00:00:00.000Hey, for the wild community, it's Ayanna here speaking to you from Southeast Alaska, where I'm with Madison working on the Tongass campaign, and we are so excited to share more news about that soon.
00:00:13.300But in the meantime, I wanted to give you a few updates. One, we are really excited to launch our conversation with Jade Begay from our Earth Day event to drip subscribers.
00:00:25.220so if you haven't subscribed already, head over to d.rip slash 4 dash the dash wild. We really
00:00:34.180need your support to continue producing this podcast. You get to be engaged with the podcast
00:00:39.780and get little goodies, so head over if you haven't already and sign up. Also, this month is
00:00:47.000staff picks, and this episode is chosen by Molly Lebov, our beloved media director. It was a cosmic
00:00:55.000blessing to have molly brought into for the wilds family and we are so grateful for her
00:01:00.340so we hope you enjoy and now on to the show
00:01:25.000hello for the wild world this is molly here media director of for the wild reporting to you from
00:01:35.780detroit michigan it's been almost a year to the date since i joined the for the wild team
00:01:42.740and it has been a truly mind-expanding heart-opening year the encore episode i have chosen
00:01:49.460is with the man referred to as the gangster gardener, Ron Finley, on cultivating the garden
00:01:55.860of the mind. In 2013, I watched a TED talk with Ron Finley that ignited a fire in my life and
00:02:03.080drove me to learn how to grow food. In May of this year, I streamed the episode while tending the
00:02:08.960urban garden I work in in the city of Detroit. Ron's wisdom is piercing and relatable. He is
00:02:15.880universal. He is asking us to evaluate what we deem worthy, what values we have been indoctrinated
00:02:22.440into, and what actions we are willing to take in our daily lives to raise capable selves and
00:02:28.980communities on a planet in decline. I believe this time is asking more of us than we can even begin
00:02:35.600to fathom. We are being asked to become the leaders we do not see in our communities, cities,
00:02:41.720governments, and countries. We are being asked to show up to create value for future beings
00:02:47.700to be able to thrive here on our precious planet. We have to put our hope into action and win this
00:02:54.240imagination battle we perceive as our current reality. We can build the future we want to see
00:02:59.820and I am reminded by this when I hear Ron and his work. We each have a unique role to play in this
00:03:05.580time and Ron has been such a lantern for me on my journey and I have deep gratitude for this.
00:05:40.340So recently, I've had the pleasure of being in dialogue with a number of vibrant farmers
00:05:44.960working for land liberation and food justice in their local communities.
00:05:49.160And one of the lessons that really rang true in my conversation with both Leah Penniman
00:05:54.100of Soul Fire Farm in Grafton, New York, and Malik Yakini, hailing from Detroit, is that every
00:06:00.160community has their own needs and desires, and every community deserves to actualize their unique
00:06:06.840self-determined solutions. So your home turf is South Central Los Angeles, and I'd like to begin
00:06:13.160by asking you to share how your work has evolved in relationship and dedication to your specific
00:06:19.800community? I consider the whole world my community. I don't set trip. You know, I'm
00:06:25.540accepting everybody who wants to turn this, to change this design of what we're dealing with
00:06:30.280right now. So no, I don't, it's not a specific thing. I mean, I literally travel around the
00:06:36.180world. Right now I'm speaking to you in the middle of a park in Memphis, Tennessee. We all need the
00:06:43.300same thing, period. I don't care where you're at. We all need shelter. First and foremost,
00:06:48.380we all need air is the single most important thing to your life that nobody seems to think
00:06:52.840about because they figure it's here until you need it. To me, I don't I don't treat this like
00:06:57.840that. I don't treat this like, oh, I'm over here. And you're over there. No, we all as humans need
00:07:03.740the same thing. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point. So many of us don't think about air or
00:07:10.200water, even at all. I'll ask the question, you know, around the world from Denmark to
00:07:17.240Compton, California. And I'll ask, what's the single most important thing to your life?
00:07:22.880And people will say, oh, love, my kids, God, my husband, my wife, you know, my cats. But nobody
00:07:32.420generally point zero zero zero two might say oxygen, air. So no, you'll get water and you'll
00:07:40.540get food. But food and water is not the single most important thing to your life. First and
00:07:45.260foremost is air, because without that, you don't have anything. What I'm trying to do is just have
00:07:50.060people think about what we've been taught to value differently. The space that needs to be
00:07:55.340cultivated with me is the space between your two ears. That's what needs to be farmed. That's the
00:08:00.900soil that needs to be tended to. That's the garden that needs to be raised, is that space between
00:08:06.100your ears, because what we are living right now is something that is not really designed for us.
00:08:12.000is designed for us to be mignons for corporations is it ever and thinking about los angeles where
00:08:19.600your project started i believe you know in la is such a giant metropolis and it's this nexus of
00:08:27.960money and privilege with the entertainment industry but it's also heavily dependent on
00:08:32.800resources from elsewhere and not only are these manicured lawns and consumptive lifestyles
00:08:38.900sucking the watersheds of California dry, but the city also owns 26 square miles of vacant lots,
00:08:46.040which is actually equivalent to 20 central parks. So to think that in this fear, the city
00:08:52.780reprimanded you for utilizing open space to grow food for and beautify your community is absurd.
00:09:00.560So I'd love to hear the story of how your projects persevered through the many hurdles imposed by
00:09:05.760inequitable bureaucracy from the beginning of your gardens and the Bureau of Street Services
00:09:12.060citation to then the recent crowdfunding campaign that led you to the purchasing of your own land
00:09:17.800and property? It basically started because what I do is not necessarily, it's not about food.
00:09:25.780Food is a very small component to what I do. First and foremost, what I do is about people.
00:09:31.280And that's what people, they take that for granted. Everything I do is about people. When you do things like this, what I've undertaken that I have, it's not about you. It's way, way, way bigger than anything you do.
00:09:49.460They weren't just going to reprimand me. I was going to get arrested.
00:09:54.560You a lot of times you have to step out of your comfort zone to to show people the difference.
00:10:00.880And that's what happened with the city. I mean, I kind of embarrassed my city to like, well, you have these areas with the only land these people have is this land that's supposedly owned by you in front of their house.
00:10:13.140why can't they grow food instead of putting grass there, instead of people leaving trash
00:10:17.820on your parkway? You know, and that's the thing with me. I didn't get a citation because people
00:10:22.480would leave toilets and dressers and couches on my street. But as soon as I put some agapanthas1.00
00:10:27.720and some onions and carrots out there, all of a sudden I'm a criminal and I get a warrant for my
00:10:32.080arrest. So what this has led me to is, like I said, speaking all over the world on this.
00:10:37.780And I don't maintain farms. There's only one garden I maintain, and it's mine. You should
00:10:42.880maintain your own garden, because if you don't, you are still in the slavery system. And that's
00:10:48.160all of us. I'm not just talking about black people. All of us are enslaved by big ag, period.
00:10:52.940You know, you asked a child, where does apples come from? And they raised their hand and say,0.99
00:10:56.440from the store. Not from my front yard, not from my backyard. And this is all around the world.
00:11:01.380It's not just the United States. When I spoke to Malik Yakini a few weeks ago,
00:11:06.340he said something along the lines of quote local food tastes great but it won't end white supremacy
00:11:13.420end quote and i thought about this when i read about your visions for the ron finley project
00:11:21.480and how your projects for a growing food into freedom but like you were saying it's more than
00:11:29.000that and severing the lines of dependence and encouraging local autonomy and communal reciprocity
00:11:35.420So could you tell us more about the goals and visions of the Ron Finley project? And then how is this initiative and your upcoming event to function, invigorating revitalization within your community, but like you were saying, the global community?
00:11:51.400What we're trying to do is have people understand that the environment that you live in is by design and it's not designed for you.
00:12:00.680The fact that we all are designers and we are capable of designing the life we want to live and not the one that's been designed for us.
00:12:08.640So my whole thing is if we just get together and start communicating for one, but then if we grow together, we grow together, period.
00:12:19.260And that's what I want people to realize, that if we get together and start growing our own food, so now you have neighbors growing food, so now you can trade food with each other.
00:12:29.800You don't have to grow all the food that you're going to eat.
00:12:39.820Freedom from just that food, apartheid, food, racism, food, injustice, because that's what it is.
00:12:46.820these areas that are so-called underserved, they're underserved. Why? Because they're
00:12:52.340underserved. That's the only reason. Why all of a sudden, when the complexion of the community0.99
00:12:56.320changes, there's cafes and fresh food and juice bars and coffee shops everywhere, and everything's
00:13:03.960convenient. It's the same city. It's the same street. It's the same trees, the same storefronts,
00:13:09.840but all of a sudden, the complexion changes. And I want people to realize all of this is by design.0.96
00:13:15.280And I got to address a bunch of mayors like that.
00:13:17.960You know, it's like these underserved communities are underserved because you're not serving them until it benefits you.
00:13:24.500But and then people don't realize the billions of dollars that are being made from poverty or the delusion of poverty.
00:13:32.380That we have companies, fast food companies, diabetes centers, these what are these drugstores in our neighborhoods that are making billions and billions of dollars off of people suffering, off of people's misery.
00:13:43.240So if there's no money in these communities, how are they making all this money in these communities?0.91
00:13:48.700How are the slumlords living in different parts of the community like Beverly Hills and Palace Verdes if there's no money in these communities?0.99
00:16:59.840Exactly. They held them back to make people feel like they're more precious and that they're worth more.
00:17:04.700But it's yeah, that's a really good. That's a that's a great metaphor, whatever we want to call that.
00:17:10.700But, you know, I want to get back to this. Well, actually, in one of your TED Talks, you spoke about how you weren't interested in living in someone else's manufactured reality. And it really reminded me of the concept of radical imagination, which I was introduced to by Adrienne Marie Brown, who's a social justice and black liberation facilitator.
00:17:33.940and i really consider her to be one of the great teachers of this generation and i want to read
00:17:39.980you a quote from my interview with her earlier this year it says quote the idea that we are
00:17:45.500actually in an imagination battle we are living inside someone else's imagination for what this
00:17:52.680world would look like how it would work how power would work inside of it how we would be in
00:17:59.440relationship to resources. We are in this space. And if we are in an imagination that created these
00:18:06.320conservative, inhumane conditions, then we need to have a radical imagination that moves us through
00:18:12.460and out of them. We have to be able to see something beyond this moment. And something
00:18:17.220about seeing it gives us something to orient towards, end quote. So I'm curious, does the
00:18:23.320concept of radical imagination resonate with you and the way you approach your work?
00:18:28.060No, it's not radical to me. You know, they can call it radical because now we're living with
00:18:35.620their definitions. It's not what I do. I'll get called to colleges supposedly because I'm a
00:18:40.960critical thinking. I'm not no critical thinker. Thinking is critical, period. You know, the fact
00:18:46.620that you're that what we're living, somebody designed it and they didn't design it to benefit
00:18:52.200us. It's real simple. And everybody that says they work in social justice and food justice,
00:19:00.520and there's no such thing. It's called injustice. You work in food injustice. You work in social
00:19:07.260injustice. Okay. And until you fix it, it can't be called social justice because it's not.
00:19:14.740People should use the right words. Words matter. And so when you say that, every time you say it,
00:19:20.600You should be letting somebody know I'm trying to change this injustice.
00:19:25.400Not that it's already just because it's not and it's never been.
00:19:28.900No, what I do in the scheme of things, because of what we've been taught, I guess you can call it radical.
00:19:35.720But how radical is it for somebody to grow their own food?
00:35:13.700Well, don't even don't even answer. OK, so it's real simple. So you're in school, right? And you go to college. Was it four years? OK, that's already by design. So you go to college and it's four years and you study whatever you study and then the debt. So now they want you to go to overgrad, undergrad, sideways grad, backwards grad.
00:35:35.440Okay, so now how many years have you put in? That's seven, eight years in college, right? And then you leave college, and where do you start? At a position that is introductory position, an entry-level position. Why? Because all that stuff you learned eight years ago is now antiquated.
00:35:55.860Why is everywhere you go, it's a four year university? It's a this and that. It's designed
00:36:00.020like that. You think they don't know that? Everybody can't be on the street at the same time.
00:36:04.580What are they really teaching you? What are you really doing in college? It's almost like a
00:36:08.860holding tank. That's why. And it's, I can go deeper, but I don't. I just think it's a joke,
00:36:15.980you know, with all of these studies and these papers that these college professors do and who
00:36:21.760gets to read them? You know, you got a 700 page. You studied how does leaf mulch cure cancer? You
00:36:29.040know, who gets to read that paper? Nobody. But how much money did it cost? You know, somebody spent
00:36:34.360several millions of dollars just for you to do this paper that maybe two people are going to read.
00:36:39.460So it's to me, it's a scam. Some things, yeah, you need doctors or whatever. Yeah, there's certain
00:36:45.240things that do, but it's a lot of things you don't need college. And most people who've gone,
00:36:49.860They're not doing what they went to college for because they wound up realizing, I hate this.
00:37:00.200People that go to college for four years, six years, I mean, get their master's degree and they come out and they don't have jobs for what they've studied.
00:37:10.380I have some guys that were working with me and they went to school for it.
00:37:19.860Yeah, the jobs aren't there. And then the debt is so large from college, and then you can't find the job. And again, this is another setup like you've been talking about keeping us in the system, keeping us indebted. And then I just want to touch on what you said about the college papers.
00:37:38.620I've been doing some major research into the restoration industrial complex of forest ecosystems and trying to break into the forestry industry.
00:37:54.520And it's incredible because these papers on whether that's replanting of redwoods or, you know, what you said about the mulch or whatever it is, it doesn't even matter.
00:38:05.860but all of these papers they're not even accessible you actually if you're just a
00:38:12.240regular person who does want to help replant a forest you can't even get to that paper or you
00:38:17.920have to spend an absorbent amount of money to buy that paper but to even find that paper you almost
00:38:24.220have to be in this you know exclusive group to even know where to find it and then to find it
00:38:30.500and then you have to pay for it. And then it's written in such a way that is so honestly boring
00:38:36.500most of the time are so convoluted or so tangled up that it doesn't just allow somebody to read it
00:38:43.380and then get the information and then do the task, even if it's for something good. And so it's
00:38:49.740really fascinating how university colleges, the system, you know, all of those pieces actually
00:38:57.760keep us so far from being self-sufficient, from being connected to our lands, from being
00:43:37.620It actually just creates the system to continue to be hierarchical.
00:43:43.020So I really am enjoying how you're talking about stop trying to get it from this other place.
00:43:53.500I think that's what you're getting at.
00:43:55.440And so I'm interested to hear more about the self-sufficiency, more about how individuals, communities can stop using so much of their energy and their resources to try to get other people to care to then basically just give them breadcrumbs in return, if anything.
00:44:13.880that's a big mindset that again i'm gonna go back to one of the first thing i said the space that
00:44:23.280needs to be harvested is the space between our two ears that's what's going to change it and
00:44:28.260that's what what we do is about people food is a very small part of it yeah we need food but
00:44:35.240when you put yourself in a place where you understand where you are who you are and what
00:44:42.000really matters to you. We got a world where you got people that would kill somebody over a pair
00:44:47.740of tennis shoes. Think about that. What kind of value system is that? And that's the thing that
00:44:53.060has to change. And a lot of this is celebrity driven. What we're doing with the Ron Finley
00:44:58.720Project is I know a lot of celebrities. They're not standing out there with me. Well, why don't
00:45:04.000you get the celebrity to go do this with you? Because I didn't want this to be celebrity driven.
00:45:08.460I want this to be purpose driven. I want people around me to have a purpose that literally truly wants to change this, not just a name that people want to come see or you're famous. That's not what this is about. We have to change our value system. Everybody.
00:45:24.420Yeah, I think about that a lot, how this system, this current paradigm, it sets us up to value tennis shoes, diamonds, celebrity, but not value oxygen, not value clean water, not value each other, not value our neighbors.
00:45:42.520Like you were saying earlier, you know, we pledge allegiance to the flag.
00:45:45.940We don't pledge allegiance to even the person who lives next door to us.
00:45:49.720We don't pledge allegiance to the creek that runs down a couple miles away.
00:45:54.160So it's, yes, this value system is so, it is the crux.
00:50:27.360and it was amazing so all of this stuff together in this room it was like the sound orchestra so
00:50:34.020they do give off energy plants are alive when you look at sunflowers what do they try to find
00:50:39.980the sun where do they point to when you get a piece of garlic and it starts growing the green
00:50:46.700out we've been taught to throw that away now what you should do is put that in the ground so you can
00:50:52.080have a whole nother bulb of garlic we're not trained like that plants are alive just like
00:50:57.440the earth is alive like water water is alive we don't but we think we turn on the faucet and then
00:51:04.140come on but we don't treat it like it's this element it's alive that's why it will mildew
00:51:09.080that's why it would stink because it's alive it's like food food that doesn't mildew that doesn't
00:51:15.300you know that doesn't get mold on it we got a problem you got a problem so yeah it does it does
00:51:20.720change people's consciousness all of a sudden. I haven't seen a dragonfly in 20 years and stuff
00:51:26.540like that. I have birds that literally come to my garden that I've never seen in my life in South
00:51:31.660Central. It really also shows the resiliency of Mother Nature. And it's a domino effect when you
00:51:40.260start to tend the land, the birds, the bees, the dragonflies, all these incredible creatures.
00:51:46.460they're probably sensing your uh energetic orchestra they do of you of your land of how
00:51:54.440you're you're putting so much care into it and how the community grows and i feel
00:52:00.260it's such an amazing lesson to take a moment and be allured in to then see oh wow this is
00:52:08.020and i think it also i know for me it helps me see that there is such a bigger much bigger system
00:52:14.820going on than even the system that is trying to control us all there's a much much bigger
00:52:19.800uh you said trying to control us all we'll take out the trying we can erase the trying part from
00:52:27.600that yeah controlling us all it's i'm honestly really imagining what your garden must look like
00:52:35.200and how people like you said people just walking down the street and smiling when they see a
00:52:40.860sunflower I mean these are really powerful acts that because we don't value them and because we're
00:52:46.600so infiltrated by commercials social media it it takes us away from that power so I I love all that
00:52:55.020you've been sharing with us and I know that you're really busy on the road and so perhaps we can wrap
00:53:02.260up the conversation with just if you could share with us you know what's the next year look like
00:53:08.900for you how can people get involved what kind of support are you calling in for your projects and
00:53:16.860yeah how can people learn more they can go on our website with the function which is happening
00:53:23.580june the 30th at vermont square park it's just a fun field way that we show people how to have fun
00:53:31.960with very little effort and it's free for the whole community and there's everything from
00:53:37.060circus training to weaving. We have people who make pottery and jump rope and tug of war and
00:53:45.320dancing and live groups. And we had someone last year that you get to make your own facial care
00:53:52.300products. So it's just a fun thing. You made me think of one of the things recently. I have a
00:53:58.840neighbor down the street and her daughters. I have this hut, a twig hut, they call it, that's been
00:54:04.860built on the street, right on the street. And they come, they used to come in and play with
00:54:09.320their dolls and different things. And then all of a sudden I noticed all my blackberries would be
00:54:13.900missing and they would, they, so they, they would come early and eat all my blackberries. But I,
00:54:20.220just last week they came by and they, they brought a friend and they just ran and start
00:54:26.360eating nasturtiums out of the garden. And I asked her, I said, what have you created? She says,
00:54:30.640I didn't do this. You did. You know, and it made me think all of a sudden that I got these young
00:54:36.180girls that are running to the garden to eat flowers out of the garden. So yeah, it could0.73
00:54:42.500happen. Again, it goes back beauty in, beauty out. I literally get to see a change that I've
00:54:50.040had a hand in making and I'm honored by that. Well, thank you, Ron. I'm honored to have had
00:54:56.700this conversation with you today and all of the places you went with us and really helping
00:55:05.040i'm sorry no i love it i love it because like you said we got to get between the ears we have to
00:55:12.820shake each other up to shake off the conditioning so that we can start to see clearly and start to
00:55:21.260value clearly and we need people like you who can crack and find the fissures in our yeah in our
00:55:30.800conditioning to break it and so i really i loved it i loved being able to talk about college and
00:55:37.140the prison industrial complex and the non-profit industrial complex and food growing and and i
00:55:42.720really loved hearing from you how it isn't for you about farming or growing other people's food
00:55:49.220It is, yes, growing your own food, but it's about the self-actualized sustainability of one's self to have the skills, to grow the confidence, to value oneself, to value one's own skills for self-sufficiency.
00:56:07.200that is huge that that really is a is something that isn't talked about because it's been so
00:56:14.580overshadowed by celebrity consumerism alcohol on and on and on like all the things you've talked
00:56:21.220about so i i just really appreciate everywhere you went i appreciate you giving me the time