00:00:01.000Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Claudia Serrato.
00:00:11.900And so when we return to these earth-centered gastronomies, we sort of recalibrate and hit that refresh button that creates cyclical relationality, cyclical flavors, cyclical tastes for all life.
00:00:28.380From now and on to the generations to come, which is inclusive of the next elderberry, the next cactus, the next hawk, the next bear, the next water, the next salmon.
00:05:42.080This is the Tongva, Los Angeles. And, you know, I honor myself, my body, my culture, my food ways, but I'm also very aware that, you know, it should also reflect the place-based geography, right?
00:06:00.700the relatives here the landscape here and you know it at first I kind of battled with that
00:06:08.600for a minute because I was really just consuming foods that were culturally relevant to me at one
00:06:13.880point in my life and you know once I began to spend more time in nature with nature as nature
00:06:21.020I began to understand the importance of you know eating what the land here provides for me
00:06:28.060you know it's a way that the land is is offering its gift it's saying here thank you please take
00:06:35.820and you know the lessons that have I've been taught is that if we do not accept the gifts
00:06:41.960then they're going to go away and so for me I understand that not only am I a mobile geography
00:06:49.080not only are my taste memories mobile but I'm also right residing in Tongva Los Angeles and so
00:06:57.260So I honor that through my foodways. I honor that through the seasons. I honor that, you know, through how I, you know, rehomed some of the ancestral plant relatives, you know, in my home space.
00:07:11.300I took out you know some invasive I took out my grass and I and I replanted you know from cultural
00:07:19.680burns some of the plants so that it becomes part of my like new memory right the new memories that
00:07:26.680I am creating by tapping into the different ways that I know right through my senses through my
00:07:32.820taste and ultimately I want to say honoring the trade routes and you know through the geographic
00:07:40.160location I am I am in and that is because you know before colonialism and
00:07:48.200even now because we have this particular global system that and food is moving
00:07:51.840you know from here there and everywhere right there was there was a knowledge
00:07:55.940exchange there was a pellet exchange a gastronomic exchange and you know that
00:08:02.960ultimately leads to you know vitality in how we eat and so for me understanding
00:08:09.740these particular geographies and how they come together, I do my best to represent them in
00:08:14.300cuisine. And, you know, it holds me accountable also because of the work that I do specifically
00:08:20.960as an indigenous culinary anthropologist and chef.
00:08:27.460Yeah, I appreciate both the small and the larger ways that you're doing this healing work. And I
00:08:36.540think it's a really good reminder for all of us that there's so many ways to begin for ourselves
00:08:41.960in our own journeys. And I want to thank you for sharing your identity and your rootedness. And
00:08:49.900I'm thinking a lot about the ways we can move beyond identity politics towards an understanding
00:08:55.740of identity that truly connects us with our ancestors and place, not just as heritage, but
00:09:02.500also as embodied spiritual and political tradition as well. So I'm wondering for you,
00:09:09.500what does it mean to exist as a sovereign person with a deep understanding of identity?
00:09:15.380Yeah, you know, I've been thinking a lot about that. I've been thinking about the cultural
00:09:20.260politics of identity. I've been thinking about, you know, my body as a sovereign landscape.
00:09:26.360And I also, of course, you know, can't help and think about it in terms of, you know, decolonizing my body, decolonizing my landscape.
00:09:35.980and but at the end of the day I think about you know my sense of self and you know what that
00:09:44.000means for me as an indigenous Chicana woman living in Los Angeles right who is constantly
00:09:53.340reminded you know and told that I have to be a specific way with you know the social construction
00:09:58.160of identity and so forth. And, you know, I've learned that, you know, identity formation
00:10:05.820is never like the same, right? It's constantly moving. It's constantly evolving, just like
00:10:13.760tradition. And so for me, you know, I might feel and be one way one day and, you know,
00:10:23.680I will receive a form of enlightenment or a message and that's going to really alter who I am
00:10:30.880the next. And so for me, it becomes more so fluid, like a fluid identity. It's constantly evolving
00:10:40.620and, but at the same time, it's, it's aware, right? I'm very aware of where I come from.
00:10:47.000I'm very aware of the history that has, you know, created who I am, the social aspects
00:10:55.640of who I am, but I don't hold on to that, and again, you know, that really aligns with
00:11:04.100my spirituality, it aligns with, you know, being with nature, understanding that, you
00:11:13.000know like the seasons right there's there's time to dry up there's times to
00:11:18.100go away there's times to shape shift there's times to bloom and and with that
00:11:25.960bloom not every bloom is the same right and so I'm I have learned that you know
00:11:33.820it's a beautiful experience it's beautiful to to take in what what is
00:11:38.080necessary for my growth to let go what is not and and to be open to what's to
00:11:44.380come and so you know when when thinking about my identity and an autonomy I feel
00:11:53.260that I have the right to to be who I choose to be and and not allow outside
00:11:59.980forces to tell me who I am and and for me that that makes me feel really good to
00:12:05.900be honest. And this goes right along the lines of, you know, my food choices and how I choose to eat
00:12:12.060and why and when and how. And for me, you know, that that really speaks to the kind of sovereign
00:12:20.880body that I choose to exist in, particularly during this time of, you know, the decolonial
00:12:30.080era, where we're beginning to remember and revitalize and regenerate those ways of knowing
00:12:37.460who we are that have been suppressed and oppressed as a result of colonization.
00:12:47.800Well, I want to move on specifically into your wealth of knowledge on food and cooking.
00:12:55.220And I want to think especially about the ways that enjoying food can be such a sensual experience.
00:13:04.600And I'm thinking particularly of the James Baldwin quote from his work, The Fire Next Time, where he writes, quote,
00:13:12.420to be sensual I think is to respect and rejoice in the force of life of life itself and to be
00:13:20.120present in all that one does from the effort of loving to the breaking of bread end quote
00:13:26.380and I'm wondering perhaps what part of this resonates with you and how do you connect to
00:13:37.460this element of sensuality across your work? You know, I love that question so much. It just
00:13:44.500makes me so happy just hearing it and hearing the quote you shared. It brings me back to the
00:13:50.620kitchen. For me, it's a very intimate space. It's a space where I'm very vulnerable, right? So
00:13:59.460for that you have to trust and for me you know that's the beginning of intimacy it's it's me
00:14:08.660saying you know hello I trust you and I trust you touching my body I trust how we're going to move
00:14:16.860together how we're going to dance together how we're going to liberate each other together
00:14:22.120um and you know when I cooked there's has always been this type of intimacy that at one point I
00:14:32.840really it was really hard for me to understand I I didn't understand I guess I should say many
00:14:39.560years back um you know because I did understand like this this this involvement this engagement
00:14:46.180in the kitchen with native foods with you know very intimate and years back I attended an
00:14:53.780eco sexuality conference and in hopes that I would become enlightened and it was just so wonderful
00:15:01.700because there was indigenous presence and Melissa Nelson actually began to talk about food as as
00:15:10.180intimate and and began to really speak on a type of indigenous equal sexuality and which was0.83
00:15:17.620wasn't the way we understand you know our popular culture understand sexuality it was
00:15:23.220you know a way of touching that brought this different kind of like i want to say this
00:15:30.900different type of comfort uh this wholeness and and i understood that because i was feeling that
00:15:38.740and and it began you know it would make me feel really happy to be honest with you
00:15:44.100and it wasn't until i began to you know prep food and talk with the food that it became more sensual
00:15:53.460it became very delicate it became this exchange my fingers were you know running through the food
00:16:01.540very differently and there was a feeling of satisfaction that was very different from what
00:16:06.820i've ever felt with other intimate relationships that i have and you know and and it wasn't until
00:16:14.820i prepared um a particular meal once that i took a bite of it and i actually paid attention to
00:16:23.380to my body i paid attention to my mouth i paid attention to the sounds i was making and i thought
00:16:30.660geez, that sounds real orgasmic. And it's because it was, it was, it was so satisfying. And, you
00:16:39.320know, it was just, you know, it was very different, but yet so fulfilling. And so I've truly have
00:16:48.440understood that, right, how we savor food, how our mouth begins to desire, taste, all of that
00:16:56.740is part of that intimate sensual experience and then more so once we actually take a bite of the
00:17:04.200food and it makes us go oh oh my goodness this is so great right there's like this deep joy
00:17:11.700and I'm sure other food lovers could understand that and for me you know I finally began to
00:17:20.320to really appreciate those moments because it was about, you know, me and the food exchanging
00:17:29.420and touching and, you know, tapping into my senses, the whole other, like, I want to say,
00:17:36.080you know, it's just like what we say, it's a next level experience. And, and, and again,
00:17:43.020very intimate, very soft. It's a type of, you know, food sexuality, I want to say, that
00:17:51.100really kept me and keeps me wanting to play with flavors and texture and, you know, be open to
00:18:00.480the unknown. I'm just remembering orgasmic food experiences and really how much pleasure
00:18:11.540that has brought me over the years and and I think in a time where we're being sold so many things
00:18:22.460to fulfill us how simple and beautiful fresh bread is you know and of course food takes its own
00:18:31.720energy to get to us but I just really want to pause on that for a minute because I
00:18:37.840I feel that. And I think too, there's something so vital and, and simple just about the act of
00:18:49.620cooking as well. And I'm thinking of the ways recipes are passed down and the communities that
00:18:55.180can form within kitchens and gardens. And I'm wondering if you could give us a glimpse into
00:19:00.400your kitchen, what does the act of cooking mean for you? Yeah. You know, when I was growing up,
00:19:09.420for me, I understood cooking as a domestic labor. I understood it as, you know, a place,
00:19:17.180the way I was told, right, it's a gendered place. And for me, it was really problematic.
00:19:22.680But it wasn't, again, until I began to really work on creating a relationship with food
00:19:29.260that I began to realize that no the kitchen actually was a safe and a brave space for me
00:19:37.960it was a space where I can explore or I can again be vulnerable and and more so where I can
00:19:49.040you know become the medicine woman right that that I have always you know sort of been destined to be
00:19:56.580um and it's become uh like mary de sabarca she talks about this as like a borderless
00:20:05.020unbounded zone right um this is the place where i have the ability to heal myself my family it is a
00:20:16.060place where i can take out my molcajete it is a place where i can you know bring out my my mortal
00:20:22.400and my pesto and pound my salts. It's a place where, you know, it's a decolonized zone, right?0.94
00:20:29.980There's colors, there's plants, there's ancestral realities that exist there. There are my ancestral
00:20:37.620foods that don't have to be in a place of submission. They're remembered. They are
00:20:43.960celebrated, you know, and it's kind of like when we say, oh, you know, there's a food, there's a
00:20:48.820party in my, in my stomach, right. When we're eating, I feel like, you know, it's, it's, it's
00:20:53.280that it's, um, it's a party, it's a gathering, it's a celebration. And so when I enter the
00:21:00.560kitchen, you know, I burn my sage. I, I, I, you know, I, I create my offerings. I thank the
00:21:08.620ancestors for being there with me, the elements, you know, I really have been taught to pay
00:21:13.520attention to how the earth resides in my kitchen how you know air water and fire how they play out
00:21:21.980in the creation of the recipes that I prepare for myself and or for my family also to the volcanic
00:21:28.720rocks and the wisdom that they bring into the kitchen and you know and and so it really humbles
00:21:35.680me and it makes me grateful to be in a kitchen to have a kitchen and more so to extend my
00:21:43.420kitchen beyond the four walls of my home. I have also created an outdoor space where I can cook
00:21:50.320and prep and where I can walk up to my mint and my poblano chiles and harvest you know right there
00:21:59.440and then and same thing with my front yard. It's an extension of my kitchen. I can go out there
00:22:06.740and i can harvest you know my fresh california bay i can harvest you know elderflower and you
00:22:14.460know all these um you know my my sage my black sage my white sage my culinary sage and so um
00:22:22.340it's a beautiful it's it's a beautiful um you know reality for for me because my kitchen
00:22:29.540is is open there's a flow and there's you know an honoring right of who I am who my family are
00:22:40.700our cultural heritage and our we're cooking technologies that were meant to be here just
00:22:47.420like our food right so it too represents resilience it represents going back to autonomy
00:22:54.300um sovereignty right we're thinking about you know indigenous food sovereignty like my kitchen
00:23:00.800has become that for me it's um it's a safe sovereign space and a brave space and you know
00:23:09.000where we're constantly rupturing the colonial paradigms of food and and when we eat and how
00:23:15.420we eat and so forth and so and two I welcome color so my walls are purple and and for me it
00:23:24.000just, you know, reminds me of, you know, being the royal person that I am. It really elevates
00:23:30.700me as a woman who has, who is continually thriving, you know, within the state that
00:25:59.520Soy la mujer, torvegino, soy la mujer, torvegino.
00:26:14.520Hey, esta tierra no te pertenece, hey, esta tierra no te pertenece, soy parte águila y pura serpiente, hey, esta tierra no te pertenece.
00:26:44.520yeah it just feels so important to be reminded to thrive during this time when so much of the
00:27:02.380media and so much of what we experience is really heavy and i think can be really wearing on us
00:27:11.600And so to find these simple, sensual, nourishing ways to thrive is so beautiful and such a good reminder. And yeah, I'm feeling it in my body as you speak. And this connection to the senses seems to really connect well with your understandings of indigenous womb ecology.
00:27:35.360And so often we forget the ways our environments, what we eat, how we talk to ourselves and others, come to deeply impact us at an intrinsic level, even in the womb.
00:27:48.660So I'd love if you can give us some insight into what is indigenous womb ecology and how it shapes how you view the importance of nourishment.
00:27:59.960I'm always happy to talk about indigenous womb ecology.
00:28:03.240And so I want to kind of backtrack just a bit so that way there's some context to this.
00:28:11.100So many years and years ago, I was really working towards understanding how our taste buds are colonized.
00:28:21.420And for me, I understood that one way to liberate myself, right?
00:28:26.300So before there was cooking, before there's food, is that my taste buds is what's really dictating what I'm eating and what I'm choosing to eat.
00:28:34.860And so for me, part of my decolonial mission was to decolonize my taste buds so that I can begin to crave the food of my ancestors, begin to taste the food of my ancestors.
00:28:48.220And during this time, I was blessed to conceive life and hold life in my womb.
00:28:56.300And I was really curious as to when taste develops within intrauterine life.
00:29:03.960So I began to research and, you know, what I had discovered was that amniotic fluid takes on the flavor of the food we eat.
00:29:12.840And this made sense to me, particularly because within my cultural heritage, I was always told, don't eat spices when you're pregnant and don't eat this because, you know, it's going to be bad for the baby.
00:29:26.300And, you know, so it was like this question of curiosity that opened me up, you know, to studying and learning the impact of the food we eat while holding intrauterine life makes on and contributes to the development of taste within early life.
00:29:48.320And so immediately I began to eat everything you can possibly imagine, because I was very determined that I was going to birth a baby with decolonized taste buds, meaning indigenous flavors, indigenous memories, and, you know, really build a taste pellet that, you know, would honor the indigenous food ways that were culturally relevant to me.
00:30:17.520And, you know, I went down that rabbit hole and I began to also discover that there was actually work that was beginning to make those same types of questions, right, within even the hard sciences, began to really ask what are the impacts, you know, from that early taste development, you know, into adult, into elder life.
00:30:45.540and what was determined is that what one eats from the time of conception up to the age of two
00:30:51.420even up to five will ultimately make that type of determination and so for me then I began to
00:31:00.320understand this in terms of epigenetics and epigenetic memory which basically suggests and
00:31:07.340says that what what some of us are craving today and how some of us are choosing to eat is a result
00:31:13.600of what our grandmothers grandmothers grandmothers ate right and so this is also passed down you know
00:31:20.000within indigenous knowledge systems we refer to as ancestral memory but ultimately it's
00:31:26.520epigenetic or genetic memory and so for me right I was able to you know to you know put all this
00:31:34.360together in such a way that I was able to then expand into the doula world and into the midwifery
00:31:42.240world speaking with other indigenous birth workers who too understood that part of their
00:31:51.640role was to safeguard indigenous food as prenatal food and as postnatal food so that we can
00:32:00.320protect our babies from being victims to dominant food systems that would then take them away
00:32:09.640from wanting to crave and or eat their cultural heritage foods and so indigenous womb ecology
00:32:16.880is you know a combination of these particular knowledge systems that speak to reproduction
00:32:24.920that speak to health that speak to food sovereignty that speak to ancestral memory
00:32:32.580And so the work for an Indigenous womb ecologist would be towards revitalizing, remembering, and regenerating a particular type of taste palette to achieve food sovereignty through what we eat and what we crave for the next generations to come.
00:32:52.240yeah thank you for sharing some of those personal tidbits with us that was really nice to hear
00:33:01.880and thank you yeah yeah i guess following this thread of the conversation i'm wondering how
00:33:11.180does understanding womb ecology show us a different less insular way of understanding
00:33:17.280the body and perhaps connect more intimately to a world of senses, smells, tastes, and
00:36:36.820Oh, this is really bringing me a lot of joy hearing your responses.
00:36:44.080I think it's really easy to get mired in what's wrong with the world, and it's really important for us to be reminded of the beauty and the connections that we still have so much access to if we dedicate ourselves to our senses and these connections.
00:37:04.220And I'm just thinking about how tradition is such an active and evolving reality and
00:37:13.540it must be practiced to be maintained.
00:37:17.460So I'm wondering how do these memories forge connections that challenge linear versions
00:37:22.720of time and static views of tradition?
00:37:27.260Yeah, you know, it's really interesting because there's this idea, like you just
00:37:33.840shared that tradition is like it's never changing right when we think of tradition some of the
00:37:40.920dominant ideas around that is that it has to remain and be the same as it was you know 10
00:37:47.120years ago 20 years ago and you know for me that's a misconception because the way I have understood
00:37:55.180tradition again for me has been through the kitchen through food work is that it's constantly
00:38:02.560changing it's constantly evolving and tradition is right is a remembering of those types of
00:38:11.620celebrations and the way that we gather and the way that we um interact with one another
00:38:16.720but it's to say that it hasn't always been the same right and you know when when there's
00:38:25.140conversations around you know ancestral and and you know traditional memory or ancestral and
00:38:31.300traditional foods it it doesn't mean that like there was there was never room for change it
00:38:39.400doesn't mean that that it was again one way and and the only way you know tradition it's situated
00:38:46.860within time place and space and it moves just like our bodies right like our mobile geographies
00:38:56.040they are culturally relevant they are culturally situated they do take on cultural meanings
00:39:02.500but it doesn't mean that they can't evolve they they they don't um like they change when they do
00:39:10.740and we see that again through through food we have um like the churro lamb out in the navajo nation
00:39:16.440right it was introduced however it has become part of the traditional diet right and so it's
00:39:25.480how we give new meaning and new experiences and how it shapes us, you know, culturally and
00:39:35.200geographically. And so, you know, when thinking about tradition, I really rejoice in being able
00:39:45.340to create new traditions, right? Moments and opportunities that my family can create to
00:39:53.320to gather and come together and to honor ourselves and the food and the symbolic meaning the cultural
00:40:02.280meaning that we have created to take on what we have decided to call a tradition and by following
00:40:11.240up with it the next year and the year after and and you know to allow it to evolve because it too
00:40:19.080takes on its own life and you know and it might within its own life within the tradition the
00:40:25.000tradition might tell us you know what i want this to change its change up or i want um you know to
00:40:31.160be more inclusive of of this particular way or this particular teaching and so and some of those
00:40:37.720teachings you know are our teachings from our ancestral past and and some teachings are those
00:40:45.080of the ancestral future right so we're talking about indigenous futurity and so it evolves there's0.98
00:40:51.320there's a whole um you know um a change of flow it's like this like you said earlier there's this1.00
00:40:59.080energy and so some of that energy is you know deeply rooted you know since time immemorial
00:41:05.960and some of that energy is the energy to come and so um we honor that you do through our practices
00:41:12.440this really is bringing me to a phrase that comes up a lot in your work which is eating for the next
00:41:22.400seven generations yes and it seems like this connects so well to tradition and memory and
00:41:29.420the connection we foster to the next generation to me this means far more than inventing sustainable
00:41:38.040replacements for meat or engineering less water intensive farming techniques. Although of course
00:41:44.020that's important because there's a vital spiritual and cultural aspect to it as well. So I'd love to
00:41:51.440hear how might we eat with the next seven generations in mind, considering not just
00:41:57.060sustainability, but also of course, ancestral connections and the importance of food that
00:42:02.680fuels both body and soul yes so I love this when I began to really understand my calling
00:42:12.860I began to really understand you know what the food was asking of me it was asking me to remember
00:42:19.940and I began to ask okay well why why do I need to remember and it was you know a form of
00:42:26.700accountability and it's like well you know you are the future ancestor and so there's a responsibility
00:42:33.820that comes with you doing this food work with there's a responsibility that arrives with
00:42:39.780the processes of remembering food the way you are the way you're preparing it and and you know I was
00:42:47.940able to understand that part of this responsibility was in fact so that the next seven generations to
00:42:56.060come right have the particular memories uh that we have worked so hard this generation has worked
00:43:03.200so hard to remember but also has access to the recipes the cooking technologies the taste the
00:43:12.760flavors and for me that meant right I have to bring back these foods like my ancestors and my
00:43:18.920relatives have said to me is that if we don't do this work then the food's going to go away
00:43:23.500And if the food goes away, then what does that leave for the next seven generations to come?
00:43:30.560And for me, that was like an immediate like alarm.
00:43:34.920I was like, no, because I understand and my whole existence is really centered around food, right?
00:43:43.100I come from, you know, food culture and it's like the life.0.82
00:43:48.160And so when I imagine, you know, what life would be like for the next seven generations without having access to the cultural food traditions and again, the meals and the flavors and the recipes and so forth, then for me, it really suggests that, right, what colonialism set out to do was to, you know, quote unquote, kill the Indian, erase us, you know, will happen.
00:44:13.600then you know where are we at when it comes to thinking about our identity and and not that i'm
00:44:19.660trying to play into like identity politics but understanding this a little differently in terms
00:44:24.920of you know cultural and and spiritual elements and for me i don't want to see that go away
00:44:31.740and so i have understood that this work today um yes it's to keep me and my family alive but
00:44:40.120more so to pass on right to continue the oral and all the different sensory ways of passing down
00:44:51.240knowledge right on maintaining the culinary epistemologies and being able to document them
00:44:58.340through like our cookbooks these days and you know other ways of how we engage with kitchen and food
00:45:04.720work so that they can tap into their womb ecologies tap into their genetic
00:45:10.360memories and thrive as cultural peoples and two right we're talking about
00:45:16.840autonomy we're talking about sovereignty and we're also talking about healing
00:45:21.040and we understand that food is our medicine and so this really speaks to
00:45:27.040the healing of a nation a healing of people and and who are these people
00:45:32.860these are the seven generations to come. And so for me, this is actually critical work,
00:45:39.160critical healing that has to happen, you know, critical culinarias so that we can continue to
00:45:47.300thrive as a people and as a nation, right, which is inclusive of human and non-human alike.
00:47:53.140I'm thinking now about how the earth has changed and in many ways that has alienated people from
00:48:06.720their traditional food practices, both geopolitically through colonization and also
00:48:11.640through changing soils, water, and temperatures due to climate change. And this change is not
00:48:18.440stopping immediately so how do we come to recognize the future of food as connected to
00:48:24.200ancestral foodways as deeply rooted but not as a not as an overly romanticized or you know in an
00:48:32.800unattainable past I guess yeah I mean you know honestly it it really it's not easy work
00:48:43.200um i'm here you know to you know just first-handedly say like this is it's gonna test us
00:48:51.840um it's gonna test our bodies it's gonna test our minds um you know it's one thing you know to say
00:49:00.500oh well we need to decolonize or we need to re-indigenize our food ways um and like eve
00:49:06.000tuck reminds us um you know it this is not a metaphor right like there is a critical praxis
00:49:12.320that needs to occur um that ultimately is is also gonna challenge us spiritually and um
00:49:20.800you know it does mean working with the land and and to work with the land you know it's very
00:49:29.200challenging um you know i've heard this many times you know from from folks and community circles
00:49:33.860like oh well we know all it takes is is we need to just return to the land or um you know we need
00:49:40.340land back and and it's such it's so wonderful um you know when we think about when we think about
00:49:45.680these concepts and we think about you know how how true we can make this be um you know but there's
00:49:52.040like the physical element right and it it we're gonna break sweat and and the truth is not many
00:50:01.400of us um have that physical ability um because of the way our bodies have changed our food habits
00:50:09.560have have you know shifted from eating cultural heritage foods to eating processed foods and so
00:50:15.120forth um our mindsets are are very are very different and um you know so it's definitely
00:50:22.860not something to romanticize I mean yes we can dream right but with any dream like we have to
00:50:29.920put in the work and so that work means yes we need to you know go in and pick up a shovel and
00:50:38.760sometimes we need to like dig holes we need to move tree trunks uh we need to squat and we need
00:50:46.300to climb and and then right we need to go into the kitchen we need to lift we need to chop um
00:50:55.280we need to pray and you know this this is I mean this is hours and hours and hours and days and
00:51:03.900years of work um this is not something that you know is an overnight experience and you know we
00:51:10.780have arrived this is something that um you know we we have to um be consistent with and and you
00:51:19.980know and it's going to take a while for us to even get to the place where we can say you know what
00:51:23.820we've been this has been restored and by restored i mean you know it's it's it's self-sustaining
00:51:29.260and you know we're not quite there yet and so um you know this this really means we need to open
00:51:36.760ourselves and again to our senses uh we need to be able to you know see and feel and touch and hear
00:51:44.020um embody and and it could be painful um you know processes of remembering are not always joyous
00:51:52.300I mean there's pain involved you know we need to reconcile who we are right finding ourselves
00:51:59.480having a sense of self some of us are not there yet and so definitely you know you know really
00:52:08.140creating a body to this is that yeah it's it's not all theory it's not all you know in the
00:52:17.400imagination you know this is something that we can attain but it takes you know it takes a village
00:52:24.320it's it can't just be one person it has to be many of us and you know what's wonderful and
00:52:31.060beautiful is that you know our plant relatives our earth relative is there with us they're just
00:52:38.480patiently waiting for us to remember and understand and be willing to sacrifice our time and our
00:52:46.600bodies and break sweat in order for us to be accountable like we would like to be and create
00:52:55.080a better place, a better movement, a better kitchen, a better palette for, you know, the
00:53:02.540generations to come. And so, yeah, it's a lot of work. It is a lot of work for sure. I mean,
00:53:11.180it's really worthy work though too i feel like so much of the work we've been conditioned to believe
00:53:19.680is worthy is really just feeding the destruction and not feeding our healing and i think it's by
00:53:28.840design that so many of us now don't feel comfortable sweating or squatting or getting
00:53:36.260our hands dirty or thinking that that's not worthy work uh and how it's been looked down upon
00:53:44.980and again i think this is by design that so many of us are uncomfortable in our bodies
00:53:52.580disembodied um you know and so i i really see what you're saying and i see
00:53:58.380what has been in a sense done to our humanity in this way to block us from being sovereign
00:54:07.300and involved and desiring to get up and really put our bodies to the land and yeah um
00:54:17.100yeah I don't know I just just had to riff off that for a minute
00:54:22.840but i also i wanted to read a little quote from this article because part of my understanding
00:54:31.300of the power of our diet is understanding their histories as well and you've written
00:54:38.840extensively on the ways indigenous diets existed pre-continentalization and were significantly
00:54:44.220changed by colonial forces and these forces are far from gone in fact you're quoted in the abc
00:54:52.120article, Through Food, Language, and Dance, Latinos Preserve Their Unique Cultural Identities,
00:54:57.940as saying, quote, if we're not cultivating and cooking and preparing cultural heritage foods,
00:55:03.860then not only do we lose the culture, but we also lose the sense of identity that comes with that.
00:55:10.000And then what happens? Not only would the food disappear, but we're also talking about the
00:55:15.280generational memory. So the songs, the ceremonies, the agriculture, the recipes, and flavors.
00:55:21.200and that's what keeps us alive it's what keeps us going what makes us resilient in that sense
00:55:28.100of identity that is rooted and grounded in food end quote and yeah in so many ways globalization
00:55:36.540and standardization of food has been a violent practice that has stripped so many from one of
00:55:43.520the most tangible cultural ties, which is food ways. So I just, I'd love to hear you talk us
00:55:51.080through the benefits of decolonizing our taste buds as practice, and in a sense, as revolution.
00:55:57.880Yes, yes. You know, I'm sorry that I'm laughing. It's just, you know, it's, it's,
00:56:05.720And it's one of like, like joy. It's, it's, it's one of like, congratulations, like, because, you know, when I began to truly, really like, 100%, like dedicate myself to this particular path, it wasn't well received.
00:56:27.920you know again i entered this in thinking about ways in which colonization was taking over my
00:56:35.440body as landscape and i thought well how is it doing this you know this is when i was um pursuing
00:56:41.960my first master's and you know i came across a quote um from queer aslan by sherry moraga
00:56:50.060where she states that our bodies were being colonized but white eurocentric heterosexual
00:56:57.320imperialist united states and for me i was like well how is it doing this you know i understood
00:57:03.240you know the colonization of the mind i understood like those different elements and and you know at
00:57:09.720the time i don't remember what exactly i was eating and i looked down and i thought through
00:57:14.680my mouth you know it my mouth is its portal it's its entryway and um and i was like i need to close
00:57:23.000my mouth and i need to you know liberate myself through what i eat and so immediately for me
00:57:32.920right decolonizing the diet was the path was the way um and so i would you know really you know
00:57:43.320with with different circles i was a part of um i would speak to you know why we need to decolonize
00:57:49.720diet and and you know what what what foods do we need to let go of or what
00:57:56.280foods we need to remember or what type of particular diet we need to return to
00:58:01.080and you know unfortunately many in my community you know I reside in in
00:58:08.280Southern California in my community many of my cultural relatives eat a very
00:58:14.580heavy meat-based diet and so for me to come around and talking about you know
00:58:19.420we need to eat with the seasons or we need to return to a more plant-based diet like our
00:58:24.780ancestors there was a lot of resistance to that and there was like no I'll never let go of that
00:58:31.300or our diet is meat-based and and so what I have come to realize is that part of that decolonial
00:58:39.440work is returning to our food histories and so you know if we want to arrive and get to that place
00:58:49.680where we can say okay yes um you know part of decolonizing means that we got to change our
00:58:54.800diets we need to consume more um you know cultural heritage corn uh we need to consume more chayote
00:59:03.760We need to consume more of a three sisters diet is understanding that that particular history that you two mentioned, you know, in the arrival of the Spanish, the mindset of the colonial body, you know, and to understanding how bodies became gendered.
00:59:24.620Like this is all part of that element.0.52
00:59:26.560This is what ultimately created a shift in diet.
00:59:30.760There was this idea that one body was more superior than another if one consumed chicken, beef, and pork versus eating an 80% plant-based diet and eating seasonal proteins like deer, quail, and larva.
00:59:49.820You know, that's one element, right, is arriving to that place and saying, okay, there was this
00:59:55.100shift that occurred. And then, you know, understanding the politics that have played
01:00:00.440out, right, in terms of the different kinds of economies and the food economies that have
01:00:04.940thrived and overwhelmed some cultures. And so like in Mexico, and how we see the changes of
01:00:12.440Mesoamerican diet, we have the carnecerias, the panaderias and the lecherias, which are
01:00:17.860um the you know the meat processing uh the dairy companies and and bread right and that became a
01:00:25.260dominant force um but if we were not eating those foods it meant that we were backwards it meant
01:00:30.940that right we were inferior people and so understanding that that too played out in the
01:00:37.320development of who we are and and who we're meant to be and who we don't want to be and what we need
01:00:43.840to eat and um you know so part of again you know decolonizing is understanding the food history
01:00:50.640the gendering of the body uh the introduction of the particular foods and why it is that we have
01:00:57.600for example tamales that have you know chicken beef and pork based versus tomato based avocado
01:01:05.600based um deer based quail based right because of this idea of superiority uh and then we have you
01:01:14.880know the the the dominant food systems that begin to thrive and and and again the ideologies of the
01:01:22.640rich and poor like those really became embedded you know through the social construction of
01:01:28.000identity and law and economy and um and then too right we have the industrial food revolution
01:01:36.540and we have you know those movements that occurred in terms of um you know concepts around eating
01:01:43.920processed foods as savior foods world war ii introduced nutritionism how we need to really
01:01:51.700focus on nutrition and and two there's so much lack of cultural heritage foods and the nutrition
01:01:58.880that you know is embedded in these foods right so that gets pushed to the side like folks are
01:02:06.120always asking me what are the nutritional benefits of cactus and it's like wow you know why is that
01:02:12.100not like in our food pyramids or in the food plates right in those kind of developments and so
01:02:17.540that decolonizing work means we need to also remember the nutrition the indigenous nutrition
01:02:23.320and by that it's not just breaking it down to its you know calorie intake but it's also
01:02:28.240understanding the the spiritual nutrition the cultural nutrition because that's what creates
01:02:35.220indigenous nutrition and then right um you know we have these these movements that are like you
01:02:41.960know the eat more movement right the supersized movement and so part of decolonizing is
01:02:46.640understanding that you know our ancestors and our relatives did not eat this way they did not eat
01:02:53.840in such a gluttonous way that was introduced early on in colonization there was a there was
01:03:02.180this gluttonous way of eating which which pretty much meant you know you were you had a high place
01:03:07.560in society and so returning to understanding like we talked in the beginning our ancestors would
01:03:14.400break their fast overnight and so you would reintroduce foods that were soft and gentle to
01:03:21.000the body like atole you would harvest and and process and squat for your food and climb for
01:03:27.200your food and grind your food and you know for the main meal of the day which occurred you know
01:03:31.960in the late afternoon and then to settle the palate we would then reconsume our cacao and you
01:03:38.540know as a beverage and so you know understanding to how we eat was is
01:03:45.380something we need to decolonize and how much we eat is something we need to
01:03:49.300decolonize because all of that is part of that colonial food legacy that is
01:03:55.700thriving today but understanding that all of that is part of this larger
01:04:01.160political economic like plan right um and so we need to decolonize our mindset and one way of
01:04:10.440doing that is by remembering our ancestral gardens our ancestral food ways and and not just the food
01:04:18.200but how we ate when we ate and and why and you know bringing back seasonality into that because
01:04:26.360that ultimately determined when we had access to um certain plants and vegetables and fruits and
01:04:32.600fungi and insects and and small game because it wasn't available all year long it just wasn't
01:04:39.340and so there's a lot of work there there truly is a lot um but you know it begins you know with
01:04:45.240one meal at a time and we can get there um but it's just going to take again going back to you
01:04:51.960know the work and yes so it's it's there's a lot there you know and and again when I arrived here
01:05:00.800I thought it was just so simple like oh I'll just change my food ways I'll just you know eat more
01:05:04.440plants but you know again I went down that rabbit hole and I discovered it's more than just eating
01:05:09.860more plants it's more than that. I'm feeling so riled up in a good way from that response
01:05:19.780i'm like yes um i yeah i just there is so much there and there is so much work but again
01:05:30.180i feel like so many of us are craving purpose and we are craving work that actually matters
01:05:40.120that feels good that's sensuous that is pleasurable that is sometimes yeah it's hard
01:05:47.700and it's challenging but again anything worth our soul's time is has challenges to it I mean
01:05:57.540that's just the way it is it's the way the cookie crumbles we can't we can't get away from that and
01:06:02.380so I I feel revitalized and I hope others who are listening
01:06:05.900feel that seed planted in us of being passionate to come up against those challenges and
01:06:17.500rise above in a way where we're being fed and nourished by the sensuous by the pleasure of
01:06:24.540food by the pleasure of hard work with the land and because I think at the end of the day it's
01:06:32.720so fulfilling and then we get to lie in bed and feel a sense of true connection and so
01:06:40.980yeah I just this has been such a beautiful conversation and has really gotten me inspired
01:06:47.680and yeah I'm just thinking as we conclude I'm really hoping that we can talk a bit about your
01:06:54.900philosophies on healing and relationality which seems like they point to an even deeper
01:07:00.580decolonial reality and in an article called ecological indigenous food ways and the healing
01:07:07.020of All Our Relations for Journal for Critical Animal Studies, you write, quote, it is possible
01:07:13.980to eat and live without disease and speciesism by remembering ancestral, ecological, cosmological,
01:07:21.520earth-centered gastronomies, which are natural ways of healing, end quote. And I just love the
01:07:29.060idea of a cross-species relationality and paying due respect to the kin with which we share this
01:07:36.080earth so what earth-centered gastronomies are healing and how are they healing to relationships
01:07:42.980not only between humans but also between our animal kin yes i'm so glad you you brought up
01:07:49.760this piece i immediately i was like we all heal you know we all heal and i think you know when
01:07:57.540we begin to truly embrace and practice an earth-centered gastronomy, then we are truly
01:08:06.980engaging in a type of healing system that is ecological. And by that, I mean, it's not only,
01:08:14.380you know, between human and human, but between human and non-human and between non-human and
01:08:18.820non-human, right? So we allow and make room for all to thrive. The land thrives, the plant thrives,
01:08:27.540The ladybug thrives, the hummingbird thrives, the hawk thrives.
01:08:35.100You know, it's this particular ecology that flows and moves in a way that was always meant to be.
01:08:43.500It wasn't meant to be disrupted at such a high rate that it was, you know, as a result of colonialism.
01:08:51.780And so when we begin to return to an earth-centered astronomy, we are also mindful of the seasons.
01:09:01.900We're also mindful of, you know, the particular elements that need to occur.
01:09:10.680We need to have, you know, this particular type of movement in the land.
01:09:17.000And, you know, one thing I was I was taught about many years back is concepts around ecological chaos and how important it is that we have worlds within a world within a world to exist and they all have their system.
01:09:33.480But when we begin to remember the foods, right, and eat in such a way, that means everybody eats.