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00:00:30.000Hey, For the Wild community, Ayana here.
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00:01:00.000Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today I'm speaking with
00:01:18.420Carol Ructichel, a biologist, naturalist, environmental activist, and author.
00:01:24.260We depend on wild areas. We depend on the earth and its ecosystems, plants. I mean, just for survival, for our physical survival as well.
00:01:38.280Carol shot the hooch with President Jimmy Carter, documented new species of lizards in the North Georgia mountains, and discovered that sea turtles were dying by the tens of thousands along the Georgia coast.
00:01:51.020She has lived on Cumberland Island for over 40 years and was instrumental in the establishment of the Cumberland Island National Seashore and its ensuing wilderness designation.
00:02:02.720Ruck de Shell has fought a lifelong battle with families like the Carnegies, Rockefellers, and Candlers, who thought of Cumberland Island as their personal playground and summer retreat.
00:02:12.760well hello carol thank you so much for joining us today for those of the long time for the wild
00:02:26.520listeners when it was called unlearn and rewild we did an interview with an author who wrote a
00:02:32.120book about you so it's pretty incredible to now be speaking to you directly and i'm really looking
00:02:38.500forward to diving into a conversation together well i look forward to being part of it really
00:02:46.520flattered that that uh you you cared about a place like cumberland island absolutely yeah
00:02:55.100it's a small wilderness but it's uh you know on the east coast we don't have too much
00:03:02.440left. Right. So it makes it that much more important. Yes. Well, I'd like to introduce
00:03:11.460listeners to Cumberland Island and why it is such an important place. And I wonder if you could
00:03:17.660share with us the sounds, smells and experiences of Cumberland so listeners can ground themselves
00:03:24.600in the islands, flora and fauna. And I know this small island is home to over 20 distinct
00:03:30.600ecological communities, from salt marshes and maritime forests to coastal beaches.
00:03:36.640So perhaps you could transport us to an area you are the fondest of.
00:03:42.760I'm particularly fond of freshwater wetlands, as counterintuitive as it may seem,
00:03:51.160being right there on the ocean. Usually with biologists, there's pretty much a division in
00:03:58.680marine and terrestrial or freshwater. So even though I've been on the island and worked with
00:04:06.260marine animals, the sea turtles and dead marine animals, my fondness is really for the freshwater
00:04:12.760outlands of the island. But for most people, of course, it would be the rhythmic churn of the
00:04:20.960ocean and lapping against the shore and the shorebirds screaming.
00:04:26.960But inland, it's just as beautiful with the frogs singing and a lot of water, freshwater
00:06:59.340The island was not just made in one fell swoop.
00:07:05.000So it was made over a long period of time.
00:07:08.980And so there are differing, the topography is significant in places.
00:07:16.340There are pretty serious hills in the middle, which were, of course, at one time dunes.
00:07:24.000And then less so in the middle, in the older portions, where it's leveled off and they farm the land, which there's not too much sign of that left.
00:07:36.160I mean, indirectly for an ecologist, there is because of the vegetation.
00:07:41.320But but for the average person, there are trees on what world fields now.
00:07:47.160And then the wetlands, of course, the newer, some newer additions along the paralleling the beach are freshwater sloughs in between ridges.
00:07:59.160And there are several of those, I mean, side by side, which make sloughs and hold fresh water and are very exciting, much younger topography than the old hills and flatland in the middle.
00:08:14.040And then on the other side of the island, the west side, where we've got the salt marsh.
00:08:19.320And that's a vast level plain for the most part, of course, as everybody knows.
00:08:24.900but and a totally different ecosystem than than any others so it's it's it's really it's an
00:08:32.800exciting place if you're a biologist because you have your choices of so many different habitat
00:08:38.540types yeah it sounds absolutely magical and you've spent most of your life gathering research
00:08:48.380on sea turtles across the island spending time with thousands of leatherback green and loggerhead
00:08:54.500turtles, all of which are endangered. And their potential extinction feels especially important
00:09:00.400to mention because these kin are some of the oldest animal species on the planet,
00:09:05.380dating back over 200 million years. Yet it has only taken a few decades for us to
00:09:11.880decimate their populations. How is sea turtle nesting faring currently on the island?
00:09:18.080yes it's really it's really been a pleasure seeing the numbers of nests go up when I first
00:09:28.760came I don't think a single nest survived I mean I'd see them and mark them and go out and every1.00
00:09:35.140day they were all gone and that was because the island was overrun with hogs and there was I'd1.00
00:09:42.280say there was not a square yard inland that wasn't rooted up by hogs they were just everywhere1.00
00:09:48.320and of course the the island people couldn't well they would never tried to control them but still
00:09:55.700populations of course especially on islands cycle quite a bit and at times of high hog populations
00:10:03.640I mean they were very very abundant so they they put a lot of pressure on the sea turtles and that
00:10:12.560was true on on most of our barrier our Georgia barrier islands and with the park since the park
00:10:20.360service has come they've since got a person that that who's one of his primary duties is just to
00:10:27.960to keep the hogs under control so they don't do that eat all the nests and they certainly don't
00:10:33.620They've been, that attempt has been very successful.
00:10:38.380And the conservation, other conservation of just, besides getting rid of the hogs or controlling the hogs, apparently you can't get rid of them.0.51
00:10:49.260But controlling them has been, I would guess, the most important thing for the sea turtles on all the Georgia islands.
00:10:58.620Well, it's good to hear that you're seeing more nesting. And yeah, I'm thinking about that it was in 1976, you moved into your home on Cumberland Island, that you rebuilt with scavenged wood, and have since led a life that has led you to be profiled as, quote, the wildest woman in the United States.
00:11:25.440And I'd like to ask you about this notion of wildness or perhaps your ethos of wild and what this has meant to you, especially growing up during a time when gender norms for women were incredibly rigid.
00:11:39.640So can you speak to the importance of reinstating our feralness, especially in a society that attempts to breed the love of the wild out of us from a very early age?
00:11:50.900yes and i yes and no uh by by that i mean i can certainly speak to it because i've always
00:12:02.820said i'm i mean i know about feminism and all that and i've never felt like i really understood
00:12:11.840that and and i think part of the reason was is that that i kind of didn't walk on the main path
00:12:18.200I was off in the woods always. So I never really ran into any obstacles that say you can't do this
00:12:26.100because I tried to do what I tried to do was away from everybody. So nobody there was nobody
00:12:31.940stopping me or trying to stop me or I had no real model. I just knew what I loved. And so I just
00:12:41.060went and did what i what i pleased um unlike people that have to fight to do if i wanted to
00:12:47.920be a telephone lineman for example i know i would i know at that time i would have run into trouble
00:12:53.740now maybe people have cleared the way and you could do a woman could do that but when i did it
00:12:59.320all i wanted to do was get away from people and get out in the woods and why because it was just
00:13:05.260I really I really can't explain why it was just that there was never any other way because I
00:13:11.760didn't kind of didn't fit into to what I saw as the norm of of our society at least at that time
00:13:22.720much better now yeah I can relate to some of those pieces and I'm wondering yeah if you
00:13:32.920i'm just thinking about um the gender dynamics coming of age in the 50s and 60s and the
00:13:41.560independence you found in rebuking dominant culture's expectations like so you were you
00:13:47.900know i'm trying to imagine you back then when you're moving to cumberland island and saying
00:13:53.380you know i'm going and um just the the courage that that may have taken at that point
00:14:00.520oh yeah well I was terribly excited and I'd been there I'd been there with one of my professors
00:14:07.060a couple times and I and so I knew it from one aspect and I always thought I'd end up in the
00:14:15.440mountains where it's cool and the hills and everything and that was just sort of a without
00:14:21.260thinking where I was going I mean I figured I'd end up there and then when the when the thought
00:14:27.760of the going to Cumberland it was like oh well am I sure I can handle this you know being on an
00:14:34.220island and in the hot and I was thinking I'd be up in the mountains and but after visiting at a
00:14:41.960time or two of course I fell in love with it and I realized it's every bit as wild and there's every
00:14:47.200bit as much to learn there as there is anywhere and that's that's the kind of thing that keeps
00:14:52.980me going is just learning new things about any kind of natural things, about natural systems.
00:15:01.580Yeah, many stories have been told about your lifestyle on Cumberland. And what this leads
00:15:08.080me to really think about is how the love of land and place changes you. It can call you into a
00:15:15.220certain type of fearlessness or remembrance that there are ways of being that exist outside of how
00:15:22.400we are instructed to live. And I know many listeners probably struggle with the mentality
00:15:27.820of feeling stuck within their rigid, industrialized lifestyle. But the life you've carved out on
00:15:34.980Cumberland is a testament to the reality that you can create something else. So what initially
00:15:40.800attracted you to Cumberland and how have you created this fruitful life within the margins?
00:15:46.400i guess the main thing that attracted me to it was it became available and and i saw a job i
00:15:57.280could take a job there and move there and have a place to live and i had to work but work is not an
00:16:03.020issue i'm happy to work and and so it was just it was just wonderful and and it turned out it was
00:16:11.260for three years and that was adequate time for me to realize that yes there are enough questions
00:16:18.280here to be answered to keep me happy the rest of my life and basically that's what it was about
00:16:23.180I mean besides loving the place and the and the wildness of it I mean it's far from pristine wild
00:16:30.000it's just there aren't many people and that's that's what I found very pleasant
00:16:35.720being here with you is like keeping my eyes open in the salty wind on the prowl of a fast boat
00:16:47.200saying wide awake letting worlds and hearts break
00:16:53.100stagging through my fields with the radio wall
00:16:56.640well this city makes me crazy it's a midden heap full bones
00:20:14.220Now, the only good thing there is that I've been told
00:20:18.200I'm not really a political person, too political, but I've been told that changing an act of Congress is not hard if you just want to totally repeal it.
00:20:29.420But if you want to change it, then that presents a problem.
00:20:32.400But if you want to repeal it, all you need is congressmen to introduce it, if they would support that.
00:20:37.800So we're all hoping that we can get the wilderness put back together and taken away from special interests.
00:20:44.240and then it'll be intact again and the beach will all be back in and in the north end and the main
00:20:51.420road which would make for a much better longer term preservation as it is now it's it's just
00:20:58.300yeah well it's been a mockery of wilderness truly so that's kind of sad but right now there's also
00:21:08.260So, or maybe, maybe, I mean, the chances of changing it are looking better and better,
00:21:13.440let's put it that way, of getting it back, putting it back together.
00:21:20.000And, you know, I was reading something about this, quote, potential wilderness.
00:21:25.120And what does that mean for a place like Cumberland?
00:21:29.180Well, I think all wildernesses, when they're established, go through that.
00:21:33.520there are areas with non-conforming use like such as retained rights and things like that
00:21:39.960um that that they just what all that means is when goes back all goes back to the the original
00:21:48.520owner the government then it can then it can be wilderness but it also takes another act of
00:21:53.220congress to put it in wilderness that's what i've been told so even though there may be a few places
00:22:00.060that could be put back in it may be i don't know the reasoning behind it but i was always put off
00:22:06.400when i ask about it that's the park service about it oh yeah so complex and nuanced land
00:22:14.960designations and management and um yeah yeah don't get me started
00:22:20.540i i hear that um you know you had mentioned something about tourism just a moment ago and
00:22:29.600Cumberland has long had a history of being the playgrounds for wealthy families like the
00:22:35.100Carnegies, Rockefellers, and Candlers, and currently the Carnegie family owns a commercial
00:22:40.620hotel called the Greyfield Inn, where guests can stay and be driven around the island's wilderness.
00:22:46.920And I mention this because tourism is still peddled as an alternative to extractive industry,
00:22:52.800but Cumberland proves to be another example of the inherent exploitation that takes place
00:22:58.580when people seek to make the wild profitable.
00:23:02.340So can you speak to what occurred on Cumberland
00:23:04.500when private interest sought to fragment designated wilderness
00:23:08.100for the purpose of allowing vehicle tours?
00:23:11.060And how was this one of the most substantial removals
00:23:14.440and fragmentation of wilderness in U.S. history?
00:23:18.680Well, it's really sad, and it probably comes, well, maybe not.
00:23:22.700Y'all are more used to how we being our society, our culture works nowadays with big money running everything and more so every year, it seems like.
00:23:35.880But that's what's happened to Cumberland.
00:23:37.600I mean, it's pretty shocking to see the concessions made, the concessions that were for the American people, and then now they're made to other people for other reasons to make money.
00:27:02.080And then the commercial tours that now can go from the south end up to the north end, drive around the north end, and go out.
00:27:10.580The nice way back is on the beach so people can see the beach.
00:27:15.280And so then they had to take the beach out of wilderness.
00:27:17.860So you can see the big circuit, the driving circuit.
00:27:22.080That's particularly devastating for the wilderness.
00:27:24.740And also in the legislation that removed those areas, they mandated that the park run bus tours to the north end.
00:27:38.120And those now, they've been shut down because of COVID, but they will resume.
00:27:45.640And that's devastating for somebody hiking up there.
00:27:49.160And also taking the road out of wilderness allows bicycles to be up there.
00:27:54.200So people have buses driving by them, bicyclists riding, and I've heard so many complaints.
00:28:02.640I mean, it's really, it shatters people's experience to be passed by a bike or a bus.
00:28:09.220There are also island people that have the right to drive there because they're going and coming, but they rarely do it.
00:28:15.500It's like, I try to explain to people, it's like in your neighborhoods, you don't drive all the roads.
00:28:19.920You have your little road to get to the grocery store or wherever you're going, and that's about it.
00:28:24.200And that's how it is on the island. Most island people aren't driving up and down the island all the time.
00:28:29.720You know, they'd rather not because of fuel.
00:28:33.620And the bus tours going up twice a day is that that's pretty devastating.
00:28:38.900yeah it's so important for us especially us as listeners to consider the impact of visiting places
00:28:48.280and how we can connect to the wild that is left and also take care of these places it's
00:28:58.880a conundrum you know it's um it's really challenging to interact and engage and not
00:29:05.860disrupt even more and yeah I definitely don't have the answers for that at the moment and maybe
00:29:13.640there never fully will be um it's so hard because we live such industrialized technologically
00:29:24.460forward lives at this point especially in the United States so it's like when we're engaging
00:29:31.820or interacting with these places we're not doing so in a really gentle way you know we're using
00:29:39.680machines that are cars we're we're bringing in so much with us and so i i think that also makes
00:29:48.560things challenging all of our modern needs as humans and how much we carry with us into these
00:29:57.040places and leave behind because of that so um yeah and just our needs for access and it's it's
00:30:05.540complicated it's really complicated yeah it's but and it's particularly sad that if if the
00:30:14.820administering agency is not tuned or supportive of wilderness it's even worse for example
00:30:21.580I had people come and tell me that they were camped at the northernmost campground on Cumberland Island, and it was dark, and somebody came up with a flashlight and warned them that there was a particularly heavy rainstorm coming and would they be all right.
00:30:39.920Now, they were in the wilderness camping, understand. And somebody drove up and hiked in to tell them that. And they were really offended. And rightly so. I mean, they said, of course not. We're going to stay. And it was just a heavy rainstorm.
00:30:54.500But that sort of thing, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how to fight that kind of thing. People that go and have experiences like that just need to advertise those experiences for other people. And so the Park Service will take heed and realize that people really do want to be alone. I mean, that should be a God-given right.
00:31:20.520we all need it i think some of us more than others
00:31:27.060yeah i do think there is a need for quiet and reflection and some of us um you know have
00:31:40.900more access to it than others as well and and um how we're able to find that
00:31:47.260source of connection even when we don't get to be in the wilderness I think is going to be
00:31:53.720one of our deep inquiries as we move deeper and deeper into the Anthropocene and climate change
00:32:00.980and who knows what else is coming for us so yeah this this deep inquiry of finding that type of
00:32:07.280quiet spaciousness in an increasingly noisy world yeah yes and then the two things about
00:32:16.980wilderness that people always ask about you know why is it significant and all that like you're
00:32:23.980just saying it's so important to our well-being our physical mental well-being to know it's there
00:32:29.740but but it is physical and mental in other words those people that were passed by buses and bicycles
00:32:36.380when they presumed they were hiking in wilderness which they were it's just that it was on each side
00:32:41.880of the road and it's not the road um we're devastated and their experience ruin but also
00:32:49.120physically um we we depend on wild areas we depend on the earth and and its ecosystems plants i mean
00:33:01.340just for survival for our physical survival as well and that seems to be forgotten because we
00:33:07.960cause of artificial fertilizer, and that means we can make hundreds of thousands of more people
00:33:14.500than the earth would normally sustain, and that sort of thing. We forget that it is physical
00:33:21.560as well as mental or spiritual or whatever you call it, I think.
00:34:07.940Your drunken limbs must just be aching
00:34:16.740And you twist it up this way you planned
00:34:26.820You're branching off, breaking your back
00:34:37.940And man, oh man, the things you've seen, you've seen, embers flying on the tree.
00:34:57.460Well, yeah, threats have long loomed over the island, ranging from development to extraction.
00:35:05.540but currently you're facing a battle against the development of Spaceport Camden.
00:35:11.240Can you begin by explaining what Spaceport Camden is and what threat it poses?
00:35:17.660What is the risk of exploding rockets in terms of all inhabitants of Cumberland?
00:35:25.640Well, I've gone through many NEPA reviews and comments on various aspects of things in the island and everything,
00:35:34.860But the one for the spaceport, which is immediately opposite the north end of the island on the mainland with intervening salt marsh.
00:35:46.580And then, of course, rockets will have to go over the salt marsh and waterways and then over the island to be even over the ocean.
00:35:56.100That was was I don't know how to put it.
00:36:01.440It's just that I could hardly understand it.
00:36:03.620In other words, in that first environmental impact statement they did for the rocket launch, they just said, oh, campers, oh, yes, that would be a problem.
00:36:16.940OK, we'll just call them authorized people and they can stay.
00:36:21.040Oh, somebody living on Cumberland, the rockets, which, of course, are going to go directly over my house.
00:36:26.220um oh well we can't it's illegal see they know that to to say i have to leave every time they
00:36:33.800shoot a rocket because this is for a private enterprise enterprise and that would be a taking
00:36:39.960and you can't just take somebody's property for that so they can't make me leave and so they just
00:36:46.240would call me an authorized person which to me meant i was sacrificial i it was fine they could
00:36:53.500do without me? And how that got by are NEPA people. But even worse now, and maybe I'm getting
00:37:03.500this too confusing, but even now, NEPA has been emasculated so that they don't even have to have
00:37:12.020public input. For example, back when that big, big four-inch, five-inch EIS statement came out,
00:37:20.740they were going to use medium to large size rockets that's what they were planning to launch
00:37:28.680and they had a certain failure rate this and everything which was apparently acceptable to
00:37:35.200most people but now since they received so much that brought so much controversy that they
00:37:41.520they've decided to go only with smaller rockets which have my understanding a 10 times greater
00:37:48.140failure rate. Well, would you rather have more small ones or one big one? I guess that's what
00:37:56.080it amounts to. But now the bad thing is they do not have to have any public input on that change
00:38:03.980because of something the present political administration put in NEPA, just emasculated
00:38:11.660NEPA, which is the Environmental Protection Act. So we're really, we, meaning the U.S. public,
00:38:20.300really in a bad situation here. And not being political, I can't suggest a way out except for
00:38:28.480people to get involved and learn about what's going on. And of course, there's a good website,
00:38:35.960No Rockets Over Wilderness, which I will explain all the details of that.
00:38:43.840And it just seems preposterous, and yet it's real.
00:38:48.640It's like reading something in science fiction.
00:38:52.000To me, especially because I'm right directly in the line of fire or under the line of fire.
00:38:57.880But also, one more little tidbit is that less than eight miles to the south of where we're launching these rockets, and in other words, you can stand on the shore and see where they're going to launch and look down and see big buildings, and that's where we store nuclear warheads from Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base.
00:39:19.360so there's just not a lot that adds up for me i'm a kind of common sense type person
00:39:25.640and and have trouble when things are so illogical i just really really don't know how to even think
00:39:33.400about it it's yeah yeah but but the answer is is for people to get involved i mean i've been
00:39:45.920screaming so long that I'm stale you know they don't want to hear they just look at me and go
00:39:50.140oh no here she comes again so you really need need fresh people new people uh out beating drums
00:39:59.720absolutely I I'm all for that and oh yeah the NEPA process being gutted is
00:40:08.640part of me wants to say it's shocking but it's not with how this country is governed but it's
00:40:18.320something that we all really need to be concerned about and need to look into because it's taking
00:40:27.460away our voice when it comes to managing our land and you know it's a huge deal for those of us
00:40:39.060honestly for everybody but especially for those of us who love the land and don't want to see
00:40:44.440more disruption and resource extraction and poisoning and stealing of the last bits of fresh
00:40:50.480water for more extraction for what you know for 99 cent store crap like for what what are we doing
00:40:57.260this for it's insane just thinking about the the chain of what all of this resource extraction and0.75
00:41:04.500all of this development leads to it just leads to more crap that we throw away in landfills halfway
00:41:10.280around the world it's not for anything valuable and um and so it's yeah it's it's just it's
00:41:19.080killing the earth to create trash i mean it's really insane so um yes it is but but but you
00:41:28.820know the root of it all the elephant in the room that no one will speak of is why and it's because
00:41:35.840we can because we have artificial fertilizers because we can feed more and more and more
00:41:41.980and sustainability is not in much many of our vocabularies any longer it's growth growth growth
00:41:49.060and that's not sustainable I hate to use the same word but it's not I mean we just can't keep doing
00:41:54.540it we can't we're not they're not meant we're like rats in a cage it's an addiction it's a
00:42:00.300it's been done it's been tested and you just can only put so many rats in a cage and the planet's
00:42:05.880a cage well I think there's an addiction to growth and consumption and um and yeah breaking
00:42:16.540that addiction and and realizing that this addiction is creating spiritual bankruptcy
00:42:22.680in us and that this is a really a question about um a spiritual reckoning of coming back
00:42:31.060home uh to ourselves and to this earth and and yeah but anyways i'm i could go down this
00:42:39.700existential rabbit hole for hours um but i do want to get back to this spaceport camden and
00:42:45.340It seems like supporters of Spaceport Camden argue that the project would bring in hundreds
00:42:51.720of high-paying aerospace jobs to rural Georgia, which is somewhat of a fallacy seeing as other
00:42:57.800projects have been unable to procure these results. But regardless, this highlights the
00:43:04.300intricacies and increasing threat rural wilderness faces as the capitalist economy continues to
00:43:10.220decline. So I'd just like to explore this topic with you a bit further in terms of
00:43:15.600what bolstering rural economies means for wilderness preservation and how you define
00:43:28.340uh it's for for one well i know that there's a you stop it carol okay um sorry um it's it's it's
00:43:46.020very true that that the the mainland opposite cumberland is fairly undeveloped it's there's
00:43:56.060the one the place opposite the south end is becoming more and more developed getting houses
00:44:02.220in other words the view from the island looking toward the mainland used to be just natural and
00:44:07.740and it's no longer that if you see houses well camden county and most georgia counties put
00:44:15.640very little value on any on any natural features they just don't see the value why do people want
00:44:24.340to come to Camden County right now, it's because it's not so highly developed. And yet it's only
00:44:31.000natural, according to our culture today, the people that work there in the Chamber of Commerce
00:44:36.940and all that want more and more and more development for more and more and more people.
00:44:43.540But they're missing the big part of it. They don't realize why people come to Cumberland even.
00:44:49.080I mean, they keep wanting to raise the limit of people that can come to the island, the park does. And that will ruin everything. Just like the opposite land, opposite it, the park should be fighting, and I think they are against the spaceport, because it's going to, not because so much of the few jobs it's going to create, which I understand is simply a few jobs.
00:45:19.080It's because we don't need that kind of development, if you will.
00:45:25.760I mean, not only is it a threat to our nuclear resources, for crying out loud, but to the island and the whole area.
00:45:35.440We've just got to get a better appreciation for undeveloped land.
00:45:44.560And maybe that's what you mean by wilderness.
00:45:46.700Of course, it's not wilderness over there.
00:45:48.580There used to be big signs along the place where they've got the, where they're going to develop the spaceport or propose to develop it, saying, what did it say, danger, unexploded ordnance.