00:01:45.460We're happy to have you. I feel like most of our listeners probably already know who you are. But for those of you who don't, Katie is a physicist and renowned science communicator and author. And she works at the Perimeter Institute up in Canada, which is a really amazing place that I have been to a couple of times at Katie's invitation.
00:02:09.160i should have said it's katie's fault you know going but yeah and and also the author of the
00:02:17.360end of everything which is about the end of the universe and is related to what we're going to be
00:02:23.000talking about today and also has an upcoming book uh the title of which is how to build a universe
00:02:30.460okay so the first book is the end of everything and then in parentheses astrophysically speaking
00:02:36.020Yeah. And the second book is how to build a universe. And then in parentheses, theoretically speaking. So it's it's about what the universe is made of, how we know about that, how we build theories about what the universe is made of. And it's as the first one, it's sort of general public level. You know, it's not a technical book, but it does get into some very interesting ideas, I think.
00:03:03.960So I feel like there's kind of a you break it, you bought it kind of thing here. Like the first book is about how to end the universe and the second book is how to build one.
00:03:13.600It was hard because the first book was about the end of the universe, and I wanted to write more about cosmology, but you can't write more books about the universe when you've already destroyed it, right?
00:03:24.300And so I thought, like, maybe this one will get more into sort of particle physics and stuff like that.
00:03:30.720And so it's not about sort of the history of the universe or even the beginning of the universe.
00:03:35.920It's more about, like, how does fundamental physics work?
00:05:34.680I kind of work in between the theory and the data.
00:05:36.940So I'm interested in, you know, if the theorists come up with this cool new idea about dark matter and then the astronomers have some cool new telescopes, like what can you learn from the observations about the model and, you know, what kinds of models are interesting to test with observations, that kind of thing.
00:05:53.420No, and this is not too far off from the area where I did my PhD in cosmology.
00:05:59.320And actually, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that's how we met.
00:06:02.640We first met, I think, in 2011 in the Azores.
00:06:18.220But, uh, the main reason I brought you on here today, aside from the fact that, you know, we're friends and you're delightful, is that this is a podcast that's sort of about thinking about what a good future might look like and thinking about the future is in some ways, like, what your first book is about.
00:06:40.700And really, I wanted to talk with you about staring down the end of the universe.
00:06:50.000Okay, so many years ago, when I was first starting out as a journalist, I wrote an article about the end of the universe for, I think it was the BBC.
00:07:00.280And I sent it to a dear friend of mine.
00:07:02.580And he had been reading everything that I'd been writing with interest, and he said he wasn't going to read that one.
00:07:07.580And I said, why? And he said, because when I think about the end of the universe, I get depressed.
00:07:10.700I said, I can think about the end of the world, but thinking about the end of the universe is somehow way more depressing for me. And I feel like that's actually a reasonably common reaction. So I want to talk about, yeah, how do you deal with that? And then we can talk about that.
00:07:29.600So one thing that occasionally comes up when I talk about the end of the universe is people want sort of a way out. And I have to say, in terms of what we understand about the science of cosmology, it doesn't end well, right?
00:07:48.960Like, the universe is going to end at some point in some way, and we get to that basically just by looking at how the universe is evolving now and seeing that, like, there are lots of different ways things could happen in the future, but all of them trend toward decay or, you know, disorder of some kind or a sort of fizzling out or something catastrophic.
00:08:14.120Like, there's always something, there's nothing that we know about that could keep the universe in its kind of happy, habitable state forever.
00:08:24.280Just in terms of how physics works, how the second law of thermodynamics says that things trend toward decay.
00:08:30.060You know, all of that kind of points to the universe is going to end at some point in some way.
00:08:35.340And when I say the universe is going to end, I mean everything that exists in the cosmos today will be destroyed.
00:11:23.780Um, but I think for me, you know, and I, and I don't have this idea that, that, you know, some higher purpose is going to come in and make it all worthwhile in the end.
00:21:47.420I was an undergrad at Caltech and there was this sort of seminar class where the way it worked was that all of the astronomy students, there are only like 15 of us or something, would go to the home of one of the astronomy professors and they would give us like pie and we would sit around and chat and they would like, you know, tell us something about their life or their research or whatever.
00:22:11.400It was a way to kind of like, so we get to know the professors and get to know each other.
00:22:15.960Oh, so it was a different professor every week.
00:22:18.900It was a different professor every week, yeah.
00:22:21.820And so one day we went to Professor Stroll Finney's house, and he was my undergrad advisor, so I knew him pretty well.
00:22:30.420He works on gravitational waves and stuff like that.
00:22:33.240And he was sitting there, and he had his little daughter on his knee, and his daughter was like three years old or something.
00:22:38.320And he was, you know, chatting to us about the universe and he started talking about this process of inflation that happened in the very early universe. And he was like, yeah, we don't know why that happened and it could happen again at any time. We have no idea. It's just like, what?
00:22:54.320this was like this was like a kind of universe tearing apart kind of process um and and it
00:23:03.940made me realize like yeah there are things that we we don't understand about what about things
00:23:09.900that we know happened in the past in the universe big universe changing you know structure destroying
00:23:16.240processes that we're pretty sure happened at some point and and you know even if inflation were not
00:23:21.960100% certain happened. There are other big universe-changing processes, like a transition
00:23:27.340in the Higgs field in the early universe that's connected to the vacuum decay process, where
00:23:34.680big things could happen in the universe and could actually affect us. And because we don't
00:23:41.360understand them, we cannot predict them. We cannot say that they're not going to happen right now.
00:23:45.920And at that time, it kind of freaked me out, you know, like just this idea that we are, you know, subject to the whims of these sort of cosmic tides that we don't understand and can't predict and have no control over, absolutely none.
00:24:03.740um it was it was a it was a uh sort of confronting moment and especially weird because there was this
00:24:12.220like little child and you know professor strill finney's up there like kind of smirking about it
00:24:16.360and this little girl is just like i'm sitting there having an existential crisis feeling like
00:24:21.960i'm no fall through the floor in any moment um so yeah it was it was an odd experience and i can
00:24:28.320understand how when other people learn about vacuum decay, they can have a similar kind of
00:24:33.560like, oh my God, you know, moment. And I think that the way I ultimately came to, you know,
00:24:42.800place of peace with that was realizing that there are just a lot of things in the world that we
00:24:48.480can't control. You know, I mean, you know, people talk about a meteor strike and that's more likely
00:24:54.480than vacuum decay by many orders of magnitude, like getting struck by a meteor, even though
00:24:59.220only one person in the history of the world has ever been struck by a meteor as far as
00:25:04.860That's like a more probable thing, and that's extremely unlikely.
00:25:08.580But like, you know, I could get hit by a car riding my bike or crossing the street, you
00:25:14.720know, or succumb to some consequence of climate change, whatever.
00:25:18.820Like, all of those things are big, you know, big uncontrollable forces that have the possibility of affecting my existence, and I don't control any of those.
00:25:31.320So, I think that what changed for me was I got a better understanding of the fact that, like, there are a lot of things in the world that we don't control, that we can't control, and most of them are not worth thinking about at any given moment because, you know, what are you going to do?
00:25:48.820Right. Even if I, even if I spend all my time freaking out about vacuum decay or cosmic inflation
00:25:54.420or, or, you know, meteorites, like what am I going to do? Nothing. Like I, I, it's better to live my
00:26:00.560life as though that's not going to happen or, or, you know, live a life as though it could end at
00:26:06.140any moment and just kind of find peace with that. Right. Yeah. But constantly freaking out about it
00:26:11.160is not going to help me. Um, and, and, and so it's, it's funny cause I, I do get messages from
00:26:17.380people who have that that response to vacuum decay and they write to me and they say I can't
00:26:22.400sleep I heard about this vacuum decay thing I'm full of anxiety and they want me to tell them
00:26:28.120it can't happen and I'm like I can't honestly tell you like it can't happen I can tell you
00:26:33.520you should talk to somebody but what I want to tell them is you're worrying about this very
00:26:39.220unlikely thing you should just accept that there's a lot of things in the world that you can't control
00:26:43.860And this is the least important one. There are other much more important things that could kill you that you can't control. I don't tell them that. If I respond, I mostly tell them they should talk to someone about it because these are experiences people have that take some discussion sometimes to find peace with.
00:27:04.440But yeah, I think that we as a species, a lot of us are at a point technologically where we have a lot of control over a lot of things in our lives.
00:27:12.360And so we want to think that we can control all these big things and we can't.
00:27:18.600I feel like we have the illusion of control over a lot of things.
00:27:21.780Yeah, I don't think that we actually have that control.
00:27:24.320One of my favorite authors who's a problematic fave, and I'm not going to name him as a result.
00:27:29.860But he said something in one of his books, Wants to the Effective.
00:27:33.700We don't have control over 99% of the things that happen in our lives.
00:27:39.820And most of the remaining 1% is whether or not we're going to accept that fact.
00:27:45.500I can control what I'm going to have for breakfast.
00:27:48.120I can control how I'm going to spend my paycheck.
00:27:50.200Like there's a bunch of things where I can choose what kind of car I drive.
00:27:55.740There are a lot of things that are in my control.
00:27:58.140And I think more, that's more the case than it has been for most people throughout the course of human history. And so that leads us to think like, oh, we have this level of autonomy, of volition that, as you say, we just don't at some fundamental level.
00:28:16.760And the likelihood here that we're talking about is, I mean, you were saying it's much, much less likely than being struck by a meteorite.
00:28:27.560It's also much, much less likely than the entire planet being struck by, like, you know, a giant asteroid like the one that killed off most of the dinosaurs 66 million years ago.
00:28:37.900So, like, there are other things that would end human civilization or even the human species that are way more likely.
00:28:44.200I tell people, like, you know, you're much better off, like, going out and campaigning for green energy or checking your smoke detectors, right? Like, those are the things to put your effort into.
00:28:55.460Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's your fire extinguisher? Do you have a carbon monoxide detector? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:36:28.380You know, so in some sense, it's a very peaceful way to go. But, you know, people find it troubling because it would kind of destroy everything. And the thing is that the idea that we are in that little divot, that we are in this what they call a metastable state, that calculation comes from the idea that the standard model of particle physics, our current theory of how physics works in our universe, the idea of vacuum decay comes from the idea that that is the whole picture of how physics works in our universe.
00:36:57.900And we're pretty sure it's not. We're pretty sure there's more to physics than the standard model, that there's some other, you know, maybe quantum gravity or something that might change that picture. And so we don't know for sure if it could happen if we are in that metastable state. If we are in that metastable state, you can do calculations about how long it'll be before that transition happens. And usually the answer you get is like 10 to the power of 100 years.
00:37:21.260but that's that's a decay rate right so it means that like on average it would happen after that
00:37:28.040amount of time meaning that like in any quantum event you can't say exactly when something's
00:37:33.200going to happen you can say you can give a decay rate for like you know a radioactive decay or
00:37:38.360something and say there's a half-life right there's a certain amount of time where half of
00:37:43.000your material will decay away but you can't say it for any individual atom when it's going to happen
00:37:47.540so so that's why you know technically it could happen at any moment but when you have a decay
00:37:52.760rate that that's that long you know 10 to the power of 100 years or more you don't expect it
00:37:58.920to happen soon and so that's why it's so phenomenally unlikely and so many other things
00:38:04.260are so much more likely like getting hit by a car yes exactly exactly okay so i think this
00:38:12.540episode is sort of turning into i ask you questions that people have asked me as a cosmologist okay um
00:38:19.520sure but i'm i'm thinking i'm thinking of another thing here as well that feels relevant here i have
00:38:26.860another friend uh who again will will remain nameless because i don't want to embarrass
00:38:31.660my friends and ask them for permission to bring them into this conversation um she doesn't like
00:38:37.880looking at the sky and doesn't like at the night sky and doesn't understand how I, you
00:38:47.600know, research what I researched for my PhD, what you, you know, do what you do for your
00:38:52.460work without feeling really like helplessly small and insignificant.
00:38:58.140And I feel like this is, this is related, right?
00:39:01.820These are questions about perspective.
00:39:04.620No, I totally feel helplessly small and insignificant.
00:39:24.940I think it's kind of liberating to know that, like, however I screw up, I'm not going to screw up badly enough to affect the cosmos itself.
00:40:05.820as as you know as your book covers quite yes uh yeah sensibly and some of those some of those
00:40:12.560people also want to have control over the entire universe and screw up so badly yeah and they want
00:40:18.520to screw up so badly that they that they can destroy it yeah yeah yeah no i'm glad that they
00:40:24.120don't have that power um i don't think that they're gonna you know ultimately prevail over
00:40:30.000you know limits to their own existence but uh but for me it's like it's just it's okay i don't it's
00:40:36.840okay to be small and insignificant sometimes and and i i don't ever think that i'm not small and
00:40:42.720insignificant and maybe that's maybe that's the thing i don't like if i get a reminder of it by
00:40:47.340staring into the abyss of the cosmos okay i i did know that like i mean it you know you can have
00:40:54.100moments of like vertigo right where where you realize that you're just this tiny little speck
00:40:59.160in this vast cosmic ocean as i think carl sagan put it um and the the you know the artemis mission
00:41:07.000artemis 2 where they they went around the moon and took lots of pictures of the earth from very far
00:41:12.260away seeing the earth as this little little small thing in the window that's confronting right to
00:41:19.000realize that even your whole planet is small and and and isolated and insignificant and just kind
00:41:25.460of tenuously floating there in the sea of black right that that's that's confronting but i think
00:41:32.400it's also awe-inspiring in a in a way it uh and and i i kind of like that feeling of like oh we're
00:41:39.700so tiny and insignificant i think that that's it's a bit thrilling this is why i'm asking you
00:41:44.740these questions you just articulated that very very well thank you i feel similarly i mean i
00:41:49.700I think that I think that this is part of the appeal to me is to look at the whole thing and say, oh, you know, look at this vast thing that I am a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of.
00:42:02.620And that's always been wrapped up like this is the concept of awe.
00:42:06.300Yeah. Right. It's always been wrapped up in terror.
00:42:09.440That's that's that's where it comes from, that idea.
00:42:16.660Well, what you were just saying about Artemis sets us up well for something very exciting here.
00:42:24.060We have our first audience question from a patron on Patreon, which was aimed directly at you because our patrons on Patreon get to find out who our guests are going to be in advance and ask questions of them or suggest questions for them.
00:42:40.280So this question comes from someone calling himself Toronto Will.
00:42:43.680He wants to know, can NASA's values, like collectivism and strength through diversity, withstand the onslaught both from Trump's presidency and from private space interests crowding them out of the field?
00:42:57.060Artemis was very reassuring that it hasn't happened yet, but it feels like borrowed time.
00:43:01.780Before you answer, I should say for our audience, Katie is an especially appropriate person for this, not just because Katie studies space, but also because Katie lives in Canada, but is from the U.S.
00:43:12.360It's a good question. I also watched the Artemis mission and it was very nice to see something that was displaying those values of everybody's working together, there's a big international mission, lots of competent people being competent, just doing the work and making it go well.
00:43:33.880And, like, a lot of people had to rely on each other, rely on expertise, combine forces to do this very hard thing. And it involved not just NASA, but the European Space Agency, who built part of the capsule they were in, the propulsion system for the capsule they were in.
00:43:52.680The Canadian Space Agency was involved, of course, one of the astronauts was Canadian. And that was really comforting at a time when, like, it was at the same time when there's sort of massive international chaos, conflict, war, posturing, the kind of attacks against expertise, against science, and to see something where, you know, the motivation for the mission was not purely about science, right?
00:44:21.700The motivation for the mission had to do with some of this national posturing, but it was a collaborative international mission, and there was science being done on it, science that probably would not have happened if it weren't for the funding coming through this national posturing thing.
00:44:40.340I'm glad that there was some science being done.
00:44:42.780I'm glad that it was a chance for people to see a crew working together so effectively,
00:44:48.700nations working together so effectively, you know, and it was a diverse crew, which I appreciate
00:44:53.720seeing that value is also being on display.
00:44:58.140And, you know, they couldn't have chosen a better crew.
00:45:03.120So cool to watch that, the interactions they had and everything they had to say.
00:45:07.740And they also very much made the point that they were doing this for humanity, not for the glory of the nation, right? And I appreciated seeing that. But it's hard to know what the current administration is going to do to that because, like, although there's still funding for the Artemis program, there are massive attacks on funding for science within NASA.
00:45:35.880and a lot of people at NASA have been laid off.
00:46:01.700And I think that if these science cuts happen,
00:46:04.780And, you know, it's going to be harder and harder to make these missions work because a lot of the people who are working at NASA work at NASA because it's about science and exploration and, you know, advancing humanity in certain ways.
00:46:21.340And if everything is cut out except the national posturing and, like, big rocket go fly, you know, like, then it's not going to be appealing to the people who have that competence and that drive and that motivation.
00:46:35.840And it's going to be harder to get that stuff done.
00:46:38.240And the research that needs to happen for these missions to be successful is not going to happen.
00:46:44.520And with this new round of cuts, they're trying to cut something like half of the space missions, the science missions that are currently planned, which would be awful.
00:47:48.140But I hope that these cuts are dialed back and that the advocates and the people in Congress and so on are able to impress upon this administration that you can't just have the big rocket and not the science.
00:48:03.460I just don't think that that is a reasonable mix for an organization like NASA.
00:48:10.640I do worry, though, about a culture of sort of hostility to expertise, hostility to basic science.
00:48:19.940You know, all the innovation and the technology and so on is not sustainable without basic science, without exploration, without pure research.