00:00:48.060We've been working up to this moment for nine months, Kara delivering our child.
00:00:54.040I'm impressed that you know the gestation length of humans.
00:00:56.82040 weeks. 40 weeks. 40 weeks from the missed period, in fact. Yeah, I listen. I paid attention. That's not one but two parts of a birth episode coming home to roost right there.
00:01:08.120And as such, because Caro will be birthing new life into the world, we are going to tweak our regularly scheduled programming.0.95
00:01:18.120And we were just going to drop off at the face of the earth, but then both of our internalized capitalism got the better of us, and we decided we can't fucking do that.
00:01:25.200So instead, we are going to release one episode per month during Caro's quasi-maternity leave, and it's just going to be the paid episode.
00:01:35.360So, big apologies to our free subscribers, those freeloading on the backs of the paid subscribers.
00:01:43.120So, Caro has time to, I don't know, we haven't gotten that far in the birth series, so I don't actually know what happens after the baby comes out, but she'll be doing something with her boobs and probably a lot of sleeping.
00:02:02.140I was just, I'm going to make you do some lemonade stand metaphors today.
00:02:06.740Yeah, no, anyways, long story short, I think this has been an interesting conversation for you and I over like basically almost the last year because there are not many comps for what we do in the real world.
00:02:18.340And so it's been pretty interesting to talk about what a maternity leave would look like.
00:02:21.360there are some people who run podcasts who have gone on leave and who just keep up with their
00:02:26.080cadence but they either recycle content they've already done or they basically have the type of0.98
00:02:30.420podcast that doesn't require research so it's like you're just shooting the shit and you're0.74
00:02:33.900hopping on and I think you and I both feel very strongly that what we do requires a lot of time
00:02:40.320and it also we don't want to be replaced by other people like it wouldn't really be the same
00:02:44.120meaningful show if I had like an assistant doing the research and then I was just like hopping on
00:02:48.860auditioning new co-hosts for those three episodes. And we'll just see if anyone notices.
00:02:55.380Don't acknowledge it at all. Just like carry on as though it is normal.
00:03:00.280So I'm giving birth sometime in September and we'll be coming back in the new year.
00:03:03.940And if you want to keep supporting us throughout that process, that's fine. If you want to pause
00:03:08.560your paid subscription until we come back with two episodes a month, that's fine too. We will,
00:03:13.020of course, continue with our redistributions throughout this process as well. And I just
00:03:17.120want to god bless katie who had no control in me getting knocked up and whose livelihood is now0.99
00:03:21.740kind of fucked by it so welcome to america baby my eye twitching when kara said she wants to do0.84
00:03:27.000less work i'm like oh yeah that's fine that's reasonable what if i just did the other one by0.97
00:03:35.720myself i'll just do it alone dude i would honestly kill for that i think that's a great idea if you
00:03:40.620have a little nervy bee halfway through and you want to start doing that and talking to yourself
00:03:44.120and you have like a little sock puppet named Caro,
00:06:18.160I'm like, so you own a lemonade stand.0.99
00:06:20.060And you only sell lemonade to women, okay? So are you following?
00:06:28.720All right. Feminism is the belief in and advocacy of the social, political, and economic equality0.99
00:06:35.060of the sexes, supporting equal rights and opportunities for women. It is also an organized0.99
00:06:40.320movement that works to fix unfair rules and treatment based on gender. Okay. Okay, and then
00:06:46.680this is misogyny. All right. Misogyny is the hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women.
00:06:54.440It often shows up as an active dislike of women, a belief that men are better,
00:06:59.660or actions meant to keep women down when they want power or freedom. Okay, great.0.98
00:07:04.720So people often interconnect misogyny and sexism, and I think they're very similar. But TLDR sexism is more of the establishment of like legal discrimination or some sort of reinforced discrimination against women. And misogyny is more of behavior. It's more of a characteristics that we can all have that's harder to identify. And it's also pretty hard to punish.
00:07:27.820Like, it's not necessarily something that you can ban in the same way that you can, like, legislatively try to ban racism or sexism.
00:07:34.820sexism. Well, I think the other thing about misogyny, and actually this is analogous to,
00:07:39.840I think, things like racism as well, is it is so ingrained in the social fabric and in the culture
00:07:46.440that I think everyone to some degree is going to experience feelings like that just based on
00:07:53.520their presence in the culture that we live in. And I think that there is a kernel of truth
00:08:00.180in this discourse around some of these claims about influencers are rooted in misogyny where
00:08:08.000I will often have to catch myself when I'm feeling exceptionally annoyed at the behavior
00:08:13.820of a particular woman to kind of check like, okay, am I experiencing internalized misogyny
00:08:18.960right now? So I think it's not even as simple as whether something is or is not misogynist.
00:08:24.400I think most things do have misogynistic elements literally because it is the water we are
00:08:29.920swimming in. That is kind of inextricable from the broader culture and one another and ourselves.
00:08:36.160Yeah. I mean, for example, I am feeling internalized misogyny right now because you
00:08:39.480decided to show up in a cute outfit for a recording without telling me that you were
00:08:42.480planning on doing that. And I look fucking horrific. So I'm going to have you read a0.99
00:08:47.000section from The Cut, which is where this local kerfuffle on a very, very isolated enclave
00:08:53.920became a national conversation. It was an article in The Cut by Steph McNeil.
00:08:58.260another another episode of white on white crime on the diabolical lies podcast hey hey i will say
00:09:04.980from the jump we were interested in the lives of rich white women you can go back to our first
00:09:09.660episode the receipts no one can say that it was not the original sin of diabolical lies the real
00:09:15.840problem is when we did our episode on terrorism because we were like let's expand the premise
00:09:19.660got everybody's hopes up that there was more happening here that was nothing else happening
00:09:24.940here. And that was because Luigi Mangione was hot, okay? Wait, wait, wait, wait, really quickly.
00:09:30.160I was talking to Riley today and just fucking yelling at him because I'm pregnant. And I was0.99
00:09:34.100like, I want you to go on the podcast and speak on my behalf. And he said he's going to wear a
00:09:38.840shirt moving forward that says, clocking in as Caroline, clocking in as Osama Bin Laden.0.93
00:09:47.040Which is such an amazing Russian nesting doll. Okay, now go. This is from the cut. This is from0.93
00:09:52.020the gun. Okay. When John Sylvia decided to hang a sign in his family's antiques and handmade
00:09:57.560craft shop that read, no influencers, he wasn't doing it to go viral. Quote, the sign was made
00:10:04.140for people walking in the store or walking by and looking in the window, he tells me.
00:10:08.980That distinction perhaps illustrates his entire reason for posting it. Sylvia, whose grandfather
00:10:14.360started Sylvia's Antiques in 1927 and who later merged it with Four Winds Craft Guild,
00:10:19.640was born and raised on Nantucket, so he's used to seeing the tension that sometimes bubbles up
00:10:24.760between locals and well-heeled summer vacationers who pour into the 14-mile-long island off the
00:10:30.240coast of Massachusetts every summer. But as if all of a sudden, tourism has exploded on the tiny
00:10:36.720island, and he has a bone to pick with some of the selfie-stick-wielding customers this latest
00:10:41.720tourism wave has washed in. Sure, some of the young vacationers who visit his shop are great.
00:10:47.300They talk with Sylvia and his staff, asking questions about the famous light ship baskets
00:10:51.980he carries and learning the history behind them. But then there are the ones who enter and
00:10:57.220immediately start filming without engaging at all. Quote, a lot of people are tired of feeling like
00:11:03.120extras in someone else's video, he says. Quote, like, fucking talk to me. Talk to anyone in my0.98
00:11:08.920store. Open up TikTok or Instagram this summer and you can't escape Nantucket. A smaller,
00:11:14.320quote, sister island to Martha's Vineyard, the Massachusetts enclave's pristine beaches
00:11:19.020burst in colorful hydrangea bushes, and sumptuous lobster rolls are New England's perfection and
00:11:24.500look positively idyllic through a phone screen. Though Elan Hildebrand's Nantucket novels,
00:11:29.500and now their screen adaptations, have long drawn fans to the island, residents largely
00:11:34.200credit social media for this latest tourism boom. Quote, for better or for worse, Nantucket is having
00:11:39.640a moment Carly Reardon, a longtime blogger and content creator who has been singing the island's
00:11:44.880praises to her followers for more than a decade, tells me, quote, it's been the preferred location
00:11:49.800for influencer marketing campaigns. Nantucket, as a concept, has gone viral. Okay, as someone who is
00:11:55.800a Colorado transplant, this strikes me as like the mirror image or the summer version of what
00:12:03.720towns in the American West experience in the winter where you have like Aspen and Jackson Hole
00:12:09.720and these destinations that have now kind of become like billionaire playgrounds where people
00:12:14.720will go there and like cosplay. We call it like the Aspen costume that you see in the Denver
00:12:21.040airport where it's like leather pants and fur and like cowboy hats and all this stuff where you're
00:12:26.500like no one who actually lives in these places actually dresses this way or like comports
00:12:30.920themselves this way. One thing I want to point out immediately is the distinction in language here
00:12:37.180between people who view this island as, quote, a concept and people who live there. So again,
00:12:42.500you have this guy Sylvia saying the sign was made for people walking, looking in the window. He's
00:12:47.680talking kind of texturally about the experience of being on the island. And then you have this
00:12:52.340influencer, Carly Reardon, who is saying Nantucket is having a moment. It as a concept has gone
00:12:58.240viral, that really jumped out to me as a novelist who has had her book be described as viral this
00:13:05.760spring again and again and again, because I understand the implication and I understand
00:13:09.480what they're trying to say here, which is that this is something that has gained currency online.
00:13:14.560But when I see that, I often think, no, it's not viral. It's a bestseller. It's actually selling
00:13:19.340copies in the real world. And it's something that feels quite diminishing to me, frankly,
00:13:23.880To describe my novel as viral, even if conversations about it are going viral, I have this moment where it's almost like the digitization of a physical product.
00:13:32.800And when I saw that Nantucket as a concept has gone viral, it felt incredibly ironic for me.
00:13:37.620When you think about the staging of the war, again, between influencers and people who don't want their lives to exist online.
00:13:45.420So, I'm going to have you keep reading a little bit more.
00:13:48.120In 2022, a local survey found the island's summer population had increased by 70% since 2014,
00:13:56.100estimating it could reach 80,000 or more by 2026.
00:13:59.860The town government recently approved funding for a study to quantify exactly
00:14:03.760how many visitors they are getting now, with Nantucket Current noting actual figures have been
00:14:09.000elusive. For Sylvia, everything about his business is antithetical to social media.
00:14:14.280The baskets he sells have a unique history that can only be appreciated by fully understanding
00:14:18.660their origins on whaling ships, and each piece takes months to make by hand. This isn't an item
00:14:24.340you can click to buy on TikTok shop, something he feels may be lost on those who have just seen
00:14:28.840images of the baskets online. Quote, they don't care about the history, Sylvia says of some of
00:14:34.020his younger customers. Quote, I don't want to sound negative, but they come in, there's like
00:14:37.940a group of them sometimes, and it can clog up the store. It's not a huge space. So Sylvia decided to
00:14:43.360have some fun with it. He asked a local artist to create a traditional wood sign reading No
00:14:47.900Influencers and hung it right above the baskets. With the help of his partner, who operates the
00:14:52.820store's social media accounts, he posted a photo of the sign on Instagram with the caption,
00:14:57.160came for the friendship baskets, stayed for the shade. Quote, it was kind of tongue-in-cheek,
00:15:02.040he says. It can be annoying, but I mean, I'm not anti-influencers. Huh, okay. That I think is kind
00:15:09.180of ironic because it's like you are sort of participating in the same attention capture
00:15:14.540game so the sign goes viral it gets picked up on reddit other stores start to parody it across
00:15:21.600the country some use it to also say no influencers other uses it to say influencers welcome and that's0.88
00:15:27.580when page lorenz gets involved and that's when this conversation becomes a question of feminism
00:15:31.840and of misogyny katie you've already kind of hinted at what you know about page lorenz so i'll just1.00
00:15:37.780add the little bio for her. So Paige Lorenz is actually now Paige Paul. She was recently married,
00:15:44.260but one of my little acts of feminism is that I refuse to name women by their marital names,
00:15:48.860and I'm just going to go by her former birth name. I'm going to dead name her. So Paige Lorenz0.97
00:15:54.260is a Nantucket local who grew up on the island. Her mother comes from a long heritage of basket
00:15:59.740weavers, and her father is actually a fisherman. I'm totally kidding. That's not where she's from.
00:16:04.400she is an influencer who often speaks up on issues related to feminist politics and women's rights1.00
00:16:09.300i'm just kidding again she she's an influencer with several million followers who grew up in
00:16:17.840connecticut with enough money to go horseback riding and attend boarding school to ski
00:16:21.800she became instagram famous when she dated such esteemed gentlemen as the actor army hammer and
00:16:27.680country singer morgan wallet she is now married you are hold on hold on hold on you should have
00:16:35.260led with that wait let me finish it gets better it gets better she is now married to a tennis pro
00:16:41.100named tommy paul she runs a pop-up shop on nantucket and this is why she got involved for
00:16:46.060her clothing brand called dairy boy oh milky boy that sells 90 sweatshirts with such inspired
00:16:52.580captions like Nantucket Dairy Boy. Up until this month, her track record of speaking out about
00:16:57.660politics was limited to one moment in the fall of 2025. Do you want to guess what she spoke about,
00:17:02.440Katie? Fall 2025? I'll give you a hint.