00:00:00.000Hello, and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today I'm speaking with
00:00:08.560woman stands a shining Pat McCabe. And that what the world needed is the world needed my
00:00:14.640forgiveness today over those matters versus 500 years ago. We needed it more today. That's what
00:00:23.720Spirit told me. Because when I could open up my heart of forgiveness, which bathes creation in
00:00:30.420light, I forego revenge. I even forego neutrality, and I go all the way to forgiveness.
00:00:39.040Woman Stands Shining, Pat McCabe, is a Diné grandmother, activist, artist, and international
00:00:46.880speaker. Her primary work is proposing to the five fingered ones that paradigm is a choice,
00:00:53.720and pointing to indigenous cultures as examples that we have evidence that human beings can
00:00:59.300participate in paradigms in which we can become beings capable of causing all life to thrive.
00:01:08.600Well, Pat, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I've been following your work
00:01:14.920for quite a while, and it's a real honor to be sharing some time with you today.
00:01:20.580and so I'd like to just begin by asking you if you desire to introduce yourself
00:01:27.280in any way that you would like to open this. Sure, thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
00:01:34.120Yeah, so I'll just say greetings to all who come upon this encounter and I'll say yate,
00:01:42.020So I come from Diné, Diné Nation, and my daughter says people know us incorrectly as Navajo.
00:02:01.460So I'm reading you in our traditional way by telling you my clans.
00:02:05.860And I was also adopted into the Lakota spiritual way of life.
00:02:12.020So I've been on that road and that's been such a blessing and I would say the main informing spiritual element in my world for the last 28 years or so.
00:02:23.000And I'm coming to you today from beautiful northern New Mexico, Taos, my house in Taos up here in the land of the Red Willow people, Taos Pueblo.
00:02:33.540So just very happy to find myself here with you today.
00:02:37.160thank you so much for grounding us in this moment and where you are and
00:02:46.420i've heard you speak about how this moment in time biologically speaking the plan on earth
00:02:56.760is very much to continue to live and i'd just like to start here because i think for so many
00:03:03.580of us who are in movements for environmental justice or climate justice, we find ourselves
00:03:10.100entangled in narratives that focus on extinction, loss, a lack of time, and just a tremendous amount
00:03:17.420of misanthropy. But looking at the world around us shows us that our more than human kin are giving
00:03:25.060birth all of the time. They're not ceasing their lineage of their own volition. So I wonder if you
00:03:32.140could clarify the inherent truth that life wants to exist it is this current paradigm that does not
00:03:39.240well i had the deep honor of having a conversation with joanna macy recently
00:03:44.480and um we were talking about um i guess a film that's coming out um that's really supposed to
00:03:55.740be very hard hitting with the with the facts about climate change and anyway she some of her work was
00:04:03.720was being included and she was just feeling tender about it and so I think I've said this in in
00:04:10.460different ways at different times but sort of the way it kind of is coming out for me at the moment
00:04:14.800is to say that you know I often say that modern world paradigm is very intellectual intellectually
00:04:23.380driven i mean we're we're very very much taught to rely almost exclusively on intellect and so
00:04:31.980i say you know what the intellect you know we we do need intellect i'm not trying to propose that
00:04:37.860there's no no use for intellect but i think we're way over reliant on it and what i say is that the
00:04:43.960intellect is what the intellect is especially good at is making the airtight case for something or
00:04:50.620against something um i mean if you if you set two people down and say give them any kind of
00:04:56.920inspiration to say you know even though you've never thought about this before i want you to
00:05:01.260take this position and you over here you take the opposite position boy they could probably go at it
00:05:05.480all day and all night you know because that's what the intellect loves to do and knows how to do
00:05:10.480and so if we're only being centered as a human uh being only an intellect then you know we we
00:05:21.700make the airtight case for things and right now um there's uh a huge faction of us that wants to
00:05:28.960make the airtight case for doom and i know that the the impulse for such films as as uh whatever
00:05:36.020the one was that's coming out i don't i don't know there's probably several coming out you know
00:05:40.100the the idea is that if we can impress deeply upon the people enough that you know doom is
00:05:47.880certain unless unless we do x y and z you know it's supposed it's supposed to be an inspiration
00:05:53.620of sorts and i it's not that i disagree with that completely but my own experience and i'm
00:06:01.940going to say that as an indigenous woman as a woman who you know along my journey i started out
00:06:09.220uh being raised to to be very intellect centered you know the plan was for me to go
00:06:17.940to ivy league schools and to to hopefully have some fame and fortune in that way before this
00:06:26.260life was over but i went my heart and my spirit were not going to go along with that plan i was
00:06:33.120not even though I was a great student uh let the record show um I uh my heart and my spirit were
00:06:41.480not up to that that life and that way of looking at life and I was suffering very greatly and so
00:06:48.500I started out in that in that realm and when I was about 27 28 years old I got called into my very
00:06:56.120first indigenous ceremony it was kind of a maybe a late start for for me some might say but um you
00:07:03.980know my parents and my grandparents were taken into the dutch christian reform missionary boarding
00:07:08.180schools and so in those places they were not allowed to speak our language or practice any of
00:07:13.680our traditions or culture um and so by the time i came along that was that was very absent in my
00:07:20.180immediate family and um so it's only been a little bit later in life that i've come back to this
00:07:26.120called my great homecoming. And I say that that's my greatest gift to the world is describing that
00:07:32.120journey, because I really do feel like humanity is on that exact, like that exact same journey
00:07:37.580of a return to earth and a return to, well, maybe not a return, but an inclusion of a knowing of
00:07:46.460how to be human that is beyond this modern world paradigm, outside of this modern world paradigm.
00:07:52.480Indigenous peoples have been, you know, really putting forth their own paradigm, their own worldview, their own value system against all the forces of the modern world paradigm.0.84
00:08:07.100But, you know, they're seeking something outside of modern world paradigm. And I feel like all of this intensive search on the part of social justice folks and environmentalists and all, they're looking for something outside of this current paradigm as well.
00:08:23.420So in that we are aligned. But I guess what I want to say is that I have found opening up what I'll call a broad spectrum of ways of knowing that all of my spiritual practice has afforded me and allowed me to experience.
00:08:41.180and what i have come to know and what my elders have told me is that the intellect is the least
00:08:47.560reliable way of knowing anything you know and and i and i guess i'll add here right away that
00:08:53.420you know the proof is in the pudding so to speak in that you know i say if sustainability is the
00:09:00.020is the highest and most sought after technology on the planet who should we be talking to
00:09:04.760we should be talking to those peoples who've known how to live in one place over an extended
00:09:09.020period of time say a thousand years or five thousand years or ten thousand years or twenty
00:09:13.160thousand years in relative health harmony and happiness and we call these people indigenous
00:09:18.760peoples so their science is sound their their social technologies are sound this whole continent
00:09:27.480was filled with thousands of different cultures with unintelligible languages different cosmologies
00:09:33.560different understanding of the divine so to speak and um and yet they co-existed they co-existed
00:09:42.600here kind of a remarkable way certainly relative to what our social technologies are able to give
00:09:49.460us in modern world paradigm so you know what i say about it is that our intellect alone way
00:09:57.600is it has never been the way to have sustainability you know is it an accident that all these peoples
00:10:05.780who have such a broad spectrum of ways of knowing their way of knowing includes ceremony their way
00:10:12.140of knowing includes the song and the dance their way of knowing includes um seeking vision and
00:10:20.260seeking input from the larger community the larger community of life and also the spiritual community
00:10:25.340you know it was it was through opening all of those modalities that a human being has and and
00:10:31.340i'm going to say every human being has them the question is have they been cultivated have they
00:10:35.920been have they been pointed out to us but indigenous peoples you know i'm going to say
00:10:40.860that having a broad spectrum of ways of knowing and sustainability go hand in hand for a human being
00:10:46.320so it's not that i discount or dismiss the science entirely i'm just saying that that i don't believe
00:10:54.040that that can be the whole story and part of the way i say that is uh you know try having a romance
00:10:59.420with intellect only and see how far you get and see how enjoyable it is and that's really kind
00:11:06.340of what we're what we've been brought into in modern world paradigm is proposing that you know
00:11:11.960that we can have this incredible deep powerful relationship with this exquisite earth and all
00:11:18.580these exquisite beings that surround us here uh the you know beyond human and that we are to do
00:11:26.340this without the romance that we're to do this with intellect only and um i suspect that there
00:11:32.440are many other possibilities if we were to open up together in exploring what it would mean to have
00:11:43.540to expand our spectrum of ways of knowing at this time together.
00:11:49.060And so I'm going to stand for what the people stand for,
00:11:55.180the people, the nations that I've been brought into culturally,
00:11:59.360born into or called for, you know, and that's what we always say.
00:12:04.520We do this so that the people can live.
00:12:06.340The reason I'm speaking with you here on this interview is I do this so that
00:12:09.880the people can live. We want to live with all of our relations.
00:12:13.540in a good way and so that's what we say with all of our endeavors placing life at the center
00:12:20.500ideally and so I think we are still that that's something that we're finding in common
00:12:27.120is we we do want to live and we do want to live with all our relations in a good way no matter
00:12:33.920what culture or background we come from and so perhaps now we're coming to a convergence
00:12:39.440of understanding that was not possible until now
00:12:43.200thank you so much pat that was really comforting to hear and i do see so many humans in the
00:12:57.440sustainability movement it feels kind of like running around in a cage and i can see people
00:13:06.740wanting so badly to intellectually find the answer, so to speak. But we feel so far from it
00:13:16.280in those spaces. Even with all the ideas and the analyses, it just feels like we're going to be
00:13:26.760running around in a circle forever under this thought process. And, you know, in talking about
00:13:34.380paradigms as choices we get to make, I've heard you raise the question of who would we be in
00:13:41.060another paradigm? And this has landed very deeply in me as I also think about the many people who
00:13:48.680are lost and suffering in this current paradigm, those who are deeply grappling with addiction,
00:13:55.840mental illness, and loneliness. And I wonder who they would get to be. And so your question is so
00:14:03.420powerful because it encourages us to get excited about choosing a different paradigm, while also
00:14:09.660extending grace to those who are deeply misfitted for this current one. So how do you see a thriving
00:14:17.380life paradigm reinstilling the honor of being a human?
00:14:25.020Well, I think that's a gigantic proposition.
00:14:33.420And I think, I'm pretty sure I'm the one who proposed it in just those words.
00:14:40.380But I guess, first of all, what I'll say is, you know, for myself, where I start getting very battered by this time is when I start trying to take the whole thing on myself.
00:14:57.440when I start wanting to attend to all the environmental issues and all the issues of
00:15:05.620mental health issues and anguish of the young people and all the economics and even what's
00:15:13.320happening with the water in my own home here in Taos, New Mexico. And when I start getting
00:15:19.080into that mode that wants to attend to all of it, I get beat up right away and I get
00:15:26.440diminished. And so I want to say that I have this image of me before I was born, you know,
00:15:38.520in the spirit world. And I'm like tugging on spirit sleeve and saying, put me in coach,
00:15:43.620put me in. I know I could do it. I know I could do something here. Just put me in. I want to go
00:15:51.220in you know and spirit finally saying all right here you go you get to go in and um so so one I
00:15:58.040you know as I have that image for myself I have it for everybody I meet and I think wow just think
00:16:03.860about uh choosing to come in right now choosing to come and walk this earth right now as human
00:16:10.000being you know and I and I say this to the young people that I that I encounter as I say man I just
00:16:16.080have so much respect for you right off the bat, just that you're here, that you're coming in right
00:16:22.560now. And I have total faith, as I do for myself, that I came here for a purpose. There's something
00:16:30.400for me to do here. And perhaps it's only that only I can do, or perhaps I am a part of some
00:16:38.580kind of constellation that is destined to come together. Lately, it's been feeling like that.
00:16:44.060and i offer my peace and and we are greater than the sum of our parts and so i i have to stay
00:16:52.280focused that way in what really deeply and what is mine to do otherwise i i do get completely run
00:17:00.460over and battered by by by the situation so so what i am equipped to do here is to like i said
00:17:09.580you know, is to use this incredible privilege. I mean, my people's history is harrowing.
00:17:17.380You know, the United States government ordered every male member of my people to turn themselves
00:17:22.960in or be captured or murdered in the mid-1800s. And we barely survived that. We were walked
00:17:32.360hundreds of miles to a concentration camp in the southern part of the state. So the fact that I am
00:17:38.820here, and that I was put into East Coast boarding school, and I lived on Stanford campus when my
00:17:47.900father was getting his PhD there, you know, I thought a lot about how meticulous spirit has
00:17:54.360been with my education. And my education has had very little to do with the schools I was a part
00:18:00.820of, actually. I mean, it gives me the mannerisms and the vocabulary and the language to be able
00:18:08.140to be heard by those who are also embedded in those institutions and were given that as their
00:18:18.760platform or being their education. But I'm going to argue for every single one of us
00:18:24.320that there has been like the real school running along side by side with that. And that has to do
00:18:31.120with all of the experiences, the families we were born into, the people, the ethnicities we were
00:18:37.360born into the gender we were born into um all of that you know because as I look at my own world
00:18:44.520I just see that I have been meticulously meticulously prepared for the role I am to play
00:18:51.640and a large part of that role is doing exactly what I'm doing right here right now which is
00:18:56.720is is describing my journey from being a modern world paradigm human to a human that is
00:19:05.000more or less outside of that at this point and observing i'm observing and i'm describing that
00:19:11.960journey so um i don't know that i can say what the whole picture would be like of the thriving
00:19:20.040life paradigm i feel like there have been groups of humans who have been operating from an ethic
00:19:30.280you know this is this is the way i've been thinking about it lately that you know when i
00:19:36.200look at the sacred hoop of life so maybe some people have seen the medicine wheel this this
00:19:41.060circle and we say that every single member of all living things gets to have a seat on that hoop
00:19:49.300including human beings we're not the whole hoop we get to have a seat on the hoop
00:19:53.700and um and that every every single member is really called on to uphold its part of that
00:20:02.580sacred hoop of life and when any member does not uphold that part then the integrity of the hoop
00:20:08.100begins to fail and i and i do believe that's what we're seeing i do believe that earth is suffering
00:20:13.640because humanity has forgotten to place life at the center of every single one of its endeavors
00:20:20.420other things have come before that and we are experiencing the consequences of that
00:20:25.620which is why i'm sure you know my people are very very clear and say with every endeavor we do this
00:20:33.920so the people can live so that we never lose sight of what's actually the plan around here
00:20:38.900the plan on earth is life clearly everything is doing one thing it's making more life making
00:20:44.160more life she's always trying to find the way to push life up and out and so the amazing thing
00:20:51.940about this about this circle of life well there's so many amazing things about it but the one that
00:20:57.160I've been thinking about lately is that every single other member apart from humanity every
00:21:04.140single other member on that hoop knows you know just by their very existence just by their very
00:21:10.800being their way of being the fruit of their seed um that every generation going back as far as you
00:21:19.460want to go and forward i think as far as we want to go to every single being their the way they
00:21:27.660live their life contributes to supports upholds every other member on that sacred group of life
00:21:35.400I mean, that's incredible. We look at that prospect as a human being right now, and it's
00:21:41.740completely overwhelming and baffling to us. How would we do such a thing, we ask ourselves.
00:21:47.580But I want to point out that we have all these other beautiful relatives. I say elders. The
00:21:55.680trees, the stones, the waters, the birds. I had a pair of hawks doing their mating
00:22:00.800ritual right over my head a couple days ago outside of my house it was just astonishing
00:22:06.540but just to think that every single one of them the way they live supports every other form of
00:22:12.620life and so I have to believe that we also have that capacity I don't believe we could be placed
00:22:20.240here I don't believe we could be given a seat on that sacred hoop of life if we didn't have that
00:22:25.820ability somehow somewhere some way so right now as much as you know you're saying we want to know
00:22:31.800of course we want to know that's that's the intellect's way right it's not happy if it can't
00:22:35.820know and if it can't really know it starts to make something up but but we we don't know right now
00:22:41.740and and that's an uncomfortable place but what i have learned is that when we can fall in front of
00:22:51.140that great mystery door with true humility with true willingness with true love for this life
00:23:00.140and for all the life around us for the next generation's lives you know because that is a
00:23:05.140place that we find in our ceremonies when we are able to meet that place with true humility and
00:23:10.720willingness astonishing vistas open when that door swings open and shows us things that we
00:23:18.800never could have conceived of before. So perhaps it's actually a necessary place for us to be
00:23:25.060to encounter and to really be confronted deeply by that mystery at this time.
00:24:11.420When I came in the door, you saw me looking for a mirror
00:24:25.620You brought it to my lips, gave me a little sip
00:24:31.620I'd like to move into a conversation0.97
00:24:39.240to look at how gender behaves in this paradigm, and I've heard you acknowledge that this is a
00:24:46.160very difficult conversation to have right now, but it's also desperately needed. And so often
00:24:52.580when we think, you know, or when we talk about gender, we talk about the harm that the binary
00:24:57.440does, with many pointing out how the gender binary itself is a colonial construct. So I'm curious to
00:25:05.120enter into this topic with you in a way that holds the necessity of the non-binary, while also
00:25:11.100exploring how gender behaves differently in different paradigms, and how gender has been
00:25:17.100held in very sacred ways as well. So how can we have gendered counterparts without the oppressive
00:25:24.840nature of a binary? So in this power over paradigm, in which might makes right,1.00
00:25:32.620men are going to dominate which is what i see because it's really about brute force it's really
00:25:39.420about you know overcoming another and so this is to me why men are dominant in this paradigm
00:25:48.800and have been dominant in in this on the earth for some time now by and large and so we associate
00:25:57.660that power and the way it is used, that overcoming, that overpowering of others with
00:26:06.560masculinity. And there is truth in that. There's no question about that. But again, as you say,
00:26:14.100I ask myself, who would men be if they were not in a paradigm that required of them to overcome
00:26:23.920others in order to have what they need and in order to be that provider for the life bringers
00:26:29.740the children and the elders who who would they be then and and so then I feel like I also have to ask
00:26:37.340so those who appear female not identify as female they are then also held in a certain position
00:26:47.180within that paradigm. And for me, I feel like it's very hard for us to take a look at gender
00:26:54.360without fully acknowledging the extent of the paradigm, that power over way, and how anybody,
00:27:04.440whatever gender, whatever race, you know, is going to behave when you have people that are going to0.71
00:27:09.620overpower you and make it next to impossible for you to get what you need to live.0.99
00:27:15.380the same dynamics are going to arise and they are arising we're seeing it arising
00:27:20.260politically we're seeing it arise racially we're seeing it arise in gender you know that that's
00:27:28.520been going on for for however you know forever for not forever but for a very long time thousands0.96
00:27:33.040of years and so so I think that that's the first place that I always want to start in having any
00:27:40.140conversation about gender is how can we really know so i will agree that that the current gender
00:27:50.560constructs are a human construct well they're they're a product of this paradigm and so i don't
00:27:59.780think i can even really know who i am as female outside of that paradigm and that's what you know
00:28:07.440I think that's what you're quoting from me is that the spirit said to me, you think you know what masculine is, but you don't. And you think you know what feminine is, but you don't. All you know is how those two energetics behave in a power over paradigm.
00:28:19.880But if you were to plug them into a different paradigm, they would behave in a completely different way. So I notice that when I am engaged in my cultural, spiritual practices, gender is held in very particular ways.
00:28:39.180And I will say that the patriarchal way, the power over paradigm way, in which men are dominant, has definitely infiltrated into Indigenous culture.
00:28:54.300So it's not that there's perfection going on there.
00:28:57.080But I do notice and I can feel how the ceremonies call upon gender in very different ways than we're accustomed to in modern world paradigm.
00:29:06.820And so I can just say for myself, as someone who identifies as female and woman, and who also menstruates, who also menstruated, I should say, I don't menstruate anymore.
00:29:19.960There was a very particular spiritual capacity that I had that was based upon my biology.
00:29:26.620and there i don't know how there can be a a human construct around that capacity
00:29:37.620that um in other words i feel like that was as natural of a female being as i've ever known how
00:29:46.920to be was to be going into the practice of of dismantling you know acknowledging that i'm
00:29:54.200dismantling the holy altar of life once a month and that I have the opportunity to offer that
00:29:59.460gift to the mother earth and that when I do that she responds she responds to me so deeply and
00:30:08.300actually blesses me in very particular ways as the female of our kind and and also gives me
00:30:17.460vision and instruction about how to be on this earth at this time and so based on that very
00:30:24.800personal experience i extrapolate quite a bit and i ask myself so so if that is what my biology
00:30:33.820can afford me to contribute you know i going back to what we were talking about earlier i've had it
00:30:40.620with genius i've had it with brilliant ideas i want to i want to be led i want to be called
00:30:49.920by life itself to action because i don't think we know what we're doing all we can keep doing
00:30:56.180is operating out of the same you know the same modern world paradigm it's very hard for us to0.73
00:31:02.860to know even even as an indigenous person with a full-on living example of how
00:31:09.160one could be a human being in a completely different way it's still really difficult
00:31:14.160and then many people don't have that privilege don't have that opportunity
00:31:18.780to participate in a paradigm other than the modern world paradigm so it's it's quite it's
00:31:25.580quite challenging but but I'll say that you know for me to be able to to hear in that way
00:31:32.500to be able to receive instruction is so profound and so that makes me ask myself then
00:31:38.880so what what do all the other genders hold for us what do what is the whole spectrum of gender
00:31:47.400hold for us the biology of the two-spirit the biology of of the men and the masculine
00:31:54.980um i think that there is a huge amount of resource for understanding how to be human
00:32:05.740in such a way that we can cause all of their life to thrive by being able to instead of
00:32:13.840seeing gender only through this through the eyes of this terrible terrible power play going on
00:32:21.200to begin to ask you know how what is my perfect design for thriving life
00:32:28.180that I am meant to fulfill here? And how does my gender, whatever gender I'm claiming,
00:32:35.440how does that afford me that possibility to do that?
00:32:42.000Thank you, Pat, for going there with us. And yeah, I'm thinking in terms of the wounds of
00:32:52.080gender in this paradigm, I think about the shame and trauma that colonization has inflicted
00:32:59.400upon men both here and in Europe, and how that trauma in Europe begets what unfolds here in0.63
00:33:08.040indigenous communities. And I know that this is a topic that doesn't always land softly, because
00:33:15.340under this paradigm, it can be so much to ask women and non-binary folks to step into this
00:33:24.200approach of understanding men's participation in violence and abuse, or their silence in
00:33:30.560movements for safety and physical return of those who have gone missing or been harmed by men.
00:33:37.860But as difficult as it is, it's worthy of noting the cycle of trauma that arises and
00:33:45.080I know that this is a question that perhaps really needs to be addressed to the men in our lives.
00:33:51.920But as someone who has traced what the witch hunts of Europe set in motion, I wonder if I
00:33:58.220could ask you about the importance of factoring this part of the story in terms of healing the
00:34:05.020masculine and feminine and how it's also embedded into the trauma that exists between European
00:34:10.980settlers and indigenous people in settler colonial countries where to begin um i'm going to begin
00:34:22.540by saying that at one point um my spirit guides told me that i as the mother of the children that
00:34:33.340I've birthed I am their first medicine woman and that I can orient my people to life by orienting
00:34:50.580the babies and the toddlers and the young children to life to what makes life to the
00:35:02.660principles of life to the original instructions and that i actually guide the destinies of the
00:35:09.620people in that role of being this first medicine woman to the people and that it's not until they
00:35:18.020get to the place of the coming of age so you know as they're as they're heading into puberty
00:35:23.520at that point you know i've already been with them 10 11 12 13 14 years and and been
00:35:32.520able to give them instruction and orientation and so at that point it's correct for me to
00:35:40.600perhaps turn them over to the medicine men of the community for initiation
00:35:45.280um and and i imagine there are there are women who can also do those initiations of course too
00:35:53.040but but it was explained to me in that way and that and that and it was also just added that
00:35:59.060women's nation has been tricked into giving up that capacity by turning our children over at very
00:36:09.960young ages to kind of random strangers honestly and that has to do with economics and such but
00:36:18.480but i was but it was pointed out to me that that that is a possibility for who i could be
00:36:23.420as the mother and the mothering being to future generations.
00:36:31.100So first of all, I'm going to say that these men who are doing harm,
00:36:40.540they were raised by mothers who had been harmed also.
00:36:46.640They didn't just arise out of nowhere.
00:36:50.440And that's a really hard thought for me.
00:36:52.880But I have four sons, and it's really something to watch how they view women, how they view other humans, and to see what stirs violence in them, what stirs harshness and hard-heartedness in them.
00:37:19.320It's very, very humbling to watch my own sons.
00:37:22.880And to see how well I've done in terms of this question of bringing violent men into the world.
00:37:35.820Makes me want to weep sitting here thinking about it.
00:37:39.740Such an overwhelming prospect and endeavor to raise sons.
00:37:47.780But I love my sons and I am very proud of my sons.
00:37:52.000i'm very proud of their stand for life i'm very proud of their stand for earth all of them all of
00:38:01.060them would go to great lengths and have gone to great lengths to protect earth when my sons
00:38:09.820returned from standing rock they had a new thing a new way about them and that way was you know
00:38:17.260anytime that they were going to take action, environmental stance, and take action here in
00:38:23.820our community, they felt like they needed to have the presence, the blessing, the guidance,
00:38:31.420the prayer of an elder woman. That was new. So I really give congratulations to the women of
00:38:39.120Standing Rock for instilling in these young warriors, you know, and of all the groups of
00:38:45.800humans. They are some of the most intimidating to me, the young warrior men. Intimidating in the
00:38:53.940sense that, you know, I don't ever want to get heavy-handed. I feel like if I had to get heavy-handed
00:38:59.320there, well, you know, I would. And in that sense, I'm not intimidated. But I don't ever want it to
00:39:04.920come to that with them. I want something, another kind of relationship with them. And so I've been
00:39:11.520thinking a lot about this at this time um as i come into my elder womanhood ship as i say you
00:39:19.160know i think in our old societies pre-colonization you know we we went to war at times with different
00:39:26.940our different tribes surrounding us for different reasons and i i believe that it was most likely
00:39:35.340the elder women who had the final say about when we go to war as as being you know i call myself
00:39:43.060holy earth surface walker life bringer life bearer and i stand with the full authority
00:39:48.300of the mother earth with me behind me as me and i am always have the i'm always in the position
00:40:00.060and have the authority to speak on behalf of life
00:41:00.060is how do the elder women reclaim that role to be a guide, to be a voice,0.93
00:41:07.600to be a help and potentially to be that final permission?0.56
00:41:13.620What do I need to do to really know how to do that with these young voyermen?
00:41:18.280So I don't think I've ever answered this question in this way before,
00:41:22.640but it's coming out this way today.0.96
00:41:25.340And I guess what I'm trying to say here is we women have an enormous influence in this world, not through the power over paradigm, but through the actual real life authority, which is this Mother Earth.1.00
00:43:58.300And, well, I'd like to transition our conversation to discuss the topic of consent.
00:44:09.520And there are so many facets we could cover, but something I've really been sitting with
00:44:16.920is how Western ideology and capitalism raise us to understand that in our life, in order to
00:44:26.020obtain our desires, we must never take no for an answer. You know, we are never taught to respect
00:44:34.340limitations or how to take no for an answer gracefully so do you think true consent is
00:44:43.240even possible in this paradigm is it possible in this paradigm i'm not so sure it is i mean
00:44:55.140if indeed it is a power over paradigm in which one must overcome another in order to have what
00:45:01.420you need to live that pretty much demands that you're going to overcome someone else whether
00:45:09.640they give you consent or not and by and large they're probably not going to give you consent
00:45:14.920right so that's where the violence of this paradigm is deeply rooted you know uh
00:45:26.400I think about what it when I when I try to feel into what would it be like for me to be a human
00:45:35.300being that causes all other life to thrive my very presence does one it might be hard for us
00:45:41.660to imagine so I'll take us on a little side side note here which is that my daughter some of you
00:45:47.200may know Lila June Johnston is getting her PhD in indigenous land management practices traditional
00:45:55.300land management practices and um she she told me this really fabulous thing that i just love
00:46:03.700which is that you know they're they're doing taking these core samples out of the earth which1.00
00:46:08.980honestly for indigenous people is a little bit problematic to be just gouging holes into the
00:46:13.600earth just because we want to know something but um but but they have been taken and and so what
00:46:21.880we what they're looking for is the deeper down you go into the earth the farther back in time
00:46:26.220you go because we have these this sediment sedimentary layers of of not only rock but
00:46:32.920life and and actually human activity shows up and so when you go back you know a very long ways
00:46:41.140say even here in the south southeastern united states for instance you'll find that the plant
00:46:48.360life, the diversity of life here might be very minimal, like three or four major species around.
00:46:55.360And then we find that as human beings arrive on the scene, suddenly the biodiversity just
00:47:03.540explodes. And so we have a way of doing a kind of agriculture, I guess we'll say, because there's
00:47:11.220an intention to cause things to fruit and flower such that we will be able to benefit from them
00:47:18.360in a in a somewhat predictable way so that will be my definition of agriculture in this instance
00:47:25.340right and so but the way that we did it wasn't about changing the whole landscape it wasn't
00:47:31.960about making curves into straight lines it was another another way and so we had we did have
00:47:38.420controlled burns um we had anyway we had a huge number of possibilities for managing land and so
00:47:47.480lands were managed for you know tens and hundreds of square miles by a people and so while they
00:47:56.600want to call us hunter gatherers there was actually quite a bit more going on there
00:48:00.540and science modern science is just being beginning to catch up with that and part of the reason it's
00:48:05.780been hard to see is because you can't actually see it on the landscape. Because the idea is to
00:48:10.500not leave a mark, to not leave a monument to yourself, to not show I was here and I did this.
00:48:17.100It was to be in that very deep harmony with this symphony of life. And so, you know,
00:48:25.140when I think about that, and I think, wow, so we actually are, that's what gives me faith in this
00:48:31.720new prayer that I have, we actually could cause places to thrive, to explode in biodiversity
00:48:39.300in a way that was not harmful, in a way that was welcome. And so it's given me this new
00:48:45.020perspective on us as a species, because I think right now I say we have low self-esteem as a
00:48:49.920species, that everything we touch, we destroy. Well, that hasn't always been the case, and it
00:48:55.740really hasn't been even all that long ago relative to the age of earth and actually the age of human
00:49:00.880presence on earth which science hasn't quite caught up with yet either but but they keep
00:49:05.420making discoveries that keep pushing that time further and further back don't they
00:49:09.020we're saying hundreds of thousands of years and so when i see that and i think wow we we have that
00:49:16.420capacity but what was that what was at the root of it and i'm going to say what was at the root of
00:49:21.340it is this understanding of the sovereignty of all beings that when we acknowledge every being
00:49:29.200again, as having not only the right to be there, but as actually a necessary part for my own
00:49:35.880well-being and the well-being of every other life form. I mean, that's what every plant is,
00:49:43.440is it's there supporting all the rest of the life. So yes, I have to think very carefully
00:49:49.820about what I'm going to do if I'm going to interfere with its trajectory of what it has to
00:49:53.960offer. And so to me, this idea of consent, having consensual relationships. So here we are bound
00:50:02.420by a deep law of consent, of the acknowledgement of the sovereignty of all beings, and we're all
00:50:10.080required to eat each other. I mean, it's the craziest setup, right? Like we all have to eat
00:50:16.260somebody, whether it's a carrot or a venison or whatever it's going to be, right? We're going to
00:50:23.980interrupt a life. So that means that we have to come into some kind of place of consensus
00:50:29.760and consent. We have to have a consensual relationship. So this is why we make offerings
00:50:37.600when we're going to take plants, plants for medicine. We ask permission. Who wants to come?
00:50:45.260who who really needs to stay and we make sure that we take only one out of every three or four
00:50:51.940you know so that because because those beings have to continue on in order for everything to
00:50:57.140be well in a region right so consent is inherent to this place that we live in so your question is
00:51:04.460do i think consent can exist in that paradigm in modern world paradigm i'm going to say i don't
00:51:08.920think it can. But I do know that we do have to come into a place of consent and consensual
00:51:16.000relationship with this creation that we have been placed in, if we want to continue on.
00:51:24.280Thank you for sharing your personal experience. And yeah, I'm thinking about how Western narratives
00:51:33.940around environmentalism and climate change, you know, they fix it on humans as these great
00:51:39.860destroyers, which we've been discussing in this conversation. And I think many of us have a hard
00:51:46.240time challenging that notion because we know that the behavior of some is indeed driving many kin
00:51:52.300to their extinction. But I've also been reminded by many leaders that change is inevitable and the
00:51:59.880universe is always in flux so i'm wondering how do you balance our responsibility to uphold the
00:52:05.960integrity of the circle of life as we know it while also revering transformation and change
00:52:12.340even when it appears in the form of destruction
00:52:15.480well i think what helps me hold that is culturally we say that we have already been through several
00:52:28.040worlds so sometimes you might hear indigenous people talk about the the fourth world or the
00:52:34.320fifth world or the sixth world or the fifth sun or such like that and so we're talking about this
00:52:40.320very very long history that i alluded to earlier hundreds of thousands of years of humanity
00:52:45.160being human presence here and and there have been rises and falls with it we've we've lost worlds
00:52:53.180you know my clan grandfather says that the reason we lost the last world which was with the flood
00:52:59.200was because men and women believed they could live separate from each other so some cultures
00:53:04.960even say we know we know how we lost our worlds and had to begin again and then we had um you know
00:53:12.920some benevolent uh relatives you know for us we say it was the dragonfly that led us
00:53:18.840through the hollow reed through the water to be able to come to the upper world again
00:53:24.340and begin again so so you know those stories is that everybody likes to call myths as though
00:53:32.020i don't know i'm not sure what that word means anymore but it implies to me that it's not it's
00:53:38.620not real it's not a true quote-unquote story it's um it's a some kind of moral teaching or
00:53:44.540flight of fancy, but I'm going to say not so. And so I think for me, again, I have to go back to
00:53:53.580what is, what did I come here for? What is my reason for being here now? And what can I do?
00:54:05.300And, you know, I went through a period that I know many people I encounter go through and
00:54:12.560might still be going through and certainly young people are thinking it over that I encounter
00:54:17.140which is you know is it too late is it too late and what's the point or whatever like that and
00:54:23.840then I feel like the way that that got sort of resolved for me is to say you know I
00:54:29.900I feel that my work is either going to help with this fantastic wake up that we
00:54:42.080all hope will somehow happen in the midst of all of our dogmas and and hoarding and
00:54:50.700all the many addictions we have to ways of life that that destroy life um but we nevertheless
00:54:58.220hold out that there's going to be this wake up so either that will happen and my work will
00:55:03.240contribute to that or um my work i i feel like some of the work i get called to do is to so for
00:55:11.540instance, when I was called to do the work around the witch hunts in Europe, and that was named an
00:55:16.440archetypal wounding of humanity, to realign our course there, to retell the truth of the matter
00:55:24.580and the stories about what that really was and what really happened there and how that altered
00:55:29.740the course of humanity, to really spend the time there and to come to the understanding and to
00:55:35.940be willing to be instructed and even torn asunder and reassembled which is pretty much what happened
00:55:42.900to me there and then to be able to tell the story in a new way they said it will automatically
00:55:49.700change your trajectory into the future and so i i trust that i believe that i believe that is
00:55:55.820what is happened at the time when we did the ceremony and it's still unfolding now
00:56:01.160But I feel like that reconciling was almost a moral realignment, and my sense is that that level of healing and realignment plays out along the line of time,
00:56:26.300Even if we end up losing this world and only some of us get to begin again, that that bit of work somehow sets us up to be in a better place than we would have been had that work not been done.
00:56:47.680So that's probably as literal as I've ever been. I've ever spoken about that. But that is how I feel about it.
00:56:54.800So our forgivenesses, our reconciliations, our acknowledgments of traumas that we have inflicted upon each other, all those are so important.
01:00:13.520I've been struggling with forgiveness, and what you just shared was really powerful.
01:00:26.400In a post titled, Native on Native Studies, you write, quote,
01:00:31.940I was given a deep caution by my spirit helpers.
01:00:36.000They said to me that it was crucial to be cautious about making a study of ourselves as indigenous peoples,
01:00:41.720peoples, that we, by doing this, we could endanger our own understanding of who we are
01:00:48.540and how we are. In the same way that the academy tried to make our life through their studies of
01:00:55.120our culture, logical, linear, and intellectual, we, by participating in this academic methodology,
01:01:03.780we ourselves might reduce our way of life into the same two-dimensional understanding, end quote.
01:01:11.720And I think this continues to happen in environmental spheres through the Thetitization of Indigenous knowledge.
01:01:20.780But the other side of this is that the only people who have a successful record of living in relative harmony with the earth are, of course, Indigenous people, which we spoke about earlier.
01:01:32.460And so I have this question swirling for all of those who have a vested interest in sustainability around how to best support rekindling all of the knowledge that has been stripped from so many Indigenous people in so many different ways.
01:01:50.120well i feel that you know this this land back movement taking place in the united states
01:02:03.220in maybe an unprecedented way and by that what do we mean we mean returning lands that were
01:02:11.880traditionally belonged to indigenous peoples for to be back under their care again
01:02:17.720and so that's happening with gifts of land in some instances sometimes funds are gifted to
01:02:28.400the indigenous peoples in order to be able to purchase lands so it's coming back in different
01:02:34.920ways and I actually to my surprise am being called to participate in something like that and
01:02:43.700And so I think that this is a very powerful way and a pretty daunting prospect, honestly, because our lives have become quite complicated, meaning indigenous peoples.
01:03:01.660so we have we have members of certainly my tribe all over the board from phds to traditional
01:03:09.600medicine singers to i don't know just everybody doing lots of different things in lots of
01:03:16.280different ways so for a land to be returned to quote my people there's lots of different ideas
01:03:22.320about about what that could be used for maybe it's going to be used to reenact our old lifestyles or
01:03:30.560maybe it's a way to get a jump on some kind of, you know,
01:03:34.600really lucrative deal. You know it's hard to say what would happen in some
01:03:39.920instances with, well, I've used my own Dene tribe as an example.
01:03:54.880I feel that when we raise that possibility, that there is this possibility of, you know, because we, it's hard for modern world to understand what it means to be so closely tied to a very specific location for thousands of years.
01:04:13.880it's almost beyond our imagining it's almost beyond my imagining but to have that kind of
01:04:19.560relationship to truly be a symbiotic in a symbiotic relationship with place where you are causing you
01:04:27.440know in an ongoing endless cycling of benefit co-benefit that's the engine of sustainability
01:04:35.320that we have known an example we can point to so can that be recreated can can we continue on
01:04:44.780and do that so when we're not able to be in the places that we had that relationship with
01:04:49.620in many instances we can't really truly be the full nature of our people of our culture
01:04:58.040you know i say the mother earth uh you know culture isn't a human construct culture is the
01:05:05.460mother earth expressing herself as human being in any given place so to get that level of
01:05:12.320relationship going is going to take a lot and i think indigenous peoples can do this i think it's
01:05:19.200i think we still hold enough of our ceremonies we could say it's literally in our blood in our dna
01:05:25.640You know, my blood and my DNA is built for desert, high desert. I don't do well in tropical humidity. I mean, I enjoy it for short periods, but it's not that easy for me to thrive there. I mean, it's literally in my DNA to be in this part of the earth, the southwest of what we now call the United States.
01:05:44.240And so to help these indigenous peoples begin to make those relationships again, sometimes the land that's being returned might have to do with our initiation processes.
01:05:56.500Maybe we haven't really been able to hold our initiations as deeply as we once did.
01:06:02.960And maybe by returning that land and allowing us that possibility, we can recreate those really profound relationships with earth.0.99
01:06:14.240And that, you know, what I want to point out is, yes, I know that some of my relatives feel that my Euro descent relatives feel like they really need that part that says, yes, I am doing this because of what my ancestors did to your people.
01:06:27.220and so you know i i acknowledge that it is a form of of justice and and restoration
01:06:35.900and conceivably reconciliation but i also want us to consider that it's going even beyond that
01:06:43.840which is to say that when we when we have human beings enacting those old relationships of the
01:06:51.880most profound sustainability i mean i don't even like that word in that context the most profound
01:06:57.240mad love affair with earth is really what we're talking about um and and not then not only earth
01:07:05.040but but with cosmos so earth has her destiny she has a role to fulfill in our solar system and in
01:07:12.720the cosmos and she's on her way to do that in in in her unfolding and i don't think she's going to
01:07:18.740let us get in her way of doing that but we could be a tremendous ally and help to her in doing that
01:07:25.020so for us to support these land back endeavors i think right now is one very tangible concrete way
01:07:32.440to to help indigenous peoples as for conceptualizing
01:07:39.700it's very conceptualizing our cultures very interesting to hear those words read back to
01:07:49.080me right now but it's it's hard enough for us to hold on to the truth of our
01:07:58.120i mean i want to say ceremonial life our spiritual life but but that is implying as
01:08:04.880though it was somehow separate from our day-to-day life and it's not to be you know the closest I can
01:08:11.140come is knowing what happened when I went into prayer and ceremony during my menstruation
01:08:16.540and really had visions unfold for me one after another about what I could do what a good
01:08:25.580direction would be who what people would be involved even the ceremonies we did for the
01:08:32.040human reunion ceremonies in Europe to address the witch hunts. That was all given to me. So it's
01:08:36.600a collaborative and co-creative relationship with all the rest of the sacred hoop of life.
01:08:45.440And for those of us who are able to and can, I'm going to extend that out to a spiritual
01:08:50.600community of helpers that have been surrounding the earth and have been collaborating with human
01:08:56.700beings and earth for I don't I don't think we can even say how long the white buffalo calf woman
01:09:03.220the blue corn mothers I'm sure there are other entities in other parts of the world but but just
01:09:07.800to name those ones you know to come into that kind of deep collaboration is is hard for us to
01:09:15.780come by in some ways in indigenous culture we're really fighting to preserve that and so this also
01:09:22.180is a part of this question about co-opting culture and misusing a culture so that's something that
01:09:30.400people may not realize is when there's all this because it's very hard to make that jump it's
01:09:37.960very hard to make that jump from intellect into the true meanings of indigenous ceremony very
01:09:45.320very hard and i know that at this time modern world is really seeking that and really trying
01:09:52.900to do that and one of the one of the ways i think they feel like is the easiest way to do that is
01:09:57.380through plant medicines because that will definitely alter your consciousness in ways that
01:10:01.880that nothing else will and that you can't explain and there and things happen during that time
01:10:07.780but honestly i feel like those ways are like way advanced way beyond most human beings on the
01:10:16.460planet at this time until in order to really work with them in a way that is beneficial to life and
01:10:22.040to even your own self um you know in the Lakota way of prayer we say we pray with our own juices
01:10:28.660you know so we're not we're not involved in hallucinogenics we we come into vision through
01:10:35.120fasting generally um and prayer and song um and and to drop into that place is so precious so
01:10:44.620so to for folks to come along and want to hop right in just just notice i'm not saying it
01:10:50.640should never happen i'm probably more open than than many indigenous people you'll meet but i do1.00
01:10:56.980see that it's it's a little bit hard sometimes with this clamoring of people using these ways1.00
01:11:03.220when they're coming out of intellect at the same time as we are desperately trying to hold on
01:11:10.180to what we hold not only for ourselves but for the balance of the whole planet of the whole earth
01:11:17.420for ourselves so that we can keep that straight so that we can have that relationship that is
01:11:24.920necessary for human beings to have with earth sometimes all of that extra stuff to navigate
01:11:33.320by people coming into our cultures and wanting to participate can can make it difficult so it's
01:11:39.920just something to keep in mind as people keep asking me about about that question co-opting
01:11:45.820culture i don't again i don't say never do it don't want it don't you know i can't say that
01:11:52.500but I can't just point out some of the stuff that makes it difficult so that
01:11:56.220hopefully we can be aware and collaborate.
01:12:42.180You know, maybe not, but I've been thinking about this messaging lately and how daunting
01:12:48.280it can be that we may have only about five years to, quote, turn things around. So, you know,
01:12:57.240we kind of spoke about this a little earlier, too. But to close our conversation, I'd like to ask you
01:13:03.080what radical change means for you in your day to day life?
01:13:09.440Well, what I'm noticing, and I think this is something that this quarantine has given everybody
01:13:16.760and opportunity is to understand where do you get your food from and what does that mean
01:13:25.500and what happens when your food supply is chain is cut off and for that matter your toilet paper
01:13:34.300chain and um so we've all hopefully had a good chance to think about that and and and and maybe
01:13:42.640go so far as to say that that getting a bigger storage house and storing more is probably not
01:13:47.700going to cut it um and so i'm i'm no exception so my my job i feel like legitimately has been
01:13:57.400to to voice some of these things like i'm sharing with you right now and so i've been called on to
01:14:03.440do that in in all different parts of the world at different gatherings when lockdown happened
01:14:08.220in the United States. I was just coming from Israel, Jordan, and Palestine. I was going to
01:14:12.840wash my clothes and maybe get some sleep and then take off for Australia and London and Ireland
01:14:18.420two weeks after I got home. And in those two weeks, everything came to a halt.
01:14:23.280So that was my lifestyle. And I had to think a lot about it, about my carbon footprint and et cetera,
01:14:29.280flying. And I kept hearing that, that I needed to do that. And I also needed to be a part of
01:14:38.900drawing, like drawing an energetic web on to the planet with the prayers that I was carrying
01:14:45.920as well. So that's how I, I guess we could say justified that life. It has been really hard to
01:14:55.100just come to a screeching halt as i know it was for many many of us um and so i'm confronted with
01:15:03.600myself pretty deeply you know what was i you know a question really came up early on what what were
01:15:09.760what were you in it for really and um so i've had to gain clarity about that again and and now
01:15:17.480um like i say this land back piece is coming up there's there's a uh some folks who have land at
01:15:25.120the base of one of our four sacred mountains that is is pretty much all private land at the base so
01:15:30.140we haven't really had much access to that mountain for our own ceremonies and such and now they want
01:15:35.700to sell it and they they really would like me and my family to be the keepers of it and um and
01:15:43.000they've always wanted people to have access to the mountain so that's like a pretty radical
01:15:48.660turn for me like i've been asking spirit lately seriously so now now it's time for me to be like
01:15:54.360a homesteader you know like i wish you'd brought this up when i was in my 30s because now
01:15:58.440i'm coming up on 60 and um it's not going to be that easy and and the truth is it's not going to
01:16:04.520be that easy for me to just you know put my head down and do it all myself which is unfortunately
01:16:10.640a little bit of my mo uh but uh but no so it's forcing me like if i'm really going to listen to
01:16:17.880that call which i have always to the best of my ability answered every single call that spirit
01:16:23.060has ever given to me what i'm standing in the front of this one going wow this is a big one
01:16:28.440to go live out in a very remote place and to begin to build community that is based on
01:16:34.900spiritual values and principles that i hold now and that i'm going to come in to learn from my
01:16:41.060own people and again to also be able to say you know um you know i don't i don't want uh i don't
01:16:50.160think i don't think it's necessary either but i i don't see the need for having tribal government
01:16:54.600involved with this endeavor even though it is to benefit ultimately dine people
01:16:59.360uh so it'll probably be held as a private transaction um but it's it's radical it's a
01:17:06.200totally different lifestyle a totally different way of being and i just feel like um as as hard
01:17:13.860at some days it's it's really like an overwhelming prospect and other days i'm very excited about it
01:17:20.840um but but i really feel like we each one of us has to have an ear out for such a radical calling
01:17:32.060at this time uh because the life that we have been living cannot be lived much longer
01:17:38.640it just cannot and already you know as as the spirit said to me by the time all of the chaos
01:17:48.040the chaos of the earth hits first world nations it's going to be late late late late in the game
01:17:56.120and so i feel like this is where we're at we're seeing you know a lot of our relatives have
01:18:01.580already been deeply overcome by all the changes and are already in that position of trying to
01:18:07.660understand what in the world to do and and some of them were maybe trying to prepare but probably
01:18:13.460many of them were not and so I was told you know to to not necessarily go into this sense of shame
01:18:20.400and guilt that that wasn't going to serve but to really ask myself why am I in this position so
01:18:26.380here I am an indigenous woman who's who is not even supposed to be here the plan was genocide
01:18:31.940I was supposed to be exterminated but but my ancestors lived through that and I'm here and
01:18:37.760I'm living here in a first so-called first world nation and what does that mean what what am I able
01:18:45.580to do from this place who am I able to be as you say and as I've been saying to uphold the honor
01:18:51.500of being human being now and so this is the calling that's coming for me in conjunction
01:18:58.220with working with a lot of other people who are who are involved in similar endeavors so
01:19:03.800I feel like we are looking for our place to create is as one of my favorite authors back when I used
01:19:12.300to read pre pre-menopause I read Joseph Chilton Pierce's The Biology of Transcendence and he
01:19:19.280talks about you know maybe the goal isn't to to try to create global change but the goal maybe
01:19:26.200is to create lifeboats of coherence and that if we create these lifeboats of coherence
01:19:33.520that when structures fall when chaos hits that the new will begin to coalesce around these
01:19:42.820lifeboats of coherence and so that's another teaching that I that I take forward into my
01:19:49.760life right now is and I feel like whatever this calling is that the mountain it's actually the
01:19:54.600mountain calling is calling for a certain kind of lifeboat of coherence there and I'm doing
01:20:01.480everything i know including yesterday crying my eyes out to be you know i don't have to know how
01:20:10.220it's going to happen i just have to be i just have to not say no that's what the spirits tell me
01:20:15.760as long as you don't say no we will see this through it will happen so i'm doing all in my
01:20:22.240power to be able to at least not say no and working very very deeply on being able to say yes
01:20:33.400thank you pat for sharing that and everything that you have opened us up to in this conversation
01:20:45.980And I'm really glad you're saying yes, and I feel confident for you and excited for the radical changes in your life and feeling very certain that they will inspire radical changes in others that get to come into connection with you.
01:21:08.300wow i'm really so moved by this conversation and i feel like i'm definitely gonna spend
01:21:17.660the whole weekend just letting it sink in thank you well well thank you thank you for having me
01:21:26.900and i'm really grateful to have this conversation um there's uh things that i've said today that i
01:21:34.140don't think i've ever said so i find that very satisfying thank you for listening to for the
01:21:42.840wild podcast the music you heard today was by the range of light wilderness violet bell and sea stars
01:21:49.020for the wild is created by ayana young erica ekram francesca glassbell and julia jackson