00:05:38.280I have a film from 2017 called Dislocation Blues that was more or less about Standing Rock and the movement there throughout 2016 and early 2017.
00:05:49.700And when I was going there, I went there three separate times for a week at a time.
00:05:54.820And so I would drive from Milwaukee, where I was living, to North Dakota, to Standing Rock.
00:05:59.140And it was about a 10, 12-hour drive each way.
00:06:02.060And I just remember this feeling of driving there and not knowing what to expect, but then also returning and not knowing what to expect.
00:06:10.680you know like being in this one place that was full of native peoples from all over and really
00:06:16.980practicing this you know the putting into practice decolonization and these sort of things that
00:06:22.440seemingly were theoretical for in so many different areas and then returning to a place where I'm
00:06:27.340primarily surrounded by people who aren't members of my community I was going as a grad school at
00:06:31.180the time or as an adjunct at the time in Milwaukee and you know just like feeling dislocated both
00:06:36.880ways and just how that is such a hallmark of an indigenous experience in this country of having
00:06:44.040to navigate these different worlds one where there might be a lot of white people and others
00:06:47.720where there might be a lot of people in community and the sort of tensions we carry into these
00:06:51.780different spaces and also the ways that those tensions can be released um by being in the right
00:06:56.940place or a place that you need to be and so yeah it just it was just a common thread that i really
00:07:02.440felt, I don't know, that word exemplified so many of the things I was trying to process and think
00:07:07.200and that really came out in that film as well. Yeah. In film is the body for the MoMA magazine,
00:07:15.300you write, quote, being de-centered from a land and a home burdens many of us. And I'm not entirely
00:07:21.900sure where the salve can be found that soothes those aches and that hurt that punctures deep
00:07:27.480into the body of what we remember and what our ancestors experienced, end quote. And I often
00:07:35.460think we consider de-centering to be a temporary or even an individual feeling, but I'm wondering
00:07:43.420how does your work engage with an understanding of generational and collective de-centering?
00:07:49.500I guess for me, when I hear the word center or to try to center, there's something static about
00:07:53.200that or this like the sort of uh i don't know like difficulty in trying to hold still long
00:08:00.960enough to be centered in one place but rather i don't know i think it was just like a sort of
00:08:04.640like elliptical orbit around the sort of idea of it and center and sometimes you're close and
00:08:08.260sometimes you're far but there's always this momentum that moves you back and forward and
00:08:11.560that part of that journey i think is really exciting as well you know it's also scary it's
00:08:17.300also lonely it's also full of love and also full of a lot of fear you know it depends on where and
00:08:22.560how, but it's just, you know, like, I don't know, the, the idea of that isn't to maintain
00:08:27.120the sort of like, you know, perfect idea of a center, but rather ways that you can control
00:08:31.800that orbit around an idea of a center or an idea that you're searching for or trying to
00:08:38.080attain or try to understand or relate to in ways that either you've been denied or haven't
00:08:42.320really had a chance to relate to on your own terms.
00:08:46.980I mean, I thought that really answers your question, but I just think about it in sort
00:08:49.740of this push and pull sort of gravitational way where, you know, it's just, it's, it's,
00:08:55.460it's about the process of trying to understand that from all these different angles and from
00:08:58.540all these different perspectives that might be unusual, might be unaccustomed to what you're
00:09:04.240normally looking at or the way you're normally looking at the world. But I think that my work
00:09:08.400tries to do that in some sort of way, especially around these big ideas, you know, these big
00:09:12.320questions of who am I? What does it mean to be a Ho-Chunk person or Pechanga person on this land
00:09:17.120right now? And also, what does it mean to ask the questions that no one is asking you to try to1.00
00:09:22.880answer? It's just a sort of effort of triangulation. Within that, I'm wondering how do you or do people
00:09:31.340you are in community with hold on to your values and the meaning within life while also reckoning
00:09:38.440with these feelings of dislocation or feeling discentered? It feels like being an active part
00:09:44.600of the conversation of establishing those values and continuing to establish those values you know
00:09:49.740i think the sign of a healthy culture and community is one that is constantly changing and growing over
00:09:53.600time you know one that's stagnant and doesn't change it's not doesn't and that's not a sign
00:09:58.780of vibrancy you know like i mean this is a bad example but i mean like the latin language hasn't
00:10:04.060changed for 2 000 years you know and the number of people that speak that language is in the
00:10:09.160thousands you know um but it's just like what can what can one do to try to invest in a culture to
00:10:16.840feel part of the culture and determine what these values are especially with the way that technology
00:10:21.500is changing the way that the world is changing and even the ways that sovereignty is a constantly
00:10:25.700evolving conversation for native peoples in this country you know like what does it mean to
00:10:30.960mash up these two different value systems like one that is imposed by you know american hegemony and
00:10:36.680one that also comes from your family, comes from your community, and comes from people that you
00:10:41.780care about and you consider kin. How do these things mix and mash together? And I'm not quite
00:10:48.380sure what the right verb is for that, but I think it's part of the process that I think is really
00:10:52.360exciting as we're determining these things. Yeah, I really liked that response. That made
00:10:59.980a lot of sense, but also was hard to put into a box at the same time because it feels like this
00:11:08.000kind of ephemeral understanding, always moving and changing. I'm also thinking about the ways
00:11:15.280that you've spoken about film, film changing with everyone as a producer or as a quote spectator.
00:11:23.000And across your work, you also engage with the idea of what it means to be a spectator.
00:11:27.520So I'd love if we could together contemplate how as a filmmaker and as someone behind the camera, you don't necessarily have to play into the role of spectator and can instead engage in a different way.
00:11:42.600When I was in grad school, like one of the professors during a critique, he was like watching one of my films and like he brought up this idea of like, you know, who are you? Are you the observing participants or the participating observer? And what is the traditional dynamic around that? And what does it mean to be a spectator within these situations? And also, what does it mean to be a viewer or to be the person with the camera making these choices?
00:12:06.960I mean, I think a lot about that when it comes to what sort of ways can I be held accountable in the creation of the work or how can my hand be felt as the person that is making these choices with the sense that, you know, these things are choices being made.
00:12:22.060The idea of an objective viewpoint is totally false when it comes to like how I'm editing something or how the music comes in and the way that an image is affected in color correction or the angle is lit or whatever it is, you know, like these are all choices.
00:12:36.960and they're ones that are sometimes deliberate and there's sometimes they're passive and
00:12:41.300sometimes the things you don't even think about until you're watching the final cut and you're
00:12:45.400like, Oh, I didn't know what this was until I had seen it. And like, I mean, all of these things
00:12:49.600kind of come into play with, I think that idea of the spectator or where, where can one position
00:12:54.720themselves within that, you know? And what does it mean to also work in a field that traditionally
00:13:01.280has been very extractive to or from communities of color communities of the oppressed you know
00:13:07.420communities that don't have a lot of agency in this country yeah like i mean how do all these
00:13:12.180things like jive or do they not and also like how much of that tension is also generative to this
00:13:18.660conversation and these conversations that we're having around where we situate ourselves in these
00:13:23.700conversations. Yeah. And I also imagine as a filmmaker, you want to be in right relationship
00:13:32.980with who you're filming. There's bonds and intimacy and trust that are created. And
00:13:41.700whether it's in the interview itself or in the moment of filming or in the editing and the music,
00:13:47.260it's very sensitive. A certain cut can change an entire intention of what somebody's saying,
00:13:54.880even music. And so how to honor the people that are willing to be vulnerable in front of the
00:14:02.500camera. Yeah, I think about that a lot. And it seems like you are really deeply looking at how
00:14:10.600to be in that type of right relationship in filmmaking yeah i mean i feel like since the
00:14:17.340first time i started making work i have always been aware of my how uncomfortable i am around
00:14:24.800people in some ways with the camera like i'm not a very aggressive filmmaker i'm not someone that
00:14:29.220will stick the camera right in someone's face trying to like get the shot or whatever or just
00:14:33.400i don't know just like there's always something that felt like that isn't me or how i go about
00:14:38.060making things. And I did a lot of work in terms of, I don't know, doing sort of, I don't know,
00:14:43.880like short documentaries and interviews and things like that for different organizations
00:14:46.900when I was first starting out. But as I started to make my own projects that are a bit more
00:14:52.140experimental and a little bit more focused in the sort of art realm, I just started working
00:14:57.100more with people that I knew, people that are friends, people that I have a conversation with
00:15:01.460already. And even throughout the editing process, you know, like once I get a solid rough cut done
00:15:08.420or an assemblage done that I am like, this is like the pieces that I want to use. This is how
00:15:13.480I think it's going to look and feel. I'll show the people and say like, you know, what do you
00:15:16.800think? You know, are you happy with how you're being portrayed or how I'm representing you in
00:15:21.500this edit? And I don't know, I just, I, you know, like I mentioned before, in terms of like, you
00:15:27.540know objectivity you know like i mean i'm a very um subjective filmmaker when it comes to you know
00:15:33.740i want people to look good i want people to look how they want to represent themselves in the best
00:15:38.100way you know i mean these are all choices like i said and how i can pull people into that
00:15:44.340conversation of making these choices as well i think that that really has a benefit to i don't
00:15:50.480know me as a filmmaker and the project itself and whatever we're trying to do yeah and how do you
00:15:57.480think film both the act of making it and the act of watching it can encourage us to consider the
00:16:04.100roles we inhabit and the dynamics of perception and perspective at play both in film and the world
00:16:11.160at large i mean i think like even as i might work too like i mean i often think of myself as just
00:16:17.820like the first viewer of this you know like how how is this focused on a conversation that i want
00:16:23.500be having or a conversation that i don't know how to have i mean it's this film that i made a few
00:16:31.540years ago called kicking the clouds and it was it was you know involved my mom and these old tips
00:16:37.740of my grandma um on my mom's side and like in that film it really i don't know it allowed us to have
00:16:46.140some difficult conversations through the process of making the film and sometimes like that process
00:16:52.400as an excuse in order to have these conversations or as a proxy, or it's just, you know, a bit of a
00:16:57.580shielding is, is really helpful. And like, not all the, the, the films do that sort of work,
00:17:03.060or just even like the films that we watch and the films that we can see ourselves in
00:17:06.360when it comes to representation, but then also just like, what does it mean to make the films
00:17:10.620that you want to make that you don't see being made, you know, and what can that start to look
00:17:16.080like? I mean, yeah, like, you know, the relationship between the viewer and the
00:17:19.620filmmaker in the way that, you know, a person can occupy both or just like only ever be a viewer or
00:17:25.840only ever be a filmmaker, you know, not think about how these things are intertwined. I don't
00:17:31.440know. I think that that's the, that, that is room that is ripe for the exploration of a new cinema
00:17:36.840or the possibilities of a new cinema that is focused on communities that haven't necessarily
00:17:42.180seen themselves on the screen, whether the big screen or the little screen or whatever screen
00:17:47.360that's in between. And I think as those sorts of conversations develop or as those sorts of
00:17:52.440media forms develop, I think that also will breed a new sort of way of looking at how we see
00:18:00.640ourselves, especially if we're not usually present. I mean, even the last few years have
00:18:06.760been really big for indigenous filmmakers and actors and artists to get attention and to get
00:18:12.460recognition that you know hasn't necessarily been available to them and those kind of
00:18:19.580conversations have always been happening you know for the last like 100 years 200 years however long
00:18:24.360you know when it comes to the effects of these sorts of um i don't know extermination policies
00:18:30.600by the government but it's just like you know when the sort of like broader bigger sort of media
00:18:36.340landscape or groups of you know american populace like starts to look in and they act like you know
00:18:40.960it's something new that hasn't been happening, but it's been happening for a long time.
00:18:45.320It's just only now it's being looked at. Only now it's being seen. It'll continue to happen
00:18:49.620once the gaze turns away. Well, thanks for sharing all that. And I think it is really
00:18:55.720complicated and hard to land on something that feels steady. It's like even talking about this
00:19:04.540or these topics almost complicate the topics, but that's kind of what they need too. There is no
00:19:09.660easy way out. I think we're seeing that on so many levels. Maybe to get even more complex in
00:19:18.100the conversation, I wanted to take a moment to talk about your book, Parfidia. It's described
00:19:23.140as, quote, moving within the textured landscape of memory, both personal and collective, to address
00:19:29.280the founding colonial violence of the United States and its lasting impact. In a series of
00:19:34.980Cantos, the book-length poem surfaces a first-person narrative amidst the stream of history
00:19:39.840and its accounting through the voices of ancestors and kin, end quote.
00:19:45.520Oh gosh, there's so much there. How do you engage with the idea of situating ourselves within the
00:19:54.020stream of history? And how do you reckon with the ways history is still very much alive,
00:20:00.380especially within entrenched colonial perspectives oh i don't i have no idea i mean
00:20:07.500it's like is this the same book oh man wow um well i mean it's just like even with that it's like
00:20:15.840the idea of the book or just like these poems like began through just writing i mean it sounds
00:20:22.260obvious but it's just i started writing in my notes app on my phone and i would just write
00:20:28.300these you know three or four paragraphs sort of like i said cantos whatever they were and without
00:20:34.440any idea like the form or what shape they would take and it was after accumulating a number of
00:20:39.060these that i really found that it was about this bigger idea that was related to something that i
00:20:44.180was thinking about which was essentially do europeans still think about us you know um it was
00:20:51.440such like a long history the last like 400 years with europe you know with french the spanish the
00:20:57.560British, Dutch, you know, all those people. And just like, you know, do Europeans today still0.94
00:21:04.700think about this? You know, and just like, I joke about it, but it was just like, I was thinking
00:21:07.260about like, like in terms of like an ex, you know, like sometimes you wonder, oh, do they still think
00:21:10.520about me? You know? And regardless of whatever the relationship was, it's just that sort of like
00:21:15.120looking back and wondering about someone that was in your life, but is no longer, you know,
00:21:19.620someone that's a significant part of your life. And that kind of, I don't know, was how I could
00:21:25.580think about the work together and the things that I was writing about and touching on,
00:21:30.060which was, you know, very deeply personal, but also very specific to something that is
00:21:35.460reflective of an experience that I think a lot of indigenous people feel, not everyone.
00:21:40.040I mean, you know, I'm just, that's, that's part of the specificity too, is just how can
00:21:44.060I focus on my own unique experience and speak for my own sort of movement through these
00:21:49.160different landscapes of colonial history and reckoning and the presence without necessarily
00:21:54.220trying to speak for everyone or being an authority on this you know it's like through the ways that
00:21:59.480these experiences can accumulate with all these different voices and all these different people
00:22:03.320that are wondering these things you know that's like when you start to get a better picture of
00:22:07.520like how these things exist and also what needs to be done to address these things that
00:22:11.560you know you might not even notice at first and i don't know yes i think like the the book for me
00:22:18.960perfidia is just very much about that you know the title comes from this like uh javier cugat song
00:22:23.600or a performance of this, I guess the standard called perfidia. And it's just like, you know,
00:22:27.460it's a love song, you know, it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's just like, it's from the forties
00:22:31.060or fifties. And, you know, it's about the sort of betrayal. And that too, is this word that I've
00:22:36.400just became really, I don't know, not obsessed with, but I just thought about it a lot. And
00:22:41.340I was also reading through, um, uh, Ralph Waldo Emerson's letter to Martin Van Buren,
00:22:48.680you know, asking him, you know, to rethink Cherokee removal, which led to the chair,
00:22:52.720the trail of tears and he uses that word this this um using the seat and seal as an instrument
00:22:58.640of perfidy you know this idea of the trail and that just really stuck with me and just you know
00:23:03.640it's like trying to pull in these different references these things i've been thinking about
00:23:07.180you know separately but how could they all combine together into something that
00:23:11.140tries to not paint a bigger picture but i think just tries to focus on something that is a bit
00:24:34.340There's no theirs and ours or then and now.
00:24:37.260I think of my mother and father and their pain and their joy.
00:24:41.320I think of my grandmother's maternal and paternal, grandma and grandmother,
00:24:45.660and the love they gave and the love they held onto for themselves. I don't know my maternal
00:24:51.560grandfather or my paternal grandfather, and neither did my mother nor my father.
00:24:57.080Intergenerational suffering becomes a transgenerational reckoning.
00:25:02.260Yeah, and I just, I really want to hear more about this idea of transgenerational reckoning.
00:25:08.720I mean, I hadn't read that in a while or thought about that in a while, but I mean,
00:25:14.000it's just, it's very much is that specifically, you know, this, this relationship to my paternal
00:25:19.280and maternal grandfathers, you know, or the lack of the relationship, you know, I think about that
00:25:23.500a lot. And it's like what this like new sort of body of work is also touching on. And this new
00:25:28.960writing that I'm doing right now is touching on more specifically when it comes to that,
00:25:32.880you know, like, what does it mean for my mother and father, both to have not known their fathers,
00:25:37.020you know, like what is implied and inferred in that relationship or lack of a relationship?
00:25:41.100and how does that affect me today and also how am I responsible for not in a not in a bad way but
00:25:48.600like just responsible for for carrying that you know and carrying that through the relationship
00:25:53.760that I had with my father and the relationship that I have with my mother and what sort of
00:25:59.000relationships do I want to foster that is reflective of the things that I've learned
00:26:02.780through those experiences and also how can I grow and change and reflect on who I am and who I want
00:26:08.920to be tomorrow in a very immediate way. I mean, I don't often think about the future
00:26:13.560because it gets so big and so daunting and so unknown. But I think about tomorrow because
00:26:20.220that's the thing that gives me anxiety and hope. And how can the things that I'm trying to figure
00:26:31.760out, how can I make it easier for future generations, for, I don't know, children in
00:26:38.520the future for my nieces, for my nephews, for my students. Another thing that comes to mind is
00:26:43.560when I was first learning Chinook, my teacher, he told me there's no thinking and no suffering
00:26:47.860in this. If you see a student thinking and suffering, you got to help them out. You don't
00:26:54.560want them to flounder. You don't want them to be sitting there searching for a word and you're
00:26:59.340just standing with your arms crossed saying, nope, nope, you better get it. You better get it.
00:27:03.520Because that's not helping them. That's just like making this learning process that much more
00:27:07.860difficult and you also you know as you're learning the language and figuring out what the lessons are
00:27:14.400it's going to be hard for you but it's gonna be easier for your students and that's the thing you
00:27:19.140know it's just like even with like teaching film like i don't want my students to go through the
00:27:23.320same things that i went through to become a filmmaker you know because it's a whole lifetime
00:27:27.680of experiences you know they're gonna have their own journey and it's just like whatever i can do
00:27:31.400to make it easier for them to then scaffold to then think about what their how their own lives
00:27:37.080reflect their own artistic practices like they can be all that much better for it you know and
00:27:43.140i think there's something too that comes with intergenerational trauma or even intergenerational
00:27:46.940violence where it's just like there's this sort of idea that you know you have to suffer as much
00:27:53.300as i did you have to suffer as much as your parents did or your grandparents did and that
00:27:58.340also gets tied up into this idea of authenticity you know like if we're not suffering in the same
00:28:02.960way, then are we real? And I don't know. I was just like, are we related to each other in that
00:28:08.980same sort of way? And I don't think so. And I think that's part of that sort of transgenerational
00:28:14.100reckoning is unlearning these sorts of ways of disseminating knowledge and feelings and emotion
00:28:22.140that haven't worked for us or are passing along the things that we really don't want to be passing
00:28:27.360along and how can we become more intentional about being specific with that like what do
00:28:33.280we want to pass on what do we want to survive and what can we let go wow that really hit hard for me
00:28:40.780and i'm just thinking about authenticity and suffering that that feels extremely relevant
00:28:49.020and something that i i do not in any way have answers for or even even feel like i can grasp
00:28:56.300bit fully, but I can sense it in the longing and the searching of today's youth, even in myself
00:29:03.820for sure. When there's been so much suffering and pain from whether it's our human ancestors
00:29:11.260or our more than human ancestors or our kin or familial relations, human and otherwise, it's like
00:29:20.480how can we be real and authentic and compassionate without almost I don't know if it's about living
00:29:28.920that suffering I mean we can't live what other people have lived I think yeah it's just there's
00:29:35.580so many like issues surrounding authenticity as well that it's just it's just it's always at top
00:29:39.780of mind you know like whether it's you know do people want to be native do they not want to be
00:29:45.300native are they pretending to be native like all these different sort of things like swirl around
00:29:49.860as well you know and but then like what are the things that are deeper or that again more ineffable
00:29:56.840or intractable or whatever sort of word you want to use to describe it that I don't know is again
00:30:04.380about triangulation I suppose you know as we're all searching for like who we are and how we relate
00:30:08.520to the world that we live in but also the world that we come from or the worlds that we come from
00:30:13.620Right. And then that's another layer is like the world's a plural. And there's all these different stories that have lived through us, through our ancestors colliding, sometimes in very odd and uncomfortable ways.
00:30:30.600And so, yeah, the reckoning of that is something I really see in people. I'm really in myself, but also witnessing so many of us try to make sense of our histories.
00:38:52.200I mean, it's like, I mean, even like the last like, you know, four or five months have been
00:38:58.860rough when it comes to thinking about like what art can do, you know? And it's just like, you
00:39:05.160know, what is the, I guess it's like, what is the time and place for each of these things, you know?
00:39:10.380And, you know, in some ways it can be a distraction from the realities of the world or in other ways
00:39:16.620it can, you know, point you towards things that you're hopefully trying to like bury your head
00:39:21.080in the sand about you know whatever that is and i think it's just that idea of confrontation
00:39:25.900like confrontation and escape or confrontation and reverie when it comes to i don't know for each
00:39:32.180each viewer or person looking at these things to you know figure out what is the art that they need
00:39:38.460you know what's what's the medicine what's the antidote what's the thing that will you know yeah
00:39:42.540provide that salve that you know offers offers an experience or offers like a way of reframing
00:39:49.340the conditions that you're in, if that's what you need.
00:39:54.040Yeah, I get it. I'm definitely in that question, whether it's art or media or education. It's like,
00:40:02.420what do we need at this point to shift or grow or heal? And of course, it's different. There isn't
00:40:11.800one silver bullet solution or there is no real answer to it, but I've definitely been questioning
00:40:18.980a lot for myself in, I guess, just creation in general. How is creation serving?
00:40:28.920So maybe talking a bit about art and the body and just embodiment in film is the body for the
00:40:37.280magazine, you write, quote, Soma is the body and what we have apart from our soul and our
00:40:43.200vagaries. I hold a camera and I hold a pen and I type on this keyboard thinking of mind pictures
00:40:49.860and stories I don't have the words for. Film is the body and photographs are the body and words
00:40:55.700are the body in English, in Ho-Chunk, in Chunuk, on cellulode or in pixels or on paper. And I hope
00:41:03.700they mean everything I can make them mean. And I love that. And you continue, the body is still
00:41:08.700the body and it needs these other elements and factors to give its shape and its form and its
00:41:13.680memory meaning. I feel myself in my body every day and I look to my chosen elders to guide me
00:41:19.740in understanding as a child does. For we're all children learning and trying to become more than
00:41:25.320what our appearances are prescribed to us by the histories in place." As I was reading that,
00:41:33.060trying to understand how you center embodiment in your own creation process. But then for those
00:41:40.960who are experiencing your films, your art, how do you imagine them embodying what they are
00:41:47.680experiencing through your work? I think, I mean, even just like, yeah,
00:41:51.880film being a time-based medium, you know, it's just, I mean, I talk about this film a lot,
00:42:01.280But one of my favorite at all time was watching this James Benning film called Farroki in an empty cinema, except for my advisor, just sitting in opposite ends of the cinema, like watching this film on a Sunday afternoon.
00:42:16.100And it's like a 90 minute film of just like a sky with clouds, just like one take, you know, and it's just barely any sound.
00:42:25.320And it's just, you're watching that for like an hour and a half, you know, and it's just, it's one of my favorite cinema.
00:42:31.280experiences because I don't know it's just like there's something about being aware of of my body
00:42:37.480in the cinema you know of my feet up on the chair leaning back you know and just kind of like dozing
00:42:42.600off and daydreaming every now and then um kind of just like watching the clouds and it's just that
00:42:47.560sort of space to think about your presence in the cinema as you're watching something that
00:42:52.620I don't know like it changed me and I in and how I think about film and like what it does where it
00:42:59.360It isn't just the time that you spend watching something, but it's the time that your body
00:43:03.480is in the process of watching it, you know?
00:43:06.460Are you sitting cross-legged, you know, watching something on your phone, you know, or you're
00:43:10.080laying in bed, are you on the couch, you with friends, with a loved one, whoever it
00:43:13.040is, you know, there's something to that experience that is very much a part of like the thing
00:43:18.580that you're watching and what that thing makes you feel, you know?
00:43:23.520Like, you know, one of my favorite directors of Pitch Upon, where Seth the Cool says that,
00:43:27.420you know he wants audiences to fall asleep during his movies you know it's a sign of trust in the
00:43:31.780filmmaker you know and i think i've fallen asleep in a few movies here and there and it's just like
00:43:36.660you know that sort of trust and that sort of invitation to then internalize the film in a
00:43:40.100different way that i think is really fascinating you know i'm finding people fall asleep during my
00:43:44.800movies too you know that's great but it's just also like what the films themselves become you
00:43:51.720know through the creation of them and through the making of them you know i'll spend like you know
00:43:55.920months working on something and just you know watch edit after edit after edit and just like
00:44:00.600go through so many different iterations just like fine tuning it and tweaking this and that and
00:44:05.160things that maybe no one'll notice but i'll notice you know and it's it's when i i know when i'm done
00:44:10.580when i can't think of anything else to do and then it's just on to the next project you know
00:44:16.440and but that's that film is still a container of all those experiences and all those ways that i
00:44:21.920was involved with, you know, that film. And I remember like where I was when I was editing
00:44:26.080this section here or that section there, what I was thinking, you know, or all these different
00:44:30.640things. And the same thing too, with an audience that is experiencing these things or watching
00:44:35.520them, you know, like, what do they bring into it? You know, how are they feeling that day?
00:44:40.160You know, are they sad, mad, glad, whatever, you know, and how does that affect how they
00:44:45.700think about it? You know, I don't know. I think like all of those things kind of go
00:44:50.040into that sort of idea of embodiment when it comes into the making of these films and the
00:44:54.560viewing of them and the filming. Yeah, all of it. I really liked you describing
00:45:00.300the body in the cinema, just in the chair, feet up, the sound, the darkness. That really
00:45:09.340explains so much to me. Another thing I wanted to ask about on the theme of art is the role
00:45:17.060of abstraction. And I'm wondering, how does abstraction play into your art and how might
00:45:25.740it work to actually get us closer to feeling connected? I think one of the first things that
00:45:32.060I did in a film to start to play with abstraction was to turn an image upside down, one upside down
00:45:38.200and one below in this film. And for me, that was doing something very specific when it came to
00:45:43.280expressing this relationship to my dad who was just subject to the film and myself and these
00:45:49.240two different homelands as a very you know it's like very intentional but you know an audience
00:45:53.640doesn't know that you know an audience doesn't know why i did that um my mom does you know like
00:45:59.140um someone that knows those locations knows what i'm up to but i'm not painting the picture of like
00:46:05.560you know i'm not writing the the paragraph explaining like you know what it is i actually
00:46:09.480did write an essay about that film actually. So, I did explain that a little bit. But the point
00:46:14.400being that I do these gestures and I do these moves with intention and with purpose, but
00:46:19.700a larger audience doesn't know what I'm referencing or what it's about. But I want them to know that
00:46:24.560there's something there that's intentional. And so, there's an abstraction. There's something
00:46:28.960that is manipulated in terms of the image or the soundscape or whatever it is. And the thing that
00:46:33.920I want with that is that the intention to be felt, even if the purpose isn't known.
00:46:39.100That makes sense. You know, because like then it, like ideally it allows someone into the effort or
00:46:47.940into the, the, the intention behind it without knowing what it is and allows them to bring their
00:46:53.120own experience or their own relationship or the things that they want to see within that,
00:46:57.640you know, and like in some ways it's a container, it's a vessel in order for these things and the
00:47:01.860experiences to be laid out and to be shared or to, you know, be viewed, you know, if not,
00:47:07.740you know, for myself or for some other. I think of even like these abstraction sort of like moves
00:47:13.320or gestures is just like one in a toolbox of like tactics to employ and like, you know,
00:47:19.600this formal strategy is in a film, you know, and like, what is the emotional resonance? And if the
00:47:24.600resonance is there, then is it doing its job, you know, or does it fall flat, you know, or does it
00:47:30.760just feel like it's done in vain you know or for because it looks cool or something you know and
00:47:37.780i don't know i think there's a certain sort of like um uh release that i think i try to come
00:47:44.500to terms with which each of these things or each of these films or um different ways that i employ
00:47:48.760abstraction in the works is does this make sense you know and like i'll obsess over you know and
00:47:55.160edit and just like watch it and think about it and step away from it and wonder is this done with
00:48:02.280enough purpose or with intention or will an audience know what I'm up to you know does it
00:48:08.180look dumb you know like all of those things so I don't know I guess it's something that I think
00:48:12.040about a lot when it comes to how it's landing or or if it doesn't yeah I get that and I'm wondering0.91
00:48:21.840what what do you have lined up for the future what are you what themes are you focusing on or
00:48:27.960what can you share for us about your art at this moment and what you're dreaming into
00:48:33.240i'm in the middle of post-production right now in my next feature length film called powwow people
00:48:39.060me and my crew we organized a powwow in seattle at the daybreak star cultural center this past
00:48:45.020august and hosted a power for three days and filmed it and um the idea being to make a film
00:48:50.940out of out of that you know might be a bit more of a straightforward type film with not as many
00:48:55.140abstraction or abstractions in it um but in the middle of that right now and i have an exhibition
00:49:00.120coming up at broadway gallery in tribeca in june so that'll include a new video installation as
00:49:08.080well as 11 new photograph painting flat work pieces and i'm also working on writing a script
00:49:17.940with a good friend of mine, um, set in coastal Oregon. We're hoping to start shooting that in
00:49:23.380the next few years. And I'm currently working on a more experimental documentary type film
00:49:30.200about country music with another good friend of mine. I'd love to, I don't know if you could
00:49:34.560share anything more about the country music. I mean, it begins with the love of something,
00:49:39.580you know? And like, I mean, yeah, I love country music and I should first start with rodeos.
00:49:45.100like my dad rode rodeo before i was born but he was like he was gored by a bull and um i just
00:49:50.840remember like that always affecting and how he walked his for the rest of his life and my friend
00:49:55.760and i were talking about that and we're going to go to try to go see one in new jersey and like
00:49:59.220i'll bring a camera i'll bring a bolex you know and shoot something film that never happened but
00:50:03.780the idea started to percolate a little bit more about this film and like about you know
00:50:08.140ideas of the country and then focus on country music and yeah like there's this musician that
00:50:14.480i really love and we just went and talked to him this past weekend in arkansas and it was just
00:50:20.140really great you know getting his perspective as a musician you know when it comes to indigenous
00:50:25.200issues when it comes to the land when it comes to class and it comes to race and it's just like how
00:50:29.800much the container um country music is when it comes to these things and how how reflective it
00:50:35.660is and like how it's not you know this sort of like one single you know um sort of like thing
00:50:40.880like garth brooks or something you know there's a lot more nuance and a lot more history when it
00:50:44.280comes to culture, language, landscape.