00:00:00.000over the past few months i have journeyed to the yukon in partnership with illuminating
00:00:14.060worldviews illuminating worldviews serves as a space to examine the worldviews amidst which
00:00:19.800we find ourselves and see how they actively shape the material realities of our lives
00:00:25.340This project, rooted and colored by the land of the Yukon, makes space for questioning, examination, and future visioning centered in indigenous ideology and the sentiment of journeying.
00:00:38.700In person and on the land, I had the chance to speak with incredible thought leaders with deep connections to the Yukon, all with a live audience in the beautiful city of Whitehorse, except for the last event, which was in Dawson City.
00:00:55.940Though this series is deeply local, it has broad implications for our culture as a whole, and I'm so excited to share it with you.
00:01:03.920This series was produced thanks to the generous support of the team at Illuminating Worldviews, held by the River Collective, and the Northern Council for Global Cooperation.
00:01:13.680We are so grateful to the organizers, speakers, and audience members who made this series possible, and also a very big thank you to the land of the Yukon, the boreal forest, the rivers, the lakes.
00:01:26.320I am honored to have been asked to be a part of this.
00:01:33.920in this episode i'm joined by aben o'grady and jackie olson to discuss art creativity and work
00:01:52.920that transforms our relationship to place through creation dr aben o'grady is the program director
00:01:59.160of the yukon school of visual arts in trondack hedgewin territory dawson city yukon obin's
00:02:05.160research creation practice is concerned with artist-led schools the ethics of site-specific
00:02:11.080and land-based artworks and artist engagements with rural places jackie olson was born and
00:02:17.560raised in dawson city and is a citizen of the trondack hedgewin first nation trained as a
00:02:23.000painter, Jackie received a BFA from the Alberta College of Art in 1992, and has been creating
00:02:29.160and learning new art forms since. Jackie's work has been featured in exhibitions across Canada,
00:02:34.680including the Walter Phillips Gallery, Harcourt House, and a recent solo exhibition at the Odd
00:02:41.480gallery every step of the way is a process even to the weaving with the
00:03:09.480process it. That time it takes you to break down all those materials and look at what you have
00:03:16.160available is going to guide you in how everything comes back together. This is the spot you should
00:03:26.620be because it will never be disturbed and you will, once you build your willow farm, you will have that willow.
00:03:39.480Oh, hello, everyone. Feels nice to be at this point of a hot day where we can just relax and feel the cool breeze and get into some deep conversation with each other.
00:03:53.360And I'm looking out at each other, the audience, because at some point we're going to open this up and it'd be really wonderful to hear some of your voices chime into this conversation with the three of us.
00:04:04.500um but for now it's gonna be us three up here and i had the pleasure of uh having a tour of soba
00:04:15.080today and i was so i just felt so good being in that space um it was clean and bright and
00:04:26.960the energy could move so freely there and i'm really grateful to you two and anyone in the
00:04:34.120room who has been a part of making this happen. It's such a gift to the community. And I think
00:04:40.580the wider world as a space where we can come together and explore together through our thoughts
00:04:47.560and our creativity and our hearts. So just wanting to give a moment of gratitude for this space
00:04:54.540that's been tended by this community. So I want to start off here being a bit personal. I think
00:05:02.920it's always so refreshing when we talk from our personal experiences because it's what we know
00:05:08.180and I'm thinking about the dimensions of art education and how they've shaped you both and
00:05:16.120maybe more particularly if you could speak to the experiences you've had with the land here
00:05:22.700and how that has shaped your craft and Avin we're starting with you. All right well I have
00:05:30.480lots to say about art education, as you might imagine. But speaking from experience, which I
00:05:36.840really appreciate that invitation, because it's like kind of nerve wracking sitting in front of
00:05:41.800this group of people, even though I know all of you. But I would say like my experience with art
00:05:52.580education and thinking about it critically started when I was a student at Sova in 2011.
00:05:59.080And I had loved school, and then I had entered into the post-secondary, and I struggled a lot.
00:06:08.360So I came to Sova already with a university experience. And when I traveled through that
00:06:15.440program with the cohort and was taught by Veronica Verkley and a whole bunch of other really kind
00:06:23.520people that kind of blew apart what I thought education could do. I saw these moments like
00:06:32.380we were invited to take real responsibility for our thoughts and ideas and then develop a language
00:06:39.100and articulate that and explain that and talk to people and then I uh and I think maybe that like
00:06:45.980that was the experience then I just chased that I went to to grad school and I studied education
00:06:50.820and I thought about art schools as places uh that gave um that were really sites of radical thought
00:06:57.260like where the most interesting thinking was happening because it was full of artists and
00:07:00.540then I started chasing after stories of art schools that had been started by artists
00:07:06.240and then um and then i had like the the greatest privilege of coming back to sova and and taking
00:07:13.220the reins and then actually studying the history of its development and as a really radical thing
00:07:19.440right there's a bunch of community community members that came together envisioned this
00:07:23.760envisioned an entire curriculum um and uh and then and made a school happen and uh and so then i was
00:07:33.060able to intertwine my own work at the school with the with like really critically thinking
00:07:40.040about what it means to have an art school in this place like on this land on this territory
00:07:44.500and what it means to have the the version of of curriculum that we deliver um and and how that
00:07:51.040relates to this place or how it brushes up or uh like it causes friction and uh and it definitely
00:07:57.640causes friction and so I'm I guess my yeah I've been thinking I've been lucky enough to be working
00:08:06.620at Sova and also thinking about it as my own artist material which which has like guided a
00:08:11.460lot of the work outside of or my artwork that I produce I'm not a high producer anymore but I do
00:08:19.040think about the the university walls and institutional walls and and you know all the
00:08:25.300policies all the meetings as material to be able to shift and and guide and sculpt and then
00:08:31.920in terms of land and our relationship to this place i've had so many humbling lessons
00:08:36.580uh and and i think and a lot and i think we were i was like maybe struggling a bit to to connect
00:08:43.740what we're doing at sova with actually being um responsible for the students that we bring in
00:08:50.640with being responsible stewards and guests and hosts
00:08:55.080and thinking about what responsibility we have
00:08:58.240to bringing people here to this territory.
00:09:00.880And I've learned a lot of lessons about that.
00:09:02.920But I think since Jackie has joined us,
00:09:05.040Jackie's thinking and theory and pedagogical approach
00:09:08.920has really helped us to ground a lot of the direction
00:09:13.520that we've been taking towards more place-based
00:09:17.580and land-based thinking about going outside.
00:09:20.640about like letting our students have saws
00:09:24.220and and uh yeah engaging in like some you know institutionally uh risky behaviors but
00:09:34.420but actually not like spiritually uh fulfilling behaviors and and pursuing that
00:09:39.880um i think that's i think that's where i'll end it
00:09:43.320saws huh what about those axes yeah um
00:09:59.300yeah thank you thanks everyone for coming it's great to see all the familiar faces
00:10:05.880yeah you know Dawson is my home was born and raised here and lived my life running the streets
00:10:16.780like most Dawsonites you know I always tell people I grew up in swamps and relics because
00:10:25.420it was all swampland you know and when the rush was over the dredges shut down everything just
00:10:34.980was left where it was so it was our playground um and the other part of me uh my grandma and
00:10:42.440grandpa they lived on the land they were born on the Dempster and they lived on the Dempster
00:10:47.400but they traveled all over this traditional territory so it was always a journey to go
00:10:53.400and find them and I loved those days when we went to find where they were uh so though you know
00:11:00.720that's my connection with the land. And I feel so fortunate that my grandparents lived into
00:11:09.240their hundreds and pretty much lived on the land their whole lives. So, you know, it was just
00:11:13.980natural, right? You don't think about the politics of society when you're growing up as a kid.
00:11:25.000And off I went to art school. I wasn't an artist. I was just going to be an administrator.
00:11:30.640And lo and behold, I come back as an artist with a degree in painting.
00:11:36.200I still do two-dimensional work, but there's no paint in it now.
00:11:42.340And that was one of the things that really kind of was picking at my brain when I was in school.
00:11:50.900The abundance of materials that we used every day that just went into a garbage can.
00:11:59.640You know, and it was just overwhelming to see that and to, and I never even really thought about environment, but it's something that hit me in my heart.
00:12:12.420So when I get back here and we're getting the art scene moving and great things are happening, and that's the beauty of Dawson, you know, as a community, and I believe strongly in community.
00:12:24.660um together we can move mountains and we've moved a lot of mountains and we've made a lot of things
00:12:32.580happen for our little town and uh very grateful that we have like-minded people that choose to
00:12:41.340live here and the arts uh have really brought a wonderful new fabric to our crazy little community
00:29:34.980yeah i feel like you're the way that you teach 2d studio which is like our students go out
00:29:43.900spend the first couple weeks gathering materials like the process is so embedded in that and and
00:29:49.600not fully clear steps on why they're doing such hard work but at the end like one of our one of
00:29:55.420our students parents that just graduated said oh they're never going to look at a piece of paper
00:30:00.140in the same way again like after you've just been like like gathering fibers boiling them like uh
00:30:06.320yeah you really care about those pieces of paper and then and then by by proxy like by extension
00:30:12.180care about the artwork that's made like really deeply um yeah yeah i think that's with the inks
00:30:19.560as well because we did natural inks um and making pigments and um you know all of a sudden they're
00:30:26.420looking at their food you know and it's the same with paper with the paper you know if it's fibrous
00:30:31.920you can make paper from it so everything in your mind just kind of switches I remember that when I
00:30:38.820was in school in Victoria of being open to the world in front of you and looking at things from
00:30:47.800a different perspective you know oh that's just a twig on the ground but if you kind of switch
00:30:53.940and you start to look at it it changes right and that and that's for everything that's out there
00:31:00.300like I was in Vegas I got dragged off to Vegas no I got homework to do no no you come so I'm down
00:31:08.640there and there was all that you know the new Vegas world on that different street or whatever
00:31:14.440and so there was a lot of construction and I remember looking at this little nylon
00:31:20.320on a rope that was sticking out of the ground in all different directions and I was just fascinated
00:31:27.820with that and I'm like oh my god I'm an art student yeah I think maybe that's something
00:31:32.880that we share in common or something that I've like kind of gleaned from you is like looking
00:31:37.060really chasing those moments where you that switch your perspective and then and like my
00:31:43.360I guess my process if I think about the word process I don't think about my practice as being
00:31:49.880process based i think about my practices being like a series of getting stopped or stunted and
00:31:55.640then trying to figure out ways to get around that or figuring like finding places where there's like
00:32:00.660friction or tension where worldviews meet where um disciplines meet where things that aren't really
00:32:07.820that that exist alongside each other um but that could be connected that that stuff's really
00:32:13.440interesting to me and i try and bring that into what we do at sova uh like we we we really aren't
00:32:21.320quite intentional about what we invite our students into and how we would like them to
00:32:24.920be as guests here but then also we kind of switch that and think about them as hosts eventually too
00:32:30.300because because the community does such a good job of of of welcoming and placing people here
00:32:36.060and then and then so those then those moments of friction or tension are when i when i look
00:32:41.860beyond sova and i look as an artist here as a community member and someone who loves this place
00:32:45.740really deeply like where aren't we allowed to go to like what aren't we talking about or why can't
00:32:53.340we talk about that or like why can't we be in this building why is there so much tension between
00:32:58.140uh the plaster mining industry and like and then other elements of the community and and so and can
00:33:05.160we figure out a platform uh or a way to connect and talk to one another find a place of of
00:33:11.380understanding in a respectful way in a loving way in a way that that extends all the love that we
00:33:17.640share towards this community yeah those are the moments that we get that I've been chasing I think
00:33:22.120so far and maybe art is one of the only spaces that can bring those hard conversations to a place
00:33:31.760of softening or creativity or, you know, it kind of, it's a bit indirect maybe, which can invite
00:33:43.380people in to be able to talk about hard things or things that they feel divided about. I also live
00:33:50.620in a small town and understand that most of us actually really love the space that we live. And
00:33:58.880And even those of us who think the other side or the other, some other people aren't protective, I think a lot of people actually are thinking that they are protecting the community and the home that they love.
00:34:11.620And so how do you find those places of unification and common threads? And how do you talk about the hard things? And how do you create something together, invite people into a space where everyone can feel like they're being heard and that they matter?
00:34:31.540Because I think that's something else that I've noticed, that people get really triggered if they feel that other people think that they're not valuable, their opinions don't matter, their ideas are bad, and that they're just generally ostracized from the future planning of where they call home.
00:34:51.800And I know that the two of you have probably a lot to say on this and have, like what you were saying, kind of gotten into the mud and wrestled with these ideas of how to bring people together and invite folks to create a future that's beautiful.
00:35:09.880and also it also meets people where they're at so maybe we could talk about how art could be that
00:35:18.360invitational space to start having hard conversations or let's just say continue
00:35:23.920the hard conversations about how to live together especially in rural places yeah definitely I think
00:35:32.340you know as a small community and whether people come for this summer or whatever
00:35:37.840um you become a part of this community and i think as individuals we should all
00:35:48.880um be aware of what we're contributing you know every step we take we're impacting somehow so
00:36:01.220how do we open the doors for dialogue how do we create the language where artists can talk to
00:36:10.380miners you know which is kind of where we ended up because it really irked me that our land is
00:36:18.640being eaten up and pushed aside and there's no thought as to what goes back and that's because
00:36:27.060the regulations just say mound it over but is that enough right and maybe that's a conversation with
00:36:35.760the with the governments the powers that be but that's not going to go anywhere so i like to pull
00:36:43.420it back and like why can't we just go and start you know um in reality the miners don't have
00:36:52.840surface rights. As a Trondac witch in, I can go and plant trees and flowers and wherever I want,
00:37:00.840right? Put my berries back. You know, my elders can't go get berries because they're too far.
00:37:06.460So let's make our land that's accessible and already disturbed into something that is
00:37:13.740sustainable and useful for us. So that was my initial approach, right? And so how can we engage
00:37:21.620minors because you want to have that relationship with them. You don't want to have the angst
00:37:27.980because we're not going to get anywhere with that, right? So, yeah, we decided
00:37:33.960maybe we'd start there. We started easy. You know, I know Favrons and so I went and talked to them
00:37:43.540about did they have somewhere in their block of claims
00:43:50.940One thing I've noticed thinking about plants and restoration reclamation is how many plants
00:43:58.800I know that I use that do really well in disturbed places.
00:44:03.340And I feel like they come into disturbed places to be accessible and to be seen and to like
00:44:09.740the plant world knows how to restore on their own.
00:44:13.200And it's just beautiful to see that and to feel taken care of in that way as a human. And so I could imagine what it would be to go into places that have been damaged, terraformed, and to create sites of medicine, berries, abundance, that could very well grow there again.
00:44:35.800And I feel really personally drawn to this project.
00:44:41.520I spent many years in the temperate rainforest regions of the lower 48 in the States and was working with redwood forest and temperate rainforest down there.
00:44:55.120But the restoration was really based off the logging industry.
00:44:58.380So it wasn't about restoring for art or community even, but it was how do you restore for the next harvest? But what I really am drawn to about what you're speaking to is it's restoring in a place-based, community-based way that also has that magic of art.
00:45:17.680So I guess, you know, sitting here and just loving this idea, I'm like, well, what are the roadblocks? What are the challenges? And what are ways that you see through these challenges to making this reality of the map and the many spaces, fulfilling that vision?
00:45:36.540Well, I mean, there's many. Most of all, when you're thinking of a large canvas, you're thinking of large everything, right? So resources are always, I don't think we have a shortage of ideas. And that's where it's important that we have buy-in from the miners, because they have the big equipment, they could move the earth.
00:46:03.340and if we're able to work with them from the beginning they're already thinking about how
00:46:10.840dirt moves right at the most cost-effective way so let's add reclamation at the beginning
00:46:20.440and let's move the dirt so maybe we only have to move it once in your reclamation process
00:46:28.200but it ties into what an artist's idea would be for that space when it's complete also if
00:46:37.680you're talking about ecosystems and berries you know that's that's science right and that's kind
00:46:45.260of why we did the willow basket we need a bunch of skills and knowledge to come together to make
00:46:53.460a lot of these projects happen like last summer in august we uh we worked with oso planning michael
00:47:02.960mcclain to help us kind of like vision what might like because it's a massive project and we're used
00:47:10.660to working like this indoors like on our you know in our like process based like fibers and like
00:47:17.860working on a scale that is winterized so we invited um michael to come up and help us just
00:47:24.460like plan even like figure out how to wrap our heads around working at scale and then in in that
00:47:31.360process realize that there's like some pretty big gaps that we need to fill like how do we think at
00:47:35.960scale and so we we were looking at like you know we went out to the site we looked at what was there
00:47:42.320and we mapped it out and then we looked at what plants were there and we and we thought about what
00:47:47.460it would look like to to mimic some of those plants in our sculpture but then realized maybe
00:47:52.740there was like a we were kind of stopped at even being able to like think about what it would look
00:47:57.360like to make a model or like how do we pitch this artwork how do we even talk to about it about it
00:48:02.820to one another so that's that's been kind of like my my coordinating mind has gone to okay we've
00:48:09.600identified some training gaps how do we build the skills here to to get art like to get the artists
00:48:15.640who want to be part of this project ready to be able to imagine at that scale to be able to explain
00:48:20.760their ideas to be able to map it onto a site and for us to eventually bring that to someone who
00:48:27.420could read it and help us create the work. The other thing I'm just thinking of is time is a
00:48:34.240huge factor because when you're working with a land it's working on its own time and so when
00:48:39.940you're designing or creating the reclamation project you have to be willing to invest time
00:48:49.280and you may not see your vision for 10 20 years right because as things grow because you're
00:48:57.100starting from scratch and yes plants do have their place and most times it's you know the weeds the
00:49:06.160willow the um um grasses and all that but they all play a part in the restoration of that
00:49:13.280of that earth because it's not ready maybe for the the um flora and fauna that are important
00:49:23.140to our into our um us living here and existing here you know as darcy said we've been here
00:49:31.04010,000 years we're still here you know and you have to have that relationship with the land you
00:49:36.980have to understand it and you have to be able to work with it and we've lost that in a very short
00:49:44.080time you know it's like a blip in the screen of who we are and so much has changed in that time
00:49:54.140And it's really important that we start to ground ourselves again and get back to what's important.
00:50:18.360When we're looking like we've we've looked at sites with miners and they've been talking about like three million years ago, like restoring a riverbed, you know, ancient riverbeds as like a form of reclamation.
00:50:29.480And then moving, looking forward, we're thinking about the timeline of different people who have been elected or we're thinking about an annual funding cycle or we're thinking about like, you know, money.
00:50:39.380We don't hate we hate like hate talking about it, but we need it to make this project happen.
00:50:43.620And that's really determined, like that is that shortens the length in life and vitality of our projects by so much. And so, yeah, time is a thing that comes up. What's the lifetime of a placer mine? What's the lifetime of this project? Are we ready to be committed to this for 20 years, potentially 20, 50, 10,000 years?
00:51:02.640Yeah, I find whenever I commit to a land project, it's decades in the making, and it's never done, but it isn't a short term goal. And that's part of the beauty of it. And that's part of the relationship that I think you're both speaking to how to build a relationship, how to be in right relationship.
00:51:23.860And something that you had mentioned that I'm really curious about is what's the difference or how does it look different when you're invited in at the beginning of the process where you can think about the reclamation from day one versus when you're invited after the earth has been moved and then you're reclaiming it later on.
00:51:46.600Yeah, we talked quite a bit about that last August, and we really kind of thought, well, it would kind of make sense to be involved much quicker, like at the beginning, when all that, you know, brain activity is happening and I got to move dirt, I got to move this, I got to move that.
00:52:06.600But to have a vision of where it ends up is going to be beneficial to the artist, to the miner, you know, and yeah, as for now, we're on reclaimed land that already has a lot of willow, it already has its ecosystem established for whatever it is, and we're trying to work within it.
00:52:32.660Which means, do we bring in the big dozers again and move everything around to make what we want? Or are we making small changes and adding art, you know, to that area that becomes of interest to our community?
00:52:56.060You know, I'm hoping it'll become a place where you'll want to go for a walk and go along.
00:53:01.560You know, Darcy's talked to us about trail markers and, you know, we can think about that and how we bring that back to the land in a respectful way and a mindful, I'm always talking about mindful way of doing things.
00:56:07.940The music from this episode is from Cole Pulse's new album, Lands and Eternal, courtesy of Leaving Records, Chas Primick and Lior Holtzman.
00:56:18.200To learn more about this series and access the study guide, please visit forthewild.world.com.