For The Wild - ELSA SEBASTIAN on Loving the Last Stands of the Tongass ⧸141

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00:00:27.140 Hey for the wild community, Ayana here.

00:00:30.100 In this week's episode, we'll be speaking with activist Elsa Sebastian from Last Stands

00:00:34.480 about the current threats facing the Tongass National Forest in southeast Alaska.

00:00:39.940 Since we spoke, there have been a few key updates that I'd like to share before we begin.

00:00:44.480 One of the largest threats at this time is Trump's plan to rescind the roadless rule

00:00:48.680 in the Tongass and open 9.2 million acres of protected land back up to logging and resource

00:00:55.200 extraction. Just yesterday, the Forest Service announced that on Friday, October 18th, they will

00:01:01.880 finally publish the draft environmental impact statement for the roadless rule exemption being

00:01:06.940 proposed. The release will open a 60-day period for public review and comment, and for those of

00:01:13.580 us who are U.S. citizens, we have the right and responsibility to weigh in on this important

00:01:18.740 decision that will determine the future of the Tongass, one of the most precious living libraries

00:01:24.040 left on this earth. We'll share more at the end of this episode, so stay tuned, and in the meantime,

00:01:29.920 visit our website at forthewild.world and learn how you can make a public comment.

00:01:35.000 We will also continue to share updates and ways that you can take action on the podcast

00:01:38.980 and across our social media channels. Now on to the show.

00:01:47.100 It is incredibly important that people engage with this comment process, especially as we're

00:01:52.520 seeing the Trump administration work to try to weaken this type of process. Today we are speaking

00:01:59.860 with Elsa Sebastian. Elsa grew up in the fishing village of Point Baker on northern Prince of Wales

00:02:05.620 Island. For most of her 20s, Elsa captained a commercial salmon troller fishing the wild

00:02:11.100 coastline of southeast Alaska. These days, Elsa deckhands on a drift gill netter in Bristol Bay

00:02:16.880 and spends her winters working in conservation, most recently as executive director of Lynn

00:02:22.380 Canal Conservation. Elsa loves wildlife and spent several years working with Alaska Whale Foundation

00:02:28.680 to establish a remote field station on Baranoff Island, now serving as chair of the Alaska Whale

00:02:33.860 Foundation Board of Directors. Elsa founded the Last Stands Project in 2017 to learn more about

00:02:40.480 what remains of the world's largest coastal temperate rainforest, the Tongass. Since founding

00:02:45.720 the project, she's bushwhacked and beachwalked through hundreds of miles of forest and coastline

00:02:50.480 and sail to threatened last stand of old growth on her home island of Prince of Wales.

00:02:56.000 Elsa is a 100-ton licensed captain and adventures from a 38-foot catch sailboat, the Murelit.

00:03:03.820 Elsa, this is so wonderful to speak with you today.

00:03:06.900 I just admire you so much and really hold you in my heart often.

00:03:12.320 So thank you for making the time to be on For the Wild podcast.

00:03:16.640 Thank you. I've been looking forward to this for a few months now.

00:03:19.180 Yes, yes. I know. I love how our meeting has collided and now we're finally both being able to speak, both in Alaska, although not together, which next year that will have to change at some point.

00:03:32.120 So I'd like to ground our conversation today by giving our listeners some historical context and background information on roadless rule.

00:03:39.920 Passed in 2001 by the Clinton administration, the roadless rule prohibits further road construction and timber harvest in inventoried roadless areas.

00:03:48.740 Roughly one third of all national forest system lands were approximately 58.5 million acres across the country.

00:03:56.480 The rule is considered one of the country's most successful conservation measures,

00:04:00.820 passing with tremendous public participation.

00:04:03.920 Since its passing, however, the rule has faced a series of appeals and injunctions,

00:04:08.840 lawsuits and violations.

00:04:09.960 And in Alaska, the rule currently faces renewed threats under the Trump administration's

00:04:15.360 rollback of public lands conservation, the largest in American history, actually.

00:04:21.200 So to jump in, why is roadless rule so important to uphold and protect?

00:04:25.780 What is at stake in Alaska and in the 22 million acres of the Tongass and the Chugash National Forest that would be reopened to road development and logging?

00:04:35.360 Yeah, thank you so much for that history.

00:04:38.280 That really does set it up well.

00:04:40.400 So the Tongass is the largest forest in Alaska, and it's also the only forest where we really have an active timber industry.

00:04:51.600 The Forest Service likes to say that this rule change is to try to improve access for

00:04:58.240 rural communities in Alaska so we can have access to things like, you know, hydropower.

00:05:05.020 But actually, because this rule change is only impacting the Tongass, it's pretty obvious

00:05:09.240 to see that this is about the timber industry.

00:05:13.540 This is about opening up more acreage of old growth forest to be clear cut.

00:05:19.340 so you had mentioned the tongas is our nation's largest forest it's 17 million acres in southeast

00:05:27.120 alaska it wraps around 11 000 miles of coastline and remains one of the most pristine and productive

00:05:33.640 estuaries on the planet now the tongas is also home to one of the largest remaining areas of

00:05:39.360 ancient old growth temperate rainforest of cedar spruce and hemlock just to name a few

00:05:44.520 some of these trees over a thousand years old, as well as countless plant and wildlife species,

00:05:50.600 including the endangered marbled murrelit, bald eagles, Sitka black-tailed deer,

00:05:55.300 and five species of Pacific salmon. So I'd love if you could tell us more about the dynamic

00:06:00.980 relationships and ecological threads that weave between these plant and animal communities,

00:06:06.180 and why is it so critical that these habitats and wildlife corridors remain undeveloped

00:06:11.180 and intact to support the web of life beyond the Tongass?

00:06:14.500 One of the things that this project has taught me is quite a bit about what is left in the Tongass

00:06:22.780 and why it's important to protect what is left. The timber industry in the Tongass has been

00:06:29.620 active at an industrial scale since the 50s. And since then, so many of the low-lying

00:06:37.960 valleys and sort of easy pathways for animals have been cut. And so when I started this project,

00:06:46.480 I had this idea that I was going to hike through threatened lands and I would only hike through

00:06:52.520 old growth forest. What I found when I actually started planning my routes and getting out into

00:06:59.140 the field is that the most obvious corridors for wildlife have often already been cut. So

00:07:06.620 what that means is that the wildlife has to work harder to move between intact wild places and

00:07:14.000 often has to use logging roads and so the areas that are left unroaded are absolutely essential

00:07:21.520 to provide connectivity for wild animals and without it we're going to see these unique

00:07:29.200 island ecosystems degraded to a point where they will no longer have an intact ecological

00:07:35.600 character. And so protecting these roadless areas is absolutely critical to ensure that the Tongass 0.95

00:07:44.280 remains unfragmented in the places where it still expresses its most wild character.

00:07:51.800 I've experienced the roadless areas in the Tongass, and it's beyond explanation to me

00:07:58.600 that we need to protect these roadless areas because roads are the beginning to the end for

00:08:05.280 species, for intact ecosystems. And it became that much more clear just being on the ground here.

00:08:12.560 Now, the history of land management and resistance to industrial extraction is a much longer story

00:08:19.160 than the present day debate over roadless rule. From one of your field journal entries, I recall

00:08:24.480 that you spent your 10th birthday on an Amtrak train traveling with your family to Washington,

00:08:29.640 D.C. to lobby for the inclusion of the Tongass and the roadless rule. So speaking from your 0.91

00:08:35.380 experience growing up on Prince of Wales Island and immersed in this culture of activism from

00:08:40.260 such a young age, could you give us a sense of the arc of resistance and the shifting stakes

00:08:46.080 in the Tongass? How has this movement and your relationship to it as an organizer and advocate

00:08:51.820 for this land changed through the years? I think that this project and my advocacy within the last

00:08:59.820 few years has had me thinking a lot about how people settle places and how their relationship

00:09:07.640 changes with those places throughout generations. So my parents moved to Alaska in the 70s and both

00:09:17.200 of them were coming from essentially the suburbs. My dad grew up in Ohio and my mom was from

00:09:23.900 Oakland. And they came to Alaska and for them, it was paradise. It was a place where there was

00:09:33.420 wildness and abundance beyond what they ever imagined. So when they moved to Alaska and

00:09:40.360 started a family, I think for them to watch the timber industry, which was really at its peak,

00:09:47.200 when they were starting their family, it was such an attack on what they had found. And this thing

00:09:53.820 that they had found, as I said, was beyond what they could have ever imagined. And so their

00:10:01.200 response to that violent attack was very passionate. And it really, in many ways,

00:10:08.640 was what they needed to do and what felt necessary in that moment. But it wasn't informed by

00:10:15.480 a long history on the land. So growing up in a family that was engaged in environmental activism,

00:10:23.800 I was just aware of how divisive environmental conflict is in rural places and how it tears

00:10:32.720 people apart, the impact that it has on rural communities in terms of, you know, really

00:10:39.540 impacting friendships, impacting the potential for communities to grow and flourish, because

00:10:46.120 there's just so much emotion that is ingrained in the conflict. And so as a second generation

00:10:56.540 environmental activist, I feel that my journey has been a bit more complicated than that,

00:11:02.680 But it's still a young journey. I think it'll take, you know, generations of living in the Tongass to really be able to speak for it in an informed way. And so I hope that my future ancestors are able to carry this work forward.

00:11:21.360 but when I grew up in on Prince of Wales the timber industry was was very visible I remember

00:11:30.040 looking out the window from our log cabin living room and seeing you know these huge ships just

00:11:37.080 loaded with you know freshly fallen trees moving by headed to wherever and as a child like that

00:11:43.780 that was really hard to process what I was actually seeing and I think I didn't really

00:11:48.460 I didn't really have the capacity to understand what was happening to the land that I was growing

00:11:54.300 up on. As a child and for much of my life, the land really showed me beauty almost exclusively.

00:12:03.340 And sometimes that beauty was woven in pretty fierce colors of the storms and the darkness and

00:12:10.400 sort of the intensity of where the land meets the sea and the sharp edges of the coast. But I think

00:12:17.640 most of all the land took care of us and it was just so abundant in that, in giving us the venison

00:12:24.180 and the berries and the birdsong and the tranquility. And so I saw the forest as being

00:12:30.840 abundant and beautiful. And the realities of what the timber industry, you know, with all of the

00:12:40.300 force of government subsidy behind it was doing to my home island and also, you know, all of

00:12:46.560 the rainforest islands in Southeast Alaska that have those big stands of trees.

00:12:51.720 So I think in some ways for me, I, you know, I started the last stands project when I was 27

00:12:58.840 and it really feels like a coming of age project. I think at a certain point, if you're going to live

00:13:06.700 somewhere with dignity and intentionality, you just have to take the blinders off and see

00:13:13.940 around you. And for me, when I first started this project, you know, I had my huge backpack and I

00:13:19.880 was going to hike across the last stands of untouched ancient old growth on Prince of Wales.

00:13:25.900 And I started to look at the forest in a different way to actually understand what the human history

00:13:31.780 of industrial extraction has been. And when I did that, I realized, you know, for the first time

00:13:39.320 that the hillsides around my home were covered in scars and those scars were old clear cuts.

00:13:49.140 And even though those areas were green and looked recovered from the shore,

00:13:53.860 when you look at an old clear cut, it's a green canopy. But what you don't understand when you

00:14:01.320 see that green is that underneath that top layer of the top of the canopy, those old clear cuts

00:14:08.100 are really like dead zones. There's no understory growth or life. And so I think that, you know,

00:14:14.500 as an activist, when I started this, it was, you know, as a 10 year old, I went back to

00:14:21.140 Washington, DC to lobby for the roadless rule. At that time, you know, my parents were just

00:14:28.060 telling me to speak for the value of our lifestyle, because they recognized that our lifestyle was

00:14:34.620 under attack. So I was just speaking to these people who are making these decisions and trying

00:14:41.960 to tell them as a 10-year-old why I cared about salmon and why I liked being able to play in the

00:14:49.740 forest. But now as an adult, I think that I've finally come to a place where I can start to

00:14:59.000 meet the forest with a more honest approach of seeing and understanding. And it's been,

00:15:09.560 in some ways, sort of a painful transition because those realities are really hard to bear.

00:15:19.520 I was visualizing you as a young child playing in the forest and going to Washington, D.C., and

00:15:25.540 I love hearing your stories. So thank you for sharing those personal pieces of your life with

00:15:31.060 us. I was actually just looking for this quote that you once wrote, quote, there are not anonymous

00:15:37.960 lands. These are lands with long histories, rich webs of life and value that extends far beyond

00:15:44.640 stumpage, end quote. And I'm wondering why have you chosen to tell the story of the Tongass in

00:15:50.640 the way that you have, beyond traditional data and scientific methodologies, but instead through

00:15:56.400 written word, drawings, photography, social media, and compelling narratives. And maybe a second part

00:16:03.360 to that is beyond the measurable scientific findings, it seems that so much of what you're

00:16:09.120 trying to give voice to in this project cannot be captured or quantified in the data. So I also

00:16:14.980 wonder how you share these important messages with the court's lobbyist or those who may not

00:16:19.900 necessarily see value beyond the numbers. Yeah. Trying to figure out how to do that has been

00:16:27.320 at the heart of this journey. And I think that's in part why this project continues for me when

00:16:34.560 whenever I have open space in my life, I feel myself drawn back to the forest and drawn back

00:16:41.780 to this sort of intense interdisciplinary way of trying to experience a place. And it's

00:16:49.080 interdisciplinary because of the people that I journey with. So I think that ground truthing

00:16:55.660 for me is a way to engage with public lands as fully as we can and try to democratize

00:17:07.560 the sort of information that is shared with the public about their lands. So the Tongass is

00:17:14.960 held in common between all of us who are citizens of the United States. And for me,

00:17:23.360 ground truthing is a way to bring a human and a non-expert perspective to the table.

00:17:30.320 Spending time on the land gives somebody authority to speak for what is valuable there.

00:17:36.080 And what I've found actually is that a lot of times the folks who are in management roles

00:17:42.960 don't actually understand what is truly in the forest beyond the colors that they're looking at

00:17:50.820 on the map. And we've actually had an experience with the Last Sands Project where we talked to

00:17:57.720 a ranger at a local Forest Service office about an area that we were planning to walk through.

00:18:05.040 And we were concerned about that area because it did have a heavy past with timber extraction,

00:18:11.440 And we knew that it was just going to be this, you know, chopped up matrix of broken lands.

00:18:16.800 And we wanted to find a path that would take us through some of the old growth that was left there.

00:18:22.320 And this ranger who is the local manager for the forest pointed to areas on the map that were designated old growth reserve and told us that, you know, that's where the big trees would be.

00:18:36.560 And so we went there and we had to walk on logging roads to get there.

00:18:40.540 and when we got there we realized that what he had sent us to were actually very old clear cuts

00:18:48.680 so clear cuts that had happened before the forest service started taking good notes basically

00:18:54.600 so that was really interesting just realizing that just because something is designated in

00:19:01.880 a certain way on on the map doesn't mean that you know that that accepted reality is going to hold

00:19:07.100 up when you're in the forest itself. So yeah, that idea of ground truthing as a citizen of

00:19:15.740 this democracy to be in the land and to confirm whether or not what we've been told is true,

00:19:23.360 which is a definition that I'm sort of pulling from Terry Tempest Williams and some of the work

00:19:28.500 that she's done in the arctic i think that is a critical foundation of this project i think what

00:19:37.280 i've started to realize on a more personal level is that we need to we need to have stories to

00:19:44.040 explain the urgency of these issues and we need to have stories that will fuel us as conservationists

00:19:54.380 and keep us going even when that advocacy work feels futile.

00:20:00.500 Stories can come from experiences that we create for ourselves.

00:20:05.620 And I think that for many people in our generation,

00:20:09.600 we're starting to realize that we live in a culture

00:20:13.380 that is devoid of the sort of ritual that we need

00:20:16.740 to find a more reverent relationship with nature.

00:20:19.500 so you know we have to sort of start out in this fledgling way to try to create our own rituals and

00:20:26.820 and yet there's so much to pull from and I think the idea of walking and pilgrimage is something

00:20:34.160 that has been really inspiring for me on this project I mean it's the most ancient way to be

00:20:40.720 an awareness of a landscape in a humble way and if you do enough of it you sort of find a rhythm

00:20:49.480 So for me, this moving through the dense rainforest, it really is bushwhacking. I mean, it's not like we're moving in slow motion through glorious stands of huge old trees. So much of it is just like crawling on hands and knees through dense thickets of berry bushes and pokey devil's club.

00:21:09.680 But when you do it enough, you're really opening yourself up to joy as well. And there's so much that I'm still processing from this work, but I feel like this sort of joy that comes from spending a lot of time in a place that is threatened with the hope of protecting it is what motivates you to tell stories about the place and work for it.

00:21:37.920 You know, and I plan to work for these, you know, stands of old growth for the rest of my life. And I know that I'll have to.

00:21:44.180 stories are powerful and they have been for us humans probably since the very beginning

00:21:51.880 and i don't think that data alone is going to support us in protecting these places i think

00:22:01.740 it's important to an extent to be able to ramble off oh the carbon sequestration information and

00:22:07.240 that of course we're going through a massive extinction and those things are important but

00:22:12.000 I'm really with you in the way that you see where the power lies to shift people's perspective.

00:22:20.880 Yeah. And that point of, you know, data is a really good one. And I think we're in an

00:22:26.280 interesting time because I feel that people who understand that things aren't going the way they

00:22:34.220 should be, who, you know, feel a hole in their hearts are often told that, you know, data is

00:22:42.800 the sort of root of those problems. You know, we're at a time where we're, you know, questioning

00:22:47.740 science. That's not what this project is about. You know, we're absolutely not questioning science.

00:22:54.580 I think what I'm trying to do and sort of find my way through as a local advocate for these places

00:23:02.920 is to just be a more whole and fierce defender by having connection to, you know, each of these

00:23:13.580 stands of force that are threatened. And I think that, you know, when you put yourself out there

00:23:19.900 in that way, it makes it work a lot more painful. I'm fully anticipating that some of these areas

00:23:27.820 that I've visited on Prince of Wales will be logged not just within my lifetime but within

00:23:33.560 the next 10 years and so when I hear about that I'm going to be you know imagining that gorgeous

00:23:41.300 cedar tree that I stumbled upon after hours of thrashing around in thickets of berry bushes

00:23:48.120 you know stepping out and like coming to that gentle flowing creek and seeing this enormous

00:23:54.080 tree that just holds so much space and so much silence and, you know, seeing around it the beds

00:24:00.120 of deer and just the ways that like seeing through the forest, the ways that the animals and, you

00:24:06.940 know, the things that are living in the forest appreciate the presence of that tree. When that

00:24:11.540 place is threatened, I am going to feel that so deeply. And I think that in some ways that feels

00:24:21.560 really scary. I mean, when you forge these personal connections with places, what you're

00:24:27.840 doing is you're opening yourself up for heartbreak. But I also think that it allows me to speak in a

00:24:35.920 more informed way about what's actually on the ground. And one of the environmental writers that

00:24:41.780 resonates most with me is Wendell Berry. And I think the reason that I feel such a strong affinity

00:24:49.800 for him is because he also is working to love a place that has been hit hard by industry.

00:24:58.820 And when I say working, I really do mean that. I think that it takes effort to open yourself up

00:25:06.200 to love places that have been hurt. So some of the things that Wendell Berry is dealing with

00:25:11.460 and thinking about as he writes and as he finds an environmental ethic for Appalachia is

00:25:19.260 the impact of industrial agriculture and coal mining and boom economies and the poverty that

00:25:25.180 follows in the wake of those booms. And where I'm from, Prince of Wales has also been hit hard

00:25:32.100 by industrial extraction. And we're dealing with the same after effect of boom and bust

00:25:39.220 industry. And that's why Prince of Wales is called the Sacrifice Zone. And it's interesting

00:25:45.580 to relate this to Wendell Berry because he's writing about industrial agriculture. And that's

00:25:51.480 a huge part of the problem for the Tongass and all forests within our national forest system

00:25:57.760 is that they're being managed under the Department of Agriculture. You know, the Forest Service

00:26:03.500 is part of the Department of Agriculture. And so that's part of the reason why we're letting

00:26:10.440 ancient forests that have been thousands of years in the growing to be managed as if they're crops

00:26:17.920 of lettuce. So these foresters that are working within the system of management are experts,

00:26:26.860 but they're experts in a sort of quantitative system that I think will always be deferential

00:26:37.680 to the needs of the timber industry because the outputs of timber are easily measured

00:26:44.160 and the successful managers of Southeast Alaska are the ones that are able to show the productivity

00:26:52.820 of the land as it's measured through, you know, millions of board feet of old growth trees.

00:26:59.760 So the kind of value that a citizen of Southeast Alaska, you know, someone that lives in the

00:27:07.300 Tongass is trying to speak to, you know, when they're pushing back against these policies

00:27:13.540 is a lot harder to quantify. I mean, we're talking about a lot of times what we're talking about

00:27:20.160 something that's more spiritual and we're talking about our need for beauty. We're talking about our

00:27:27.360 need to continue to live in a way that our parents have made for us. And in the case of many people

00:27:36.960 in Southeast Alaska who are indigenous to the land it's thousands of years of ancestors who

00:27:43.960 have made that way and that unfortunately is not something that expert culture is very good at

00:27:53.980 and I think that this project the idea of ground truthing is for me at least like a way to

00:28:03.660 really strengthen my local knowledge and my love of this area that will continually

00:28:12.240 be under attack by a management system that exists to quantify productivity of the land.

00:28:33.660 We'll place our records in these dark hours.

00:28:37.800 Our love is unprotected like the ocean waves pouring over my feet.

00:28:44.880 It reaches my knees and for a moment I am lost in the sway.

00:28:55.520 And we're dancing all night in your reading room

00:29:03.860 And your books are talking to us and the music too

00:29:13.840 And if I could go back to any day

00:29:18.620 I would take a photograph of you in this space

00:29:24.580 Now it's just an empty room

00:29:34.180 Like cigarettes more left as an evening dew

00:29:40.280 We could paint it over a thousand times

00:29:47.160 But it would still be the same shade of highway blue 0.92

00:29:52.820 you had mentioned that prince of wales where you grew up is the sacrifice zone of the boom

00:30:06.880 and bust of logging it's also i've read it being called ground zero for old growth logging i think

00:30:12.520 that was actually what drew me to go to prince of wales island was seeing that on a i think it was

00:30:17.820 an article title. And I'm just curious how this economic conflict plays out in your community

00:30:25.640 of Prince of Wales. How did the logging boom through the second half of the 20th century

00:30:30.800 not only drastically impact the forest and watershed ecosystems, but also sow the seeds

00:30:36.580 of social division and cultural toxicity? And how do you go about navigating the complexity

00:30:41.960 intentions that are rooted in these issues as an advocate, an activist, and a neighbor?

00:30:48.780 Well, I feel often that I am well prepared to be an advocate for conservation in Southeast Alaska

00:30:59.060 because of my relationship with salmon. I've spent every summer of my life

00:31:05.740 working in the commercial salmon fishing industry in one way or the other.

00:31:10.920 I grew up on my family's fishing boat, would spend three to four months of the year with my family on our tiny 42-foot wooden fishing boat, catching salmon and making our livelihood.

00:31:25.040 And in my early 20s, I started running my own boat and fishing solo, and I did that for about five years.

00:31:33.800 And I think that was really important work for me and continues to be because I understand how you can have a really powerful, meaningful relationship with a creature or a living thing that you're taking the life from.

00:31:58.220 And I also understand how significant that sort of work is to maintaining connections between family. It's an important thing in my family that I'm still a fisherman, because I can call my parents and ask them how their fishing season is going. And we can have like a really vital back and forth about the work that we do. And that's an important thing to me.

00:32:22.560 But what I've started to realize is that, you know, the story of commercial fishing in Southeast Alaska and of logging are really actually close.

00:32:34.980 When the commercial fishing industry started in Southeast Alaska, people used to catch these, you know, big hundred pound king salmon, like pretty frequently.

00:32:43.880 And I've never even seen a fish that big.

00:32:46.780 The size of those big king salmon has been gradually declining over the last 80 years.

00:32:56.100 And the big fish that my father caught when he first started fishing here are twice the size of the big fish that I catch now.

00:33:04.580 And I think that there's sadness in watching that sort of change.

00:33:09.260 And it feels really basic to want to try to hold things as they are, to not want to accept that reality that, you know, humans have had an impact. The reason why there aren't those big fish anymore is because that genetic line has been removed in large part because of commercial fishermen.

00:33:29.760 and of course you know commercial salmon fishing is a lot different than logging old growth trees

00:33:37.240 because these big trees that were falling are you know sometimes you know 500 600 700 even

00:33:43.800 you know a thousand years old so that cycle of return is is a very long one and it's really hard

00:33:51.180 to to correct the wrong that has been done but I guess what I feel is important to me as a

00:33:58.700 conservationist. And what allows me to work in communities without feeling too much anger is

00:34:04.480 recognizing that these sort of industries are often the way that people are finding their

00:34:11.040 identity and finding their connection to their family. And a lot of communities on Prince of

00:34:18.260 Wales were founded, well, white settler communities were founded on the timber industry.

00:34:26.380 and those communities are dying out because for one, they were never built with the sort of

00:34:34.780 stability or care that most communities are. I mean, they were boom towns. People came because

00:34:41.080 there were jobs and some of those people really fell in love with the lifestyle and wanted to

00:34:45.520 stay. So coming to realize that and realizing the commonality that I have with those people

00:34:53.000 who are working in the timber industry is definitely, it's one of the painful parts of

00:34:59.900 this work. I think as a second generation advocate for the Tongass, it's not natural for me

00:35:08.080 to demonize the other side. What is wrong is that very few people are actually making money

00:35:17.200 off of falling these ancient trees what is wrong is that when we clear-cut forests

00:35:24.720 and send you know 50 to 80 percent of those trees overseas we're stripping the land that we live on

00:35:35.260 of its value and we're doing that for the next 200 years because an old growth forest won't

00:35:43.700 be able to carve out its, you know, vital existence on those lands for at least another

00:35:50.340 200 years. When I advocate for stopping the timber industry at an industrial scale,

00:35:55.840 I'm doing that in part because I want to see people continue to live on Prince of Wales

00:36:02.820 and continue to have the opportunity to have relationship with big old trees. And sometimes

00:36:08.980 that relationship, you know, involves taking the life of that tree and using it for something.

00:36:13.700 And, you know, from like an economic perspective, those big old growth trees are like money in the bank for local communities.

00:36:23.520 But we can't just think about them in terms of their immediate economic value because that is stripping land of its abundance and its, you know, potential to support future generations.

00:36:36.180 and actually being able to communicate that in an effective way and a way that can make a difference

00:36:44.040 with policy is very challenging, especially now when we're in a time where we're seeing

00:36:50.460 the NEPA process being undermined. People are being removed from management decisions

00:36:58.220 and they're being removed so a very few can make a quick buck that's pretty tragic and i don't

00:37:06.180 think that's what anybody wants in southeast alaska thank you for sharing some of the

00:37:13.880 complexities with us and how you have come to find a type of reckoning with this really painful

00:37:22.720 issue in your home and i so appreciate the work that you have done on yourself and perhaps the

00:37:30.000 salmon and the forest have done on you to be able to hold the complexity so gracefully now i want to

00:37:36.720 talk a little bit more about the economic issues surrounding this old growth logging and in january

00:37:42.720 in 2018 just to give some context the state of alaska sent a petition to the usda requesting

00:37:49.640 that these areas be exempt from the roadless rule. And since then, they have jointly signed

00:37:54.580 a memorandum of understanding announcing their intention to create an Alaska state-specific

00:38:00.020 version of the rule that would reopen to logging and road building. Based on my research for this

00:38:06.240 episode, it seems that the state and logging industry's opposition to the rule is largely

00:38:11.040 mounted on this economic claim that road construction, further development, and resource

00:38:16.420 extraction is economically beneficial to Alaskans. So as somebody who works in the fishing industry,

00:38:22.600 like you've told us, if you could paint a more comprehensive picture for us of these many

00:38:28.460 economic issues at play in the debate around the rule, I just want you to speak to those people

00:38:34.160 who say, but what about jobs? What about the economy? We need this. Or people from the outside

00:38:41.440 who think that they should support this exemption to the roadless rule because they believe that

00:38:46.900 it's actually going to be supporting people. Yeah. The economic rationale for the timber

00:38:52.560 industry in Southeast Alaska is incredibly frustrating to have to continually address

00:38:58.680 because the timber industry in Southeast Alaska has feasted off of subsidies for pretty much

00:39:09.240 since its industrial formation. And in reality, you know, tourism and commercial fishing

00:39:17.260 provides about 25% of the jobs in Southeast Alaska, and logging provides less than 1%.

00:39:25.620 And so the numbers are there, you know, tourism and commercial fishing,

00:39:30.360 Those industries are reliant on the Tongass to be this beautiful, incredibly rich place, not just visually, but down to the watersheds as well that support salmon that commercial fishermen are absolutely reliant on.

00:39:51.740 But that's not really where the argument is at, really. As we were talking about before, I mean, this really is a cultural thing.

00:39:59.860 There's a few people in Southeast Alaska who are making a lot of money off the timber industry, and they're able to sort of play that cultural card to influence politicians who want to work to support their livelihood.

00:40:22.400 But what's really sad is that the timber industry, as it is, has a very short future. So Prince of Wales, where I'm from, has the last mill that is cutting trees on an industrial scale in Southeast.

00:40:39.420 And so that means that a lot of the policy changes that are put forward to try to encourage growth in the timber industry in Southeast Alaska are done almost exclusively for the benefit of that one mill.

00:40:54.040 That mill employs about 40 people.

00:40:56.480 So when the Forest Service and the Trump administration and the state of Alaska continue to manage the Tongass National Forest for clear-cut logging, they are justifying that decision based on the fact that there is a mill that is still doing that logging and operating locally.

00:41:18.320 the sort of depressing side of that and and the the reason why there's urgency i think in this

00:41:27.160 moment is that that mill viking mill refuses to transition to a second growth industry so a second

00:41:37.980 growth industry would be an industry where they were cutting trees that have grown up on the scars

00:41:47.180 of clear cuts from you know the past 50 years they refuse to do that their machinery is

00:41:56.000 so big that it can only process old growth trees and when that mill shuts down the family that's

00:42:07.420 running the mill they'll be fine the folks who won't be fine are you know those 40 workers which

00:42:14.280 That's how many workers Viking claim work at their mill. But in fact, there's probably only another, you know, maybe 15 years of old growth timber left on Prince of Wales.

00:42:29.400 and if we open up these roadless areas maybe there's more but we're really looking at this

00:42:36.700 mill shutting down within most likely the next like 10 or 20 years because there just aren't

00:42:44.200 enough old growth trees left to make the industry profitable for a mill that's operating at that

00:42:49.660 size and so it really comes down to now will we make the decision to actually gracefully transition

00:42:57.940 the Tongass, away from clear-cut logging? Will we take care of the people who work at that mill

00:43:03.940 and provide them other jobs? Or will we just let this go as every other boom and bust community

00:43:09.600 will go if it's allowed? Take the last of what stands. People lose their jobs. They leave town

00:43:18.620 because there's nothing left. And if we allow Viking Mill to continue to cut trees on Prince

00:43:24.940 of Wales, there will be nothing left because the forest is an essential part of the reason why

00:43:32.600 people live on Prince of Wales. It provides us with venison. Sitka black-tailed deer are essential

00:43:39.860 to people who live a subsistence lifestyle, and most people do. It provides us with the sort of

00:43:46.460 watersheds that can support the return of salmon. And it also supplies us with what is arguably

00:43:53.340 still the most abundant opportunity in Southeast Alaska, which is these big, beautiful trees

00:43:59.220 that we can make refined products out of, that we can build economies around.

00:44:07.080 The question is, is whether or not those economies are going to be economies that can be,

00:44:12.460 you know, tended and passed through generations, or whether they're just going to be a boom

00:44:17.440 and bust economy that takes what it can get, takes the money and then leaves.

00:44:21.420 And so the economic argument that the timber industry utilizes is so incredibly weak.

00:44:34.160 The only reason why this industry exists is because of government subsidies.

00:44:40.700 It is so expensive to cut trees in Southeast Alaska.

00:44:44.900 The mile of road runs about $180,000.

00:44:49.140 dollars, that money is given to the timber industry by the U.S. Forest Service. They literally take

00:44:55.680 that off the price tag of these timber sales because they, you know, somehow justify that it

00:45:02.960 will provide future economic opportunity to these places. So the timber industry is able to operate

00:45:12.380 because of those subsidies and that's the reason why we have like 2,500 miles of logging roads on

00:45:21.220 an island that's only 135 miles long and when the only mill that's operating on the island

00:45:29.280 has made it abundantly clear that as soon as the old growth is gone they're going to pack up shop

00:45:35.980 and retreat down to their parent corporation in Washington it's obvious to the people who live

00:45:41.340 there, who, who want to live there, who want to see there continue to be vital communities

00:45:46.580 that, you know, the US Forest Service's justification for providing subsidies for

00:45:52.960 logging roads is a lie. If, if there's no timber industry present that wants to harvest second

00:46:00.400 growth, then those roads that, you know, we've been paying to build are a one-off. They're a

00:46:07.040 one-off for very few people who are making profit off of this beautiful rainforest that is held in

00:46:14.740 common by the people of the United States. God damn it. And beyond that, I look around in the 0.99

00:46:24.520 commercial fishing industry and I see that the young people who are investing in the industry

00:46:29.880 are doing it in an incredibly thoughtful way you know they've recognized that no longer do we live

00:46:37.640 in a time where there's just raw abundance there's more people living in the tongas national forest

00:46:44.160 than there ever have been and you know we're pretty hungry for resources so the pop the

00:46:51.400 populations of wild salmon aren't what they used to be and i see you know young fishermen responding

00:46:57.560 to that in a really smart way, which is this realization that this action of structuring

00:47:03.940 their business so they're able to catch less and make more money off of it.

00:47:09.120 And that means that they're, you know, creating value-added products.

00:47:13.740 You know, they're putting it in a jar, they're, you know, filleting it themselves and creating

00:47:18.880 direct markets that make sense for them.

00:47:21.620 I think that it's 79% of the salmon that are harvested commercially in Southeast Alaska are coming from streams on the Tongass. Those salmon are reliant on those big old growth trees to hold that together.

00:47:34.700 and also um tourism is uh significant um people want to visit this place because it has

00:47:43.660 a sort of raw beauty it has in this you know this lushness this life it has so many things living

00:47:51.180 in it has the hugest bears it has you know hump humpback whales that the connection between land

00:47:56.720 and sea is is visible and you can experience it even if you only are you know coming in

00:48:03.500 and staying for a few days or a week. And so those two industries that are so valuable and

00:48:11.180 are reliant on the Tongass make up 25% of the economic resource in Southeast Alaska

00:48:20.520 and the timber industry is less than 1%.

00:48:23.440 percent.

00:48:53.440 The islands are appalling

00:49:01.480 The islands are appalling

00:49:05.160 I've been flying in

00:49:07.060 Drinking champagne

00:49:10.680 On this pleasure boat

00:49:16.480 Just like the California coast

00:49:23.440 The islands are a-calling, the islands are a-calling

00:49:29.700 You told me to go and have a good time

00:49:35.700 That it'd be silly to let us slip by

00:49:41.320 So I took your advice

00:49:53.440 So I'm drinking margaritas on a Saturday night

00:50:15.540 You are looking real fine

00:50:17.540 And you're feeling alright

00:50:19.940 But my world came crashing down right

00:50:22.440 as I got off the plane when a phone call came in. And this is what they said. You've got to go

00:50:31.660 home. You've got to go home. I really want to focus now back on the roadless rule.

00:50:43.480 And over the years, allied government and corporate entities have chipped away at the

00:50:48.140 integrity of legislation and protections for the Tongass, largely by disregarding or barring public

00:50:54.600 input and denying citizens their right to information. The Forest Service is opening up

00:50:59.940 a period for public input this summer or potentially in the next few weeks even on Alaska

00:51:05.460 state-specific rulemaking, but this commentary period will likely come during the busiest fishing

00:51:11.420 season, guiding season, or at the end of it if it's coming in a couple weeks, which essentially

00:51:16.420 obstructs due process and citizen input, particularly from those who make a living

00:51:21.060 from the state's natural resources, thus most impacted by the ruling, which is just crazy

00:51:26.640 making to know that. Now, public participation was instrumental in the passing of roadless rule

00:51:31.740 back in 2001, with more than 600 public hearings around the nation, 1.6 million public comments,

00:51:38.320 and 95% supporting strong roadless protection. So what, if anything, has changed in this case?

00:51:45.000 Has there been maybe less public participation and consensus around this issue? Or has the opposition put more barriers in place to try and force through this legislation? And yeah, maybe also speak to just the importance of making the comment when it does open potentially in a few weeks.

00:52:03.960 Yeah. So the roadless rule was very popular when the Clinton administration started to plan it and heard from the people and was able to finalize the rule in 2001.

00:52:18.420 And the state of Alaska has pushed back on the rules since the beginning, you know, because of this sort of adherence to the timber industry and the will of the timber industry, even as that industry is becoming such a small part of our economy.

00:52:37.440 and last fall when the U.S. Forest Service was scoping this rule change

00:52:43.980 and they were traveling to communities in Southeast Alaska,

00:52:49.380 which is quite the undertaking.

00:52:51.720 A lot of communities are very remote,

00:52:53.920 and so it's an effort to travel to these communities

00:52:56.680 and to hear from people.

00:52:57.980 In almost every community, the opposition to the rule change

00:53:06.380 was almost complete. For instance, in Sitka, 100% of the people that came and spoke at the

00:53:15.180 for-service hearing were opposed to the rule change. Even on Prince of Wales, where, as I've

00:53:22.000 mentioned, the timber industry does still exist in an industrial scale, people were largely opposed

00:53:28.880 to the rule change. And I've never seen this kind of cohesion among communities in Southeast Alaska,

00:53:38.240 which are all very diverse. The roadless rule is working for Southeast Alaska. The people in

00:53:44.900 Southeast Alaska want to see it stay in effect. But it is frustrating that the Forest Service has

00:53:50.820 originally been trying to release the draft environmental impact statement with their select

00:53:56.380 plan for shifting the role of the roadless rule in the Tongass and opening up new lands to clear

00:54:02.960 cut logging. For whatever reason, we've seen a delay in the Forest Service process. And as far

00:54:09.800 as I know, you know, the public hasn't heard anything about the reason for this delay,

00:54:14.820 but the Forest Service hasn't yet released their draft environmental impact statement. So we don't

00:54:21.340 know what lands are threatened, and we don't know the scale of this change. But they will be

00:54:27.640 releasing this in the next few weeks, and the public will have an opportunity to comment.

00:54:34.140 And it is incredibly important that people engage with this comment process, especially as we're

00:54:40.720 seeing the Trump administration work to try to weaken this type of process across the board

00:54:47.460 through their proposed changes to the NEPA public process.

00:54:52.940 One of the things I think about a lot is how people who live outside of Alaska

00:54:57.160 and maybe who have never been to the Tongass,

00:54:59.880 how they might find a way to take the time to engage in this issue.

00:55:09.860 And I think if it was me, if I was living somewhere far away

00:55:14.780 and didn't really know much about the Tongass,

00:55:18.160 you know, I would want to know

00:55:19.900 where the locals stand on this issue.

00:55:22.520 What do the local people feel?

00:55:24.920 So Ayana, I really hope that your listeners

00:55:27.600 will take the time to engage with this process.

00:55:32.140 And I hope that they will submit comments

00:55:35.500 to encourage the Forest Service,

00:55:39.140 the Department of Agriculture

00:55:40.720 to select the no action alternative

00:55:44.120 which would mean that the Tongass would remain protected under the roadless rule.

00:55:49.060 And when I think about what might motivate your listeners to do this, I think it's important

00:55:54.240 for them to know that during the scoping process, there were, I think, about 143,000 comments that

00:56:02.920 were submitted. And about 90% of those comments were in favor of not changing the roadless rule,

00:56:11.560 of leaving the roadless rule, acting on the Tongass, of continuing to protect these last

00:56:18.120 stands of old growth. And so the people who care about the Tongass want to see this rule in place.

00:56:25.860 And almost everybody that was engaged with the public scoping meetings in local communities

00:56:31.700 in Southeast Alaska came out to say that this rule is working. This rule is working for the

00:56:37.580 Tongass. It has minimized conflict in our communities. It has ensured that wildlife have 1.00

00:56:43.920 safe corridors and that we have the sort of resilience in our natural systems that we need

00:56:52.200 to continue to live our way of life in the Tongass. And so local people for the most part are

00:56:59.160 in support of the roadless rule for the Tongass and do not want to see this change. And the second

00:57:04.600 thing that I think might be really important to your listeners is something that I mentioned

00:57:08.300 earlier. The Tongass is a huge sink for carbon emissions, and it sequesters 8% of the United

00:57:18.240 States' carbon. That's part of the climate change solution, is ensuring that these forests that are

00:57:27.340 standing, that are doing what they do, the lungs of our planet aren't cut down. And with the

00:57:35.240 Sunrise Movement, I'm really encouraged to see what is coming of that and people working

00:57:41.320 really hard and doing the organizing work necessary to determine what these climate

00:57:48.920 change solutions are. And I think it's really important that we remember to do what is easy,

00:57:53.760 which is, you know, stop subsidizing an industry that is stripping us of our existing carbon

00:58:01.360 reserves. So I hope that those two things can motivate your listeners to submit a public

00:58:07.440 comment. And, you know, public comments can be really intimidating. And that's another part of

00:58:13.640 this project for me is part of the work that I'm doing in the Tongass. I feel like that there's so 0.51

00:58:20.260 much deference given to the way we quantify these issues and, you know, the statistics and the

00:58:26.680 numbers and, and that's all important, but that's all information that is held by decision makers

00:58:32.800 already. That's information that they should be referencing when they're making their decisions.

00:58:37.700 And they're not, you know, the numbers line up in favor of protecting the Tongass. And so what is 0.66

00:58:45.180 important for the Forest Service to hear is that the people of the United States want to see this

00:58:51.140 forest valued for the right reasons, you know, as a carbon sink, as a refuge for wildlife. So

00:59:00.980 when I try to encourage people to write public comments, I ask them to, you know, imagine the

00:59:08.660 rainforest and imagine the wildlife and all of the connections of life within that forest

00:59:16.420 and just let yourself write a love letter and at the end of that love letter or at the beginning

00:59:22.900 maybe it's best at the beginning and the end say that you support the no action alternative for

00:59:29.340 the tongas you want to see the roadless rule remain in effect on the tongas and that's all

00:59:36.160 that you need to do. Everything that you've been saying has been nectar to my soul and I

00:59:44.520 respect you so much Elsa and I'm behind you and I feel really fulfilled that we got to spend this

00:59:52.700 time together and I was able to learn even more about your passion and fierce devotion to this

00:59:58.700 place. The last thing I was just going to ask is is there anything that we haven't covered or is

01:00:03.980 there anything that you want to leave the audience with whether that's website information how to get

01:00:09.980 a hold of you or just any last statements that you want to make sure that you share at this time

01:00:15.960 one thing that has been important to me in learning how to be a strong advocate for the

01:00:25.360 Tongass. I'm working to become as strong of an advocate as I can be with all of who I am

01:00:32.760 and all of who I'm not. But as we think about the work that we do for the environment

01:00:40.400 and for conservation, I think it's really important not to be afraid of places that

01:00:49.900 have been scarred deeply by histories of extraction. And sometimes working to protect

01:01:01.000 these areas can be deeply painful because it forces us to contend with our roots, with our

01:01:09.020 histories, with the reasons why we've come to live in the places that we live in. Our history as a

01:01:14.900 nation is is not a pretty one and what I've learned through this project and what I've learned

01:01:21.940 through this pilgrimage which I really feel like it's been a pilgrimage I've walked through

01:01:27.960 so many lands on Prince of Wales and some of them are beautiful stands of big cedar trees

01:01:37.320 and some of them are you know totally ravaged recently clear-cut places where the dynamite

01:01:45.520 is still going off you know like there's still roads being built and it feels like we're at war

01:01:50.360 with the earth and then even worse than that you know moving through a 50 year old clear-cut where

01:01:55.440 even though it's green on the top even though the canopy is green the trees that are supporting that

01:02:01.980 canopy are so tight together. There's no diversity of size or age. And so they're just, they're

01:02:08.480 choking each other out and you move through those areas and they're just dead. Those landscapes are

01:02:13.020 hard to move through. And I think that it becomes challenging to know how to advocate for those

01:02:21.480 areas. But as you learn to advocate for areas, not because they're perfect, not because they're

01:02:29.060 pristine, but because they're essential to life. It becomes easier to be a better friend to yourself

01:02:36.540 and to the imperfections within yourself. And that's been part of my journey with this.

01:02:43.660 And it's certainly being in the position of speaking for this place that I'm from, for

01:02:52.220 for Prince of Wales and for the Tongass to large audiences of people is, is not a position that

01:02:58.840 I'm necessarily comfortable in. You know, I grew up in the woods. I grew up in a village of 30 0.83

01:03:04.920 people. I was homeschooled. I've had a stutter for, you know, over half of my life and, and,

01:03:11.800 and I continue to have a stutter. Um, I am much happier in solitude. It is not easy for me to

01:03:20.140 speak out. And I think it's my connection with the natural world that has left me as a quiet

01:03:28.380 person. I think that the forest inspires humility and it inspires slowness. And those are things

01:03:37.460 that we can't always find, often aren't present with advocacy work. We're expected to speak

01:03:43.800 loudly we're expected to speak with authority it's too often urgent and we have to act faster

01:03:51.340 than we feel like we're capable of but I think it's these kind of journeys that offer us meaning

01:03:59.420 and so you know when when folks are thinking about how to advocate for the Tongass and how

01:04:05.400 to advocate for the places that they're from and for yourself you know I want to encourage

01:04:10.940 those who feel inspiration in these words

01:04:15.100 to look to the areas where beauty

01:04:18.420 is having to fight really hard.

01:04:21.980 And yeah, it's really wonderful

01:04:25.180 to be part of your community.

01:04:27.580 And thank you, Ayana.

01:04:29.520 And I will just follow that

01:04:31.580 by encouraging folks

01:04:33.520 if they're interested in my project.

01:04:35.500 My ground truthing project is online.

01:04:37.980 we have a website www.laststands.org on that website there'll be some resources if you want

01:04:44.820 to learn more about the roadless rule there's also some blog posts about our journey through

01:04:51.000 the tongas and i'll be adding some more here shortly and um we share photos through instagram

01:04:59.420 although social media is not always a place where i'm super comfortable or confident i i really

01:05:05.640 enjoy being able to show people who are part of the Tongass as you know citizens of the United

01:05:14.300 States I enjoy being able to show them these lands that we hold together so please check that out

01:05:20.540 and the other thing that there are a lot of conservation groups that are doing really

01:05:28.920 powerful work to protect the Tongass one of the last stands adventurers Natalie Dawson has been

01:05:35.280 involved with the project since the beginning. And she's the executive director of Audubon Alaska

01:05:40.460 now. She just stepped into that role a few months ago. And I know that Natalie is doing really

01:05:46.880 powerful work through that group. So check out Audubon Alaska and also Southeast Alaska

01:05:52.440 Conservation Council has published on their website something that they're calling the

01:05:58.700 roadless rule toolkit. And that toolkit offers different ways for folks who are concerned about

01:06:06.100 this rule change to engage. So that's a really great resource and might be helpful to your

01:06:12.720 listeners. I hope that your listeners can also look forward to a film that I'm working on with

01:06:18.060 Wild Confluence Media. And that film is scheduled to come out probably in March. So we're hoping

01:06:25.280 to get that on the road next spring.

01:06:28.100 As Elsa spoke about, 1.00

01:06:29.680 one of the largest threats facing the Tongass at this time

01:06:32.580 is Trump's plan to rescind the roadless rule

01:06:35.300 and open 9.2 million acres of protected land

01:06:38.940 back up to logging and resource extraction.

01:06:42.080 We have a 60-day window to make our voices heard

01:06:45.000 and send in our public comments.

01:06:47.180 The time is now to take action

01:06:48.940 and stand up for the future of the Tongass.

01:06:51.600 First, we urge you to send in your public comment

01:06:54.100 as soon as possible.

01:06:55.280 You can do so today through Southeast Alaska Conservation Council or SEAC's online portal.

01:07:01.800 Their plan is to flood the U.S. Forest Service on Saturday, October 19th, as soon as the comment period opens, with all of the comments that they have collected so far.

01:07:11.660 Thereafter, every comment made through their website will go directly to the U.S. Forest Service.

01:07:16.640 The deadline is December 17th, 2019 at midnight Alaska time.

01:07:21.260 visit seac.org or our website for the wild.world to find the full link

01:07:28.600 second please consider making a donation to lost stands fundraising campaign and support the team

01:07:35.400 in bringing stories of the tongas to life through their beautiful art and film projects visit go

01:07:41.080 fund me and search tongas lost stands to stay up to date and informed about issues in the tongas

01:07:47.340 check out the following organizations and follow them on social media

01:07:51.380 audubon alaska southeast alaska conservation council sitka conservation society women's

01:07:58.360 earth and climate action network and earth justice lastly one of the most important

01:08:03.360 things you can do is spread the word and share this information and episode with your friends

01:08:08.020 families neighbors anyone who cares about the future of our public lands we'll need as many

01:08:14.020 people as possible to step up and stop this legislation from passing. As always, you can

01:08:19.660 visit our website at forthewild.world or click on the details tab of this episode for links and more

01:08:25.680 information. Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young.

01:08:33.780 The music you heard today was from Aaron Durant. I'd like to thank our magical team,

01:08:39.020 Aidan McRae, Andrew Storrs, Carter Lou McElroy, Erica Ekrem, Aaron Wise,

01:08:46.120 Francesca Glaspell, Hannah Wilton, Melanie Younger, and Suzanne Dollywall.

For The Wild - October 16, 2019

ELSA SEBASTIAN on Loving the Last Stands of the Tongass ⧸141

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