00:01:17.580she offers her clients space and perspective
00:01:19.940to empower themselves on their own unique path.
00:01:23.600while offering classes and workshops that honor ancestral healing for those living in the liminal
00:01:29.100spaces empowered magical practices and reclaiming your birthright as a sovereign being she also is
00:01:37.280a program presenter for the los angeles public library offering divination workshops to teens
00:01:43.360and tweens well marcella i am so grateful to be speaking with you today thank you for being on
00:01:52.380for the Wild podcast. Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here today.
00:01:59.280I think we're going to have some really good back and forth. And in preparation for our
00:02:06.460conversation, I've really been thinking about the ways in which anything that is perceived
00:02:13.480as being outside of intellect and rationality has been deemed unworthy, unreal, and even
00:02:21.880demonized by the over-culture. And I think this is certainly true when it comes to the realms which
00:02:27.860your work traverses through divination, ritual, spell, and perhaps the overall work of healing
00:02:35.880as well. So to begin, I wonder if you could speak to the importance of acknowledging the tremendous
00:02:41.920power held by magical, intuitive practices and practitioners as we seek to spin ourselves out
00:02:51.080of the reductionist intellect driven mindset that we find ourselves mired in? Well, I think the
00:02:59.320first thing to acknowledge is that just because we can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
00:03:08.360There's a strong desire to connect with the tangible and only see that as valid. But I mean,
00:03:16.220we breathe oxygen and we cannot see it. And yet we know it exists. I think that the absence of
00:03:27.400magic can lead to the absence of creativity, the absence, or I would say, loose connection
00:03:35.500to our own emotions even. And there needs to be a balance in order to live a full spectrum
00:03:44.520transformed life. So I, I tend not to intellectualize it too much, not because I don't
00:03:52.920think it's worthy of intellect, but perhaps if we looked at the invisible, the unseen,
00:04:02.320and perhaps the fantastical or magical as something that is interwoven in our day-to-day,
00:04:09.920just as breathing our air or doing the day-to-day things then perhaps it wouldn't be so
00:04:19.720or uh or feel like it's not tangible or unreachable or that only a select few have
00:04:27.740access to it because i think the magical the mystical is available to anyone who
00:04:33.380desires to connect with it. Yeah. Well, this leads me to my second question, which is sort of
00:04:45.500another general inquiry into how we might be able to aid others in their healing journey with
00:04:51.580integrity, while also recognizing that we are all forced to function in a colonial capitalist world.
00:04:59.680On the one hand, I'm sure myself and listeners are familiar with how often folks label themselves as healers and shamans and witches in order to gain personal profit and notoriety.
00:05:13.560And on the other hand, I think about how practitioners who want to do this with integrity are also trapped living in a system that requires us to be transactional in order to survive.
00:05:23.540so i'd love to hear your response to whatever tendril holds your interest in terms of
00:05:30.220how to practice with integrity or the current accessibility of these offerings
00:05:35.140you know i have a lot of mixed feelings about the you know commercialization and like like
00:05:44.760i guess having to do this or not even having to but there's there's a lot of responsibility
00:05:51.080that comes with doing this work and I think that if you are placing yourself in the position
00:06:00.580of being a vessel to do your healing work you really need to do your own work personally
00:06:10.200and there is so much to weed through now because of the gosh I don't even know where to begin with
00:06:17.720this you know there's like there's so many feelings that come up in me around this because
00:06:22.460for me personally because that's all I can share with you out of integrity is my own experience
00:06:29.420right like I can speak firsthand from my experience I cannot speak for others
00:06:33.060but I can say that I did not want to do this work not initially it's painful and
00:06:42.220I think that there are people who are genuinely called to this work. And I think as we are coming
00:06:50.800out of a dying, decaying capitalist, colonialist society that is crumbling, but we're still
00:06:58.480existing in it, but it's still falling apart. There is more of a call for people, for healers
00:07:03.720to rise up and create community and create offerings and space to help other people
00:07:09.240grow and evolve through these changing times. And because of the nature of the way our society
00:07:18.500as a whole works, there needs to still be survival, right? We can't do everything
00:07:26.600for the good graces of our, you know, just because we still have bills to pay and,
00:07:36.120rent to cover or mortgages or mouths to feed. So yes, there's this desire to
00:07:45.760do this work, but also have to take care of yourself. Now, I think during the last 18,
00:07:53.16019 months, yes, we saw an increase in people leaning into healing work or self-proclaiming
00:08:02.460these titles, which they have not earned or had the life experience to go through
00:08:07.920and claim them. And, you know, it's kind of a challenge. It's a challenge to navigate that
00:08:16.680when you're hurting as someone who's seeking help or support. And I think this is a really
00:08:25.720big lesson in discernment right now that we are having to learn as a collective, as a human
00:08:32.960community about being discerning about who to work with and who not to work with. I'm sorry,
00:08:41.180I'm feeling very hard. I'm having a hard time with my words right now. And I'm just putting
00:08:48.520that out there because some of these things are, I can't speak for a whole collective.
00:08:56.680I can only speak from my own experience. Do I think there's a lot of, you know, maybe
00:09:03.020people who are capitalizing and doing this work without integrity? Yes. Do I think there are a
00:09:09.740lot of people who are in their integrity and authenticity? Yes. Do I think people feel the
00:09:16.520need to be pushed to some level of expertise before they're way, way before they're ready.
00:09:22.600Absolutely. And that's why it's of the utmost important for as individuals to continually
00:09:30.380be checking ourselves and going, okay, maybe I'm going towards this for the wrong reasons.
00:09:39.440you know we have to go forward and then we take breaks we have to turn the mic proverbial mic if
00:09:50.640you will over to others who have a voice or have something to share about how we're going to
00:09:56.340thrive during the decay of an old system
00:10:03.780and I hope that that gives some clarity to that question I just have a lot of feelings that I
00:10:13.160haven't um I haven't sorted through fully because I am also in that same space of you know I've been
00:10:21.420doing this work as my soul income since 2009 and I've seen it go through waves
00:10:30.800and doing it anyway you know just hearing your personal experience is valuable to understanding
00:10:42.420what healers go through when they're trying to
00:10:47.600live into their purpose and skill and also survive in a capitalist colonial system so
00:10:58.740yeah I do feel that there was clarity and I appreciate you sharing personal experiences
00:11:06.500that you have to navigate through and yeah another topic I'm really eager to explore with
00:11:16.960you is the intersections of algorithms divination and social media and this is a topic that I've
00:11:24.400really only begin, yeah, only begun to think about. But for reference, I've noticed that with
00:11:30.960the rise of social media, especially Instagram and TikTok, I see more and more folks giving
00:11:36.840generic readings and claiming that if you've stumbled across their video, the message is
00:11:42.660meant for you. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, so I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on this in terms of
00:11:50.060ethics and the energy of the cards and whether or not we should view algorithms as some sort of
00:11:56.600magical conduit in themselves uh yes and no i mean again it all comes back to discernment
00:12:06.020right like if you know your own energy if you know how you feel right like if you know what
00:12:12.680you're feeling like and then you open up an app and you know like some random tiktok comes up and
00:12:18.780is like, oh my gosh, if you're seeing this on this day and you're like, oh my gosh, I am right.
00:12:23.680Like check in and go, how do, as you, you know, and you go, you will know within the first
00:12:29.720three seconds, is this for me? You can ask yourself that internally. Is this really for me?
00:12:35.520And you will get a yes or a no. Yes. There is this rise in, I mean, you have to be also again,
00:12:43.160discerning and good at just looking at things as they are. If you open up to an account that
00:12:48.840is showing you something, they haven't actually shuffled the cards. They haven't actually pulled
00:12:52.500them. They're just holding one up. I mean, really like, did that person really tune in?
00:12:58.820You know, there's definitely been times where I've been pulled in, um, to a thing, a reading,
00:13:06.600you know, via TikTok, because I was in the algorithm, right? After liking a certain type
00:13:14.740of video, I'm now pulled into this algorithm of collective readings, right? And we can tailor
00:13:19.980the algorithm, by the way, we can tailor it by what we do consume and what we don't consume.
00:13:27.960So I do suggest periodically going through your accounts and look at what are you mindlessly
00:13:36.520consuming and go through and do some editing and some energetic housekeeping, if you will,
00:13:43.940through those platforms. Sometimes they do hit, but again, the key thing
00:13:52.000is they're not all going to hit. They might feel urgent. That's the other thing. Anything to me
00:13:58.720that screams urgency or fear, I usually shut it down right away. Because that is not the kind of
00:14:10.260anxious energy. That's reading fear. That's not reading the soul or the spirit. Now, does it mean
00:14:21.620that the reading has to be light or positive? No, it doesn't. It can have depth and feel a little
00:14:31.020intense. But anything I feel that is truly a message for you is going to hit you or land
00:14:38.700in a way that you feel it in your heart. Or maybe your shoulders relax and you go,
00:14:44.700okay, I need to pay attention. Anything that's making you feel like you're on edge or you're
00:14:49.980being baited. It's just drawing your attention is just that. So I think there used to be more
00:14:59.120magic in the algorithm, but with the influx and the rise in popularity of anyone with, you know,
00:15:08.800a divination deck or people that can go live and just do readings, you're going to have to sort
00:15:15.440through more things, right? Just like we have to sort through where we, you know, source our food
00:15:22.400from, where we, if you get your hair done, you know, there's a bajillion types of hairstylists.
00:15:30.420I'm just using that as an example, because it's like, think of how many salons, barbershops,
00:15:36.080and boutique kind of salons are out there. You have to use your discernment, right? Find out
00:15:42.900who you like, who resonates, who's going to give you the feeling of, you know, what you need.
00:15:49.280You certainly don't just blanket statement them all. At least that's just my, you know, take on it.
00:16:00.120That's so helpful to hear you speak to this because I'm sure many listeners have been
00:16:06.980in these situations where it's hard to discern and decipher what to trust and I think a lot of
00:16:17.800that is learning how to trust oneself which is I think so much of what you're speaking to is
00:16:22.740checking in and saying is this for me and what does this feel like and definitely the overculture
00:16:30.540has done its darndest to make sure we don't trust ourselves. But I've also been thinking about
00:16:40.580how unfettered capitalism will really profit off of whatever it can, even that which it used to
00:16:49.160demonize. Just thinking into how many ancestral knowledge keepers were burned during Europe's
00:16:55.220witch hunts and now we fast forward to a place where the title of witch is becoming trendy
00:17:01.840so i just wonder what your thoughts are on this shift as someone who has been working in this
00:17:08.120realm long before it became clout worthy via social media and maybe even mainstream right
00:17:15.880like absolutely i have a lot of opinions on that and in when i first started voicing my opinion
00:17:24.780about those things around 2012, I, I would get a lot of like, you're being a gatekeeper
00:17:29.880and, you know, I get a lot of pushback, but it's unbelievable sometimes to me because the words
00:17:38.640don't really hold, um, what they mean anymore. You know, they become fashionable or like an
00:17:48.720archetype. And, you know, as someone not only like being kind of in this line of work, not
00:17:58.320intentionally at first, you know, being pushed into it and then, you know, finding out only like
00:18:06.240five years ago, I was reconnected with my biological father who I did not know growing up.
00:18:13.460so I was disconnected from my lineages on his side. And particularly over the last
00:18:18.580three months, I have gotten so much information about my family of origin and their connection to
00:18:26.820the magical wound and being persecuted for their connection to the other worlds and things like
00:18:34.960that. My great-grandmother was institutionalized in the 30s for seeing things, but also being in
00:18:45.220an interracial relationship in which she had my grandmother in an asylum. My grandmother actually
00:18:53.580read tarot cards at Woodstock, and she did makeup in a mortuary, and she'd like, you know,
00:19:02.580hear dead people. And these were not celebrated things. You know, these were things that were
00:19:09.100hidden. These were things that got you locked up in an asylum to birth your child. And that was not
00:19:15.660that long ago, the thirties. So not to mention all of the other generational traumas in my varying
00:19:23.780lineages that could not have their practices until the seventies. You know, I have, my mother is
00:19:31.660Italian Portuguese and even has some Coptic Egyptian descent and then my father is Wampanoag
00:19:38.740tribe Irish West African and Filipino and there are a lot of these lineages that were not allowed
00:19:47.980to practice or demonized and now people are self-proclaimed without actually doing the
00:19:56.200ancestral work or research, you know, to put back into their own personal healing before going and
00:20:05.840trying to help other people, which I think is really highly irresponsible. I'm not saying you
00:20:12.620can't go do your healing practice, but please work on your own line first, especially if there's pain
00:20:18.180there and um so yeah it can be very infuriating um but also at the same time you have to come to
00:20:33.620a point where you can be angry about it right or frustrated or upset or roll your eyes especially
00:20:41.680when they're marketing to people who are inspired quote unquote inspired by the work you do but
00:20:49.060they'll never give you the actual credit because they need to give you a surface cookie cutter
00:20:56.120version of that so they can make money and you know I don't want to sound bitter or resentful
00:21:06.460I'm not. Because I know that no matter what, if this goes out of fashion, and the next new thing
00:21:14.600comes up, I'm still going to be here. And I'm still going to be doing my work. And maybe one
00:21:20.500day, which won't be cool again. And I'll pick it up where I left it. Because I don't really like
00:21:27.580associating. I have such a weird relationship with that word now. You know, because I don't
00:21:35.580want to be lumped in to that, that category, you know, of, oh, you're one of those witch type types.0.98
00:21:57.580There's a path you've never seen. There's a place you've never been.0.83
00:22:57.380I would like to move into a conversation on ancestral healing, which is how I originally
00:23:10.700came across your work. And I think about this topic in connection to our deeply human desire
00:23:17.220to belong and how so many of us with disjointed families want to heal this lineage and in doing
00:23:25.800so are grounded to the earth and each other in a way that has been lost with modernity.
00:23:31.580For listeners who are unfamiliar, I wonder if you could share your experience with ancestral
00:23:36.520healing and the connections between healing familial trauma, being in right relationship
00:23:42.440with one another, and being a good earth steward.
00:23:45.240You know, I have to say that growing up, it was really, I had a really violent childhood, you know, early on. And then I also had this very like, so my mother, my mother is an addict and, you know, party monster and would like follow bands and stuff.
00:24:11.840and I'm telling you all this because this is with my origin story when I was very little
00:24:17.320I would spend a lot of time with my grandmother and I had this very like insulated Italian
00:24:26.880Catholic like Italian American Catholic world that was also deeply connected to some darker
00:24:34.060I would say activities um you know nefarious dealings and things like that and I was surrounded0.79
00:24:45.580by this identity that was pushed on me of being like you're Italian American and all of these
00:24:54.660other things about me were erased um as long as I was in that presence and there was always this
00:25:00.900part of me that knew I was other. The way people treated me as though I didn't belong, but like I
00:25:06.400was an inconvenience. And I had very strong ties and connections to spirits and things like that
00:25:12.280at a young age and no one to really talk to about it. And I always would connect to this idea. I was
00:25:18.120like, I am, this isn't all of me. And so my journey early on to discover who I was, was immediately
00:25:27.960met with this feeling of being other than. And my only connection to feel at home in this world
00:25:35.340for like, and think of it as like a little kid, a little girl, like four or five, was to think
00:25:42.120I was from somewhere else. Because I never felt like I belonged. As I got older, the search for
00:25:52.640myself turned into the annihilation of self because of that disjointed feeling and not
00:25:58.440feeling heard or understood, having dreams about people that I've never seen and in being
00:26:06.780told you're, you know, that you're delusional, even though you don't, you're in a family
00:26:12.260and you don't look like anyone. Fast forward to years of trying to find the biological link
00:26:22.900because I never knew my father and there were no answers. My mother was not helpful. She was very
00:26:28.980abusive. And digging up information and doing, you know, controversial to a lot of people,0.99
00:26:39.700but DNA tests and hiring private investigators and having my questions answered through some
00:26:46.680forms of science, but then also having no answers because they all led to dead ends.
00:26:52.300Magic and my art have been the only things that have been consistent in my life and my connection
00:26:57.540to creator universe. Those are the only things that I've felt deeply connected to consistently.
00:27:05.440so i turned to the invisible for support because none of the humans adults around me
00:27:15.340were capable of being that support and i grew up in a city so i didn't really have a connection
00:27:20.880to nature until i got older i actually didn't have a connection to nature until i moved west
00:27:25.920in 2006. And that changed some things, but it was mostly, I was determined to figure out why
00:27:40.720am I like this and do ancestral healing, whether or not they were present because I knew they were
00:27:47.120present in spirit, even if I did not have the physical beings around me or the stories to start
00:27:55.980with, I said, you know, I can still connect and give back healing, even if I don't know who they
00:28:01.900are. And through that process and using my own creativity, you know, one of the things I did
00:28:10.780early on was I drew a drawing of a tree and I wrote all along the tree, like the names of my
00:28:18.860mom and like a few other people that I knew their names. But then I wrote all over the tree in the
00:28:23.480branches or ancestor, ancestor, ancestor, ancestor, and made an altar because that's what I do. I use
00:28:32.160magic in conjunction with my physical life right and through that process I created an ancestor
00:28:40.740altar and got a candle dedicated to ancestors and I kid you not like within I think that candle
00:28:50.220burned for like three days and after years of no information when that candle finished
00:28:56.060all of this new information came to me relatives and it was just like breadcrumb trails
00:29:05.660and it only piqued my curiosity to keep going you know I started to get information I started
00:29:15.540to get names that I could add to that tree and other things and I continued to be dedicated
00:29:22.460even though I couldn't see them and even though I knew that they were good and bad on all sides
00:29:27.940it it felt very important move forward you know I find my biological father on accident
00:29:39.740move forward I find a cousin who gets me letters that are from the woman who took in my grandmother
00:29:48.100and the woman who took in my great grandmother fast forward to august i'm out on my ancestral
00:29:56.720homelands at least for some of my ancestors not all of them eating traditional food crying
00:30:03.240because there's something so familiar here
00:30:08.180so i think that it's so important for us to go into our root systems whether or not we know them
00:30:20.280whether or not we believe them good or bad or whatever in between
00:30:26.060and send that healing down the line so that we can show up so we can be a good ancestor to someone
00:30:36.360else because there are so many of these lineages that have just gone forward and have been selfish
00:30:41.960and have not left a legacy and legacy does not mean you know a mansion and a million dollars
00:30:49.340legacy is how are you going to leave the earth how are you going to leave
00:30:54.320this world how are you going to leave the structures or are you just out and you're
00:31:01.760going to hand off that responsibility to who's next. These are the things that I think about
00:31:10.620that no one in my family has ever thought about. Why? I don't know. Maybe I just don't want to come
00:31:20.340back, reincarnate again. Maybe I just don't want to leave a mess. I'm a firm believer in leaving
00:31:29.740things better than you found them it doesn't have to be perfect but you can always do better
00:31:35.740that's a really beautiful sentiment and something I
00:31:40.640really want to live by and like yeah I remember this one conversation I was having about
00:31:52.440I think it was with Steven Jenkinson it's like how do you die well well you have to live well
00:31:59.660And I think that, yeah, I don't want to leave a mess behind physically, psychically.
00:32:08.580I have thought a lot of times to myself that the intergenerational trauma stops with me
00:32:17.420and I felt really this kind of strange confidence in knowing that that I don't want to
00:32:25.160just keep passing along ancestral pain onto the next I mean there's a there's so much pain already
00:32:34.100in the world um which of course is you know it's coming from generations and generations of this type
00:32:44.740of uh disharmony or i don't really know the words for it but yeah right really yeah and we're gonna
00:32:54.980and the other thing is you know i'm not without like causing harm at different points in my journey
00:33:03.320I've caused harm. And because the thing is, I want to encourage people to know that you're
00:33:11.160going to mess up. You're not going to do it perfectly every time. There are a lot of relatives
00:33:18.000of mine that are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, who are you? You don't look like any of us. What are you
00:33:25.140trying to do? What are you trying to get? And my enthusiasm and my relentless search for truth
00:33:34.940has always gotten me in trouble. Also, my, you know, again, neuro, I'm neurodivergent,
00:33:43.560I'm autistic. I don't have the same operating system that neurotypical people do. So sometimes
00:33:51.580things can be miss, um, come off wrong, right. Or, or, um, be perceived in a way that's not
00:34:01.260respectful or, you know, just there's just been varying degrees. And again, you're going to mess
00:34:08.120up. I think it's important for, for us to learn how to mess up and do better next time, you know,
00:34:18.360but don't let that stop you from trying to do better you know because i see too many people
00:34:26.420give up well i can't do it right so i'm not going to do it at all which i think
00:34:29.700is not a healthy way to move forward either
00:34:33.400no searching for that type of perfection it's really just re-traumatizing um so yeah and0.97
00:34:45.440well as a follow-up i'd like to ask you about how we have pathologized folks particularly women in
00:34:54.400the past and how this relates to generational trauma and ancestral healing for example i think
00:35:01.560about the legacy of women who were targeted through the diagnosis of hysteria which was
00:35:07.460given to any woman who exhibited any sort of behavior that was out of the norm be it desire
00:35:15.040anxiety, etc. And interestingly enough, I've read that the height of hysteria diagnosis in America
00:35:23.000occurred during the same time that the women's rights movement was gaining traction.
00:35:29.060So I'd like, yeah. So I just love to ask a bit about how we can tend to and respond to this
00:35:36.720sort of ancestral trauma, as well as how this history should force us to really take stock
00:35:43.980of what we pathologize today well I mean really if we're looking at the history of it and as I
00:35:53.340mentioned earlier my great-grandmother was institutionalized right for seeing things for0.67
00:35:59.160being in an interracial relationship for being wild you know when really she was just existing
00:36:06.380and you know that's a lot a lot of those behaviors or things that get demonized are
00:36:16.720because the there's a fear of uncontrollability and I think in terms of how do we
00:36:27.960heal that trauma, right? I mean, it's been years of deep fear and resentment for not being able to
00:36:37.880be fully myself because of fear of being punished. And I realized that that's a historical trauma.
00:36:49.580And I think that with, it has to be a combination if we're wanting to do it on a, say, an ancestral
00:36:56.520healing level. Like for me, one of the things that I'm doing now is I'm actively, you know,
00:37:02.980acknowledging my ancestors as I learned their name by name, especially the women. I'm actively
00:37:09.540appreciating the things that I do now so freely that maybe my relatives did not have the opportunity
00:37:17.540to do. And I continue to do my work and help and hopefully hold space and encourage others
00:37:27.300to do the same, to take up space, to use your voice as a tool and not a weapon. And
00:37:37.780a lot of it comes down to get back to yourself as women or women identifying0.88
00:37:47.100there is a lot of expected caretaking of others before tending to our own needs
00:37:57.820and it sounds like that really cliche and annoying like you know you can't pour from
00:38:03.940an empty cup but it's true we have to get back to making sure that we are recharged revitalized
00:38:13.620And that we surround ourselves with others who will allow us the same safe containers to explore and heal those parts of ourselves.
00:38:26.380And the change is going to happen through witnessing it happen through other people, right?
00:38:34.320So a lot of people, you know, are going to have to check other people, cancel them. No, I don't believe in cancel culture, but I think you can hold people accountable and there are ways to invite people to show up and to hold space and to support.
00:46:49.980Like, what, you know, what other option is there?
00:46:54.340And I, yeah, felt really nice to hear you say that.
00:46:57.380You know, you're really open about your experience being neurodivergent, and I think it's only
00:47:05.280been fairly recently in which these recognitions have been honored.
00:47:09.660Prior, it seems that the Western medical sphere really sought to pathologize any form of
00:47:15.560neurodivergence, be it bipolar, anxiety, autism, depression, ADHD, etc.
00:47:22.580And I say this in no way to insinuate that people shouldn't seek getting help via doctors or medication, but instead thinking into how so many movements are being or beginning to recognize that being all of who you are is powerful and complex and actually helps us battle the dominant story of homogeneity, which is killing a relationship to earth and each other.
00:47:50.600so could you speak to your own experience here and how you'd like to see more spaces reclaim
00:47:57.860and empower neurodivergent folks well that that is where i love the kind of communities that i've
00:48:06.820found through social media is finding like connection through neurodiversity through
00:48:13.000those platforms different um creators and expressions and i think the first of all just
00:48:21.220you know to really connect it back it's like we really are i the for me i don't think diagnosis
00:48:31.880is um because i want to put this out there because a lot of people there's i do think
00:48:38.740self-diagnosis is important and I don't think it discounts, um, your diagnosis isn't discounted
00:48:46.760because it's self-diagnosis and it's really like having a different operating system and it comes
00:48:54.600back to really learning what our own frequency is. Right. Like if we were all, I don't know,
00:49:00.500I like to look at it like, you know, like record players, like you can play like 45 speed or 33,
00:49:06.100right like we're not all one speed right and so life doesn't operate that way I would love to see
00:49:15.720more flexibility in the world for in safe containers I guess for expression for neurodiverse
00:49:28.920people and a little more um and that's what the you know we're gonna get it we're getting it with
00:49:38.100like the you know the fall of capitalism people cannot work the way those structures were not if
00:49:47.640we're gonna survive and make it as people and I think the more people that
00:49:58.920embrace neurodiversity as just a part of their operating system and not as an issue
00:50:06.180or something to be seen as faulty in their system, the more we're going to see spaces
00:50:14.300and places that cater support and nourishment to individuals and groups that have these
00:50:23.540kinds of connectivity and not pressurize them to mask or fit in in ways that cause them greater
00:50:34.640harm and greater pain and i think you're going to find that more and more people
00:50:41.580because i've noticed it for sure that more and more people are going to start
00:50:47.200you know claiming and owning their neurodiversity because it's like they get to claim all the parts
00:50:52.840of themselves that they had to put to sleep. You're going to have a lot of people grieving
00:50:58.700their former self for not having the support, you know, all the things that they could have thrived
00:51:11.240in before they knew. So I hope there are more spaces and places and people learn the language
00:51:20.480of neurodiversity. That's definitely a big dream of mine to see that be more accessible.
00:51:30.460Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, recently I've been asking this of more and more guests, which
00:51:41.200is that I think we have seen just how difficult it can be to change people's minds. That the
00:51:48.860conditioning we subconsciously go through in some societies is incredibly strong and so i bring this
00:51:55.880up because i'd like to ask you about the importance of magic or even trickster energy in working with
00:52:02.720a culture that has proven itself committed to a way of thinking that is ultimately detrimental
00:52:07.340to the collective so as we come to a close i'm wondering if you could speak to where you see
00:52:14.200magic's place in the world right now and how this practice can free us from conventional thinking
00:52:20.240or perhaps just thinking into any sort of offering and work that enables us to unravel
00:52:26.600some of our beliefs. Believe in yourself is the first thing that comes to mind and not believe
00:52:35.740in yourself in this, like, I believe I can do whatever I want, but believing in that,
00:52:45.340that deep knowing within you, that truth is so relevant and so potent for
00:52:59.900being open to the possibility of shifting and changing I think a lot of magic has what magic
00:53:11.340has to offer and has to do in this world is it creates a space to make the invisible
00:53:19.440visible which is what as humans we so desperately want proof
00:53:26.940and if we can get ourselves to believe that we the only proof we need is in our own knowing
00:53:35.440then that is part of the magic right there i think magic is a huge part of what
00:53:44.080is going to help us transition from a dying capitalist society into the next
00:53:53.840existence whatever that means I want to like ask if anyone even if you're doubting magic even if
00:54:05.320you're like not a believer in what you can't see just take a moment to think because at least one
00:54:15.620time in your life, something happened. It could be, doesn't matter how big or how small, but there
00:54:24.600was something that happened that you could not explain that brought you some kind of connection