00:02:48.680Well, it's very, very wonderful to be on here with you, Ayana,
00:02:51.660and looking forward to a good conversation ahead.
00:02:55.480Okay, well, to jump right in, your current project, Food Freedom,
00:03:00.080began in November of last year and will continue until November of this year.
00:03:05.000And during this period, you have committed to grow and forage 100% of your food,
00:03:09.080even down to the grains of salt you use.
00:03:11.720And I have so many questions about this project,
00:03:14.240but I guess I'd like to begin by asking about the sort of relationships you have had to cultivate
00:03:22.820in order to accomplish this. When I first started this project I didn't I was pretty clueless about
00:03:30.840how to grow food. I had had some small raised bed gardens when I lived in San Diego but you know I
00:03:37.240grew no more than a half of a percent of the food that I was eating and so when I got here to Florida
00:03:43.120i was just researching how much water do you give to a carrot seed how much sun does a garden need
00:03:50.640what kind of soil do i use and i was just really clueless to a large degree on on how to grow food
00:03:58.700and then my goal was that within six months i would be growing and foraging 100 of my food so
00:04:06.200i just went on this period of just massive amounts of education and immersing going on plant walks
00:04:13.040meeting local foragers visiting local farms and gardens and uh it ended up taking 10 months
00:04:18.860instead of six before i fully embarked into the into the year and it's just been such an amazing
00:04:25.660immersive experience and just just to see i mean just you know some of these concepts are so simple
00:04:31.880but you literally someone gives you some seeds you stick them in the ground and now your little
00:04:37.380tiny handful of seeds is now able to feed you and dozens of other people and just the reality that
00:04:44.520plants are just so abundant is still something that kind of boggles my mind on on any given day
00:04:51.220just our relationship with plants and that they can be so giving to us and and so helpful
00:04:57.780I'm with you there I definitely praise and worship plants on the daily and they're so
00:05:06.220generous with us. And I love hearing about some of the challenges you faced, because I imagine
00:05:14.980that this project has not been without its challenges, as with any project. And I'd love
00:05:20.380if you could share some of the difficulties you've come across, and perhaps even speak to the
00:05:24.680importance of radical transparency and galvanizing audiences to take steps forward to a more
00:05:30.240sustainable lifestyle yeah there's no question this has been one of the more challenging projects
00:05:36.000that i've ever done and you know the reason is is because food has been built into our lives as this
00:05:43.140very easy convenient thing that it's pretty easy in 2019 in the united states to not have to think
00:05:49.360about where it comes from how it gets to us the amount of work that goes into it or any of those
00:05:54.060sorts of things so for me the most challenging part is just the long-term dedication to every
00:06:01.280single ingredient that I eat for this whole year today's day 173 of the project I have to either
00:06:08.480grow myself or forage and the amount of ultimately the amount of knowledge and a skill set that takes
00:06:17.120is pretty huge because that's the salt and the oil that's all the calories the protein the you
00:06:23.900know all the nutrients and I think I've eaten over 150 different species so far and it's just
00:06:32.140an incredible amount of knowledge that was once built into us that you know for a while we just
00:06:37.580knew after many many many generations of trial and error but now we've lost so much of it so
00:06:44.240the big challenge is one of it is learning it bigger challenge than learning it is just sticking
00:06:49.900to it in this world where things have been made so convenient it's just a daily battle to not take
00:06:56.160the convenient option and instead do what is you know better for the earth our communities and
00:07:01.340ourselves and the reality is is that you know i believe that it's it's challenging to live a
00:07:07.280sustainable life or a regenerative life some some people like to say that it's just as easy as that
00:07:13.280convenient lifestyle and in some ways it is easier i'm not doing a job that i don't like i'm
00:07:19.080much happier and healthier but the reality is that every day i have a long list of chores to do and i
00:07:27.180have typically to cook three meals a day sometimes i you know make meals ahead of time but uh it's
00:07:34.500just the sticking to it day after day after day a year of everything that i grow or forage
00:07:40.320including you know not being able to eat at a potluck or a friend's house those sorts of things
00:07:45.420that's the main challenge is just sticking to it every single day the commitment is challenging
00:07:53.060because it's really easy in this dominant culture to give in to the conveniences
00:07:59.720a they're most of the time very close to our fingertips let alone the media and the conditioning
00:08:07.880that most of us have been raised in to choose the convenient way and that's the better way just to
00:08:12.640make things easy and fast so that you can get to the quote more important things in life
00:08:17.100when really the important things in life are our relationships to life itself but that's not
00:08:23.420valued in our culture what's valued is efficiency and fastness and you know doing as little work as
00:08:30.140possible for our needs. Although, of course, those needs and the work is externalized to other
00:08:38.340people. So it's not as if it's that convenient for everybody in the supply chain. It just happens to
00:08:43.640be convenient for us at the very end. So I really appreciate you speaking to the challenges and the
00:08:49.460commitment that it takes to really be sustainable and regenerative in a world that doesn't necessarily
00:08:54.940want us to be that way because our economy is valued over all else. I've also wanted to
00:09:01.560bring up that you've mentioned that a huge impetus in creating the Food Freedom Project
00:09:07.040was your understanding that the agricultural system is detrimental in a multitude of ways,
00:09:13.420and that participating in it was indirect conflict with many of your beliefs. So I'd like to really
00:09:19.720focus on how there is no such thing as cruelty-free or fair trade food production. Even when one is
00:09:28.020growing their food, we still must look at all of the externalities, like whether or not they're
00:09:34.960using their own compost or what amendments are we putting in the soil? Where are we even getting
00:09:39.760the soil? But specifically, I'm also thinking about how poorly farm workers are treated under
00:09:45.120the system. For example, U.S. food workers have some of the highest rates of food insecurity
00:09:51.280than any other industry. And in the past several decades, eight cases of slave labor have been
00:09:58.200brought against companies who yield produce from Florida's tomato fields. So with this context in
00:10:04.320mind, I wonder if you could speak to the right of food, both on an individual level as it pertains
00:10:12.220to your project, as well as how food freedom can shed light on these many injustices.
00:10:20.560Well, I mean, you said it right. There really is no way that in 2019, in our Western society,
00:10:30.500whatever we're eating is not cruelty-free. There is probably some systems out there that aren't
00:10:37.140on earth but the reality is that almost everything that we're eating whether we grow it in our own
00:10:42.900garden or we're buying it at the grocery store organic or it's factory farm junk from you know
00:10:49.760a big box store all of it is is causing harm to some creatures and some environment period so for
00:10:59.900me it's about looking at things not in this black and white way today the environmental
00:11:06.040the average environmentalist really wants to label things whether it's vegan or zero waste
00:11:13.620or you know things like that and what i find is that labels create a false sense of comfort they
00:11:21.420allow people to think you can say okay well everything i'm eating is vegan so i'm doing a
00:11:26.700great job but then when you really look at the bigger picture you realize well actually all this
00:11:32.000vegan food you know most of the vegan food out there isn't actually cruelty free it's indirectly
00:11:37.880harming animal animals but you can kind of pass that up because you fit things into a label and
00:11:44.020you can and you can feel that comfort and that's one of the things that i think is important is
00:11:48.840not working with labels and instead not thinking in a black and white way but instead just trying
00:11:54.460to think as much as possible critical thinking you know looking at the reality seeing the gray
00:12:01.340areas and how everything that we do, good chance that it's going to have what we would consider a
00:12:08.380negative effect in some way, but also can have a positive impact as well. I do believe that growing
00:12:14.720our own food is one of the best ways that we can start to connect to our food and eat in a way that
00:12:23.060is less exploitive of other people, less exploitive of other species, and less exploitive of our
00:12:30.540natural ecosystems doesn't necessarily get growing your own food doesn't guarantee that by any means
00:12:35.980any individual can do just as bad as stuff but generally i do think it is one of the best ways
00:12:42.180that we can and foraging just really connecting with our food i think is one of the best ways
00:12:48.400that we can take responsibility for our lives and live in a way that is far more harmonious with the
00:12:55.920earth that we live on. Now, when it comes to foraging, I'd like to talk about the history
00:13:02.500of foraging as well as some of the lesser tackled topics around it. First, I think we have to
00:13:08.340recognize the historical decline of foraging that took place because of the marketing of
00:13:13.300industrial agriculture. And I actually think back to something I read years ago, which is how
00:13:19.260industrial agriculture's success was in large part due to how it was marketed as clean, safe,
00:13:26.460and quote, responsible because it was pre-picked, packaged, cleaned, and canned, unlike forage foods
00:13:33.420or raw produce. But more than anything, I'm really curious to know what your thoughts are around the
00:13:40.780accessibility and capacity of foraging. For example, if all 300 plus million humans in this
00:13:48.960country were to go out and forage, then what happens? We wouldn't have anything wild left.
00:13:54.940And examples of this have happened in the past, like ginseng and different herbal medicines and
00:13:59.960even different plants. So I'd like to talk about the capacity of foraging. And then within that,
00:14:06.920who gets to forage? And how can we highlight and change the reality that so many indigenous1.00
00:14:12.160communities face tremendous barriers in harvesting even from their own homelands?
00:14:16.820yes so here's the you know that one of the ways that i look at that people often use that saying
00:14:23.500like well what if everybody wanted to do this and in this example what if everybody wanted to forage
00:14:29.080well you have to zoom out a little further if everybody wanted to forage then what have you
00:14:35.040just had but a massive change in mindset to our entire society if everybody wants to forage then
00:14:41.860it means that our entire society is looking at our ecosystems and our environment and our
00:14:47.020existence in a different way so what that means is we're going to have massive repercussions
00:14:51.840in every facet of life because if everybody wants to go out and forage then they're also probably
00:14:59.240going to be looking at our water they're going to be looking at our energy they're going to be
00:15:02.480looking at our transportation so that's the big thing the scenario where if everybody wants to
00:15:08.280forage is i don't think it's a real scenario to isolate that because again it means that
00:15:15.020everything else is probably changing as well and if everybody did want to forage and everybody was
00:15:21.960seeking reality in their food then we would also see the crumbling of our industrialized globalized
00:15:27.720food system at the same time and so on so i do think that's a really important thing to keep in
00:15:33.180mind if we're you know projecting a scenario like that but that aside you know that there's
00:15:41.600different ways of doing foraging so you can go out into the woods you know a more natural area
00:15:47.380and then it's more environmentally sensitive but you have here in Orlando for example you have
00:15:52.880Spanish needle or Biden's alba it's one of the it's like our dandelion of the south just in how
00:15:58.880ridiculously abundant it is that is a weed people consider a weed that's growing everywhere so i
00:16:06.060don't consider that to be an environmentally sensitive thing to harvest because it's so
00:16:10.760abundant and it's in everybody's front yards and backyards the same goes for
00:16:15.000the loquats the surinam cherries are invasive growing in the city mulberries we have wild
00:16:22.220invasive yams that commonly grow 20-25 pounds and so you can be harvesting these foods and first of
00:16:31.200all you can be removing invasives which is beneficial for the natives and I think you can
00:16:37.700be doing in a way that is not environmentally destructive whatsoever you're pulling this stuff
00:16:41.880out of yards for example but as far as the environmental sensitivity of just going out
00:16:47.280into the wild that's where you know we're looking at a different scenario where what we need is
00:16:51.920educated critical thinkers because i don't think it's when we have educated critical thinkers
00:16:59.280the reality is is that just because it comes from a field at the grocery store we think we're not
00:17:05.100pillaging nature but every farm used to be a forest or a prairie or a marshland or something
00:17:12.760like that and so that that is being pillaged as well so i think it has to be done intelligently
00:17:18.640And, you know, with with good ethics and respect to the people that own that, you know, once that land was theirs or is currently theirs, but don't have the control of it that they should. So, yeah.
00:17:30.900Really good points. I don't know if I'd ever thought about that perspective that if everybody happened to decide that they actually wanted to forage, we live in a very different world at that point anyways, for people's consciousness to even shift that far over to the other end of the spectrum.
00:17:47.760So that's a really interesting mental gymnastics moment to think about what that world would look like.
00:17:54.660And I also love really thinking about what is foraged and making the differentiation between wild foraging and urban foraging or like nouveau ecosystem foraging,
00:18:06.040meaning going into ecosystems that aren't native, but maybe have a bunch of invasives
00:18:10.820and picking from those species and really having a critical lens on what is being foraged and what
00:18:17.600isn't. And also taking note of how the ecosystem is functioning and what is abundant that year and
00:18:24.700what isn't and how to maintain different populations and really thinking about the
00:18:29.860ecological knowledge that we need in order to be in right relationship with foraging.
00:18:34.840So I appreciate all of those notes. And I'm definitely, it's definitely food for thought.
00:18:39.860But yeah, and I'd like to actually now read something you wrote about the context of your
00:18:45.420current project. Quote, this project is undoubtedly extreme. And that is very intentional. I embark on
00:18:53.140extreme adventures and activism campaigns that are designed to catch people's and the media's
00:18:58.240attention. There are millions of messages being pumped out each day. And this is my way of getting
00:19:04.360what I deem as a worthwhile message out to the masses, end quote. And I want to bring this up
00:19:10.420to address what some might perceive as the sensational or maybe even to some delusional
00:19:17.140aspects of your project. And what does it say about the news machines we have created and even
00:19:23.280our own capacity to understand when we have to go to extremes to even begin to change the
00:19:28.560conversation? Well, I would like to address that. Yes, I am delusional because all humans are
00:19:35.680delusional, I believe. Now, my goal is to embrace my delusions and to work always to strive always
00:19:45.880to be a less delusional human being. That is one of my that's one of my top goals. Also,
00:19:51.500I'm a hypocrite. I think that it's almost impossible to care about the environment and0.92
00:19:56.700to care about humans and to care about other species in 2019 and not be a hypocrite.0.91
00:20:02.020I want to say near impossible, but really, I think impossible to do.
00:20:07.140Because the way that the system is set up, if you want to be a part of the system at all,
00:20:12.280just you and I speaking over the computer right now,
00:20:16.040then every day we have to be living out our hypocrisies.
00:20:19.100If we want to make a difference in this world, that's another thing.
00:20:22.780If we want to make a difference in this world and live what we would consider a sustainable life,
00:20:26.700we're constantly going to have to be making sacrifices of what we can or will or will not do
00:20:32.040but always that's going to be hypocrisies that we deal with so for me it's all about
00:20:36.580embracing my hypocrisies acknowledging the reality of them and then doing my best to reduce my
00:20:42.720hypocrisy and be transparent with them and work to reduce what i can but realize that i can't get
00:20:49.440rid of all of it it's just that's just a reality so in a little bit more on what you brought up
00:20:54.300Like, I definitely could be considered, I think you could easily call me a sensationalist, maybe.
00:21:01.200I don't know the exact definition of that.
00:21:03.400But I do play the media's game because I'm not trying, like, most of the podcasts and stuff I do are not for the wild.
00:21:12.320I try to do as much as possible that reaches the everyday average person who just thinks of extracting the resources from the earth
00:21:20.020and, you know, doesn't put any thought into the fact that this can't go on forever, our way of life.
00:21:26.820And so I'm trying to reach people, and that's what I do, you know, successfully,
00:21:31.340reach people that haven't really thought about this stuff before.
00:22:20.020what's happening is crazy but i do that by doing these sort of crazy things that that really get0.97
00:22:26.800to them it was so relieving at the beginning of your response to hear you say yes i'm delusional
00:22:34.360yes i'm a hypocrite yes it's almost impossible if not impossible to be in full right relationship
00:22:43.000and reciprocity all the time with the earth while also being a human living in the dominant culture
00:22:48.160And I feel relieved by that because it's just nice to be able to call it what it is, but still keep trying. It's like we don't, you know, we're not striving for purity or perfection or something that may not be possible. But that doesn't mean we're giving up. And that doesn't mean we're giving in. We can still keep going and still call things out for what it is and the reality of the situation. But that doesn't mean we have to give up.
00:23:11.740And so I think it's really important to be able to speak to the transparency of situations like that and not use it as a way to, you know, be a really extractive person, but just to be honest with each other.
00:23:24.340And I'm really interested because as somebody who initially began transforming your lifestyle through small scale changes over time, I'm really wondering when did you realize your activism would have to root itself in the extreme to gain traction?
00:23:38.320I've always been an extreme person actually I've always liked to test the boundaries of what was
00:23:45.060possible and just in the past it was done and maybe it would have been some extreme sports or
00:23:51.060stunts things that ultimately were fun but completely unproductive in the you know big
00:23:56.020picture but I was living a life where I was enjoying those sorts of things but I've always
00:24:01.400just been someone who has really liked to test boundaries just as an example you know when I was
00:24:07.860in fifth grade so i was like 12 years old me and my friend decided to set off on a bike ride and
00:24:13.120we were just gonna try to bike seven miles which i think would have been the longest bike ride we've
00:24:17.260ever done we ended up biking to the to two towns over which was like 29 miles away uh we only had
00:24:24.640two granola bars and like two juice boxes with us or something like that i've just always been
00:24:30.380someone who has just really liked to test things and i've also always been an entertainer and so
00:24:36.540when I first got started with environmental activism, well, I guess I would say I first
00:24:41.920got started with adventures because I liked adventures. But more and more that I learned
00:24:47.780about the problems, I wanted to be a part of the solution. So I adapted my life while not taking
00:24:53.300away the value and the, you know, the joy of my life very much. I adapted it to turn my adventures
00:25:01.000into environmental adventures, turned my desire for extreme things into doing extreme things that
00:25:08.860actually were meaningful as I wanted to live a more meaningful life and as I started to learn
00:25:14.560about the problems in the world. And so really, it's been a matter of adaptation. It's still
00:25:22.060wanting to follow the core of who I am, an adventurer and someone who likes to test the
00:25:29.460limits of the human experience but realized at the same time that all is not well in the world
00:25:34.920and I don't want to be part of that I want to be a part of the solution so how can I take my skill
00:25:39.240set and my passion and increase that passion and do it in a way that you know brings benefit to
00:25:45.600the world rather than destruction and then ultimately the more that I started to do these
00:25:51.500adventures the more you know the less and less it becomes about me as I you know first I was very
00:25:58.520ego based. I still have an ego, but much less and much less over time. And so this, the more that I
00:26:05.400immerse in this, it's like volunteering at first, maybe you volunteer just because you feel like
00:26:12.180it's the right thing to do. But after years of doing it, you start to do it because you see the
00:26:19.700benefit that it brings to other people slightly, you know, it becomes a more altruistic thing,
00:26:24.960But you can't become altruistic by never having practiced anything in the form of altruism.
00:26:32.520So for me, the more and more that I do things that would be considered selfless or altruistic,
00:26:37.320the more that I can move into that realm.
00:26:40.120However, I'm not selfless or altruistic because everything that I do benefits me.
00:26:44.300Because everything that, first of all, anything that benefits the world benefits me
00:35:46.420I also think food is one of the greatest gateways in changing people's lives.
00:35:50.800I mean, it was for me and for so many people.
00:35:53.960It's watching documentaries like Food, Inc., for example.
00:35:57.560People start to rethink food, and it's a gateway where you start to rethink everything.
00:36:03.140But food is such an easy one because, you know, most of us eat food three times a day or way more, 10 to 20 times a day for a lot of us.
00:36:12.560And it's something that we just – it's so much easier to connect with.
00:36:16.400So I think the gardens are really just one of the greatest gateways in getting people to rethink food and then ultimately rethink the system, rethink our existence.
00:36:28.740Now, what I'm doing is it's not the solution.
00:36:35.260The problems are so big that I could never be the solution.
00:36:44.800Even if you're somebody like Gandhi, still, what has one person achieved?
00:36:51.960In the grand scheme of things, he was liberating just one country out of 200 on this earth.
00:36:58.600It's actually a small drop in the hat of talking about any real global justice or anything like that.
00:37:04.300He's hailed as one of the great people of our time.
00:37:07.380So big picture wise, what can one individual do and can they design their life to actually fit into all the forms of justice, environmental, social, animals, humans, all of that?
00:37:22.880Not really because that's just ridiculously hard in the life that we live today.
00:37:27.680So what I'm trying to do is live a life that's pretty good, that reduces the number of ways that I'm causing destruction to other people and to other species and to the earth, knowing that I'm not going to get it down to zero by any means, and embrace that reality.
00:37:46.080but the bigger picture is i don't think any one of us individuals is going to solve the global
00:37:53.320crisis that we see and i don't think i personally don't believe that even all of us coming together
00:37:58.080are going to solve it i actually don't think things are going to work out in the grand scheme
00:38:03.320of things for the human race um just logically we know 99 of all species that ever existed have
00:38:09.480died so we're probably going to go that way as well but the way things that are going i don't
00:38:14.920see us pulling out of this so my big picture is I'm not trying to solve every problem out there
00:38:21.660I think that life matters and so if I can be of benefit to the life of the people around me and
00:38:28.260do it in a way that doesn't actually I'm not like pulling from one area just to help a few people
00:38:34.120designing my life to try to be generally less destructive and have benefit and while I'm alive
00:38:40.200if I can improve the life of people and animals around me just some people and animals I'm only
00:38:47.680one person in seven billion then that is a life worth living because life matters and life is
00:38:53.400valuable every life is valuable then I can live a worthwhile life just by focusing on
00:38:59.520what I can do in my community and those people around me and honestly I feel like we should be
00:39:09.180thinking that way all of us I don't think anybody should have the pressure or the narcissism to
00:39:15.820think that them individually are able to create an a fissure in this enormous system it's too much
00:39:24.240it's too much for one person to take on there's no it's not possible but I think that we kind of
00:39:30.080live in this hero narrative mentality and so I think it's easy for people to get wrapped up
00:39:36.780in this feeling that they personally have to come up with the solutions or be the savior.
00:39:43.100And that mentality, I think, gets us into a lot of trouble. And it's not real because it does
00:39:48.500take community to make big changes. And it's not possible and it's way too lonely to think that we
00:39:54.120can do it on our own. And so I really appreciate your transparency and your directness around
00:40:00.120what you feel like your role is in this massive, some people call it an apocalypse or the great
00:40:07.700turning or collapse, you know, whatever word you choose to use for this time. And I know you've
00:40:15.280summarized that your current financial status on your website, noting that you have taken vows to
00:40:20.860earn no more than $5,000 a year, own no more than $5,000 worth of possessions and own no more than
00:40:28.320five thousand dollars in cash and financial assets so i'm really curious to hear more about
00:40:34.640what the process of demonetizing your life looked like and whether or not you were able to
00:40:41.980demonetize your life because you had a degree of financial stability to begin with you know in
00:40:47.200other terms is this relatable to those stuck within intergenerational poverty and what do
00:40:53.300you have to say to those who are looking to get out of forced poverty before they can even begin
00:40:58.800to think about scaling down again? Absolutely. I'm able to do what I do because I live a privileged
00:41:05.500life. There's no question about that. And so I designed my life based around my life. So what
00:41:11.580I'm trying to do is not reduce my privilege. That's not possible. I don't think. I'm a white
00:41:18.560male, Westerner. But what I'm trying to do is reduce the ways that, you know, my privileged
00:41:24.500life actually takes from others who are less privileged, extracts from them and, you know,
00:41:29.980keeps them in a system of being put in a situation where they get less. So no, the reason that I'm
00:41:37.740able to do things the way that I am is because as like I had the financial stability to move into
00:41:45.300a life, into demonetizing my life. Whereas if someone's just fighting to pay rent and be able
00:41:53.060to get the basic things and feed their children and things like that, then they're not in a place
00:41:57.680where they can really go ahead and demonetize their life. So 100%, I embrace that I'm able to
00:42:04.880do so much of what I do because of the privileges that I have. Now, however, I do believe that
00:42:11.960people in those scenarios can learn from my example and realize, okay, I don't need these
00:42:20.300things these corporations are selling me to try to keep me in poverty. There's many ways that I
00:42:26.080can drastically reduce the ways that I am actually being bought into this system that actually is not
00:42:33.860in my favor or my community's favor. So I do hope that I can help and show, you know, look,
00:42:40.820your self-worth doesn't come from material possessions. I grew up very poor. My mom made
00:42:47.600around $15,000 a year to support me and my three siblings, no dads. We did have help from the
00:42:55.160government and from my aunt and grandpa. So we lived fairly comfortable. We had what we need,
00:43:01.440but definitely grew up quite poor. So I'm not delusional in that regards to having grown up
00:43:09.220in some situation where I had a lot of money, you know, nothing like that. And I always wanted a lot
00:43:15.800of money because I wanted to get out of being poor. I wanted to, you know, I wanted the American
00:43:20.120dream, the nice house, the nice car. So I don't in any way fault anybody for wanting that mainstream
00:43:27.220narrative of the American dream. I don't fault anyone for wanting convenience and comfort and
00:43:32.180all those things. Those are all, you know, kind of basic things. So really, the idea of me living
00:43:39.020with very little money, which I do want to clarify, my original vow was under $15,000 a year. And then
00:43:45.980I did change it to $5,000. And I found that to be a little bit too little. So I basically set it now
00:43:54.120to the federal poverty threshold, which as an individual is currently $12,000. But last year,
00:44:01.940I made $8,000 and the year before that I made $5,000 so it's definitely and so far this year
00:44:07.300I've made $2,500 so you know I keep it really minimal but so the purpose of living with less
00:44:15.260money is not in any way to simulate poverty but to show mostly privileged people that they can do
00:44:21.620with far less and in doing so live a life that is more socially just where they're actually
00:44:29.080instead of me me me me me needing a million dollars for retirement people need 20 bucks now
00:44:37.440people need clean food and clean water now so instead of using all that privilege as a privileged
00:44:43.280westerner how can you plug that privilege into helping the less privileged to have those basic
00:44:49.660needs met and to live in a more just society so that's that's really you know what it's about and
00:44:55.960And the other thing is the more access you have to money, the easier it is to over-consume resources.
00:45:02.180And so by reducing my monetary assets, the amount of money I have available,
00:45:08.100it forces me ultimately a lot of times to do the right thing.
00:45:13.440Money makes it easy to do the destructive thing.
00:45:16.340And so by having less money, it makes it a lot harder for me to do the things that ultimately are less just.
00:46:48.760Yeah, and I appreciate you talking about the differences between forced poverty versus
00:46:58.880chosen demonetization, which is not chosen poverty. And I think it's a really important
00:47:05.480distinction to make. And I appreciated that a lot. And I agree, the more money you have in your
00:47:12.040account, the more potentially people are likely to, you know what, screw it, I am going to buy
00:47:18.120that thing. I am going to, you know what, I will do that thing because the money's there. Where if
00:47:23.020the money's not there, you have to really consider, is this important? Do I need this? What is this
00:47:28.700going to bring me? And so on and so forth. It does leave more room for critical thinking. And
00:47:33.500I think it's really fascinating. And it seems really life-giving for you. And I appreciate
00:47:41.380you setting that example to people. And I'm thinking along the same lines as this topic
00:47:46.900of demonetization, I'm thinking about the relationship between money and community
00:47:51.740and interrogating where true wealth is to be found. So how has living on a smaller income
00:47:59.820fostered a deeper connection to community? And how have you been able to successfully transition
00:48:05.140away from the economy of money into one of exchanges and relationships in the absence
00:48:11.100of overflowing financial wealth where we can find the security of communal networks?
00:48:17.660Well, what I've kind of come to see is that community exists the best when people need the community.
00:48:26.040So community exists when people are actually dependent upon each other for each other's needs.
00:48:32.140The more that we don't actually need each other, the less likely it is that we have strong communities.
00:48:38.220For example, in our generation where you can just be totally mobile, you have your money, you get it from some source.
00:48:46.060it's so easy to just move on from place to place and not really have to you know create a strong
00:48:53.220community the strongest communities are where when people live near each other and they depend
00:48:58.220on each other for survival and the strongest communities i always see are in other countries
00:49:04.140where people have way less money and they have to go to their neighbors and say can i borrow some
00:49:10.120money. And if they don't, you know, they might die of a disease or something like that. When
00:49:14.940people need each other to survive, they're looking out for each other more. So basically,
00:49:22.160I think community comes from the actual need for each other. And that's where I think that,
00:49:30.240you know, super wealth will not create strong communities because when you have super wealth,
00:49:35.920you can leave those people behind at any time and go somewhere else. You can forget those problems
00:49:42.020and move on to somewhere else. So for me personally, my sense of community has gone up
00:49:47.780so much because I am dependent upon people around me. Now, the American idea is complete
00:49:55.300independence, that we're not dependent upon each other at all. And it's almost like looked down
00:50:01.260upon to be dependent on other people. You're supposed to be able to do it all on your own.
00:50:06.880Now, I think that is, you know, one of the greatest problems that we have here in the
00:50:11.860United States, that narrative. So instead, I have chosen to be dependent upon other people,
00:50:18.880partly as an example to show, look, we need to depend on each other. This is how we make things
00:50:26.220work. And also because it creates humility. Actually needing other people is what has really
00:50:33.780humbled me. And one of the big things is that in the United States, it's good to give,
00:50:40.300but not good to receive. So we all want to be good givers. But how many of us are really good
00:50:47.300at being handed something, just given something? Not very many of us. And so what I want to do
00:50:54.140in order to be a good giver is actually have to receive and that's why i've done these trips like
00:51:00.560traveling with no money a big part of it was that i learned to be able to be given something and to
00:51:07.180be able to receive and ultimately that's what's made me much better as a community member and
00:51:13.460someone that's actually better at being able to serve others and to give because i i do have some
00:51:18.940idea of what it feels like to need to need help and to need somebody and it seems like you've
00:51:26.200been able to tap into the reciprocal exchange of needing and being needed you know it's so funny
00:51:32.840it's so funny how uh it's so ingrained in us to feel like we're not valuable if we need other
00:51:39.600people when in fact of course we need other people and we need the planet and it doesn't make us
00:51:44.600less of a person or less capable in our lives even and to really change that narrative I feel
00:51:51.860like is so is so important and I want to go back to something we were mentioning earlier in the
00:51:59.160conversation around people's perception around you know the collective consciousness shift and
00:52:05.320so on and so forth and I have been learning through researching for this interview that
00:52:10.340many of your projects involve elements of civil disobedience or some kind of disruption like
00:52:16.240diving into thousands of dumpsters across the country in an effort to raise awareness around
00:52:20.620the national food waste crisis. And I think to some people, this might be very transgressive
00:52:26.240or taboo or risky. And I'm thinking about how social norms and respectability politics at times
00:52:33.300upheld by the law and enforced with punity are such large tools in the hands of the oppressor
00:52:40.340And this ongoingness and survival of these deeply harmful, destructive industries is incumbent on our silence and operating business as usual.
00:52:51.180So I'm wondering, especially since you're saying you talk to a lot of mainstream audiences, you know, how are you approaching these issues of perception, the need to shift our collective consciousness while also meeting people where they're at and addressing issues of access?
00:53:05.820well the big way that i do that is i don't tell anybody what to do ever i do believe that we have
00:53:13.340the right to kind of do what we want now of course the challenge of that is that if you're doing what
00:53:19.240you want and that destroyed someone's clean air or clean water and that means that those people
00:53:24.080who just simply want to breathe and drink water can't do that anymore it doesn't really work too
00:53:29.080well to be able to say we should just be able to do what we want but still generally i i try to say
00:53:35.780we have the right to do what we want. I believe that. So I'm not going to tell anybody what to
00:53:41.080do. Again, I don't blame anyone for wanting convenience and comfort. It's nice. Sometimes
00:53:48.000I spend time at friends' houses and in a super comfy bed and sit on their nice couch and I get
00:53:55.620rides places and I'll sit down in a nice car and I feel that feeling in that nice car, just that
00:54:01.720comfort and like wow you know this feels good so that's the main thing i can relate to everybody
00:54:07.800and their desire for this stuff for the ease life is hard no matter what way you're living it whether
00:54:14.160you're a millionaire or you know you're trying to live with very little money i think that life is
00:54:21.140hard for all of us human beings and it's often in some ways more hard for those people with a lot of
00:54:26.760money because they're just ridiculously stressed out and they have so many things to deal with.
00:54:32.680So because I know that life is hard and I have plenty experience in my life, the desire for
00:54:38.280convenience and comfort, I don't fault anyone or blame anyone whatsoever. And that's the main way
00:54:44.740that I'm able to be on the same page with people because I genuinely do get where they're coming
00:54:50.880from. And, um, I just want to give people the option. I want people to make educated decisions.
00:54:56.820And so what that means is that I don't want anyone to do what I'm suggesting just because they think
00:55:01.740they like the way that I speak or, or because I'm a good persuader. I want people to make real good
00:55:08.100educated decisions. I want people to stop thinking black and white and to look at the gray area that
00:55:13.700not the gray area. Cause everything is gray. There's, you know, everything is gray. And so
00:55:18.520that's really what I want people to start doing. So, you know, because of that, I don't have too
00:55:25.460hard of a time communicating with a lot of different people because, you know, they can do
00:55:30.400what they want. And the other thing is that I just ultimately, I don't care what they decide because
00:55:34.580there's 7 billion people out there. I just need to talk to a lot of people. Some people are going
00:55:40.460to change and some people aren't. And so people who just don't care, I'm not going to put my time
00:55:47.260or energy into that I don't focus on one one individual if I go talk to 100 people and 10
00:55:53.300people really walk out of that room starting to think then I've done my job that day as long as
00:55:59.920I didn't turn the other 90 you know harder into the other direction which you can do but so that's
00:56:05.580kind of like my strategy and my philosophy on that I guess you could say I've been feeling
00:56:12.220similarly lately where i feel like you know i don't have the time or the energy to even believe
00:56:20.220that i can change everybody's direction or their opinions or their feelings about the planet and
00:56:26.620how we treat each other and i'm not even trying to do that anymore i'd really rather just work
00:56:32.380with the people who are ready to do what it's going to take i mean and even that i even even
00:56:38.240hearing myself say that. I'm like, well, I don't even really believe that. I think it's more for
00:56:42.240me just doing what I can and not giving up because I may feel discouraged at moments because
00:56:50.300there are people out there, I'm sure the people who are listening to this conversation right now,
00:56:55.660who are willing to sit in the hard conversations and sit in the hypocrisies and sit in the
00:57:00.700challenges and sit with the enormity of the issues and still take a step forward every day and still
00:57:07.600recommit every day to reciprocity to integrity to relationship with the planet and their community
00:57:14.980so i i really appreciate you saying that and well this has been so wonderful rob and i just want to
00:57:21.440give you the space to mention anything that is important to you that maybe hasn't been mentioned
00:57:27.060or any last words that you want to share while we're still together on this wonderful conversation
00:57:33.800yeah i mean i would just say for people out there when they're when they're feeling down and they're
00:57:40.880feeling unempowered to keep on going because again we can't fix all the problems but we can live good
00:57:47.320lives and we can make the lives of the people around us better and that's just worth it so we
00:57:53.200can just keep that up and focus on what we can do and you know less so on what we can't do and