00:00:14.640To make a donation, visit forthewild.world slash donate or find us on Patreon.
00:00:21.100If you'd like to support us in other ways, consider sharing our episodes through social
00:00:25.480media or leaving us a review wherever you listen to the podcast.
00:00:30.000Hey, For the Wild community, it's Ayanna here. We are getting so close to reaching our goal of 2,000 Patreon subscribers per month. If you'd like to be a part of keeping the podcast going, head over to Patreon and sign up or donate through our website. We really need you to continue this work. Thanks so much.
00:00:49.720Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today I'm speaking with Juliana
00:00:58.860Furci. And the time of decomposition cannot be measured easily in chronological time. It does
00:01:07.180take us back to the divine time or the time of each process. Juliana Furci is foundress and
00:01:15.880the CEO of the Fungi Foundation, the first international nonprofit dedicated to fungi
00:01:21.940and founded in Chile. She is a Harvard University associate, co-chair of the IUCN Fungal Conservation
00:01:29.100Committee, and curator of the FFCL Fungarium. Juliana is the author of both volumes of
00:01:36.060The Field Guide to Chilean Fungi, and co-author of several titles, including The First State
00:01:42.000of the World's Fungi by Royal Botanic Gardens Q and the book Fantastic Fungi. She's also the
00:01:48.920first female mycologist in Chile. For more information about her work, visit www.ffungi.org.
00:02:00.280Well, Juliana, I am so darn excited to be having this conversation with you.
00:02:06.160just your knowledge and your spirit and your energy that you bring to this work into this
00:02:12.320world is so beautiful and just thank you so much for being with us today thank you very much for
00:02:19.280this invitation i'd like to begin our conversation by asking you about your research on the ancestral
00:02:26.940uses of fungi you know so often mushrooms and fungi are pitched as being at the forefront of
00:02:33.440innovation, whether they're being used to create vegan leather or pharmaceuticals or
00:02:38.860being incorporated into various biotechnology products. But I've heard you allude to the fact
00:02:46.140that this fixation on innovation obscures our ancestral relationship to fungi. So can you speak
00:02:53.400to the importance of grounding in our ancestral history amidst this period of intense commodification
00:03:00.360of fungi and mushrooms? Well, that's such an interesting question. And thank you for the
00:03:06.400opportunity to talk about this. We have, as humanity, culturally co-evolved with fungi.
00:03:13.960And wherever we look on earth and every civilization that we look into, we see uses of
00:03:22.940fungi being apparent either for feeding healing clothing and so much more weaving dyeing and
00:03:35.200through the fungi foundation program called elders what we're doing is that we are documenting every
00:03:44.100known use of fungi that has been either published in peer-reviewed science in general publications
00:03:53.600or that have been communicated in oral history. So the ancestral and traditional uses of fungi
00:04:01.360around the world have been a focus of ours for a very long time. The nature-based solutions that
00:04:10.400fungi hold are overwhelming. And they're not new discoveries. They are ancient uses
00:04:18.220in this cultural co-evolution that we must go back to.
00:04:24.820Yeah, I'm totally with you there. And thinking about this ancestral relationship,
00:04:32.840I'm curious to venture into conversation around the right to medicine and how capitalism has
00:04:39.940corrupted this right. And this conversation is so complex because on the one hand, we know that
00:04:46.860medicinal mushrooms are helpful in treating mental illness and are drawn upon as allies for immune
00:04:52.940digestion, detox, and stress support. But on the other hand, many in the radical mycology community
00:05:01.100have pointed out that this medicine has at once become both a tourist attraction and a targeted
00:05:07.780resource for large scale companies throughout the world via the branding of medicinal mushrooms as a
00:05:13.760you know top food trend so i'd like to ask you what you think it could look like to approach
00:05:20.700our right to medicine and well-being via mushrooms without giving into irresponsible
00:05:27.140capitalism consumption so almost everybody has access to medicinal mushrooms and medicinal
00:05:37.460fungi in their neighborhoods on our trees wherever you are in the world on grasslands
00:05:44.400in mountains in coastal areas there are fungi that have the ability to heal you in some manner
00:05:52.900we do not need to be buying antibiotics for example in a pharmacy and from a pharmaceutical
00:06:03.960company, we do not need to be purchasing sunblock. We do not need to be treating ear infections with
00:06:15.240compounds we don't even know where they originate from. We have, as a species,
00:06:23.200co-evolved culturally with several species of fungi that have the ability to heal us
00:06:29.620in all of our neighborhoods. So there are cosmopolitan species of fungi that can do for
00:06:37.100you what companies promote only they can do for you. And we all have the right to know that the
00:06:46.160compounds that are being sold to us as unique are actually derived from species that are found in
00:06:52.740nature, you know, in your backyard many times. So fungi really do come to show us that we can be
00:07:02.460self-sufficient from a medicinal point of view to a very large extent through species that we find
00:07:09.600even on rotting wood. There are species of fungi that have culturally co-evolved with humanity
00:07:17.000to such an extent that the uses, the known uses in Africa of certain species are the same known
00:07:27.660uses in Australasia and are also the same known uses in South America or in North America. So
00:07:36.540there really has been this cultural co-evolution that pharmaceuticals claim to be discoveries of
00:07:45.700their own. And it's an insult, and it's unjust to fungi.
00:07:53.680Q's State of the World's Plants and Fungi Report announced that in 2019 alone, nearly 2,000 species
00:08:02.300of fungi were scientifically named for the first time, which is such a small recognition when we
00:08:09.740think about how it's estimated that the true biodiversity of fungi is somewhere around
00:08:14.420one to six million species. Yet as we find ourselves awakening to fungal diversity,
00:08:20.880we're also experiencing tremendous ecological loss through logging, monocropping, and forest
00:08:28.240thinning, all of which puts fungi at risk. So can you share with us the status of fungi and
00:08:35.340the importance of looking for previously unrecognized fungi, not solely for scientific
00:08:40.780acquisition, but so that these species and the ecosystem they are part of can be protected?
00:08:47.800That's such a pertinent question. So last week, just as an example of what we're talking about,
00:08:55.700last week, I finally coincided with a fungus that I had been looking for for 20 years,
00:09:03.280which is a species called Gastroboletus valdivianus.
00:09:08.840It's an endangered species, endangered under IUCN criteria
00:09:14.400in the global fungal red list and also in the Chilean national red list.
00:09:21.060And it's only been collected three times, once in 1974 and twice in 2006.
00:09:28.440Now, after searching and searching and searching
00:09:31.620and going to those locations and seeing that the native forest where that fungus was found,
00:09:38.980where it grew, had been logged in some cases and replaced with pine plantations.
00:09:46.520You know, it took me 20 years to find it again.
00:09:49.600Last week, I was walking, you know, behind a housing development
00:09:54.360and in a little patch of native forest.
00:09:58.220And I coincided with Gastrobolitas valeniana.
00:10:01.620for the first time, the fourth known collection of the fungus, eight meters away from pine and
00:10:08.660eucalypt plantations. And while I was collecting that fungus, I could hear the machinery of another
00:10:16.300housing development, you know, just a few meters away. So the threat of habitat loss is as real
00:10:25.740as that this vivid you know account just happening a few few days ago we are losing species by the
00:10:35.500minute habitat loss habitat fragmentation as well as climate change nitrogen enrichment overuse of
00:10:45.040pesticides and fungicides are making us lose species before we even find them in some cases
00:10:52.680And these species not only hold keys to human health, but, for example, in the case of gastroboletus,
00:11:01.360by Livianus, found last week, I could not believe the number of insect larvae that were inside the fungus.
00:11:09.200When I collected the fungus, centipedes came out, you know, there were millipedes, larvae of flies,
00:11:18.140there were ants on the fungus you know enough that you know I brought some home to rear those
00:11:24.520larvae but what was evident was that the fungus itself was a whole ecosystem just fundamental
00:11:33.120food and brooding grounds for a number of insects and when we lose the fungus those
00:11:41.080insects lose their habitat and in some cases they only grow on these fungi so the real question is
00:11:51.000you know what is a species and what fungi teach us is that an individual doesn't exist
00:11:58.000no species lives alone and disconnected from others we are all interconnected with with other
00:12:07.120organisms from other kingdoms and when we lose one species we're not losing an individual we're
00:12:16.920losing an ecosystem that is so deep and beautiful and a scary you know a little bit yeah not a
00:12:27.720little bit like very very worrisome not that i didn't know that things were connected but
00:12:33.320it's a really important reminder for us and the last I heard the global market for mushrooms was
00:12:41.160estimated to be over 40 billion dollars a year but even separate from this global exchange we've
00:12:47.980seen the growth of mushroom foraging on a smaller scale as well and oftentimes this contributes to
00:12:54.680over harvesting so I wonder if you could speak about the risks of foraging and over harvesting
00:13:00.740especially in context to our previous conversation on ancestral uses of mushrooms?
00:13:07.580Ancestrally, most cultures have associated the harvesting or collection of fungi, plants,
00:13:17.940and animals to a sacred activity. It's a sacred activity by which you ask for permission,
00:13:24.800you thank, you appreciate very deliberately. What we're seeing today is a fever to extract
00:13:36.300the bounty of a harvest independent of our needs. Ancestrally, you only take what you are going to
00:13:49.080use you only take with permission what you need to feed your family to heal your heal your family
00:13:57.480to clothe your family and the commercialization would be through swapping we call trueque
00:14:06.260in spanish on a very small scale what is extremely worrisome today is this notion that
00:14:15.800you need to take before another does and therefore you take everything that you see
00:14:22.080you never stop to ask permission you never dwell on the existence of the species you're taking
00:14:30.580or that you're taking from we never stop to say thank you we don't stop to appreciate
00:14:39.160And that's driving a very dangerous fever and bounty hunt of a renewable species, a renewable being, a reproducing being, and really driving it to the point of not being able to reproduce or survive.
00:15:04.160and this happens you know in different ways it's it's very important to keep in mind that fungi
00:15:13.420are organisms that form their own kingdom or queendom as i like to call them such as plants
00:15:22.700are and animals are also organisms that form their own kingdoms or queendoms and when we talk about
00:15:30.580fungi we're using a name that includes yeasts molds lichens mushrooms conchs and other organisms
00:15:42.800just as when we say animals we're talking about insects mammals amphibians you know invertebrates
00:15:51.540you can you can separate this large kingdom and so or queendom when we talk about fungi
00:15:58.200and over harvesting the first step which is missing from the knowledge of many harvesters
00:16:07.160is the life cycle of the organism that we are looking for and that we are taking from
00:16:12.480there are some species for example chaga that grow on trees and that are you know a whole just
00:16:21.040one individual per tree and if you're taking everything you see you're really not leaving
00:16:27.100any of that individual to reproduce sexually. There are other species like turkey tail,
00:16:34.180where also by taking everything you find on a log, you're stopping that species from reproducing
00:16:46.580or that individual from reproducing sexually. And there are other species of edible fungi,
00:16:54.320like, for example, chanterelles or, let's say, morels,
00:16:58.660that they're not very closely related,
00:17:01.320but you normally, you're taking these spore-producing bodies for food,
00:17:09.560but the mycelium below has the ability to reproduce asexually
00:17:16.320and to produce more sexual reproductive organs, you know, bodies.
00:17:21.620so there's a difference when you're harvesting polypores to when you're harvesting a fleshy
00:17:27.520mushroom as to the impact you're having when you take everything you see that's what I want to say
00:17:33.460taking everything you see is never good practice in any area of life less so with mushroom
00:17:42.840harvesting you have to leave not only for others but also for the animals that depend on them
00:17:51.480also for the plants that depend on them and some for them to reproduce sexually as well
00:17:57.900so really greed is driving over harvesting i would say and it's extremely detrimental to
00:18:06.420the ecosystems that fungi are and to anybody who who wants to use them or has to use them
00:18:51.480Yes, thank you so much for sharing that with us.
00:19:19.640And I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but I used to be a commercial mushroom hunter for a little bit of time and it was really my, goodness, how do I say it?
00:19:32.040It was like the Pandora's box of falling in love with the forest because I was able to
00:19:37.860be in the forest all the time and I was exploring different areas and I was really firsthand
00:19:44.240experiencing old growth forest versus second growth versus monocropped forest and what
00:19:51.220logging was or how logging was impacting not just the visual aesthetic of the forest, not
00:19:59.220just the ecological damage of the forest but also the feeling and the spirit of the forest
00:20:05.380and I also saw so many groups of commercial harvesters just go in and clean the forest
00:20:12.800floor of mushrooms like really taking everything they saw and so you could just imagine
00:20:18.100if I was taking most of what I saw although I you know even at that time I didn't know much
00:20:24.220but I knew not to do that but I would come upon places where for instance with Matsutakis I could
00:20:30.420see all the holes of where they were taken and so it was a really big eye opener and I ceased to
00:20:39.520continue commercial hunting because I started to understand that this greed was damaging the forest
00:20:49.060And it was really a deep realization for me and a little bit sad because I didn't know
00:20:54.420how to be in right relationship with fungi at the time, but I knew that something wasn't
00:21:12.340And one thing I do want to mention too about logging, for those who don't know this, it's
00:21:18.220not just that the trees are taken and the soil is disrupted from the machinery and the dragging and
00:21:25.740the road construction and then the sun beating down on the soil drying it out. Of course, just
00:21:31.220the act of logging is detrimental. But I think what many people don't know is all the poisons that
00:21:37.100are sprayed on the understory plants, on the trees that are undesirable, on the fungi. It's like
00:21:43.640being in a cornfield you know it's there's a lot of poisons being used and so i i just felt like i
00:21:51.260wanted to speak to that with you and and then it's the replacement with exotic species that
00:22:00.660bring in a whole other communities of organisms that take over you know native that invade
00:22:09.160into native ecosystems as well i mean here in chile as in other countries of the world in the
00:22:16.220u.s in new zealand in australia you know the beautiful amanita muscaria you know the fly
00:22:22.320agaric soma uh the most you know one of the most important fungi um for humanity
00:22:29.500is a mycorrhizal ectomycorrhizal species with pine with birch with chestnut trees but it's from
00:22:40.420the northern hemisphere and when you know logging companies come to the southern hemisphere clear
00:22:47.660cut our old growth native temperate rainforest spray the floor with those
00:22:54.980prisons and then replace it with exotic pines that come with their own ectomycorrhizae such
00:23:03.340as amanita what we're seeing now is that you can go into native temperate rainforests and find
00:23:10.680amanita muscaria forming symbiosis with native trees now you know it's a beautiful find you
00:23:18.520know it warms your heart if you don't know what you're seeing but when you do know you realize
00:23:23.420that this invasive mushroom you know the fly agaric is taking over the niche of several
00:23:30.620native mushrooms that should be doing the work for the tree and that have been displaced or
00:23:36.840potentially you know evicted from their ecosystems so there there are invasive fungi that come
00:23:44.640as a consequence of logging and and um forestry industries
00:23:49.740oh that's a really good point to bring up and i have thought about the invasive species a bit
00:23:58.720because i see that there are a lot of fungal add-ins to say fertilizers or just different
00:24:09.940products that you can get whether that's for your personal garden or that you can that I know that
00:24:16.260the industry uses in fields or in forest lands and so I wondered about that specifically because in
00:24:24.300some ways I think okay well they're adding these fungal elements and potentially those are helping
00:24:29.900to rebuild soil but if they are not native are they then invasive and are they then creating
00:24:37.260problems down the line that we are not aware of in the moment well you know it's curious and it's
00:24:43.720such a good you know a good query to have but it it's even worse than what some can imagine because
00:24:51.380not only are you being sold these exotic fungal additives but you're also being sold these um
00:25:00.120these fungi that will better your soil whilst you add them, but that have been genetically modified
00:25:08.280to not reproduce. So it actually makes you depend on buying the commercial version of a, you know,
00:25:18.440of a non-reproductive biological product. So, you know, it gets worse. It's like buying a seed
00:25:27.440that will never germinate really wow yeah i oh goodness there's so much in this um because i
00:25:41.780yeah just thinking about the debate between invasive versus native fungi and the implications
00:25:47.180of certain restoration projects even where fungi that are not native to the area are rapidly
00:25:53.100introduced to forest ecosystems and you know i wonder when it is a project for restoration
00:26:01.060and it's not for commercialized monocropping or or cropping of any type are there any times where
00:26:11.980introducing a species that is not native can be helpful are there any instances of that
00:26:19.020The fungi have this fantastic wisdom, and it's evolved into the fact that they are very species specific.
00:26:31.000So many times, as much as we'd want a fungus to establish for a micro restoration project, it simply can't because fungi are specific to their substrate.
00:26:43.740so for example we can find in one area of the world an amazing fungus that that can grow that's
00:26:52.640native to that area that does a great job cleaning up and when we want to take it to another region
00:26:59.600to do the same job it just doesn't establish because its food source isn't there so what
00:27:06.420fungi force us to do with this species specificity is to look for local solutions so there is little
00:27:15.820doubt that the best fungal allies to clean up an area of a given place will be in the funga of
00:27:25.180that place in the fungal diversity of that place and you wouldn't you won't really need to look
00:27:31.300anywhere else because most probably what you find will not establish there and do what you think it
00:27:37.400will so as a as a as a forager you you know that if you're looking for matsutake you look for the
00:27:46.540habitat if you're looking for morels you look for the morel habitat it's not that these species can
00:27:54.440occur just anywhere they're very specific in where they live and the same for restoration
00:28:01.100if you're you know you need a species that is capable of establishing and thriving in the
00:28:07.640habitat that you want to clean up yeah that makes so much sense and if you do want to introduce
00:28:16.480or if projects are saying that they are introducing native species back into
00:28:23.360the space that's been damaged is there a protocol in which to harvest and implement these species
00:28:34.740back in to the ecosystem like is there a way that is is there a way for it to be done in right
00:28:42.380relationship or are there ways that it's done that you don't agree with so pathogenic fungi
00:28:48.720exist all over the world and they are native to several system now the species thrive when there
00:28:58.040when there is an imbalance so if if a place has been for example locked and the floor is full of
00:29:07.660branches leaves you know even you know smaller tree trunks and just everything that has been
00:29:15.100left behind you will see certain species become predominant in that landscape and it's normally
00:29:23.260the species that are suprobic they are recycling the decomposing plant matter that is left behind
00:29:30.860after that impact and so that's you know one way to to look at the abundance of a species in a place
00:29:37.420is through the lens of an imbalance when you have contamination with chemicals that are
00:29:46.000killing the plant matter and it's hard for the fungi to establish there to do their job
00:29:52.100of decomposing to enable recomposition sometimes we need to help the species establish there we
00:29:59.620need to put them back into that system so that they can decompose the plant matter
00:30:04.400We normally do that with either native species of wood decomposers or known, quote unquote, aggressive species of fungi that whose mycelium quickly establishes and whose mycelium can tolerate the chemicals that are found there.
00:30:27.580By excellence, one of the most powerful mycelial powers is held in the oyster mushroom, in Plerotus austriatus, and you can introduce it to certain areas and it will establish up to a point where it has something to eat because it's wood dwelling and a wood decomposal.
00:30:56.440once that wood has been decomposed, the fungus will not thrive as much. However, it will
00:31:03.300sporulate and it will travel, it will move around and establish in other areas and could potentially
00:31:10.960become a pathogen in healthy areas close to where you're cleaning up. So, you know, it's a duality
00:31:18.940that many face and in order to to really overcome that duality and make a decision
00:31:27.760it's important to have a thorough thorough knowledge of the native species that might
00:31:34.000be able to do that same thing that the pleurotus is doing but whose detrimental impact
00:31:42.100would be less because the ecosystems and habitats are used to their presence
00:31:48.260so it's not an easy answer there's a lot to consider well thank you so much for considering
00:31:56.260with me for a bit of time on this very complex topic that I think about all the time with my
00:32:04.320work in conservation restoration of forest lands and it's um it's just something that I
00:32:10.060it just always is with me these questions so I really appreciate working through them a bit with
00:32:15.980you? I have a very, you know, emblematic case of this same dilemma. So Tierra del Fuego is a large
00:32:25.640island shared politically, modernly shared by Argentina and Chile. It's on the southern tip
00:32:33.640of the continent of the Americas, bridging towards Antarctica. And in Tierra del Fuego,
00:32:40.540um there was uh there's a there's a an ecological genocide going on thanks to the introduction of
00:32:50.920beavers many years ago a gentleman decided he was going to farm beavers for the pelt industry so
00:33:00.940for their skins and when his business didn't go well he decided to free them what we have today
00:33:07.580is an invasion that is unprecedented i mean it's just heartbreaking to see these are old growth
00:33:15.660sub-antarctic forests you know trees that can live you know up to 800 a thousand years old
00:33:22.480um suffering from basically being drowned because of the the beaver dance that um that these that
00:33:30.580these animals build and and they have no predator here so nobody nobody um caps the beaver population
00:33:40.800naturally because it's an invasive species working a few years ago measuring what was happening with
00:33:48.780fungal with with fun with fungi there so with richness and abundance of species it was apparent
00:33:54.260that where the beaver dams are the fungal diversity drops drastically like it changes from having
00:34:02.380you know 100 species in um five square meters to one species in five square meters um but the
00:34:11.280abundance of those species is enormous and no because the beavers eat the um the bark of the
00:34:18.520trees, and they used a lot of that material to build their dams, no fungus was establishing
00:34:31.780to be able to decompose the tree trunks so that that energy would be able to recompose
00:34:41.260And so we were looking at different fungal species that were capable of living on these
00:34:45.580hard woods that had no no bark on them and you know really the the realization was we need to
00:34:55.600find the native species that can do that there are exotic species that could do it and they could do
00:35:01.140that today but it means introducing a species of fungus whereas you know we need the time to find
00:35:09.820what native fungus can do this in a more ecologically just way so when faced with that
00:35:19.200duality my choice and my professional choice to the people who had were asking me those questions
00:35:26.180was do not introduce a new species here that could then you know just take over niches that
00:35:33.100other native species hold but rather let's take the time we need to find that native species that
00:35:40.800can establish on these barkless tree trunks wow so interesting so much to take in and
00:35:49.540i think i think it ultimately it takes us back and forward and present to how we relate to time
00:35:59.100the you know the ancient greeks would measure time in two ways the kairos and the chronos
00:36:06.280and the chronos being you know the chronological time that we have adopted with seconds minutes
00:36:12.680you know hours weeks you know years and then kairos which is the divine time or the natural
00:36:20.620time of a process which is different and is not comparable to the chronos to the chronological
00:36:26.720time and you know the time of each process is is is to be respected and the time of decomposition
00:36:37.340cannot be measured easily in chronological time it does take us back to the divine time or the
00:36:45.700time of each process wow that is so beautiful and so deep to hear that and that just took me
00:36:56.220in so many places in my mind so thank you for bringing that up because I think that's something
00:37:01.280that's often overlooked especially since we live in a culture that is in so many ways pressured by
00:37:10.400instant gratification and the need to see change and movement and results and solutions in a very
00:37:21.300quick timeframe that doesn't actually make sense most of the time. And this kind of is making me
00:37:29.420think about that alongside others, you've pointed out the critical role of the fungi queendom
00:37:36.980and the role that it can play in response to biodiversity loss and climate change. And
00:37:42.100just makes me think of this deep time. And it reminds me of these ancient ecosystems and how
00:37:48.840fungal diversity played a role in them, really shaping evolutionary history, which is really
00:37:56.100to say that I'm thinking about fungi's relationship with the earth outside of our use of fungi or
00:38:02.220even our relationship with them. So I guess my question is, how can fungi assist with ecological
00:38:09.060regeneration for the sake of the planet and our more than human kin, if left alone, especially?
00:38:15.520well you can't have any regeneration without the fungi it's that simple i mean it's sort of you
00:38:23.320know it's more basal nothing can recompose without fungi that are decomposing energy is not lost
00:38:32.660energy is transformed and the organisms that transform energy are the fungi it's impossible
00:38:39.840to look at regeneration without looking at decomposition and decomposition doesn't exist
00:38:48.200without fungi oh yeah absolutely um i mean it's really very i mean it sounds very simple and what
00:38:58.000i'm going to say is it's very simple um but it really is as simple as that we cannot um heal
00:39:05.900our planet without fungi no organism in the terrestrial habitat can live without the fungi
00:39:12.160not not one of them plants cannot live outside of water without the fungi that are in or on its roots
00:39:18.720and you know when when life emerged from an aquatic ecosystem onto terrestrial landscapes
00:39:26.540the only reason that that the first life forms established were because of teaming up in a
00:39:33.120symbiosis with fungi so once again what fungi are saying is that an individual doesn't exist
00:39:38.540every time we use the word ecosystem we're talking about fungi every time we talk about
00:39:44.780rewilding we're talking about fungi and you know in to the eyes of a mycologist you know we see a
00:39:52.500tree as a photosynthetic symbiont of a fungus or of many fungi we don't see it the other way around
00:39:58.640It all has to do with your point of view. Some people say, oh, you know, ectomycorrhizal fungi allow plants to live. Well, no, it's that plant that's allowing the fungus to live. It also could be.
00:40:12.040So really here, there is a very fundamental and basal acknowledgement that needs to be made tangible in language, in legislation, in policy in general, that acknowledges that fungi are the firmament of all terrestrial ecosystems, every single one of them.
00:41:12.040well that's a perfect transition to my next question which is that chile became the first
00:41:32.520country in the world to include fungi and environmental legislation and i understand
00:41:37.680And your organization, Fungi Foundation, played a huge role in pushing for this protection.
00:41:43.680So I'd love if you could share with us the importance of these legal protections and how this process unfurled.
00:41:51.400Yeah, it was definitely our doing in triggering it.
00:41:55.680So this was over a decade ago when Chile opened up its environmental legislation.
00:42:02.860So it's a constitutional law that regulates over all the environment.
00:42:09.020It was opened up for different reasons.
00:42:11.560There were articles that were under revision.
00:42:14.420And it presented an opportunity to propose or to work around the contents of that legislation.
00:42:25.340And we saw the opportunity to work together to collaborate with a network of organizations to push for Chile to adopt a recommendation made by IUCN and by the Convention on Biodiversity to include fungi in its conservation planning and biodiversity plans.
00:42:51.860So because Chile had had such a bad grade in environmental issues, we went to the Ministry of the Environment and presented them with an opportunity to become the champions of the inclusion of this kingdom in its legislation.
00:43:13.000and we proved to them that we presented and then proved to them that it wasn't expensive to do
00:43:21.520and that really if we were talking about an ecosystemic approach to nature this was the
00:43:28.860only way to do it and after two years of working to get both you know the chamber of deputies and
00:43:38.680the senate and the ministries to understand this issue you know in a very strategic way
00:43:44.520the law was finally passed with the inclusion of fungi in two paragraphs of the you know of one
00:43:52.840article of this legislation this bill where it establishes that the environmental impact
00:44:00.360assessment system must now also look at the impact of fungi when given an environmental permit
00:44:08.300that fungi need to be included in the species inventory of the country
00:44:15.720and that public information systems for fungi needed to be put in place
00:44:23.500What that really translated into was that if you are applying for a permit
00:44:29.920to build a road, to build a dam, to do a housing development,
00:44:33.960you not only have to assess the impact of your project on fauna and flora but also on the funga
00:44:43.060the funga is the fungal diversity of a given place and we're the only country in the world
00:44:49.460where the impact on fungi is assessed prior to giving a permit to impact that ecosystem or that
00:44:59.840territory. And, you know, it's funny that we're talking today, nothing is a coincidence, but I
00:45:06.960was mentioning Gastrobellitus vaivianus, which is this species that I finally coincided with after
00:45:13.50020 years of trying to coincide with it, this endangered species of fungus.
00:45:20.200that you know today there was a news piece that was published around the discovery of this species
00:45:31.360that hadn't been seen for 15 years and I immediately got an email from the the regional
00:45:38.600environment minister of the region where I found the fungus saying this is super important to us
00:45:46.440We do not want housing developments to go on in the habitat where this fungus was found.0.97
00:45:53.660So really, it's a legislation that gives us a tool, a conservation tool, to protect ecosystems, vulnerable ecosystems, old ecosystems, unique ecosystems from the hand of men and women.
00:46:12.060and it's proving to be quite effective that is so exciting that is really really amazing to hear0.96
00:46:21.720about and going back to going back to what you asked about these ancient ecosystems
00:46:27.960it's it's it's important to keep in mind that there are species of fungi that only grow on
00:46:33.440trees that are older than 400 years old i mean fungi are so species specific that even you know
00:46:40.280the age of the tree is fundamental to um the existence to the reproduction of a fungal species
00:46:48.600so you know loggers won't log trees that are extremely old because they're all rotten inside
00:46:56.960well what is that that's a fungus that's living there a fungus that doesn't live on younger trees
00:47:02.120sometimes um you know and and they the old trees are mostly cut to be away from medium-sized trees
00:47:10.340they're just discarded you know thousands of years this ancient being with its ancient beings inside
00:47:18.220and you know included are just discarded to get to you know this this bounty you know of
00:47:26.280of utilitarian you know wood that actually probably isn't even as useful as they think so
00:47:32.480you know so um it went once logged but what i mean is that there are fungal reasons to protect
00:47:40.200ancient trees and another very important project of the fungi foundation in that in our conservation
00:47:46.500program is the development of easy access conservation tools based on fungi that can
00:47:54.940give you leverage to protect ancient ecosystems it's so brilliant what you're doing and all the
00:48:03.120folks you work with to have built out this tool or using this tool for conservation and
00:48:11.040i'm just i'm really blown away right now and i'm really grateful that this is a a tool that can be
00:48:19.220And I'm hoping that folks in other places get inspired by what you're doing down in Chile and try to understand how to bring that to more countries and more places so that development doesn't completely destroy these ecosystems that we know is extremely challenging, if not sometimes impossible, to support them to return to what they were before the destruction came for them.
00:48:47.360It's absolutely impossible. It's absolutely, I mean, you cannot compensate for the age of a tree. And, you know, in the Pacific Northwest and, you know, the Pacific coast of Canada, my dear friend and brother, Paul Stamets, he was one of the first people who used the fungal leverage to protect old forests.
00:49:16.820He discovered, you know, the vomitoxis officinalis, the agaricon, the agaricon fungus had very powerful antiviral compounds.
00:49:27.240Now, those fungi only grow on ancient trees.
00:49:31.280And he made it a matter of national defense in the U.S. to protect the forest,
00:49:37.000because on those old trees grew an old fungus that had antivirals found nowhere else in nature.
00:49:44.320so you know this is something that the future of old forests in my view has a chance looking at
00:49:55.240the fungal reasons to protect them and i hope that goes more mainstream i do too and yeah i
00:50:06.420just want to jump back to the fungal diseases for a moment and i'd also like to ask about
00:50:14.200the recent increase in fungal diseases. And I know you touched on this, but specifically,
00:50:19.580how is climate change contributing to the rise of fungal pathogens that target crops
00:50:24.660or other species? And which fungal diseases pose the greatest threat to global or even local
00:50:31.400ecosystems? I think that there are two ways of looking at this. I mean, by looking at the
00:50:37.380proliferation of a fungal species that might be detrimental to a plant or an animal, it doesn't
00:50:43.720mean that the fungus is causing that detriment. Fungi, as are plants and animals, are opportunistic
00:50:51.960organisms. And where there is an imbalance, they will thrive. Now, there are two ways of looking at
00:50:58.120that thrive. One is that they are causing the problem. And another is that they're,
00:51:06.120quote unquote, solving a problem. Because if through climate change, several plants are dying,
00:51:12.700um what the fungi is doing there is decomposing to enable recomposition in some cases they're not
00:51:19.280just you know this intelligent being that's out to kill all the trees no they are being
00:51:25.920opportunistic opportunistic at this available energy that is becoming available because of
00:51:33.040a larger imbalance in the system so i'm always very weird you know very careful when talking
00:51:40.880about fungal pathogens because in my view most of the cases are fungi that are that are making the
00:51:51.240most of a larger imbalance that they have not caused it's like when you look at wheat lagoche
00:51:57.380and corn right it's incredible that most of the countries in the world are spraying their corn
00:52:07.040and maize to get rid of pathogens that it's actually an edible species that is extremely
00:52:12.780has a lot of nutrition so so it's sort of you know what came first the chicken or the egg
00:52:20.060you know what came first was it the was it this beautiful pristine you know unspotted
00:52:28.540cob, you know, of corn? Or is it this symbiotic organism with a fungus that can also feed you
00:52:38.480as well as the corn or, you know, with a balanced cycle? I think there's a misconception of what
00:52:45.580health is in an ecosystem. Health is not necessarily everybody living happily forever
00:52:52.420after health has imperfections in an ecosystem it has decomposition it has transitioning of
00:53:02.920one life form to another fungi are the ones that normally do that and they are stigmatized for
00:53:09.740doing so but in a healthy ecosystem there is abundant decomposition you know it's not it's
00:53:16.540not zero decomposition it's important to let things rot yeah well thank you for yeah for um
00:53:29.600bringing us to that well i wouldn't say conclusion but just grounding us in that reality and yeah i
00:53:39.300would like to transition now our conversation to discuss the patriarchal undertones of the field
00:53:44.780of mycology and so you know blatantly speaking uh the mycological world or at least in the so-called
00:54:01.780west is dominated by a lot of older white men and there's a lot of ego there as well and so
00:54:08.940I wonder if you could share your experiences working in the field, as well as the importance of dismantling the patriarchal Eurocentric structure, so that mycology may be more welcoming to a more diverse audience.
00:54:29.180I don't know if I'm laughing out of nerve or just how ridiculous it really is in many places.
00:54:37.880I think that, I mean, the origin of this comes from, you know, the late 17th century, you know, European takeover of, you know, professions, quote unquote professions, where paganism was driven out.
00:54:56.500you know, the church overtook, you know, the natural sciences, you know, anybody who practiced
00:55:03.600medicine outside of the accepted, you know, establishment, all male was a witch and had to0.96
00:55:12.060be burned. And that has really lived on fiercely in the natural sciences. It was only really in the
00:55:23.120in the early 19th century that some females in this quote-unquote western world were even allowed
00:55:33.600to go to secondary school and it was really in just the late 19th century where females were
00:55:43.600allowed women were allowed to um go to university and work in research so it's it's it's a dramatic
00:55:54.040scenario of a whole science that has either been um dominated by um males or where there's been
00:56:07.100a domination by female researchers but that have never been acknowledged because they're women and
00:56:13.580therefore men have been acknowledged for their work you know and that's not very hard to find
00:56:18.800even you know um Fanny Hess who was a brilliant microbiologist she invented um she discovered um
00:56:28.440the the agar gel to you know to be able to cultivate microorganisms but it was you know0.97
00:56:36.440her boss who took the credit for it because you know she was just this woman working in the lab
00:56:41.440She wasn't anybody to be attributed with that discovery.
00:56:47.360And today, thankfully, less and less we're seeing this happen.
00:56:52.920Although studying in a university is still quite an elite opportunity,
00:56:58.980and it has to be said, I mean, you need quite a lot of money
00:57:02.080to be able to go to university still in most countries of the world.
00:57:05.440um there the there's been only very recently a drive for more inclusion in um in access to
00:57:17.280to undergraduate and graduate studies um there's a difference in different regions while in um1.00
00:57:26.860you know in south america for example um there are many many female mycologists and there are1.00
00:57:35.200many generations of women working in mycology but what's traditionally happened is that the women1.00
00:57:42.220have been excluded from field activity and left more in the lab so women because they can do the0.93
00:57:49.780delicate job of slicing specimens or you know because they need to be taking care either of
00:57:57.260their parents or of their children and they or of their husband so they need to you know have like
00:58:03.000a nine to five job and field mycology this you know treacherous rugged dirty job where you're1.00
00:58:10.500working for you know 20 hours a day and walking for weeks was deemed as unfit for a woman1.00
00:58:18.560not elegant at all dangerous and taking a woman to neglect her family so that was you know that's
00:58:28.460only just starting to change when I started working in field mycology 23 years ago I remember
00:58:36.120people saying oh and um you know how do you do it you know where do you get changed in the field
00:58:43.760I would just be looking at them thinking is this a joke then questions when I was you know married
00:58:50.680and a mother like who looks after your son while you're out in the field I would be thinking
00:58:57.540i wonder if they ask my husband who's looking after his son when he's working you know no way
00:59:04.580i mean this is just a very gender biased question or um you know how you who's who's staying at home
00:59:13.780who's looking after your house when you're you know in the field for a month well you know nobody
00:59:20.240i live with somebody else and he can do that too but all this was unthinkable even 20 years ago
00:59:27.380I got so many insinuations that I was neglecting my son because I was in the field for two weeks
00:59:35.680straight I was even told by several people to consider the damage that would bring to my boy
00:59:41.920of his mom not being around every year in four I mean it gets to that level
00:59:47.460it you know that's why I laugh because you either laugh or you cry and you get really angry0.97
00:59:54.320um but it's still like that there's still this vision that the woman has full responsibility0.94
01:00:01.020of the family that the field and the forest is not a place that's apt for decent women to be
01:00:10.140spending full time in it's just infuriating sorry yeah i can rant on about that um
01:00:18.100Yeah, but now, you know, more and more, there's a global movement of inclusiveness, gender inclusiveness, racial inclusiveness.
01:00:28.100Thankfully, thankfully, that's all I can say.
01:00:32.100I unfortunately got to live through a lot of heavy, unfair insinuations about being a mother and working in the field.
01:00:43.100And it got to the point where even when I met Jane Goodall, and she said to me, we were talking about, you know, being a field scientist and having a small child.
01:00:54.960And she said to me, don't stop. Don't stop. You know, she said, you are with mushrooms where I was with the chimps.
01:01:02.480You know, we do it with the children. Don't stop.
01:01:07.340And I listened to her and she would even have to put her son in a cage so the chimps wouldn't harm her.
01:01:13.100harm him you know I haven't had to cage my son but I have had to leave him sometimes for you know
01:01:18.880for five weeks to go and explore an area I don't think that um that deems us as being bad mothers
01:01:26.320at all yeah well thank you so much for sharing your personal experience with this and
01:01:36.440I really hear you I definitely have gotten some words around my lifestyle and that I've chosen
01:01:47.320to be in the forest and uh just the way that I have yeah chosen to spend my time and that
01:01:57.680there's definitely segments of this dominant culture that really looks down upon that
01:02:04.160sends a lot of guilt trips my way makes me feel like I'm making the wrong decisions that it's not
01:02:10.200worthy it's not the most valuable it's not what I should be doing I'm going to waste my life
01:02:14.680in the forest you know like all sorts of stuff that it's it's strange it's really it's strange
01:02:24.940this you know clearly it's ingrained in the people who are telling us these things and telling so
01:02:31.740many folks that how they're choosing to be in deep relationship with the land and is not it's
01:02:39.980undesirable I guess and for me it's almost made me feel like I'm an undesirable woman and it's just
01:02:46.240so strange I'm like wow this is really odd that I am being made to feel that my womanhood is in
01:02:56.200question because I've chosen to be in the woods with a lifestyle that isn't what is conventional
01:03:04.540and so I just wanted to say that to share with you in that frustration and also what are we to
01:03:14.600do but say well that's your opinion but you know the mushrooms are calm if they only knew how
01:03:22.560amazing life is you know just oh yeah you're missing the whole thing i chuckle inside most
01:03:30.160of the time yeah i i mean my mother was a political prisoner here for the coup in chile she was you
01:03:37.560know uh imprisoned and tortured for a year and then an exile and a refugee and and i've had you
01:03:43.400know the upbringing enough to be able to chuckle inside and say you know what just like it's just
01:03:50.660your convictions are your convictions and there is nothing more valuable to any individual than
01:03:56.840respectfully having a conviction and my mother always told me that you know stick to your guns
01:04:04.200and you don't have to please everybody and there is really there are only very few counted times
01:04:14.260where it's worth even explaining so I just take it for that and she would say take it with a pinch
01:04:20.920of salt she would say just let them say what they want to say you know you know and it's been the
01:04:27.960best the best teaching yeah yeah I'm just thinking about that I I know so many of our listeners have
01:04:35.260been um well will be touched by this conversation and have been touched by
01:04:41.580fungi's demonstration of interspecies companionship, which I think is something
01:04:47.640we're speaking to. And just their brilliant response to surrounding contamination or simply
01:04:55.440the aesthetic of wonder or the beauty of coming across wild mushrooms and the spiritual connection
01:05:02.320I know that it's brought for me. So as we come to a close, I wonder if you could share some of
01:05:08.340the lessons Fungi have taught you about our responsibility to one another and to the earth
01:05:14.500as we unmap the harmful structures of our world? I think one of the most powerful lessons I've
01:05:22.100learned from Fungi is that death doesn't exist, that the destruction of a physical life form
01:05:29.320is not the end of the energy and that a soul's passing is not an end um i think that that that
01:05:38.920for me is the continuum funjay have taught me that that there is a continuum that transcends
01:05:47.960most existences and that's i think one of the biggest lessons apart from the the lesson that
01:05:57.400many are only just learning that everything is connected and that really um an individual doesn't
01:06:05.060exist um i think that that that concept of death being a beginning and not an end
01:06:14.400decomposition for recomposition really recomposition is has to do with regeneration
01:06:21.020has really led me to believe that we have to let things rot
01:06:27.000and that rotten mould are the new rock and roll.