00:00:00.000welcome to maintenance phase the podcast wait why can't i do this oh yeah welcome to maintenance
00:00:18.520phase the podcast that will finally make an episode that other people will call salty there
00:00:23.480we go see you did it it's okay it's like six out of ten we're doing the episodium i'm michael
00:00:32.080hops i'm aubrey gordon if you would like to support the show you can do that at patreon.com
00:00:37.520slash maintenance phase you can also subscribe through apple podcast it's the same audio content
00:00:43.900same stuff aubrey we're talking about salt today mike this was like the anxiety around diet growing
00:00:50.840up yep it was like low fat and like low salt were the two things you need to strive for this came up
00:00:55.660in our bonus episode about 80s diets that a ton of them were like extremely low salt yeah it is
00:01:05.700a thing that came up for me with my mom called me and said that a friend of hers invited her over to
00:01:13.120taste her cooking and make sure that it had the right amount of salt because her friend
00:01:17.300does not use salt ever. This is a decades long fight that I've been having with my mom.0.99
00:01:22.900She does not put salt in foods. And she says, if you want salt, you can just salt it at the end.0.54
00:01:27.480Like if you're eating chili, you could salt it at the end. And I keep trying to explain that
00:01:30.660that's not how it works. Sorry, mom. She can't overcome her heritage. That's right.
00:01:36.560Everyone's white mom grew up like this. Right. We're all products of our time.0.95
00:01:41.480So I think the central question that I wanted to like explore here is how did we get from this idea in the 70s and 80s that reducing your salt as much as possible was one of the most important things that you could do for your health to the point now where many folks have just dropped that guidance altogether.
00:02:03.920Yeah. And folks are generally not paying attention to their salt intake. And even some folks are even opting for electrolyte beverages to up their salt intake. Right. So how do we get from point A to point Z?
00:02:17.460Because it's kind of fallen off the radar, like the wellness radar. You don't hear about salt in the way that you used to.
00:02:23.960People have this idea that like, you're not going to be able to salt your food at the table if we talk about salt. That's not true. According to the research, depending on which study, between three and 7% of American salt is added in home cooking or at the table.
00:02:49.100We're talking much less about individual decisions and sort of policing individual decisions than we are talking about food supplies and ways in which you might be consuming salt that you don't really know is consuming salt or you don't really think about is consuming salt.
00:03:59.860The highest consumption once you learn. So lowest consumption is Samoa. They consume about a teaspoon of salt a day, five grams of salt. So that's two grams of sodium. The highest is China with 17 grams of salt a day.
00:04:19.800But are you sure this wasn't a survey of which country is the saltiest, like the most irritable?
00:04:24.400You think China is the most irritable country and we're number 50?
00:04:28.620i can't argue with statistics aubrey so samoa at five grams of salt is much much closer to the
00:04:35.720actual who recommendations fda recommendations all of that kind of stuff wait so what is what
00:04:41.240is the who recommendation in teaspoons uh it's like about a teaspoon is the what we should be
00:04:47.040aiming for that's like the goal okay next question we're gonna do a little salt mortal combat oh
00:04:54.000finish him which of these has the most salt we're gonna do one teaspoon of each of these things
00:05:00.120which one do you think has the most salt and which one do you think has the least salt okay
00:05:04.380the options are a teaspoon of table salt a teaspoon of msg a teaspoon of marmite a teaspoon
00:05:13.940of soy sauce and a teaspoon of grated parmesan from context clues i think the answer is soy0.92
00:05:23.800sauce but also marmite is like pure fucking salt like on your tongue it's so unbelievably salty0.86
00:05:29.400so i'm gonna say marmite and soy sauce is a close second am i wrong i'm sure i'm wrong you're very0.92
00:05:35.500wrong okay marmite contains less sodium than a teaspoon of salt really it's so salty though on
00:05:42.440my on my mouth uh so here's the story one teaspoon of salt contains 2300 milligrams of sodium a
00:05:49.780teaspoon of soy sauce has 3 000 milligrams of sodium so okay considerably more right like
00:05:59.300almost 50 percent more sodium yeah a teaspoon of marmite has 340 milligrams of sodium wait what
00:06:06.480one tenth almost one tenth the amount of soy sauce was i the wrongest it's possible to be
00:06:12.280no you weren't the wrongest it's possible to be okay here's the other one that i found fascinating
00:06:17.440Grated Parmesan has about 25 milligrams of sodium in one teaspoon.
00:08:41.460that's your recovery drink my recovery cheeseburger the question here is if we're not
00:08:46.480getting it from foods that taste salty if we're not getting super high levels of sodium from the0.97
00:08:52.360baconator but we are from like a salad where the fuck is the salt coming from the cheesecake0.90
00:08:58.980factory it's all coming from the cheesecake factory salt is used in food in ways that go0.94
00:09:03.400way beyond palatability right the big one is that salt is overwhelmingly used as a preservative
00:09:10.760Right. Cured foods, especially things like lox, bacon, ham, prosciutto, salami, really high in sodium. Pickled foods are pickled with a mixture of salt and sugar. So they have quite a bit of both. Canned foods use salt both to preserve and to inhibit bacteria growth.
00:09:30.900Salt is also heavily used in meat production, not just as seasoning, but as a way to increase
00:10:25.620Such products are far higher in sodium than plain natural meat.
00:10:28.580Judging by a 2006 study of poultry, consumers nationwide were paying $2.6 billion, adjusted for inflation, annually for the added solution.
00:10:37.300Add in the beef and pork products that are watered down, and it appears that consumers are now being cheated out of at least $4 billion annually, and possibly much more.
00:10:45.620This is why I kind of hate it at the grocery store, how they like spritz the produce with water.
00:10:51.200You know, and they have like the cute little thunder sound now, and then like the little spray comes on.
00:10:55.600i'm like i'm paying by the pound for these apples i don't want little drops of water on them i want0.96
00:11:00.040them shriveled as god intended do you know how much water a fucking head of broccoli will soak0.97
00:11:06.120up i'm like shaking it out at the store as if as if i'm like opening a sugar packet i'm like0.99
00:11:11.720your cheapskate tendencies really are boundless i'm not paying for water the other thing that
00:11:18.440is sort of related to a profit motive is that high sodium foods trigger a thirst response so
00:11:24.840whether by design or by happenstance serving high sodium foods can encourage people to order more
00:11:33.160drinks which as anybody who's worked in the restaurant biz knows is like where your bread
00:11:38.060and butter comes from right yeah so to speak there's also i think this is probably an urban
00:11:42.780legend but when i was living in london there's a thing where you go to nightclubs drink whatever
00:11:47.640it's like two in the morning you're walking home and they have like not quite food trucks but like
00:11:52.380booths on the street that will sell like hot dogs and like french fries and stuff and they call it
00:11:57.680mistake away because it's always bad you feel like shit the next day but people there the sort of the0.54
00:12:02.740explanation of these was that if you're at a bar you're drinking a ton of liquid so your body's0.95
00:12:07.340like salt balance is out of whack at the end of a night of drinking and so your body craves like
00:12:12.380super salty foods because you're low in sodium so that's like why you want like french fries and
00:12:17.440like a shawarma or whatever at the end of the night it's sort of like at a subconscious level
00:12:21.580You're just like, oh, I want like terrible food.
00:12:24.040I don't know whether that's true, but I did eat those hot dogs all the time for my health.
00:12:26.720The main thing we're going to talk about today as we start to sort of chart the path of like how we got here is something called the salt hypertension hypothesis.
00:21:58.140It was a very ambitious global study of sodium consumption.
00:22:04.900There are different ways to measure sodium intake.
00:22:08.960One of the ways that you can do it is from self-report data, as we've discussed many times on the show.
00:22:15.540that's like generally unreliable, but it's especially unreliable given how much people
00:22:21.160misunderstand where salt is in their diet, right? The other one you can do is you can look at
00:22:28.180consumer data about how much salt people are buying per capita, but dietary salt, like culinary salt
00:22:36.620is such a small fraction of salt sales in the u.s right salt is used in a bunch of like medical
00:22:46.600equipment and uh treatments like you've got to have medical grade saline solution right for a
00:22:52.900bajillion fucking things right you need salt to de-ice roads right yeah so the gold standard for
00:23:01.040this kind of stuff are biomarkers, either blood work or urinalysis. And it's like how much sodium0.99
00:23:06.760I ate in the last 24 hours or something. Yeah. It's how much is coming out in your pee. So
00:23:11.100they're taking urine samples. They're measuring these sodium biomarkers and they're taking folks
00:23:17.140blood pressure regularly. Okay. They ran a bunch of controls on the study. They found that across
00:23:23.620genders, across races and across nationalities, people who consumed more sodium had higher blood
00:23:30.640pressure on average than people with the same demographics that consumed less. Okay.
00:23:36.860InterSalt's results were released in the late 1980s, and they made a huge splash. That led to
00:23:44.080a huge wave of press, but neither the findings nor the press around them accounted for some really
00:23:51.380important variables, right? One is where the sodium was coming from, which varies pretty
00:23:57.300widely from one country's food system to the next, right? The other thing that the Intersault
00:24:02.380study didn't account for is what individuals should do as a result of these findings, right?
00:24:09.080That's not actually what the study was. It wasn't looking for, hey, what should most people do for
00:24:14.260their health? Right. It's a descriptive study. They're just like trying to find a phenomenon.
00:24:18.520That's right. But it's released in the late 80s, which is like exactly when certainly the US is
00:24:24.760taking off in terms of health conscious behaviors. So a bunch of people hear this thing about salt
00:24:33.000consumption is associated with higher blood pressure and they go, aha, I got to take the
00:24:39.260salt shaker off the table. In 1990, Congress passed the Nutrition Labeling and Education Act,
00:24:47.600which is what standardized our food labels to include like X percent of your vitamin C for the
00:24:53.600day and y percent of your sodium and sodium is included in that labeling requirement yeah this
00:25:01.100is kind of where we start to get the unhinged i wrote this in my notes before your mom was the
00:25:08.180example but i did write this is where we get your unhinged low salt moms and uncles and whatever
00:25:13.620right the white people took this and ran yeah following intersalt and the findings of intersalt0.88
00:25:20.400a bunch of nations around the world, including the U.S., launched national trials related to
00:25:28.200sodium and hypertension. In the U.S., ours was the DASH study, Dietary Approaches to Stop
00:25:35.800Hypertension. DASH was a randomized controlled trial of 459 adult participants that all had
00:25:44.020elevated blood pressure so we're once again looking at interventions for hypertension right
00:25:50.420all of the sort of adherence stuff that we've talked about is a challenge when you're in the
00:25:56.040wild so what they decided to do was be like cool you're eating two of your three meals a day at the
00:26:02.800research center oh and then you're getting a third one in a cooler to take home with you okay so it's
00:26:10.040super prescribed study participants were cycled through three different diets each for three
00:26:16.280weeks at a time and they also answered a standard like battery of questions about symptoms that they
00:26:23.600might be having like the classic like back of the head hypertension headache or that kind of thing
00:26:29.220right every single one of them just said i'm hungry i'm so hungry i'm eating these terrible
00:26:33.900meal that the lab gives me i've been living like this for six weeks so the three diets are this
00:26:41.160one there's a control diet it was sort of intended to reflect the standard american diet at the time
00:26:49.000right the fruits and vegetables diet was similar to the control diet but had just more fruits and
00:26:56.660vegetables in it more fiber and then the dash diet which centered around fruits vegetables and
00:27:04.820low fat dairy okay that diet was high in calcium high in magnesium high in potassium protein and
00:27:12.040fiber it was low in fat and saturated fat but it's not super low in salt no oh so the first dash
00:27:18.920trial is just can we look at just the foods that people eat period so it's like low fat
00:27:26.060careful eating and baconator it's just comparing those three things the findings were significant
00:27:34.320and they were heralded as such people who didn't have hypertension but did have sort of elevated
00:27:41.080blood pressure had a modest but meaningful decrease in their blood pressure of like three
00:27:48.400to five points ish. And people who did have hypertension on average had a much larger
00:27:55.540decrease in blood pressure of five to 11 points. That's with the DASH diet. So the DASH diet worked
00:28:02.160to reduce blood pressure, which is the goal of the diet. Absolutely. So as a follow up to the DASH
00:28:08.940trial, those same researchers ran a second DASH study called the DASH sodium trial. Same kind of
00:28:17.260research design but instead of cycling through these three different diets they cycled through
00:28:23.080the dash diet at different sodium levels okay cool the results this time were even more striking
00:28:29.540the lower sodium diets yielded much more significant drops in blood pressure okay
00:28:35.820we're now into the world of like double digit changes in your blood pressure and that's
00:28:41.560genuinely huge right yeah this actually sounds like a pretty good study or at least something
00:28:46.440promising as a biological mechanism that like you should do more research to figure out but like
00:28:51.600they found a real effect so here's the challenge with the dash diet the dash diet hinged on someone
00:28:59.440else preparing your food for you right right you also have the effect of being observed as part of
00:29:06.440a health study right so people kind of straighten up and fly right in a bunch of different ways and
00:29:11.860you're motivated you know it's a short-term thing absolutely that's very different than doing it for
00:29:15.520the rest of your life yes you're having those like quasi celebrity experience of like kind of
00:29:20.220having a personal chef yeah are people asking you like what you eat today it's like dating someone
00:29:24.560when you put that in the real world and you ask folks to adhere to a low sodium diet
00:29:30.760the adherence rates out in the world are notoriously terrible a 2024 study of patients
00:29:39.840in heart failure found that even in that group, right, folks who have really high stakes,
00:29:46.980adherence to a low sodium diet was around 50%. Oh, wow. Right. It goes down from there with
00:29:53.100some studies of people with known hypertension, putting the real world adherence to a low sodium
00:30:00.260diet at 20%. Oh, wow. I'm assuming these are self reported as well. That's right. And as ever,
00:30:07.300the maintenance phase is the diet, right? Like pretty explicitly like pretty clearly the dash
00:30:18.160diet is designed to be followed for life. Yeah. If people are having this hard a time,
00:30:24.740even in short test periods, right? Yeah. It doesn't bode well for how that translates in
00:30:31.280terms of like a set of public practices. Right. I do think it's worth drawing the distinction
00:30:36.000between like the adherence rates to a low sodium diet versus adherence rates to other diets with
00:30:41.580something like keto. It's like, you know what you're supposed to do, but it's joyless. It's
00:30:46.500really repetitive. Whereas the adherence to the dash diet, it feels like it's more like you don't
00:30:52.180even know what you're supposed to be doing just because sodium is in so many things like saltiness
00:30:56.820of taste. As I learned an hour ago is not the same as having high sodium levels. I think the
00:31:02.780adherence stuff can oftentimes get boiled down to like a willpower issue. But this might really
00:31:07.440not be a willpower issue. It might just be like we live in a world where you go to a restaurant
00:31:11.220and there's like two days worth of sodium in your fucking salad dressing and you just didn't know.0.99
00:31:16.580Right. And you should have made the heart healthy choice of ordering a Baconator.0.99
00:31:20.680Right. Exactly. I think it was like an Anthony Bourdain episode where he mentioned kind of
00:31:25.740offhand that restaurant mashed potatoes are typically 50% butter. That's the Jean George
00:31:31.760ratio famously that he was like one pound of potato to one pound of butter yeah like restaurant
00:31:38.480food's hella good because part of it's like they don't care how much like sugar fat salt whatever
00:31:43.260they put in the food so one of the problems with the dash diet and with like kind of any low sodium
00:31:48.660diet recommendations is adherence rates right the other is that as we learn as the research sort of
00:31:58.220continues to unfold is that different people respond really differently to sodium as you can
00:32:05.420imagine following the release of the dash trials and the dash sodium trials there is kind of an
00:32:12.400explosion in sodium intake and heart health research because there is sort of this sense
00:32:18.560of like okay we're on to something yeah let's dig in let's figure out how those dash diets impact
00:32:24.880normatensive people people who don't have hypertension normatensive that is the term
00:32:31.100of art michael turfs would call that a slur because they think cisgender is a slur in the
00:32:37.680process of calling it a slur they become hypertensive so there is this giant wave of
00:32:46.040new salt research that hits in the 2000s and 2010s so we learn a bunch of things that sort of
00:32:54.000flesh out the picture and add a lot of light and shading to what we know yeah as a member of the
00:32:59.900normotensive community i need to know what i can take from this as you know i'm normotensive you've
00:33:05.500changed among other things we learned that not everyone has the experience of increased sodium
00:33:10.380intake increasing their blood pressure oh some people have kind of no real response to added
00:33:17.800sodium. Some people have the opposite reaction where they cut out salt and their blood pressure
00:33:24.140goes up. Your heart expands expecting salt. We don't really know how many people have each
00:33:31.580kind of response. And at this point, most of our research, and I think rightly so,1.00
00:33:36.500has been on people who have hypertension and heart disease because we're trying to stop those people
00:33:41.700from dying. All of that means that the public health question then starts to shift, right?
00:33:47.800If a significant portion of the population has hypertension and sodium reduction can help prevent heart attacks, strokes, and death, is it worth reorganizing our food systems to keep those folks alive?
00:39:31.900those stories are not really contextualized in a broader conversation like the one that we're
00:39:38.320having today that is like okay but let's look at who needs it the most right let's look at the scale
00:39:44.340of the problem here because it sounds like at this time the consensus is that if you have
00:39:49.600hypertension you should think about reducing your salt but if you don't have hypertension you don't
00:39:52.340really need to worry about it right and if you do have hypertension even if you're super motivated
00:39:56.380your adherence is going to be low because it's not really possible for you to hang yeah in our
00:40:00.980current food environment with a lower salt diet yeah so one group of people who are promoting the
00:40:06.460like salt is actually good for you hypothesis are journalists who are interested in a new kind of
00:40:12.300story the other is the actual salt industry the salt industry is that just like the packaged foods
00:40:19.960industry no there's big salt big salt exists there is their lobbying arm was called the salt
00:40:27.340institute so they named it so that they could they build themselves as quote the world's foremost
00:40:33.280experts on sodium so they tried to make themselves seem kind of like they were academics but they are
00:40:39.840straightforwardly a an industry lobby group they should have called it the sodium podium
00:40:44.560because we're standing there we're talking to you the salt institute was founded in 1914
00:40:49.420in the U.S. Their highest profile president was someone named Lori Roman. Lori Roman was someone
00:40:58.100who had already been in the media because she had already been in a political leadership position.
00:41:03.800She was the executive director of the American Legislative Exchange Council, ALEC. They opposed0.87
00:41:10.760divestment from apartheid in South Africa. They opposed, quote unquote, the homosexual movement0.99
00:41:17.180in the 80s and 90s they provided the model policy for sb 1070 uh better known as arizona's show me0.97
00:41:26.700your papers law the only thing she loves more than salt is black people not voting and in some cases0.99
00:41:32.340not living because they also uh fomented stand your ground laws voter id laws okay fuck it never1.00
00:41:39.540eat salt again i've heard enough so this is the thing that absolutely jokerfied me is i was like1.00
00:41:44.760okay so fuck these guys yeah fuck salt also one of the salt institute staffers uh someone named0.99
00:41:51.500morton satin which i think is very funny morton the salt guy was named morton even weirder that0.99
00:41:57.000he has a yellow raincoat on and an umbrella wherever he goes morton satin also wrote
00:42:01.660extensively for the weston a price foundation every one of our episodes leads to the same0.98
00:42:07.420fucking url the same people saying the same shit their advocacy efforts have generally been0.97
00:42:14.800completely and totally fucking unhinged right nearly every time a finding came out that0.99
00:42:21.540suggested unlimited salt might not be a great choice for everyone the salt institute would0.99
00:42:27.800fucking pop out of its trash can to advocate against it both in government and in media0.96
00:42:33.580Right. In 1996, as a for instance, the Salt Institute asked the FDA to repeal regulations that allowed some manufacturers to label things as low sodium if they were low sodium.0.99
00:42:46.800OK, they're like, they shouldn't be able to advertise that just cartoon evil.
00:42:50.840Yeah, they made a stink every time the dietary guidelines came out because each one includes some mention of sodium reduction.
00:42:58.960the arguments why they opposed it changed as public opinion changed right in 2016 for example
00:43:07.640laurie roman told the hill quote it's almost as preposterous as limiting water people are
00:43:15.220naturally wired to get the salt they need by lowering sodium levels in food you run the risk
00:43:22.340of increasing obesity what her thinking is people want a certain amount of salt so they'll just eat
00:43:28.640the volume of food that gets them that amount of salt okay so i'm holding the salt constant
00:43:34.660but just adjusting the amounts of food now i'm gonna eat three times as much if there's one
00:43:40.100third as much salt which you're like lady absolutely i don't think so and they also
00:43:45.460start to get some kind of salt curious pieces out of centrist outlets one of them comes from
00:43:53.180our friends at the atlantic and is titled the great salt debate colon so bad question mark
00:44:01.280question mark love those it seems like it's going to sort of like litigate the science
00:44:05.340of like wait a minute what do we know now about salt consumption and like how dangerous it is
00:44:10.100it's not that it is straightforwardly a profile of a guy who works for the salt institute oh
00:47:53.260That's like 40% of the way to the FDA goal, right?
00:47:57.440like that's like really really significant drop we're still way over it but it's it's getting
00:48:02.580there yeah in 2019 to sort of everyone's surprise the salt institute closed vaccinated
00:48:09.080they didn't really say why but there are a few things that could have played a role
00:48:14.840one is the national restaurant association which was a one-time ally of the salt institute
00:48:21.960starts proactively working with its members to like start to bring down the sodium levels
00:48:28.060and some of their dishes so that we have fewer of those there's 7 000 milligrams of salt in this0.92
00:48:34.180one fucking salad kind of thing i'll bet those emails are wild i bet they're none it's like the0.98
00:48:40.200psycho salt lobbyists and the psycho restaurant lobbyists like fighting in terms of where we are1.00
00:48:46.300today. There is some disagreement about the specific threshold, but most major health
00:48:52.920institutions in the U.S. agree that Americans on average consume more salt than we probably should.
00:49:00.680At the population level, it looks as if, again, all these measures are imperfect.
00:49:06.720It looks as if the U.S.'s per capita sodium intake is plateauing. Some measures show it
00:49:12.980reducing a tiny bit. But the good news is that even without those sort of salt interventions,
00:49:19.140which could accelerate this, deaths related to heart disease have been declining since the 1970s.
00:49:27.140Right. A lot has changed since the initial burst of publicity around salt consumption and heart
00:49:35.020health, right? During this time from 1969, the first sort of low sodium recommendation from the
00:49:42.480U.S. government to today. We have like dozens of treatments that have come onto the market that are
00:49:48.640way more effective. Well, that's the other thing. Earlier detection, the rollout of those little
00:49:53.280blood pressure machines and people taking their blood pressure at home. Yeah. New treatments have
00:49:58.020entered the market. The first ACE inhibitor was approved by the FDA in 1981. Those lower blood
00:50:05.280pressure about twice as much as salt reduction. Yeah. The same goes for SGLT2 inhibitors like
00:50:11.260jardians and farcega all right those uh received fda approval for the first time in the 2010s
00:50:17.660those medications work regardless of a patient's salt sensitivity and they don't have the same
00:50:24.040absolutely brutal adherence rates right like a lot of people can take a pill once a day the biggest
00:50:29.720barrier there is how fucking expensive they are right i think there's this this tendency to sort
00:50:35.180of link like it has to be lifestyle to this thing like salt equals strokes but it sounds like many0.92
00:50:40.280many many things contribute to it one of which appears to be salt but there's just lots of other
00:50:44.440stuff going on we've just gotten better at talking about a bunch of facets of it right and salt is
00:50:50.240one of many facets i do think this is the most it depends episode we've ever done such an it
00:50:56.980depends episode you're exactly right because like some people should reduce their salt some people0.69
00:51:00.540should increase it god and also i'm just like fucking processing this in real time i like0.94
00:51:04.340even if it's the case that you really need to reduce your salt consumption it's really fucking0.82
00:51:08.940hard to do that and there's more effective treatments yeah it's not like stop using light
00:51:14.220salad dressing it's like take a satin yeah i think that's right and also the take a statin stuff is
00:51:18.920like more effective right than an intervention that is very difficult to do with a very low
00:51:24.020adherence rate because of how difficult it is to do right two things can be true at once right
00:51:29.040it can be true that it doesn't make sense to instruct most patients to reduce their sodium
00:51:34.260intake right because of adherence because it's some people have the opposite effect right right
00:51:41.200but it can also be true that our food system has a fuck ton of sodium in it right and we should be
00:51:47.320able to control for that in ways that allow people to have the control that they need right so that
00:51:53.320if you are a person who needs to up your sodium you know that you're upping your sodium right and
00:51:57.880if you're one of the many many many people who needs to control their sodium intake or who might
00:52:02.180benefit from that then you also have the ability to do that right now yeah the food system cuts in
00:52:08.640favor of the presumably small number of people who need more sodium in their diet right i think this
00:52:16.140is a really interesting case of like there is a shit ton of really nuanced research there are
00:52:21.840folks who are inclined to pull that into definitive conclusions in any number of directions
00:52:28.000Yeah. And the truth is, this is like a really complex issue that on a public health level is going to take a lot of interventions from a lot of directions.
00:52:37.060And one of those is sodium in our food system.
00:52:39.980Although after the show comes out, everyone is swapping soy sauce for Baconators.