing up.

00:27:14.500 And I mean, I would venture to say and I don't know whether these changes are truly larger, but they certainly feel that way in so many realms.

00:27:22.320 And I think, honestly, a lot of it does have to do with science evolving, because like you think about just child physical safety,

00:27:29.320 Like we put babies to sleep in cribs very differently than when, you know, our parents were parenting us because we know more about safe sleep.

00:27:36.160 And we, you know, we have car seats and kids traveling cars very differently because we know much more about safety there.

00:27:42.680 And I think that, you know, I just read this great book, The Good Mother Myth by Nancy Reddy.

00:27:49.520 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:50.540 It's right. It's so good.

00:27:52.700 And she but she talks about how like science did shape our parents beliefs about parenting.

00:27:57.480 it wasn't always good science that they were getting um but now i think you know science

00:28:02.080 very much affects us and we have a lot more data and research on on child development and so like

00:28:07.960 how we discipline has really changed um we now have like more authoritative parenting like more

00:28:14.280 give and take like listening to your kids but also setting rules being warm but like negotiating

00:28:19.120 um sometimes permissive parenting i see a lot of that too whereas like our parents tended to be

00:28:23.980 more authoritarian in their parenting style, which was like much more strict and less warm and

00:28:30.120 more overbearing, more control. Discipline has changed. I mean, you mentioned Virginia Sol

00:28:35.320 Smith, like the way we feed our kids is so different for a lot of parents than how we were

00:28:39.880 fed. Like I don't force my kids to eat their vegetables before they have dessert, you know,

00:28:43.580 that kind of thing. And like what we talk about with our kids is so different. So like, you know,

00:28:49.020 there's just so much I was thinking about like how and a lot of it is changed because I mean I

00:28:54.640 there are many reasons but I and I may be like one of these people who think science is responsible

00:28:59.540 for everything but like I think about how we talk to kids about race now and how progressive

00:29:03.680 parents talk to kids about race and that's very different from this colorblind parenting that

00:29:08.240 our parents had when you know parents our parents my parents avoided talking about race because they

00:29:13.580 thought well if you don't talk about race kids won't notice it they won't become racist and now

00:29:17.980 the research shows like the opposite is kind of true and if we you know kids notice race from a

00:29:22.740 young age and if we don't talk to them about it then they try to understand like the power

00:29:27.180 differences in the world that exists due to race and they the easiest explanation for them is like

00:29:32.300 well white people are just smarter or more powerful we have to talk to them to explain like

00:29:36.440 well no it's racism it's structural um so there's just so many ways in which parenting has shifted

00:29:41.820 and so i do think that that makes perfect sense why there's much more disagreement now like

00:29:47.520 if again I don't know how much of it is is truly greater than it used to be in previous generations

00:29:53.440 but it does feel as if it's big and I think there's a good reason it feels like it's big

00:29:56.760 well and just norms are never fixed right like our thinking about breastfeeding has changed

00:30:01.660 so much our thinking about what labor should look like has changed so much like when kids should be

00:30:07.780 out of the home when they should be working what if like all sorts of things like that for me it's

00:30:12.760 just always a good reminder that like, what we think is absolutely right, right now, is going to

00:30:18.340 be interrogated and destabilized over the course of the next generation. So like, you can't be

00:30:23.960 too absolutely fixed on any one of these things. Like, you're like, this is what we think is the

00:30:30.400 best way to do it right now. Right? Yeah, right. It can absolutely shift. And I mean, and so I do

00:30:36.320 think, too, in some ways, like some of the choices we are making collectively, like an over parenting

00:30:41.820 our kids, we might actually, maybe we should listen to the grandparents a little bit on some

00:30:48.220 of these things. Like, cause we have, I think gone too far in certain directions and we're

00:30:51.480 making choices that aren't great for us or our kids. And so I do think like, even though we

00:30:57.700 might feel like, well, we have much more evidence that we should do it this way now for all sorts

00:31:02.720 of things. We are not always like we, we are following trends that are not always helpful.

00:31:07.840 And I think sometimes our parents' perspective might be helpful and maybe we should listen

00:31:12.880 a little to what they're saying.

00:31:14.520 Yeah.

00:31:14.680 What do you do with that piece of the question when it's like, well, you not doing this

00:31:19.180 thing that I did when I parented you means that you're like rejecting or interrogating

00:31:24.800 my parenting of you, like the personal, the kind of personal wounding, I guess.

00:31:30.620 Yeah, I think it makes sense that they feel this way.

00:31:34.400 I mean, I'm imagining myself with like my kids parenting differently than me and feeling

00:31:40.020 like a sense of rejection if they do it totally different, like, wait a minute, like, you

00:31:44.220 know, um, so I think that's, I mean, it makes sense that they feel that way.

00:31:48.580 And I, you know, I wish I had like a great solution for like what parents should do.

00:31:54.540 Um, but I mean, I don't know, like, I think it's worth like having a conversation saying

00:31:58.940 like, I feel like you were really good parents and I'm, you know, the world has changed and

00:32:03.260 so I'm doing things a little differently now and like yeah I think just underlining that like I

00:32:08.460 feel you were great parents but also this I mean sometimes you have to fib a little because there's

00:32:12.540 obviously there's always something that your parents did that like you know kind of messed

00:32:16.240 you up a little bit um and right but that's part of two of like the norms changing like you do

00:32:22.480 I think the the highest compliment you can take you can give a parent is like they really did do

00:32:27.320 the best that they could and sometimes we misapply that to every single parent and say like every

00:32:32.380 parent did the best that they could and it's not true right um and so if if that it does seem like

00:32:39.160 something that is available to you to say to your parents to be like you were great parents you did

00:32:44.360 the best that you could now we have like slightly different information and this is how i'm trying

00:32:47.880 to do it now i think that's a great way to think about it i think it is yeah i mean then the world

00:32:53.380 is different like so yeah it has to be different totally yeah

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00:37:44.280 our last question before we get to the ask and anything is about not just extracurriculars but

00:37:55.120 also the way that people talk about extracurriculars this question comes from anna there's this ongoing

00:38:01.620 conversation about over scheduling children but then also a celebration in so many ways of all

00:38:08.140 the skills that children gain by extracurricular activities my older daughter has asd and has

00:38:14.000 always required a lot of downtime and my younger daughter experiences some significant anxiety and

00:38:19.240 it can be difficult to find an activity in which she can participate happily. As a result, my family

00:38:26.460 developed a slower pace than many around us. Now as older elementary school students, both daughters

00:38:32.780 sometimes feel left out or they don't have their quote-unquote thing. And adults at work especially,

00:38:38.600 I feel a common small talk question is, what do your kids do? It feels so alienating for me with

00:38:44.860 a family who hasn't fit into the normal sports paradigm. I'm never sure how to respond. I also

00:38:52.700 feel some of the strain of parenting in a different social class than that in which I grew up, and I'm

00:38:57.900 wondering if I'm not adequately preparing my children. For context, I work in academia in a

00:39:03.560 large metropolitan area in the Midwest. What does this make you think of when you hear this story?

00:39:11.740 So I think we talk a lot about the skills that kids gain from extracurriculars, but we do not

00:39:19.660 talk enough about the skills that kids gain by not being so overscheduled. And so sometimes we

00:39:27.280 have to zoom out and think about the ways in which our parenting and our kids' childhoods

00:39:32.280 are preparing them for their future and their well-being in the future.

00:39:36.360 And, you know, when kids are hyper involved in structured activities, like they're always

00:39:41.500 around adults who are telling them what to do, curating their environments, like ensuring

00:39:44.940 that they're comfortable and well attended to.

00:39:48.800 But like there's a couple of different ways in which when we leave kids to their own devices

00:39:54.980 and don't schedule them in these like adult led activities, they can actually be better

00:39:59.600 off in the long run.

00:40:00.460 Um, you know, we know that like free play, I talk a lot about this in my new book, like

00:40:06.100 free play downtime, having lots of like leisure time that is really important for developing

00:40:12.040 all sorts of skills.

00:40:13.100 Like, I mean, and, and self-esteem, like being left to your own devices, being given

00:40:17.780 independence, being bored, like you're going to develop all sorts of problem solving skills

00:40:22.900 and play, you know, social skills.

00:40:24.840 If you're just like hanging out with kids without, without adults around that can honestly

00:40:29.440 be more valuable sometimes in the long run. Um, yeah. In my book, I talked about how I was like

00:40:36.040 a hyper scheduled kid and I cannot blame my parents. Like, I don't really, I tried to figure

00:40:41.940 this out in therapy, but like, I did kind of did it to myself, honestly. And then I realized like,

00:40:46.160 I don't know, five or six years ago, I was just deeply unhappy and I didn't even know like what

00:40:51.120 I liked, what I wanted. And then I did a bunch of research. I talked to leisure researchers,

00:40:58.200 which I did not know oh my gosh there is so much great leisure like history it's so great yeah it

00:41:05.020 it was so great and I looked at the research on like kids who have more leisure time and like how

00:41:12.700 they fare compared to kids who don't have as much and like kids when they have more time like

00:41:18.320 downtime leisure time they have the opportunity to like discover for themselves what they actually

00:41:23.600 like doing it's like really helpful for like identity discovery and exploration and we know

00:41:29.120 that adults who had more time for leisure as kids tend to be more playful like embrace leisure more

00:41:35.040 have a better work-life balance like they're just better at like know how to chill like this is the

00:41:41.940 big difference I see in my life is like people who know how to chill and people who don't and

00:41:46.440 by chill I don't just mean like relax on the couch and scroll your phone I mean like really feel like

00:41:53.180 huh like we're just doing stuff like maybe i'll like meander like behave like a retiree essentially

00:41:58.960 and i know that sometimes i mean like people interpret that as like oh must be nice to be

00:42:03.260 so rich and it's not rich people right it's people who don't understand themselves as an

00:42:07.700 optimization machine who should always be doing something yeah yeah no and i i mean i do struggle

00:42:13.480 like i am i'm not good at chilling and i've never happened i'm getting a little better now i'm like

00:42:18.000 figuring myself out but i'm also 46 like i kind of wish this had happened earlier in my life

00:42:23.360 Maybe when I was a kid would have been good.

00:42:26.400 But yeah, there's this whole research on like kids can learn this like leisure repertoire,

00:42:31.020 they say, if they have more downtime as kids.

00:42:33.700 And that's so valuable for like their happiness and well-being forever.

00:42:38.440 And like, I think also we need to keep in mind that there are downsides to having too

00:42:42.260 many extracurriculars.

00:42:43.180 And I did a whole three-part series on extracurriculars a couple years ago.

00:42:46.960 So good.

00:42:47.580 And like, yeah, we know that like the busier kids are with these structures.

00:42:52.720 activities the less time they have for their social lives for play for for even for homework

00:42:57.200 for sleep like god kids are chronically sleep deprived um i was just gonna tip us to talking

00:43:03.540 a little bit more about the the neurodivergence and anxiety too like a lot of these kids activities

00:43:09.400 are not structured for like different ways that kids brains work they are for like people whose

00:43:15.980 brains work like in a like okay let's do this regimented activity where everyone does the same

00:43:20.340 thing and then we go on to the next thing really quickly virtually no flexibility in a lot of these

00:43:25.100 activities i mean and often like there's not enough you know it's the adults in charge may

00:43:31.120 not like have the knowledge or the ability like they might not have enough staff like to be able

00:43:36.860 to accommodate differences in need and and you know it's it can be a real problem and so i i

00:43:45.600 think too and if you force kids into these structured activities and it's just not you know

00:43:51.660 right for them and their temperament or their brains or whatever it is their bodies then that

00:43:56.720 can be I think also a really big risk um you know I like I was talking to my kids last night they

00:44:02.860 just had field day yesterday and I was like oh my god the trauma of field day I was awful at sports

00:44:09.940 like I hated it I realized as an adult I learned from an optometrist that like I don't have any

00:44:14.620 depth perception in my eyes. I didn't know this growing up, but it was such a relief to learn

00:44:18.380 because I was terrible at like ball sports. I was always the last picked for every PE team.

00:44:23.200 And I felt this like deep sense of shame. And that is not great for kids to be experiencing

00:44:28.620 if they're forced into activities or they're in activities in which it's just, they can't

00:44:33.260 be accommodated and their differences, you know, feel like failures. And that's, that's not good

00:44:37.900 for anybody. This makes me feel great because so I'm left-handed and I was the only left-handed

00:44:43.480 person in my class because it was still like the tail end of left-handers essentially being like

00:44:48.800 acknowledged in the world um you know like uh it was the emergence of the first generations of

00:44:54.780 proud left-handers uh and so there was no left-handed mitt and I never learned how to like

00:45:01.200 catch a ball so I got hit in the face a lot and uh yeah that just like traumatized me towards sports

00:45:08.200 And I think a lot about this story from when I was in third grade, I had signed up to do soccer in part because I wanted to because my friends were doing it in part because my mom was like, yeah, it'd be good for you to do like something that's a group sport.

00:45:20.460 And I had so much anxiety over doing it.

00:45:24.560 I wouldn't have known to call it anxiety at the time.

00:45:26.540 I felt shy.

00:45:27.200 I felt like I didn't want to do it.

00:45:28.440 I locked myself in the bathroom.

00:45:30.640 And my parents were like, no, you have to do it.

00:45:34.200 Like you have to do this because you signed up for the team.

00:45:36.920 and in hindsight it's really important that I showed up and I played and that I did that season

00:45:42.980 and like I challenged myself in these ways that like I was a real perfectionist and only like

00:45:48.880 doing things that I was very good at immediately but part of the reason that that particular

00:45:53.560 parenting strategy worked for me was that I wasn't a nerd divergent kid right like it was like a

00:46:00.580 particular strategy that cannot be universalized it may or may not work for your kid and I think

00:46:05.300 that's that's part of the hard thing here is this understanding of like parenting like good

00:46:10.640 parenting as one way of parenting instead of like almost a modality of like good parenting is like

00:46:17.240 figuring out what works for your kids and sometimes that means challenging and pushing boundaries and

00:46:21.940 sometimes it doesn't and I just like this mom I just want to be like seems like you're really in

00:46:26.600 touch with your kids that's cool that's the most important thing I mean I mean that's the thing

00:46:30.520 about parenting advice like there's no there's never a one-size-fits-all piece of parenting

00:46:35.200 advice you know and like plus all the research is like done on mostly like white wealthy

00:46:40.800 populations like there's so much we don't know and so yeah we absolutely like should listen to

00:46:46.780 our instincts and pay attention to what our gut is telling us about what our kids can handle and

00:46:51.820 what's best for them and sometimes that's going to go directly against what we're being told we

00:46:57.120 should do as parents by everybody around us but like we've got to be strong and listen to that

00:47:02.640 listen to that voice but it's really hard okay so we have two more questions along these lines

00:47:08.600 and they're specifically about sports one of my favorite things to talk about kids sports

00:47:12.920 and we're going to make them into the triple a segment this week which means that they're just

00:47:17.040 for paid subscribers so if you want our thoughts on navigating kids sports culture head to

00:47:21.900 culturestudypod.substack.com and become a paid subscriber. This has been so fantastic. I would

00:47:27.260 love to have you on the show again because these questions are never ending. If people want to find

00:47:32.020 more of your work, where should they look right now? My website, which is melindawenermoyer.com.

00:47:39.280 You can sign up for my sub stack there or order links for my book are on there

00:47:44.060 and books, I should say. So yeah, thank you. This was so fun.

00:47:52.560 Thank you so much for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.

00:47:55.560 Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

00:47:58.340 We have so many great episodes in the works, and I promise you don't want to miss any of them.

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00:48:07.180 or submit a question for our subscriber-only advice time segment,

00:48:11.200 check the show notes for a link to our Substack.

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00:48:40.320 You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodious47, and the show at Culture Study Pod.

00:48:47.580 Thank you so much for your support.

Culture Study Podcast - June 11, 2025

Let's Unpack Some Intensive Parenting Trends (In a Way That Will Not Make You Feel Like Crap)

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