00:00:16.380A Black, Latinx, transdisciplinary artist and designer,
00:00:19.800they are currently moved and paused by the questions, quote,
00:00:23.340How can we allow as much room for God to flow through and between us as possible?
00:00:27.540what affirms the god of and between us what is the way how can we decompose what interrupts0.92
00:00:36.040our proximity to divinity what ways can black feminist placemaking rooted in commemorative
00:00:41.720justice promote the memory of god which is to say love and freedom between us
00:00:46.500you know we've previously discussed talking about the idea of pleasure in the apocalypse which i so
00:01:00.580often come up against the idea that we can't find joy because the world is burning and i know a lot
00:01:07.460of people feel that way and that we can't be in our bodies because we need to be in the struggle
00:01:12.700And of course, I'm drawing upon so much of Adrienne Rae Brown and Audre Lorde's work
00:01:17.240who negates this and proclaims that actually, when we're in our pleasure, our capacity is
00:01:24.400stronger because we can't be powerful if we are denying ourselves our full existence.
00:01:30.420So I'd love to hear you introduce your thoughts around this and if you have any thoughts on
00:01:37.300moving beyond the binary of pleasure versus suffering.
00:01:40.440and you kind of started touching on that or like around the proximity of suffering yeah well i want
00:01:46.000to first name like i've been really grateful for panar from queer nature's reflections on
00:01:53.220concepts of pleasure often only sexualized so what i'm about to speak to is like the dynamic
00:01:58.840ways we might encounter pleasure that could not be sexual or the expansion of the erotic into
00:02:04.720You know, something that is maybe not just encountered sexually, though I encounter it. I encounter pleasure often sexually. I didn't know it was going to be so hot. You know, the sun's really beaming down right now.
00:02:22.940I feel like yeah it makes a lot of sense to me and I have a lot of compassion
00:02:32.580for the immense suffering that is happening has happened is happening and is going to continue
00:02:41.800to happen to those most vulnerable to climate apocalypse and collapse and just the ways that
00:02:52.400you know, ways people are already not getting their basic needs met, the ways that that will
00:02:58.260intensify. And it's scary. And it's hard to imagine what you're saying, a capacity for
00:03:04.820still being enjoyed when it really feels so unknown. It feels so mysterious. It feels so
00:03:13.360scary. I feel like for me, pleasure is a daily meditation of embodiment, listening into a pulse
00:03:23.120of, does this feel right to me? And does this bring me joy? Does this make me come alive?
00:03:28.740And I think then we are more oriented towards what is ours to offer when we're listening into
00:03:37.820what makes us come most alive. I can't think of who it is that says this, but Esperanza Spaulding
00:03:44.400was bringing this up. It's in Farming While Black, and I've heard it multiple times, but it's
00:03:49.300someone who says we don't need people doing what they think folks need. We need people doing what
00:03:55.660makes them come most alive because that's what we need right now. And I feel like that's at the
00:04:01.160center of us being in our pleasure, which might be our ecological niche. I think it's important
00:04:07.620to interrogate if our relationship to what brings us pleasure is from a socialization of
00:04:16.320continuing injustice I think we should interrogate what brings me pleasure and why
00:04:23.980because some people right now are down for for stuff that brings them pleasure that is harm
00:04:29.520that is harmful to the land that is harmful to other people I don't think that's an accountable
00:04:34.220form of pleasure but I feel like this idea that we're going to be liberated through continuing
00:04:40.900feeling suffering or like feeling grief or being wrapped up by isolating ourselves or letting it
00:04:49.180all fall on top of us if you're going through that and I can see how people may not be resourced to
00:04:54.560not you know not go through that own collapse yeah I've been like in this submission role
00:05:00.800with collapse and with the earth of just like, take me, I'm on my knees and I want you to tell
00:05:07.880me what position do you want me to be in? Because I'm in a place of like, what do you need from me?
00:05:14.260What are you asking of me? I'm devoted for you. I'm fully devoted to you. I'm on my knees to the
00:05:20.020earth right now. And just like, and to black people, black people's liberation. I'm like,
00:05:25.100what what is needed for me and the and the voice that I keep hearing is be your gifts being your
00:05:31.700power being your love being your pleasure because we need that vibration right now we need a
00:05:38.160vibration right now collectively that is centered around us being able to have the capacity to dream
00:05:46.160something else into being and I think that that comes from a place where we're in orgasmic ecstatic
00:05:53.820states like I think that will come from like creating cultures of healthy ecstasy that bring
00:06:02.540us into trance into listening that jolt us into like letting our bodies be channels and conduits
00:06:11.020for liberation and that that can be like really exciting to be in that place where like I can't
00:06:16.540even access what the earth is asking of me and my role and responsibility right now especially if my
00:06:22.800shape for example folks who can't see I'm like turn inward and like shrinking how is the energy
00:06:30.100of love and freedom able to enter me when I'm like literally my shape is like this and I know
00:06:36.180people experience chronic pain chronic suffering and there's so many ways that I was talking with
00:06:41.820a former professor Greg Childs about he was talking about the ways the academy of white
00:06:46.880supremacy deforms us and limits our capacity for pleasure physically because some of us especially
00:06:53.600folks encountering environmental racism depression from this sixth mass extinction all of these
00:07:00.380things it's hard to feel your capacity for pleasure and I think that yeah that that can be
00:07:08.160elevated when we're in community with folks who are you calling in to help you out who is your
00:07:14.020support network who do you know who can who can you call together to be in some into shift maybe
00:07:21.080just yeah isolation is going to create more suffering so and maybe it's not humans maybe
00:07:26.920you call upon maybe you call upon the land or ancestors or or benevolent like spirits to allow
00:07:34.100you to open up just the prayer of like opening up may my capacity for pleasure be opened make up my
00:07:40.880capacity for joy be open. I've been praying recently, may I have so much space creator
00:07:48.400for psychic freedom, please. I need as much space for psychic freedom as possible. Please
00:07:53.800move any barriers out of the way that are preventing me from having psychic freedom so
00:07:59.180that I may facilitate that pleasure for others. If I'm feeling good, other people are definitely
00:08:05.020gonna probably feel good yeah that's liberatory i absolutely agree with you that when when one is
00:08:14.000in that orgasmic state of being alive and in their bodies and their pleasure and their erotic eros
00:08:20.280senses people are drawn to that people are hungry to feel alive and embodied in something that
00:08:31.440can shock us out of our autopilot mode of being in modernity. Being in modernity with technology
00:08:39.760and industrial civilization, I'll just speak for myself, it cuts me off from my orgasmic state
00:08:44.860because it takes my attention away from my body, away from most of my senses other than just the
00:08:51.120sense that the screen, you know, per se is trying to capture at that moment. And we're talking about
00:08:56.960regenerative power we're not talking about you know we're not talking about destructive power
00:09:01.900here but when one is in their power in this connection to the divine to eros to the erotic
00:09:08.480which i think is all the divine i think they're all synonymous with one another i think it also
00:09:13.420it sparks in people that wow could i feel like that could i possibly tap into that energy and
00:09:22.380And then it's like this curiosity of, well, what do I have to release about myself, about
00:09:27.700my identity, about my conditioning, about my consumer addictions in order to begin to
00:09:38.320I don't think it can be apart from the earth body when we begin to feel our own bodies
00:09:44.840awaken with the pleasure of what it is to be alive, even in this time.
00:09:50.380And I think there's something subversive about being able to hold that amount of pleasure while we're also holding the hospicing and the grief and to be able to feel the intensity of all of the spectrum of emotion, like what Joanna Macy talks about, the beauty and the terror together.
00:10:07.600it's such a delicious way to be in this time like i would much rather be in this empowered
00:10:14.220place of feeling at all than feeling like you know it's toppling on top of me and i can't i can't
00:10:19.720possibly get out from underneath the bricks similarly you mentioned thinking about the
00:10:25.780process of seducing people into liberation and questioning what is the capacity and limitation
00:10:32.940of sensuality in this paradigmatic shift like how does making movements a sensual space open
00:10:41.340opportunity for different kinds of engagement to emerge like what is the role of playing with
00:10:47.300erotic energies and muses that being said it also feels incredibly important to me to name that this
00:10:54.440conversation takes on different meanings and interpretations for those who have experienced
00:11:00.440different forms of trauma and shame around sensuality. So what does it take to hold a
00:11:07.220container of safety for folks to engage with movements as a sensual space? I love it. I want
00:11:14.260to be in my senses. It's when I feel most wild and I feel most in my calling if I'm just able
00:11:24.560to feel myself as a part of the body of the earth we all deserve that that memory that knowing that
00:11:31.300wisdom that yeah we should all be able to access and I think yeah it feels sad that like in our
00:11:39.740ways that we play with like resistance work and encounter our activism yeah especially I think
00:11:48.160in relationship to neoliberalism there's just these ways that they're disembodied the ways
00:11:55.820we're organizing are not accountable to people's bodies or people's rests or like what's actually
00:12:01.580the capacity of a human body and life to do a thing I don't agree with like still taking us
00:12:08.820into these same sort of industrialized ways of getting towards liberation in like that we are
00:12:16.520like industrial machines that have no need to rest or to feel or to deserve especially yeah
00:12:25.280pleasure so I think sensuality is so important and I think for folks who have had experience
00:12:31.940with trauma and sensuality and and where that sadly for so many of us has been cut off
00:12:38.220so many of us that cord has been cut for what that means and just flattened for what that means
00:12:43.960yeah for me like being in our senses can can come in such a multitude of ways and when I just
00:12:52.940finished Ginny Odell's text around resisting the attention economy for me it feels like when we live
00:13:01.140in a culture that's so predicated on taking away our senses literally everything about the culture
00:13:12.680is in design the experience of our technology right now is all about anesthesia what are the
00:13:20.820ways that we can make connections that reorient and redirect our attention back towards the earth
00:13:26.800and back into the vibration of our senses of our listening of our listening to our ancestors and
00:13:32.900for me the project of folks who so sadly are socialized who have learned to utilize sense
00:13:39.720connection in ways that are unjust, in ways that are harmful. And when I think about like
00:13:47.080advertising, I'm like, it's so sad that like the culture of advertising is rooted in like actually
00:13:54.520really understanding what our eyes move towards, like how our hearts are open, how we connect to
00:14:00.220things, what colors might we use, what sounds might people like and tune up to or redirect
00:14:06.560and focus their attention and I feel like sometimes in culture and politics of activism
00:14:13.380we're not appropriating this way that this whole culture of capitalism is moved both by our shame
00:14:20.480and also by like drawing us into our senses into our pleasures into our desire and so I think it's
00:14:27.900both about this whole thing about like making the revolution sexy and also like what would it be
00:14:34.520like to support people in reorienting what we think we desire what we think we want and to make
00:14:40.920being in the earth actually something that's very sexy I think a lot about this as someone who grew
00:14:47.080up in young black Atlanta and I'm blessed to have grown up around support as a young artist and
00:14:52.580support with black artists around me raising me and a lot of the people that I grew up with a lot
00:14:58.740of people are like they're just showing up and showing out you know they're they're really you
00:15:03.920know quote-unquote making it they're doing their thing and also I've asked myself a lot how do you
00:15:10.420ask a dispossessed people to renounce possession how do you support the reorientation of desiring
00:15:16.480perhaps something that is life-affirming and not like material oriented and for me I'm like how do
00:15:26.060we gather in public space to reorient and redirect our senses how do we appropriate propaganda how do
00:15:32.160we think about the practice of memetics in our work. I think about that a lot with led to life
00:15:37.480of the work with led to life, which one of the parts of our practice is transforming weapons
00:15:42.980into shovels. And for me, that's just about knowing really, it's so powerful when people
00:15:48.140hear it, they're like, whoa, they're drawn in, they feel the power of it. But that's not really
00:15:55.000the work. We don't need to make more stuff. We don't need to make more things that practice is
00:16:01.940wasteful we try to limit like how many shovels we make because what the real part is is that
00:16:07.640we know that spectacle is what people are drawn to people came to our ceremony in oakland in
00:16:15.160january because i'm imagining they wanted to see a gun turn into a shovel not everybody but like
00:16:21.000that's kind of fun to go watch people are moved by these coliseum these weird things these kind
00:16:27.560Roman traditions and paradigms of like going to see spectacle. And that has been used for terror0.94
00:16:35.840for so long. Lynching spectacle right now, the new technologies of racial terror lynching with
00:16:42.260watching Black people be harmed by police, that spectacle. And how do we reorient people towards
00:16:49.580encountering something that makes them pause, that makes them feel their body, that makes them
00:16:55.300feel their breath or invites them to feel their breath invites them to remember their senses
00:17:00.420invites them to rest and yeah i think art especially does that and um i think one of
00:17:07.260the main ways oppression continues is yeah by taking away our our senses
00:17:11.840Come down, come down revolution, come down, come down revolution, come, oh, oh, oh, come down,
00:17:40.980I'd like to read a poem by Rainier Maria Rilke,
00:17:51.280translated by Joanna Macy, who has been a dear teacher to Bronte and I.
00:17:55.620It's entitled, Go to the Limits of Your Longing.
00:17:59.180God speaks to each of us as they make us,
00:18:02.960then walks with us silently out of the night.
00:22:46.860And it makes me think of Baby Shugs, a character in Toni Morrison's Beloved, this section called The Clearing, where Baby Shugs is like, they're never going to love your body, so you need to love it.0.82
00:23:01.320She brings all of these people in the community into this clearing and she has them touch up on their neck, touch up on all your organs and your body, your flesh, because they want to do away with your body.0.85
00:23:13.360And so for me, it's so important to me when I see people who like want to just to dress themselves and they're just their own body.
00:23:24.040Like that is such an important thing. And then I think that like beyond that, like I think we're all kind of there's something from this documentary, The Cruise, where he's talking about rising to the occasion and just wanting people to rise to the occasion of the day, rise to the occasion of being alive.
00:23:41.260and I feel like we're not rising to the occasion of we're not rising to the occasion of being alive
00:23:48.740in the earth and that doesn't need to require money or makeup or any or these things to look
00:23:54.740good it's not about looking good again for like Eurocentric notions of beauty but like what makes
00:24:01.500you feel good and what do you see as beautiful and how might adorning yourself in that be a way
00:24:09.760of protecting your liberation and facilitating for others the trust that something else is
00:24:16.600possible. I know for some people, it endangers them to embodying what they feel is beautiful.
00:24:22.180For some people, they've had to neglect that because heteronormative and Eurocentric
00:24:27.560understandings of beauty, it's not been safe for people to actually like fully,
00:24:32.740to fully move into what they feel is beautiful. But yeah, what a courageous thing, I think, for
00:24:37.820queer Black community to be like, I'm going to fully embody and dance into what I see
00:24:47.920as beautiful for fems, for women, for everybody, for everyone to come into like,
00:24:55.300yeah, I want to be in my beauty. I think it's so important, especially when we've,
00:25:02.240yeah, we have so much shame and insecurity around ourselves. I know I do all the time still,
00:25:07.720And like, it's so sad. It's so, so, so, so, so, so sad. And I'm afraid sometimes not only in myself, but just in what I what I offer to my relationships to to the earth.
00:25:21.680I feel like I offer half of myself because we haven't been taught that it's safe to be in our beauty, especially when the ways I've heard you talk about this, Ayana, when oftentimes the ways we encounter beauty and the ways we relate to beauty is to extract, is to take from, is to think I want some of that.
00:25:44.240So I think there's something that you spoke to about subversion and beauty. I think there's something that we've been thinking about with led to life around how do we keep these kind of these boundaries and container around beauty where people are drawn into something very beautiful, very liberating, but where you can't take from it. It's protected. Yeah, it's fortified. Yeah. I think I think there's a lot of liberation wrapped up there.
00:26:12.180to be able to just experience beauty and see a wild being and just have pleasure
00:26:23.080in just the experience of knowing that that exists is beautiful we can see a rose that
00:26:30.340doesn't mean we have to cut it and then bring it into our house for us to experience the beauty
00:26:34.520of seeing a rose blossom i mean i'm using a rose because it's so metaphorical for beauty in our
00:26:39.780culture. But I do think that there is something about the safety of beauty. And that's something
00:26:45.580I've had to work through a lot around, oh, well, if I show up in my full regalia, will I be hurt
00:26:52.340in some way, shape or form? And I want to speak to those people who do feel scared. And for true
00:26:57.440reason, people have gotten hurt in their bodies. And I really think that this experiment in our
00:27:04.980minds of how we can work through even in our own lives experiencing beauty without extracting it
00:27:10.660and then you spoke to adornment and i remember speaking with martin prectel years ago and he
00:27:18.360talked about the people in guatemala and how they would adorn themselves to farm they would weave
00:27:23.460these incredible tapestries over their body for the divine this wasn't just for them to look good
00:27:29.400no i mean of course yes i'm sure they would probably feel beautiful when they put on these
00:27:34.300incredible outfits. It's about courting the mystery, courting the divine, showing up every
00:27:40.320day in this erotic, beautiful way to say, hey, earth, you are beautiful, and I am going to show
00:27:47.580up to be beautiful for you. I want to show up to be beautiful for my relationship to the divine.
00:27:53.140There's a lot of depth to beauty that gets completely erased because of capitalism.
00:27:57.980our relationship to it gets tarnished it becomes something pornographic rather than something
00:28:05.160spiritual and um i also want to say i was thinking about my last response
00:28:10.100yeah yeah yeah yeah i've i've definitely been feeling the connection to the erotic spirituality
00:28:19.840and and it's so much beyond sex it's not about oh you have this erotic energy you just need to
00:28:27.260have sex and then it will go away i don't ever want it to go away i don't i'm not trying to
00:28:31.860satisfy it's not about satisfying the erotic energy it's about tending to the erotic energy0.70
00:28:38.780it's about taking care of the erotic energy worshiping the erotic energy because that is
00:28:45.080i feel it i feel it so much and i i know patriarchy is very threatened patriarchy is very
00:28:54.480scared, especially for feminine or female identified folks who, and honestly, queer folks
00:29:02.160too. Patriarch is very scared for anything other than them to be able to hold the erotic energy.
00:29:07.120It's okay for them to be wanting sex all the time or be erotic. That's okay. But somehow,
00:29:12.940when it's the others that other than them, it's threatening, it's scary, it's too much,
00:29:18.220it's too intense and I really want to put resistance to that and tell all the people
00:29:24.540out there that are listening to feel a type of gratitude and honor to be able to feel so alive
00:29:32.220and there was something I wanted to speak to with my last response I was talking about the pressure
00:29:38.220of the movement spaces it's by design that these wounds are put into movement spaces I really
00:29:44.160respect people in movement spaces it's not even that i blame them for those things because i know
00:29:49.000it's not even them who have put these restraints on others it's a way of just living through the
00:29:55.580trauma that is from honestly i think coming from the outside within and so i just wanted to clarify
00:30:01.040my thought because i wasn't thought out as clearly when i said that but yeah my own journey with the
00:30:08.620awakening to the Anthropocene, to climate change, to global suffering and the Aramocene, the age of
00:30:15.300loneliness and capitalism and colonialism and all the isms that are just horrifying. So much of my
00:30:22.440journey was a lot about shame and guilt and feeling so heavy and feeling like I can't possibly be
00:30:31.260happy, erotic, pleasured. I can't possibly have those things because that means that then I am
00:30:37.680not fully aware of what's happening. For me to be fully in my awareness meant that I had to be
00:30:43.680suffering alongside and a lot of self-inflicted suffering, a lot of self-inflicted guilt all the
00:30:49.940time. And that to me felt like, okay, well now I'm being more authentic because I feel like crap all0.94
00:30:55.820the time and everything is crappy out there that this must be a way that I am a better human.
00:31:01.740I'm really seeing the realities and I'm really embodying the realities. And it's taken me a long
00:31:07.100time to get into this place where I feel that pleasure and feeling joy is actually beneficial
00:31:15.020to the movement. And I don't think that shame and guilt don't have a place. I was speaking with
00:31:21.500Padre Gautama, who's an Irish poet, a couple months ago, and we talked about shame and guilt.
00:31:27.040And I don't think that those need to be eradicated from our messaging about what's happening. I think
00:31:32.820it's kind of hard not to make decisions that are negatively impacting other beings at this point,
00:31:37.660just the way our system is set up everywhere we turn, we're hurting somebody. And it's horrible
00:31:41.860to be in that, in that type of relationship that's forced upon us, we're forced to be perpetrators.
00:31:48.200And it's a horrible, horrible feeling. And so I think the shame and guilt is important for us to
00:31:54.540really acknowledge and to know that yes, many of us are complicit in this. I don't think that
00:32:02.240staying in that is going to get us out of it i think it's an important place to acknowledge to
00:32:08.200work through to come to some something like gratitude for what is still living and ourselves
00:32:15.140included but yeah the balancing of the shame and the guilt and the pleasure kind of goes back to
00:32:20.580this idea of just feeling the full spectrum that i think it's completely possible and something i'm
00:32:25.940really noticing in myself, I can feel completely somatically turned on and pleasured. And at the
00:32:34.780same time, feel the grief of what we're losing and feel the grief of my role and my complicity
00:32:41.440in the suffering of other beings. And it goes back to the thing, we can be all of ourselves.
00:32:49.880We can be the self that is getting it and looking good. And we can be the self that goes home and
00:32:54.440cries and we can be the self that then needs to rest and we can be the self who just wants to
00:32:59.060power through. And I know for myself being able to come to a place where none of those pieces of me
00:33:06.460need to be shut down, the release that can come and then the power that can come to be on our
00:33:15.440knees to the earth and saying, I am all here. All of me is here. All of my beauty, all of my shame,
00:33:21.240all of my guilt all of my pleasure like is here for you to direct is here for you to tell me what
00:33:27.540I should do with this emotional capacity it's deep it's very liminal you can have a safe word
00:33:34.500with the earth I think people who really care right now who care so much who want who have
00:33:40.220like their compassionate hearts and love and want to want to show up you know similar to what I was
00:33:46.480saying about like creation I'm on my knees for you and like do with me as you please it's kind
00:33:52.120of like I would like to you know just with that prayer add on some more specifics of like and
00:33:57.840please be gentle on me and please please let there still be capacity for me to to find the imagination
00:34:04.960for pleasure in my approach toward liberating my complicity and systems of oppression may I have
00:34:11.740the capacity to imagine that there's pleasurable pathways there's hilarious pathways there's
00:34:18.220joyful clowning trickster pathways to do this and like it doesn't have to be through these modes of
00:34:26.340suffering that have gotten us here that doesn't make sense for us to continue to to embody that
00:34:32.160suffering and to just notice and touch into the ways we've internalized that and to ask for support
00:34:38.020where we can and how we can and to be mirrored in that, I think it's really important. I just
00:34:44.460feel excited for like liberation movements that touch into that capacity. I've done things where
00:34:50.080like recently I am completely embodying a refusal to be desensitized or to normalize what is going
00:34:58.600on right now, to normalize suffering, to be desensitized to suffering, to be able to scroll
00:35:03.560through suffering. I'm at a point where I'm willing to allow myself to encounter the
00:35:10.440indigestibility of it, to encounter the shock, though I'm not shocked, to allow my body that1.00
00:35:19.100space to touch into the suffering. And then to be also willing to know that it's not accountable
00:35:26.500to the earth to then isolate myself in that grief. That is not going to help anybody.
00:35:32.560And I've done that so many times where I feel like I'm the only one feeling how I'm feeling. And I'm feeling like this is just, you know, I feel mad. I feel sad. I feel mad. Like I'm crazy. I'm like going crazy. And I know a lot of people feel that sensation.
00:35:50.720and sometimes for me I'm somebody who it's very hard for me to reach out for help I feel like
00:35:58.540I've been socialized to be able to show that I can do things on my own and that made me successful
00:36:03.860or powerful is that I'm a powerful black woman because I can do everything I'm bad all by myself
00:36:10.440kind of kind of thing and it's been hard for me to say I need help it's been hard for me to say
00:36:16.440can you help me revive pleasure? Can you touch me like this? Can you hold me like this? Would you
00:36:24.060be willing to affirm me before you say something like that? Can you validate the grief that I'm
00:36:31.440feeling? And then sometimes, you know, like if you see your friends or people in your community who
00:36:36.920are isolating themselves, especially folks who are on the front lines or folks who are in movement
00:36:41.420work, reach out to them, ask folks how they're doing, like, especially I think people who people
00:36:48.080idolize or pedestalize and see them as figures. And that's happening a lot right now with social
00:36:55.000media and like kind of these like movement leaders who are helping us imagine another way as
00:37:01.100possible. That's just got to go in terms of seeing people as like these all knowing figures who don't
00:37:09.260experience pain. I think both for those who are empowered to be transparent that we need support
00:37:15.080and then for people also to not hold people to that. I feel so sad about like Greta Thunberg and
00:37:20.800Trutesca and these kids right now who are, you know, doing this youth v. gov work. And I'm just
00:37:28.460like, how are these children doing? Are people protecting and supporting these children's health
00:37:33.900and wellness and pleasure like are they getting to be children are they are these kids going to
00:37:39.320be get to be kids if I have a kid will they get to be a kid you know the scariness of that yeah so
00:37:45.940I definitely you know it takes a squat it takes a circle it feels already really good and expansive
00:37:51.900to be to be saying yeah to be calling in like a pleasurable way of of moving towards liberation
00:37:59.300And it's just something recently that I'm, like, able to not just preach about, but to actually feel. I just want to shout out Trisha Hersey, who I name as my minister, the Nat Bishop of the Nat Ministry, who, Trisha, when we first met, I just felt like it was more worthy to be an activist that could talk about how tired I was, how exhausted I was, how much suffering I've experienced.
00:38:27.400and that that made me more relatable and more what you're saying, more authentic.
00:38:31.620And I feel so much joy around Adrienne Marie Brown, Tricia Hersey's politic of pleasure,