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00:00:30.000Hello, and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today, I will be speaking
00:00:42.200with Craig Santos-Perez. Craig is an indigenous Chamorro poet, scholar, activist, and educator
00:00:49.300from the Pacific Island of Guahan, also known as Guam.
00:00:52.940In my own work, and I love how you described, you know, literature as a vessel or language as a vessel and thinking about how poetry, literature, even music can become that vessel of revitalization.
00:01:08.820craig is the author of five books of poetry and the co-editor of five literary anthologies
00:01:18.160he is an associate professor in the english department at the university of hawaii manoa
00:01:23.300he teaches pacific islander literature creative writing and environmental poetry
00:01:28.120well craig thank you so much for joining me in conversation today
00:01:35.680in honor of your recently released eco-poetry book, Habitat Threshold.
00:01:41.200Thank you so much for having me, Ayana.
00:01:55.940That really means the world to all of us at For the Wild.
00:01:59.640We are doing our work behind the scenes.
00:02:01.980And when we reach people, especially like you, yeah, it just makes this work so much sweeter. So thank you for saying that. And I'm really excited to have this conversation. The whole For the Wild team was so stoked to have you on. So I know this conversation is going to be beautiful and I'm sure our listeners are going to eat up every moment.
00:02:20.840So, yeah, I'm excited and I'm really, really looking forward to speaking about your book, Habitat Threshold. And in reading it, I was really struck by a particular sense of intimacy between you and the implications of a changing and polluted planet.
00:02:37.620I'm specifically thinking of your first poem, Age of Plastic, where you write, quote,
00:02:43.320My wife labors at home in an inflatable plastic tub.
00:02:47.400Plastic disrupts hormonal and endocrine systems.1.00
00:02:50.620After delivery, she stores her placenta in a plastic freezer bag.
00:02:54.680Plastic is the perfect creation because it never dies.0.99
00:02:58.020Our daughter sucks on a plastic pacifier.0.82
00:03:00.740Whales, plankton, shrimp, and birds confuse plastic for food.
00:03:04.220The plastic pump whirs, breast milk drips into a plastic bottle.
00:03:09.020Plastic keeps food, water, and medicine fresh.
00:03:11.980Yet how empty plastic must feel to be birthed, used, and then disposed by us.
00:07:45.520Definitely becoming a new father five years ago,
00:07:48.880which coincided with many of these poems in the book,
00:07:53.260really changed my whole life and perspective.
00:07:56.620And as you mentioned, being a parent, I wanted what most other parents want,
00:08:01.580is to love their children, to provide them with food and a safe home, and to give them a good
00:08:07.780education and a happy life. But parenting in the Anthropocene, as you put it, all those things
00:08:13.900become very difficult in the sense that our food systems are becoming more and more toxic. With
00:08:20.520climate change, the weather is becoming much more extreme, unpredictable, and dangerous,
00:08:25.500and becoming much more of, seems like an impossibility to give our children this safe habitat, as the poem puts it.
00:08:35.040And of course, here in the Pacific, we, you know, struggle with some unique circumstances,
00:08:39.640one of which is, of course, the endangerment and extinction of our native birds and native ecologies.
00:08:47.720And so in that particular poem, I'm thinking, you know, how am I going to teach my daughter about the fact that
00:08:54.300Her homeland of Hawaii and Guam are both places where bird populations have dramatically declined.
00:09:02.860And so, you know, in that poem, it includes a lot of information about what she might learn about bird decline.
00:09:10.540But also my own desire to convince her that, as the poem says, extinction is not the end, but just a migration to the last safe habitat on Earth.
00:09:21.260So my own anxieties about telling her the hard truth of the situation and trying to instead instill a different kind of imagination while she is still young and perhaps she might believe in the possibility that extinction is indeed not the end.
00:09:40.960I feel very ambivalent as a parent, as an Indigenous father, as father to two Indigenous girls who will face other dangers as girls as well.
00:09:54.000And so, you know, that poem and a lot of my poems are really trying to confront that anxiety of being a parent in the Anthropocene, being an Indigenous parent, being a parent in the Pacific.
00:10:05.680And so I'm very fearful for what the future holds, but as you put it as well, I want to instill a sense of care and love and respect to other species, to more than human species, but also to the environment, and to try to ground that perspective within our own Pacific Islander beliefs about our connection and kinship with the environment.
00:10:33.960Oh, Craig, thank you so much for sharing the vulnerabilities of your anxiety and just that intimacy of parenting. I think that probably so many folks feel that way or feel something similar unconsciously or consciously and you voicing that, especially in your specific situation, being indigenous, being in the Pacific Islands.
00:10:59.760it feels really important for us to hear that. And I'm sure a lot of folks are really resonating
00:11:05.560with that. And you're putting words to feelings that they may not be able to articulate. So
00:11:11.460thank you for sharing that with us. And we are holding this conversation amidst the coronavirus
00:11:18.680outbreak. And I know that each of us hold a multitude of feelings on this topic. And so it
00:11:25.100feels impossible to not mention it or to have a conversation without assuming that the feelings
00:11:30.640awakened by this pandemic are not guiding us in some way. And I think many of us are awakened to
00:11:36.800the necessity of slowing down, both in the safety it affords us and our loved ones, but also the
00:11:43.340graciousness that is afforded to the earth when we slow down. Yet even amidst this time of pause,
00:11:49.620many of us feel the deep ramifications of slowing down within a capitalist system.
00:11:55.100which is to say that I think many of us are feeling a great degree of discomfort
00:11:59.460because this moment of pause is in conflict with the tightened grips of late-stage capitalism.
00:12:06.500So as an artist and writer and educator, I'm wondering if you could speak to these tensions.
00:12:12.780How will this period require a great deal of creativity from us
00:12:16.420when it comes to our production and consumption?
00:12:21.260Over here in Hawaii, we are sheltering in place. The public schools have been canceled. I'm a university professor. My classes have moved online. My students are back home with their parents or they have traveled out of state to return to their own home states.
00:12:40.480they're just starting testing here in earnest and so the number of positive cases are going up
00:12:48.140exponentially the health care system is stressed and will soon likely be overwhelmed here as in
00:12:54.060other places i'm thankful that i'm still receiving a paycheck unlike many others i'm able to
00:13:02.100continue to provide food and medicine for my family and my kids and my my daughter is also
00:13:08.240immunocompromised. So I'm feeling very fearful and protective at this moment. As you mentioned,
00:13:14.580at the same time, it is nice to see the levels of carbon emissions go down throughout the world.
00:13:19.940It's nice to see, as folks have mentioned, for the earth to take a breath and to pause
00:13:26.080and to see many wild animals be able to come into the cities and to feel safe in some ways
00:13:33.780without all the human cars or population and I'm also feeling that slow down in my own life where
00:13:40.580I don't have to drive to work. I've only been out twice over the last two weeks just to the grocery
00:13:46.660store and we're cooking more at home. I have more time with with my wife and kids and so at a time
00:13:55.460where I feel deeply fearful I've also felt a strange kind of peace being at home being able
00:14:02.660to shelter in place. And of course, feeling almost a guilty sense of a privilege as well,
00:14:09.420that I do feel so safe in a way, despite everything that's going on. Within a larger
00:14:16.080moment, I do hope that this pandemic will be a moment of transition and a moment of change,
00:14:23.520that we will question the neoliberal capitalist world that we live in and how it's wreaked havoc
00:14:31.120on the environment, on other species, on our own physical and mental health, that we will
00:14:37.700acknowledge the precarity that so many lives and so many people are in right now, thinking about
00:14:44.460those who are houseless or those who are incarcerated, who are now unemployed, those
00:14:51.480who have underlying health conditions, the elderly, that we do need to expand our web of care and to
00:14:58.720really change all these capitalist systems that are just destroying our lives and destroying the
00:15:05.400earth. And so I do pray that everyone who is impacted will recover and will stay safe. And I
00:15:14.380hope that as it progresses and as we move further into this year, that we will make these deep
00:15:21.320changes to our society. And, you know, as an artist, poet, and educator, I feel like part of my job
00:17:45.700to hold her above rough waves. Daddy's here. Daddy's. Will drowning be the last lullaby
00:17:54.380of the sea? Or will we carry each other towards the horizon of care?
00:18:08.140Now, I'd like to transition to a conversation on your homeland, Guahan. In your writing,
00:18:15.200you often recount the invisibility of Guahan, both in the abstract and the physical in terms
00:18:22.220of its incredibly layered history under Spanish, US, and Japanese rule. So I'm wondering if you
00:18:28.540could share how this history and Guahan's status as an unincorporated territory shapes your writing,
00:18:35.680work, and environmental activism. Thank you. You know, yes, so I grew up on Guahan or Guam,
00:18:41.900born there and lived there till I was 15 years old. And then my parents decided to migrate
00:18:48.760to California, which is where I finished high school and college. And so when my family first
00:18:55.020migrated, it was a strange experience because no one in California knew where Guam was or what Guam
00:19:01.880was. And, you know, I have a vivid memory of the first day of my new high school in California,
00:19:07.860know, when I was a sophomore, the teacher asked where we were from. And when I said Guam, he had
00:19:12.880never heard of it. And so he pointed me to a large world map on the classroom wall to point it out to
00:19:21.300him. And like many maps, Guam wasn't actually on the map because it's such a tiny island. And,
00:19:28.360you know, I remember I had to say, you know, I'm from an invisible island that should be right
00:19:33.620here, but it's not. And I always carry that memory with me because I felt so invisible at that
00:19:40.100moment. And that kind of sparked my motivation to educate people about Guam's history and our
00:19:49.500indigenous Chamorro culture through poetry and through my writing. And so, you know, that was
00:19:55.300kind of what led me to try to make our island more visible to the world. And part of that is,
00:20:02.920is, of course, explaining the complexity of Guam as a so-called unincorporated territory.
00:20:08.500Most Americans don't know what that means, or even that the United States still has territories.
00:20:14.920And then to explain the complicated history of Guam first being a Spanish colony,
00:20:19.880starting in the 16th and 17th centuries, then becoming a U.S. colony after the Spanish-American
00:20:26.380War of 1898, being occupied by the Empire of Japan during World War II for three years,
00:20:33.260and then the U.S. military returning and once again, Guam becoming and remaining to this day
00:20:40.520a U.S. territory. So we are U.S. citizens. We learn English from school and from the American
00:20:48.040media, from American TV and movies. And then many of my people have also migrated to the States
00:20:55.520so that today actually, and quite sadly, there are more of us who live away from our home islands
00:21:02.560and actually still live on our home islands. And so I also write about that experience of
00:21:08.500not only being colonized and being from a small island, but also our experiences as migrants and
00:21:15.520adjusting to a new life within our own U.S. diaspora.
00:21:20.880In discussing colonization, I can't help but think about the function of language.
00:21:26.700To preface, under US rule, Chamorro was outlawed and English was mandated. Then under Japanese0.82
00:21:33.320rule, both English and Chamorro were outlawed in favor of Japanese. So I would love if you
00:21:39.380could speak to this history and the importance of reviving the Chamorro language in your own work
00:21:45.500as a guiding vessel for these precarious times?
00:21:49.200Yes, sadly, the history of language colonialism on Guam is a violent and tragic one.
00:21:55.460My grandparents, for example, when they were growing up in the new American schools,
00:22:01.300they were actually punished physically and mentally if they were caught speaking Chamorro in school.
00:22:08.580And even when the U.S. authorities were teaching the kids how to play baseball, for example,
00:22:14.520They outlawed speaking Chamorro on the baseball field. So even that became an English-only space.
00:22:22.680And so the consequence of this is that today, our indigenous language is classified as endangered.
00:22:30.580Many of our native speakers are over the age of 60. And sadly, many families, the language did
00:22:38.580not get passed down because we saw kind of English as the only way to succeed, whether it was in the
00:22:45.360school system or even to get a job. And so the situation is very dire. However, there are many
00:22:52.500Chamorro language revitalization activists and initiatives happening now so that hopefully in
00:23:00.140future generations, the language can come back to life throughout the islands and of course
00:23:05.840throughout the diaspora. In my own work, and I love how you described, you know, literature as
00:23:11.580a vessel or language as a vessel and thinking about how poetry, literature, even music can become
00:23:20.020that vessel of revitalization. And so even though my work is still predominantly in English,
00:23:26.760I try to include the Chamorro words that I know and that I am, of course, relearning as well
00:23:32.400into my writing to kind of honor our language and also create space for it in my own life.
00:23:38.520And so, you know, it's a long journey to revitalize a language, but I'm very hopeful that
00:23:45.100perhaps my children or even their children will be the generation that will bring it more fully
00:23:52.260back to life as we're seeing today, the seeds of the language being replanted and, you know,
00:23:57.200some of its blossoms showing up in our writing, our literature.
00:24:02.400I'm so happy to hear that. And I'm also thinking about how over a quarter of Guahan is solely
00:24:09.400occupied by military bases. The series of nuclear bombs dropped throughout the Marshall Islands and
00:24:15.360the military's lease of Kwajalein Atoll, where the US operates a multi-billion dollar base
00:24:22.120and will continue to do so through the year 2066. So yeah, I'd love if you could share a little bit
00:24:29.340about the implications of ongoing military presence in your work, and perhaps the parallels
00:24:35.480between the military and tourism when it comes to the extraction and desecration of land and
00:24:41.580culture throughout the Pacific. Yes, the history of language and cultural colonization in the
00:24:48.540Pacific is truly tragic. And when you put it in the larger context of militarization in the Pacific,
00:24:57.880that trauma is truly compounded. You know, as you mentioned, you know, nearly 30 percent of
00:25:04.980my home island is occupied by U.S. military bases. The history of nuclear testing and ongoing
00:25:12.500militarization in the Marshall Islands is just one of the deepest human tragedies of the 20th
00:25:19.900century. And of course, here in Hawaii, also about a quarter of the island's landmass is
00:25:26.720is militarized as well. Pearl Harbor and Indo-Pacific Command being stationed not far
00:25:33.220from where I currently live. And so this speaks to the long history of U.S. military interests
00:25:40.260in the Pacific, their desire to control not only the Pacific, but of course their interests in
00:25:47.420Asia. There are also bases, as you know, in Okinawa, South Korea, the Philippines. And so
00:25:54.960the u.s military footprint here is massive and it has caused so much environmental damage and i know
00:26:04.200you've had previous episodes on for the wilds you know speaking to this legacy and so it's hard to
00:26:12.100speak about because it is so personal and it's affected so many of my family members as well as
00:26:19.060our ancestral lands and waters, but it is truly the most destructive force on the planet and in
00:26:26.880human history. And so much of our lands and waters have been contaminated and polluted and not only,
00:26:34.080you know, and stolen as well to make these military bases. And then, of course, our islands are used
00:26:40.340then to launch bombs and warfare into places like Vietnam, for example. And so this has caused so0.53
00:26:49.620much damage. And it's even what is so terrible as well is that they have recruited so many of
00:26:56.840our people to fight in the U.S. military. And for example, my father was drafted into the U.S. Army
00:27:04.700to fight in Vietnam. I have so many uncles and cousins who have enlisted in the military and
00:27:10.200have fought in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Korea.
00:27:15.500And we have not only Chamorro people, but Hawaiians, Samoans, other Micronesians.
00:27:21.320We have the highest rates per capita of military enlistment because it is often the only opportunities
00:27:27.600that we have in our islands for employment or other kinds of training.
00:27:33.140And so not only are lands and waters militarized, but our people and our culture and our bodies
00:27:39.620have become militarized as well. And so this kind of militarization has seeped into every part
00:27:45.560of our lives as Pacific Islanders. And it's something that myself and many others
00:27:51.500have been involved with the demilitarization movement here, the movements to protect
00:27:57.600our islands from further military development. And it's a struggle. And we've suffered so many
00:28:06.520losses you know a lot of the environmental contamination has led them to health problems
00:28:12.360so we have really high rates of cancer from this contamination from fallout of nuclear testing
00:28:19.160and it's a tragic history but it's one that we live with we're entangled into and one that we
00:28:26.440are we are struggling against because it is such a destructive force you know and speaking of
00:28:33.240And climate change, of course, you know that the U.S. military is the largest single carbon
00:28:37.240emitter in the world. So that ties us not only being in the front lines of climate change,
00:28:42.620but connected to being on the front lines of U.S. militarization as well.
00:28:47.460When I was reading some of the statistics, I was seeing that Chamarrus enlist in the U.S.
00:28:52.660armed forces at some of the highest rates in the nation. During the Vietnam War,
00:28:57.900Guahan had one of the highest killed in action rates per capita. And then in 1980, the Department
00:29:04.500of Defense estimated that 5% of Guahan was in the military, which was 12 times the national average.
00:29:11.460And then there was other things I was reading about, just the dead arms of staghorn coral that
00:29:16.820are bleached and the typhoons, what you were talking about with climate change and the seasons
00:29:21.140getting drier and then the military runoff, just poisoning the water reservoirs that, like I said,
00:29:26.920are being exacerbated by the drying with climate change. I'm just looking through my notes right
00:29:31.920now and it's really serious. I was reading that residues of Agent Orange left from the Vietnam
00:29:37.980War and other toxic waste from the military bases are contaminating Gua Han. I don't want to say
00:29:47.280it's shocking because it's not because we have such a horrendous dominant culture, but the fact1.00
00:29:54.500that so many of us in the States have no idea the type of poisoning and desecration that Guahan
00:30:01.720has been facing for so many decades. And just how the militarism and the tourism are swing arms of
00:30:09.720the same destructionary path. I don't know if that's the way to say it, but it seems like
00:30:14.980they're both really detrimental. And if you did want to say anything else about tourism while
00:30:20.040we're still on this topic. I'd love to hear that. Yes. Thank you for making that connection again.
00:30:26.480Yeah. So basically Guam and even here in Hawaii, our two main industries are the military and
00:30:32.900tourism. And just as a lot of our people enlist in the military, we also work in the tourism
00:30:40.100industry, whether at the hotels or doing tours or working in retail at restaurants.
00:30:48.600And sadly, our islands are seen by the colonial powers as either only useful as a military base or as a tourist destination.
00:30:58.160And of course, both of these industries are very exploitative.
00:31:03.580Tourism is also ecologically damaging as well, both by the development of hotels and shopping
00:31:12.440malls and restaurants, which often result in the disturbance and unearthing of ancestral burial
00:31:18.660grounds. And of course, tourists themselves have a very high carbon footprint because they obviously
00:31:25.060fly into our islands, but the tourism industry, whether it's from rental cars or from buses,
00:31:31.480They cause a lot of environmental damage as well. Even if you think about something like the use of sunscreen by tourists, it has really impacted the coral reefs.
00:31:43.180And so these industries are connected as well in the sense that a lot of military personnel come to Hawaii or to Guam as part of their vacation or R&R as recreation.
00:31:56.520and you know so you often see tourists mixing with military personnel on the beaches and so
00:32:03.960that's a kind of vivid almost postcard image of the connection between tourism and militarism
00:32:09.640and how they both exploit our islands for various kinds of of capitalist endeavors whether that's
00:32:17.260war making or tourist making or paradise making if you will and so you know a lot of activists
00:32:23.500are trying to imagine different ways to envision our islands,
00:32:29.740not simply as a military base or a tourist site,
00:32:38.600that need to be protected from these capitalist industries
00:32:43.260and how we need to imagine more sustainable ways
00:32:47.180to build an economy, especially a circular economy,
00:32:51.500that treats the land and water with respect doesn't just see the land and water as you know
00:32:59.120exploitative commodities or as firing ranges or bombing ranges and so the tourism industry tries
00:33:07.200to create this image of paradise but it really just hides the crimes of empire that have been
00:33:15.120going on here in the pacific as you mentioned you know most people don't know that the exploitative
00:33:20.700history. And so I think to me, that's the power of literature and art and your podcast as well to
00:33:29.000expose these injustices and to amplify the voices that are advocating for environmental justice,
00:33:37.840for nuclear justice, for military justice. And so, you know, I hope our voices continue to be heard
00:33:44.840as we critique these industries. Me too, Craig. Yes, we must keep critiquing. And I think
00:33:53.180more and more people are listening and awakening in these really complex times. So I do think that
00:34:01.420we're getting through and staying on this topic in preparing for this conversation and listening
00:34:07.040to you now. Of course, I'm reminded of the many narratives that speak to the struggle for
00:34:11.800dominance over the Pacific, where strings of islands that were or are rendered invisible on
00:34:17.560geographic maps, like you were mentioning when you were talking about your school classroom.
00:34:24.280And they're just such strong focal points for global powers. For example, Guohan's deep water
00:34:29.820part and geographic location has made it one of the most strategic bases in the world.
00:34:35.660And so on one hand, I'm endlessly fascinated by the geopolitical context, but I also can't help but think about how this framing in its attempt to reveal injustice is incredibly limiting.
00:34:48.440So how do you broach these topics and Guahan's existence in a way that both critiques U.S. empire, but doesn't limit the experience of place to that of U.S. imperialism, especially given the importance of what recognition and visibility and the telling of history can do as an act of repair?
00:35:07.800that's a powerful question for me so much of my writing while it is about protest and critique
00:35:14.860it is also so much about honoring and celebration of my culture and my wife who's Hawaiian you know
00:35:23.300of her culture as well and honoring the place I live now and honoring you know all the peoples
00:35:30.000of the Pacific and you know I try to you know not only honor our cultures but to also kind of
00:35:37.140celebrate and highlight our resiliency, our survival, and the power in our struggle as well.
00:35:46.480And it's amazing to me, as we discuss all these traumas and devastations that our people here
00:35:53.860have experiences, and yet our language is still here. And our dances, our cultural practices,
00:36:02.140our arts are still blossoming. And to me, that is just a beautiful statement of cultural
00:36:11.280resiliency. And, you know, I write a lot about my family as well and thinking about, yes,
00:36:17.800there are all these historical colonial forces that have shaped our lives. But at the same time,
00:36:23.120we continue to have our own agency and to try to build the lives that we imagine and to imagine
00:36:30.900new worlds and sustainable futures. And so, you know, in my work, I also try to, you know,
00:36:38.140capture those feelings of strength and hope and change and transformation and being grounded in
00:36:46.920indigenous and Pacific Islander beliefs and practices. And to me that, you know, that really
00:36:54.680gets me through as well, because I so deeply believe that literature can inspire us, but it
00:36:59.960also empowers us, it dignifies us, it humanizes us in a way that has been denied by the colonial
00:37:08.420powers. And so to me, I think centering my poetry within our own belief systems, within our own
00:37:16.320genealogies and kinship networks, and within the sacredness of our lands and our waters,
00:37:23.140to me that's that's the kind of the heartbeat of the work that then leads to powerful critiques
00:37:30.420of geopolitics and of colonialism and nuclearism and all these other issues that we're dealing
00:37:37.120with and so you know to me that's that's the joy of the work and that's the heart of literature
00:37:42.640is really to exemplify our humanity and our survival beautifully said craig now as an
00:37:51.000activist, I know you advocate for the protection of land, water, and culture from the ongoing and
00:37:57.280coalescing threats of colonialism, militarism, and capitalism. One area that I'm hoping we can
00:38:03.020discuss is that of deep-sea mining, as it's incredibly pertinent to the Pacific but rarely
00:38:09.020discussed. With the push for green energy, companies are moving to the deep sea to mine
00:38:14.060cobalt and nickel, both of which are necessary for the production of lithium-ion batteries.
00:38:19.260Now, currently nickel and cobalt are mined on land, typically in the Democratic Republic of
00:38:26.200Congo, which houses over half of the world's cobalt. But an area of ocean located between
00:38:32.880Hawaii and Mexico, known as the Clarion-Clipperton Fracture Zone, is believed to hold six times more
00:38:41.580cobalt and three times more nickel than all known land-based areas. So I'm wondering if you can
00:38:47.840discuss this coalescing of capitalism and colonialism and the gravity of what it means
00:38:53.520to mine from the life-giving ocean? Well, thank you for bringing up this very
00:38:58.060important issue. Yes, deep sea mining is one of the most terrifying new extractive industries
00:39:06.320here in the Pacific. And looking at some of the mining equipment that they're designing
00:39:11.960and their plans to destroy the deep sea surface
00:39:16.460is truly something that I hope everyone becomes educated on
00:39:21.740because it has the potential not only to destroy the habitats
00:39:27.300of the deep sea creatures, but also to destroy the seafloor itself
00:39:32.840and so much of that complex ecology, which we barely understand.
00:39:36.800And so this is something that, you know, I know many, many Pacific activists are concerned about and are trying to resist and struggle against and, you know, throughout the Pacific and in the cultural sense, obviously, we consider the ocean as the source of all life, as Mother Ocean, as perhaps the most sacred being on this planet.
00:40:01.620and just the thought of doing this kind of violence to the deep sea is truly devastating.
00:40:11.780And so this is something we have to critique and we have to stop.
00:40:14.980In connection to green technologies, it is unfortunate that so much of what we consider
00:40:23.660the green economy is based on still extractive industries, still on the exploitation of the0.98
00:40:31.700so-called third world and the damage it's going to cause to countries in Africa or here in the
00:40:39.340Pacific, that to me, this is very problematic and I think forces us to really think more deeply
00:40:47.320about the green economy. And, you know, unfortunately, we see a lot of examples of
00:40:52.620greenwashing these new sustainable technologies. You know, at the same time, we see a kind of blue
00:40:59.420washing, you know, with deep sea mining in some ways, or in other kinds of blue technologies,
00:41:04.820like offshore wind or other kinds of wave energy, which sound great in principle, but sometimes they
00:41:12.300do have destructive qualities to them that we have to be mindful of. And so, you know, for me
00:41:18.840as an activist, it is also important that we continue to critique these industries that too
00:41:25.740often become neoliberal themselves, and they try to profit from the green or blue initiatives that
00:41:33.800we see happening. I'm so glad that you brought it up and that we'll see what happens. I know many
00:41:39.420people are struggling against it. Who knows what will happen to the funding of these industries
00:41:44.880after this pandemic. And so it seems like everything is changing, but everything is
00:41:51.980still under threat. And so as activists, and even as artisan writers, we need to
00:41:58.240remain vigilant about protecting our sacred spaces.
00:42:01.540Mm-hmm. Yes, I absolutely agree. And I just wanted to mention a few other things around this deep sea mining, which is something that I'm just learning about.
00:42:13.100But one pressing matter is that draft exploitation regulations for deep sea mining in areas beyond national jurisdiction are currently being negotiated by the International Seabed Authority, which is an independent organization established by the United Nations that regulates all mining activity on the seafloor.
00:42:31.620So just so folks can know how regulations may be set up or not be regulated very well.
00:42:38.820And the other thing that I was reading is that to remove the metal from hydrothermal vent or an underwater mountain, they'll have to shatter rock in a manner similar to land-based extraction.
00:42:50.220And nodules are isolated chunks of rock on the seabed that typically range from the size of a golf ball to that of a grapefruit so they can be lifted from the sediment with relative ease.
00:43:01.620And there's a lot of other information out there. I just wanted to mention a few things because I
00:43:05.680could imagine that it's a new area of study for many people as it's getting up and going. And
00:43:11.760it's something that I think we all really need to watch for. And I just really can't help but
00:43:17.840really think about the hubris of deep sea mining, similar to that of space colonization. It's not
00:43:24.840only that we know so little about the short and long-term environmental impacts of deep sea
00:43:29.580mining, but so little about the landscape of the seabed itself, like you were mentioning.
00:43:34.820You know, a place which is not barren, but teeming with mountains and canyons,
00:43:39.700hot springs, giant clams, 10 feet long tube worms, and complex ecosystems that have taken
00:43:46.760millions of years to grow in a space of complete darkness. But currently, the batteries for an
00:43:52.960electric car require 187 pounds of copper, 123 pounds of nickel, and 15 pounds each of manganese
00:44:02.440and cobalt. Manganese. So if we want just 1 billion electric cars, this would require more
00:44:09.820metal than all current known land-based supplies, meaning that deep sea mining would be imminent in
00:44:16.940going forward with green energy. But at the same time, leaders across the Pacific have asked for
00:44:22.740a 10-year moratorium on seabed mining from 2020 to 2030 to allow research on the impacts of mining.
00:44:30.240So in my mind, this highlights the violence of green energy and the detriment that the
00:44:36.260blue continent will experience. In the past months, we've seen a global slowing of industry
00:44:41.280and production at a mass scale. And I'm wondering what you might say about our approach to green
00:44:47.580energy and how it should also be supplemented by this same sort of scaling down.
00:44:54.100Well, yes, I agree 100% with what you said. I really loved your vivid description of
00:45:00.180the biodiversity in the ocean. And I think, as you point out, it's so important
00:45:06.480that we critique green technology, blue technologies, especially because they seem to be
00:45:14.860premised on the capitalist idea of endless growth, like making a billion electric cars.
00:45:22.280And I feel like your connection in terms of, you know, slowing down is so important because
00:45:28.440I feel like that's exactly what needs to happen. We can't kind of combat climate change
00:45:35.160by simply applying the same principles of growth to these green technologies. But instead,
00:45:42.960we need to really seriously consider degrowth and different visions of a circular economy and
00:45:50.060of sustainable futures. And we really do need to listen more to the wisdom of indigenous peoples,
00:45:57.460especially in terms of developing an ecological consciousness and a way to live more sustainably
00:46:04.940with the natural environment and with our more than human species. And I feel like by doing so,
00:46:10.720we can slow down, we can degrowth, we can, you know, value the world differently than capitalist
00:46:19.300values. And, you know, we need to respect the limits of the earth. And we need to not base so
00:46:27.080much on so much of our motives on the profit motive. And so that is going to be, I think,
00:46:34.200the struggle of this century and I know so much of the damage caused is already baked in and we're
00:46:41.220going to have to live through difficult times but I think to kind of circle back to the beginning of
00:46:46.140of this conversation that it becomes a moment of of transformation and of deep reflection
00:46:52.660and to think about our interrelationship to all things and to each other and and how we can really
00:47:02.660We foster ethics of care and ethics of love.
00:47:07.480And there are so many people like, you know, like yourself who are educating us that we