00:13:49.920and bringing queer people of colour firmly into the conversation,
00:13:54.140and this cover so to describe it for you we've got lady phil looking fabulous in a leather blazer
00:14:01.200with lovely statement shoulder pads and she is holding up a gold loudspeaker and she is absolutely0.99
00:14:10.160she's very beautiful lady phil and she's very femme and she's got her makeup on she's got her
00:14:15.800hair perfect she's looking strong powerful fierce and fabulous and she's got this big gold loudspeaker0.67
00:14:23.160and she's staring you right in the eyes in, I think, a defiant way, a confident way.1.00
00:14:29.820And we've got here that she's the queen of the protest, which is kind of how I see Lady Phil.
00:14:35.700And then if we look at the kind of the cover lines as well, because that's interesting to look at, isn't it?
00:14:40.080So we've got a real mix. So we've got Che Diaz isn't here for anyone's approval.
00:14:45.460So this is Sara Ramirez, the star of And Just Like That, who is also a non-binary queer activist as well as an actor.
00:14:56.400And I interviewed Sara for this issue and that was fascinating and wonderful because they had all sorts of things to say about representation.
00:15:05.740That's the one Miranda leaves her husband for, right?
00:24:14.800Well, exactly, apart from anything else, the rise of the internet.
00:24:17.940But we've also seen, I guess it's fair to say,
00:24:19.840like ever-increasing waves of consumerism
00:24:22.360and even the rise of the so-called pink pound.
00:24:24.940And I'm just wondering how, you know, how Diva might fit into some of that, how it's funded now and whether its business model has changed.
00:24:32.260So some things are the same, like the reality is we are an independent queer magazine run by and for queer people.
00:24:41.660So there's always been kind of, you know, how can we do this for a smaller budget?
00:24:45.600But in terms of like the thing about the pink pound, it's really interesting because I think that there's still a sense sometimes with some brands that they've got a diversity quota they're going to fill.
00:24:59.220And if they have advertised with Gay Times or Attitude or a predominantly male queer title, then they think, well, they've ticked that box and they're not as enthusiastic to tick it with Diva because they've already been diverse.
00:25:14.100And I think that kind of stereotypes about gay women and bi women, that also comes into play a little bit with that.
00:25:23.020So in terms of selling advertising space, like there are definitely still obstacles and hurdles that you have to climb over.
00:25:30.340But we don't just make revenue that way, as well as the selling the magazine and selling the advertising space.
00:25:36.960We have now expanded a lot what we do.
00:25:39.740So we do also have revenue that comes from things like events.
00:25:43.220so we have the diva awards we have lesbian visibility week and we have some other events
00:25:48.620and stuff that we do that that all kind of are additional streams of revenue that come into it
00:25:53.900yes i just wanted to mention that it was quite a novelty to charge for diva at time
00:25:59.780so when we were on stalls at pride people would just pick it up and go oh sorry sweetie you have
00:26:04.240to pay for it and i thought at the time that that would enable the writers to get paid well
00:26:09.900you know what I mean so it's disappointing that you should have to work to smaller budgets because
00:26:14.380in a sense like all the wealth should be pouring through that way and at the time I thought that
00:26:18.840was going to lead to good things and I suppose subsequently we're really aware of how sometimes
00:26:24.080those business models don't work out for like freelance writers or people that are freelance
00:26:28.440artists or creatives generally so just like a full circle really of the 90s the kind of promise of
00:26:35.180how that would pan out and where the wealth would be distributed
00:26:38.380and in whose hands power and ownership and money would really lie.
00:26:43.300So those are all still very pressing issues, I think,
00:26:46.080in terms of to what extent we can represent community
00:26:49.060or what are the structures that allow us to do that
00:26:51.400in a way that distributes cash in a productive way.
00:27:35.720So this is another thing about Diva, which is a beauty and a challenge of Diva,
00:27:41.580is that really the only thing that our readers have in common1.00
00:27:45.060is that either you are a member of the LGBTQIA community
00:27:49.020or you are someone that wants to read an inclusive feminist publication
00:27:53.580exploring women's identities and non-binary identities.
00:27:58.240But apart from that, we're all sorts of different people.
00:28:01.480where you know you get a diva reader who is 13 years old and figuring out who they are and wants
00:28:08.540to read something that speaks to that and you get a diva reader in her 80s you know so it's a massive
00:28:14.500cross-section I'd be interested to hear more about the readership in your day as well Francis and
00:28:19.340what that might have looked like initially I think I came across a questionnaire on one of the early
00:28:23.400divas which was surveying like a reader sample yeah it was I think a sample of 60 and it was
00:28:28.700sort of age ranges and like where they lived in the uk things like that that's interesting well
00:28:32.280you're there were people picking it up for free that were like oh there was that lot
00:28:35.460the one thing that lodged in my brain from reading the questionnaire was that the age bracket was
00:28:40.700mainly 25 to 35 yeah that would make sense a young woman's magazine for sure oh you know because well
00:28:47.280i was young at that point and i suppose that was the moment where there was a sort of rebellion
00:28:52.740against that particular kind of feminism where feminism with a big f fractured into all these
00:28:57.360different parts and this was very much moving with one particular sort of sex positive aspect of
00:29:04.220feminism so that is reflected in articles quite interestingly actually in terms of those tensions
00:29:10.560between that moment that flip over between sort of what used to be called the lesbian sex wars at
00:29:16.560that time yeah so i want to talk about the f word and francis you already touched on this
00:29:23.380And although the word feminist doesn't appear in Diva's bylines, my feeling is that Diva's form and content is very much shaped by feminist thought.
00:29:33.280You can see it everywhere. There's actually quite complex gender theory.0.93
00:29:37.560Judith Butler and the like gets elegantly wrapped into articles in very clear and jargon free prose.
00:29:44.200There are several articles. I think so. Yeah.
00:29:46.540Well, there's there are several articles about the acceptability or not of the F word.
00:29:51.400going right back to early diva these debates about whether young lesbians for instance are happy
00:29:56.220to adopt the label feminist or the label lesbian for that matter yeah in october 1995 diva ran a0.99
00:30:02.640piece that asked has feminism become a dirty word for young lesbians um so francis had you been0.69
00:30:08.340involved in other forms of feminist and lgbt activism prior to diva and how did the magazine0.94
00:30:14.640connect to that activism my first sort of touching with feminism was through books
00:30:19.040so my sister-in-law was American and brought back books from America that were like feminist novels1.00
00:30:25.900like Marilyn French's The Woman's Room where there'd be one lesbian character and you'd be like1.00
00:30:29.280because I was hungry for that I'd be like rifling through her books thinking where's lesbians in
00:30:33.360these books you know what I mean in that kind of way but then I also as well as Rubyfield Jungle
00:30:37.500I was reading Claudette you know so I was a bit like mixed up I didn't have any reference points
00:30:42.580at all like I actually went high femme at 18 and wore fancy kind of white gloves and thought you
00:30:48.280You know, V&A posters and crinolines, I had no cultural references whatsoever.
00:30:51.760I was more targeted by my hormones at that time to, like, seeking out lesbianism than feminism as such.
00:30:59.680So my first activism would be with Lesbian and Gay Action up in Liverpool Art College when I came out of there.0.50
00:31:05.680We jumped on the map of Britain during this morning and we used to write graffiti lesbians everywhere outside, like supermarkets and daft stuff like that.
00:31:15.220And so we mixed a lot with other groups that were doing that kind of politics at the time.0.84
00:35:44.460is that if you give, you know, EDI awards to companies
00:35:47.060that are actively destructive, like Shell or whatever,
00:35:50.740that that's like a really retrogressive move as well.
00:35:53.100So it's like the politics has become not so simple as we got the funding, we're sex positive and it's gone into a new area, I think, in terms of how that problematises something like Diva.
00:36:08.660And so, yeah, I mean, I think you mentioned when we met the fracturing of feminism in the 90s is also the backdrop against the sort of founding of Diva.
00:36:15.040And the neoliberal capture, you know, because it was meant to be this moment of progression from Thatcher.
00:36:20.060And it was, but to a lot of extent, a lot of what Tony Blair carried on was Thatcher's legacy
00:36:25.300in terms of the neoliberal models of business and commercialisation.
00:36:30.100So there was community contact, was lost perhaps a little bit in terms of accountability
00:36:35.620or who is actually making the money.1.00
00:36:38.800So, yeah, so we've got this sort of all these, you know, different moments in feminism,1.00
00:36:43.740feminisms I should say you know we've got I guess what is often called the girl boss feminism0.91
00:36:47.940of you know the late 90s perhaps and then I mean more recently of course we've had
00:36:53.320me too and we've you know we've seen the emergence of terms like intersectionality
00:36:58.220which have become much more sort of widely used than ever before and Roxy I mean how does that
00:37:04.140speak to your experience of editing diva and the the sorts of currents that you have to navigate
00:37:10.540feminist political currents which can get pretty choppy at times I know. Indeed yeah those currents0.99
00:37:16.860do definitely get quite choppy. So in terms of I mean conversations around intersectionality for
00:37:23.400instance that's definitely something that everyone at Diva is very familiar with and that we talk
00:37:28.840about a lot and it was certainly something that when I became editor that was part of my sort of
00:37:35.560mission statement with Diva was to to try and reach out to everyone in all different
00:37:43.280intersectional identities within our community to give them that same experience I had as a
00:37:48.840closeted teenager with Diva magazine and so certainly we talk a lot about intersectionality
00:37:54.380and certainly we try and look at passing the mic to people from intersectional identities to tell
00:38:02.040their own stories and speak to their own experience and to hone in and drill down on specific
00:38:07.860nuanced lived experiences of, for example, a trans person of colour navigating the dating world or
00:38:14.540a bisexual woman in the workplace, you know, like going into those very specific experiences.
00:38:21.580So certainly we think about intersectionality. And then in terms of the feminist conversation,
00:38:55.800a trans inclusive space. And also, I think something that's great about Diva is that if
00:39:02.300you look at mainstream coverage of trans issues and trans identities and trans stories, so much
00:39:08.000of it is inflammatory. So much of it is overtly transphobic. We've got politicians saying overtly
00:39:13.400transphobic stuff. So if Diva can be a counterpoint to that narrative that's out there in the
00:39:19.380mainstream, I think that's really powerful and important that, I mean, we might be a smaller
00:39:23.960a voice in the mainstream landscape but we are a voice and this is what we're saying. Yeah that's
00:39:30.800so important and it seems also really interesting to me and really relevant that in a way you're
00:39:35.660also confounding a narrative that would potentially oppose the lesbian community to the trans
00:39:40.560community. It does reflect the reality though actually that is perhaps even a commercial reality
00:39:45.780that most lesbians are trans inclusive in their thinking. It would be foolish to take a different0.94
00:39:50.840position. I mean, so many people you meet, if they just listen to the mainstream media come
00:39:54.780away with the wrong impression, because that's all the information they get. So it is very
00:39:57.860important to have that reflected in Diva, for sure.
00:40:01.600Yeah, I know. I do think that it's a very powerful example of media activism,
00:40:05.880intervening in what is an overwhelmingly transphobic media narrative with so much
00:40:10.100conviction, especially at a time when online spaces and reactions can be so febrile.
00:40:16.760On that note, can we talk about feelings?
00:40:19.340For sure. I think that working at Diva is an all consuming job. And that can be an absolutely gorgeous, glorious thing. But you're also every day, the tools of your trade are both the queer joy in the community and the things that are wonderful about being part of this community, but also the divisions and the trauma and the pain and the serious things that are happening right now.
00:40:44.580And I think that navigating that is a challenge, to be really honest.
00:40:51.320And I think something I think about as an editor is the well-being, not only like looking after my own well-being, navigating all that, but making sure they're OK.
00:41:01.780Like, you know, making sure the team is OK.
00:41:03.980because when we're writing about something that's happened you know say we're writing about some
00:41:10.220awful new legislation that's coming in or some horrible protest or some horrid transphobic thing
00:41:16.000that's being said we're writing about things that affect our lives our communities our loved ones
00:41:22.200lives and that's pretty heavy so certainly as well as thinking about how can we make the best
00:41:29.540magazine we can make there is also a sense of making sure that we're all okay while we're doing
00:41:35.780it because it is it's an intense intense job but that's not to diminish the glory and the
00:41:41.300gorgeousness of it because I have so many warm lovely feelings about Diva and something in
00:41:47.460editing each issue that I'm very conscious of is the balance of how you navigate that that tight
00:41:53.620rope line of not shying away from the serious stuff that's happening. But also, I do want
00:42:00.180readers to leave Diva magazine feeling good about who they are.
00:42:06.060Yes, and that thread really runs through the whole of Diva, wanting to celebrate to make
00:42:10.640visible but without denying or ignoring serious and difficult issues that affect the queer
00:42:15.440community. I've just got one final question. Something that really struck me was that in
00:42:22.140Francis's first editorial for Diva in 1994, you wrote that while lesbians may not be everywhere,
00:42:30.220we're certainly getting somewhere. And Roxy, in a recent article for Cosmopolitan, you wrote0.94
00:42:36.020something sadly similar. So what does it mean, and I'm quoting Roxy here, to be a lesbian in 2023?
00:42:42.480It means celebrating how far we've come, but understanding how much further we have to go.
00:42:49.020So how far have we come since Diva was first published?
00:42:53.760I'm not sure how much I think of myself as a lesbian these days.
00:42:56.940There'd be other words within that one, you know.
00:42:58.980I don't feel attached to it in the way that everything depends on it.
00:43:05.220And I think that's quite a healthy outlook.
00:43:07.660But I think all of these categories are evolving and reshaping.
00:43:13.180And in a way, there's something reassuring about going back to Diva0.81
00:43:16.880because it's like quite clear this is lesbians is what lesbians do this is what lesbians like
00:43:21.420and it's there so you can refer to that but ultimately you know we're constantly changing
00:43:28.980over our life course how we feel about being lesbian you know it changes when you're 25 to
00:43:33.540when you're 55 for sure and that that is a positive evolution to constantly adopt discard
00:43:41.480adapt reject affirm celebrate despair all of that stuff it goes into how you might feel about the
00:43:50.580word lesbian or being one over a lifetime so I think things are easier in many ways and are
00:43:58.080better but the strength of the right-wing backlash at the moment is enormous and will require a new
00:44:05.280kind of activism and conceptualisation of how we work together in order to fully resist as the
00:44:12.660future? So I think that in many ways since the 90s, yes, the communities come on leaps and bounds.
00:44:19.800Yes, we've got so much more visibility. Yes, more people than ever feel comfortable to come out
00:44:24.980and claim an identity, whether that is lesbian or whether that's bisexual or non-binary or
00:44:31.460transgender or queer or whatever, or asexual or whatever that is, whether that stays one thing
00:44:37.120or whether that changes throughout the course of their life. So I think there's a lot of ways where
00:44:41.700we can see we've come on leaps and bounds. Legally, in the UK, we've certainly got some more legal
00:44:47.480rights than we had in 1994. But I am struck by how far we've come and yet how far we still have
00:44:55.460to go. And as you've said, Frances, about the right wing backlash, that is very, very real and
00:45:01.220very, very frightening. And the increasing recorded hate crime, both homophobic hate crime,
00:45:08.960but also alarmingly transphobic hate crime, the way that people in government feel fine to say
00:45:16.940things about, you know, queer refugees or trans people. And these are just issues that we're
00:45:23.780talking about here in the UK. If you look, you know, farther afield, then my God, there's some
00:45:29.880very serious progress that needs to happen around the globe for our community. So I do feel like we
00:45:36.460still have a long way to go. In my optimistic, hopeful times, I feel I feel good about the
00:45:43.440increasing visibility and the increasing ability that people feel able to express themselves. But
00:45:51.100also visibility, I think, in a way brings vulnerability and can remind people that they
00:45:57.900don't like us yeah so i think it's it's a tricky thing to navigate and i think diva's place in that
00:46:05.300is that we want to be a place that celebrates and records and documents this this visibility boom
00:46:11.860and explores that but also hopefully we can be media for activism hopefully we can help to
00:46:18.900work towards some of those changes that are so desperately needed yeah i'm so grateful for the
00:46:25.020still small voice of reason and calm that publications like Diva provide in our checkered
00:46:30.720and divisive media landscape. And Francis, it's so fascinating to hear your reflections on the
00:46:37.320fluctuations of queer identity over a lifetime. I think there are similar fluctuations to be
00:46:42.460tracked across Diva's run, thanks to the increased fluidity of sex, gender and sexuality in the 21st
00:46:49.460century. There's actually an excellent recent Diva article, The L with the T by Christine Burns.
00:46:55.020on this topic so I think that all that's left to say now is thank you a huge thank you to Roxy
00:47:03.040and Francis for coming in and sharing all of your insights on working on such a powerhouse
00:47:09.320magazine this has been Diva Now and Then thank you yeah thank you so much for having us
00:48:11.880So what Francis picks up on there in the conversation, and I did want to expand on this, was the tie between sex-positive feminism and commercialisation.
00:49:55.560But at the same time, they were doing some really interesting things.
00:49:58.460That's such a good point. And there's, as you say, a real counter-narrative to Frances's account in this episode where she talks about that actually, in fact, lively political publishing scene in the 1990s.
00:50:11.960And doesn't she mention jumping on the This Morning weather map as well?
00:50:18.260What a great moment. And Liverpool has this amazingly radical history. This is where Frances went to college.
00:50:25.120And she mentions that in the 80s, Liverpool's Labour-run city council was led by a left-wing group known as the Militant Tendency.
00:50:33.940And Militant were bitterly opposed to Thatcher's government.
00:50:36.740And they had this amazing slogan that it was better to break the law than break the poor.
00:50:42.120And it was out of these circles and this legacy in the early 1990s that Francis, you know, as she was describing, you know, became politicised.
00:50:52.860I thought the other thing that really emerged from this discussion
00:50:56.480was the importance of reading for young lesbians in particular.
00:51:00.800I liked it when Frances was talking about playing a game of find a lesbian
00:51:16.160And of course, Roxy's amazing trajectory from reader to editor and the way that she talks about her engagement with Diva magazine really hammers home the kinds of strong feelings that a magazine like that puts into circulation for particular constituencies of reader.
00:51:40.180Particularly for marginalised communities, how important is it to see Diva on the shelves in your local newsagent and know that there are other people out there?
00:51:50.020Yeah, that was really striking, the stories that we got there from Roxy and from Frances.
00:51:54.600And that comes back to the physical object of the magazine, how important it is, the work that it does, how it sort of enables that sort of chance encounter that can transform a life.
00:52:05.120If only someone would make a podcast about that.