00:05:47.580So then, with the release of 1989 in 2014, that sort of solidified her movement from country to fully pop.
00:05:55.820I also was not a country music listener in general, so I don't know why I felt like I needed to beef with her.
00:06:00.360but when 1989 came out I was out of town and I had a rental car and I was like driving all over
00:06:08.320and kept hearing this really catchy song on the radio and I would shazam it and they'd be like
00:06:14.620god damn it it's Taylor Swift what song was it shake it off no my least favorite Taylor Swift0.98
00:06:22.800I know I know but I was like this is so catchy god oh shit it's Taylor Swift and then remember0.99
00:06:29.080how Starbucks used to give out the little cards that were like a free iTunes download? I got one0.96
00:06:35.480of those for the song This Love, also from 1989. I was like, okay, well, now I like two Taylor Swift
00:06:41.280songs. And then one of my friends told me I had to listen to Out of the Woods. And after I listened
00:06:46.660to that, I was just like, okay, I'm downloading this album. No one can know. Like, this is so
00:06:52.940against my personal brand that I like this album but once I started opening up to other friends
00:06:59.620being like I like this album they're like okay you're ready to listen to her older stuff now
00:07:04.440and so I started doing a deep dive into the back catalog and was like she's really on to something
00:07:10.640and I didn't know that at the same time my sister who I'm very close to was having a similar
00:07:16.640experience with Shake It Off where she would also be like this is catchy who is this so it's like
00:07:21.160something in our DNA so then we secretly started liking Taylor Swift together and then got more
00:07:26.860brave about sharing our truth with others and so the two of us went to the 1989 tour in 2015 and
00:07:34.460then sort of descended from there I went to the reputation tour in 2018 three times and that was
00:07:43.520about the time Leah and I started being friends and I'm pretty sure Taylor was like a big reason
00:07:48.540that we started our own like independent friendship outside of the people that introduced us.
00:07:54.260Okay. So I was going to share some of my history, but I think it would actually be better
00:07:59.080positioned in some of our responses to these questions because we have a ton and I think we
00:08:06.080want to cover as many as possible. I will say that just before we all start, I am so glad that we have
00:08:12.240two like real Swifties here who have the minutiae of information. And I might take just slightly
00:08:19.180more of a objective celebrity studies posture here than I normally would only to play the foil.
00:08:28.500So yeah, just understand that. I also want to note that right now Melody is wearing a sweatshirt0.90
00:08:33.400that says talk to me about Taylor Swift. I am wearing a sweatshirt that says 1989 Taylor's
00:08:38.460version. And I'm wearing a t-shirt that I will reveal later in our conversation because I know
00:08:44.480there will be an occasion for it. And I am wearing a flannel covered with dog hair. So let's go.
00:08:49.940Very evermore coded. Yes. So let's get into our questions. We're going to start with some general
00:08:57.160questions about Taylor and then get more into her relationship with Travis Kelsey just a little bit
00:09:01.360later. So first up, let's hear from Tabitha. Melody, will you read this question for us?
00:09:05.860Why is Taylor Swift so famous slash popular now? In middle school, I used to get bullied for liking
00:09:12.220her music, and now my former bullies are posting on Instagram about her heirs to her concert or
00:09:17.180the latest album. I'm not complaining, but genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on
00:09:21.700why she has become such a cultural icon. So how old do you think Tabitha is? If she liked her0.73
00:09:28.100in middle school she's probably in her late 20s late 20s early 30s Taylor and I are about the
00:09:36.760same age we're six months apart and I'm 34 she just turned 34 yeah so her music started coming
00:09:42.860out when I was in high school okay so yeah so here is my theory she was very cringe if you were
00:09:49.480also in high school when like teardrops on my guitar came out or Tim McGraw like these songs
00:09:55.500Whereas I was in my late 20s, and to me, it was coded as like, oh, this is actually kind of like high school, early college nostalgic for me, right?
00:12:12.880one of the most like devastating and like saddest songs ever in like 20 minutes while sitting and
00:12:17.040eating raisins in her kitchen and you know it took the fact that like she put together an album of the
00:12:23.100year grammy award winning album during the pandemic when most people were just like sitting around
00:12:28.800home in their pajamas eating doritos and it's like oh wow taylor swift did that during a pandemic i
00:12:34.700think and you know looked into a genre that you know more dudes liked for the world to kind of
00:12:40.960come around to her and that was I think a point at which she started transcending into this new
00:12:47.240dimension of fame I'll also say that I think she has become more interesting to casual previously
00:12:56.160casual fans like myself as her feminism has evolved right as her politics have evolved so to0.97
00:13:03.000me she was less interesting when she was really feeding into these like heterosexual narrative1.00
00:13:08.740like white horse right it's just like very classic almost disney heroine and that was1.00
00:13:15.180translated in the aesthetics of like the video and like how she was how she was dressing and
00:13:19.460that sort of thing at the time and i think too and like i actually feel a lot of like empathy
00:13:25.540sympathy for her about this period of time like in around shake it off like when she was constantly
00:13:32.560being paparazzi'd stepping out of her apartment in new york and i was like she's just upholding
00:13:38.720these standards in a way that I didn't find interesting and then I think she's gotten she's0.77
00:13:44.980become more musically complex in ways that I think like we should be careful about being like oh like
00:13:51.100she's done more things that like are coded as masculine within the music world then that makes
00:13:55.880her more interesting but I just like I think her music like she has more albums it's more like
00:14:00.540there's more things there's more places points of connection for me personally yeah you know
00:14:06.200Definitely. I mean, you know, contrasting Whitehorse with Lavender Haze, you know,
00:14:10.900people only see like a one night stand or a wife. I mean, that's a very different perspective that,
00:14:16.280you know, she brings to the later music. Okay. So our next question, and this is actually a
00:14:20.880really great piggyback onto our last one. This is from Laura. Like many of us, I'm deeply curious
00:14:26.180about how Taylor Swift went from normal famous to so, so, so famous during the pandemic and what
00:14:32.160it might say about how we're valuing women today. Just a few years ago, she was often still perceived
00:14:37.440as mean, catty, sleeping around too much. And these misogynistic views seem to have been really
00:14:43.940left by the wayside. How did this happen in just a few years? Is this because re-recording her old
00:14:49.900albums has coincided with the girlification of culture? Is it because she now rarely gives
00:14:54.960interviews and it's easier for us to love women when we can just project onto them? Or has she1.00
00:15:00.240just perfectly tapped into the Easter egg online discourse machine. I'm personally pretty deep on
00:15:06.420Gaylor, so I have my own thoughts, even though Travis Kelsey seems nice. But I'm curious to hear
00:15:10.980what you all think. There's so much going on in this question. Usually, Melody, you unpack these
00:15:18.260for me to read, be like, okay, guys, let's start with this one. So where would you start with this
00:15:23.300question? I mean, we kind of already talked about going from normal famous to so, so, so famous.
00:15:29.260Yeah. And a little bit about what it says about how we value women. What about this question of
00:15:36.880does revisiting her old albums coincide with the girlification of culture? I think that's0.97
00:15:42.520a really interesting theory. You know, I am hesitant to pronounce that we have reached this
00:15:49.140point where culture is girlified as if this is like a stable status quo in which like things
00:15:57.000girls and women do and girls and women like will be valued and not like devalued just for that0.96
00:16:02.940reason. But I do think that there is something to the observation that, you know, these re-records
00:16:08.960and this tour coincided with the summer of Barbie, right? And the fall of Roe versus Wade and
00:16:15.860Beyonce's Renaissance tour and like a lot happening that centered sometimes like forcibly and
00:16:22.980negatively the experiences and lives of women. But that has always been, I think, the appeal of
00:16:31.560Taylor, but also what led people to criticize her is her music has always been about the experience
00:16:40.200and the inner lives of girls and women. And, you know, that's not just romantic, you know,
00:16:47.320it's interpersonal and friendship, it's business, it's, you know, all of the range.
00:16:51.280And I think that has always been part of the appeal. And maybe at some points in time, it is more acceptable to say it's actually really cool for this person to be able to describe and think about what it's like to be a girl and woman at various stages in their life and various experiences.
00:17:12.360um but i think it would be impossible to identify one explanation or one reason why she went from
00:17:19.020famous to super famous i think it's a bunch of different things i think from a star studies
00:17:23.300perspective those labels that this question asker laura affixes to her star image circa 2016 so like
00:17:34.180mean sharp sleeping around too much like i would say kind of like nodding on the joke0.99
00:17:39.840as well like there's just there are different valances that were floating around her during1.00
00:17:44.900that time this was also around when did she first like make a political stance she sowed the seeds0.76
00:17:52.240of allyship and welcome to new york in 1989 and then but she didn't like speak like she didn't
00:18:00.280endorse anyone right because there was a lot of questions i remember a lot of questions about like
00:18:05.980is taylor swift a republican like can you imagine that now like that seems very odd to me
00:18:12.480there are all of those things that were like in the larger constellation of like what taylor swift
00:18:19.640means and then the pandemic i think softened her right like added these softened balances to her
00:18:28.720and that's in everything from the way that she looks on the cover of those albums like peak
00:18:34.900french braid like i don't know just like a very words yes and then also even the sounds of those
00:18:43.380albums the sentiment of them and in so many different ways added something and then i think
00:18:49.900this whole current romantic subplot is making her you know the question asker says like it's so easy
00:18:58.640to like someone when you can project onto them to some extent right and this is a particular
00:19:05.500type of narrative with travis kelsey that is like it's just exquisite to try to map yourself onto it
00:19:14.320right yeah so those are my scattered thoughts go melody yeah i've got another thought too and that's
00:19:20.780with folklore and evermore coming out in 2020 that was also when tiktok really took off in
00:19:27.960the united states and there is a very deep and wide swifty subculture on tiktok like there are
00:19:37.760swift talk influencers and i think that's where my fandom went from like i really like her to like
00:19:45.920i'm a nut it's like it is this space where people are sharing their breadth of knowledge that
00:19:55.120they've gained over the years from being a fan and helping draw the connections between albums
00:20:00.700and lyrics or drawing the connections between this lyric might be about this person that was
00:20:06.480in a paparazzi picture in 2013. How do we know? And so you really get submerged into the lore
00:20:14.080on TikTok that I think definitely deepened my appreciation and my understanding of her
00:20:19.740whole career since i was late coming to the game yeah i would also say that that you know i love
00:20:25.740the fact that this question asker posits so many different theories and then it's like uh and also
00:20:32.520i just should note that i'm very into hashtag gayler like that emphasizes to me that swift
00:20:39.680herself is what um a star studies person would call polysemic that means that like there are so0.97
00:20:45.060many different ways to read her. Her text has so many different meanings. And so she has developed
00:20:52.120many more entry points for fandom in terms of like, I am a fan of Gaylor, which means I am a
00:21:00.800fan of her in that way. Yeah. There might be many different ways of reading texts, but Evermore is
00:21:07.600Emily Dickinson all the way down and I will die on that hill. Yeah. Should we just define Gaylor
00:21:15.040Taylor quickly yes we should so Leah and I also both identify as Gaylers although she held out
00:21:22.300on me for a long time and put up with like a lot of dumb things I texted her about like maybe
00:21:26.100Taylor and Joe are like secretly married and she just like no I don't think so
00:21:29.840but Gayler is the idea that Taylor Swift is queer and throughout her lyrics there are a lot of0.94
00:21:40.780phrases and words that have historically queer meanings and I think that we are obligated to
00:21:49.320view those phrases and lyrics through a queer lens because it is hearkening back to when they0.89
00:21:57.680were used to like flag being queer right so I appreciate viewing her lyrics through a queer
00:22:04.980lens and i think it adds a depth that is not necessarily present in just a straight reading
00:22:12.500of her lyrics um but anyways that's what gaylor is is people who think taylor is queer to varying
00:22:18.860levels of conspiracy that go along with that right like some people think that basically all of these
00:22:25.240heterosexual relationships are like uh what's the word i'm looking for um beards right yeah
00:22:32.240some people think that and no it's not beard because beard is the other way it's
00:22:36.420purses i think they're also used yeah they still call it bearding historically they were called
00:22:40.860purses oh in like classic hollywood that's more fun uh and then some people who think just that
00:22:49.200she is queer as in like she also has relationships with women right yeah right there's like different
00:22:55.820ways that you can interpret that yeah varying levels of conspiracy okay so this is a great
00:23:01.520segue into our next question, which is from Evan. What's the deal with celebrity romance and
00:23:07.680sexuality conspiracy theories? Like, why are they so compelling? And when did they go from
00:23:12.420harmless, speculating fun to we are worried for you QAnon territory? I'm thinking of this1.00
00:23:19.120particularly because even while it seems like the whole world is talking about Taylor Swift
00:23:23.060and Travis Kelsey, my group chat is debating Gaylor and which 1989 vault songs might be about
00:23:28.660Karlie Kloss. All right. What do you think? So first of all, none of the 1989 vault tracks are
00:23:34.620about Karlie Kloss. They may be about Diana Agron. But that is not the point of this question.
00:23:41.880Several of them are about Harry Styles. Yes. Like they just are. Yes. So I think as far as like
00:23:49.940what's the deal with celebrity romance and sexuality conspiracy theories, I think it is
00:23:54.960because we are aware of the PR apparatus and it is made visible in a way that it didn't
00:24:01.200used to be visible, probably because of social media. And so we are sort of reading through
00:24:08.480the veneer of how celebrities are choosing to present themselves and trying to find what
00:24:14.120the actual truth might be. And I do think Taylor is especially suited to this kind of
00:24:20.380discussion because she is known for planting easter eggs and so the question with anything
00:24:28.060Taylor Swift related is is this an easter egg is this a coincidence is this nothing at all right
00:24:34.540and historically she used easter eggs to like hint at forthcoming albums but now people are like
00:24:40.340ah she was wearing a pinky ring in that picture easter egg for being a lesbian do people think
00:24:46.940that she queerbaits i think some people you know have voiced that um but i think it's complicated
00:24:54.660because on some level like once this subculture of the fandom develops diminishing it or you know
00:25:03.360dismissing it is itself you know like could be problematic right because i think often the gay
00:25:11.020lores right are unfairly criticized and attacked on social media you know by people who call
00:25:17.140themselves het lores and you know because like taylor is like very open now about being you know
00:25:24.940an ally to the lgbt community i don't think like she wants to do anything that could be seen as
00:25:32.040anti-lgbt um and so you know is she queer baiting is she you know engaging with a sect of her fandom
00:25:40.780Is she dropping Easter eggs? You know, I think different people kind of would identify it like different points in that spectrum, much like sexuality exists. But I don't think of it as as queer painting, really.
00:25:53.240It reminds me, to some extent, and I wonder if this is like a productive comparison, but a long time ago, someone asked George Clooney what he thinks about persistent rumors at the time that he was gay. And I always thought his answer was really interesting, which was that he said something along the lines of, if that makes people happy, who am I to say that that's not the case, essentially?
00:26:17.340right like he didn't want to shut down any readings of him and and and you know if i'm
00:26:25.340remembering correctly like maybe there was part of it that kind of seemed like let people have
00:26:30.780their fun which is a little bit infantilizing um but i do think that like just that idea
00:26:35.900that a star doesn't need to doesn't have a responsibility to shut down the ways that
00:26:43.060people read them like that that's really interesting right so i i understand that she
00:26:48.660is actually she's leaving her image open for interpretation and also like getting back to
00:26:54.360something melody said about like taylor being a kind of perfect candidate for this given that
00:26:58.940she is into easter eggs taylor is also someone who cultivates you know a very personal relationship
00:27:04.080with her fans right performing surprise songs at the eras tour right gives people a sense that
00:27:09.880she is performing this special song for you right she holds secret sessions you know in which she
00:27:15.240invites certain fans to like listen to albums and so that aspect of her relationship with her fans
00:27:22.700I think also opens up to again like imagining parts of her or imagining like other aspects of
00:27:29.620her that you know again you might like do with other people. Taylor also has a very good publicist
00:27:36.760who is part of the like extended universe and she is very savvy at shutting down rumors about0.88
00:27:44.780herself that she doesn't appreciate and when they do the PR it's like very clear that they're doing
00:27:51.860it and I do think if Taylor came out and was like no I'm actually very straight I do think there
00:27:58.800would be backlash and accusations of queer baiting because she would have been appropriating a lot of
00:28:05.580queer culture and so the yes the music video for you need to calm down that is full of like1.00
00:28:10.560the queer eye guys and famous drag queens and like so many famous gay celebrities was she just using0.66
00:28:16.140them as props or is she saying like i'm actually one of them and i also don't think i just want to
00:28:22.420be clear i don't think that she owes anybody a coming out statement no i i personally think
00:28:28.340she is as out as she wants to be in that she you know like wears a wig that's the color of the bi
00:28:37.640pride flag she wears a bracelet that says proud she rides a rainbow unicorn kitty wearing a0.56
00:28:44.840rainbow t-shirt in the miss americana documentary she says gay pride country western boots cats
00:28:51.780all of the things that make me me so yeah like the first song on midnights is lavender haze and
00:29:00.640like all of the videos right are like taylor bleeding purple um and you know and just like
00:29:08.840on the evermore bit in particular i mean again this is someone who is extremely detail oriented
00:29:14.260She announced Evermore on December 10th, Emily Dickinson's birthday.
00:29:20.460Emily Dickinson, right, her writings reveal she had an extremely close relationship with her sister-in-law, Susan Gilbert.
00:29:27.740And, you know, one of Emily's poems that is clearly about Susan Gilbert is One Sister Have I in Our House.
00:29:35.700And the end of that poem is Sue, forevermore.
00:29:41.060Like there are so many overlaps between, you know, queer culture and her albums, whether it is lines like you can hear a hairpin drop or, you know, whatever that, you know, I'm with Melody on this one.
00:29:55.260The last thing I'll say is that in studies of gossip culture, it's really interesting that what people have found, what scholars have found is that there is a certain percentage of the population, like around 20 percent, that just uncritically consume any information that's coming from celebrities.
00:30:12.360Like they read the magazines, they watch TikTok, whatever they're like, the publicity that enters into my brain, that's true.
00:30:20.300And then there's like a middle swath that maybe like looks at some stuff and thinks about, oh, well, they're stars like this is part of the publicity apparatus to some extent.
00:30:30.080And then there's on the other side, there is a swath of people who are who are puzzlers, right?
00:30:45.420Like you could say that to some extent about people who get into something like QAnon.
00:30:49.780They're puzzlers. The danger is when it becomes dangerous to other people or threatens democracy or it leads to like violence or threats of violence. Right. Like that's where I think, you know, by believing that Taylor is queer, like that does not unsettle our understanding of like our demeanor. I don't know. You know what I mean?
00:31:14.260Yes. Yes. That's such a helpful framework for thinking about this, because part of Evan's question is, when does it go from harmless to QAnon territory? And I like to think of myself as in that middle tier that you described of like, I'm just taking the information as it comes while also like seeing through the veneer.
00:31:34.240but there there are definitely people who are very online who are like she and blake lively are
00:31:41.420actually married and those are her children not ryan reynolds and like because she was in this
00:31:47.400picture with zoe kravitz they are together and it's the same kind of like the stuff that she
00:31:52.380went through in like her early 20s with like any man was in the same room as her people are like0.89
00:31:57.520they're together it there is a subset of gaylers who take that same approach with all of the women0.92
00:32:02.780that she's ever been around yeah and I would just underline that there is a lot of precedence for0.96
00:32:07.420this sort of gossip thinking it is facilitated and uh expanded by the internet but like anyone
00:32:17.580who was around in 2004 2005 2006 and understood like the power that Perez Hilton had over the
00:32:25.160Tom Cruise narrative like this is not this is not in any way new all right next question I know
00:32:30.700that you are both so excited to answer this this one comes from jen who's a paid subscriber meaning
00:32:36.180she got to submit this question through a special google form which put her at the front of the line
00:32:40.560being a paid subscriber is like having the fast pass at disneyland or something like that okay
00:32:45.920let's hear it what was with the maddie healy situation and why have we collectively forgotten
00:32:51.520this misstep i know your topic is taylor and travis but i have to think that part of the
00:32:55.880genesis of this relationship was a PR need to bury Maddie, no? Which it seems to have done extremely
00:33:01.560well. All right. First of all, she should have burned Maddie Healy during the Willow Witch
00:33:07.720segment after they broke up. It's my one note on the heirs tour, in addition to a few recommended
00:33:12.920song editions. But I mean, look, everyone is entitled to weird rebounds and missteps after
00:33:21.400the demise of a long-term relationship so i don't know that we're so much like forgetting it as just
00:33:27.380like allowing her to do what like every other you know like 30 something woman does um when you know
00:33:34.720their relationship status changes um again i have no love lost for maddie healy i think he's
00:33:41.740disgusting um and did not like it when you know she was ostensibly pictured with him um but
00:33:49.980you know again girl's gonna do what girl's gonna do when okay i want to situate the maddie healy
00:33:56.780rumors or like dating with this new information that we have about when she and travis started0.98
00:34:04.040hanging out there's no overlap there's yeah there's no overlap yeah because she was broken
00:34:08.520up with maddie um when she performed the lakes i think in it was at chicago maybe um but it was
00:34:17.680after nashville and before um i saw her in detroit and that was in june um so there's just no overlap
00:34:28.000it was yeah their whole thing it only lasted maybe about a month and i like i this was my roman empire
00:34:34.900at the time like i was spending so much time thinking about it and like definitely felt weird
00:34:39.960about listening to her music just if you don't know the maddie healy situation the tldr is he's
00:34:45.960the front man for the 1975 and he's just very gross and racist and said horrible things about
00:34:53.120ice spice that and then taylor like did a collab with ice spice and he also was on a podcast0.95
00:34:58.840laughing about some i don't even know the adjective i want about his taste in porn
00:35:05.920and very like demeaning upsetting kinds of porn and then taylor is like dating him and everybody0.59
00:35:14.600is up in arms of like how could she date somebody who is so gross and i should say we don't actually
00:35:21.180know that they were dating the conclusion that i came to was i thought that they were collaborating
00:35:27.700for a vault track on 1989 because for the speak now re-release she collaborated with artists that
00:35:33.360she liked at that time in her life she was a big fan of the 1975 around the 1989 era i thought
00:35:40.420they're collaborating and also hooking up and it's just like not that deep yeah um and i i stand by
00:35:47.500that but to answer or to sort of get at jen's question i agree with leah that i don't think
00:35:54.420we have forgotten the misstep and i think we're just like i don't really know what that was about
00:35:58.720um but i don't necessarily think i think if travis was meant to cover the sins of maddie
00:36:08.800healy it would have been a much faster turnaround oh yeah yeah yeah for sure well and the other
00:36:13.880thing i would say why am i blanking on the name of taylor's public i wanted to say like tree pain
00:36:18.260tree pain i wanted i thought that i was like is it tree pain i was like no that's a joke
00:36:23.360uh no tree pain i think would have more effectively vetted that relationship if she thought it was
00:36:32.480going to be something that was in any way bigger right like they would have countered it in a more1.00
00:36:37.580effective way so my neighbor actually works in music publicity for you know much smaller artists
00:36:45.000but I texted her at the time and I was like can you please explain this to me from a PR standpoint
00:36:50.140like what do you think is happening behind the scenes and she was like look like all we can
00:36:54.840really do as PR is like tell them what we think the best course of action is and then whatever
00:37:00.520choice they want to make is still their choice and we just like do the best we can yeah and so
00:37:05.280yeah maybe tree knew everything and was like girl dump him and taylor's like it's not that big of a
00:37:09.820deal like we don't know yeah right yeah that's the thing is this is very different than when
00:37:16.720someone's like almost in a spend golly relationship with their publicist right who they're when their
00:37:21.800publicist like and now you will date this person right it's like and now robert pence and you will
00:37:26.220date kristen stewart like and it will be good for your career it's like that is not the level that
00:37:31.200we're talking about okay we promised you this episode would be about taylor and travis so let's
00:37:35.400get to that now our first question is from jane and melody's gonna read it did travis kelsey hook
00:37:40.840up with taylor just to plug his line of frozen meals at walmart i mean i don't think it's just
00:37:47.120for the frozen meals he also has a podcast um and sells jerseys and other things too i mean
00:37:56.660I guess I'd just say kind of like two things about this question.
00:38:01.680One is, as we were talking about when we were watching the TikTok video, I mean, Travis
00:38:07.720Kelsey seems to really want to be Taylor Swift's boyfriend, you know, and I think he wants
00:38:14.840to be her boyfriend for many different reasons.
00:38:18.500and one of those reasons is probably she's a really big star and he thinks that's cool um you
00:38:26.520know he also gave you know an interview to the wall street journal which he's like gosh she's
00:38:30.960like really smart and uses these big words that i don't know what they are and like words he doesn't
00:38:36.500know how to spell like squirrel um and you know other things too so you know i think there are
00:38:42.880there seem to be a lot of things about Taylor that he likes about her.
00:38:48.360I like the fact that he likes some of these things about her,
00:38:51.740like the fact that she's smart, the fact that she's very successful,
00:38:55.900you know, the fact that she is very into her job.
00:38:59.000And I think he likes being able to be in a public relationship with her
00:39:04.120because he also likes being famous and in the public eye.
00:39:08.260And so, you know, as always, I think there are many different reasons why people are attracted to someone else, why they want to be with someone else.
00:39:18.080But I don't think it's just because he wants to sell frozen meals.
00:39:23.420I am, however, really looking forward to whatever songs she writes about Travis Kelsey.
00:39:30.920Like, I want the song about the lyric change now, and I want it, like, ASAP, because, I mean, no offense to your husband, Melody, Travis Kelsey is, like, not very interesting to me.
00:39:48.200But like, this is one of Taylor's greatest talents. And it partially bothers me when, you know, podcasts or media about Taylor focus on her relationships, because the guys she dates aren't interesting. Like, Matty Healy, right? Like, he's like, interesting in a negative way. This might offend people, but Harry Styles is not interesting. Like, he had good hair, and then he cut it off.
00:40:13.760He had an album that was glorified elevator music that somehow beat out Beyonce's renaissance, you know, for album of the year.
00:40:37.740But the point is, is that like I like she imbues these relationships with, you know, such like narrative and lyrical interestingness the same way that she imbues like all aspects of girls and women's lives that people relate to with that same kind of like narrative, lyrical interestingness that like I now find Harry Styles somewhat interesting.
00:41:04.060so interesting I made a t-shirt that says Harry Styles is a lying traitor who can't drive and
00:41:11.700that is the t-shirt I am wearing and again like that is her skill and right it benefits all of
00:41:20.360the dudes she dates way more than anyone you know acknowledges again you have these podcasts talking
00:41:27.500about Harry Styles as if he's like some kind of cool dude he's not cool and it's just so much hate
00:41:33.000meal for this i don't care i'll stand by it all i know you drove us off the road he can't keep his
00:41:39.760wild eyes on the road i i agree that travis kelsey is not that interesting i think that he
00:41:46.900becomes interesting vis-a-vis this romance and vis-a-vis his appreciation for taylor right like
00:41:55.960i i don't know about his like the the ins and outs of his feminist politics but if he is okay
00:42:04.040with taylor being taylor like that that is awesome and taylor has made him interesting
00:42:10.240through the way that they've unrolled this relationship yes right like that is all her
00:42:14.980skill i also would say like no one's like oh did jay-z start dating beyonce so that he could sell
00:42:21.220his next album right right like people start dating other famous people for two reasons one
00:42:27.640they understand whether they realize it or not that fame is helpful for fame but also famous
00:42:34.600people start dating famous people because the for the same reason that like grad students date other
00:42:38.800graduate students right like no one else can understand how weird your life is yes except
00:42:44.360for these other famous people and so they like have this rarefied air which is just very difficult
00:42:50.780for even people who are a step down like joe alwyn to understand what it's like so that that's my0.96
00:42:57.460take our next question is from kelsey regarding taylor and kelsey there were so many tiktoks
00:43:03.540analyzing how he seemed to be keeping her safe and how he's taller than her which must be nice
00:43:08.400for her to feel small it feels like there's a lot to unpack there and i don't really have a question
00:43:13.280it's just an angle to think about with all that i'm also unusually interested in them and i don't
00:43:19.120understand why thanks okay I used to be there's like a theme in this episode I used to be anti
00:43:27.320Travis Kelsey so as mentioned at the top of this episode I live in Kansas City my husband is an
00:43:33.620enormous Chiefs fan he has season tickets I say he has them because like I don't want to go
00:43:39.020although I did recently go with a pair of binoculars so I could watch Taylor yes and I
00:43:45.380thought I just I always thought Travis was like very obnoxious like he's a showboat he is just0.77
00:43:52.420like a big dumb dude and I also couldn't understand like why does he need a podcast what could he0.54
00:43:58.660possibly have to say um which is like you know I'm allowed to think that because I have podcasts0.98
00:44:04.900so when when Taylor first showed up at that Chiefs game in September my phone started blowing up and
00:44:14.080And I was, like, distraught because I was like, first of all, I don't want her to be with another man.
00:45:01.740So this question about how he's tall and it must be nice for her to feel small.
00:45:05.400I feel qualified to answer this because I am 5'10 and my entire life just, like, desperately wanted a man to be taller than me because I never got to feel small.
00:45:18.280Like, I've been this height since, like, seventh grade or something.
00:45:21.820And so I always felt like, as Taylor would say, the monster on the hill because I was, like, always taller than the boys until my senior year of high school.
00:45:30.980and like nobody wanted to go out with me you know like no one ever had a crush on me and
00:45:37.360maybe my personality sucked I don't know but I do think part of it was like I was tall
00:45:42.020and so I of course am like projecting my own feelings about that onto Taylor and also thinking
00:45:48.240about the relationships I've been in where like my boyfriend didn't want me to wear heels because
00:45:52.600I would be taller than him insecure masculinity yeah which somehow became my problem and so I do
00:46:00.120think whether it's shallow or not or problematic or not there is a feeling of relief that comes
00:46:07.080with being somebody taller and bigger than me so i just like i just love that for taylor like
00:46:14.120my husband is taller than me i love that for me and i love that taylor who i think is about my
00:46:20.460same height like travis is six five um oh also i should say my husband used to work at a popular
00:46:28.680retail store in kansas city and met travis on a couple of occasions and he can confirm that travis
00:46:35.720is quote-unquote huge my husband's like 6162 he says travis is huge and smells good so that was
00:46:46.160like that was like the final piece look like a guy who would smell good yeah he looks like a guy who
00:46:51.060would smell good yeah yeah so yeah yeah that's my feelings as a tall girl leah what do you think
00:46:56.580I mean, like Melody, I feel like Travis's big selling points are one, he's extremely into Taylor Swift for what seemed like a bunch of very unproblematic and in fact, very good reasons. Like, she's smart and successful. Two, he does not seem to harbor any delusions that he is some super genius with profound thoughts that need to be shared with the world.
00:47:20.940And then three is, as Melody was saying, just like deeply unproblematic.
00:47:26.040Like when people went back and looked at his tweets from when he was in college.
00:47:30.780I mean, this is a time when a lot of dudes are pretty problematic.