00:10:09.420There's a demand for the recognition of indigenous rights and self-determination.
00:10:13.180But what are those things about? What is it really coming down to when you hear these demands? For me, the way I see it is that these are demands for consent. These are demands for control and self-determination of what happens to our lands, our air, and most importantly, or I guess just as important, our bodies.
00:10:33.320and it's a demand for us to allow us and give us indigenous peoples that space to continue our
00:10:44.000practice of living in balance with our ecosystems as best as we can be and our identities and how
00:10:51.580we navigate the identities of masculinity and femininity is a core component of that
00:10:56.560this society the mainstream society that we battle against does exactly what you what the
00:11:02.220quote talks about is it severes us it makes us decide which line which side of the line do we
00:11:07.640want to do you want to stand on and you have to make a hard decision between that binary
00:11:12.280and a lot of communities are saying f that no we we will decide we decide what is the metrics of
00:11:20.960our identity as human beings and it's on our terms to hell with your binary codes like we will we we
00:11:28.300will take control of and take power of that i really there's so many things on my mind about
00:11:33.600this i was in a group discussion some years ago it was like a plan a panel at this large gathering
00:11:41.020called bioneers down in the in the san francisco bay area and it was about toxic masculinity and0.97
00:11:47.060it was facilitated the discussion was facilitated by eve ensler the playwright for the vagina
00:11:52.100the monologues and we were talking about there was a question about who suffers from toxic
00:12:00.980masculinity and and imbalanced patriarchy you know for some folks the immediate response is well it's
00:12:07.720you know those that there are those identified as female you know folks women and children
00:12:13.440is as the primary victims if you could say but in in the group discussion what we kind of got
00:12:21.340came to is like no we all suffer we are all victims of it and and something that we we always
00:12:29.240that's really painful as men to admit is that in some ways we suffer the greatest of all because
00:12:38.280we are what we are doing as we continue that path of saying this is what a man means a man means to
00:12:44.340be violent a man means to be uh domineering a man means this this and that all these things that are
00:12:50.240in line with toxic masculinity is that we are completely and utterly cutting off our ability
00:12:57.620to be whole humans and connect with our feminine our femininity you know we are completely closing
00:13:05.220ourselves off from being the complete human beings that we were born and created to be
00:13:09.840when we are hurt we're we're taught not to cry when we are angry or frustrated or scared or
00:13:18.460terrified we are taught as men that we only have a limited set of tools in which to respond and
00:13:24.980oftentimes that those tools are self-destructive or destructive to those around us and that we
00:13:32.620as human beings have been gifted a wider range of other tools that are seen quote-unquote on
00:13:36.900as as the feminine side of it that can be regenerative and healing and restorative
00:13:42.180and yet every one of us has access to all of these so that's like when i do the work that i do when i
00:13:50.520talk about the you know the issue of being more accountable as men when i talk about um us
00:13:55.660smashing the patriarchy my target audience is fellow men in in saying look like you are
00:14:06.200we're destroying ourselves we are less than because we choose to promote this system
00:14:14.280that is uh that is destroying us gosh i resonated so much with what you just said and
00:14:25.100the confusion around what it is to even be a quote man or um you know who are the people
00:14:35.080that are suffering and of course it's women and children and um and and men and non-binary people
00:14:43.200everybody suffers the world suffers it's not we're all victims to it and so i'm i have a lot of
00:14:50.520thoughts in my head right now one i'm thinking about how male fragility plays a huge role
00:14:56.360in understanding how peril our relationships are you know women and non-binary people
00:15:02.480and children have had to adjust and adopt and navigate around male fragility and toxic
00:15:11.340masculinity, which I feel like go hand in hand, without many men even really ever having
00:15:17.320to interrogate it themselves, which then raises this question of how entitlement fits into
00:15:22.320the conversation, the entitlement that many men, especially white men, are born with or
00:15:28.000born into, conditioned to. And then at the same time, I think I'm finding that more and more men
00:15:33.640are awakening to feelings of uncertainty, like you were speaking of, that they themselves are
00:15:39.800not even sure what it means to be a man in these current troubled times. So I wonder when it comes
00:15:49.580to re-envisioning masculinity a healthy masculinity what does that look like to you
00:15:57.380i think first and foremost it's a great question great question by the way i think that first and
00:16:04.160foremost it becomes a major part of it is accountability it's accountability and emotional
00:16:10.300intelligence like it is a matter of us as as as individuals to be accountable for how we engage
00:16:20.040and interact with our relatives on this planet and and in order to do so that we have to raise
00:16:25.220our emotional intelligence about ourselves we are not challenged as men in this current society
00:16:31.740mainstream society does not challenge men to understand why they're doing the things that
00:16:37.100they do it does not challenge men to ask themselves who are they accountable to it does
00:16:44.480not challenge men to be aware of how they are contributing to the suffering or the inconvenience
00:16:52.180or the distraction of other folks it does not the mainstream society does not challenge us
00:16:56.800whatsoever in those regards and so what we have to do is respond to that and challenge ourselves
00:17:01.300to question all those things and there's something about it is like i was talking to a couple of
00:17:07.940folks about this there's a there's an interesting dynamic here if i go in and this is all based off
00:17:15.240of experience if i go and publicize i'm going to give a talk about toxic masculinity in minneapolis
00:17:21.220minnesota and publicize and put flyers all around guaranteed or it's a good assumption that the vast
00:17:29.080majority of the people that will come to that talk will be women or women identified. And the1.00
00:17:35.560question it asks is why? Why is that? And it just speaks to this terrible truth that to exist in
00:17:46.680this society, to live in this society, women's safety and health is dependent on them knowing
00:17:54.120men better than men know themselves you have to know how a man thinks you have to know how a man
00:18:01.080what motivates a man you have to know about the the dangers a man poses to your well-being
00:18:06.620you have to know them more than they know themselves in order to ensure your safety in
00:18:10.940this world and so there there's a vested interest to know about that and that's why you i feel like
00:18:17.020you often see that men don't have that interest there's not that we're not required to know
00:18:21.760ourselves because our safety is not dependent on our identity and the parallel there is the same
00:18:28.200as community like there's a there's a distinct parallel to that to and i might go off topic here
00:18:33.240to communities of color right we always talk about like communities of color know the law
00:18:38.200better than sometimes the law itself you know our our black relatives black folks out there
00:18:43.660know the law or know the police procedure sometimes better than other folks because our
00:18:49.960lives depend on it in very in many cases to know it better as people of color we need we need to
00:18:55.700know white folks more than white folks know themselves because our very lives and survival
00:19:00.700depends on it and the same can be said about the dynamics between men and women and that's
00:19:07.880terrifying that's a terrifying truth and i think that as men more men have to be accountable to
00:19:15.300that and really understand that and so when it when we talk about what does healthy masculinity
00:19:20.700look like it comes really the first like the first steps towards that is developing emotional
00:19:25.220intelligence to interrogate oneself's behavior uh in relationships yeah and and i think there's
00:19:33.000a whole other range of things i could add to it but i i'll stop there for the moment wow that's so
00:19:39.740deep to think that non-identifying men or women non-binary people children have to know men better
00:19:51.980than men know themselves to stay safe and how that is so parallel to communities of color
00:19:59.260and white people I mean that is a really really deep insight and I'm so appreciative of that and
00:20:04.580yeah as we get deeper into this conversation I'd love to hear what else comes up for you around
00:20:09.220healthy masculinity. And, you know, when I think about toxic masculinity, it's really so much more
00:20:15.540than just immediate violence or abuse or assault in the private sphere. You know, it's ultimately
00:20:21.640about power and control. And so while this thought is, of course, nothing new, it would feel amiss to
00:20:29.040not discuss the patriarchal assaults on earth as being akin to the violence perpetuated against
00:20:35.400women. So I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on the convergences between these
00:20:41.660assaults as someone who is trying to unravel toxic masculinity and who is also a part of
00:20:48.120a campaign that is completely against the non-consensual extraction of resources from
00:20:53.500earth. Yeah. My good sister, Candy White, who is from the three affiliated tribes in North Dakota,
00:21:31.200extractive economy and capitalism and that that we as the children experience that trauma
00:21:39.380in very distinct ways as a result and there's a distinct relationship between the sexual violence
00:21:47.600that we see perpetrated upon mother earth and the sexual violence we see in our communities
00:21:50.920especially those communities so they're located at these zones of extraction of resource extraction
00:21:56.360And the stories, there's so many stories out there that are parallel, that are just exact mirrors of each other, whether they're in the Amazon or they're in the Arctic or you're in North Dakota or you're in California.
00:22:11.460It just shows you that this entire system is predicated upon the exploitation and the violence against communities of color for the accumulation of wealth or capitalism.
00:22:28.920and it's no wonder that it's just i guess it's it's clear as day like there's no question why
00:22:37.320in places like the bakken oil fields in north dakota where it's the current economic boom for
00:22:43.260the fracking industry in the united states is also one of the places of highest instances of
00:22:48.520sexual violence in the country like they go hand in hand so the call into question toxic masculinity
00:22:55.360to call in question our relationship to gender identities is also to call in question the current
00:23:02.020economic system overall is to call into question the system that perpetuates sexual violence and
00:23:09.840gender violence all across the board and so it is truly the struggle to to dismantle and smash
00:23:18.680the patriarchy is a decolonial approach we're talking about decolonization that is what this
00:23:26.580is really coming down to indigenous people shine your light we are equal
00:23:34.140i remember the days when our prayers were illegal1.00
00:23:40.220I remember the days when being Indian was lethal1.00
00:23:45.800Yeah, we had a rough past, but get ready for the sequel1.00
00:23:51.920Get ready for the glorious comeback of our people
00:32:07.840and it's hard work but it's really needs to happen because like you said that as you were
00:32:14.880talking about like toxic masculinity is a symptom of a greater systemic disorder
00:32:23.260that is killing all of us that toxic masculinity is merely a pillar that is holding up
00:32:31.920this greater system of white supremacy and capitalism that is is embedded itself in all
00:32:38.900corners of this planet and that in order for us to truly respond to that in order for us to truly
00:32:45.480build the world that we are all talking about we have to really recognize that those pillars and
00:32:51.960dismantle them as much as possible and i say that with the extra charge for folks listening for
00:32:58.580relatives are listening out there is if you want to build a better world you cannot only just talk
00:33:05.640about toxic masculinity you have to talk about white supremacy in the same conversation you have
00:33:10.360to talk about southern colonialism in the same conversation because they are all supporting each
00:33:17.140other they're all linked together they're all working together to drive this planet over the
00:33:23.080cliff even faster. My good sister, a good friend of mine, J.B. Gay, recently wrote about blood
00:33:35.160memory, this concept of blood memory. I know my friend Candy, who I mentioned before, she also
00:33:41.000speaks about it a lot, that we carry the blood memory of our ancestors before us, but we also
00:33:46.900carried the trauma of that before us that came before and so we have we have the dual hardship
00:33:55.780of not only dealing with our own trauma within our lifetimes but also dealing with the trauma
00:33:59.340of our communities over a series of generations and to to spin it in a more in a in a light-hearted
00:34:08.380direction that also means that we have not only our experience our own life's experiences to
00:34:13.920respond to that, our experiences of agency and activism to respond to that. We also have
00:34:20.380generations upon generations of positive energy and experience to respond to those as well.
00:34:32.000These intergenerational wounds run really deep and the gender wounds run incredibly deep.
00:34:39.800And I'm thinking about what you said at the intersection of white supremacy and toxic masculinity and settler colonialism and the weaving of those, I don't even know what to call them right now, but these gender wounds, they're running really deep.
00:34:59.500And I think, you know, today's domestic violence impacts one third of all women globally.
00:35:04.620And it's the leading cause for injury and death between women, 15 to 54.
00:35:09.860And I think at this point, one could argue that toxic masculinity is a sort of universal
00:35:16.840inheritance, regardless of socioeconomic status or race or religion.
00:35:23.380So I just wonder about these tendencies, because it would appear that so many of us
00:35:29.420have adopted these behaviors as an innate human quality and scoffed at those who have challenged
00:35:34.480them. So I'm wondering what are the root origins of this behavior in your opinion? And then a
00:35:43.360second question on that is, is there an argument to be made that cultures that possess certain
00:35:49.880spiritual and environmental ethics were less susceptible to perversions of power, violence,
00:35:54.900and control oh those are like some uh multi-syllable words they're kind of over my head
00:36:03.340no i it's great questions i i think i don't know um well we could just take the at first like
00:36:12.580what do you think the root origins of this behavior is well i you know i think that i i as
00:36:19.500an indigenous person as an indigenous man coming from a community that has been fighting southern
00:36:26.360colonialism for hundreds of years now cannot ignore the fact that that the people that brought
00:36:33.660those colonial projects into on those lands had bibles in their hands and that one of the you
00:36:41.800know motivations for them was the fact that they had a worldview that dictated for them to go out
00:36:49.720and to subdue the land to subdue the life on this planet and to spread that word i'm saying that i
00:36:58.200know that might be a charged statement but that's the reality i really think that you can't have
00:37:06.080a sustained accumulation of wealth without continued forms of extraction in the eyes of
00:37:14.460this current economic system in order to do that you have to accumulate more resources which more0.89
00:37:20.980land in order to do that you have to clear the people from that land or subjugate them to be0.98
00:37:26.740used for the purpose of resource extraction so slavery or you just kill them and then in order
00:37:33.980to do that you have to create some form of a militaristic approach in order to subjugate them0.95
00:37:39.880or to keep them in line or to kill them and hunt them and go to war with them and so every level
00:37:46.480of the game is about dominance every level of the game is about a hyper masculine approach to0.96
00:37:53.000dominate for the purpose of capitalism for the purpose of the accumulation of wealth and and so
00:38:02.200i think that that idea the concept of dominance in in our purpose on this planet has a major part
00:38:08.560to play in what we're seeing right now what is our relationship to the land are we here
00:38:17.560as the what's that word what's the word um top of the food chain what's that uh like hierarchy or
00:38:25.920the apex yeah you know yeah are we the apex predator like we have i firmly believe we have
00:38:33.320a conscious choice to say yes or no to a certain extent when it comes down to us deciding what are
00:38:38.500the dictates of our society we are the masters of all so therefore we have the right to dominate all
00:38:44.260is what is currently in charge and there are countless communities indigenous and land-based
00:38:52.140non-indigenous communities who are trying to say otherwise who are trying to advocate for a
00:38:56.660different approach a bit of a long-winded response to it but i really think that some of that comes
00:39:02.120down to it and i i just yeah no i mean it wasn't i i think it's it needed a long-winded response
00:39:10.000of anything it's a really complex question because it's it's really asking about the origins of our
00:39:17.700humanity of our behaviors? Where are some of these behaviors coming from? Where do they stem
00:39:26.920from? And it's a really challenging question because it has to take into account so much of
00:39:33.700history and the origins of that. So definitely it wasn't too long-winded at all. But I'm thinking
00:39:39.580about something that you had mentioned a couple responses ago around, you know, you were saying
00:39:46.180that men have been really wounded and not that they're victims and it's not that it's let's have
00:39:52.560a pity party for men but nonetheless men are hurting and I really I really feel that and
00:40:00.040and I think there is a lot to unpack in that and so you know I'd like to address the role of men
00:40:07.280in creating networks of accountability and support systems because on one hand men absolutely need to
00:40:13.680be held accountable for the harm they either willingly or ignorantly cause. And, you know,
00:40:18.740you've gone on to write that the verbalization of crimes actually functions as a form of healing
00:40:25.700and justice for both victims and communities. But at the same time, if that is the extent of
00:40:31.760our actions, then this cycle will just continue into future generations because it's not enough
00:40:37.460to simply just shame a person into non-existence in fact i feel like often enough this shame
00:40:45.020actually empowers many men to just cling even tighter to the last remaining vestiges
00:40:50.680of intense patriarchy especially during a time when call-out culture and the act of you know
00:40:56.920canceling is so unbridled so you know it's a it's a you know i'm really in this question but
00:41:04.240I guess I'd like to ask you to talk about both the role of men holding other men accountable
00:41:10.740and the importance of regenerative justice and forgiveness if we want to truly heal our
00:41:17.620communities. Yeah. It's a needed question. I mean, that's the immediate follow-up. It's a
00:41:24.720question that leads us down the path of what are we trying to build, right? What's the world that
00:41:28.660we want to see to start my my response i first and foremost i have to recognize fully recognize
00:41:34.700the incredible amount of labor and tremendous work that has been led by women lgbti folks
00:41:42.740or queer relatives trans relatives to hold men accountable for their toxicity for their patriarchy0.98
00:41:48.480and for the promotion the perpetuation of dysfunction in our society and it's women0.75
00:41:55.700queer relatives trans relatives who are who are leading this movement and what what i'm really0.58
00:42:01.540like what me and a number of other uh folks are calling for and demanding is like it's time for
00:42:07.460us to really as men and those identify as men to step up to the plate to really really step up to
00:42:14.120a greater degree to hold ourselves accountable and to really be a part of this movement to to
00:42:19.100heal our communities our societies so with that being said okay let's talk about i guess we i want
00:42:26.540to talk about like what does it mean for on the ground what does this actually look like on the
00:42:30.620ground in my community i'm from a small dakota community in southwest minnesota we we have
00:42:38.720roughly 1500 citizens that live there that are enrolled with our with our tribal nation and
00:42:45.580And about 700, 800 of them live in a small community there,
00:49:51.420It's a timely and pertinent question for sure.
00:49:54.180well i i feel like honestly the one one way to answer that is is something that i try to do
00:50:02.120in my own life is for those that have families that have kids is like i'm trying to embody
00:50:09.160as much as i can what i want to see for my son like i want i'm trying to embody
00:50:14.660the sacred masculine as much as possible for my son so that he can break some of these cycles
00:50:20.480right like it's crazy because i was sitting there just a couple days ago like three days ago
00:50:25.720i was sitting with my son my son is nine years old and i said you know what son my i'm rubbing
00:50:32.980my my hands running my hands through his hair and i just gave him a kiss on the cheek and i said
00:50:37.460you know what's crazy son i said there are a lot of boys out there whose dads never say i love you
00:50:46.860and who will never who don't kiss them on the cheek and he looked at me and he was like what
00:50:53.820really he's like why and I was like just because that's the way those dads were taught to be like
00:51:02.260they were taught to not say I love you they were taught not to show love and affection and my son
00:51:10.800said that's so sad he was like they don't get to hug their dad they don't get to hug and snuggle
00:51:17.620and i said no and for him what i made me laugh and smile is that the fact that he responded that
00:51:25.640way like he could not comprehend that shows me like hey i'm doing something good it's hard for
00:51:30.500him to comprehend a world where where a dad does not say i love you and does not give you hugs and
00:51:35.600does not show affection and so it just it reinforces like hey i'm trying i'm i think i'm
00:51:41.860doing good i think i'm doing good here and that's a charge for each and every one of us who have
00:51:47.360kids out there who are nieces or who have nephews to practice that to encourage them to be
00:51:53.160completely human to allow them to be human i do the same thing there's a couple of us men that we
00:52:00.980We are not afraid. We encourage ourselves actually to say I love you to other men of our age as signs of affection, whether it's your cousins or your brothers or your friends, your bros, say, hey, I love you, man. Using the power of language to combat our education as men is absolutely key.
00:52:17.000so that i think is one tremendous step is to disrupt the status quo in our daily lives about
00:52:27.480what it means to be a man is absolutely essential to continue to challenge ourselves i i'm totally
00:52:34.940about it like continue to challenge men who are mansplaining to continue men men who are taking
00:52:40.600up too much of the space who are sucking up all the air in the room to continue to challenge those
00:52:44.480is absolutely essential but on the flip side to also understand that that we as men are using
00:52:52.920the only language that we've been taught and it's a stunted language is an inadequate language
00:52:59.000it is a language devoid of some of the most critical aspects of being a complete human
00:53:05.940and so we are disabled to a certain extent there's an issue of disability here
00:53:39.860And I loved hearing about that intimate moment with your son and the snuggles and just how you were and so lovingly explaining to him how other boys and fathers don't get that don't don't have that connection.
00:53:58.920And that was really, really beautiful to share that with us. Thank you. And and thank you for all of this, Dallas.
00:54:03.980You know, like I said, I've had such the joy of spending time with you and you work in so many different ways in the world.
00:54:13.720And I know probably many of the listeners know that and know you are a tireless organizer for indigenous sovereignty and issues surrounding climate change and extreme resource extraction and protection of land and earth.
00:54:30.400and to know that you also do this work with toxic masculinity and connecting the dots of toxic
00:54:38.720masculinity and unhealthy patriarchy and white supremacy and settler colonialism and resource
00:54:44.160extraction. I mean, wow, you are so comprehensive in your understanding. And then in the way that
00:54:52.500you implement your understanding in, you know, in communities, in the way you communicate
00:54:57.240with people. I'm just so grateful for you. And I'm so grateful that you have given so much of
00:55:04.780yourself to be such a deeply thoughtful and caring and connected person. So I'm giving you a huge hug
00:55:16.120through this computer technological connection we're having right now. And thank you so much,
00:55:22.340for all this thank you so much and i i have a hard time dealing with any type of praise whatsoever
00:55:28.920but i appreciate your words and much love and positive energy to all those listeners for one
00:55:37.180sticking through for this interview and listening to the things that were shared here but also for
00:55:42.940your efforts to smash the patriarchy and to build a better world like i really believe in in the
00:55:50.400power of the collective it's not individuals it's not elected leaders it's not uh individual people
00:55:56.560that create tremendous moments of change it is mass movements that create that change and uh
00:56:02.600i really firmly believe that we are we are capable of doing it and achieving it so
00:56:08.380thank you for this podcast for being a part of that movement thank you for as as an interviewer