Diabolical Lies - How to Give Birth in America, Pt. 2

00:00:00.760 I'm so excited. Okay. Recording.

00:00:05.200 All right, ho. We're good. All right.

00:00:07.020 I'm scared.

00:00:08.380 You should be. You fucking should be. 1.00

00:00:11.020 Today's episode of Diabolical Lies is brought to you by Pregnancy Brain, 1.00

00:00:15.360 which, as it turns out, is extremely real.

00:00:18.260 And as I am on week six of Book Tour and month six of actually being pregnant,

00:00:23.080 I'm going to be honest and say I forgot sponsors for this week's episode.

00:00:25.900 And instead, I spent my free hour before this conversation because I did have a free hour before this conversation eating gelato on a park bench and thinking about nothing.

00:00:37.300 That's great. I told Kara that I wanted to research to prepare for this episode because I don't have pregnancy brain and therefore do not have an excuse.

00:00:45.340 And she told me to, and I quote, don't be a coward.

00:00:49.380 So here I am, bravely showing up, just stewing in my own ignorance to contribute absolutely nothing of substance, but good vibes.

00:00:59.120 I will bring good vibes.

00:01:00.160 And that is my promise to all of you.

00:01:02.080 You have to bring humor into the conversation today.

00:01:05.400 That's your job.

00:01:06.180 I can't wait to try to think about puns about maternal mortality.

00:01:10.280 Okay, so Katie, I decided I wanted to do this quote-unquote series about eight months ago.

00:01:21.640 It's like, I don't know, man.

00:01:23.460 It's been a crazy year.

00:01:24.220 Everyone's like, so when are we going to get part two?

00:01:27.720 It's been eight months.

00:01:30.020 I thought we would be like six episodes into this series.

00:01:33.700 Anyways, this is How to Give Birth in America part two.

00:01:36.940 You might need a refresher.

00:01:37.920 Katie do you remember literally anything at all from that conversation you know I knew you were

00:01:43.480 gonna ask me that so this morning I was trying to remember I just remember this theme of like

00:01:49.660 the idea that childbirth is supernatural and our bodies were made to do this is like

00:01:55.040 not quite right like true in some ways but not in others because of our like

00:02:00.340 anatomical, standing upright, etc. We talked about pelvic floor stuff. I vaguely recall that.

00:02:10.660 Uterine prolapse. I made you watch a labor video and you squealed.

00:02:16.280 Okay, so I would, for anyone who's listening and who hasn't listened to that episode,

00:02:20.620 you might want to listen to that first. We covered essentially the 19th century of childbirth

00:02:24.400 practices in America. We got an understanding of what childbirth was like for women in America

00:02:28.920 a pre-hospital delivery normalization. We got an understanding of how Puritan culture in particular

00:02:34.680 drove beliefs around childbirth. Oh yeah, I forgot how much we talked about midwives.

00:02:39.820 Yeah, we did talk a lot about midwives and their significance and all the varied levels of skill

00:02:45.580 that they had and how they were essentially in the process of being crowded out of the field

00:02:50.280 as hospitals were being erected and kind of established as an industry. So today, I want

00:02:57.260 to make two grounding statements that I actually made at the beginning of that conversation as well.

00:03:02.220 Number one, I always feel an urge to give like a million warning statements. We are podcasters.

00:03:07.180 We are not doctors or midwives. Omnibus disclaimer. Yeah. I feel like I want to do the thing of like

00:03:13.280 an insurance commercial where it's like everything that I say is probably going to be incorrect and

00:03:16.680 you should speak to a doctor and like don't make any decisions about your own personal pregnancy

00:03:20.120 based off what I'm talking about. This is entertainment. Yeah. The whole point of this

00:03:26.360 is talking about childbirth on a very broad scale.

00:03:30.080 And I think whenever someone is pregnant

00:03:31.620 or about to give birth or having given birth,

00:03:34.400 it's very personal.

00:03:35.680 And so I just want to say explicitly,

00:03:37.260 this is not about anyone's individual decisions.

00:03:39.820 We're also going to be talking pretty intensely

00:03:41.820 about a number of elements of birth

00:03:43.480 that have happened in the wake of hospital births.

00:03:46.900 We're going to be talking about the C-section at length today.

00:03:49.720 So, you know, listen to this at your own comfort level.

00:03:53.040 And the second statement is something I said to you

00:03:54.900 in that first episode as well,

00:03:56.360 which is that I am obsessed with childbirth and have been long before I became pregnant or even

00:04:02.960 knew I wanted to become pregnant because I just feel like it is one of those rare topics that

00:04:07.580 defies political categorization. Like we are constantly sliding left and right in our

00:04:13.540 relationship to giving birth and our relationship to motherhood. You'll see certain positions on

00:04:19.020 giving birth will move from being owned by people on the left to owned by people on the right.

00:04:22.780 I think it's a conversation that's defined by nuance, and there's often a pretty direct

00:04:27.100 tension in that nuance. So I'm going to try to highlight that as we go through this conversation

00:04:30.580 today. Because nuance always performs so well on the internet. Yeah, you know, I love to push the

00:04:39.860 buttons. Okay, so— Why are you so out of breath? Because I'm pregnant, Katie. And when you go

00:04:46.300 through that, I'll ask you why you're out of breath. When you're fucking six months pregnant, 1.00

00:04:51.000 And I'll go, why are you so out of breath? 1.00

00:04:52.640 And then I'll sock you in the head. 1.00

00:04:54.300 Okay. 0.98

00:04:54.920 So we're going to start today by reading a recent news story.

00:04:58.520 And then we're going to dive back into the history.

00:05:00.240 Yep.

00:05:00.420 And then we're going to end back in the present.

00:05:01.920 So this is a news story that has gotten a lot of attention recently, but it technically took place in 2024.

00:05:08.940 Okay.

00:05:09.100 Can I guess?

00:05:09.740 I have two guesses about what this is.

00:05:11.740 Yes.

00:05:12.320 Okay.

00:05:12.580 My first guess is that it's about that child birthing center in New York that gives out the Chanel goodies that was in the cut.

00:05:19.980 eh. Okay. But that was a good story. And then my second guess is that it's that story about the

00:05:26.420 free birthers. Also incorrect, but I do want to do a future episode on that one. When we do part

00:05:32.080 three in a year. When we do part three, when my kid is speaking and walking. When Caro's baby

00:05:39.260 starts kindergarten, y'all will get part three. All right. You just sent me a ProPublica link.

00:05:45.620 Oh, did they change their branding? That looks good. It does look good. The headline is,

00:05:49.500 she was in labor at a, oh, in Florida, like you. She was in labor at a Florida hospital. Then she

00:05:55.500 was in Zoom court for refusing a C-section. Holy cow. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to ask you to read 0.99

00:06:03.140 the first four paragraphs. This is about a Black woman who was giving birth to her fourth child

00:06:08.980 in 2024 when things went awry. It's difficult to put yourself in the place of Sharice Doily,

00:06:16.260 a pregnant mother of three who found herself facing a judge while in labor at the University

00:06:21.620 of Florida Health Hospital in downtown Jacksonville. She had arrived at the facility with a plan for

00:06:27.800 her birth. She wanted to try for a vaginal delivery, but she understood from years of

00:06:32.440 experience as a professional birthing doula that things don't always go as planned. She arrived 0.98

00:06:38.100 overnight at the hospital after her water broke. Doctors told her they were concerned about the

00:06:42.720 risk of uterine rupture, a potentially deadly complication for her and her baby. She understood

00:06:48.560 the risk to be less than 2% and repeatedly told doctors she wouldn't consent to a cesarean without

00:06:55.040 trying to have a vaginal delivery first. The doctors appeared to relent, leaving her to labor

00:07:01.180 for several more hours. Then a nursing supervisor wheeled a tablet up to her bed and informed her

00:07:08.060 she was in court. The reason? Failing to agree to a C-section. What? Like, during labor?

00:07:16.520 Yes, during labor. So this is a story that has been making the rounds over the last several

00:07:21.720 months. This is a story about Sharice Doily and about another Black woman, Breonna Bennett,

00:07:26.140 who also was forced to undergo a C-section during a Zoom court order.

00:07:29.740 Is this real?

00:07:31.120 This is real. So number one, I want to highlight some facts about this case. Doily was not just

00:07:35.880 a living, breathing adult woman. She was a birthing doula. Not only has she given birth to three 0.95

00:07:41.480 children herself, so personal experience, she is a professional. Number two, she had had three prior

00:07:47.120 C-sections, one of which had resulted in a hemorrhage, and she did not believe that she

00:07:51.900 should have had to have had those C-sections. Again, she understood the risks of uterine

00:07:57.180 rupture to be less than 2%. I watched the entire court hearing. At no point did any of the doctors

00:08:02.020 dispute that the risk was 2%. And we will talk about this more later in the conversation,

00:08:08.080 but to state it very plainly right now, Black women are always at a much higher likelihood 0.79

00:08:12.680 of C-section. We're going to dive into that more a little bit later. These are often for

00:08:16.260 reasons that are determined to be unrelated to their health or the health of their baby.

00:08:20.820 Number four or five, whatever, pregnancy brain, it's worth noting, Katie, that you are nearly

00:08:26.640 always recommended strongly emphasis on, almost mandatory, to have another C-section if you've

00:08:32.260 already had one. It's very rare for a doctor to feel comfortable letting you give birth vaginally

00:08:37.100 after you've had a C-section. That's why once a woman has one, she usually has the rest of her 0.99

00:08:41.920 deliveries go that way. If you want to try to have a vaginal delivery, they call that a VBAC, 1.00

00:08:46.620 vaginal birth after cesarean. But it's very hard to do so. You have to essentially argue often

00:08:51.840 against your doctor's wishes. You have to find a doctor who is supportive of that, et cetera.

00:08:56.120 So, when Doily was rushed onto this Zoom call court hearing,

00:09:00.460 not only was she currently in labor,

00:09:02.540 she asked for a lawyer or a patient advocate and she was denied one

00:09:06.080 because Florida court does not require a lawyer for this circumstance.

00:09:10.040 Emphasis, this happens in Florida.

00:09:11.860 Okay, well, that seems hella illegal.

00:09:13.960 Yes.

00:09:14.680 Florida court does not require a lawyer for this. 1.00

00:09:16.580 She had to represent herself in labor. 1.00

00:09:18.580 Oh, my fucking God. 1.00

00:09:19.960 She was the only Black person on this call. 1.00

00:09:22.380 She did not have a Black doctor or nurse. 0.81

00:09:24.200 She asked for, specifically, a Black health care provider at one point.

00:09:28.020 It's not clear to me if she ever received one.

00:09:30.720 During this call, the doctors mentioned recommendations from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists,

00:09:37.740 basically being like, they worry about uterine rupture.

00:09:40.120 But neither of them cited that the organization has a strong stance against court-ordered C-sections.

00:09:46.460 They deem those to be ethically impermissible.

00:09:48.900 So, we're going to watch a brief video of her having to defend herself on this Zoom court call. 0.58

00:09:54.240 Oh my God.

00:09:55.480 This was a three-hour long court hearing, I want to highlight.

00:09:58.700 Three hours? 1.00

00:10:00.200 During her labor. 0.52

00:10:02.400 As you'll see on this Zoom call, Katie, she's in a hospital bed with a bunch of white people just staring back at her. 0.66

00:10:08.680 So, okay, we're going to watch this.

00:10:09.600 I don't want to be a statistic.

00:10:11.960 And I came here out of precaution.

00:10:16.280 however i still have rights as an american citizen and as a patient that i am allowed to decide what

00:10:25.240 goes on with me and my body and my baby well let me ask you about that what about the risks of the

00:10:30.560 child that the doctors testified about some some risks and help me understand that

00:10:35.400 in regards to what because she's saying that the uterine rupture can cause the placenta to a

00:10:44.360 to abrupt and it's a lot of what ifs and maybes anytime you go into childbirth whether you do a

00:10:51.220 vaginal or a c-section there's inherent risk to the mother and the baby so if it's between

00:10:58.580 them choosing whether i have to live or the baby has to live i did tell them that i want to live

00:11:04.860 i have other children out here in the world that need me and that is my right because at the end

00:11:11.380 of the day if i die from a c-section nobody on this call is going to take care of my children

00:11:16.240 and that's just being frank okay so i am concerned about the well-being of my child

00:11:22.900 but at the end of the day with my background i can read a trace just like they can and there's

00:11:29.840 nothing that is saying that this is an emergency situation that i have to be rushed into a c-section

00:11:35.080 within an hour thoughts oh my god i i'm kind of speechless like i'm this entire situation is just

00:11:45.940 unthinkable but the calmness with which she just essentially argued her case very well this board

00:11:56.000 while she is in active labor like i've spoken to women before that are like during labor i like

00:12:02.460 couldn't understand English. Like, I was in so much pain. It was so intense that I couldn't

00:12:09.280 focus on anything. I felt like I was in a tunnel. It's just unbelievable to me, A, that she was in

00:12:15.660 that situation, and B, that she was able to navigate it that well, based on that 90-second

00:12:22.260 clip. But, like, I'm honestly having a hard time believing that it's real. I believe you that it's

00:12:28.140 real, but it just seems so outrageous. Well, we're going to keep spiraling down the rabbit

00:12:33.620 hole of child care in America. Oh, fucking hell. Doily ended up being forced into a C-section. 1.00

00:12:39.740 No! You're serious? Yep. She continued to labor for a few more hours. They determined

00:12:45.100 that it was time for her to go into a C-section. They forced her into a C-section, 0.87

00:12:49.200 and she had one. She had her fourth C-section. We are going to read a little bit from CNN about

00:12:54.840 another patient story. This is about Breonna Bennett. This is another Black woman in Florida,

00:12:59.900 so I'm going to have you read this first. Dude. Pregnancy is the only condition where Florida 1.00

00:13:04.880 courts have ruled that a patient can be forced to undergo unwanted treatment. Even a state

00:13:10.520 prisoner on a hunger strike has more rights to make medical decisions. Those rulings give the

00:13:16.780 state vast control over pregnant women. Okay, and then I'm going to have you read these two

00:13:21.840 sections from CNN about Breonna Bennett. Over the preceding years, Bennett had come to question

00:13:27.380 the medical reasoning behind her three prior C-sections. Each recovery had been harder than

00:13:32.860 the last, leaving her so incapacitated after the third that for two weeks she couldn't even go to

00:13:37.800 the bathroom without help. At the time Bennett went into labor with her fourth, her mother's

00:13:42.760 hip problems had gotten so bad that she needed a wheelchair and required some help from Bennett

00:13:47.480 to function. Bennett did not think she could care for all her family members while in recovery from

00:13:52.640 abdominal surgery, so she insisted on trying for a vaginal birth. So Bennett was also forced into

00:13:59.160 a c-section. She has since said that it felt essentially equivalent to rape to her and was

00:14:04.440 like one of the more profoundly traumatizing experiences of her life. This country has a

00:14:08.960 very long history of forcing cesareans on poor and minority women. In 1987, there were 11 court

00:14:15.320 orders for forced cesareans. In five of the 11 cases, those women delivered healthy babies via

00:14:21.980 a live vaginal birth while the doctors were waiting for a court order to come through.

00:14:25.700 So these doctors are saying, you can't possibly give birth vaginally. You're risking the life of

00:14:30.220 your child, but they were able to give birth because essentially the court order took so long.

00:14:34.620 Oh my God.

00:14:36.020 Okay, Katie, we're going to go back in our little time machine. We're going to go back in history,

00:14:39.840 and we're going to spend today talking about all of the contextual circumstances that are going to

00:14:44.000 help us understand the story about Sharice Doily and Brianna Bennett. So. Okay. Really light

00:14:50.280 question for you, Katie. What do you know about chattel slavery? What did they teach you in your

00:14:55.420 Catholic school about chattel slavery? You are just putting me like a little child-sized softball

00:15:03.460 on the tee for a t-ball game for this big swinging dick of cancellation right now. 0.95

00:15:10.480 What do I know about shadow slavery? 0.97

Diabolical Lies - May 17, 2026

How to Give Birth in America, Pt. 2

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