Culture Study Podcast - Surviving Eight Years of Conversion Therapy

00:00:00.680 Hey, everyone. I just wanted to let you know that today's show has some heavy moments,

00:00:05.180 including mention of suicide. So please use discretion and listen with care.

00:00:16.820 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:00:20.640 And I'm Timothy Schrader-Rodriguez, the author of Conversion Therapy Dropout.

00:00:25.280 We're going to start just broadly with this idea of conversion therapy, which, you know, I was reading something from the Center for American Progress, and they, at the top, they said, we don't use the term conversion therapy anymore, because they use conversion practices to describe what's happening, because to call it therapy is to suggest that there is therapeutic value to the people receiving it, whereas it's actually like a non-therapeutic value.

00:00:55.280 Um, so we'll go back and forth because I think a lot of people called still conversion therapy

00:00:59.860 and conversion practices, but I also want to start with how these programs are talked about

00:01:06.360 are like the names for them. Like, what was it called? How did you think of it when you started

00:01:13.220 going through one of these programs, any of these programs? Yeah. I started conversion therapy when

00:01:19.680 I was 19, I opted into it. So there was no adult or parent telling me I had to do it.

00:01:27.560 This was in 2001. And so the internet really wasn't fully invented yet. So I couldn't go

00:01:34.460 online to seek it out. So it started by me reading a book that I picked up at a Christian bookstore

00:01:39.420 that was like, here's the pathway to become the man God wants you to be. In the back of the book

00:01:45.240 was a phone number to Exodus International,

00:01:48.000 which was the largest conversion therapy organization

00:01:50.720 of its time.

00:01:51.800 And so I picked up the phone and said,

00:01:54.400 hey, I don't think I wanna be gay anymore

00:01:56.940 or I don't wanna be gay, period.

00:01:59.120 And they said, okay, we can help you.

00:02:01.200 And so it was originally under the banner

00:02:03.140 of Exodus International.

00:02:05.380 Exodus was an organization that was a network of ministries

00:02:08.640 that at the time promoted conversion therapy.

00:02:10.840 There was hundreds of them

00:02:12.400 across the United States and globally.

00:02:14.300 So the first ministry that I got a part of was called Living Hope, which was an online-based forum that's still in existence today.

00:02:22.740 And then over time, I went to an in-person therapist.

00:02:25.880 I did support groups.

00:02:27.480 I went to Exodus's big national conference every year.

00:02:30.900 So it took a lot of forms and a lot of different shapes.

00:02:33.840 But at the end of the day, it was communicating the same message to me that I was broken.

00:02:38.480 Is this the only work that Exodus did?

00:02:42.920 Yes.

00:02:43.180 They do like, why did they call it exodus?

00:02:46.280 Well, if you think about it, we were in captivity to our sexuality and we needed to be free.

00:02:55.340 Oh my gosh.

00:02:56.820 Right?

00:02:59.320 I also think like, I wanted to outline a lot of this because I think sometimes from watching films or reading books,

00:03:05.760 there might be this idea for people who are not, who didn't grow up in Christian spaces in particular,

00:03:11.760 that like conversion therapy is always like a camp that you go to almost, right?

00:03:18.160 Like an intense conversion experience in that capacity.

00:03:22.340 But it's often, as you said, like an online message board.

00:03:25.920 Yeah.

00:03:26.340 It takes a lot of different forms.

00:03:28.500 And, you know, those camps, there were residential treatment programs that were like rehab.

00:03:33.700 There were, you know, the electroshock treatments.

00:03:35.840 But by and large, it looked and felt like Christian therapy.

00:03:40.740 I was in a therapist's office excavating my past for evidence of why I was the way that I was.

00:03:47.080 It was online support groups.

00:03:49.240 It was also in-person support groups. 0.99

00:03:52.020 So it was like AA, but for homosexuality.

00:03:54.800 So it took a lot of different forms.

00:03:57.600 It brings to mind some of the conversations that I would have with male counselors at the church camp where I used to work,

00:04:04.440 where they would always, like, at least a couple nights a week, they would dedicate it, 0.97

00:04:08.560 not to talking about sexuality, but just to talking about masturbation and like masturbation 0.60

00:04:14.660 support groups. Like, how do I masturbate less? Like confessing when you like give into masturbation, 0.94

00:04:21.540 like all of these things. And with like similar format, only the thing about masturbation is if 0.91

00:04:28.400 you did it once, like it wasn't like your total self, whereas gayness was like, oh, I need to 0.96

00:04:33.100 deny myself over and over and over and over again. Well, okay. Interesting point on masturbation. 1.00

00:04:38.240 So in conversion therapy, we were taught not to do that because it was reinforcing our same-sex desire because it was male touch if you were male or female if you were – right? 0.91

00:04:54.780 Oh, my gosh. Really?

00:04:56.760 Uh-huh. Oh, yeah.

00:04:58.000 Like self-touch was male – ah!

00:05:00.560 Right?

00:05:01.200 Wow.

00:05:01.680 So, like, we couldn't even do that.

00:05:04.960 But the thing was there was conflicting advice givens.

00:05:07.700 Like that was one school of thought.

00:05:09.280 The other school of thought was if the difference is between you acting out what they called, you know, if you had sex with anyone outside of marriage, it was acting out.

00:05:19.320 If the choice was acting out with another person or taking care of yourself, do that because that's less criminal than actually acting out with another person.

00:05:29.160 Yeah.

00:05:29.640 And this gets to something you talk a lot in your book about how you became incredibly adept at code switching.

00:05:34.800 not only like code switching like like in church settings and non-church settings but also

00:05:41.460 code switching because of the way that you grew up so can you talk a little bit about

00:05:46.440 how you got so good at this but also the toll that it took on you yeah I mean the code switching

00:05:54.460 for me started a lot earlier before I was in conversion therapy I was adopted and my adoptive

00:06:01.480 parents and my biological parents were friends and we all lived in the same small town Peoria

00:06:07.240 Illinois and we all had a lot of common friends and so I met my biological family for the first

00:06:14.240 time when I was nine years old and it was an incredibly moving experience and I've had a

00:06:19.660 relationship with them since but I never felt like I fully belonged to either of my families after

00:06:25.300 that because in both families I was adopted and I think as I explained in my book that's kind of

00:06:30.160 reason why I gravitated towards church so much because it was kind of the only stable community

00:06:34.560 that I had in my life. And I had to learn through that process of navigating between both families

00:06:40.740 how to show up to each and how to kind of present myself. And then obviously in conversion therapy,

00:06:47.180 I was given this whole list of behaviors to modify and things to change because it was a combination

00:06:53.820 of talk therapy and spirituality. But then there was also, here's the external checklist that you

00:07:00.220 need to follow. So learn how to lower your voice, listen to music with male lead singers, not female 0.81

00:07:06.600 lead singers. But I made an exception for Hillsong because Darlene Cech was my diva.

00:07:13.140 But since it was Christian music and it was about Jesus, I was like, this is okay. That's okay.

00:07:18.580 okay that doesn't this doesn't completely make sense to me you're supposed to only listen to

00:07:25.120 like essentially like third day correct um by the way clay yeah but like that's male voices like

00:07:31.620 so you're supposed to be identifying with these like masculine voices instead of identifying with

00:07:36.660 like the diva on stage exactly like lip sync to men singing don't like lip sync to the women like

00:07:42.860 get it into your psyche but this is what men sound like and then it went down to clothing too 0.51

00:07:48.440 So, you know, think about what you wear and you shouldn't wear Abercrombie or Calvin Klein because those sexualized men's bodies.

00:07:56.480 And then you're thinking about what that how you feel when you wear those clothes.

00:08:00.400 And so it's like, you know, go shop at Eddie Bauer or The Gap.

00:08:04.020 It just it strikes me as so much like it's not just about who you desire.

00:08:08.640 It's also about performing a certain understanding of masculinity.

00:08:11.980 So like, cause you could be straight and be more feminine and, and not understand your

00:08:17.900 desire is, is not straight, but you shouldn't be doing that.

00:08:20.600 Like it's policing that as well.

00:08:22.220 Oh, absolutely.

00:08:23.120 And like, there were, you know, at these conferences I went to, they would have football coaches

00:08:29.440 come and teach the guys how to play football or the rules of football, because they should 0.95

00:08:33.760 be doing that when they go home with their straight friends to understand like what men

00:08:38.260 are into. 0.86

00:08:38.840 And on the opposite end, the local Mary Kay consultant would come and teach the girls how 1.00

00:08:45.100 to do their makeup. Yeah. Messed up. But to answer your question, that ruined all of us 1.00

00:08:53.700 because we were constantly second guessing ourselves. We were constantly policing ourselves.

00:09:00.200 And we were taught your intuition is wrong. Your first thought is the wrong thought. You need to

00:09:05.760 put every thought under the submission of Christ. And so it just made us super self-critical and

00:09:11.780 self-judgmental of ourselves to the point that like, I didn't really know who I was. I was just

00:09:17.020 performing this version of a person that I thought would be deemed acceptable.

00:09:21.380 And it's such a incredibly formative moment in your life, right? Like everyone is struggling

00:09:27.640 with these things and you're having like your understanding of self undercut again and again

00:09:32.180 it again. Yeah. And I mean, the one thing I will say is like in youth group, before I had like

00:09:37.260 fully named this and before I had engaged in conversion therapy, those like men's purity

00:09:42.680 talks or like true love weights weekends, I had no problem signing a commitment to not

00:09:50.500 worrying about sexual purity with a girl. I was like, I got this. But it totally made me feel

00:09:57.240 othered because i was like my struggle is not like anyone else's here but i don't feel safe

00:10:01.960 to talk about it yes yes the other thing that i will note and i think that this is something

00:10:07.980 that like if you did not grow up in christianity did not feel this intensely like sometimes people 0.83

00:10:12.840 are like well if this was so fucked up like why did you stick with it and it's hard to communicate 0.99

00:10:18.900 that you think that you're going to hell if you don't like the threat of damnation 0.99

00:10:25.220 is a very real one. And it's very scary. And it's also, I think when people are like,

00:10:31.380 how can someone not love their, their like gay son or whatever it is, right?

00:10:37.780 It does not excuse this. I'm just like labeling that they think that this person is going to hell. 0.94

00:10:44.080 Oh yeah, definitely. And, and it was that for me, it was, I'm going to go to hell for the rest of

00:10:49.480 my life, but also I was going to lose my connection to God, to my church. I thought I was going to

00:10:56.080 lose my family. And church had become so important to me that I couldn't imagine a life outside of

00:11:02.320 that space because I didn't know that a larger world existed out there. And so this was, I felt

00:11:09.820 compelled to start it and put myself through it because I thought it was the only option I had.

00:11:14.360 Did you have any visibility on churches that were inclusive at that time?

00:11:18.360 we have to like root people in this time because there was not like there were no rainbow flags

00:11:22.620 on churches there were no rainbow flags on churches there were barely queer characters

00:11:27.440 on tv i mean this was the late 90s early 2000s my church passed around a petition when ellen was

00:11:33.560 going to come out on television like we were part of this group of churches that like signed

00:11:37.760 petitions to tell abc like we don't want this on the air or put it on later at night because we

00:11:43.100 want to protect our children. So like there was, I was so shielded from anything like that. And

00:11:48.640 this is funny too. Like, I don't know if my parents suspected or if it was just their own

00:11:54.800 prejudice, but like, I remember there were two women who lived down the street from me and they

00:12:01.280 all, my parents always called them the sisters. And it wasn't until like a decade later I pieced

00:12:07.120 together. They were not sisters. They were lovers. Like that was a lesbian couple, but like, I didn't

00:12:12.820 know any queer people or any openly gay people growing up either. So like I had no influence.

00:12:18.180 I had no relationship. Like I was just in my little protected conservative Christian bubble

00:12:22.480 in the Midwest. And even though I was so shielded from all of that, I still had it in me.

00:12:28.800 Yeah. Yeah.

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00:16:47.420 okay so i also want to note that conversion therapy is once again in the news for very

00:17:00.780 important reasons there's two well two things one i think that we see this a lot a lot of

00:17:05.480 conversation about trans conversion therapy like forcing people to detransition trump

00:17:12.280 is trying to like make it so that people can't socially transition or must socially detransition

00:17:18.760 different things about the the access to hormones in when for people who are incarcerated all this

00:17:25.500 stuff but then there's also a supreme court case that by the time that this is released may or may

00:17:31.000 not have already come down so can you talk a little bit more about that yeah absolutely so

00:17:36.440 well first of all i want to say a lot of people think conversion therapy is a thing of the past

00:17:42.000 yeah like let's just start there like exodus the organization that i mentioned earlier

00:17:46.460 was uh in 2013 came out and and shut down they said we have no proof that this works we have

00:17:55.040 very little evidence that anyone has ever successfully changed their orientation

00:17:58.880 over the nearly 40 years that they were in existence and a lot of folks think okay well

00:18:04.380 that means that that all went away then but not every organization under the umbrella of exodus

00:18:10.200 felt that way. And they just reorganized, they rebranded, they went underground. And now we're

00:18:16.920 seeing this case before the Supreme Court. It is a therapist in Colorado who is arguing that it's her

00:18:24.200 constitutional right of free speech to be able to do conversion practices in a therapeutic setting.

00:18:31.080 And so this is a problem because, and a lot of people also don't understand that there are

00:18:37.380 conversion therapy bans in place in 27 states, but that does not mean that conversion therapy

00:18:43.060 does not happen in those states. The bans are only protecting conversion therapy in therapeutic

00:18:48.420 settings. And so there's over 1,300 organizations in 48 states that are performing conversion

00:18:55.580 therapy right now. And the number may actually be larger because some of them are underground.

00:19:00.960 So the danger of this case is that if the court does rule in favor of the therapist, that's just specifically in Colorado.

00:19:10.460 But that means that it's probably likely going to be a domino effect in all of the other states where there are bans in place.

00:19:17.420 And if by some miracle the court decides to keep the ban in place in Colorado, that only means that the breadth of conversion therapy is just going to be continued to be pushed underground.

00:19:30.960 And a thing to note on that, too, is that this is around minors. And so the Trevor Project did some research over the last year, a longitudinal study of queer youth, and found that the number of queer youth undergoing conversion therapy in one year in the last year grew from 9% to 15% in the group that they studied.

00:19:55.220 And I think this is just the effect of our current political climate, the things that you've mentioned with the attack on the trans community, and the modern iteration of conversion therapy, one of the largest groups that's out there, is encouraging pastors to not give in to cultural pressure.

00:20:17.920 And I think the new forefront of conversion therapy is going to be around the trans and non-binary identities. And conversion therapy itself already upholds those things in forcing us into, or people that are a part of it, into those strict gender norms and binaries, saying you have to be a man, you have to be a woman. And so it's set up to accommodate that.

00:20:40.280 Yep. And we'll link in the show notes to some larger writing, too, about the ramifications. Like, if the Supreme Court rules that this is an act of free speech, like there are pretty tremendous ripple effects in terms of like other practices that will become legal as well. So again, we'll link to that.

00:20:59.440 so let's dig into the questions they're gonna take us in so many directions you are the perfect

00:21:05.880 person to answer these and i really appreciate the questions from our readers like this is a

00:21:09.960 a hard topic and i think they're digging into it in a really interesting way so this first

00:21:14.660 question comes from neke in what ways might the centrality of the concept of total depravity

00:21:20.400 within american evangelicalism be driving or at least connected to the focus on using harm

00:21:26.940 to try to convert people away from queerness and transness?

00:21:31.440 Or is it merely an application of behaviorism,

00:21:34.580 i.e. treating queerness and transness not as a central quality of people,

00:21:39.180 but rather a behavior that can be pavloved out of people using negative stimulus?

00:21:44.580 I guess what I'm circling around is a question of how much the form conversion therapy takes

00:21:49.880 is linked to particular religious frameworks

00:21:52.600 versus just generic American bigotry

00:21:55.480 utilizing a pop-sci application of behaviorism?

00:21:59.780 What a culture study question.

00:22:01.800 We love our readers.

00:22:03.700 I know.

00:22:04.340 But to me, is this a Calvinist thing, right? 0.93

00:22:07.720 Is this like we are all totally depraved

00:22:11.080 and we need to figure out how to be

00:22:13.640 maybe slightly less depraved,

00:22:15.080 like trying to figure out if we're chosen, 1.00

00:22:17.180 like if you're behaving in gay ways

00:22:20.780 that like is an indication of that or is it this behaviorism thing and like some of the discussion 0.89

00:22:26.200 that we were having before really points to this idea that like you may have a like a gay heart

00:22:32.540 but like you cannot behave in gay ways and maybe your heart will change like where does this take

00:22:37.840 you it's a fantastic question and i think it's both it's honestly a mix of both i think that 0.65

00:22:44.560 that whole idea of total depravity creates a framework where queerness is just a symptom

00:22:50.840 of the fall of us all being broken and sinful. And so it kind of gives that moral authority to 0.66

00:22:56.220 the argument. And that is different than behaviorism because that suggests that it's

00:23:00.420 something that's learned. And so therefore you can un-run it or you can kind of like

00:23:03.940 work your way out of it. And so in my experience in conversion therapy, it was a combination of

00:23:09.360 the two. And I would say that, you know, there are some forms of conversion therapy because it's not

00:23:14.300 always religious, first of all. It's sometimes not. And so in that case, it is treated as a

00:23:20.080 behavior. But if it's treated with a religious connotation to it, then it's also treating it as

00:23:26.300 this spiritual condition that requires confession and surrender. And so either way, in both of those

00:23:34.040 scenarios, if you fail to change, the problem is you, the individual. It's not what you went

00:23:42.620 through or whatever. It's like, no, it's all on you. And so in the behaviorist approach,

00:23:49.080 it was a failure on your part because the spiritual thing wasn't worked or vice versa.

00:23:54.040 In the spiritual approach, you didn't do the behavior modification right. But I would say

00:23:59.600 there's been a long tradition of pathologizing queerness. The APA added it into the DSM in 1952,

00:24:08.280 but it only stayed in for about 21 years. It was removed in 1973. And what happened in that time

00:24:14.860 was a lot of horrific things, right? Like medical castration and lobotomies, just like horrible

00:24:21.560 things that people were doing because they thought that they could change a person's

00:24:26.260 sexual orientation. And obviously like the broader shame of the evangelical culture of shame

00:24:33.940 kind of just, you know, fueled that. And what's interesting is the DSM removes homosexuality from

00:24:42.120 the list of mental disorders in 1973. Exodus International began in 1975.

00:24:49.660 Wow. 0.73

00:24:50.600 So it was sort of like the Christian response to that being removed. And so I think what

00:24:57.580 conversion therapy in the modern sense did is it absorbed that pseudoscience that was

00:25:03.560 medically disproven already not to work, and just applied spirituality over it and gave it a

00:25:09.820 theological architecture. There's a place in the intro where you talk about your quote-unquote

00:25:17.080 quack Christian therapist telling you that some of your backslides, as we say, into queer desire, 0.58

00:25:26.000 that that's just God refining you, testing you. So that messaging of how does 0.92

00:25:33.540 that work into this, this idea that the tests and like the moments when you like break with

00:25:39.600 your best intentions, that that's like God's refinement of your character, essentially.

00:25:44.580 Yeah. I mean, again, our failure in conversion therapy was never the failure of the program

00:25:50.920 or the failure of the divine to protect us. It was our failure as the individual. And so just

00:25:58.160 like how God tested Job, things are going to come our way or just how Jesus was tested in the

00:26:03.320 wilderness, we're going to have these things come up to us and we're going to have to make this

00:26:08.700 decision. And if we stumble, if we fall, as long as we get back up and keep fighting the good fight,

00:26:15.180 we're going to be okay. But it's just this process of you got to work through it. God's

00:26:19.180 going to be with you. God's going to be faithful, but you just got to keep at it. And it just messes

00:26:23.960 with your psyche. But yeah, every week I would sit in my therapist's office or in a circle of

00:26:29.680 chairs in a church basement and would have to confess, I messed up, I did this, I did that.

00:26:36.000 But my showing up there again was a celebration that I was still fighting the good fight.

00:26:41.220 So in the State of the Union, I'm trying to see if I can get the words right, but Trump

00:26:45.440 essentially said, we're not going to let kids socially transition anymore. And he said something

00:26:51.040 along the lines of, because God loves you exactly how you are, or the way that God made you,

00:26:57.520 like something like that but yeah that idea right that like god originally made you as straight and

00:27:04.280 cisgendered instead of god loves you whoever you are right right like that to me it really strikes

00:27:13.980 at like different understandings of how like god works how belovedness works right completely oh

00:27:20.900 Yeah. I mean, that was absolutely shoved down my throat growing up. There's only one particular

00:27:28.540 way to live your life. God created us perfectly, but sin corrupted us. And so in my instance,

00:27:36.020 it was like, I was okay, but my gayness is just a result of brokenness and the result of the fall.

00:27:42.580 And it took me eight years in conversion therapy, plus many years after healing from it to realize

00:27:49.380 that when the Bible does say we are created in God's image, that we are fearfully and wonderfully

00:27:54.200 made, that doesn't just mean straight people. That means everyone. But it took me a long time

00:28:00.040 to realize that truth and to claim it for myself. I just, can I chime in with a flashback I just

00:28:05.660 got? I remember hearing from pulpits, like, God loves you just the way you are, but he loves you

00:28:11.700 too much to let you stay that way. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That was very deep. Oh, yeah. No,

00:28:18.380 for real. Yes. So messed up. Our next question comes from Lena Alla, and Melody's going to read

00:28:25.180 it. Trans people have existed long before Christianity was formed. Trans traditions

00:28:30.160 and folk have been documented in various South Asian, Southeast Asian, and Asian cultures,

00:28:35.120 as well as across the Polynesian diaspora. Given this fact, how do Christian nationals justify 0.96

00:28:40.720 reinstituting a practice that has been proven to be dangerously harmful to LGBTQ plus people? 0.96

00:28:46.820 and moreover is ineffective people just learn to live forever in shame and silence if that's what

00:28:53.140 someone has chosen for themselves fine but we cannot force it on others can we what are the

00:28:57.940 best ways to prevent this from happening i really wanted to include this question both to emphasize

00:29:03.100 as she does that like trans people have existed forever gay people have existed forever

00:29:08.160 but also just i think this is a very common reaction outside of the church to be like

00:29:15.780 we know that this hurts people like we know the suicide rates we know the suffering

00:29:23.200 and yet this process continues so how do you think like the church continues to like

00:29:30.700 even with exodus saying like this is ineffective yeah how do they continue to like endorse this

00:29:39.800 because they're reading the bible through such a narrow lens you know if you think about

00:29:45.400 how people read and look at and interpret the Bible. They've used it to justify horrible things

00:29:52.560 in the past. They're using it to justify horrible things in our present. But if you read the Bible

00:29:58.640 like I do now, I mean, I see trans folks. I see gender non-conforming people, the Ethiopian eunuch.

00:30:06.460 Maybe David and Jonathan were gay. Maybe Naomi and Ruth were lesbians. I don't know. 0.99

00:30:12.020 But we always just tend to read the Bible through a particular black and white binary.

00:30:17.180 And it's like, I think the Bible's a lot more expansive than that.

00:30:20.460 And at the end of the day, they don't view the Bible as this document that's just part of a long history of things that are out there, cultural literature.

00:30:33.600 They see it as God's final word on everything, which overrides anything else.

00:30:39.080 and so they're not they don't care about what the data says about the harm that conversion

00:30:46.120 therapy causes because they're more concerned about the eternal harm of what's going to happen

00:30:51.860 to someone that they what they believe will happen to someone if they embrace their sexuality so

00:30:57.660 that's kind of where the whole like love the sinner hate the sin comes into play like right

00:31:02.160 they are so like we love you so much we don't want you to go to hell and so that's why

00:31:06.240 we're telling you this is what you need to do. Or they use it and say, well, the Bible does say

00:31:12.420 narrow is the road for someone to find their way to heaven. Or Jesus said, deny ourselves.

00:31:18.080 And so the argument in those instances for them that it doesn't work just doesn't hold any weight

00:31:24.680 because a real therapist would say someone effectively integrating themselves is the goal

00:31:32.020 where conversion therapy and the Christian nationalists want compliance. And so they're

00:31:38.640 just like, are you fitting the norm? Are you saying what we need to want you to say? Are you

00:31:42.820 believing what we want you to believe? They don't look at the data. They're not listening to those

00:31:46.560 stories. And one thing I'll say on that is when I entered into conversion therapy, like I said,

00:31:52.280 it was pre-internet, pre-social media. And so I would read people's stories in the books I picked

00:31:58.520 up or I would hear people's testimonies on stage at conferences that I used to go to.

00:32:03.900 But the modern version of conversion therapy is very digital savvy. They are all over social media

00:32:10.080 sharing their testimonies. And that movement is weaponizing people's experiences and their stories

00:32:16.660 to say, see, this is proof. You can change. This is proof. This works. And so churches have those

00:32:25.240 kinds of people on stages. But what I will tell you is the people whose stories I read in books

00:32:31.580 and the people whose stories I heard at the conferences I went to, none of them were successful

00:32:37.620 long-term in changing themselves. Most of them reverted back, came out, broke up their families,

00:32:45.080 broke up their lives. Some ended their lives. And we're just seeing a new iteration of that today.

00:32:51.200 Right. Gosh, this reminds me of so many things. First of all, the idea that like the Bible, as Christians understand it, is like this absolutely sacred text that is not instead stories that were passed down to make sense of the world. Right. And for us to make sense of God, whatever that means.

00:33:15.700 I think that, like, that resistance to understanding the text as a vibrant living thing is part of the problem.

00:33:21.880 And you can actually apply this to how people think about the Constitution as well.

00:33:25.240 Oh, yeah. Definitely.

00:33:27.320 And the other thing, just with, like, why do you think, and I kind of know the answer to this,

00:33:37.440 But like this incredible focus on sexuality instead of all of the other blaring contradictions, like let's say in the White House, like to what Christian nationalists proclaim to believe about purity, behavior, the accumulation of wealth, like all of these things.

00:33:57.920 Why such oversized focus on who people love, how they perform masculinity, how they perform

00:34:05.860 femininity, how they perform gender? I think a couple of things. It's their unwillingness

00:34:14.100 to look at it in themselves. It's their own internalized homophobia. I also think

00:34:19.300 there were so many mega churches that I worked for. There were so many influential pastors that

00:34:26.260 I knew who told me, you can't keep doing what you're doing. You're not welcome. We can't accept

00:34:33.320 people like you. And fast forward about a decade, they're no longer the pastors of those churches

00:34:40.480 or the leaders of those organizations because they themselves were disqualified for other

00:34:45.940 sexual immorality or other things that they had done themselves. And so I think some of it is,

00:34:51.640 it's just a deflection from what's going on inside them, not actual concern or compassion for

00:34:57.720 the people that are impacted by these decisions they're making.

00:35:00.820 I love the point that you make about your high school, about your Christian private high school,

00:35:06.640 that four of the teachers had affairs. Yes. Yes. And that your principal came out as gay.

00:35:12.780 Yes. It was terrible. Yeah. Like my high school principal, like he loved to listen to Celine 0.96

00:35:19.820 Dion he had a Tiffany lamp in his office he sang solos at church like just artsy fartsy like and

00:35:26.760 you know we all laughed at it it's like oh he's artsy but this is the tea gave his wife an STD

00:35:33.100 she worked in the medical profession and just thought she got it somehow there and then like

00:35:40.620 it all came out how she actually got it and it's you know it's like devastating I'm like I feel I

00:35:46.660 I mean, it's horrible what happened, but I also feel bad for him.

00:35:48.880 Because it's like, God, what a life.

00:35:51.780 How to put yourself and your family through that.

00:35:54.140 It's so sad.

00:35:55.520 This is always what I think about.

00:35:56.840 When you try to repress who you are, there's just so much heartache.

00:36:02.880 So much.

00:36:04.420 And unless you have people who are really, and I know that there are a lot of stories about this.

00:36:09.020 People who have fought it and fought it and then are like, no, I can't fight it anymore.

00:36:13.720 And then their spouse, their family, like, figures out how to love them and get through it.

00:36:20.040 But oftentimes, because of the incredible denial and shame, it just leads in catastrophe.

00:36:26.420 Oh, absolutely.

00:36:27.920 So sad. 1.00

00:36:29.700 And, you know, when I was in conversion therapy, they would always scare us away from the gay community. 0.97

00:36:36.800 Or I'm using air quotes since this is audio. 1.00

00:36:39.300 Like, if we went into the lifestyle.

00:36:41.640 Yes, the lifestyle.

00:36:42.900 You know, they wanted to scare us out of it.

00:36:45.740 And they said, if you choose this, it's going to be a dark path.

00:36:48.460 You're going to be depressed.

00:36:49.380 You're going to do all of these things.

00:36:50.540 You're going to become addicted to drugs.

00:36:52.480 And those things were true for a lot of us.

00:36:55.500 Yeah.

00:36:55.880 Like, but it wasn't because we came out as gay.

00:36:58.980 It's because of all the toxic things that we were taught to believe about ourselves.

00:37:03.080 Yes, exactly.

00:37:04.920 Okay.

00:37:05.320 Next question is from Sam.

00:37:06.580 I've been thinking about this a lot in terms of like how people have talked about heated

00:37:10.120 rivalry.

00:37:11.360 So Sam wants your thoughts.

00:37:12.900 something she's noticed. What do you think about the presence of conversion therapy as a staple

00:37:18.300 of American queer cinema and literature? Right? Like part of the celebration of heated rivalry

00:37:24.480 is that it's a queer love story without tragedy. Yeah. I mean, I'm huge heated rivalry fan. Love

00:37:31.860 it. And I loved that it was a happy queer story. And I do think we need those. I think those are

00:37:37.840 necessary because not every queer story, thank God, is a traumatic one. But to the specific

00:37:44.900 question on conversion therapy, I think it is so important for it to still be present. I mean,

00:37:49.880 like, but I'm a cheerleader, boy erased, prayers for Bobby. I think it's important because one,

00:37:56.620 it validates people's experiences that have been through it. But second, it continues to keep it

00:38:01.900 in people's minds to see that this is still a reality that people go through and experience.

00:38:06.460 and it can help people understand what folks go through,

00:38:10.160 but also give people who don't have

00:38:12.660 those particular challenges compassion

00:38:14.460 for people that have gone through it.

00:38:16.020 And so those stories are needed.

00:38:18.420 And I think that maybe where we can kind of pivot

00:38:21.680 a little bit there is just that like,

00:38:23.840 yeah, let's talk about what happened,

00:38:25.480 but then like, let's also show the other side.

00:38:27.580 You know, what is life like after?

00:38:29.100 And I mean, it's part of the reason why I wrote my book,

00:38:31.640 but I think just to kind of show people like,

00:38:34.360 yes, it's a horrible thing that happens,

00:38:35.700 but you don't have to stay there.

00:38:37.480 You can thrive and be successful outside of there.

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00:41:23.700 So the thing that I'm really excited about is now that I have this primary care provider,

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00:43:01.660 Okay, so our next two questions are from people seeking some advice about navigating the prevalence

00:43:06.180 of this so-called therapy.

00:43:07.720 This is our Ask An Anything segment for this week, and usually it's just for paid subscribers.

00:43:12.900 But this week, we're giving everyone access to it. Felt Important.

00:43:15.920 First, let's hear from JD.

00:43:17.840 I'm thinking about people who think they're going to good therapy and go to therapy with genuinely conflicted feelings about their own sexuality.

00:43:26.780 Maybe perhaps don't want to be gay. They have internalized homophobia.

00:43:30.340 what's the tell how would they know that they're getting good support that would work with their

00:43:38.140 own internal confliction and not actually just be the goal of the therapy to do some kind of

00:43:44.340 conversion therapy love this question how would you identify some of these tells i guess very

00:43:51.060 important question i think that a real therapist is focused on your well-being in your integration

00:43:58.420 and they don't come to you with a particular agenda

00:44:02.920 or an end point.

00:44:04.340 They want to help you as a human flourish.

00:44:07.160 They want to help you grow. 0.72

00:44:09.120 And so I think seeking out affirming therapy

00:44:12.640 where they're looking at you as a whole person

00:44:15.560 and not a problem to be solved is super important.

00:44:18.740 In my experience in conversion therapy,

00:44:21.440 we did mine through my past and look through my past.

00:44:25.280 And a lot of conversion therapy

00:44:26.680 is kind of centered around this idea that like you're the result of trauma or the result of

00:44:31.760 bad things that happened to you. And so all of that was like weaponized against me to be the

00:44:37.760 reason why I, to explain the reason why I turned out the way that I did. And so I would say that

00:44:42.920 if you're in a therapeutic setting, like you obviously have to talk about your past and things

00:44:46.500 that happened to you because that does impact who we become today. But if it's used in a way to

00:44:51.000 pathologize you or is used to say like, okay, now we've got to correct that because X, Y, or Z,

00:44:56.680 I think that would be a red flag. I also think that they should be a licensed therapist also.

00:45:04.420 Yeah. Amazing idea, right?

00:45:06.680 Right. And I mean, and that's the thing. A lot of people go to their pastors or their

00:45:11.900 religious community. And I think it is important to have someone that's aligned with your personal

00:45:16.560 values, but like, are they licensed? Are they legitimate? And to answer that specific question

00:45:22.400 about internalized homophobia, I think it's really important to have those conversations

00:45:27.600 and to work through that therapeutically.

00:45:29.440 And I think that a good therapist holds space for that ambivalence without pointing you

00:45:34.660 in a particular direction and will just kind of help you discover what it is that you might

00:45:40.320 be questioning but isn't armed with this agenda to try to make you straight.

00:45:44.600 I think anything that tells you you have to change who you are at a cellular, spiritual

00:45:50.880 level, whatever. If they say that that's broken, I think you need to head out the door because

00:45:56.960 a good therapist wants to help you be whole. Okay. This is a personal question, but do you

00:46:01.820 feel like you now know the difference between a quack conversion therapist? Like, do you have

00:46:08.440 good therapy now? I guess. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, an important point to put there is it took

00:46:14.520 me a long time to be trusting of another therapist. Because I write about this, but

00:46:20.880 the last therapist that I saw was part of a Christian therapy group. So he wasn't on paper

00:46:28.060 a conversion therapy therapist, but he was part of a Christian counseling group, which held to a

00:46:32.900 very particular viewpoint. And so I was in his chair for two years before I dropped out of

00:46:39.700 conversion therapy, wrestling and struggling and going through it. And when I finally broke down

00:46:46.760 and said, I don't think I can do this anymore, he said, oh my God, I've been waiting for this

00:46:51.240 moment. I'm so proud of you. And I was like, wait, what? And he was like, well, I personally

00:46:57.480 am gay affirming, but like the counseling center has a very particular view on that issue. And you

00:47:04.720 came here wanting help with that. And so I didn't feel it was my place to enforce that upon you. But

00:47:11.760 now we can really get to work. And I was like, absolutely not. If you sat here for the last two

00:47:18.380 years and watched me almost end my life and not say anything and not try to help me, no way am I

00:47:26.860 going to carry on with you. So it took me some time before I finally worked up the courage to

00:47:33.780 see a real licensed therapist. But I have been in therapy since, but it took a minute.

00:47:41.620 Do you ever talk to your therapist about your past therapists?

00:47:44.620 Oh, yeah, absolutely. 1.00

00:47:46.340 I bet they're like, what the fuck? 0.99

00:47:48.680 I'm a lot of fun for any therapist I work with. There's a lot of layers there. 1.00

00:47:54.260 Okay. So how were you able to be like, okay, this isn't working for me? Basically,

00:47:58.880 like, I'm done with this code switching or pretending? What was the break?

00:48:04.400 Yeah, it was a real break. I was in conversion therapy for eight years total, and it was not

00:48:13.520 working. And I decided that I was working in churches. I was working for evangelical Christian

00:48:20.440 megachurches. And part of me thought, well, maybe if I just lose myself in my work, none of this

00:48:26.700 will matter. And I started to become a very, very minor Christian celebrity, but was traveling and

00:48:34.160 speaking at conferences. And I remember being in an arena filled with Christian leaders and seeing

00:48:43.240 the crowd rise to their feet and cheer when the speaker said that we needed more men in churches 0.98

00:48:50.100 and no more sissies and we needed to fight against gay marriage and just feeling crushed inside 0.96

00:48:57.520 because I knew if they knew the truth of who I was, I would be ostracized. And I came home from 1.00

00:49:04.200 that and just felt the weight of the world on my shoulders and was like I can either end my life

00:49:15.120 now, or I can try to figure out how to live my life differently. And instead of trying to fight

00:49:22.820 this, figure out how to integrate it. But that decision did not happen quickly. I was in bed

00:49:29.020 for about four days. It was a nervous breakdown. And I went to see a doctor and explained what

00:49:36.380 happened. And he's like, well, you've had a breakdown. And so what's causing this? And I was

00:49:40.980 like, well, I've been in conversion therapy for eight years and I think I just need to come out.

00:49:46.220 And that was the beginning. But the one thing I think it's important to say is when I walked out

00:49:52.660 of the therapist's office for the last time was not the moment I was free. That was just the

00:49:58.340 beginning of a very, very long journey because this stuff rewired me to the core. And so it took

00:50:05.040 a long time for me to untangle all of those wires that is the tragedy right like that is

00:50:12.220 the deep deep tragedy is that the way that this affirms hating yourself like teaches you to hate

00:50:18.860 yourself it takes so long to unlearn that yeah unlearn that and then also learn to trust your

00:50:24.960 intuition and all of that yeah yeah our last question is looking for some advice comes from

00:50:32.400 someone who wants to remain anonymous. So Melody's going to read it. My brother is a fundamentalist

00:50:37.100 who draws a hard line on sexuality and gender. His kids are banned from reading books with even

00:50:42.340 vaguely LGBTQ content. His daughters aren't allowed to wear pants, etc. I'm a queer affirming liberal

00:50:48.760 Christian with two queer kids. My brother doesn't know how my kids identify, but I know it won't 0.67

00:50:53.420 stay that way forever. I hold out a tiny bit of hope, but not much that his views will change.

00:50:58.660 What I really want, though, is for my little nieces and nephews to grow up, turn away from their parents' teachings, and accept their beloved cousins as they are.

00:51:06.780 I'm also terrified that if one of my nibblings is queer, they'll be forced to hide or be sent to conversion therapy.

00:51:12.800 Our family dynamics don't allow for me to be overt.

00:51:15.880 If I started telling the kiddos it's okay to be gay, they'd likely be banned from seeing me.

00:51:20.600 So how do I lay the groundwork for them to see possibilities beyond what their parents have limited them to while they're still kids?

00:51:26.900 And how do I protect my own kids in the process?

00:51:31.160 This is really heavy and hard, but I'm glad that we're talking about it.

00:51:36.100 So what do you think?

00:51:37.700 First of all, I am so grateful that your children have you as a parent who is loving and affirming

00:51:45.900 of them and that will change their lives.

00:51:51.100 And so I just want to say, first of all, like, I'm so, so grateful that your children have

00:51:55.220 you and that your nibblings have you in their lives as well. And this is complicated. And I

00:52:02.180 would say I'm in the same position with certain children in my life that consider me their gunkle

00:52:08.360 Tim. And I would say that just your constant presence as a loving person in their life makes

00:52:17.560 all of the difference. And you don't need to be overt. You don't need to be outspoken. I think

00:52:23.520 just saying like, hey, I'm always here for you. Hey, if you ever need anything, you can always

00:52:29.480 call here or you're always welcome in our home anytime. I think just affirming the presence

00:52:35.360 that you can bring into their lives. My oldest sister definitely broke the mold of my family's

00:52:42.560 structure. And when I was really young, I distinctly remember a conversation she had with

00:52:47.980 me when I was probably about 12 or 13. I didn't really have the language to understand then

00:52:54.000 that I was gay, but she obviously saw it in me. And I remember her saying,

00:52:59.120 Tim, it might be hard for you right now. You might not feel like you fit in,

00:53:03.080 but I promise you in college and once you get out of here, you're going to make a lot of friends

00:53:07.160 and people are going to love you. And there's going to be people who understand you. And like,

00:53:11.540 And I didn't understand the depth of what she meant, but I absolutely connected with

00:53:19.520 what she was saying because I knew there was something different about me then.

00:53:23.740 And so that gave me a little bit of spark of hope to know my teenage years might be

00:53:28.700 a little bit difficult, but she said, if I get through this, I'm going to find my people.

00:53:34.000 And so that really stuck with me.

00:53:35.780 And then in regards to your children and then the relationship that they have with your family, kids notice things.

00:53:47.060 Kids are very, very smart.

00:53:48.860 And they notice when things are different or they just pick up on things.

00:53:53.680 And my youngest nephew is six years old.

00:53:57.040 And my brother called me one day and was just like, well, he knows now.

00:54:01.740 But I was like, what?

00:54:02.660 And he's like, yeah, just like randomly the other day, he like ran up to us and was like, hey, is Uncle Tim gay? And, you know, he and his wife kind of looked at each other and like, yeah, yeah, he is. And like, we love him. And we think that's incredible. And yada, yada, yada. And he's like, okay, yeah, I thought it was kind of weird. He was into Broadway musicals. Okay. You know, and just like ran off.

00:54:24.700 right and so kids kids get that and so i would say your first and foremost priority though

00:54:32.760 is to care for your children and and make sure that they know how to handle walking into spaces

00:54:39.660 that might not be affirming of them and to know how to navigate the world and leave it up to them

00:54:45.380 to decide when and if they choose to share with other people in their lives and their other cousins

00:54:50.840 what's going on with them. But I will say that boundaries are super important. And if

00:54:57.840 it becomes hostile towards you or towards your children, you're going to need to do the right

00:55:03.820 thing and protect your children. But if you choose to do that, your family is going to have

00:55:09.780 to explain to their children why they can't see their cousins anymore. And so don't put that onus

00:55:15.600 on yourself um but again i'm really really glad that your children have you and that your your

00:55:23.680 nibblings have you as well you know so much of this advice is like universal design advice and

00:55:29.600 so much is like this is something that you should say to any kid in your life that you love right

00:55:34.040 it's like right i am a safe space for you no matter what you're going through no matter what's

00:55:38.640 happening like just saying those things even though sometimes they seem like weird right like

00:55:45.220 one thing that i have started doing with some of my friends kids as they've gotten older is just

00:55:50.500 being like you can always text me like we text about stupid stuff right but it lowers the bar

00:55:55.740 so it's just like oh if i'm feeling something i can text that and maybe like it's just lower stakes 0.75

00:56:02.500 but I think saying those things over and over again

00:56:06.700 places you as this person they can trust

00:56:09.020 a person that loves them

00:56:10.420 no matter what is happening in their lives

00:56:14.580 I'm just so grateful for this book

00:56:17.060 I think that you are

00:56:18.760 this is stuff that people really need to hear

00:56:22.600 like you said this is still happening

00:56:24.800 the number of organizations that are still doing this work

00:56:28.420 and I think so many people know

00:56:30.900 how Christian nationalism is so deeply enmeshed in our current political

00:56:36.120 administration. 1.00

00:56:37.100 And this is one of the most pernicious and harmful ways that it's working.

00:56:41.940 And I'm,

00:56:43.700 I'm scared of what's going to happen next,

00:56:46.040 but I also think like the more that we can have beacons like this and

00:56:49.320 declare ourselves these safe spaces,

00:56:51.340 like it matters.

00:56:52.500 So Tim,

00:56:54.100 where can people find more of you and your book if they want to find more of

00:56:58.120 you on the internet?

00:56:59.460 I hope they do.

00:57:00.120 I am on Instagram threads and I'm like begrudgingly on TikTok. Timothy S. Rodriguez

00:57:07.400 is where you can find me. And then you can find more about the book. It's coming out soon

00:57:12.860 at ConversionTherapyDropoutBook.com. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:57:18.060 Thank you for having me. It's so great to be here.

00:57:24.360 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you

00:57:28.220 get your podcast because we have so many great episodes in the works and I promise you don't

00:57:32.780 want to miss any of them. If you want to suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that

00:57:37.340 surrounds you or submit a question for our subscriber only advice time segment. Go to our

00:57:42.280 Google form at tinyurl.com slash culture study pod, or check the show notes for a link. And if

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00:58:03.440 The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Rowell.

00:58:07.780 Our music is by Poddington Bear.

00:58:09.700 You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodias47, and the show

00:58:15.100 at Culture Study Pod.

00:58:22.360 I bet you're great on TikTok.

00:58:24.360 I'm leaning into it.

00:58:26.600 I don't love it, but I'm leaning into it.

00:58:29.520 I feel like you should do some Hillsong renditions.

00:58:34.240 I mean, I was cackling to myself thinking about lip syncing for your life to Darling Check.

00:58:41.840 Right.

00:58:42.060 Okay, this is the one song I would love to do in drag is Jackie Velasquez, On My Knees.

00:58:51.460 if you re-listen to that

00:58:55.380 I don't know how

00:58:56.560 but there's power

00:58:58.080 when I'm on my knees

00:59:00.000 I'm begging you

00:59:01.540 also you said

00:59:02.960 like something about

00:59:04.180 stumbling and falling

00:59:05.460 I was like

00:59:05.920 what if I stumble

00:59:06.820 what if I fall

00:59:07.700 what if I've been 0.92

00:59:08.300 maybe fools of us all 0.56

Culture Study Podcast - April 08, 2026

Surviving Eight Years of Conversion Therapy

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