For The Wild - Homebound： Transforming Toxic Movement Culture with THE WILDFIRE PROJECT ⧸180

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00:00:30.000 Hi folks, Carter Liu here with another Homebound release.

00:00:35.260 Homebound brings you wisdom from the For the Wild archives,

00:00:38.660 offering guidance and perspective to anchor us and help us navigate this current moment.

00:00:44.460 This week we are sharing our episode with the Wildfire Project on Transforming Toxic Movement Culture,

00:00:51.160 originally aired in 2019.

00:00:53.720 If we want to hold on to the visions of the future we are beginning to get a glimpse of now,

00:00:58.240 or create a world where we thrive, we're going to have to get involved with our communities and

00:01:03.580 come together. However, this is often easier said than done when we've been preconditioned in a

00:01:10.480 hyper-individualistic, self-serving society. We need voices that can guide us through these

00:01:16.560 times of conflict and unease as we forge connection to create our vision. We must be

00:01:22.900 willing to work through our preconditioning conflict disappointment and imperfections

00:01:28.900 as we listen to what joshua khan bj star and michael storm share with us we wonder how can

00:01:37.660 anger serve us in times of transformation what is the value in challenging ourselves to be part of

00:01:44.560 what is not perfect how can exercising our power be a just necessity thanks for tuning in this week

00:01:52.400 And I hope you join us next Friday.

00:01:58.540 Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young.

00:02:22.400 So there's a dynamic in movements where we go to attack each other because that's an arena

00:02:39.720 where we see where we can have impact. And because we have such a critical lens of being

00:02:45.260 able to see what's problematic with everything, we can turn in on ourselves and develop a culture

00:02:51.240 of a purity of politics where we build these circular firing squads and build an orientation

00:02:58.660 where we kind of constantly push each other to say the perfect things. And if you can't say the

00:03:04.560 perfect thing, then you become disposable. Today we are speaking with Joshua Kahn,

00:03:17.840 BJ Starr, and Michael Strom from the Wildfire Project. The Wildfire Project strengthens

00:03:24.440 movements for ecological, racial, and economic justice by supporting organizations to transform

00:03:30.260 and spread a thriving culture, resilient in the face of changing terrain, grounded in history,

00:03:36.240 vision, and strategy, connected to a North Star bigger than themselves, building across identity,

00:03:41.940 and prepared to grow and win. We do this through deep facilitation using democratic, experiential

00:03:48.700 methods, fusing political education and skills training with personal and group transformation

00:03:53.540 and a curriculum tailored to specific needs of grassroots activism. Wildfire develops

00:03:58.920 leaderships of frontline groups and maintains long-term support with the communities in which

00:04:04.020 it works. So wildfire emphasizes how movements can approach oncoming crises as opportunities

00:04:12.320 for collective liberation. And to begin this conversation, I would love to really dive into

00:04:19.200 this fully and explore some of the facets crises entails. So initially, I think of Naomi Klein's

00:04:26.100 shock doctrine and how historically the powers that can be utilized in crises, both real and

00:04:33.400 imagined as a way to justify ideological agendas and policies that typically cut or, you know,

00:04:41.000 privatize public services, you know, deregulate the market and even suspend constitutional

00:04:46.540 protections. So of course, we must remain vigilant of the kind of chaos that is contrived by the

00:04:53.060 elite. But then simultaneously, we cannot allow ourselves or our movements to become paralyzed.

00:04:58.100 and since wildfire i know works with groups and individuals regularly i'm really curious about

00:05:04.340 what are some of the most you know common self-limitations you see or maybe what problems

00:05:11.040 are we immediately confronted with when we choose to work together and then along the lines of

00:05:16.740 limitation i'm really specifically thinking of our aversion to both conflict and power

00:05:21.500 so if you could share on how wildfire encourages groups to explore sites of tension and conflict

00:05:27.480 Yeah, I think you really just nailed it on the point about it being mandatory for us to figure out how to come together more powerfully.

00:05:39.600 It's really obvious that there are a bunch of crises and collapse on the horizon and a bunch of crises that we're currently in.

00:05:49.740 And I think we're fundamentally rooted in the belief that we need to figure out how to be together differently and be together more powerfully with more compassion if we're going to weather those storms.

00:06:03.020 And so to get to your point about the kind of self-limiting beliefs that come up, yeah, I think that any time that anyone in a group or an individual moves toward some kind of bold or visionary plan, any time we do that, we encounter our self-limiting beliefs.

00:06:25.000 we encounter stories about who we are that keep us small. And they can take a lot of different

00:06:33.600 shapes. It could be, I don't know how to do this. I'm not smart enough. I'm not brave enough. I can't

00:06:40.320 handle how hard it's going to be. It could be, well, if we really talk about this, our organization

00:06:47.080 is going to fall apart. Or if I show vulnerability as a leader, then the group will lose trust

00:06:57.020 in me, anything like that. And you get a sense that someone is expressing a self-limiting

00:07:03.540 belief when the language is really always or never, right? When it's just kind of the

00:07:11.760 way things are, as opposed to something that they can change or that they can work to transform.

00:07:19.020 And so, yeah, I think conflict is really the big one that we face again and again.

00:07:25.200 There's always some conversation that a group is maintaining collective silence around,

00:07:32.440 but a conversation that needs to be had in order for the group to be relating to each

00:07:37.700 other honestly and authentically.

00:07:39.600 and so I don't know there's there's so many examples I think that one that comes to mind is

00:07:46.840 we we were recently working with a group that was trying to figure out how to address

00:07:52.640 patriarchy and sexism as they were were coming up in interactions with the members

00:07:59.060 and it was clear that there was a problem and it was clear that everyone was that everyone had the

00:08:09.220 desire to fix the problem. All the words that people were saying were the right words, right?

00:08:15.460 We're expressing a rooted commitment. But then when we decided to have a work strap where they

00:08:21.860 had the opportunity to talk about what was going on and what needed to be done, there was just

00:08:25.940 crickets. And there was a really low energy and people seemed distracted or like they didn't know

00:08:34.280 what to say. And ultimately, it took a lot of work to really come at the conversation from a

00:08:43.180 whole bunch of different sides until finally strong emotion emerged. And the strong emotion

00:08:48.880 was anger. And it became really clear in that moment that there was a lot of anger in the room.

00:08:55.940 And the cost of not expressing the anger was that they weren't really relating to each other

00:09:02.500 authentically and they weren't really dealing with what was at stake because the anger was

00:09:06.880 showing the room that people were hurting people in the room were actively hurting right now

00:09:12.100 and so the self-limiting belief that was under all of that is if i express my anger

00:09:17.740 the group is going to fall apart

00:09:19.720 and once we were able to allow the anger into the room to let it get expressed and to show that the

00:09:28.680 group did not fall apart, then we were able to really stay in the anger until we started to move

00:09:33.820 towards some solutions. And that, I think, is an example of a self-limiting belief.

00:09:41.380 It makes me think of, and I don't remember exactly the quote, but it's something like,

00:09:49.460 in this dominant culture, we are conflict averse, but war prone or, or like we're ready to go into

00:09:58.520 war, but we don't want to talk about conflict. And I think it's really fascinating to hear

00:10:05.020 how afraid people are and scared to be able just to speak truth. And, um, I know I I've felt that

00:10:15.960 time and time again in my own life. So yeah, it makes sense that this comes up. And I want to

00:10:25.080 now speak a little more to the power elements. So I'm thinking of an article I read by Wildfire's

00:10:31.700 Yotam Moram, who reflects on the frequency in which we internalize deep shame about our origins

00:10:39.160 or past mistakes, which then leads us to reject any sort of relationship or embodiment of power

00:10:45.200 in our own circles. And Morham writes, quote, I internalized the message that the best thing I

00:10:51.680 could do for the movement was to mitigate the damage I've done by existing, that my job was

00:10:58.960 really just to disappear. There are historical reasons for this dilemma and current reasons

00:11:03.800 that our movements have adopted these knee-jerk responses to what it perceives as power or

00:11:09.000 privilege, end quote. So I wonder if any of you would be comfortable picking up on this conversation

00:11:16.980 on the politics of powerlessness, and who benefits from the negation of power?

00:11:24.760 Do you see differences between responsibility and power?

00:11:28.200 Such a good question, Ayanna. A dear friend, Nia Kota, says that with power comes responsibility,

00:11:37.340 and with responsibility comes vulnerability and when we shy away from our power we're actually

00:11:48.700 putting more responsibility on other people and in many cases putting more of a burden of

00:11:56.600 different forms of labor onto other people within our groups within our movement and so the what we

00:12:04.620 protect ourselves from is the vulnerability that moving into our power and wielding our

00:12:11.900 privilege creates. It puts us in the conversation where our shortcomings, our politics will be

00:12:23.160 questioned. It puts us in a place where our decisions will be challenged and we will have

00:12:32.840 to take greater risks than we would have had to had we chosen not to move into our power.

00:12:38.680 And with those risks means sometimes we're going to make the wrong decisions, if you will,

00:12:45.100 and perhaps regret them, perhaps hurt people, perhaps lose a campaign, perhaps lose funding,

00:12:54.480 all kinds of things. And because we don't have the mechanisms built into our groups and into

00:13:01.400 our community to handle that kind of disappointment, shame, mistake, harm, then we tend to avoid

00:13:10.200 being in a position where we could cause it.

00:13:13.500 So rather than take the risk, move into our power, and assume the responsibility and vulnerability

00:13:20.660 that comes with that, we avoid and we project that power onto other folks.

00:13:26.980 Well, they're actually a lot smarter than I am, or that's our ED.

00:13:32.560 They should be the one to put forward the proposal about our strategic plan.

00:13:38.020 Whatever it might be, we start looking for another person who should hold that responsibility.

00:13:43.000 And it's part of our belief that a group being able to move into feedback, conflict, greater

00:13:54.340 like meta self-awareness with itself and one another and the individuals in it can actually

00:14:00.600 rebuild those mechanisms that we need to handle when things don't go right, to be able to

00:14:07.820 support the group as a whole and moving through what did not serve it. So that people are less

00:14:16.160 prone to being, I mean, really at the extreme end of it, being discarded. Like, I think that's a

00:14:25.160 huge fear is that we will, we're going to mess up. And like Michael said, this is going to break

00:14:30.040 this group apart, or I might make a huge mistake and I may not belong here anymore. Right. So we're,

00:14:37.280 We're kind of building these, what I think of as like adaptogens within a group that allow for it to expand in those moments that challenge the perfectionism, challenge the reductive identity politics, and allow for us to really support each other, both in moving into our power and as a whole moving into the practices that are going to uplift.

00:15:05.520 like allow us to evolve when we wield our power unskillfully so much of what bj is sharing just

00:15:15.080 reminds me of why we focus in wildfire on practicing and and just being in constant

00:15:21.080 practice of new ways of being together because so much of the culture of activism has been shaped by

00:15:27.700 a critical analysis we get really good at criticizing what's wrong with the world

00:15:32.500 And there's so many examples of the ways that power is wielded unaccountably, that the ways that power is oppressive, that power is embodied in a toxic masculine way that is power over.

00:15:45.820 And what we find is so many folks are often afraid of embodying that because that's the examples from society that we have to go on.

00:15:53.880 And we see it in our movements that we just orient around not being that, right, not being oppressive.

00:16:00.560 And then as a result, the contraction that happens is shrinking and withering.

00:16:07.000 And so much of the kind of generative examples that BJ just gave are our reflections of what we try to do is get folks to practice.

00:16:16.300 What would it feel like to be stepping into our power, no matter what balance of identities we hold, no matter what access we have in a way that grows access and agency for ourselves and for the group?

00:16:30.560 And we really focus on trying to embody new ways of being that rather than focusing exclusively on identifying and breaking down all of the problematic ways we see it in society.

00:16:43.440 Michael, do you have anything that you'd like to add to this?

00:16:46.880 Yeah.

00:16:47.320 I think that one of the things I want to pull out of what BJ said and emphasize is how much this all makes sense.

00:16:58.200 how much staying small is a smart strategy in certain ways given the way that power exists

00:17:08.020 in our society and the ways we've come to understand power staying small can totally

00:17:15.120 keep us safe and it's definitely easier to try and be right than it is to try and win

00:17:24.280 and I think it's important to acknowledge the ways that staying small has taken care of us

00:17:31.960 and a part of that is like I said just that we have so many bad examples and misunderstandings

00:17:38.800 of what power looks like that it can be hard to envision a power that is connected that is

00:17:46.460 related that is accountable that is interdependent so we're not just asking people to to become

00:17:53.880 powerful in the way that you know a politician or a ceo is powerful we're asking people to learn

00:18:01.740 a whole new way of being powerful and that can be hard but is ultimately necessary and the the

00:18:08.940 thing we get from that is much greater than the thing that we get from staying small i add one

00:18:17.620 last thing to that ayana every body physical body has a different sensation or reaction to

00:18:26.420 that word or even the idea of moving into their power whether it be the idea of speaking out

00:18:34.340 for example depending on that individual's life experience or maybe even their family's

00:18:40.560 experience their culture's experience maybe their ancestors experience that body might feel

00:18:47.400 a very real deep visceral fear of like death perhaps you know at the most extreme because

00:18:54.700 we have lots of lived experience of the treatment of folks who moved into their power

00:19:00.340 of what happened to them as a result of uh speaking out if we keep using that as an example

00:19:07.820 be it to be silenced through uh state-sanctioned violence to be incarcerated to be assassinated

00:19:17.380 to be targeted in the media, to have their family targeted.

00:19:23.680 All kinds of things have happened to us that are very real risks of being as powerful as

00:19:30.740 we believe we need to be.

00:19:33.180 And working through that isn't just a matter of choice.

00:19:37.240 It's not as easy as just saying, you know what, I'm sick of thinking that way.

00:19:41.940 I'm going to go for it.

00:19:43.040 There's real healing that has to also happen there.

00:19:46.140 and space that we have to create for that healing.

00:19:50.840 And so while there's like the politic of powerlessness,

00:19:57.660 there's also the very real demand that we have

00:20:01.540 for tools and techniques that are going to help us

00:20:05.020 transform what has caused our powerlessness.

00:20:08.840 And that's something that we're continuing to really explore

00:20:11.400 and deepen in our work, primarily right now through conflict,

00:20:14.700 but also in some of the practices that we've been drawing from.

00:20:20.840 Yes, I really agree, BJ, that again, like it just comes, this word mandatory keeps coming up.

00:20:28.500 These things aren't something that we can skip and think that we can get to the finish line.

00:20:33.540 You know, we can't just wash all this human, interpersonal human dimensions and human

00:20:40.660 conditioning under the rug and expect to be able to be long-term, efficient, effective,

00:20:47.360 impactful activists or people of service, even people with good relationships with each

00:20:54.420 other, you know, our families, our friends, our co-workers.

00:20:57.320 So this conversation is so ripe.

00:21:01.260 And also the way you all have discussed power is really fascinating because I think at first

00:21:08.440 when I thought about power, I was thinking of like taking the power, like kind of this idea

00:21:14.400 of leadership where I love how you are all explaining it because yes, power can mean

00:21:21.180 leadership, but power can mean vulnerability. Power is truth. Power is all of these different

00:21:28.020 factors. And by stepping into our power, we're actually, you know, in a healthy way, in a way

00:21:35.800 that's balanced with integrity creates better relationships. And I think that it's just a

00:21:41.220 narrative that many of us are completely not taught that stepping into our power is actually

00:21:47.620 beneficial for those around us. I feel like that's, that's not the common way of understanding

00:21:52.420 it. And so I really appreciate that. And there's, there's so much other analysis that I've been

00:21:57.400 doing while you've all of you've been speaking, but I want to get into this next question that

00:22:03.100 I think about so often, especially with the Trump administration and really this very divided

00:22:11.300 country with the left and the right. But one thing I will say about the right is there seems to be

00:22:18.940 a stronger unification. And in that unification, there is power or impact or whatever word we'd

00:22:29.340 want to use. But it just also seems that more and more often, the leftist movements and community,

00:22:35.920 they just seem to continue to alienate themselves from the public, both by choice as well as in

00:22:41.520 their treatment of those who don't align directly with their values. And I know this is a generalization

00:22:48.080 alert, but I'd like to kind of talk about it overarchingly. And I'd love if you all or whoever

00:22:54.380 would like to speak to this can share a little bit more about the toxic movement culture.

00:22:58.480 And then what infrastructure is missing in many of today's movements to move out of the

00:23:04.000 toxicity?

00:23:05.620 Yeah, there's so many angles for this.

00:23:07.840 Maybe I'll kick it off and BJ and Michael, you can build one direction that that sends

00:23:14.800 my mind in is thinking about power in a structural way, which is one common experience, I think,

00:23:23.620 among activist subcultures that is an element of what we call toxic movement culture is the desire

00:23:31.500 to signal your alienation from society rather than take responsibility to lead society.

00:23:37.460 And when the left is in a structural position where we don't have collective power, and in

00:23:43.800 this case, I use that term in the sense of governance, in the sense of directing systems

00:23:49.180 and of distribution of resources and people feeling a sense of agency over the control

00:23:56.080 of their lives, when you don't feel that sense of power, you want to express your discontent

00:24:03.440 in some arena where you might have an impact.

00:24:06.260 So what I mean is that let's say that you're feeling in some kind of existential despair

00:24:11.920 around climate change. And you look to Exxon and see the way that Exxon and the oil oligarchs are

00:24:21.000 ethnically cleansing indigenous communities, are destroying the environment and our human family

00:24:29.220 for oil exploration. Well, if you don't feel like you have any leverage or sense of power 0.99

00:24:34.880 to, let's say, punch the CEO of Exxon, maybe you don't have access to that arena, but you can at

00:24:41.580 least punch the person next to you in the meeting for only agreeing with you 99% of the time 0.82

00:24:46.560 instead of 100% of the time. And so there's a dynamic in movements where we go to attack each

00:24:53.520 other because that's an arena where we see where we can have impact. And because we have such a

00:24:59.100 critical lens of being able to see what's problematic with everything, we can turn in on

00:25:04.280 ourselves and develop a culture of a purity of politics where we build these circular firing

00:25:10.600 squads and builds an orientation where we kind of constantly push each other to say the perfect

00:25:17.860 things. And if you can't say the perfect thing, then you become disposable. And so I think a lot

00:25:27.700 of these elements of toxic movement culture that we talk about, whether that is related to the

00:25:33.400 reductive politics or an identity, whether it's related to burnout or call out culture,

00:25:38.780 a lot of that is related to a sense of efficacy, that if our movements aren't picking strategies

00:25:44.760 that are, you know, to a scale that's commensurate with the crisis, then we look to where we actually

00:25:50.980 can feel the impact of our actions. And that is a reflection of how our movements engage in

00:25:56.460 conflict with one another. You know, you pointed this out earlier, Ayanna, when BJ and Michael

00:26:03.460 we're describing our movement's aversion to conflict where we we get afraid to engage in

00:26:08.800 generative conflict and the other side of that coin is that um while in one sense we are deeply

00:26:15.400 conflict averse as social movements or at least some some sectors are in other ways we engage in

00:26:22.040 really unproductive kind of conflict on the sidelines that we learn from a sort of combative

00:26:27.180 stance that comes from campaigning and from waging campaigns against a target. And then we

00:26:33.600 look at each other like targets rather than looking at each other as we've all been damaged

00:26:39.380 by this culture. We've all been damaged by capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy,

00:26:45.340 colonialism, and we're in a process of healing together. And that the reason why we build

00:26:51.300 movements is both to shift society but to also heal as we do it so i'll i'll pause there and

00:26:58.080 see if bj or michael want to want to build on that because there's there's a lot of dimensions we

00:27:02.460 could take take it from yeah another thing i'd like to bring into into the that conversation is

00:27:11.140 the general context in what is our responsibility and what isn't our responsibility because

00:27:17.820 the right is using, you know, the language and images of patriotism and Christianity

00:27:26.700 and these kind of like widely accepted, deeply held symbols in American culture

00:27:36.340 that have a lot of traction. And on the left, we're, you know, fighting for some things that

00:27:44.200 are very contrary or can be very contrary to the way things have been functioning in the United

00:27:51.480 States for a long time. And the sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, transphobia, classism,

00:28:00.040 et cetera, of our society at large is a real barrier. And that part isn't our fault. That

00:28:06.840 disadvantage isn't a thing for us to take responsibility for, but it is on us to take

00:28:11.940 responsibility for what is within our control and for speaking through and across those differences

00:28:20.060 in a way that really changes the narrative and to create our own narrative that is equally

00:28:25.880 compelling and to really ground into relating to people and recognizing the the kind of currency

00:28:35.240 of a relationship and in building our movements and so I think it's important just to always keep

00:28:40.660 that in mind when we're having this discussion. And then another thing that I wanted to bring in

00:28:45.340 is a tendency to not have any gray area, to not allow things to be complex.

00:28:53.660 And I think this is at the root of so many of the problems that emerge in our movement culture,

00:29:00.220 is that something needs to be entirely bad or entirely good, or entirely oppressive or entirely

00:29:06.560 liberatory. And a lot of the work that we do is to help people see with good eyes and really

00:29:14.920 see each other as whole and complex and growing and evolving together. And so I can think of

00:29:22.740 one example in a workshop that we did recently, where we, there was a tension around,

00:29:32.060 on one hand the group thought of itself as a space where we can bring our whole selves we can hold

00:29:39.780 each other in our wholeness but then they were facing the reality of but we can't hold everything

00:29:45.480 right there's actually limits to what we can take on and we invited them into a conversation of

00:29:52.880 what can I hold and what can't I hold what can I bring to the group and what should I

00:30:00.640 work through on my own. And the place where the lesson really sunk in and really hit was when

00:30:08.680 they started to think about how they would convey this tension to their base and that they were

00:30:13.860 going to have to ask their base to understand that they were growing, that they were entering

00:30:23.680 into a question that they didn't have an answer to. And when they realized that they had to ask

00:30:28.440 that, they realized that they had to model being complex and unfinished, that there was actually a

00:30:34.700 problem that they were taking on that they weren't going to find a clear answer to. And a clear answer

00:30:39.100 might not actually exist. And so when they sat in that and were like, oh, we're going to have to

00:30:44.380 model to all of our membership what it means to be figuring things out, that ended up creating a

00:30:50.260 whole bunch of ease because they didn't have to be entirely right or entirely wrong. And they

00:30:56.520 didn't have to get this question right the first time. And I think spaces like that where we're

00:31:02.500 inviting people to be in that complexity end up softening all different difficult parts

00:31:09.060 of movement culture.

00:31:26.520 Oh, here we go.

00:31:47.060 Just because they think we're going to be quiet, sit around, watch TV, not do nothing.

00:31:53.920 Let them poison the planet 1.00

00:31:58.920 Fuck with our people 1.00

00:32:02.200 They must not feel the ground trembling 1.00

00:32:07.460 They must not see the people organizing

00:32:10.380 And I see it

00:32:12.500 I see us growing underneath the soil

00:32:18.060 Getting ready to break through this concrete

00:32:21.480 Getting ready to heal

00:32:22.420 There's earth, there's land

00:32:25.400 These people

00:32:26.900 That's what I see

00:32:29.180 And I know you want to rise like flowers

00:32:34.300 Out of the concrete

00:32:36.860 Rise like warriors into these streets

00:32:43.840 Cause I know we need to rise like flowers

00:32:48.080 Out of the concrete

00:32:50.540 don't you know you want to rise like warriors into these streets

00:32:57.760 all together we'll rise like flowers out of the concrete

00:33:04.640 you all said so many really profound things i'm still remembering joshua when you

00:33:15.460 mentioned this um this thing that happens which i know has happened to me before too it's like

00:33:22.060 you can't punch the exxon mobile ceo but you can look to the person next to you who might even be

00:33:29.660 a comrade or a friend or a lover and take it out on them because it's where you may have power or

00:33:35.480 access to releasing those feelings and it's it's all kind of making more sense to me how

00:33:43.600 this toxic culture within people who care so much can arise because of these dimensions and

00:33:52.600 that we aren't conditioned to know how to communicate how to be vulnerable how to stand

00:33:58.020 in our power these aren't this isn't what we're learning in school or and most of the time or i

00:34:03.740 don't know if most of the time but i would imagine even in our family systems for a lot of us

00:34:09.220 And I know we have talked to some of this, but I want to get a little more detailed on

00:34:14.660 this topic and explore the dynamics and the peril of this call-out culture and why we

00:34:21.980 need to seriously reorient ourselves to calling one another in.

00:34:27.000 You know, I'm wondering, why do you think we are seeing a resurgence in this mentality

00:34:31.920 of constant attack?

00:34:32.980 And like, this is maybe what you kind of spoke some to, but, you know, as well as this

00:34:37.460 expectation of perfection and I'm wondering isn't there value in challenging ourselves to be a part

00:34:42.620 of what is not perfect but the other part I want to speak to and you and I know you all have been 0.84

00:34:49.320 speaking with the complexity in the gray area is in one hand I see the damage that call out culture

00:34:56.840 can have on the other hand I also see that there are times that people do need to get called out

00:35:02.440 and how you all balance that

00:35:06.720 in a way that's healthy and regenerative,

00:35:09.800 I'd really love to hear.

00:35:12.220 What a good question.

00:35:14.680 I'm thinking of a recent group

00:35:17.880 that I was working with

00:35:19.320 and we were focusing quite a bit

00:35:23.640 on microaggressions.

00:35:26.240 A lot of research lately,

00:35:29.000 it's been over some time now

00:35:30.440 in the last decade,

00:35:31.440 has shown that microaggressions have a more long-term detrimental psychological impact

00:35:40.680 than the more extreme cases of very overt aggressions that the like small doses daily

00:35:50.140 affect us even even more so we were focusing on microaggressions because that's often a thing

00:35:57.240 that people get called out for and one of the ways that we tend to respond to it is to name it

00:36:09.840 and shame it basically you did the wrong thing you shouldn't have done that you should know better

00:36:17.060 or you're terrible because dot dot dot or you're racist because dot dot dot or you're insensitive

00:36:24.580 or whatever it might be, as Joshua named, we're trained so well to be able to see it and name it,

00:36:31.580 a lot of us. However, when it comes to engaging it or educating or interrupting it, we have a lot

00:36:39.940 less practice. And because we don't have that practice, it's not a deeply ingrained thing in

00:36:46.240 us. It's not a natural response that we're going to go to. There's risk there. We could do it wrong.

00:36:51.380 and especially if we engage which means we we're going to draw someone into a question ask them

00:36:58.400 more why they think that way or or perhaps educate them and share a little bit more about

00:37:06.000 why some of their behaviors are problematic or start to bring their attention to it we actually

00:37:14.180 put ourselves in a more vulnerable situation once again. When we can call something out and point a

00:37:23.180 finger across the table, then the attention is no longer on us. But when we engage and we draw

00:37:32.140 ourselves into a conversation, then what may also come into the light is our own assumptions,

00:37:39.300 our own shortcomings our own problematic behaviors as well uh oftentimes the closer we get to someone

00:37:49.260 in a like compassionate way the more we can see ourselves and the truth is that the line that

00:37:54.840 divides like what is good and bad if you will or what we see as like a liberatory or oppressive

00:38:02.280 runs through every single one of us it doesn't divide us it runs through every single one of us

00:38:07.700 And we all at some point have, I don't know, we're susceptible, we're conditioned in a way where we're likely to reproduce some of the same problems that we're trying to fight against.

00:38:21.640 So it's absolutely necessary for us to be practicing new skills, particularly around feedback, so that we have the idea of like, how might we transform this versus how might we just identify this?

00:38:40.360 Like you said, we're conflict-averse, but war-prone.

00:38:44.060 So we are quicker to attack than to invite someone into a conversation.

00:38:55.380 So that's what we're really trying to look at with some of our groups is how do, what

00:39:01.440 are some of the practices?

00:39:02.940 How can we allow ourselves to even experiment when there's so much at stake, right?

00:39:08.080 Like when we know that this thing needs to end 20 years ago and we're still dealing with it, how do we approach that conversation with humility, with compassion, and with enough honesty and truth that we have the potential to transform it?

00:39:30.400 And it's useful also when the term call out culture or the term calling out, it can mean so many different things.

00:39:40.340 And it also feels worth clarifying that within Wildfire, what we're talking about is within groups, among comrades, among people who there's a relational container to support each other to be and do better, which is different than it.

00:39:59.260 To me, it's a totally different conversation around publicly calling out a celebrity or

00:40:06.680 the national conversation around the MAGA hat wearing kids that just happened last week

00:40:14.740 or where the goals of some of that quote calling out are really about drawing attention to

00:40:22.060 a behavior to say that that's not okay, right?

00:40:26.880 that's terrain that we don't really work in in wildfire. The arenas that we work in are within

00:40:32.980 groups and within social movements among peers who share a liberatory goal where it's worth it

00:40:40.460 to invest in each other, where we have a kind of relational container to want to teach each other

00:40:46.600 and support each other to grow. And so it felt useful to make that distinction as well.

00:40:51.900 Yeah, I really appreciate that, Joshua. Because there is a large difference between those two realms. And I'm sure there's even other realms that we have yet to discuss.

00:41:04.240 But I want to now switch this topic to this word Anthropocene, and I've been seeing it

00:41:13.200 used more and more.

00:41:15.260 And I want to actually talk about the idea of letting go of the Anthropocene or the old

00:41:22.280 world, because the Anthropocene is characterized by chaos, change, and uncertainty.

00:41:28.220 it's an as it's a result of our own actions that have generated this climate change mass extinction

00:41:34.840 pollution elite authoritarianism and kind of a sort of perverse resilience so i'm curious about

00:41:43.700 each of your relationship to this concept or this term anthropocene and do you think the more we

00:41:49.900 seek to understand this age of man as they're calling it and recognize it as our own perhaps

00:41:57.560 the longer it will prevail because we're putting so much energy into it.

00:42:01.840 Yeah, I'll kick it off, which is, well, if I understand your question correctly, I honor.

00:42:09.240 So please, please course correct me if I'm not going in the direction that you're bringing

00:42:14.820 us in.

00:42:15.740 But when we look out into the world right now, we see a landscape where all of the natural

00:42:21.460 living systems that support life on this planet are in free fall or collapse.

00:42:26.620 And that's putting pressure on our social, political, and economic systems in such a way where our orientation towards resiliency is the politics of collapse and rebirth and regenerative cycles.

00:42:43.340 And we've seen so many social movement sectors begin to move towards holistic ecological analysis and towards spirits to understand the scale of the changes that are coming, which is quite different than movements before us, which primarily use the tools of ideology or materialist Marxist frameworks to think primarily about

00:43:12.480 how do we transform human systems of governance? And so for us, our orientation is that the earth

00:43:22.120 is going to bring us back into right relationship with her one way or another. And when we talk

00:43:28.300 about resiliency, we think about the role of social movements to be navigating this period

00:43:33.600 of constant collapse and rebirth. And I don't know exactly what that means in terms of leaving

00:43:40.740 behind the concept of the Anthropocene other than the sense that right now we support in

00:43:48.480 Wildfire a number of grassroots movement organizations for whom everything feels

00:43:54.820 under attack by the Trump administration and everything feels on fire. And we're looking at

00:44:00.880 how can we transform the existing systems in our society of governance so that we can navigate

00:44:07.640 them better, meaning, for example, you know, who the president is has a material impact when the

00:44:13.780 next hurricane hits, you know, a president Trump versus, you know, President Sanders, when when

00:44:21.280 the hurricane hits Puerto Rico, there's a there's a huge material difference. And yet at the same

00:44:26.480 time, there is the longer view of that this this civilization does have a timeline and,

00:44:35.980 And it's coming to an end where we are in in a great turning and at the end of an era and

00:44:42.140 You know leftists for a long time have been predicting that capitalism is going to collapse under the weight of its own

00:44:48.640 contradictions

00:44:49.840 And I believe that we are we are in the generation where that's finally going to to happen where the real

00:44:55.500 superstructure of our economy is of course ecology and

00:44:59.660 You know the latest UN reports

00:45:03.160 Estimates a timeline for that that's quite fast

00:45:05.980 And so we're thinking about what in that context, what is the role of social movements when the

00:45:11.260 terrain under our feet itself is shifting? So I'm curious, Ayanna, if that kind of gets in the

00:45:16.460 direction of what you're talking about, or if the question was more pointed around the term

00:45:20.280 Anthropocene in particular. No, I loved where you took it. I think it's a kind of a strange

00:45:27.380 question, because in one way, I think, or whether we're putting energy into certain,

00:45:32.520 let's just say the Anthropocene like part of me says whether we're putting energy into it or not

00:45:37.960 is happening but then the other part of me thinks about how we are moving through this crisis and

00:45:46.000 and I know Joshua you've previously spoken about the difference between organizing to stop the

00:45:50.880 climate crisis versus navigating through it with the former being impossible but the latter full

00:45:57.480 of opportunity. So I think about this with the term Anthropocene, because it's something that

00:46:03.920 I think a lot about, but I wonder, does it kind of paralyze us? Or, you know, I think about

00:46:12.680 conversations I've had with other guests and this idea of identifying with, whether it's the

00:46:19.320 oppressor or identifying with the oppressor system and how that can entangle us within it

00:46:27.900 rather than allowing us to potentially move through it. And it's something that I don't

00:46:32.700 feel like I really, and maybe this is a gray area thing again, and maybe it's really embodying the

00:46:37.920 dichotomy of it all and it's not this or that, but instead it's a mixture of all of it. But I would

00:46:44.180 be interested to hear more about what this shift entails in terms of rather than trying to stop

00:46:51.800 but instead navigate through you know what sort of planning is necessary for a just transition

00:46:58.740 away from this system of oppression and climate crisis and into

00:47:05.760 another system that is full of opportunity that that is um not it's of course it's challenging

00:47:14.380 but potentially it can yeah it can just open us up to so much more i think i'm um probably

00:47:23.720 stretching my imagination a bit more than my wisdom as i answer this question but um

00:47:32.320 when i think about what it takes for transformation to really happen like that i i'll think about

00:47:40.860 myself as an example i can think about other groups as well there is some amount of pain

00:47:49.460 or loss or perhaps a rite of passage that has happened that has brought me to a point where

00:47:58.580 nothing can ever be the same again and with that tremendous pain uh that catapults me into whatever

00:48:09.000 next stage of my own evolutionary development is being able to either i'm forced beyond my choice

00:48:17.540 uh because of life circumstances or i have some choice but i have a lot of assistance

00:48:26.820 in that sort of rite of passage.

00:48:30.080 I can think about moments in my life

00:48:33.160 that really transformed me

00:48:34.660 were when I lost my home,

00:48:37.320 when I lost my father,

00:48:39.640 when I became a teenager

00:48:41.560 and was no longer supported by a public school

00:48:44.520 and I had to like figure life out after that.

00:48:47.320 It was like these moments came

00:48:48.920 and I was suddenly forced to,

00:48:52.040 I was initiated and forced into this next chapter.

00:48:56.060 and in groups there are also moments when what previously the shape that they held the structure

00:49:05.920 that supported them no longer serves them and must be shed or else that group will not be as

00:49:13.540 effective anymore we're beyond that point as human beings but it still doesn't change what it takes

00:49:21.420 for us to truly transform and i think that whether we are attached to that concept of

00:49:29.300 the anthropocene or not to make a true transition means we've got to make a just transformation

00:49:36.220 and that is likely going to be through pain through loss through chaos and destruction

00:49:44.280 that forces people into a completely new way of being because they have no way of accessing what

00:49:52.080 existed before, collapse of the financial system, a new, our next recession, or things like this

00:50:01.320 that affect our material lives in ways that force us to respond differently. Or we have a lot of

00:50:09.080 assistance and we are a part of groups that are working hard to make that transition who are

00:50:15.180 doing the work to create those compelling visions to create new governing systems and to expand

00:50:22.200 their sense of self to be working in collaboration with spirit with land with all the non-human

00:50:32.280 beings that also inhabit this place in order to find the way through in order to find what right 0.98

00:50:39.060 relationship does exist so that they may navigate through it rather than try and stop it and we

00:50:46.340 don't know what that looks like and we can say just by looking around the world and seeing

00:50:51.560 the infinite number of cultures and ways that people have survived that there will not be one

00:51:00.900 way there will not be a handful of ways but it will depend upon kind of micro circumstances what

00:51:08.920 What kind of governance and what kind of worldview and what kind of actual systems and cultures

00:51:16.820 and practices allow people to navigate through it.

00:51:20.560 And those are going to come about through groups and their place and the resources or

00:51:27.740 circumstances that they're within.

00:51:30.280 Their particular context are going to shape so much of that.

00:51:33.700 And that's where we then kind of move from the Anthropocene where it's really about the

00:51:37.960 human influence, and see that this next era will be determined greatly by the forces of our planet.

00:52:07.960 I was singing to your people.

00:52:08.800 Warriors, wake up warriors, the sun's risen, now is the time to live in our vision, wake

00:52:17.980 up warriors, wake up warriors, the sun's risen, now is the time to live in our vision, wake

00:52:28.760 up warriors so for my last question although i really wish it wasn't i wish we had many hours

00:52:41.300 to continue diving in together but i'm thinking of this term and i may totally mispronounce it

00:52:49.040 but i think it's something like solastasia or solastasia and it's a term coined by glenn

00:52:55.760 Albrecht, which he defined as, quote, the pain, melancholia, or distress caused by the loss or

00:53:02.820 lack of solace and the sense of desolation connected to the present state of one's home

00:53:08.580 and territory. It is the lived experience of negative environmental change, the homesickness

00:53:15.420 you have when you are still at home, end quote. And I think many of us, if not all of us, can

00:53:22.600 relate to this sentiment especially those of us who are so deeply aware of the current transition

00:53:29.580 that is occurring and the profound loss and and trauma that it entails and while we must of course

00:53:37.220 honor these truths we also cannot allow ourselves to become overwhelmed with the pain so as movement

00:53:44.840 facilitators how do you wade through these heavy realities while still retaining joy

00:53:51.700 and i guess the other question is is how do we operate in these spaces of contradiction

00:53:58.840 and really move into our day-to-day lives without getting stuck in the last week ayana my phone has

00:54:08.180 rang maybe six or seven times with folks that I have either recently been in touch with or I

00:54:17.080 haven't heard from in a very long time reaching out to ask how can they create their own grief

00:54:24.760 ritual to deal with what's happening on a daily basis at home it's like this not so subtle but

00:54:35.860 pretty quiet constant shift towards losing everything i love

00:54:42.980 and there's both the kind of anticipatory kind of anxiety or kind of premature grief i would say

00:54:55.780 that comes along with seeing the way that things are changing and knowing not knowing what will be

00:55:02.760 lost, but knowing there will be significant loss. And then there is the turning the corner

00:55:13.080 in your own neighborhood and seeing the gentrification that has displaced many

00:55:21.120 people that you love and no longer know where they even live. Or the magical place that you

00:55:28.340 visited often as a child and through your teens and now as an adult come to find is clear-cut.

00:55:37.340 The places that we that we love that like we are so intimate with Francis Weller names as the first

00:55:45.000 gateway of grief being everything that we love we will lose guaranteed no no exception including

00:55:54.440 our own life. And it's our belief that that's not something we can stop, right? Like there are ways

00:56:02.660 that we can slow down a lot of the devastation that's happening. There's ways that we can

00:56:08.900 work toward policies that are going to shift the way that gentrification is happening. But this

00:56:14.940 change and loss is going to be a part of our lives. And increasingly so with the climate change and

00:56:22.580 chaos that we're already experiencing and so we have to honor the parts of ourselves that are

00:56:32.300 experiencing that grief that absolute fear rage shock numbness all of that or else it we start

00:56:43.240 to compartmentalize ourselves and show up as less of ourselves so coming back to the conversation

00:56:48.860 about power, we cannot be powerful in times of great loss if we cannot honor the pain

00:56:58.480 and the grief and the feelings that come along with that loss.

00:57:03.500 It's impossible.

00:57:05.580 And the joy that we want to be able to experience that's also like experienced in this sense

00:57:10.980 of fluidity and this sense of being like this feeling of adaptation, that's also on the

00:57:17.580 other side of releasing those feelings so they're kind they kind of come hand in hand even though

00:57:25.060 it seems like we should let's move toward our joy i know there's someone in my life who um that's a

00:57:30.580 big part of their work is helping people pursue their joy like move that and away from the things

00:57:37.080 that bring us weight bring us um more of the like harder heavier emotions however what we experience

00:57:47.480 and working with groups is that if we don't move toward, if we allow that silence to exist,

00:57:54.440 where we just keep trying to move toward the new strategy or towards that compelling vision,

00:58:00.240 and we leave out the part where we have to go into the pain, into the conflict, then we're not

00:58:06.340 bringing our whole selves along with us. So there's so much to be explored and developed in

00:58:12.760 our lives to create containers and space for us to really honor what's happening on the day-to-day

00:58:18.420 basis and what we're doing right now is exploring how we can at least do that on like a regularly

00:58:23.820 occurring basis to allow folks to like really tend to the parts of ourselves that are hurt

00:58:30.780 and broken by what we're experiencing at home home being wherever we are

00:58:42.760 thank you for listening to for the wild podcast i'm ayanna young the music you heard today was

00:59:07.120 from Peace Poets and a Wildfire Workshop.

00:59:10.780 I'd like to thank our podcast production team,

00:59:13.800 our co-producer and editor, Andrew Storrs,

00:59:16.480 our co-producer and writer, Francesca Glassbell,

00:59:19.600 communications director, Aaron Wise,

00:59:22.240 music coordinator, Carter Lou McElroy,

00:59:25.000 and co-managing directors, Mara Joy and Melanie Younger.

00:59:29.060 Please rate us on iTunes if you haven't already

00:59:31.460 and sign up for our newsletter at forthewild.world

00:59:34.440 and find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

00:59:39.220 Thanks so much and until next time.

For The Wild - May 08, 2020

Homebound： Transforming Toxic Movement Culture with THE WILDFIRE PROJECT ⧸180

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