Culture Study Podcast - Why Is Katy Perry So Embarrassing？

00:00:00.820 Hey everyone, it's Anne.

00:00:02.400 So once a month, we pick an episode to make free for everyone.

00:00:05.600 You'll get the whole show, including the Ask Anne Anything segment, which is usually just

00:00:10.160 for paid subscribers.

00:00:11.800 Other perks for paid subscribers include discussion threads for each episode, which if you're

00:00:16.160 part of Culture Study, you know how great that can be, and an ad-free experience.

00:00:21.540 So if you want to support the show and always get the full episode, head to culturestudypod.substack.com

00:00:27.500 and become a paid subscriber.

00:00:28.940 And if you already subscribe to the Culture Study newsletter, you get a huge discount on

00:00:34.020 the podcast. You can find a link to that in the Substack post for this episode.

00:00:39.380 Also, today's episode is all about Katy Perry, and we recorded it before news of her official

00:00:44.680 breakup with Orlando Bloom, but everything else still stands. Okay, thanks everyone. Enjoy the

00:00:49.760 show. I'm going to tell you something right now. You are officially an astronaut. Thank you so

00:00:54.100 how do you feel I feel super connected to love so connected to love I think this

00:01:01.240 experience has shown me you never know how much love is inside of you like how

00:01:07.360 much love you have to give and how loved you are until the day you launch Gail

00:01:15.160 shared with us the song that you sang when you got up there what a wonderful

00:01:20.620 world why was that important to sing that particular song I've covered that

00:01:26.200 song in the past and obviously like my higher self is always steering the ship

00:01:32.440 because I had no clue that one day I would decide to sing a little bit of

00:01:36.460 that in space but I think that it's not about me it's not about singing my songs

00:01:42.220 it's about a collective energy in there it's about us it's about making space

00:01:48.100 for future women and taking up space and belonging. And it's about this wonderful world that we see

00:01:56.360 right out there and appreciating it. This is all for the benefit of Earth.

00:02:06.680 Hi, everyone. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne-Helan Peterson.

00:02:11.120 And I'm Zach Safrit, co-host of Vibe Check, and so excited to be here.

00:02:14.840 What has been your view of Katy Perry over the span of her career?

00:02:18.360 Like, what's your evolution?

00:02:20.200 Oh, my goodness.

00:02:21.520 Okay, so my hot take around Katy Perry that is no longer a hot take is I did not realize

00:02:27.760 that she was so famous at the peak of her power.

00:02:31.380 When I found out that her Super Bowl performance was the most watched Super Bowl performance

00:02:35.640 of all time, I assumed Beyonce's was, I was like, whoa, that's wild.

00:02:39.560 I had no idea.

00:02:40.400 Because my thing with Katy has always been, she's existed.

00:02:43.400 She's kind of always playing in the mall wherever I go.

00:02:46.600 She's always there.

00:02:47.100 But I never thought of her as like powerful and as like a chart topping like queen.

00:02:52.660 And she is.

00:02:53.940 However, the past eight years, she has not.

00:02:56.520 And so now I kind of understand her sadness because I always was like, you're not that famous.

00:02:59.980 And now I see it.

00:03:00.920 I'm like, oh, wait, you do think you are super famous.

00:03:04.000 And now you're not being treated as such.

00:03:05.800 And now I kind of better understand the fall.

00:03:08.120 And like, she's like engaged to Orlando Bloom and has a kid with him. Like there, this is like classic peak of celebrity stuff. And I told Melody this morning that I have a theory that there actually is like a cabal of top 40 radio station owners. I mean, obviously just like clear or whatever, like that are refusing to play her songs because yes, they're bad. But also there are bad songs on top 40 radio all the time.

00:03:35.480 Like that troll song by Justin Timberlake was like everywhere on top 40 radio.

00:03:40.360 And that was such an example of payola to me.

00:03:43.060 Yeah. 1.00

00:03:43.680 Like Katy Perry could make this happen, but she has been basically since roar.

00:03:48.900 There's been like this black hole.

00:03:51.120 It's so interesting.

00:03:52.860 It is.

00:03:53.380 And it does feel like it's a coordination behind the scenes because, you know, we are making a lot of fun of her right now in the culture.

00:04:00.880 like it's it's a thing and even on American Idol when she was hosting that for years and making so

00:04:06.620 much money she was a meme but we weren't being vicious however something in the past few years

00:04:11.500 we have turned against her and I think it's because she embodies something we're just now 1.00

00:04:17.160 finally understanding which is probably I'm going to argue like a a millennial feminism that we

00:04:23.340 thought died and she's the zombie of it absolutely and our very smart listeners like point us in this

00:04:28.560 direction so we'll get to those questions but first i want to hear you have a story of meeting

00:04:32.060 katie perry i do i do so and i forgot about it until this all came to be and it hit me like a

00:04:38.900 brick uh because it's like because it was a you know it was 2008 i believe 2007 it was right

00:04:45.180 before i kissed a girl really took off uh lady gaga was also emerging and i have like a similar

00:04:50.980 story of like running into lady gaga in nashville and not knowing that she was going to become like

00:04:55.420 one of the biggest stars in the world because I know I see your face being in Nashville at this

00:04:59.200 time there are a lot of musicians arriving and trying to make it you know Taylor Swift was

00:05:03.920 taking off um Carrie Underwood was taking off there was all these people kind of percolating

00:05:08.440 and Nashville is the music capital of the world and it's where a lot of artists go to figure out

00:05:12.380 their their big records and Katy Perry at the time was going by Katy Hudson I think she was a

00:05:17.380 Christian singer and she had just begun to cross over to pop and release this new identity called

00:05:23.320 Katy Perry. And I was at a National Pride where she was playing in the park. And this wasn't like

00:05:29.340 Pride, like we'll see in Washington, DC World Pride this year, where JLo is a headliner,

00:05:33.500 Doshi's a headliner, you know, like tens of thousands of people there. National Pride was

00:05:37.080 itty bitty. And it was like the non-Pride park party. And she was like on a little stage singing

00:05:43.040 I Kissed a Girl. And I ran into her like as she got off stage, like kind of like tackled her on

00:05:48.080 accident I was like I'm so sorry and she was like oh it's okay it's okay and I remembered her so well

00:05:54.460 because like you don't run into you know women very much I don't at least so like I was really

00:05:58.700 shocked it was one of my first prides and I wrecked run into the singer on the stage I was like oh god

00:06:02.680 as she got off stage but then her song I kissed a girl came out I was like I know her I met her

00:06:06.900 and then it became Katy Perry and for me at 18 I really clung to that memory because that those

00:06:14.280 lyrics were popping up on church billboards around my town I came from a very religious place and

00:06:19.700 they would use it to be like if you kiss a girl you'll go to hell so her song that kind of

00:06:23.680 penetrated pop culture in that moment locally right so it became a talking point and I loved

00:06:28.840 it because I was like yeah I was openly gay now and I was like yeah I kissed a girl not really

00:06:32.420 that's because I'm gay now but you know I really I hung on to it so it was a really big part of my

00:06:37.440 coming out and I think Katy Perry a lot of those songs after that like Teenage Dream etc were part

00:06:43.660 of like this kind of gay coming out narrative that was emerging especially thanks to glee yeah

00:06:48.720 so i really like loved her but was never like a katie perry fan i wasn't a kitty cat but i did

00:06:54.880 at the beginning was like okay you're giving me like delicious little pop beats that are fun

00:06:59.020 um with a little teeth yeah and i think that idea of her as like a pop princess like i think like

00:07:06.540 teenage dream to me is a perfect song um i think that i kissed a girl like the beat on that is so

00:07:13.460 infectious and i even at the time i think we understood it as like queer baiting in a way

00:07:19.500 right like she says it's about her own experiences but it's also like the narrative was palatable 0.81

00:07:24.360 to mainstream top 40 audiences in part because it's like i hope my boyfriend don't like it like

00:07:32.000 right it had this like disavowal of an actual queer relationship do you know what i mean

00:07:38.080 Yeah, it was it was ephemeral. It wasn't concretized. She wasn't saying I'm queer. I'm here. She wasn't pulling an Ellen DeGeneres. I think people liked that she was dipping a toe in and and staying straight and coming back. And I think her dipping a toe in and kind of getting political is the thing that made her super famous. But it now is her downfall. Yeah. And she doesn't really she's giving us a politic that isn't. Yeah. Of the moment. Right. It's not legible. And we'll get to that, too.

00:08:06.820 um i also remember the summer where like and this is legendary when like she had i think

00:08:13.360 six number one singles from one album like just that album that teenage dream was on which i think

00:08:18.960 that's the best single but like there was just hit after hit after hit melody says there's five

00:08:24.840 um and i i was in grad school at the time and like was in lived in texas and so i had to drive

00:08:32.200 in the summer so like you're driving in the summer and the radio is just playing this over and over

00:08:37.560 and over again she was inescapable in that way and that seems so vivid I think in millennials

00:08:42.180 minds but we don't we forget that's like more than 10 years ago that's like 12 13 years ago

00:08:47.420 yeah it's like 15 I guess it's 15 years ago now actually it's 15 it's a teenager teenage dream is

00:08:53.700 now a teenager and I think at that time and it may be the case to this day when she got five

00:08:59.860 number one singles off one album you know very few artists had done that ever she was now in

00:09:05.040 the same orbit as michael jackson and she kind of came out of nowhere and built this huge colossal

00:09:10.560 career of of hits and that kind of gave her so much staying power then she was arrived and she

00:09:16.200 arrived and she was part of that moment in pop culture where you saw the emergence of a lot of

00:09:21.620 like archetypes of pop girlies so you had like the beyonce the rihanna the taylor swift taylor 1.00

00:09:26.720 was crossing over katie perry's kind of like pick your fighter if this was street fighter and she

00:09:31.940 was like one of the top ones and we're talking too as people who were inheriting the mantle and

00:09:39.480 like kind of of britney spears christina aguilera jessica simpson but they were so much less messy

00:09:47.060 yeah like yeah there was a an understanding that like you cannot be a mess in your public image

00:09:57.120 if you're gonna occupy this space now like yeah Perez and all of the gossip blogs like and the

00:10:04.600 paparazzi and TMZ were all over the place like you had to figure out what your image was and

00:10:08.780 you had to be very precise about it which like when I think about how locked down Beyonce is 0.80

00:10:13.540 with her image control like so much of that I mean some of it's I think just her personality

00:10:18.680 and some of it is a real reaction to what happened to pop stars in the early 2000s

00:10:24.080 this is a good opportunity actually for us to pause and just make a little announcement about

00:10:29.780 how we analyze star image on this podcast we're also talking about how people are saying mean

00:10:36.960 things about Katy Perry but are they saying mean things about Katy Perry the person who lives and

00:10:42.220 breeze right or are we talking about the way that her image resonates and I think that's something

00:10:47.120 that anyone who does this sort of work we always have to be really careful here and that we're

00:10:51.040 going to try to do that we are going to try to do it I think we'll be able to do it quite well

00:10:55.240 because I you know Katy Perry who goes to bed with Orlando Bloom in their home in Ojai yeah

00:11:00.820 that's not who I'm talking about I'm talking about Katy Perry that went to space that was

00:11:04.040 symbolic Katy Perry symbolic Katy Perry that she even talks about like I made the image of Katy

00:11:10.780 Perry that I could walk into that I could like put on like a cape to be that person as like a

00:11:18.100 refuge for her from her upbringing and now I think that that image still is like out there

00:11:24.860 but it's disarticulated from like lived experience and I think that's part of the problem

00:11:30.380 so yeah yeah yeah I think it's good that's a very nice way of putting it that's all I'll say

00:11:34.540 that was a very nice way of putting it

00:11:41.400 Today's episode is sponsored by Mosh.

00:11:44.040 Every year, as I get older, I try to be slightly more mindful about not eating Starburst jelly

00:11:48.760 beans for breakfast.

00:11:49.980 Not because I think candy is bad.

00:11:51.860 I love candy.

00:11:52.720 I am a candy monster.

00:11:54.140 But because what I eat for breakfast really does affect how I feel for the rest of the

00:11:57.580 day.

00:11:58.320 Same goes for when I have that like sinking huge pit in my stomach at 11am.

00:12:04.160 I know that there's a real difference between eating, well, Starburst jelly beans and eating

00:12:08.580 something that'll keep me going until it's time for lunch.

00:12:10.780 So recently, I've been replacing my Starbucks jelly beans, beloved as they are, with a Mosh Bar.

00:12:16.340 The Blueberry Almond Crunch is my personal fave.

00:12:19.060 Mosh joined forces with the world's top scientists and functional nutritionists to go beyond your average protein bar.

00:12:24.880 Each Mosh Bar is made with ingredients that support brain health, like lion's mane, collagen, and omega-3s.

00:12:30.580 Mosh Bars also actually taste great, not like that kind of chalky protein taste.

00:12:35.280 And they come in nine different flavors, including three new plant-based flavors,

00:12:40.320 chocolate chip cookie, hazelnut chocolate chip, and peanut chocolate chip.

00:12:44.060 Mosh also donates a portion of all proceeds from your order to fund gender-based brain health

00:12:48.620 research through the women's Alzheimer's movement. Two-thirds of all Alzheimer patients are women,

00:12:53.520 and Mosh is working closely to close the gap between women and men's health research.

00:12:57.500 So if you want to find a way to give back to others and fuel your body and your brain,

00:13:01.360 mosh bars are the perfect choice for you head to moshlife.com slash culture to save 20% off

00:13:08.400 plus free shipping on the bestsellers trial pack or the new plant-based trial pack that's 20% off

00:13:15.360 plus free shipping on either the bestsellers trial pack or the plant-based trial pack at

00:13:20.520 m-o-s-h-l-i-f-e dot com slash culture thank you mosh for supporting this episode today's episode

00:13:28.420 of the Culture Study Podcast is brought to you by Ollie. Okay, so I just got back from two weeks

00:13:33.320 away. And my dog Steve, the one who is very particular about his food, he was hanging out

00:13:39.880 with my mom, which means he was living his best life. But also, he's just a sensitive guy. Like

00:13:45.140 he, when we come back, he always is like, kind of snobby and like, ignores us and like, gives us

00:13:53.480 a stink eye and you know how i cured it this time i gave him some ollie he loves it so much this is

00:14:00.900 a dog that is just generally kind of indifferent about food not ollie ollie delivers clean fresh

00:14:06.900 nutrition in five drool worthy flavors even for the pickiest eaters it's made in u.s kitchens with

00:14:12.120 the highest quality human grade ingredients and it contains no fillers no preservatives it's just

00:14:17.700 real food with five protein packed recipes like fresh beef sweet potatoes or fresh turkey with

00:14:23.000 blueberries, even the pickiest eaters can't resist. So this is how it works. You fill out

00:14:28.340 Ollie's 30-second quiz and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight,

00:14:33.160 activity level, and health info. For any first-timers, Ollie will send out the pup's first

00:14:37.720 box with two weeks worth of meals, a free storage container for mess-free serving, and a guide for

00:14:42.580 how to gradually switch them over to their new diet. Ollie offers three meal plans to choose

00:14:46.540 from so you can choose between a full fresh plan, a fresh topper plan, or a mixed plan with their

00:14:51.660 freshly baked recipes for your special dog. They also have treats and supplements. Ollie is also

00:14:57.080 the only fresh dog food that comes with unlimited routine health screenings so you can get your pup

00:15:01.620 on track to live their healthiest, happiest life. Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh,

00:15:05.900 healthy food. Head to ollie.com slash culture, tell them all about your dog, and use code culture

00:15:12.260 to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on

00:15:19.020 that first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's

00:15:23.560 O-L-L-I-E dot com slash culture and enter code culture to get 60% off your first box.

00:15:37.080 Okay, so our first question comes from Katie. This is not Katy Perry. This is from a listener 0.76

00:15:42.360 named Katie. I used to be a really big Katy Perry fan, and I've actually seen her in concert twice

00:15:47.740 as an adult. One of the things that I've always liked about her is just her goofiness and her 0.78

00:15:53.080 seeming ability to just not take herself so seriously, like cupcake bras, left shark,

00:15:58.400 singing about hangovers, general campiness, et cetera. She's not a Taylor Swift, soulful

00:16:04.340 songwriter type or a Beyonce level icon, but that's part of her charm. I don't know if anyone

00:16:09.880 else remembers but she did this whole like truman show live stream for a whole weekend as part of

00:16:17.760 her witness album release and it was so weird and a little boring and also kind of fun and weirdly

00:16:25.040 fascinating that a celebrity would put themselves out there like that so now that katie has gotten

00:16:30.200 older and her most recent attempts at goofiness or humor have just really fallen flat it makes me 0.97

00:16:38.200 question is there a way for performers who are women to hold on to their campy silly sides as 0.99

00:16:44.260 they get older or as they become mothers honestly and what's the difference between someone like 1.00

00:16:50.880 dolly parton who can remain silly and sexual and self-deprecating throughout her life and still be

00:16:56.300 loved while katie is coming off so cringy and no shade to dolly who i like honestly adore so 0.57

00:17:03.940 have you like did that playfulness come through to you yes yes there's there was

00:17:11.240 a charm to her I didn't think of her as campy until hearing this listener's uh question and

00:17:18.520 it makes sense she is camp is she low camp or high camp low low camp low low I think low it's

00:17:24.740 not very intelligent camp it's kind of like chewing gum camp very poppy very like I feel

00:17:30.380 like you can get a katie perry if you have a quarter at the grocery store you put it in the

00:17:34.140 machine and that's what you get out of the the canister is a katie perry um which are everywhere 0.66

00:17:38.680 and that's why she's kind of like scaled the world is that she's very consumable very easy

00:17:42.740 to engage with and not too expensive in terms of like a cultural um you know acquisition of like

00:17:47.900 you know the barrier to entry is not very high right it's very easy to like carry perry and

00:17:51.840 enjoy katie perry and i think that's also what hurts her is that you know she's having fun having

00:17:56.120 campiness and then in moments in which she's letting us in revealing something there isn't

00:18:01.340 much there like there's not a big analysis even her latest album which she's been getting a lot

00:18:07.000 of flack for she put it out and said oh this is just for fun this is not supposed to be taken

00:18:11.560 that seriously however one of the producers that created the album i think 10 songs on the album

00:18:15.620 was dr luke who is a very serious person we should be considering in the culture so i think that's

00:18:20.020 the issue with Katy Perry is that sure be campy have fun but also contextualize the work that

00:18:26.220 you're making within the larger world that it exists in and Taylor Swift's very good at that

00:18:31.080 Taylor Swift's very good at being very confessional but placing her confessions her own self-development

00:18:36.600 within the larger stakes around her Gaga similar you know Dolly Parton also similar she was writing

00:18:43.120 nine to five at a time that that was really revolutionary and it really can that continues

00:18:47.660 to be revolutionary i do not think katie perry's fireworks is revolutionary i'm sorry baby i'm a

00:18:53.580 firework i'm gonna hear me roar like all of this is operating at like a very like a pop level right

00:18:59.880 and it's like pop can operate at that level and can be successful at that level you know like i'm

00:19:04.980 thinking of someone we recently did an episode on um tate mccray and like none of her songs are

00:19:10.420 operating at a sophisticated or confessional level at least not her very popular songs um

00:19:16.080 no i re-watched the video for women's world this morning i'm sorry and i had seen it when it first

00:19:23.100 came out and like some people were treating it very seriously they were like how could she think

00:19:28.760 that this is about a woman's world and i'm like well she's trying to do a satire but it doesn't

00:19:35.780 it just doesn't quite work it's like if a student turned in that paper to me i'd be like let's do

00:19:41.300 some revisions let's tighten the argument you know yeah but it's like what is katie perry arguing

00:19:47.940 i still don't understand like what is her analysis what is her great take on culture and i think

00:19:53.920 that's what's so compelling for the hate around her is because she has such a huge platform i mean

00:19:59.280 she was hosting or you know a judge on american idol she goes on this world tour that you know 0.81

00:20:04.160 reportedly she thought would be of the levels of taylor swift's arrows tour however that did not

00:20:09.120 happen at all and yet she has nothing to say behind it all so i think like that's what i

00:20:14.240 struggle with do you have that same feeling like i'm looking at the imagery in the women's world

00:20:18.480 video and she's like kind of tossing around these various consumer items that are marketed towards

00:20:24.220 women and like conceived of tools of women's empowerment or even like the beginning shot 0.75

00:20:29.760 like it opens on her as rosie the riveter but like sexy rosie the riveter and so you could do 1.00

00:20:36.540 a potential reading where it's like okay here's how white pop feminism millennial feminism has 1.00

00:20:43.040 been evacuated of any political heft and just become a tool to promote consumerism yeah which 1.00

00:20:52.300 she and if she came out and said that that video came out i would be like oh delicious let's go 0.99

00:20:58.560 there however she got in the blue origin spaceship so that like deflates all of that analysis very 0.85

00:21:05.140 quickly she also like I live in Los Angeles and she does do these things like you're right she 1.00

00:21:09.620 uses imagery to evoke you know a feminist critique of the world at times even I kissed a girl was

00:21:16.380 you know her own version of queer theory like I took queer theory 101 I mean I studied a lot 0.53

00:21:20.400 it's very queer theory 101 that's a very queer theory 101 that like performance hits and fearing

00:21:25.200 the patriarchy and well my boyfriend so like it is if you wanted to asking big questions but she's 0.70

00:21:30.720 not sitting in the class to hear the answers to those that's the problem she does evacuate any

00:21:34.460 of the kind of what the points that she's trying to make at the end of it because she does things

00:21:38.420 like go to space with Lauren Sanchez she also living in LA people in LA love talking about

00:21:44.280 Katy Perry and her real estate are you familiar with her real estate it's like there's this whole 0.57

00:21:47.660 thing with this monastery right the monastery yes in east the more east LA she like took nuns to

00:21:53.740 court and has been fighting over so it's just like she's so wealthy she's like singing about 1.00

00:21:58.320 feminism but also suing nuns so that she could have an estate so she sits in lots of contradictions 1.00

00:22:03.860 And I love a contradiction. I talk about this on Vibe Check a lot. I met Angela Davis when I was 20, maybe two years after running into Katy Perry. I meet Angela Davis, another feminist icon, you know, all these feminist icons in my teens. And she said to me, you know, live in the contradiction. And her reason for that was she was trying to help me calm down a bit from having this awakening of, oh, my God, I live in a patriarchal society that's misogynistic, that there's so much going on. And she was kind of telling me, you know, you were born into this, I don't expect you to tear it down. 0.99

00:22:33.860 Figure out how you can exist in that contradiction of everything.

00:22:37.860 And Katy Perry doesn't see herself as contradictory.

00:22:40.580 She does think sometimes her work is revolutionary and that it's tearing down systems. 0.95

00:22:45.360 However, she's just getting richer within that system.

00:22:48.100 And like truly, how do you work with Dr. Luke with those if you do espouse those politics?

00:22:52.340 Right?

00:22:52.640 Like that to me, that's like too much of a contradiction to reside in that contradiction.

00:22:57.480 I do think we should like think about this question of like can silliness age?

00:23:01.760 to me no one would be like katie perry's mother right because she does not display herself in

00:23:08.240 any way as someone who has aged like she still is performing 20 yes and that's i i think i saw

00:23:15.080 someone tweet about this person tiktok taylor swift god rest her soul is maturing you know

00:23:20.820 folklore like covet did make her sit back and think hey what does grown woman taylor look like

00:23:27.320 how does she show up what does the lyrics uh sound like and feel like and she began the aging

00:23:31.860 process through her music and you know there's been a lot of writing about how taylor swift

00:23:35.940 due to being you know a childless woman uh she gets a lot of flack from the right and people

00:23:41.280 argue that that's kept her kind of in this like state of childhood however i would argue with

00:23:45.020 travis kelsey she has aged up and we're thinking of her more as a woman a grown woman in many ways

00:23:50.020 katie perry while having a husband and at least one child to my knowledge just one yeah i think 0.66

00:23:55.640 Yeah, just the one and the fine husband.

00:23:58.600 My goodness, fine, fine, fine husband. 0.99

00:24:00.840 She still, you know, does not occupy a space of groan at all.

00:24:06.020 She is stuck in time.

00:24:07.580 And I think that she is 40 years old, according to Google, when I looked it up today.

00:24:11.680 And she's trying to stay 25 forever.

00:24:15.360 And I think people have issue with that because they've gotten older. 0.96

00:24:19.580 And they would be okay with this if, you know, she was doing this silly, poppy, goofy thing.

00:24:24.500 But, like, creating new ways of expressing it. 0.91

00:24:26.640 Like, even Dolly Parton releases new music, you know.

00:24:29.280 Yeah.

00:24:29.400 But it's still the hits back in the day.

00:24:30.800 Or, like, the duet that she did with Sabrina Carpenter.

00:24:34.040 Yes.

00:24:34.640 You know.

00:24:35.400 There's new ways of showing up as yourself.

00:24:38.340 And I think that brings me to my next point with Katy Perry is through all this campy pop sugar kind of aesthetics.

00:24:45.960 I don't know who Katy Perry is.

00:24:48.520 And I know who Dolly Parton is.

00:24:50.200 I know who Taylor Swift is.

00:24:51.760 I know who Rihanna is.

00:24:53.300 Like, there's an authenticity that anchors all of those folks that when they put on their costumes, like Gaga, when she becomes, you know, fame again and returns to an old archetype, I still know who, like, Stephanie is through all of it.

00:25:07.720 And it gives me a sense of gravity to it all.

00:25:09.700 And I kind of have a sense of, like, stakes within it.

00:25:12.420 Katie, it's, like, it's so hollow.

00:25:16.280 It's so, it's just sugar at the end of the day.

00:25:18.740 And I think that's her, that's my, I think, a lot of people's issues.

00:25:22.420 And that's also why they're kind of dogpiling on her right now.

00:25:24.800 Yeah, I think so, right?

00:25:25.840 Because she doesn't seem like a person.

00:25:27.740 Yeah.

00:25:28.360 And, like, if you're not a person, then, like, it makes it really easy for me to dislike you if this is all you got.

00:25:35.580 Like, if this is, like, all you got, the surface level performativity that is grounded in nothing, then, of course, we're going to light it on fire and pop culture and, like, really make fun of it.

00:25:45.140 Because I don't – they don't think of Katy Perry when she goes home at night.

00:25:48.220 And I think that's what's been really heartbreaking to – I don't know if you saw this video.

00:25:52.420 and I could be projecting but you know her tour the clips have been made fun of a lot on TikTok

00:25:57.940 because of the dancing because of the decisions around set pieces there's just as Melody said

00:26:04.180 like it's everything like it's everything what did they leave out like what did they

00:26:09.160 nothing and what and the most heartbreaking content I've seen is she's on this tour it's

00:26:14.980 everything people are making fun of it she's in Mexico City performing I think that's where some

00:26:19.300 of the content like really went viral a few days later gaga shows up has like a historic

00:26:24.260 groundbreaking show more tickets ever sold in the stadium tons of people in mexico going to see it 0.90

00:26:29.980 and there's a video on tiktok people can find of katie perry in the vip tent watching and she looks

00:26:36.380 both happy and sad at the same time right she's and i had this moment where i thought oh this is

00:26:43.700 your contemporary you just did your show the other night not full at all being made fun of

00:26:50.420 everyone's dragging you saying all these things about you you're now at gaga a person whose age

00:26:54.620 is the same you are the same you came up the same you even all came to nashville for a bit like 0.58

00:26:58.840 similar journeys created these huge pop star machines that you occupy and gaga no one makes 0.63

00:27:04.500 any of these comments about her her stage work is incredible she's gotten better with age she's able

00:27:08.760 to self-reference and people don't make they don't think it's funny they think it's important

00:27:12.580 there's still like a politic to the work and Katie's is just devoid of any real meaning and

00:27:18.080 you can tell in her face that she was contending with that in real time and I think she was

00:27:22.040 contending with the fact that like what happened how did I lose all of this right and how does

00:27:26.300 she still have it right it would be like if Gaga was still like wearing the meat dress you know

00:27:30.760 yes yes like if she got stuck in the meat dress still we'd be like in the Alexander Wang shoes

00:27:36.660 those all came out we'd be like okay girl we got it the archive the archive and you know a pop star

00:27:41.280 I'm so glad you bring that up.

00:27:42.160 A pop star that has traversed those nostalgic lanes is Jennifer Lopez. 0.95

00:27:46.940 And it is blowing up on her face, too. 0.52

00:27:48.540 She's revisited the Versace dress with Donatella on her side,

00:27:51.920 the very famous one she wore to the VMAs, I believe,

00:27:54.440 when she was dating Diddy, which definitely didn't age well at all, that.

00:27:59.000 But now she is trying to do these throwbacks,

00:28:01.460 even her own heiress tour, and people are not showing up. 0.81

00:28:04.340 So now she's running back to a residency in Vegas, 0.99

00:28:06.940 which Katy Perry also had to do,

00:28:09.040 which we're now hearing reports of from different unnamed sources

00:28:12.460 that Katy Perry's residency at Resort World didn't actually do that well.

00:28:16.820 We all thought it was going well.

00:28:18.640 Right, that's a perfect Vegas thing, right?

00:28:20.360 Like that's the fit.

00:28:21.200 Perfect Vegas, yeah.

00:28:22.820 Okay, this is a good transition to our next question,

00:28:24.860 which is about pylons, it's about the tour,

00:28:28.160 it's about the choreography, it's about the Dr. Luke collaboration.

00:28:32.320 Let's hear this question from Spencer.

00:28:34.460 I feel like we do this thing where we dogpile on every single thing

00:28:38.300 a celebrity does when they're in a career slump. It becomes fun to chastise them over every little

00:28:44.820 thing that they do, even if it's pretty anodyne. In reverse, when someone's career is hot, we tend

00:28:51.480 to praise every little thing they do and try to create justifications for anything bad or mediocre

00:28:57.420 that they do. If Katy Perry's most recent album was full of ubiquitous hit songs, would we have

00:29:04.160 been so incensed over every one of her recent pr blunders is it possible that she was just as

00:29:10.740 annoying or out of touch in 2010 through 2013 but we just looked past it or even celebrated her for 0.98

00:29:17.360 it because she supplied us with a seemingly endless stream of bangers maybe her greatest

00:29:23.220 sin is actually just releasing a series of unmemorable albums listen i mean i i do think 0.89

00:29:32.040 there are a lot of stars who are selling a ton of albums and then people still talk shit about

00:29:38.480 them right so like early era miley cyrus right like wrecking ball era miley cyrus yeah for many 0.80

00:29:45.160 many many different reasons but those the rapping the rapping the like the twerking the the nakedness

00:29:54.420 like all of those things um i think that a lot of people would say something similar about taylor

00:30:01.480 swift like there was just this period about it's more than a year ago now like last spring

00:30:06.920 when she announced tortured poets and then the reception for tortured poets was kind of lukewarm

00:30:12.300 that people are like why are people dogpiling on taylor swift they just want to be like mad at her

00:30:16.540 she's overexposed but what do you yeah what do you think of this is it just because their music 0.91

00:30:21.320 is bad that we can talk shit yeah i do i do i really i do i i am sorry and i have to say 0.80

00:30:30.460 people in the person i will bring up that is the embodiment of this is azalea banks miss azalea 0.92

00:30:38.220 banks for those who are not familiar is the cardi b that never happened she was going to be the next 1.00

00:30:43.320 biggest rap star and around the same time katie perry became famous actually azalea banks was uh

00:30:49.420 doing a feature on beyonce's album at the time on rihanna's album she was going to be the girl and

00:30:55.000 She is very talented.

00:30:57.480 Good writer, good performer, everything. 0.90

00:30:58.920 But she's problematic. 1.00

00:31:00.180 Politics, trash. 1.00

00:31:01.900 Bad. 1.00

00:31:02.520 Just really bad. 1.00

00:31:03.300 Sick foot in her mouth. 1.00

00:31:04.080 And like, runs her mouth. 1.00

00:31:05.460 Runs her mouth. 0.99

00:31:06.140 To this day, runs her mouth. 1.00

00:31:07.820 Ran her mouth and exposed Elon Musk before it was the hottest thing in the world. 1.00

00:31:10.980 And that actually worked out.

00:31:12.560 However, her fandom has never really swayed.

00:31:15.100 People still listen to Azalea Banks.

00:31:16.400 She's not the biggest star in the world. 1.00

00:31:17.520 She doesn't chart, but she still makes cultural moments, et cetera. 0.99

00:31:20.240 Katy Perry, lifetimes, not good. 0.95

00:31:22.980 good woman's world not good the doji song right before doji exploded as a star before she won

00:31:29.980 the grammy not good so if the work had been good she had everything on her side to weather the

00:31:36.200 storm of the criticism of her being a pop star that maybe has never changed and is referencing

00:31:41.940 herself over and over again but it's not great taylor swift the fact that that's her worst album

00:31:47.060 and she was selling out every stadium from here to like every country around the world right it's

00:31:51.600 kind of like lol like she's like doesn't really matter katie perry not the same so i do think

00:31:57.060 and that like if the work is good and we see this happen a lot in culture and politics we will

00:32:03.420 forgive a lot and this work is not good so that's the problem the work isn't good um let's talk a

00:32:09.900 little bit about what the current sound sounds like and here melody can like play us a couple of

00:32:14.940 clips.

00:32:44.940 baby you and me for infinity my eternity

00:32:50.940 i love you for i love you for life

00:32:58.640 lifetimes i love you for i love you for life

00:33:06.640 Lifetimes

00:33:08.740 I know you feel it

00:33:10.600 I almost want her to either like go

00:33:13.560 Like worship pop is really big right now

00:33:16.000 Huge

00:33:16.780 Wildly huge

00:33:18.160 And we should define worship pop as like

00:33:20.120 What's that song

00:33:22.640 Like I'm gonna

00:33:23.920 Ordinary

00:33:25.980 Alex Warren

00:33:27.200 Oh talk about it you're warm

00:33:29.700 My partner played it in the car the other day

00:33:31.980 And we have this joke where we call a lot of pop music

00:33:34.740 Just Christian rock

00:33:35.560 Like I grew up listening to Christian rock.

00:33:36.840 My brother-in-law was like, you get it.

00:33:38.920 We're the same girls, same generation, same girlies, same things.

00:33:42.800 And we'll play this game.

00:33:44.380 Like, is it pop music or is it Christian rock?

00:33:46.600 And he started playing Alex Warren.

00:33:48.120 And I said, girl, I think this is just Christian rock, like literally.

00:33:52.160 And the lyrics are about God, angels.

00:33:55.040 And it's currently sitting at number three on the Billboard Hot 100.

00:33:58.680 And I know Sam Sanders, your co-host on Vibe Check, is also obsessed with this.

00:34:02.640 Like he actually he posted something to Instagram the other day about like some of the different things that were that were worship pop that I was like, oh, my God, absolutely all of these things.

00:34:11.520 And there's also a great discussion of this on a very recent episode of Switched on Pop, where they took a look at some of these songs on the top 40, including like some of the Benson Boone songs.

00:34:23.540 Just that idea of this like crescendo of praise.

00:34:26.460 and like I came of age I'm a little bit older than you so praise music like the like the albums

00:34:33.920 that were just praise music from like cool churches like that was kind of peaking when I

00:34:38.520 was in college and that is the set like Katy Perry can you just picture her as a praise leader like

00:34:44.940 she she missed her calling and that's why I was looking at the charts before this

00:34:49.080 because seeing Alex Warren show up seeing up a few other songs even seeing Morgan Wallen's

00:34:54.180 problematic self on the dominating absolutely continues on the chart is that katie perry if

00:34:58.780 she had better management they would have seen this coming down the pipeline because everyone

00:35:02.160 knows these songs coming they see them coming like the alex warren thing did not really come

00:35:06.220 out of nowhere and all the other worship music kind of exploding right now does speak to a

00:35:10.320 cultural moment we are in that i think the music industry probably saw it tracking turn to the

00:35:14.420 right turn right turn to the right like it's right there katie perry could have just done

00:35:19.540 a praise album like worship song dance music these i i see the clips from these churches

00:35:24.540 edm is now showing up yeah it's like baptist churches worship songs are now bigger than ever

00:35:29.660 you know most songs people like anthems like imagine dragon you know still one of the biggest

00:35:36.500 groups of all time without us ever realizing it even ed sheeran and coldplay in many ways

00:35:41.400 are giving us worship sounds that you would play in the church so katie perry who began as a

00:35:46.960 christian singer transitions to a pop star could just go meet in the middle and lean in there and

00:35:52.780 i think she would have been the biggest biggest album of the year lifetimes if done more christian

00:35:57.740 huge song yeah totally woman's world like you think about how you could change the vibe

00:36:03.600 i wouldn't like it i wouldn't like it but i would like i think that it would work in a different way

00:36:13.580 in the same way that ordinary works are like exactly and i think what people and what i like

00:36:20.160 about thinking of katie perry as a worship pop star which is honestly if she's listening do the

00:36:25.620 pivot i won't even be mad like next album make it worship is that it would be a return to her

00:36:30.360 original form which is what people are looking for beyonce is attempting that right now and

00:36:36.320 telling that story through her work through the three-act structure we don't know what the third

00:36:39.580 act is but the first two are returned it could be gospel which would be a perfect like literally if

00:36:45.500 she does it katie perry run run towards it like go you have your moment and no one will question

00:36:51.260 it like you are a christian you are a christian girly but it's like i was talking to um tina

00:36:56.060 knowles the other day she's on vibe check next week beyonce's mother and we talked at length

00:36:59.860 about growing up to house music and how it actually showed up in that house and i don't think people

00:37:05.640 realize that when she says uncle johnny he was her uncle like her it's technically her cousin

00:37:10.320 but he was her nanny he raised her in solange for years and would play music around them constantly

00:37:18.120 and help them figure out their dance moves and help destiny child get put together and all these

00:37:22.340 things so they were like really entrenched in both gospel country and um house music and beyonce is

00:37:30.400 able to do this also seamlessly beyond being an incredible performer uh because it is a return

00:37:35.360 to form for her katie perry in that edm dance music is not a return to form i do not think of

00:37:41.380 katie perry like this is a woman who wasn't allowed to eat lucky charms or like devil's

00:37:46.400 food cake right like because luck was something that was associated with the devil and devil's 1.00

00:37:50.480 food cake was like the devil uh she like think of the music that was in her house growing up

00:37:55.720 and like so when we talk about like i always love that that secondary balance of the phrase

00:38:00.000 house music like what is the music in your house what is it like the background soundtrack of your

00:38:06.260 life and how does that inform your thinking and also just like what feels natural and so

00:38:11.520 this I'm thinking of the music that she was like Amy Grant no way Amy Grant would not be allowed

00:38:16.440 in that house that's so funny yeah I know and I think like there's a world in which she could use 0.98

00:38:24.280 that lack of culture maybe in her household this very you know um i don't even know the very 0.62

00:38:31.480 conservative uh culture she lived in and meet the moment today of subverting it and i think that's 1.00

00:38:37.160 if she was a real camp star like gaga yeah rihanna in some ways like they would take that thing that 0.99

00:38:44.200 is innate to them and turn on its head and exploit it in this really smart delicious way and and i 0.87

00:38:49.800 don't see her riding around on a uh what was it a butterfly as as that at all right or like like 1.00

00:38:57.700 her doing kind of like a righteous gemstones type thing like that would be super interesting and you 0.99

00:39:03.600 are hitting the nail on the head right there's gemstones in the culture trumps an office like 1.00

00:39:08.520 these are these are perfect things she should have if she was and that's what like pop music

00:39:12.660 is supposed to do it is kind of atmospheric it's supposed to express the soundtrack of our lives

00:39:18.780 in the moment that we're in, and it kind of pops up

00:39:20.820 because it becomes a way for all of us

00:39:22.700 to enjoy something. I mean, it's so funny, Justin

00:39:24.660 Timberlake, I think in the late 90s, early 2000s,

00:39:27.240 someone asked him,

00:39:28.660 do you enjoy being a pop star? And he said, well,

00:39:30.660 he was in NSYNC, and he said, of course I do. It means I'm

00:39:32.760 popular. It's popular music.

00:39:34.620 Which is a very Justin Timberlake thing to say.

00:39:37.740 Like, so Justin Timberlake.

00:39:39.260 And I think right now

00:39:40.980 we are contending with a lean

00:39:42.760 to the right, and Pete in the far right

00:39:44.980 just gaining so much power that Katy 1.00

00:39:46.800 Perry should look in the mirror

00:39:48.360 and feel it animating in her body

00:39:50.880 and use that to create

00:39:52.720 a sound that does

00:39:54.320 connect her to the moment and connect

00:39:56.620 us to her and she's not doing

00:39:58.700 that. Yeah and we're not saying that she needs to

00:40:00.680 go to the right. I mean sure her politics 0.94

00:40:02.800 are democratic 0.95

00:40:04.080 but how could you use that to create

00:40:06.700 a critique in a really interesting way. I would

00:40:08.700 love to read that. I would love to read her thoughts

00:40:10.820 on that. I just

00:40:11.560 I'd love to hear her speak about it. Instead

00:40:14.640 she's talking about how

00:40:16.560 on the space launch she only felt love just love right just love only love and then showed her

00:40:23.920 set list to her show in space it just is insane to me like it really is and it's just like so

00:40:31.300 so i don't know i'm just gonna stop there it's just bad it's just all bad

00:40:35.400 the culture study podcast is sponsored by zbiotics maybe you've heard about the zbiotics

00:40:46.100 pre-alcohol probiotic whether here or on another podcast where people rave about its effectiveness

00:40:51.160 zbiotics teams just released another product and this one helps you get more fiber into your diet

00:40:56.600 without changing what you eat only five percent of americans get enough fiber in their diet and

00:41:01.160 if you're like me it's probably because it is pretty hard to do so like i love broccoli but

00:41:06.020 i can't eat just i don't know a pound of broccoli for every meal cue the sugar to fiber probiotic

00:41:11.920 mix which you can mix into your smoothie or juice or even just your water it tastes good you do this

00:41:16.360 once a day the phd microbiologists over at zbiotics understand that 95 percent of americans don't get

00:41:22.080 enough fiber so they genetically engineered a probiotic drink called sugar to fiber sugar to

00:41:27.180 fiber turns sugar in the foods i eat into a prebiotic fiber called leaven fiber it's really

00:41:33.080 hard to get leaven from a typical diet and it helps improve the amount and diversity of fiber

00:41:37.580 my body receives. When you drink a glass of sugar to fiber every day, it takes something that I'm

00:41:42.280 actually already eating it and changes it into a different route, a healthier outcome. I don't have

00:41:48.140 to add something new to my routine. It's so easy to add Z-Biotics sugar to fiber to your daily

00:41:52.860 routine. And it helps me know that I'm getting the diversity of fiber that my body needs. It makes my

00:41:57.660 body really happy. Go to zbiotics.com slash culture study and use culture study at checkout for 15%

00:42:03.820 off any first-time orders of Z-Biotics probiotics. Z-Biotics has a 100% money-back guarantee,

00:42:09.760 so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money, no question asked.

00:42:15.120 Thanks for Z-Biotics for sponsoring this episode.

00:42:18.360 Today's episode is sponsored by Article. Here at the Culture Study Podcast, we are huge Article

00:42:24.180 fans. You've heard Melody and I go on about all of the different items that are all over our homes,

00:42:29.400 And today, I just want to emphasize that there are things in my house that I've now had for,

00:42:34.700 I think it's going on six years from Article, and they still look brand new.

00:42:40.040 Like, this stuff is high quality.

00:42:42.280 It doesn't get immediately shabby.

00:42:44.700 The stuff I have in Article is always the stuff when I post pictures of my house on Instagram.

00:42:49.680 It's always the stuff that people are DMing me and saying, like, where is that from?

00:42:53.100 Where is that from?

00:42:53.980 And it makes me feel good that I can say this is from Article, and I actually really love it.

00:42:57.500 article has curated collections for every style they have mid-century modern they have coastal

00:43:03.060 scandy inspired stuff they take great care in curating their collection they focus on high

00:43:08.560 quality meaningful pieces that will stand the test of time as i just said you can immediately

00:43:13.140 tell the difference in quality when you receive an article piece there's meticulous packaging

00:43:17.420 nothing is dinged up the weight and feel of the product like you can tell that this isn't like

00:43:22.280 cheap particle board. And there's also the fact that it comes mostly assembled, which is amazing.

00:43:29.060 Like I cannot tell you how great that is when you order something and it arrives and it's almost

00:43:34.620 entirely assembled or someone is there to assemble it for you. It's great for my relationship. I'll

00:43:39.320 just say that. They also offer fast, affordable shipping across the U.S. and Canada with options

00:43:44.020 for professional assembly if you prefer a more hands-off experience. And if you have a question

00:43:49.160 or need help with your design choices,

00:43:50.840 Article's customer care team

00:43:51.940 is available seven days a week.

00:43:53.700 They offer knowledgeable support

00:43:54.940 and even give you free interior design services

00:43:57.340 to help you get your home just right.

00:43:59.060 With Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee,

00:44:01.140 you can shop with confidence

00:44:02.280 knowing that if you're not completely in love

00:44:04.220 with your new furniture,

00:44:05.300 you can easily return it.

00:44:07.080 This peace of mind ensures

00:44:08.000 you can invest in your home without hesitation.

00:44:10.700 Right now, Article is offering our listeners

00:44:12.600 $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

00:44:16.520 To claim, go to article.com slash culture

00:44:18.960 and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

00:44:22.060 That's article.com slash culture for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

00:44:33.800 So this next question also points back to the height of her career,

00:44:36.880 and this comes from Meredith,

00:44:37.920 and I think it's going to allow us to self-interrogate a little bit.

00:44:41.360 Okay.

00:44:41.840 Okay. 1.00

00:44:42.620 Is the reason Katy Perry comes across as so cringe

00:44:46.180 is that she presents as if she never left the year 2014. I have started to think about her as

00:44:52.400 the quintessential Obamacore millennial icon who continues to embody the glowy, racism is over,

00:44:59.860 the future is female, love is love ethos of the time, an attitude which many of us have realized 0.81

00:45:06.340 was painfully naive at best, willfully harmful and ignorant at worst. Is there any way Perry 0.93

00:45:12.480 can overcome this perception and express what feels like genuine growth or at least acknowledge 0.89

00:45:18.560 time has passed or will perry always be a symbol especially for millennial women of how short-sighted

00:45:25.960 we were i am interested in this idea of like part of the strong reaction to her is a self-loathing

00:45:33.000 yes i think there is a i was talking to someone about this over at a dinner party the other day

00:45:44.040 and they were reflecting on their own religious journey and they said that they feel embarrassment

00:45:47.680 that they ever believed in you know such a conservative religion they were very evangelical

00:45:52.100 and i thought that was interesting to be so embarrassed about your past and as i thought

00:45:56.720 about it i was like oh right yeah like there is a way in which we look backwards and see something

00:46:00.560 that we believed and realized that it led us to a moment of great pain um and that we now feel

00:46:06.300 stupid like that's real and i think katie perry sadly does fit that narrative today her music

00:46:12.320 was part of this pathway that led us to thinking hillary clinton was going to save the world 1.00

00:46:18.520 that led us to hillary clinton in a glass building you know ready to break that literal glass when

00:46:24.380 she was announced president we found out she actually had lost you know yeah pantsu nation 1.00

00:46:29.260 and all of that stuff.

00:46:30.500 So I do think, Katie, if she's not able to help us

00:46:34.800 understand why that moment was actually vital

00:46:37.760 and that it's part of the fight today

00:46:39.780 and that there are learnings from it

00:46:41.360 that we should use and deploy against the things

00:46:43.600 that we're under right now,

00:46:46.400 then until she's able to do all that work, 0.99

00:46:48.680 everyone's gonna be mad at her 1.00

00:46:49.780 because it's similar to when Hillary Clinton posts on Twitter 1.00

00:46:52.180 when people are like, what are you talking about?

00:46:54.280 Like, why are we doing this?

00:46:55.600 and you know having women's world release around the same time kamala harris became the candidate

00:47:01.840 and you know a lot of people did not see that ever happening her being a black woman and we

00:47:07.080 had a lot of hope and now people feel a lot of anger for feeling hope at that time i think katie

00:47:11.780 perry that's the dog piling because it's like she's just the vessel that we're throwing it all

00:47:17.040 into and i she may not deserve that but i do think when i think of like the like the mapping of her

00:47:22.920 career of that like 2010s pop music pop feminism um girl boss then the launch of bumble and like 0.89

00:47:31.680 dating apps are about women taking control and then the downfall of so many women who did bad 1.00

00:47:36.420 things while being in power that leads us into the trump administration like girl bossing 0.99

00:47:40.560 that whole milieu of like oh this is the way forward exactly until like we were able to really 0.98

00:47:48.200 understand like why that happened we know why it happened but how it will maybe help us today

00:47:54.200 she will always be villainized until we get to that moment because we just don't i still don't

00:47:58.620 know i heard whitney heard the owner of bumble the founder of bumble she has a really incredible

00:48:03.500 interview in the new york times right now uh podcast and they ask her similar questions around

00:48:07.960 like bumble's currently dating apps are like really sinking like they're not that popular

00:48:11.960 and bumble's really like trading like three bucks a share and they were like well what what have you

00:48:16.680 learn what do you what do you regret and her regret was the girl boss that whole era and like

00:48:21.760 she's now trying to like rectify it by creating a new future and katie perry's still like doubling

00:48:27.420 down and so i think that's where the anger sits for a lot of people and i and especially at like

00:48:32.460 the video for woman's world where like you kind of maybe get a little bit of it or at least your

00:48:38.540 art director does um but not katie yeah right and like the the whole like and this is where

00:48:46.660 I think the collaboration with Dr. Luke feels like particularly noxious is it's like, you don't 0.99

00:48:53.960 believe women. No, you don't privately, you make a lot of decisions that hurt women that only enrich

00:48:59.880 yourself, whether it's, you know, going on a trip to space to where you can announce your tour,

00:49:05.920 or it's creating an album, that's a dance album that you don't actually care about. No one actually

00:49:10.580 believes you wanted to create a dance album or an EDM album. And you hire Dr. Luke after like

00:49:15.440 publicly like distancing yourself from him and then waiting until Trump's back in office

00:49:20.840 to then do it with like it's just so like self-serving at the end of the day and that's

00:49:25.360 why I bring up the nuns in the lawsuit it's like that to me is like so uh emblematic of her issue

00:49:31.000 it's that like she presents one way publicly and it's all fun and then we we look for the

00:49:35.040 authenticity and once we get there we're like oh god this is kind of vile this is kind of

00:49:38.180 self-serving I don't know if I want to support her actually you know we haven't even talked

00:49:42.680 about russell brand in this episode and like oh god i forgot like oh it's so horrible like it just

00:49:49.860 it it really like all those revelations which were you know percolating before and that must

00:49:56.900 be horrible and it must be horrible to have to live with the knowledge of having lived through

00:50:01.160 that right yeah yeah and not being able to speak about it or not feeling like she could speak about

00:50:06.840 it and like putting that alongside the dr luke collaboration too like that's really hard it's

00:50:12.740 really hard yeah it's really hard it's really complicated and i and i think even in all that

00:50:16.500 complication if i was katie perry's friend i've only met her once in passing because i ran into

00:50:21.260 her and that wasn't even a meeting i don't know her at all i think my colleague sam sanders has

00:50:25.780 had to interview her actually so he's closer to her than i i ever will be now uh and uh i think

00:50:32.360 i would be looking for something from katie perry that contended with those contradictions you just

00:50:39.760 brought up and about my ex-husband was accused of this and now i'm working with this like i feel

00:50:44.920 like i have to the person that created my biggest songs was is also accused of similar things and

00:50:49.880 like i don't know i think i want to see her at least acknowledge her contradictions and how she

00:50:55.160 sits in between all these different worlds and how complicated it is for her however she acts like

00:51:00.140 it's not happening that it's not real and i think that we live in a world where everyone feels

00:51:04.040 everything happening so vividly that she makes no sense for you as a pop star and instead she's

00:51:09.240 taking solace in like the arms of the kardashians and yeah um what's her name uh jeff bezos lauren

00:51:17.440 sanchez yeah who are not asking her hard questions no no no they don't want to ask i mean it's they

00:51:27.140 want to live in a delusional state where the bare minimum will save the world you know jeff bezos

00:51:34.600 use that blue or the reason why a lot of people are very angry about the blue origin fiasco is

00:51:40.520 that his goal for blue origin is different than elon musk's and that elon musk wants to occupy

00:51:47.420 mars he has given up on earth he thinks we need to create you know systems of living in other

00:51:53.780 planets because this one will be destroyed however that's never going to happen and it's a

00:51:57.220 scam at the end of the day elon musk is scamming people but saying mars is the future jeff bezos

00:52:01.700 is arguing that earth is the future as long as we put all of our trash in space and we pollute other

00:52:07.120 places and we just like throw it all up there and then we're gonna be fine and we move all energy

00:52:11.940 production to space and everything else and that to me is why like katie perry fits into that so 0.79

00:52:18.860 perfectly she's like oh yeah yeah just get rich put your put your trash in space let's dance to 1.00

00:52:24.260 bad edm music let's just like not look below the surface let's literally put it under the rug throw

00:52:30.560 it into space and move on and let's put on full glam to go to space to promote this thing it's it's a 0.57

00:52:36.420 great metaphor it's really you put your trash in space and katie she's like literally putting her 0.66

00:52:42.100 trash in our ears right now we're like girl can we not this is not good it's not good okay so we 0.88

00:52:48.600 we were going to finish with a question that was about like are we going to regret this and i think

00:52:53.000 the more interesting question is is there someone that we regret piling on and i think like the

00:52:59.280 closest is britney yes it's different that is it is different it's so different like katie perry is

00:53:07.220 not in crisis that's true she's not in crisis like she is fully embodied and can make her way

00:53:12.460 throughout all of this i'm trying to think who would be the big comps for the 80s that are

00:53:18.840 similar to katie perry i don't know britney's a really good one that's the one that people feel

00:53:23.640 a tremendous amount of guilt over i mean we could say that right i think that that's the closest and

00:53:28.600 you know other stars that there have been like collective pylons of hate and that sort of thing

00:53:34.740 like thinking about elizabeth taylor like elizabeth taylor figured out how to weather that

00:53:39.160 shit some people collapse under that scrutiny and of their behavior and some people become 0.79

00:53:45.200 resilient in the face of it and i i know that elizabeth taylor suffered but she also like 0.94

00:53:49.420 became very strong i'm like other actors

00:53:52.880 i don't know but yeah i guess let's just we can see britney um all right so can you stick around

00:54:01.140 for our ask an anything question because it's yeah i think in line with a lot of these things

00:54:06.440 and will be more interesting for us to discuss.

00:54:08.740 Let's hear from Kate. 0.70

00:54:10.280 I'm wondering if there's a vibe shift happening right now. 0.94

00:54:13.240 We had our internet fuck around and find out moment 0.97

00:54:15.500 over the last 10 years 0.97

00:54:16.680 and people are starting to be more social,

00:54:19.340 maybe starting to rebuild their social muscle

00:54:21.260 after the pandemic,

00:54:22.520 worried about the well-documented loneliness epidemic.

00:54:25.960 Maybe people are sick of the polarized fighting.

00:54:28.740 Perhaps they're realizing that we miss

00:54:30.340 having some part of our culture that is monoculture.

00:54:33.400 Is this too optimistic?

00:54:34.400 i wanted to talk about this because i think it's true and like even the fact that you mentioned

00:54:40.840 that you know dating apps are on the decline people like this isn't working yeah um i don't

00:54:48.320 know if you have noticed this in your daily life but like even i've taken several extended breaks

00:54:53.280 from all social media but especially instagram and like i still use it but i'm changing my

00:54:59.780 relationship in pretty foundational ways and there are fewer people there there just are yeah people

00:55:05.540 aren't creating as much and i think that's what makes tiktok both so interesting and powerful but

00:55:10.900 also this like maybe canary in the coal mine for millennials uh is that we are not really showing

00:55:17.180 up at the levels that even gen z is not really showing up for tiktoks as much anymore um there

00:55:22.300 are like super creators and twitter was like that too when twitter when twitter was good there were

00:55:26.260 Like the 5% of people made all the content that 95% of people looked at.

00:55:30.360 So those trends are staying consistent.

00:55:32.200 And it's because people are so exhausted of being on and being in performative and not feeling anything real.

00:55:41.360 And so I do feel the vibe shift in my own life in that friends are now wanting to have dinner parties more.

00:55:46.940 People want to go on vacations more with each other and want to like spend a lot of money, especially millennials, on experiences together.

00:55:55.740 I even think you look at Coachella this past year.

00:55:59.040 Of course, people focus on the fact that people went into debt to finance those tickets,

00:56:03.460 which speaks to a larger macroeconomic issue we're having with a looming recession

00:56:07.640 and people just using Klarna too much, maybe.

00:56:10.580 But the bright side of all this was people are going to great lengths to be together

00:56:15.640 and to be together with other people.

00:56:17.980 Even there's a trend with DJs right now.

00:56:20.460 DJs are moving their sets from clubs to coffee shops into public spaces.

00:56:25.220 um you're seeing it happen a lot in new york where people take over a street and perish you'll

00:56:28.800 get these tiktoks people do the streets in la it's coffee shops at odd times of the day

00:56:33.300 um there's even like daytime parties kind of emerging in new york that are sober friendly

00:56:38.000 um sobriety i think is also a vibe shift and i don't mean that in a dismissive way i'm saying

00:56:44.180 like i think it's incredibly prominent in the discourse and a lot of it is people like post

00:56:48.300 pandemic being like gotta deal with some stuff right um yeah well i think to your point i said

00:56:53.600 the system the other day is that in the pandemic we truly in the beginning did not know if we would

00:57:00.260 be here next month we had no idea yeah and because of that we really took refuge in quick pleasures

00:57:07.040 we took the pleasures in maybe doing drugs that you shouldn't be doing at home drinking a lot

00:57:12.320 eating things baking more bread than you could ever eat but it's all about indulging because

00:57:16.660 you did not see yourself in the future we now live in a time where we've survived all of that

00:57:22.160 And we now want to see ourselves in the future.

00:57:23.760 That's why people feel so sad about Trump being president.

00:57:26.140 That's why people felt so sad that Vice President Harris didn't make it.

00:57:29.160 It's because we are beginning to imagine ourselves in a future.

00:57:32.880 And we want to make sure we feel good in that future.

00:57:34.880 Which is why things like sobriety are popping up.

00:57:36.940 Because that's someone saying, hey, you know, I don't want to be hungover for this meeting tomorrow.

00:57:39.980 Because I want to be my best self for that meeting maybe.

00:57:42.740 And that was not present a few years ago.

00:57:44.900 And I see that in the concert goings.

00:57:46.800 That they are going up.

00:57:48.220 I'm seeing it in the vacations people are taking.

00:57:50.640 Even marriages.

00:57:51.420 I think I'm getting more invites to weddings now.

00:57:54.960 Yeah, I see my friends are now getting married.

00:57:56.960 And now Tuesday, actually, in my mid-30s,

00:57:59.140 now all my friends are getting pregnant.

00:58:00.520 Like, that did not happen for a long time.

00:58:01.820 And now it's all popping up.

00:58:03.160 So I'm seeing, like, the seeds of future happening around us.

00:58:07.700 So that's the vibe shift for me.

00:58:09.240 And authenticity is very much tied to that.

00:58:10.840 Yeah, the authenticity, I think the in-person relation,

00:58:13.900 like, the frustration, the idea that, like,

00:58:16.660 the technology is not going to save us.

00:58:18.720 anger is not going to save us is another one yeah that i'm seeing right yeah i think people

00:58:25.520 are willing to know you know i always say anger is a secondary emotion no one's just angry it

00:58:30.200 sits on top of something and i think enough time has passed with our anger at lots of things that

00:58:34.700 we're all willing to excavate that what's underneath that a bit and i also think ai

00:58:39.860 speeding this up in a way because people are seeing a future where they may not literally

00:58:45.900 exist in labor in online presence or anything and i think their bodies are saying wake up wake up

00:58:52.620 you do want to be there i promise you you want to show up for this you may not want to do that

00:58:56.160 um you may not want to let that exist in the ways in which it may be existing in the future

00:59:00.560 um but at least fight for it as you see people in these little ways fighting for for being here

00:59:05.480 and i think this is you know part and parcel of that return to authenticity too is like the

00:59:09.320 rejection of ai generated stuff or like the acknowledgement that ai can do these things

00:59:14.700 so let's not waste our time on that thing right um so i was listening to a teacher talk about how

00:59:22.560 the way to get the way that they've managed to get their high school students really engaged

00:59:27.360 is by having them make zines like zines yes like because it requires that sort of tactile

00:59:33.700 collage like you cannot there it's not even just that it's like oh we don't want them to cheat it's

00:59:39.940 like how do you get them actually invested in something that there is no cheat like there is

00:59:44.960 no shortcut and maybe if you can find that thing like that's really addictive yeah i love that i

00:59:53.340 want to apply that to my own life what is the thing i could do that can have no shortcut as a

00:59:57.760 way to be present and be embodied because zines are it's a very tactile very material thing you

01:00:02.600 must do which is a great thing you know cooking dinner for your friends very tactile material so

01:00:08.100 yeah and also like i think this is a continuation in some ways of stuff that's happened during the

01:00:14.120 pandemic but like this real lean into hobbies and a lot of that is millennial specific and then also

01:00:20.600 like even that idea of millennial cringe like millennials being understood and understanding

01:00:26.200 themselves as cringe to me speaks to like we're cresting a wave of a different understanding you

01:00:32.900 know I agree I think the embrace of cringe is actually a good sign a sign of good like social

01:00:39.220 health and that you're willing to say you know that you're feeling something that you're experiencing

01:00:44.560 something in the world and I think like having cringe is not a bad thing at all because it's

01:00:49.020 you know you you did something at least you felt something because a lot of people why these dating

01:00:53.680 apps are declining rapidly is there is no real there is cringe on there that leads to just

01:00:59.200 disappearance and nothing being felt and no touch happening and i think people are feeling really

01:01:04.120 drained from that process and they want to feel touched and if it requires cringe then at least

01:01:09.100 someone sat next to them during it or something and and then along those lines too like a rejection

01:01:14.620 of optimization and an understanding that like optimization makes you feel nothing it's like

01:01:19.640 that's seeking frictionless when really friction is like the the stuff of everyday life and so

01:01:27.360 sometimes that's like going on a date or like striking up a conversation with someone at a bar

01:01:32.240 or risking like saying hey do you want to get coffee sometime not as a date right but just like

01:01:38.660 as friends or talking to an older person that you see on your walk like the hard stuff of community

01:01:44.520 and friendship and connection but i mean at least i hope i hope that's my also could be terribly

01:01:51.640 wrong the other part of the vibe shift which is like gospel pop and that turd right word with 0.86

01:01:59.960 younger men and all that shit so it's i was listening to the uh oh my god what's it called 0.84

01:02:06.180 hooked on pop yeah what is the switch on pop switch on pop switch on pop and they were at 0.99

01:02:10.460 the end they were like the charts are a mess it's chaos it's all of this it's this and that and this

01:02:15.120 soul's coming back and and they're like this is exciting i was like it's either exciting

01:02:19.080 or the signs of the end of times that no one knows what they want at all and it's just collapsing

01:02:24.480 we'll link to that episode of the show notes but at the end they're talking about like how there's

01:02:29.260 a hit song that's like jack black for 20 seconds from the minecraft movie which is like unwatchable

01:02:36.300 a movie so unwatchable but then i contrast that with like the week before they did an episode that

01:02:41.680 was all about the exquisite soundtrack to sinners which has been like a runaway hit that has convinced

01:02:47.880 people to go to the movies again right and like yeah elevating cinema so both things can be true

01:02:53.480 it both things can be true i used to when i worked uh briefly that briefly was actually a long time

01:02:58.340 i worked at grinder the dating app and we launched a magazine that i ran there for a few years right

01:03:03.320 and this was years ago at the time that all the dating apps were doing content because like

01:03:06.520 everyone's on the dating apps that's when people were obsessed and on dating apps for so so long

01:03:11.080 and um so we created a magazine and i would tell people that playboy also had reporting in it like

01:03:17.360 it had real serious journalism and writing the best celebrity interviews that existed

01:03:21.500 was incredible and i was like that is a sign that we all contain multitudes i can be looking at you

01:03:26.600 know a nude photo and then read an incredible essay by james baldwin like these things can

01:03:30.860 exist together and so that's kind of what we're talking here is that like either the charts are

01:03:34.320 showing us that like the movies are showing us that like we can watch like really shitty tv and

01:03:38.540 then also love sinners soundtrack and see the importance of cinema or we're just all losing

01:03:43.420 our minds and don't know what we want at the same time well in the height of playboy 1960s 1970s

01:03:50.240 peak of unrest like the world is on fire and we also there's a lot of good stuff happening at the

01:03:55.960 same time um this has been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for joining me thank you i

01:04:02.600 this is this is reason enough to live there are smart people still wanting to talk about culture

01:04:07.460 in the world thanks to us breaking down katie perry um where can people where would you like

01:04:12.220 people to find you if they want to find more from you oh instagram is great at sex staff blue sky

01:04:18.280 i forget i have it because i've turned off notifications across most apps so i forget

01:04:22.340 things exist i lost the muscle i like i can't i can't do it anymore i can't i rewired my brain

01:04:29.000 too much so i just can't but um but instagram i still that's still wired the neuropathway still

01:04:33.780 have me opening instagram me too and vibe check or of course and vibe check thank you well thank

01:04:40.360 Nikki, this has been the best time.

01:04:42.120 Thank you again.

01:04:46.520 Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast.

01:04:48.760 Today's episode was free for everyone.

01:04:50.800 So if you like what you heard and you want to support the show,

01:04:53.560 head to culturestudypod.substack.com.

01:04:56.120 It's five bucks a month or $50 a year.

01:04:58.420 And you'll get ad-free episodes, the Ask Anne Anything segment every week,

01:05:03.220 and weekly discussion threads for each episode.

01:05:06.100 And be sure to subscribe to the Culture Study Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

01:05:09.560 we have so many great episodes in the works and i promise i really promise you don't want to miss

01:05:15.060 any of them right now we're working on an episode about american accents and dialects

01:05:19.820 trends in book publishing and reading culture internet slang and how it permeates our language

01:05:24.420 irl see and a fiction concierge full of book recs if you want to submit a question for any of these

01:05:31.740 or maybe i don't know should we do one on sabrina carpenter if you have good questions we'll do it

01:05:36.540 or questions for any future Ask N' Anything segment,

01:05:40.580 go to our Google form.

01:05:41.760 It's at tinyurl.com slash culturestudypod

01:05:45.220 or check the show notes for a link.

01:05:47.440 And if you're a paid subscriber,

01:05:48.600 head over to the discussion thread

01:05:49.940 and keep the conversation going.

01:05:51.780 For today's episode,

01:05:53.060 I would love to hear what you think of our thesis

01:05:54.840 about why we have to performatively

01:05:56.820 or subconsciously disavow Katy Perry.

01:05:59.640 Also, what did we miss in this discussion?

01:06:01.740 Let's go deeper.

01:06:03.160 The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me

01:06:05.220 Anne Helen Peterson and Melody Rowell. Our music is by Poddington Bear. You can find me on Instagram

01:06:10.460 at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodias47, and the show at Culture Study Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - July 09, 2025

Why Is Katy Perry So Embarrassing？

Episode Stats

Transcript