00:04:06.720So in the past couple of years, we have been overwhelmed
00:04:11.100by an onslaught of proposed or partially completed fossil fuel projects
00:04:16.160across Turtle Island, from Keystone, Excel, DAPL,
00:04:20.400the Bayou Bridge Pipeline, Line 3, and the Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain Pipeline, and that's just
00:04:26.120to name a few. I imagine some of our listeners may be unfamiliar with the specifics of corporate
00:04:32.220extraction and industry dynamics in Canada in relationship to First Nations people. So I'd love
00:04:38.840if you could begin by sharing with us what has been occurring in your territory most recently
00:04:44.840and the status of petro-colonialism across Canada more broadly?
00:04:51.120Okay, so those are kind of big questions.
00:04:55.140I'm located in Treaty 4, which is exactly, I would say I live seven hours north of Standing Rock.
00:05:02.860So we're in Treaty 4, we have the northern part of the Balkan deposit.
00:05:08.780So in the southern part of our territory, you'll see a lot of oil wells,
00:05:12.340You'll see some fracking towers. It's not quite as extensive as the development on the North
00:05:19.140Dakota side, but because it's, of course, like a section of that deposit, but that's a big chunk
00:05:24.820of the development in the southern part of our region. Secondarily to that is there's, we've been
00:05:29.320doing a lot of coal mining since the 1800s. And of course, we have industrial farming and small
00:05:35.060farming. Those are normal things that exist around here since settlement occurred, because of course,
00:05:40.360the prairie region. Some other things that exist in our territory, we have quite a few potash
00:05:46.300deposits. We have one of the biggest ones in North America that exists here, and it's a big,
00:05:50.120giant vein. Luckily for us, potash hasn't gone up in price, so we're not seeing the expansion
00:05:56.400of these mines, but it's something that really has an impact on the water table here. And then
00:06:01.720north of us, of course, we have another part of Saskatchewan in Treaty 6 territory and further
00:06:07.080north is a giant uranium deposit. It's one of the biggest ones in the globe that's being developed
00:06:13.600right now and has been for several years. And we also have tar sands. That's one of the fun things
00:06:18.840that people don't realize is that the tar sands deposit right now, for the most part, is being
00:06:23.320developed and extracted from Alberta, but the deposit itself actually stretches all the way to
00:06:28.520Manitoba. I think the challenge with the companies is that they don't have the technology to extract
00:06:34.740it so deeply. I think the other thing that we have is a lot of forestry and other kinds of mining
00:06:39.940further north, not necessarily in this Treaty 4 territory, but in places further north. So there's
00:06:47.060a lot going on in this territory, but I think it's indicative of all the prairie provinces.
00:06:52.840It's very similar, similar kind of development, similar things going on. I think some of the
00:06:58.100major challenges we have, it's just the impact of these kinds of development on our watershed
00:07:03.960being that we're in the prairie provinces that's going to be one of the things that's going to be
00:07:08.120really challenging in the next 20 to 50 years is the impact of climate change in our region and
00:07:14.200what that means for water and i think we're looking at significant and severe drought
00:07:18.660in our territories and you know the fine balance between resource extraction and what we see in
00:07:25.260the future means that we potentially are putting our our ability to have potable drinking water
00:07:31.340at risk if we continue to develop at the same rate that we're we are because we're not getting
00:07:36.860enough snow pack melt there's just not enough feeding into our water system and we're heavily
00:07:42.880dependent on aquifers here and you know when you mix aquifers with mining there's always a chance
00:07:49.540that they're going to get contaminated so you know it's all fine balance in this region about
00:07:54.860all of these different issues. When we start talking about the state of Canada and oil
00:08:01.760development, I don't think a lot has really changed. And I think that's the thing that
00:08:05.660people really need to understand is that Canada has come out on the world stage as being a leader
00:08:10.820in terms of climate change. When Justin Trudeau, our new prime minister, got into power, that's
00:08:17.100one of the things that he created was a new ministry on climate change. And so the government
00:08:22.680moved forward with creating the Pan-Canadian Framework, which is basically Canada's plan
00:08:27.560about how they're going to combat climate change and what are the things that they're going to do
00:08:31.160to mitigate and to adapt to climate change. And so it's really interesting. It's this massive
00:08:35.940document. I've looked at different pieces of it myself, and we've done some research on it.
00:08:40.740But it's really interesting that oil and gas development are not really listed in this
00:08:45.820document. They're kind of left out of the plans about how we're going to combat climate change
00:08:51.600in Canada and it's really interesting that it was kind of left out on purpose or forgotten or
00:08:56.880we don't really know why but I think it just speaks volumes to the fact that this government
00:09:03.020kind of wants to tell us that they're doing all of these things but at the same time we're not
00:09:07.880doing anything to prevent what's creating global climate change and our role in emissions of global
00:09:13.740climate change and I think that's also one of the biggest challenges that we have because
00:09:18.060you know we have traditional oil and gas development like i was talking about the
00:09:22.280balkan deposit you know there's that oil and gas development in the southern part of
00:09:25.940alberta and all across the country but i think what's significant is also tar sands and so when
00:09:30.880you combine all those things together we're actually emitting a lot into the global atmosphere
00:09:36.240in terms of co2 emissions and so we're going way over the the kyoto agreements and all these other
00:09:43.920things that Canada has said that we're going to do. Unfortunately, we can't if we're continuing
00:09:48.600to develop at the rate we are. And I think that's also the challenge for a lot of people doing work
00:09:53.640around climate in Canada is really trying to hold the government accountable. One of the things
00:09:58.580that Saskatchewan, specifically the province that I live in, has been doing is fighting against
00:10:04.120creating a carbon tax. And so, you know, the government has been moving ahead with these
00:10:09.180at different projects that they're doing to mitigate climate change and this is one of them
00:10:14.140is creating a monetary system to tax emitters so saskatchewan definitely has fought against that
00:10:21.420not all the provinces have some of them are really excited about this program i think it's
00:10:25.980just really challenging when we're trying to talk about national solutions because we need them
00:10:31.100and we need to uphold the agreements that we've we've made internationally but then when you start
00:10:36.060looking at the provinces you know canada bought out a pipeline project that didn't make any sense
00:10:42.700the companies couldn't make a goal of it and so can decide to buy it and i think these are
00:10:47.580also the challenges that we have in canada again going back to this idea that we look great on
00:10:53.500the international stage in terms of our climate agreements and all the other things that we're
00:10:58.140saying and doing however when it comes down to it we're not essentially you know we're more
00:11:03.740part of the problem, then we are part of solving the problem. I think that's also the challenge.
00:11:08.460Just, I believe, yesterday and over the weekend, Kanahus Manuel, one of the leaders of the tiny
00:11:14.280house movement in BC, just stopped the Kinder Morgan pipeline. They set up a camp and have
00:11:20.200been developing tiny houses for quite a while, and I'm sure you could talk to her yourself, but
00:11:23.940her whole group was arrested this weekend for being in a public place, which they never signed
00:11:30.920treaties, they never made any agreements in their territory with the government or with
00:11:34.760British Columbia as a province. So technically, the land is still held by the Sikwekwep people.
00:11:42.360And so I think that's just indicate of the way Canada treats its Indigenous people. You know,
00:11:48.600in our country, for the last few years, we've had the truth and reconciliation recommendations,
00:11:53.800and there's been this whole movement around reconciliation and this idea of what that
00:11:59.860would look like between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people in Canada. I think the
00:12:04.960biggest challenge to that, though, is just really, if we're going to meet this idea and try and move
00:12:11.660towards something that looks like reconciliation, then it means that 98.8% of the land is held
00:12:18.440either by corporations, the Canadian government, or it's held by Crown land or private owners.
00:12:24.240So the 0.2% is held in trust for Indigenous people, right? So we only have access to 0.2%
00:12:32.320of our original land that we agreed to share. In some places, in like Kanahus' case, her people1.00
00:12:38.740didn't make any agreement with the Canadian government, they just took it, right? And they
00:12:42.780believe that they have every right to title to the resources on the land without consulting,
00:12:48.020without working with the people, without even creating any kind of legal instrument. And so
00:12:53.520I think it's really challenging in Canada there's a lot of different things at play
00:12:58.520particularly in British Columbia like I was speaking about Canada who's his people there
00:13:02.820are a lot of people in that region that live in unsucceeded territory where there are no agreements
00:13:07.280but the one thing that I will say that we've been I think very I don't know what the word is but
00:13:14.680we've been able over the last 20 years to move forward with a lot of Supreme Court challenges
00:13:20.500and really holding the Canadian government to account in the Constitution that Canada has.
00:13:27.980It talks, Section 35 talks about the right for Indigenous people to hunt and fish.
00:13:33.580And so we've been using that as a way to challenge the Canadian government
00:13:37.780when they infringe on our treaty rights or on our rights in title,
00:13:40.760as in Kanahus' case, when there is no agreement.
00:13:44.640And so I think these things have been really, really, really instrumental for us in Canada in particular.
00:13:50.500to hold the Canadian government to account but also to hold the companies to account because I think
00:13:54.980we've been moving completely in the opposite direction instead of moving towards our climate
00:14:00.180agreements but also trying to figure out how we're going to transition to a more green environment,
00:14:05.700a more green economy and all these other things. So it's really interesting because I feel like a
00:14:11.060lot of people don't see the lens of what Canada is really like versus what they're actually doing
00:14:14.980on the ground and what they're doing to our people and to our people's rights on a daily basis.
00:14:20.500Hmm. Wow. Thank you so much. You just opened up so many threads that I want to go down. One being, you mentioned the Canada buying out this pipeline. And this past year, the Trudeau administration has revealed its alliance to industry and just blatant disregard of the legal rights of First Nations people.
00:14:44.440Back in June, the Trudeau government announced they would be purchasing the Kinder Morgan
00:14:48.920pipeline for $4.5 billion Canadian dollars with the intention of nationalizing the project
00:14:55.460and expanding it, like you had mentioned.
00:14:57.440Some have suggested that the Trump administration has covertly enabled the actions of Trudeau,
00:15:04.360but I'm curious if you believe Trump has greatly influenced the Trudeau administration
00:15:11.400I think that may be true. But personally, I like to look at things from a historical lens. And to me, the whole reason that the colonial machine was created, regardless of what territory you're in, whether we're talking about Africa or Russia or Asia or South America or North America, was resources.
00:15:35.060People came here for the land, for the fish, for the trees, for whatever made sense at that period in time.
00:15:52.000We have no other viable options in terms of economic development as a country as a whole.
00:15:58.960So I think that's the challenge with the Trudeau government is that I really feel like we haven't been 110% exploring what a transitional economy could look like in Canada.
00:16:09.880I know there's been a lot of movement in the financial sector and a lot of different places all over the globe are researching what this could look like.
00:16:18.400And I think that's the thing that I'm excited about is just the potentiality for our own people to lead a green economy, particularly in this region.
00:16:28.960We're super cold in the wintertime, but we have tons of sunlight.
00:16:33.480We just have a lot of ability to create energy in a much different way and to really think
00:16:38.980about the lens of justice when we start talking about economic and energy justice, right?
00:16:44.500So I think there's a lot of potentiality.
00:16:46.940I just really am critical of this government, but I've also been critical of past governments.
00:16:52.280I really don't feel like Canada is very similar to the U.S. in the fact that we've pretty
00:16:57.260much had a two-party system since the existence of this country and because of that if you if you
00:17:03.340again because i like to look at things from a historical lens um neither of these parties have
00:17:08.860when they've been in power in canada have ever 110 upheld indigenous rights they've never upheld
00:17:15.180treaty rights they've never been champions of our people and they've never worked with us in a
00:17:20.620nation-to-nation relationship in a way that's truly 110 equitable and i think that's the
00:17:27.020the thing that we always remember is that these countries make promises to our people when they're
00:17:33.120in an electoral process, right? The fruits of those labors we don't necessarily always see.
00:17:39.100And I think the challenge with all of this is that Canada, again, is a resource extraction
00:17:42.920colony. They don't have any other viable options in terms of economic development. And I think
00:17:49.760that's the real challenge of our day and age. It's really trying to figure our way out of this mess
00:17:54.920And building the infrastructure and the businesses, whatever models those look like, in communities that will dig our way out of being so dependent on oil and gas development, in particular the tar sands development.
00:18:09.160And I think it's really unfortunate that Kanahus and the communities that she's working with in British Columbia and all across this country have to put themselves in situations where they're being arrested and they have to live in the right of way of a pipeline in order to stop it.
00:18:25.480And that's the unfortunate thing that we're dealing with in Canada.
00:18:29.220I really don't feel like Trump had a lot of influence because the previous government, the same thing, everyone pro-development.
00:18:36.020And when I look at my province here in Saskatchewan, again, a lot of people really believe the rhetoric because there's no other options that have been presented to the general public.
00:18:47.660And I think that's part of the challenge is that we need a new platform.
00:18:53.300We need a new messaging to think about a global transition, about green economies and about really getting off the oil and gas development type of resource extraction economies.
00:19:04.280I really feel like these are old school ways of doing business and we can be innovative and creative and figure our way out of this.
00:19:14.380And I believe there's a lot of people out there doing amazing work.
00:19:18.180It's just that the old school way of thinking about getting rich quick off the oil and gas companies is unfortunate.
00:19:24.900And it's prevalent all across the country, even I would say with a lot of my own people.
00:19:30.000So, you know, there's a lot of challenges.
00:19:31.700And I just think that in the history of this country, that's kind of what it's always been about, is about taking the land and taking the resources and making money off of that for profit.
00:19:43.280And so I don't think that's really changed.
00:20:31.700Here in the United States, although Trump
00:20:59.520is quite outspoken, as a really kind way to put it. Not a lot has changed in my mind either. I
00:21:09.060don't think that all of a sudden now that Trump's in office, policy has really shifted or resource
00:21:14.200extraction has really shifted. I think it has been this way. And it's just more blatant than
00:21:19.480it was before. We don't have as good of a speaker who's getting on the televisions as there was
00:21:26.060before who is as eloquent. So I'm with you there that this is nothing new. And I want to mention
00:21:32.780that here in the United States, the Trump administration has encouraged state-sanctioned
00:21:37.860attacks on environmental activists, as well as the introduction of legislation that seeks to
00:21:43.460criminalize peaceful protest. Since Trump was elected, more than 60 bills have been introduced
00:21:49.260across 31 states that seek to restrict protest. For example, in Colorado, State Senator Jerry
00:21:55.560Sonnenberg proposed a law that would reclassify the obstruction or the obstructing or tampering
00:22:02.100with oil and gas equipment from a misdemeanor to a class six felony, punishable up to 18 months
00:22:08.220behind bars and a fine of up to $100,000. And he isn't the only one. I mean, in October of 2017,
00:22:15.28080 Republicans and four Democrats sent a letter to Attorney General Sessions asking whether activists
00:22:20.940who target energy infrastructure might be considered domestic terrorists,
00:22:26.040arguing that the interference of energy infrastructure poses a, quote,
00:22:30.440threat to human life and appears to be intended to intimidate and coerce policy changes, end quote.
00:22:37.600So it's clear that as the fossil fuel industry struggles to retain its firm grasp,
00:22:44.340the United States government is leading an aggressive campaign to suppress
00:22:48.560Indigenous and environmental movements. So I'm wondering, are policies like this being adopted
00:22:55.500in Canada? And what is the climate around direct action in Canada look like?
00:23:01.080Well, I think two things that I'll say to that. First off, there was a host of legislation that
00:23:07.580was passed before Trudeau got into power with our previous prime minister. And it created a whole
00:23:15.320new secret police, just a lot of things that potentially violate human rights and a gamut
00:23:22.880of other things. And so my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this legislation
00:23:28.860still stands. It hasn't been thrown out. It's still kind of in the mix. I think the thing to
00:23:34.700think about, and I think what's really interesting is that, you know, Standing Rock was this moment,
00:23:39.460particularly in the U.S., where people seen the violence of the police state and the military
00:23:45.380against Indigenous people. Whereas in Canada, that's been going on for a very long period of
00:23:49.940time. You know, in 1990, there was a standoff in Oka over, how would you put it, there was,
00:23:59.700there's a cemetery out there and there's burial grounds and the non-Native community wanted to
00:24:06.900to create a golf course and they wanted to take out the pines and take out the burial site and
00:24:12.080of course people reacted and it became a military standoff and it was the biggest military standoff
00:24:19.460with native people in the country's history and that was in 1990 which was probably what 20 30
00:24:25.660years ago but this has continued to happen all across the country whether it's in remote
00:24:32.200communities, whether it's in urban communities, we've seen a lot of people get arrested. And like
00:24:37.620I was speaking earlier about Kanahus, she's been in jail numerous times for defending the land.
00:24:43.420And there are so many people I know all across the country. Another good example is the Algalan
00:24:49.780Queens of Ardok, where their whole chief and council got thrown in jail for six to nine months,
00:24:55.000all of them and this is their federally recognized leadership so it really you know canada has
00:25:02.740always had a very contestuous relationship with aboriginal people there are national aboriginal
00:25:09.880organizations that work very closely with the federal government trying to create policies
00:25:14.020and so on but then there are also community grassroots people that don't want their land
00:25:18.920destroyed by oil and gas companies or mining or forestry or whatever it is that will fight back
00:25:25.660and we'll do that with a variety of different tactics and that's often when we've seen arrests
00:25:31.060when we've seen the brutality of the state trying to assert its power over Indigenous people and I
00:25:37.400think that's the thing that's also that stands in the back of my mind and I think of the majority
00:25:42.860of land defenders that I know is that you know we have a right to do what we're doing we have the
00:25:48.660right to exist. And regardless of which government comes and goes and tries to create itself on our
00:25:55.680land, we'll always be here. And there's a deep power in that. And I think that's the thing that
00:26:00.780really is a threat to the state is that Indigenous people do have a right to the land.0.91
00:26:05.560And if we were really talking about true reconciliation, Canada would have to reconcile
00:26:10.660the fact that they stole 98.2% of the land. And so would its citizens. And that's, I don't think
00:26:17.640we're ever going to see that. I think that's something that's a colonial theme across the
00:26:22.220world, whether we're talking about Palestine or places in Africa or in South America, like the
00:26:27.180states that colonize places never want to apologize, but they also never want to give the land back
00:26:31.920because that means they admit that they did something wrong. And that may also roll out a
00:26:36.740whole conversation about reparations and a whole gamut of other things. So, you know, I don't
00:26:42.480necessarily see that happening. I think that's just the thing that I wanted to clarify is that,
00:26:46.820We've always had issues with the police.
00:26:49.460It hasn't been as public as it was in Standing Rock, but there have always been crackdowns on activists for a long, long time.
00:26:58.620And I think it's really interesting, again, going back to this idea of history, we have been monitored since the RCMP were created.
00:27:06.460And the whole reason the Royal, I'm talking about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, they were created because of the whole conflict between settlers trying to come out here and create farms, build homesteads and so on, and the Native people that were here in our territories that were trying to survive.
00:27:23.220if you really understand the historical role of the police in Canada and the reason they were
00:27:29.320created then you understand that there's always been that conflict this idea of Indian wars
00:27:34.140and that hasn't necessarily changed you know I think Canada really has to again protect its0.71
00:27:40.380resource extraction economy and the only thing that really stands in the way is indigenous people
00:27:44.620and indigenous rights in Canada and those that are willing to stand up for it which are the people
00:27:49.240like Hannahus and Judy De Silva and Chrissy Swains and all these people all across Canada
00:27:54.820are willing to do that. But they know full and well that when you do that, that does mean that
00:27:59.840potentially you're going to have to deal with the police. You're going to have to deal with
00:28:02.420things like arrest, which is really unfortunate. You've mentioned Standing Rock a few times,
00:28:07.780and it's been over two years since the beginning of the No Doppel grassroots movement. And during
00:28:13.780this time, you were a direct action trainer with Indigenous Peoples Power Project at Oshate
00:28:19.380Sakoan Camp. And given the time that has passed, I was hoping you could share your reflections
00:28:25.140on this movement and, you know, perhaps some of the lessons that you learned.
00:28:30.660I think I will be 100% honest. When I left Standing Rock, I took some time off, but I was
00:28:38.200also really angry and I think it wasn't so much about like the violations or all of the other0.99
00:28:44.420stuff that was happening it was more about the fact that like we just couldn't get our shit
00:28:48.060together um I don't know how to explain that any other any other way it's just that you know a lot
00:28:54.160of times we really we really needed to come together more than what we did and I felt like
00:29:00.700I was a part of the problem sometimes and you know that comes back to you know you get older
00:29:05.360you get an ego you think you know things and I think that that's really important to always keep
00:29:10.220that in check and that's tough sometimes because we get older we think that we know things right
00:29:16.280so that's you know some personal reflection I had I think it was really awesome that we could come
00:29:23.120out and be here to support it's also really challenging like as a as an organization you
00:29:28.780know one of our agreements that we had amongst all our trainers and the founders and so on is
00:29:33.100that we were not a political organization.
00:29:35.440So even though all of us had opinions about what we thought should happen
00:29:39.540and blah, blah, blah, the reality is that we were there to play a role
00:29:43.940in supporting whatever was going on in the best way that we thought that we could.
00:29:48.500I think the second part to that is just that if we're going to work with a community,
00:29:52.980we generally try to take leadership from the community itself
00:31:50.180But oftentimes we see escalated racism, acts along with that racism, and a whole bunch of other things that the community has to deal with after the fact.
00:31:59.780And I think that's the one thing that Ellen stressed to me, to really be mindful of is that, you know, this might be a really amazing moment, but the community is the one that's left there at the end of the day, and to always be really cognizant of that.
00:32:10.400And I don't know that personally that I did a great job of that, but it's also something that I really feel like is really important.
00:32:18.480As these things continue to happen and these frontline struggles continue to happen, it's really just working with the leaders that are there, being there to support them, to take direction from that community in the best way that you can, and to respect the fact that you're not from there.
00:32:33.940And that someday you can go home or go on to the next day or whatever it is, but the people that live there are definitely left with cleaning up the pieces but also trying to move forward into the future.
00:32:44.760And so how do we orientate ourselves with that?
00:32:47.640I think it's a really important thing to think about.
00:32:50.560I think some of the good things that happened most definitely were just people really understanding the connections and the strategy piece, I think, with the finance sector was really important.
00:33:01.180And there was a lot of really interesting conversations and debates that we had amongst ourselves just around strategy.
00:33:08.260And I think that's also really important.
00:33:09.800And things that we have learned from doing a lot of work in the Tar Sands is that it's really important to have people from the local community speaking to the issue.
00:33:19.200Like those of us that are from other places, that's fine and dandy, but we really need to highlight the voices of the communities that we're working with.
00:33:26.620I think the second piece to that is just really figuring out who has the power to give us what we want.
00:33:32.660You know, I think it's interesting that this conversation kind of started off with, that we're having with thinking about Trudeau and Trump.
00:33:41.920But I think one of the things that we've learned over the years is that that might have been a really good strategy 20 years ago or maybe 50 years ago,
00:33:50.060is that the country's held a lot of power in terms of policy
00:33:54.100and in terms of what happens on the ground and all these other things.
00:33:57.920And I think for the most part, a lot of that has changed
00:34:01.060with globalization, with the rise of the corporation.
00:34:05.520And I think that's one of the things that we really figured out
00:34:07.980with the tar sands is really trying to figure out
00:34:10.100who owns these companies, who has power in these companies,
00:39:13.520That was so informative how you described all the different levels of interpersonal, personal, local, global, gosh, all the different tactics that really go into supporting a movement to be successful in getting what you want.
00:39:31.820it's really really invaluable knowledge that you just shared and um you know as you were talking
00:39:36.720about people who are coming into movements that it's not their land it's not their territory it's
00:39:42.360not their home they don't have to deal with the repercussions of uh you know well it's not to say
00:39:48.300because in a sense we are all dealing with repercussions in terms of climate change but
00:39:52.380at the same token somebody who doesn't live there who stayed there even for six months they can then
00:39:57.120go home to their respective home and they're not faced with so much of the consequences of what
00:40:03.820happened and i also kind of in a little bit of the same train of thought another question about
00:40:11.660working together and i guess like what i'm thinking of is in the wake of no dapple over 800
00:40:17.740people were charged with crimes over a period of 11 months and ip3 states that quote as indigenous
00:40:23.780peoples are most at risk in terms of intimidation, surveillance, and state repression, it is
00:40:30.480imperative to have indigenous trainers steering the action, end quote. So I'm curious about who
00:40:36.460you think should occupy the front lines. You know, I've heard some indigenous land protectors call
00:40:41.160allies, especially white folks, to be at the front, whereas other point to the fact that movements
00:40:47.020like no dapple are about indigenous sovereignty and therefore must be native-led so i'd love to
00:40:53.940hear your thoughts on that and um you know what comes up for you in that question honestly it's
00:41:02.100a case-by-case situation because i think not all actions are going to be the same not all
00:41:08.540situations are going to be the same and to give a really good example like there there was an action
00:41:14.280I believe it was in Navajo Nation, where a bunch of grandmas decided that they were the ones that
00:41:19.780were going to stop these trucks from coming in and hauling in equipment. And they put themselves
00:41:24.980out in the front line. And so the picture in the paper was of these Navajo grandmas getting arrested.0.57
00:41:30.620And part of the reason their justification was is that they didn't want their young people to be
00:41:36.020the ones getting arrested because they wanted their young people not to have records and all
00:41:40.040these other things and so in that situation for them they were the ones that wanted to take that
00:41:45.680risk right i think in some situations people get arrested because they just got arrested like there
00:41:51.600wasn't no there wasn't time for planning there wasn't it just something happened people reacted
00:41:56.320right and i think in a lot of situations in standing wrong with actions that was the case
00:42:01.000is that something happened people reacted they went out there to the front lines and a lot of
00:42:06.920Folks got hurt, they got arrested, they got pepper sprayed, the list goes on.
00:42:10.840In other situations, it makes more sense to have allies, other brown folks, settlers, non-Native folks, be the ones getting arrested.0.87
00:42:22.440It really is situational to get this idea of strategy, right?0.89
00:42:25.920Because I think one of the things that's really important is that direct action is a tool in a toolbox, right?
00:42:32.020And so if you're trying to stop a pipeline or if you're trying to stop a logging, there's a variety of things that you're doing all at once. Right. You're trying to educate the general public. You're trying to build leadership with your own folks in your own community to work on stopping the logging trucks or whatever issue it is you're working on.
00:42:52.820You might be doing lobbying. You might be writing letters to, I don't know, MPs or band counselors or whoever else has power in that area in your community. You might be targeting the company who owns the logging trucks. You might be targeting the government because they signed the lease for this deal without consenting your people.
00:43:14.300Like there's just so many moving parts to a campaign.
00:43:17.100It takes some thinking and some thought to get to the sweet point where you're realizing like this is the sweet spot and this is where we're going to do some action because it makes the most sense because this person's our target and this is what they're doing.
00:43:32.420And I think as trainers, that's kind of our job is to help people figure that out.
00:43:36.960There's a lot of strategists that have a lot of different thoughts.
00:43:39.840And regardless of whether or not people think allies should be at the front lines or people think it should be led by Indigenous people or a mix of both or everyone has a role or regardless of what that decision looks like, at the end of the day, it goes back to the idea about, you know, the community that's directly impacted by whatever issue or whatever's going on is the one kind of taking the lead in terms of making some of these decisions or giving some direction.
00:44:05.660And I think that's really key is as long as those kind of, I don't know if the word protocol or whatever you want to call it, are respected, then I think that's going to be really key for how those actions play out.
00:44:18.660So I personally don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this.
00:44:22.180I think it's dependent on what the community wants to do, what makes sense at the time, and whether or not it's really strategic and where they're trying to get themselves, right?
00:44:32.460So that's a pretty convoluted answer, but I'm just trying to break it down a little
00:45:49.660I think one of the things that a story I heard was around the original KXL pipeline struggle was that these indigenous corn seeds that were found in a bundle that was, I think like they were 500 years old or something crazy like that.
00:46:07.360But they're indigenous corn seeds that belong to one of the tribes that's originally from the Nebraska area.
00:46:16.180And so somehow, I don't know the details of the story too much, but what I can tell you is that those seeds got planted in the pipeline right-of-way.
00:46:25.940And that was a way for the seeds to come home, but also to do an action to plant them in the right-of-way of the pipeline.
00:46:33.860And I know it kind of sounds a little convoluted, but it's actually a really big deal that the fact that these seeds were found and have been gone for such a long period of time and planting them in the original place where they come from is really symbolic, but it's also like that's an action, you know, in itself.
00:46:50.880I think when we talk about this idea of reconciliation for indigenous people, a lot of times that's like midwifery.
00:46:59.780It's having babies in a traditional way.
00:47:02.940That's reclaiming the gender spectrum beyond just men and women in our communities and creating space for everyone, regardless of how they identify.
00:47:13.200It's creating winter mines and building, I don't know, renewable homes.
00:47:20.020It's so many different things that direct action can be, and I think that's the fine balance is that we have to figure out.
00:47:27.500There's a need for those people to be at the front lines because these companies and corporations are still doing the things that they're doing,
00:47:35.040and our countries like Canada and the U.S. are still allowing for this to happen.0.90
00:47:39.040But at the same time, there's also a need for the building and the renewal and the resurgence of indigeneity, regardless of what that looks like in different communities, and that's going to happen in different ways.
00:47:54.820And I think the thing that's really beautiful, I think, is just seeing a lot of our young people being so creative about this resurgence of indigene in our communities, whether that's writing or art or even things like fashion design and beadwork, the resurgence of language.
00:48:14.000And I think that's also really exciting, you know, the practicing of our ceremonies, the interweaving of our ceremonies in all different ways.
00:48:23.940And it's really interesting in a modern day and age how that's being portrayed in a digital era.
00:48:30.140You know, we're starting to see things like film and other short films and things on the Internet and just the different ways that we're telling our story and evolving our culture.
00:48:39.660And so, you know, there's a role for that that's super significant that I don't think we talk about in the same way that we, to some degree, in some movements, glamorize actions.
00:48:49.520But it should be as glamorous, you know, and as important because I really don't feel like if you take something out of the system, you have to replace it with something.
00:48:58.840And in our movement, we want to replace it with something that's beautiful, that's healthy, and that's a reflection of where we want to move.
00:49:06.720And I think that's the one thing that I'm really thankful that, you know,
00:49:11.280I got to spend time with movement elders because they really kind of drilled it
00:49:34.700And I think that's the thing that makes me feel good about all these actions and also the things that we're doing that might be really negative is that fine balance.
00:49:44.160And so in the long term, that's kind of what I think about it, if that makes sense.
00:49:52.160And you've been organizing for over 20 years and just being able to have so much to share with us, I just want to say thank you.
00:50:00.400And, you know, during this time, you could have transitioned to working with large-scale NGOs or Big Green, but you didn't.
00:50:07.740And I'm wondering if you could explain the nuances of why you never went to Big Green and what is the importance of supporting grassroots movements over NGOs, especially in regards to climate justice?
00:50:20.300Well, I wouldn't stand necessarily against it.
00:50:22.920I did work for Greenpeace for, I think, three or four months.
00:50:26.280I think it was just really challenging at the time because Greenpeace was just newly beginning to understand its own role that it had and why Indigenous people were so upset with the organization and really having a thought process internally about what that would look like.
00:50:44.380And so they've made some changes, and I think that's good, you know.
00:50:47.860I'm not sure really how to answer that question because I go back and forth a lot because I feel like, you know, I definitely supported Indigenous Climate Action, which is the organization that Errol Durandji founded, who is one of the main activists and organizers who's from the Athabasca Chippewan First Nation, who's 100 kilometers away from the open pit tar sands mines, right?
00:51:11.620And so the work that she's doing is really awesome.
00:51:14.060It's really important and it's really needed in Canada.
00:51:16.960There's no other organization that's Indigenous that is doing work on climate.
00:51:22.360I think the challenge with the Greens, it goes back a long time.
00:51:28.220And it used to be this whole thing, like I would say 30, 40 years ago, where they would hear about an issue in Indian country and they would come and take pictures of us.
00:51:38.360They interview maybe some elders, maybe some leaders, and they go away and they run a campaign on behalf of the community, but without ever working with the community.
00:51:48.440We've definitely, for sure, 110% with the Tar Sands campaign worked really hard to hold space for Indigenous leadership from the communities that are right in the zone of extraction of the Tar Sands.
00:52:02.980And that's a really important principle thing that I think should never really change in organizing is that, yes, people are impacted all along the chain, but they're not the refineries in Detroit or where, again, the refineries are in Richmond, California and all these places.
00:52:21.600But it's also really ensuring that the people that are impacted by the issue happening are able to speak for themselves.
00:52:29.660And I think that's a direct nuance from that 20, 30 years ago of working with these NGOs.
00:52:36.200I think there's a really important thing, you know, that particularly in Canada, as we talk about reconciliation,
00:52:42.780that the organizations, we've asked them numerous times to work with our people in a way that's equitable
00:52:48.940and to really understand the power of Indigenous rights,
00:52:52.480the power that Indigenous people Canada hold.
00:52:56.300And I think it's only through the Tar Sands campaign
00:52:58.640that people have really understood that
00:53:00.460because of all the lawsuits that we've been able to launch
00:53:03.940as First Nations at the Supreme Court level
00:53:06.720against the Canadian government or naming the Canadian government.
00:53:10.460And I think people really didn't get it
00:53:12.940until the last, I would say, five to six years.
00:53:16.020And even that, it's still very tertiary,
00:53:18.100where a lot of these NGOs are only working with us
00:53:21.760because they know that we can sue the government
00:53:24.380and that we really are the only people in Canada
00:53:46.760And I think, like what I was saying earlier, like I'm getting older, I'm getting more set in my ways, and sometimes I might be a part of the problem.
00:53:54.720And that's something that I really, I'm trying to work on, checking myself.
00:53:59.420You know, I didn't realize that until I think probably Standing Rock, because sometimes I can be part of the problem.
00:54:05.620But I think, you know, that's where I look to a lot of our young people that I hope are getting institutional memory of the work that we've been doing, and that we'll be willing to take steps further than the work that we've done in those last few years, and that us as the older folks will play a role in supporting our leadership.
00:54:23.720And I think that's going to be really critical in moving forward.
00:54:26.120But in terms of these relationships with these NGOs and larger climate movement, it's just always difficult because I don't feel like a lot of times, and particularly when we're talking about the global stage and the international climate negotiations, there's a very small section of the climate negotiations that has kind of been opened up for Indigenous people.
00:54:48.040And we're trying to hold that space. But it's really difficult when folks that we work with at home or organizations that are international that might work in our territories don't necessarily always have our backs or will go with the status quo around certain things that are being negotiated on the floor in, say, Paris or Bonn or wherever these negotiations are happening.
00:55:10.900So it always makes our relationships really challenging. And like anything, we have arguments, we try and solve them, and we try and move forward. I think there's definitely some groups that 110% get it, we throw down for each other, we show up for each other. And I think that's the way our movements need to move forward is just continuing to build.
00:55:30.620and I think also really trying to work out the conflicts that we have with each other
00:55:35.940and that's personally been a challenge for me.
00:56:24.240and they're doing all really amazing things
00:56:26.380And I'm really proud to have met them and to know of them and to work with them here and there, but just to watch them really flourish.
00:56:33.980And I think that's the thing that I personally want to reflect on is that there are so many other young people that are like them that we just need to stand back a little bit and support them, but also model some good behavior, right?
00:56:45.540And check ourselves and be better people because we owe it to them to do that.
00:56:50.380And so I hope I answered your question.
00:56:52.120I'm kind of a little bit long-winded today.