00:03:31.020And then that creates a whole other book of pages that get really complicated.
00:03:35.740I'm glad that you brought up the post because I really appreciate your platform.
00:03:41.460And I'd love to think through navigating the nuances that come with having an online platform, but also wanting people to take the time to get off their screens and go outside.
00:03:56.760God, I mean, you know, the inception of like social media, like at its like most basic format, I think like the idea behind it was to get people talking and communicating with one another, right?
00:04:08.260Like, I don't know, over a decade ago, 15 years.
00:04:10.680I don't know when you would call the birth of social media, but over the past five and ten years, like five years, especially like since the kind of Trump era, like it's become this thing that has been so divisive across all lines, like not just like simple political lines, but like lifestyle and thoughts on this and that and religion and all sorts of like it's like any way you can make a divide.
00:04:33.160Social media seems to be doing that. So I really try to use my platform, Nerdy About Nature, to kind of try to not necessarily break the divide, but try to get people from across different lines talking and doing that through like an educational platform that focuses on environmental, social, climate issues, like things that teaches people about general ecology and biology of the world that we all share.
00:04:57.700And hopefully like unites people across these different perspectives and gets people talking so that we can work together, ideally like using social media as a social platform, and then using that as a way to like educate people so that when they are out in the world experiencing it, they can form better, stronger relationships to it and a stronger connection to it.
00:05:19.060so that we can like, I don't know, kind of get back to that understanding of our place as fellow
00:05:25.240animals in this world that we all share our place amongst everything, you know, as a part of nature,
00:05:30.420as opposed to apart from nature. So that's kind of like really the goal that I'm trying to do.
00:05:35.820And I guess social media is the medium. And sometimes I question its efficacy, and whether
00:05:42.920it's, it's worth it for my mental health, because it definitely takes a toll at times when you
00:05:46.740deal with people on the daily basis who say that things like climate change isn't real. And there's
00:05:52.120a host of things that the people kind of continue to reach for as part of that kind of divisive
00:05:57.000culture, but just try to hold fast, hold steady and keep trying to educate people regardless of
00:06:02.500where they come from. If that makes any sense. It really does. And I'd really like to hear more
00:06:08.620about the toll it takes on your mental health if you're willing to share, because I think that
00:06:13.560That is a really relatable issue that many people face.
00:06:17.460And while folks are looking for connection, they often find that debilitating pain of
00:06:27.880And in an interview with Outside Magazine, you say, quote, righteousness can be reductionist
00:06:33.240when we are only conveying some ethical or moral judgment, like that everybody who works
00:06:38.600for oil and gas is evil or anyone who has ever cut down a tree is wrong.
00:06:42.740you lose the human element it's so important to hold on to a sense of humanity otherwise we're
00:06:48.560doing a disservice to these ideas and movements because we aren't taking aim at the true root of
00:06:53.860the problem which is the systems in which we live like capitalism which promotes extraction and
00:06:59.500exploitation of the land and communities to maximize profit end quote so yeah if you could
00:07:05.020just explore with us the toll on mental health and really how can we find space for nuance
00:07:11.360in a world that really highlights polarization and even dehumanization.
00:07:17.780You know, so often I get messages from people like asking me how I stay positive and optimistic
00:07:23.580in this world, given all that I do, because I really like from a forward facing, like everyone
00:07:27.920in some sense on social media, whereas some type of mask, quote unquote, you know, like you're
00:07:32.820portraying something and people like, oh, yeah, you're always so optimistic and positive. Like,
00:07:36.200how do you do it? And like, the reality is, is that I am human, just like all of us. And like,
00:07:40.580these are very difficult times to be living amongst like everything is in question you know
00:07:46.020not only like our attachments to what we thought life and society would be you know we're all told
00:07:51.760growing up you know you get a job and the government helps and you do all this stuff and
00:07:56.320then you know you retire everything like our whole structure of of what we thought life meant was
00:08:01.840supposed to be is kind of thrown up into this ambiguous questioning right now because our
00:08:05.980future is so uncertain in so many ways if you're paying attention to the science
00:08:10.780Now, the issue with that is that the people who are paying attention to science, like
00:08:14.740see this, and then they try to tell people about it because it is a big deal.
00:08:18.480But then that gets labeled as like alarmism, or it's so easy for anybody who works in an
00:08:25.140industry, kind of those at the top of the industry, people who kind of run the capitalist
00:08:29.360systems we live in, use that as a way to continue to divide people and spread misinformation
00:08:34.180to keep people from even agreeing on the basic science, which is going to only prolong
00:08:38.760long action that's only going to keep us in this situation for longer and kind of further their
00:08:43.740income. It's horribly depressing at times. So I don't know, when you look at a bigger picture of
00:08:49.080it all, I try to do the best that I can on like a personal level to like stay grounded and rooted
00:08:55.260with my surroundings, the people around me, my dog, you know, get out on the land. It's so easy
00:09:00.160to get sucked into that world of division and feed into that system that is just kind of keeps us
00:09:07.840from talking together and working with one another as a means of actually creating any
00:09:13.320positive change. Try to get out on the land and remember what it's all worth. Thinking about
00:09:18.940that quote that you read, yeah, so many of the issues we face are boiled down with different
00:09:25.700sects of society, at least in the media and how things tend to be painted in an issue like logging
00:09:31.920per se. This age-old issue since the war in the woods here in Canada, and then down in the States
00:09:36.120was the timber wars down in Oregon. So kind of like the mid 90s, you know, it was this classic
00:09:39.680thing where it was like pitched as loggers versus environmentalists, people trying to save the owls
00:09:44.500versus saving jobs. Anytime you heard about it in the media, that's how it was pitched. It was
00:09:48.800pitched as like grassroots people against people in a community when the reality is, at the end of
00:09:54.380the day, we all want the same thing, whether you're a logger or environmentalist, or however you want
00:09:58.680to identify yourself or somebody else, we all want to be living healthy, happy lives. We all want to
00:10:04.040have space to explore and be part of the outdoors, be connected to nature. We want to bring our kids
00:10:09.180there. We want our kids to leave happy, healthy lives. We all want the same things, yet we're
00:10:14.640stuck in these arbitrary arguments with one another over issues that aren't really up to
00:10:19.540the people at the top to create true solutions. We as citizens in a quote-unquote democracy,
00:10:25.200whether or not you believe it's actually a functional democracy is a whole other subject,
00:10:28.660But we theoretically should have the ability to be like, hey, this system isn't working.
00:10:34.560You, the government, we need you to look out for the people here because we are all suffering collectively, whether it's job loss in the logging industry or whether it's habitat loss and environmental degradation on the environmental landscape of things.
00:10:47.740We're all suffering because of the way this industry is operating.
00:10:50.340But instead of creating that change, the people who run the industry who are also tied in with the lobbyists that create policy, everybody up top kind of keeps the people down below bickering and fighting with one another and preventing any real change from actually happening because it's just so easy to galvanize people and keep the masses fighting with one another instead of directing the energy up top.
00:11:09.960And so that is a horribly daunting thing, especially in this age of social media and technology.
00:11:16.060Like everything is just so easily manipulated and thrown into the fire.
00:11:21.060Like you can just take one thing somebody says, make a meme of it, twist it and turn it.
00:11:25.280And then like you'll have people who are just who will, if they subscribe to an idea, they will stick with that till the very end instead of listening to reason and fact and science.
00:11:35.740The same science that gives them the phones that they argue on, they will use to the ends to argue that climate change isn't real, that different forestry practices aren't better for the ecosystems while also creating jobs.
00:11:47.760If you're just stuck in that mindset of thinking you only know what you know and unable to learn and adapt and see the world through new eyes, it's endlessly destructive.
00:11:57.800I don't know. I'm kind of getting overwhelmed even thinking about it.
00:12:00.000It's all good. It's impossible to answer the most challenging questions of our time succinctly.
00:12:05.740I think it's a stream of consciousness works.
00:12:09.220We're thinking and guessing and hoping while we try to find a way out of the madness.
00:12:15.140To that point, with the way that social media has kind of trained all of us, even myself included,
00:12:21.200and like, oh, like I feel guilty for not being able to answer you succinctly here as my mind rambles down these endless wormholes of despair about the reality of the world we live in.
00:12:30.220you know we're all trained to have want to have just like a quick 30 second amazing soundbite
00:12:35.520that like is good and it packs a punch and it goes viral and all that stuff we all want to
00:12:40.100condense things into like a short easy to digest thing and that's for the most part what i try to
00:12:46.040do with my videos but they're like you know a minute minute and a half to five minutes sometimes
00:12:50.320and i try really hard to break down very complex nuanced issues in succinct soundbites for people
00:12:56.400But the reality is, is that in order to create any meaningful solutions, we have to have a very deep understanding of these issues.
00:13:04.220And that requires the ability to have a lot of nuanced, long-winded conversations, hear all the different angles, and be able to take in a lot of things that you can't just easily dumb down to a 30-second soundbite.
00:13:15.840It's challenging because we need to meet people where they're at and grab people's attention and attention span is so short. But then at the same time, these issues aren't black and white and they need so much discussion and room for patience and room for changing of our understandings of things.
00:13:35.940openness, I think takes time. It takes trust. It's interesting that you bring up the logging
00:13:40.640debacle. I was so anti-logging for so long because I grew up on the West Coast and I
00:13:48.840was exploring as a young adult, what were these great old growth timber rainforests of California,
00:13:55.860Oregon and Washington and BC and seeing the checkerboard of clear cuts and plantation forests
00:14:02.540And then slivers of old growth that I would search for trying to find the last remnants. And when I'd get into the old growth forest, I would feel so at ease and enchanted and mesmerized and intrigued and comforted. And this is it. This is worth living for. This is everything.
00:14:20.760And so any type of tree cutting I was so angry about. And I can understand that. I don't blame myself. And then as I've gotten older and I have been working in rural communities for the last decade now, really realizing the nuance.
00:14:37.080I try to hang out with industry people because I don't want to be somebody who just sits in the ivory tower or sits on a couch and says, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, when I really don't actually understand what they're thinking or their worldview.
00:14:51.500And I think it actually makes my, whether you want to call it activism, stronger to understand other people and not just alienate.
00:14:58.940I was in my little cabin and this tree cutter came over and maybe I was crying about tree
00:15:05.000cutting and they were like, well, you know, you heat your house with wood, don't you?
00:17:52.380if you're trying to encourage people to rethink what they're paying attention to
00:18:02.860you know if you're talking about a big leaf maple maybe somebody who's walked by a big
00:18:07.120leaf maple for a hundred times never thought about it the way that you're inviting people
00:18:11.740into something different yeah i think there's multiple facets of it and the one that it started
00:18:16.620with the major one is just getting people to be aware of what's around them so that's like general
00:18:20.900plant ID, fun facts about things that they see all around them that they maybe hadn't thought
00:18:25.880about, or certainly hadn't thought about since second or third grade, you know, when you kind
00:18:29.740of learn about what photosynthesis is at a very basic age and oh yeah, plants take energy from
00:18:35.000the sun and, you know, convert sugars. And then you kind of, you never think about that in life,
00:18:39.800unless you're going into like the sciences and biology or something like that. Like for everybody
00:18:43.340else, it's like you learned it once and then you tuned it out. So being able to like re-spark,
00:18:47.680reignite that spark of passion for people, they'll think, wow, how incredible it really is
00:18:53.300that a tree or anything that has photobiance in it is able to take energy from the sun
00:18:59.100to break down water and carbon dioxide to form complex carbohydrates and releasing oxygen.
00:19:06.860That is insane. When you can instill little bits of wonder back in people, it changes the way that
00:19:12.860people look at the world. Then you're walking around the world and suddenly you notice the
00:19:15.880things you hadn't noticed before. Because you're like, oh my god, that's a big leaf maple. And I
00:19:20.420can't believe that they have, you know, canopy roots way up in their crowns that will punch out
00:19:25.580into like little pockets of mosses, all those epiphytes they store on those branches, and they
00:19:29.400will actually use that to survive during the summer months. That's incredible. You know, it's
00:19:33.120like if more people knew about all these fun facts, it would change our relationship to the
00:19:36.820world around us. So that's kind of like the first big pillar there. The second one that's kind of
00:19:40.940evolved from this project being what it is, is just trying to engage people in constructive
00:19:48.660conversation again. I say again, but I actually don't know when that has ever really been
00:19:54.520happening. But I guess trying to engage people in constructive conversation. Because so often
00:20:00.360on social media and the internet, it's easy to like, if you see something you disagree with,
00:20:04.780it's anonymous, you can write some hateful comments, hit send and disappear and never
00:20:09.240have to deal with it things that you would never say to people's faces right so i really try and
00:20:15.020certainly it was easier when the account was smaller now it's it's pretty um overwhelming
00:20:19.300but i really try to engage with people whether in the comments or the dm section like try to
00:20:25.380like when they have genuine questions and aren't just trying to like troll or stir the pot like i
00:20:30.760will really try to constructively engage and get people talking so that we can reach better
00:20:34.820understanding and try to have patience where I can to like really walk people through these things
00:20:41.160because the more we're all able to understand and know about the world around us and everything that
00:20:46.220we share, like I mentioned, it changes our relationship to everything. So really just
00:20:50.620trying to get people talking and communicating even when we don't see eye to eye on everything.
00:20:56.480And I think that's kind of the beauty of it. We've been so trained, like I said, to kind of
00:21:03.600be in these silos based on values or religion or whatever it is. And we don't look at anybody else
00:21:11.020or talk to anybody else like this kind of like, quote, unquote, like new age tribalism, you know,
00:21:15.420you like you stick to your group of people and you don't talk to anybody else. But that's not
00:21:19.800how society works and functions. Like we're not isolated. Like we all shop at the same grocery
00:21:24.600store. Like we all like we all are part of society. So you have to talk to people, you have
00:21:29.900to work with people and engage with people. And I'm trying to get people to do that in a way that
00:21:35.940is accepting of the fact that we might not agree on everything. We might not come from the same
00:21:42.960backgrounds. We might have differing perspectives on things, but we can still work together. We can
00:21:47.780still work to figure things out. Your example before about recognizing that you live in a wood
00:21:54.860home and you burn wood for energy. That's like a great awareness to have. And one of the things
00:22:00.300that I have to bring up with people and challenge people to think about is it's, yes, it's like that
00:22:04.760for wood. And trees are a very easy way to see that our resource extraction, colonial capitalist
00:22:11.120society takes a thing, turns it into something else, a commodity, and then it becomes part of
00:22:15.660daily life. But that same thing holds true with anything in your life, whether it be the metal
00:22:21.040knobs on your dresser the glass in a coffee cup the paint on the walls like the plastic you know
00:22:26.880like all the fossil fuels that were fossilized thousands and millions of years ago all that
00:22:32.540comes from the earth and we're using all of these things as resources and they they don't ever go
00:22:37.820away you know they're we're all still part of this system you can't just throw it in a dump and like
00:22:42.440turn a blind eye and it goes away like it is always part of us it's always part of the world
00:22:47.260Being able to be aware of where these resources come from, the socioeconomic kind of structures that keep that in place there that have got us to that point, I think is a really good thing to be aware of, because that's where you can use that knowledge to talk with other people of different perspectives and find a new way of going about it.
00:23:05.320When we talk about logging, even in everything that I do, I'm not anti-logging. I'm anti-doing
00:23:11.540it in a way that destroys the ecological function of the world that we live in and biodiversity and
00:23:16.340community. I'm anti-clear-cut logging because there is no way to do that sustainably. If you
00:23:21.540look at the people who justify clear-cut logging and say, oh, it replicates natural disturbances
00:23:26.660like fires and yada yada, and you're like, okay, that might be true in a very broad bird's eye
00:23:33.320view but then you get down to the nitty-gritty and this is where you get into the nuance where
00:23:37.260it's like okay clear cuts wildfires if you're trying to say that they're the same like a clear
00:23:41.840cut removes all the large woody debris and leaves the fine woody materials on the forest floor here
00:23:46.180which sparks more wildfires whereas a wildfire tends to burn the fine fuels and leave the bigger
00:23:50.960woody debris you know tree trunks and things standing which become wildlife trees and serve
00:23:54.660home as the forest kind of regenerates so it's like on the nuance level it's like okay that's
00:23:58.340not the same, but even if we're like, well, okay, we'll go along with this, this excuse you're
00:24:03.140using. Those wildfires only happen in certain ecosystems. Fire is a natural part of every
00:24:07.980forest ecosystem, but it happens on different timescales and small plots of land, like relatively
00:24:13.100small because natural forest ecosystems are resilient to wildfires. So it would happen,
00:24:18.600you know, every 80 to a hundred years in the interior of the continent, maybe more frequently,
00:24:23.960like on like 20 to 40 year time scales. And on the coast, like where I normally live out on
00:24:29.320Vancouver Island in the Cholmuth Territory, those fires, that's a forest ecosystem that has never
00:24:34.920historically had wildfires at all. So never. In those ecosystems, like clear cutting is not a
00:24:41.420natural way for a forest to experience a disturbance. And when you look at the frequency
00:24:45.840and scale at which that's happened, almost 90% of the forests all across Turtle Island, that's
00:24:51.720you know, North America, United States and Canada have been leveled to the ground in the method of
00:24:58.240a clear cut, quote unquote, in just the past 150 years, when historically, these wildfires,
00:25:04.100like any disturbances that look similar to that would only be five to 10% of the landscape at any
00:25:09.600given time on hundreds of your time scale. So it's like, this is not a natural thing that we're
00:25:13.900doing. There's no way to justify that we shouldn't be continuing to do that. So you look at that one
00:25:19.280little bit. You're like, okay, clear-cutting is bad. But that's not the same as saying end-all
00:25:24.900logging. It's saying, how can we work with the fallers, work with the people who work on the
00:25:29.580ground here, who are trying to feed their families, who are trying to pay their mortgages, who are
00:25:33.580trying to continue to live and exist in society and want to live a life? This is a job. This is
00:25:37.820an ends to a means. How can we work in a way where we change the economic model so we're no longer
00:25:44.100having to clear cut in order to get wood we can do closed canopy selective harvesting things that
00:25:49.440keep the ecological and hydrological function of these forest ecosystems intact while still
00:25:54.700being able to use it as a resource because humans are like i've mentioned are wild animals we've
00:26:00.580always been active parts of these ecosystems not apart from them we will always need and have a
00:26:05.420use for wood but how can we do it differently where we can maintain jobs and communities where
00:26:10.300we don't have, you know, the boom and bust of logging towns that is so familiar in the Cascadian
00:26:16.120bioregion. You drive anywhere from BC down through Washington, Oregon and Northern California. There
00:26:21.360are so many little ghost towns of what used to be booming cultural hubs where logging happened in
00:26:26.520the 60s and 70s, but, you know, unrestrained clear cutting. And then all of a sudden they're out of
00:26:32.180it and the economy crashes and people have to move out. People lose their jobs. Those who stay,
00:26:36.960you know struggle to survive drug addiction becomes a thing it's like it's not a sustainable
00:26:41.660way to be doing business so the more that we can understand you know the nuance of the ecological
00:26:47.140functions the nuance of the biodiversity the nuance of all the kind of sciencey bits that like
00:26:52.580relate to our relationship with the world as well as the social economic things that kind of create
00:26:58.480the system that we live in we can find ways to talk across differing party lines to unite on kind
00:27:04.040of the reality, the science, be like, okay, we know that this doesn't work. We know that this
00:27:11.120doesn't work. Let's try something different. Let's work together to find a solution that
00:27:15.440works for everybody. That's kind of like the meat of what I'm really trying to get people doing is
00:27:22.500step one, becoming aware of your surroundings. Step two, talking with people about the way that
00:27:28.660we use our surroundings so that we can do it better? How do we, as the masses, kind of unite
00:27:33.960in our beliefs and our values of wanting to have a safe world for our children, of having jobs,
00:27:40.340of having healthy landscapes, that we don't have to worry about drought every summer and wildfires?
00:27:45.340Because all of these are symptoms of, yes, climate change, but also poor management of
00:27:49.160our landscapes. It's like, how can we all unite in a way where we can influence change to the top
00:27:54.0601% who really don't want things to change because they benefit immensely from having things the way
00:27:59.140that they are. And that's, that's where it all starts, you know, understanding and communicating.
00:28:06.240I hear you. It is. It's a real, that was a long winded tangent, but I hope I brought that back.
00:28:13.540No, it actually like revitalized me. It like touched that part that I'm like, yes, yes, yes.
00:28:20.960We need to always circle back around to how we get out of it, because there will be nothing left if we don't stop now. And we're already, gosh, we're so on the edge. You see the numbers and it's 4% of all old growth redwoods left. It's very, very small percent. It's always under 10% of whales, forests, everything that is so life-giving, but heartfelt.
00:38:22.600Wanting to kind of stick with the reconnection, disconnection to nature theme,
00:38:46.220I thought we could dig a little bit into the contradictions of outdoor recreation
00:38:52.700industry culture in an interview with outside magazine you say quote especially coming from
00:38:59.520an outdoor sports background a lot of my experiences in the outdoors have been shallow
00:39:03.940and self-centered but skiing amongst the trees made me want to understand the environments I
00:39:08.520was recreating in I wanted to know the ecology of those places as I learned more it gave me a deeper
00:39:14.320sense of companionship for those spaces because I was no longer just looking at them as expendable
00:39:19.560things for me to jump off of or ski around. And with greater connection comes responsibility,
00:39:25.480end quote. So I thought you could respond with maybe sharing a bit of your personal history
00:39:32.240with outdoor recreation. And then maybe how has the outdoor recreation industry contributed to
00:39:39.100a more shallow or even extractive relationship to the outdoors?
00:39:43.440Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, I've often wrestled with this and had conversations with
00:39:49.460friends and stuff about whether or not recreation is an extractive resource. In many cases,
00:39:54.380it definitely fits the bill. I can't say that many industries or many aspects of the industry
00:40:00.120really give back to the land and those who live amongst them, aside from just the people.
00:40:05.140Yeah, I mean, I was super fortunate to have grown up skiing at a young age, you know, my dad's out of the family. That's what they did. So when I was like two years old, I was on skis. And we owned a family ski cabin with like me and my three cousins families. And we all just every weekend, we just pack that thing full. It's up like 18 people. So it's like me and all my cousins just every weekend going up there and skiing. And so it was very much like a part of who I was. And it was great. You know, some of my favorite memories come from
00:40:35.120that time. It was physically active. It was great for mental health. It was the thing where I first
00:40:41.080kind of really discovered independence. Like I could pick my own line down a mountain. I could
00:40:45.040do my own thing. And then like the only thing that was resting on whether or not I got down
00:40:48.960there was myself. You know, it wasn't like a team sport necessarily where there was like all the
00:40:53.720pressure on you. It was, it would, I feel like it's a really good place for people to find and
00:40:58.960know themselves um skiing biking hiking any sort of like outdoor thing it's like when you're out
00:41:05.520there with just you like relying just on yourself to like do a certain thing it's really empowering
00:41:11.980in a way and a lot of there's a lot of things in society that don't give you that same that same
00:41:17.500aspect of of that sort of empowerment so it's really great like that but at the same time
00:41:23.120there's no denying the hypocrisy skis are not environmentally cheap to produce nor is the
00:41:29.160outerwear the goggles any of the stuff that you wear especially like in the 90s when i was like
00:41:33.440growing up no one had wool it was all synthetic you know and like now it's better because there
00:41:37.820are a lot of really good wool companies out there that are getting back to natural fibers but skis
00:41:42.800and outerwear is still horribly environmentally expensive to create not only that but then like
00:41:47.880the access element you know a majority of people do their riding from lift access stuff and then
00:41:53.700they're the goal you know the glorified thing in the industry is to be able to afford to go on a
00:41:58.180heli ski trip somewhere or cat skiing or something or fly around the world to go visit all these
00:42:04.160amazing places and like i have done a bit of that you know like i've gone i've been to japan a few
00:42:10.080times love japan like the culture the snow everything's incredible i've partaken in that
00:42:14.820system but i think like for a lot of people that's where it stops you know like that's kind of like
00:42:21.760the end goal is this like consumption based thing where like i'm gonna ski around the world and i'm
00:42:27.040gonna ski the best pal i'm gonna make it i'm gonna like it's like a very kind of greedy thing like
00:42:32.240oh i scored those conditions the surf was firing that day it was just me out you know and everybody's
00:42:36.900kind of like racing to do this thing in a very highly competitive way but not in your kind of
00:42:41.500standard you know football like broncos versus the chiefs i don't know i don't know football
00:42:47.160that was a terrible analogy but you know what i mean like it's not like that same kind of
00:42:50.940competition dynamic yet the hypocrisy of like using all these fossil fuels and resources to
00:42:55.920do this for a very selfish pursuit is often overlooked so for me like you know i grew up
00:43:02.820not only going skiing but like you know i was out playing in the mud and like lived close to a
00:43:07.280forest. And in the 90s, that was still when you could like go outside and play in the mud and
00:43:13.180in the forest behind school during recess. I don't think they let kids do that anymore.
00:43:17.660So like I kind of already had like a connection to nature in the woods and things and then going
00:43:22.520out and kind of having a background in biology and continuing to read about things and ecology
00:43:27.420and understand things like it gave me a really amazing lens to kind of go to those places through
00:43:32.620and see like you know the evolving ecology of mountainous regions and like that's that's awesome
00:43:39.940that was like part of like what birthed this whole nerdy about nature project for me i think there's
00:43:44.420a lot of room for people to continue to do that because even as is like the industry is still a
00:43:49.560very shallow one like it's it's amazing because it gets people out onto the lands and gets them
00:43:55.440forming connections which as i've mentioned is kind of the basis of any sort of stewardship for
00:44:00.680like you have to care about something in order to want to protect it to want to keep it in a good
00:44:06.860healthy state so that's amazing but the way that we're going about it is still um just not that
00:44:14.880thoughtful and i think you know there's a lot of like band-aid solutions that that you know big
00:44:22.060companies are trying to offer like you know heli ski companies will offset their emissions so
00:44:27.440they're quote unquote carbon neutral, but it's like, dude, you're burning fucking jet A fuel
00:44:31.000for hours. Like there's no way you're carbon neutral. Ski resorts will be powered by, you
00:44:36.000know, biofuel or wind power or something, which is like, okay, cool. That's a start. Sure. But
00:44:40.400that's still just like looking at the mechanical operations of things. Like what's the impact on
00:44:44.240the lands when you have hundreds of thousands of people coming up spending hundreds of dollars a
00:44:48.200day, like it's ridiculously expensive. So it's like, again, all kind of feeding into that
00:44:52.400capitalist mindset. I think there's a lot to be rethought with again, like wilderness areas,
00:44:57.440quote unquote wilderness, these wild lands, these ways to get onto the land and do things
00:45:02.340and bring community into it. You have to also remember that all of these sports, well, yeah,
00:45:08.840most of them, I would say like 99% of them are still happening and taking place on stolen
00:45:13.840indigenous lands. And very little of that actually goes back to supporting the indigenous communities
00:45:18.440who have stewarded those landscapes since time immemorial, you know, for literally thousands
00:45:23.660and thousands of years. So I think there's like a lot of opportunity moving forward,
00:45:27.940like rethinking things. And one of the things that I'm really strongly advocating for is
00:45:32.360indigenous run and led tourism operations and tribal park areas where it's managed by the local
00:45:38.940nations and the proceeds to that go to supporting that nation to give them a means of surviving in
00:45:46.940a post-colonial or, sorry, still a colonial world, like a world that is not inherently
00:45:52.960rigged for them to succeed, you know, like these communities.
00:45:57.640So doing that in a way that helps support communities so they can continue to grow and
00:46:03.200thrive and steward these lands in a way that doesn't involve them, you know, extracting
00:46:07.820the resources in a more material way in the form of logging or mining and doing it in
00:46:13.960So recreation isn't an extractive resource on like the invisible stuff, you know, like sucking the soul and the life out of out of an area by loving it to death, you know, like we need to be able to show restraint and use foot powered traffic, you know, biking up places like I think it would be amazing to have a ski area where like where there's like logging roads and you could like bike to the trail entrance and then like ski tour up and then ski down.
00:46:39.300And it's like, yeah, it's like a longer process.
00:46:42.040It's a lot more work, but like you're forming a much more genuine and authentic connection
00:46:47.980to the land instead of just using it as a resource, as like looking for like pillow
00:46:53.120lines and downed trees to ride and all sorts of different features.
00:46:56.460Like obviously you're still looking for that because that's like where the fun of it is.
00:46:59.580It's not just in that take, take, take mentality.
00:47:01.920And it's like, you have to like work for it and earn your turns.
00:47:04.840I think there's a lot that we can learn going back to the reciprocity of things and learning how to connect to these lands and better steward them.
00:47:12.580And I think that the more you understand about, as I mentioned previously, our social economic systems and the ecology of an area, you realize that there's no way that capitalism really works better these environments, these ecosystems.
00:47:26.520You know, we have to find a new way of thinking about the way that we interact with it and like use it for social, social, personal, mental health, all sorts of different values beyond the myopic resource extraction model.
00:47:39.500Oh, just kind of sitting in the complexity with you and feeling into the many pieces and my origin story of how I found out about you, which was during the Ferry Creek blockade. And so maybe we could end on taking some time to hear about your involvement with that movement and how you see land defense as central to your work. Maybe any updates on the Ferry Creek front.
00:48:05.680See, for those who are unfamiliar, Ferry Creek blockades is now to date the single largest act of civil disobedience in all of Canadian history. And this is a really interesting, it's an interesting thing, just as a tangent before we get into all this, like, I love how COVID was the taste of socialism that we needed to really kind of like, get some change going, you know, like, without COVID, like, I know it was horrible and miserable for a lot of people and lockdown was awful.
00:48:32.260But like, that was the first time people were kind of broken free of their daily nine to
00:48:36.380five grind and can actually think about things and be like, hey, you know, you shouldn't
00:48:41.500treat people like George Floyd like this.
00:48:43.260Like, let's have a Black Lives Matter kind of uprising, you know, like that would have
00:48:46.740never happened if it wasn't for COVID.
00:49:02.100This doesn't make sense. Let's put our foot down and stand up against it. So that's amazing. I think that's just like a little asterisk of like, yeah, see, socialism can be a good thing. Look at the way the French deal with things. It's like when things go wrong, they riot. They use their voice because they can't afford to. They're not living necessarily paycheck to paycheck. They have social support systems that ensure they're going to be able to survive even if they miss a day at work.
00:49:24.640So Ferry Creek was this thing happened during the pandemic where, you know, of all the watersheds on Vancouver Island, most, a majority of them have been logged, again, clear cut logged. And on the southern part of Vancouver Island, there was this, there's one watershed known as Ferry Creek. And it's just, it's in Pachadot territory, just outside of Port Renfrew on southern tip of Vancouver Island. And it was slated to be logged by a private company known as Teal Jones.
00:49:49.680And at the same time, this report had been put out by Drs. Rachel Holt, Karen Price and Dave Dost, who, again, wouldn't have had the time to put the report out if it hadn't been for COVID.
00:50:00.160They credit the COVID lockdown as the thing that gave them the time to put the report out.
00:50:05.100And that is basically the thing that triggered this whole movement, because in that report, they detailed the lack of old growth forests remaining in the province.
00:50:11.880And I could go into the weeds here on the numbers with you, but basically it's like 2.7% of the most highest productivity forest that ever exists in the province is remaining.
00:50:21.520There's a lot of nuances with old growth definitions, you know, high productivity versus low productivity.
00:50:25.960Again, I could go into the weeds of this, but I'm just going to keep this very overview.
00:50:29.400Basically, the government likes to say there's a lot of old growth left when in reality, you know, they say about 20% of forest is old growth.
00:50:35.200But a reality, a majority of that is low productivity old growth that hasn't been logged, isn't threatened to be logged because it's in areas like high alpine environments or boggy marshes.
00:50:44.740And all of the really good, big, massive old growth forests, the thing that you think about when you picture an old growth forest, you know, those all lie in valley bottoms, riverbeds, like very easy access places where a lot of development has happened.
00:50:57.440like the townships of Vancouver and Victoria, those were initially logging towns and ports
00:51:02.280where logging occurred, and then they continued to build outward. All that old growth, it's a
00:51:07.500very slim percentage left, very little is standing, and even less of it is protected.
00:51:14.420So this whole movement got people out into the woods at Ferry Creek, protesting, blockading,
00:51:19.200stopping logging from happening. And then it exposed a really horrible dark side of the
00:51:24.540colonial system we live in with the RCMP just violently abusing land defenders in the most
00:51:31.340horrific of ways, covering badges, no accountability, covering their faces, literally beating people,
00:51:37.000pepper spraying people. Horrible, horrible, horrible videos started coming out of the woods
00:51:42.560about all of this because this is an area where there wasn't cell service. So everything, there
00:51:46.200was like a delay on it. And the things that were coming out of there was just, it was awful. It was
00:51:50.940incredibly depressing to know that there was that little old growth left. And then to also know that
00:51:56.660the industrial arm that was trying to log and is still trying and is still logging the last of that
00:52:02.620old growth is so heavily supported by the colonial government that exists in this province, in this
00:52:10.320country, on this entire continent. And that's a really difficult thing to grasp. I didn't go to
00:52:18.120the blockades because I know myself and I know I have a big mouth and I can run it really well.
00:52:24.540And so I just was like, if I go and I'm going to get arrested. So I abstained from going because
00:52:29.300I was going through some legal stuff and I just couldn't have risked it. But I had just started
00:52:35.100this amazing little account called Nerdy About Nature. And I was talking about trees and all
00:52:39.680sorts of stuff and old growth that had been something dear to me. So it became like the
00:52:43.520perfect medium to actually use that platform to educate people on all of the nuances of the
00:52:49.180numbers that I've mentioned previously and the situation and offering solutions. And so that's
00:52:56.300been an ongoing thing where I was really active in getting people engaged in these conversations
00:53:02.580and activating them on a policy level to sign waivers and petitions and go rally and use their
00:53:09.580voice in, again, a so-called democracy. Theoretically, we should be able to use our
00:53:14.120voices to stand up for the things we believe in. And I'm still kind of on that plight. I'm still
00:53:20.080offering solutions and still doing solutions videos, but this is twofold tangent here.
00:53:25.760Social media only rewards divisiveness. If I post a video that is like ranting about something
00:53:31.360that's like wrong with the world, it sees millions of views. If I post a video that is
00:53:36.320solutions base that is like, hey, here is a viable solution where we can maintain jobs and economy and
00:53:41.060build communities, strengthen our ecosystems, do all this stuff. It sees maybe a couple hundred
00:53:46.280views. It's ridiculous how the algorithm favors content that drives conflict. And so that's
00:53:51.800really annoying and depressing to still kind of like exist with today and to still trying to find
00:53:57.200ways to challenge the algorithm so I can make something that like gets people thinking in a
00:54:01.140positive, constructive manner and get seen, but without being too positive and optimistic that
00:54:05.280nobody sees it at all because the algorithm doesn't favor that. And then also now to be,
00:54:09.860what is it, 2024? So yeah, four years down the line since Ferry Creek began. And to see the lack
00:54:17.200of integrity in the government doing what they said they were going to do. Broad overview of it
00:54:22.700is that they've basically started a lot of really slow working processes that makes it look like
00:54:28.880they're doing a lot to actively protect things. And they are doing things in the realm of like
00:54:33.820supporting indigenous nations and taking control of their land back their land and resources and
00:54:38.580working with those who have chosen to defer logging on their territories to create sustainable
00:54:43.520ways to protect those forests into the future it's amazing but it's like still just like a sliver like
00:54:48.400for example in october they announced the province of british columbia announced that they would give
00:54:52.760300 million to sustaining these nations who chose to defer logging on their territory for the next
00:54:58.480I think it's a 10 year thing. So $300 million for 10 years. Meanwhile, the province still
00:55:04.400subsidizes the clear like companies, private and public companies that do clear cut logging on
00:55:10.100these lands, $365 million every year. So it's like, yes, it's great that you're supporting
00:55:16.420indigenous like land back and sovereignty and giving them access again to the resources that
00:55:21.640you stole from them 150 years ago but you're still also still can like allowing the system
00:55:29.440to continue as it is and meanwhile everything that's like not outside of fairy creek like
00:55:33.940fairy creek kind of stole the limelight like everything north island has just been obliterated
00:55:38.720you know anywhere anywhere where the industry saw could be threatened where their logging tenures
00:55:44.460could be threatened in the next couple years they just went full steam ahead and they're not even
00:55:48.040like they just like are clearing the land like cutting everything and leaving it on the ground
00:55:52.080and they're going to take it out later because they know as long as they cut it and it's on the
00:55:55.860ground they can still have access to it later so it's like just created a rush of more old
00:56:02.800growth logging you know old growth logging actually went up in 2021 versus down like the
00:56:07.340government had said it was and so it's it's created all these other things they've quelled
00:56:11.780the protests and they've quelled the uprising by saying that they're doing stuff and the stuff
00:56:16.840they're doing has its merits, but it's happening so slowly when the real thing that needs to happen
00:56:23.420is just like a hard stop on the industry so we can reassess what the heck is going on. So we can
00:56:30.780take a look and take stock of things. Every time you hear an update on how much old growth is
00:56:35.460remaining, the real number is less than that because they've logged it since they've done
00:56:39.560that. Many of the deferrals that they deferred, a majority of those were logged. So it's just,
00:56:45.700I don't know. This is where me, again, as a human experiencing human emotions, struggles to be optimistic sometimes. I appreciate you for sharing that bit of empathy towards the 1% earlier. And that's amazing. I'm trying to channel that now. How can I be empathetic to people in this system?
00:57:07.220but it's like the system is still largely failing the people and how do you like short of a
00:57:15.760revolution like how do you change that in in a system that is like designed and supposed to be
00:57:21.080one that suits the needs of the people where we're supposed to have equal voices for every
00:57:25.880individual they still only listen to the voices of the corporations and like that's like a horribly
00:57:32.620depressing reality to come to terms with. I'm still wrapping my head around it, still trying
00:57:37.200my best to be a part of these conversations and push for change. I still hold strong in thinking
00:57:43.060that the best way to do that is through education and through empowering people through knowledge
00:57:47.580so that they can have more nuanced, well-rounded, understanding conversations with people so that
00:57:53.080we can reach solutions. But at some point, those solutions aren't ever going to happen if the
00:57:58.980system doesn't allow them to. And that's kind of where we're at right now.
00:58:02.880I mean, I think that the rage and the anger towards the 1% is valid, and in ways beautiful,
00:58:10.000because it's acknowledging the destruction that they are leading. I think for me, the empathy
00:58:16.120comes in with trying to psychologically and spiritually understand what is really going on
00:58:21.720here. And I'm interested in like understanding these humans that are just humans that are holding
00:58:29.180so much power. And I feel like if I can get into that space, just like getting into the space of
00:58:35.880the logger or the tree cutter or whoever, it's like, what's really going on here? I would say
00:58:40.740the rage that you're speaking to or the anger or the frustration is, to me, it's a real respectful
00:58:47.580acknowledging and witnessing of what's really happening.
00:59:11.720And I don't necessarily think they're doing it in a consciously selfish way.
00:59:15.240I think it's their complacency within the system that allows it to continue doing the things that it's doing is what's really frustrating, because it's like, ideally, you vote politicians into a system to create change, but then they run into the same hurdles that we are experiencing, where it's like, you can't create change in a system that doesn't actually want to change. So it's not the people, it's like the system, like, how do you how do you change the system through people? I don't know.
00:59:41.780to be continued probably for forever and ever and ever these questions so gosh thanks so much
00:59:50.720for sitting in the complexity with me and mulling it all over i hope we can connect again in the
00:59:56.160future yeah likewise thank you so much for having me on for the wild is one of my absolute favorite
01:00:00.560podcasts so i'm just absolutely honored to be able to speak with you here truly been a pleasure