Maintenance Phase - February 02, 2021


Snake Oil

Topics
The Biggest Loser Dr. Oz

Episode Stats


Length

49 minutes

Words per minute

173.08

Word count

8,540

Sentence count

556

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

77

sentences flagged

Hate speech

34

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 Hello. Welcome to Maintenance Phase, a show about diet and wellness and occasionally the
00:00:17.720 things that are pretending to be those things. That was not well written. I'm sorry.
00:00:23.400 As long as you feel bad about it, that's what really matters.
00:00:27.100 We're off to a good start.
00:00:30.000 I am Michael Hobbs. I'm a reporter for the Huffington Post.
00:00:34.360 Hi, I'm Aubrey Gordon. I'm an author, a columnist and an essayist. And I'm a fat lady who loves
00:00:39.260 research. Yes.
00:00:40.440 You can also find us on Patreon. We're at patreon.com slash maintenance phase. That is also
00:00:45.560 linked in the show notes and on our website, which is maintenancephase.com. You can also find
00:00:50.680 t shirts from us in both of those locations that are available to you through T public. And if you
00:00:55.920 have designs of your own that you want to submit, you can do that too.
00:00:58.280 Oh, yes. It wouldn't be a millennial greeting if it didn't come with a bunch of URLs.
00:01:04.160 And today we're talking about snake oil, I guess, which I know nothing other than the fact that like
00:01:12.380 at three day intervals for weeks now, you have been texting me like I cannot wait to talk about
00:01:17.920 snake oil. And I'm like, don't spoil me. All I wanted to do was be like, here's a quote.
00:01:23.240 So here's the thing.
00:01:25.180 This is just all fascinating tidbits that I've been yelling at my friends and family.
00:01:30.560 Yes.
00:01:31.020 I have memorized one of these quotes because I love it so much.
00:01:35.180 Oh my God.
00:01:35.660 So you know nothing about snake oil, yeah?
00:01:37.420 I assume that it's the oil that you put on your pet snake to keep it hydrated.
00:01:43.900 But you know, you're familiar with the phrase snake oil salesman, yeah?
00:01:47.260 Yes.
00:01:47.600 This is why I'm looking forward to this episode.
00:01:49.320 There's a billion of these random idioms in English.
00:01:52.400 when you remember something you say it rings a bell and we all use these things but we have no
00:01:57.860 idea where any of them come from so my only knowledge of this is the phrase selling snake
00:02:03.860 oil which basically means just like selling fraudulent products but specifically about
00:02:09.920 sort of health and wellness yeah that's generally how it's used i will say this is for me personally
00:02:17.000 some of the most fascinating research I've done for this show to date.
00:02:20.560 Oh, my God.
00:02:21.000 I will also say I found out that snake oil was a real actual thing.
00:02:26.420 And in order to learn about sort of the history of snake oil,
00:02:29.800 we're going to take sort of this trip through the really bizarre history of like quackery.
00:02:35.680 Oh, good.
00:02:36.460 Yeah, I love it.
00:02:37.440 I will say as a heads up, we're not going to be talking about weight loss or calorie
00:02:41.140 counts or anything like that in this episode.
00:02:42.940 But it's pretty impossible to talk about this story without talking about some pretty
00:02:46.920 serious racism. Just once, I would like to look into one of these historical concepts or like
00:02:51.760 an existing institution. And it's like, no, racism, nowhere to be found. It's weird. Scanning
00:02:56.440 horizon, no racism. That never happens. This was a thing that was like, almost all white people,
00:03:01.880 and there was no racism involved is not a thing. Historically, like, generally speaking, not a
00:03:06.740 thing. Yes. So let's just like get into it, right? All right, let's dive in. So in order to talk
00:03:12.280 about snake oil salesmen, we have to talk about the history of medicine shows. Are you have you
00:03:16.900 ever heard of medicine shows mike no medicine shows oh my god are you kidding me this is gonna
00:03:22.480 be so much more fun than i thought it was gonna be shows so medicine shows are a tradition like
00:03:29.660 i know it from the american west but they apparently way predate the american west
00:03:36.700 they are not anything new they are not unique to the united states there are examples of medicine
00:03:41.840 shows dating back to ancient Egypt and Greece. Oh, wow. And basically, a medicine show is a
00:03:48.500 performance that will sell you a health product. Okay. Often in medicine shows, there will be like
00:03:56.760 some kind of feigned injury. Often these are all faked, right? That they'll be like,
00:04:03.280 let's bring somebody out of the audience who has a health issue. Ma'am, what's your health issue?
00:04:06.740 Oh, you have a limp? Drink this tonic. Oh, your limp is gone. Look at that.
00:04:10.140 So it's like an early infomercial.
00:04:12.860 Yeah, it's a it's a live version of like, there's got to be a better way.
00:04:18.280 Yeah.
00:04:18.920 So the American medicine show has its roots in medieval Europe.
00:04:22.920 At the height of the Roman Empire, there was a ton of work for entertainers for like jugglers and for tumblers and for commedia dell'arte.
00:04:33.580 But at the decline of the Roman Empire, that work kind of dried up, particularly because the Catholic Church went on to ban theater and circus.
00:04:45.740 Continuing the Catholic Church's tradition of just like anything that is fun, just define it as a sin and ban it.
00:04:51.960 Like no logic at all.
00:04:53.180 We hate fun.
00:04:54.240 Yeah.
00:04:54.620 so they banned theater and circus performances in 568 but performers kept working they would just
00:05:04.940 roll into town perform in public for as long as they could and when it looked like they were
00:05:10.760 going to get caught they would just pack up and move to the next town oh so it's like three card
00:05:15.060 monte or something these things that are sort of illegal but it takes a while for the cops to get
00:05:19.260 there, basically. During that time in Europe, these were especially popular in England and in
00:05:24.700 Italy, which is actually where we get the term charlatan. Oh, it is an Italian word, which God,
00:05:31.500 I don't speak Italian, but it looks like charlatano. Okay, which specifically in its early
00:05:37.120 use was used to refer to people who quote, sell salves or other drugs in public places,
00:05:43.440 pulls teeth and exhibits tricks of leisure domain.
00:05:48.440 I'm imagining the same person doing all three of those things.
00:05:51.540 So they do like a Cirque du Soleil performance
00:05:53.160 and then they pull a rabbit out of a hat
00:05:55.920 and then they take out one of your molars.
00:05:57.900 Yeah, so teeth pulling was like especially popular. 1.00
00:06:02.060 Fuck. 1.00
00:06:03.500 That people would just go watch someone in public 1.00
00:06:06.960 get a tooth pulled out of their head without any anesthesia.
00:06:11.060 Tooth extractions in public.
00:06:12.380 Like popular in medicine shows up until the 1950s, by the way. 0.99
00:06:16.880 Holy shit. 0.97
00:06:17.980 So these became so popular in England. 0.98
00:06:20.560 This is a fully a thousand years later in 1511 that England became the first nation to start banning, quote unquote, quackery.
00:06:29.920 Oh, that ban didn't work because, you know, that work continued to flourish for hundreds of years in large part because medicine itself was, and I quote,
00:06:39.600 a hotbed of medical malpractice in England at the time.
00:06:43.040 Well, right.
00:06:43.560 I mean, isn't there essentially no scientific method at this point?
00:06:46.800 Yeah, that's right.
00:06:47.460 It's not even that there aren't effective cures for things.
00:06:49.420 It's like there isn't even a process to determine whether something is an effective cure.
00:06:54.100 Yeah, that's right.
00:06:54.860 We don't know about germs.
00:06:56.560 Right.
00:06:56.800 We think that most things are related to the humors, right?
00:07:01.140 Right.
00:07:02.220 And even sort of quote-unquote legitimate medicine was sort of a crapshoot at the time,
00:07:06.800 and it was super expensive.
00:07:08.440 Right. 0.97
00:07:08.600 And there's basically no state capacity to provide health care.
00:07:12.360 I mean, this is like, there's no like hospital that you go to.
00:07:15.040 It's all just a bunch of like private vendors, basically, right?
00:07:18.120 That's exactly right.
00:07:19.140 And you go if you can pay them.
00:07:21.220 Yeah.
00:07:21.640 And when you go, like, even if it was state provided, it would be like, enjoy your leeches.
00:07:26.580 Right, right.
00:07:27.180 So medicine shows sort of throughout history have a few sort of common elements.
00:07:32.500 One, moon juice.
00:07:33.920 Two, sex dust.
00:07:36.360 one is it was always a lengthy show it was often an hour or two that sort of got people into the
00:07:44.420 mode of being entertained not sold to so it sort of wore people down right they'd be like oh i'm
00:07:49.580 just watching a play and then surprise by our health tonic right or whatever many medicine
00:07:55.180 shows also included some elements of what we later came to sort of define as freak shows 0.56
00:08:00.700 so they would have little people disabled people disfigured people fat people on display
00:08:08.080 and then a doctor would meet up with you at the end not actually a doctor but like a person who
00:08:14.700 said they were a doctor someone in a lab coat yeah yeah basically would meet up with you at
00:08:19.120 the end of the freak show and essentially say like do you want to end up like that no then
00:08:22.640 take our tonic right so when these sort of transition over to the u.s medicine shows are
00:08:28.740 also closely linked to Wild West shows. So like Buffalo Bill Cody. As it turns out, Wild West
00:08:35.260 shows were basically a way for white people to put indigenous people on display and charge other
00:08:41.340 white people to come look at them. Holy shit. Buffalo Bill Cody, probably the most famous 1.00
00:08:46.360 Wild West showman, got the idea from another favorite that we will talk about quite a bit
00:08:52.140 today pt barnum oh circus folks before pt barnum was in circus land he was in wild west shows
00:08:59.880 medicine shows and freak shows we sound like they're all sort of mixed up together they're
00:09:03.660 all kind of tied together at this point it's like the combination pizza hut taco bell
00:09:07.580 i mean it's grim right like here we go but these shows were massively popular buffalo bill's
00:09:15.160 largest reported show was in chicago and it drew 41 000 spectators holy shit in addition to all of 0.75
00:09:22.340 that there was often sort of a pretty spectacular display of what the medicine could do in medicine
00:09:28.320 shows this is sort of like over time right wherever you are and it was usually just a magic trick
00:09:33.260 someone would pretend to cut their arm and then heal it nice or they'd put an able-bodied person
00:09:38.640 in a wheelchair and then be like look they can walk and you're like well they could always walk 0.99
00:09:43.200 you just have them in a wheelchair. I mean, if they're doing this for 41,000 people,
00:09:46.840 a lot of those people are not sitting particularly close. Totally. So it's probably
00:09:49.760 pretty easy to dupe large crowds like this. Totally. With just like a couple of ketchup
00:09:54.480 packets. Yeah. So I would say the interesting thing about medicine shows is I would have
00:10:01.700 thought that the Enlightenment would have kind of killed them off. Yeah. They got more traction
00:10:06.400 during the Enlightenment. Oh, interesting. Not because of any new scientific findings that made
00:10:12.080 more effective products, but because more people were more conversant in more sort of
00:10:16.900 science-y words.
00:10:18.620 So it sort of legitimated medicine shows in folks' minds.
00:10:22.700 So it was like the first TED Talks were communicating to the public that medicine mattered and that
00:10:28.140 there were these bodily processes that they needed to manipulate to achieve better health.
00:10:31.960 And so instead of debunking the junk science, the junk science just adopted all these medical
00:10:36.300 scientific terms. 0.87
00:10:37.500 Yeah, here's a quote from one of the medicine shows.
00:10:40.060 one of the medicine showmen would say, a doctor will cut out your umbiculus and remove your
00:10:46.620 tweedium. 100% made up words that sound sort of vaguely sciencey. And people would be like,
00:10:53.560 he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. That's great. I was just saying this morning,
00:10:57.540 I spent too much time on the tweedium. So I agree. I agree with this. 0.60
00:11:02.380 Medicine shows in the US are a huge deal from about 1800 through to the 1950s.
00:11:08.300 I think it's important to note, and this was really surprising to me in this research, that medicine shows were sort of about the product, but mostly they were like the only entertainment that was available at the time, especially in small towns and rural communities.
00:11:22.720 Yeah, before TV, there's just not a lot to do in the evenings.
00:11:26.500 Totally. So you go see a medicine show and there are tumblers and there are actors and there's all this stuff, right? So medicine shows become sort of like the preeminent form of entertainment.
00:11:38.300 And were they free to attend?
00:11:40.440 They were often free to attend, yes.
00:11:42.380 And the trick was, like, you made your money on selling your stuff to people.
00:11:46.520 Yeah, it's like one of those timeshare conferences.
00:11:49.220 Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:50.520 This is where we get into P.T. Barnum, who is, like, the biggest sort of popularizer of medicine shows in the U.S.
00:11:58.860 The Ray Kroc of circuses.
00:12:01.280 Yes, absolutely.
00:12:02.620 It's, like, a pretty perfect comparison.
00:12:05.340 So I would say in a lot of ways, he's the archetypal sort of medicine showman and was sort of like the velvet underground of medicine showman.
00:12:14.560 Not everybody saw him, but everyone who did started their own medicine show.
00:12:19.100 So he ran all of this stuff, right?
00:12:21.840 Freak shows, Wild West shows, all of that kind of stuff.
00:12:24.420 His Wild West shows were immensely popular.
00:12:27.520 In those Wild West shows, white people could come see indigenous people on display.
00:12:31.620 But while he was running those Wild West shows, he publicly wrote pages and pages and pages of like wildly racist screeds about the very tribal members who were making him rich. 1.00
00:12:46.180 Oh, shit. 1.00
00:12:46.620 It made him impossibly rich. He was so rich. 1.00
00:12:50.540 See, I would describe him using an obscure Italian word, charlatano. I don't know if you know about that. I've known about it for almost six minutes now.
00:12:58.780 I will say his early medicine show, he sort of pulled it together with a partner
00:13:04.060 who was from Germany. They sold bear grease, which they said would regrow hair.
00:13:09.640 Okay, so bear grease sounds like something like snake oil, where it sounds pretty expensive to
00:13:15.480 gather. I don't know what the bear grease was actually made out of, but it sounds like a lot
00:13:19.280 of trouble. What was the actual bear grease?
00:13:21.500 It was just Vaseline.
00:13:22.780 Okay, one thing that's interesting to me, the contrast between P.T. Barnum level scamming
00:13:28.060 and what's going on now with like moon juice and wellness influencers etc is that he knew that he 0.98
00:13:33.980 was full of shit whereas i feel like what makes it harder now is a lot of the wellness influencers 0.97
00:13:38.380 actually believe it like they think that taking this pill is gonna like make you better at having 1.00
00:13:43.980 dusty sex or whatever i mean i think the trick is there were definitely some medicine showmen who 0.96
00:13:48.080 were like this is garbage and i'm making money on a con and there were also some who legit thought 0.95
00:13:52.300 they were onto something so i think it is sort of similar to today oh it was also really popular 0.87
00:13:58.000 in part because medicine shows were mostly dominated by men so in the 1800s live entertainment
00:14:05.440 was seen as this sort of feminine pursuit okay the arts were sort of something for women 1.00
00:14:12.200 but also women who were professional actors were associated with sex work 1.00
00:14:17.760 because the idea is that you can just sort of be bought by anyone who can pay the price
00:14:23.980 it's this really weird runoff stigma god it's like the catholic church it's just like here's
00:14:29.400 a fun thing let's fuck it up let's ruin it for everybody do you want to go to a play or do you
00:14:35.740 want to go to hell like those are your choices yeah so part of the reason that medicine shows 0.88
00:14:42.640 were so popular this is in the 1700s right late 1700s was in part because medicine at the time
00:14:50.440 wasn't regulated at all. So in the US, there were not really sort of structures for medical
00:14:59.300 education, for certification, for any of that kind of stuff. There were just a bunch of people who
00:15:04.540 were just like, yeah, I'm a physician. But it's not until 1846 that the American Medical Association
00:15:11.540 forms. In 1893, the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine was founded and it was the first
00:15:18.660 medical school to require a college degree for entrance. Prior to that, many doctors weren't
00:15:24.160 literate. Hey doc, what does it say on the label? Eh, I don't know. But listen, Mike, we're going
00:15:28.320 to talk about this in a minute. There weren't labels. Oh, what? There weren't labels on these
00:15:33.440 products. There were labels that were like, here's what it is, but they didn't tell you what was in
00:15:36.260 it. What? It's just like a liquid in a mason jar and you're buying it at one of these fairs and
00:15:40.540 that's it? Yeah. And it's like, here it is. Oh shit. Treatment. Like medical treatment could
00:15:45.160 come from any number of sources, right? People were like, I don't know, I could go to the doctor,
00:15:49.200 but like they're expensive and not good. Or I could like mix up this like herbal tonic in my
00:15:54.940 kitchen. Right, right. Like anybody who offered a solution, like it was all sort of equally good.
00:15:59.520 There is a book that I relied on heavily for this research by Ann Anderson called Snake Oil,
00:16:06.320 Hustlers and Ham Bones. Ann Anderson, the author, calls treatments at the time, quote,
00:16:12.360 a mix of superstition, apocrypha, case histories, and anything that seemed like a good idea at the
00:16:18.420 time. It is infomercials. Yeah, totally. But like everything's an infomercial, right? Yeah.
00:16:24.360 Anyone anywhere can tell you this will work well for you. And you'll just kind of believe it
00:16:29.520 because there's not like a source to check it against, right? Right. Also, it's not like the
00:16:33.460 population is particularly literate and particularly well versed in sort of science, medicine, history,
00:16:39.060 literate, like the education system at this time was not particularly well developed either.
00:16:43.220 Yeah, that's exactly right. For that same reason at this time, doctors are not especially well
00:16:48.280 respected. Many of them, particularly in the West and in more rural areas, actually had to have
00:16:54.380 multiple jobs. Oh, wow. So they would be like, I'm a doctor and a blacksmith, or I'm like a doctor
00:16:59.540 and a farmer because there just isn't like enough business, right? So the doctors were the original
00:17:03.720 gig workers. That's not what I was expecting. This is the quote that I memorized. I love it
00:17:10.660 so much. Tell me, close your eyes and tell it to me. So this is from Snake Oil Hustlers and
00:17:17.540 Hambones. The Midwest harbored quacks as manure does flies. Indiana was called, quote, a sinkhole 1.00
00:17:25.480 in the medical practice, and Ohio, quote, a paradise for the incompetent. It was a freewheeling
00:17:32.780 medical environment in which the medicine showman with his tall silk hat and folksy manner could
00:17:37.880 operate unrestrained dude keep going let's roast all 50 states what else you got illinois i love
00:17:45.600 the idea of just like senselessly dunking on a state and i told my brother i was like i kind of
00:17:51.200 want a t-shirt that says ohio a paradise for the incompetent and he was like it should be their
00:17:55.180 license plate i mean it's better than those states that are terrible for incompetent people
00:18:01.740 We are incompetent inclusive. 0.68
00:18:03.460 Come, incompetence. 0.72
00:18:04.420 Join us.
00:18:05.440 So, again, like, at this time, doctors are, like, not especially good at what they do.
00:18:10.900 There's this Dr. Benjamin Rush.
00:18:13.080 He treated everything by bleeding his patients, right?
00:18:16.400 Oh, yeah.
00:18:17.400 Those sort of humor-based whatever, right?
00:18:20.280 Yeah.
00:18:20.720 So, in the process of bleeding them, he killed a lot of his patients.
00:18:24.340 And this became, like, especially bad news during a yellow fever outbreak.
00:18:30.540 Oh.
00:18:31.500 Yellow fever spread by mosquitoes.
00:18:34.240 Yeah.
00:18:34.880 So this dude is bleeding patients into open containers.
00:18:38.540 These are patients who have yellow fever.
00:18:41.520 Mosquitoes are swarming, drinking that blood.
00:18:44.060 Like, it's essentially like a super spreader event.
00:18:46.120 People need blood to live.
00:18:47.600 Don't take it away from people.
00:18:48.980 That yellow fever outbreak ended up killing 10% of the population of Philadelphia.
00:18:54.620 What?
00:18:55.600 So this was like not an insignificant super spreader event.
00:18:59.520 Man, you've got competition, Ohio. 0.85
00:19:01.500 Philadelphia, a paradise for the incompetent. 0.98
00:19:06.460 So in addition to medicine being garbage, nobody knew anything about health and sanitation 0.99
00:19:13.080 at the time.
00:19:14.380 This is a pretty lengthy quote from Snake Oil, Hand Bones and Hustlers.
00:19:21.020 It's my next to memorize from this book.
00:19:23.580 Close your eyes.
00:19:24.160 I'll only listen if you close your eyes.
00:19:26.080 Otherwise, I'm leaving.
00:19:26.920 Too bad, because I can't.
00:19:27.840 ignorance of the causes of disease and workings of the body made for some appalling conditions
00:19:33.600 there was no sanitation because there was no perceived need for it sewage was dumped into
00:19:39.640 the streets sometimes right onto the heads of unfortunate passers-by what didn't flow into
00:19:45.320 the gutters was consumed by swine which were in turn consumed by people nice on farms outhouses
00:19:51.860 were located near wells, and clothing was caked with manure and worn until it fell apart.
00:19:57.860 Even the beds of the wealthy were infested with vermin. Bathing was considered an eccentricity.
00:20:03.980 Night air was thought to be poison. Almost everyone, even children, drank oceans of liquor.
00:20:11.520 Sickness was thought to be unavoidable. Even when vaccinations were available,
00:20:15.880 many farmers rejected them as contrary to the will of God. 0.88
00:20:19.560 It is amazing that people manage to have sex in these conditions. 0.53
00:20:23.700 This was a time when the birth rate in America was like nine children for every woman, which means people are having sex at least nine times in their like vermin infested, poop caked coats. 0.68
00:20:36.380 No showers afterwards. 0.70
00:20:38.500 Like it is amazing to me constantly that the human race has like made it this far.
00:20:43.060 It's really gross. 0.62
00:20:44.680 Ugh.
00:20:45.380 Imagine their breath.
00:20:46.720 You have to kiss somebody with that breath.
00:20:49.100 Ugh.
00:20:49.560 It's really upsetting.
00:20:50.880 Yeah, dude.
00:20:51.480 So you can see how like in this time, right, when like just everything related to health and wellness is pretty broken, you can understand how somebody like rolling into town who sounds confident and makes definitive claims that like their thing will help you, you'd be like, yeah, sure, sign me up.
00:21:09.940 Or I think I might be.
00:21:11.540 You're also just drowning and people just like saying stuff.
00:21:14.260 I feel like the relationship to sort of truth and falsehood back then was very different as well.
00:21:18.400 Absolutely.
00:21:19.620 So medicine shows would also employ all kinds of like extremely garbage tactics to sell their stuff.
00:21:26.420 So, for example, one medicine showman who was pretty famous at the time, Thomas Kelly, would set up his stage and line the edge of the stage with jars of pickled tapeworms.
00:21:39.260 Okay.
00:21:39.660 And then would sort of like get up on stage and describe a bunch of vague symptoms, right?
00:21:43.980 We hear this in like supplement companies that are advertised on TV do this, where they're
00:21:48.640 like, do you feel tired sometimes?
00:21:50.860 Are you not always confident?
00:21:52.620 And he would say all those things are the result of having a tapeworm.
00:21:56.080 Ooh.
00:21:56.600 The tapeworm will sort of kill you unless you buy his shamrock tapeworm remover for $7,
00:22:05.620 which is $190 in today's money.
00:22:09.520 frankly jokes on everyone because given the sanitation at the time a lot of people really
00:22:14.200 did have tapeworms right yeah what was what was he actually selling do we know this one we don't
00:22:19.760 particularly know i will say a lot of the tonics would have a little bit of turpentine in them oh
00:22:25.840 which is what would give them like it would make it smell like medicine that's like the
00:22:30.420 dandruff shampoo companies that added something to their shampoos to make it tingle a little bit
00:22:37.240 Really?
00:22:37.980 Because otherwise people didn't think that it was working.
00:22:40.820 Uh-huh.
00:22:41.400 And the thing that sort of cures dandruff has nothing to do with the tingling, but it's like it has to be a little bit unpleasant.
00:22:47.760 Otherwise people think that it must be fake.
00:22:49.780 Oh, yeah.
00:22:50.340 So there was one of the things that Medicine Showman would sell was something called an electric belt or an electricity belt.
00:22:56.500 Okay.
00:22:56.940 Which was basically just like a belt that on the inside had glue and capsicum.
00:23:01.740 Oh.
00:23:01.960 Which is what makes peppers spicy.
00:23:04.160 Yeah.
00:23:04.320 So you would put it on and it would feel like spicy and tingly on your skin.
00:23:09.040 And you'd be like, that means it's working.
00:23:10.380 Must be working.
00:23:11.020 Yeah.
00:23:11.500 But all it was doing was like putting hot peppers on your skin.
00:23:14.580 Right.
00:23:15.040 So Thomas Kelly started off the tapeworm remover stuff.
00:23:18.280 But many other medicine showmen sort of refined that approach.
00:23:22.000 So they would sell people these pills that were in like gelatin capsules, right?
00:23:26.220 Like any gel cap you would take now.
00:23:28.760 But inside the pill was tightly wound up string.
00:23:33.760 Do you see where this is going, Mike?
00:23:36.420 Oh, so people would like poop out a little string?
00:23:39.320 Yep. 1.00
00:23:39.900 Shut up. 1.00
00:23:40.940 And then they'd come back to the medicine show and be like, this was amazing. 1.00
00:23:44.400 I didn't think I had a tapeworm.
00:23:45.680 And then I took this pill and like, I had totally had a tapeworm.
00:23:48.820 Oh, where is the Better Business Bureau?
00:23:51.280 Scooping at the wheel.
00:23:53.020 There's no Better Business Bureau, bud.
00:23:55.600 So this became such a popular approach that there's like a whole business,
00:23:59.540 like a factory based in kansas city that just makes artificial tapeworms there was another
00:24:05.320 medicine showman who said that he could cure deafness oh no he worked almost exclusively
00:24:10.480 in rural communities and it was basically just like people had such a buildup of earwax oh yeah
00:24:16.420 so he would like be on stage and be like this person is deaf or they're hard of hearing
00:24:20.300 check out my product now they can hear whoa yeah but at least he's actually providing a 0.97
00:24:25.440 fucking service yeah totally that's the first one where it's like sure man you used to have 0.93
00:24:29.520 earwax in your ears and now you don't yeah exactly when we talk about medicine shows and when we talk 0.99
00:24:33.940 about what we now refer to as snake oil what we're actually talking about is patent medicine
00:24:38.040 oh okay so patent medicine was like very big in the 1800s and like early 1900s essentially like
00:24:45.980 anyone could file a patent or trademark for anything and sell it as a cure for anything
00:24:51.760 else. Oh, it's like fucking vitamin supplements now. Yeah, there's no regulation on selling or 0.99
00:24:57.400 advertising medicine. Great. Patent medicines were incredibly heavily advertised and provided
00:25:03.940 the blueprint for a bunch of like advertising tactics that we see now. In 1847, 2000 newspapers
00:25:10.920 ran 11 million patent medicine ads. Whoa. By the Civil War, patent medicine ads were half of all
00:25:18.600 of the newspaper advertising revenue in the country.
00:25:21.620 No way.
00:25:22.720 So it's like perfume ads in Vogue.
00:25:25.520 Those little flaps that you can pull off.
00:25:28.660 Patent medicine was pitched at medicine shows,
00:25:31.760 but also on street corners out of these like suitcases on tripods.
00:25:36.740 And what that allowed medicine showmen to do
00:25:39.980 is show how limited the quantity was.
00:25:43.400 They'd be like, it's going fast.
00:25:45.020 You got to get it now. 0.99
00:25:45.900 Like a fucking Jeffree Star makeup palette. 0.99
00:25:48.600 We're 100% still doing this now. 0.99
00:25:50.980 Limited editions.
00:25:52.700 I have to say, I'm very surprised to hear you tapped into Jeffree Star makeup palettes.
00:25:58.780 How dare you?
00:26:00.900 Of course I'm tapped into that.
00:26:05.780 They also use this tactic of sort of negging consumers.
00:26:09.960 Like, it's very Mystery the Pickup Artist.
00:26:12.480 Where, like, they would talk to someone and they'd be like, oh, you probably can't afford this.
00:26:16.000 And then the person would be like, I can't afford it.
00:26:17.800 Here's my money.
00:26:18.440 It's like, yeah, this sports car is only for people that, like, have a sense of danger, but you wouldn't be interested in that.
00:26:23.980 That's exactly right.
00:26:25.980 Patent medicines, if we talk about sort of what was in patent medicines, some of them were herbal, but most of them are substances that are pretty heavily regulated today.
00:26:38.380 Okay.
00:26:38.640 There was something called Mrs. Winslow's Soothing Syrup that was like a cough syrup advertised to kids.
00:26:45.400 Oh, no.
00:26:46.020 I forgot about kids.
00:26:46.920 That was liquid heroin.
00:26:49.840 No way.
00:26:51.120 100% my dude.
00:26:53.000 Dude, lit. 1.00
00:26:54.500 These kids are getting fucked. 1.00
00:26:55.380 It's like train spotting. 1.00
00:26:57.000 Those kids are just like lying down, just like tripping balls. 0.98
00:27:00.560 But with babies. 0.99
00:27:02.440 Give me another juice box, man.
00:27:05.160 Hell yeah. 1.00
00:27:06.360 It's so fucked. 1.00
00:27:08.240 So like, here were some other ones. 1.00
00:27:10.280 Seth Arnold's cough killer was morphine.
00:27:13.240 Nice.
00:27:14.060 Farnie's teething syrup.
00:27:15.900 Teething syrup.
00:27:16.920 was morphine and chloroform.
00:27:19.580 Ugh.
00:27:20.320 Jane's expectorant was opium. 1.00
00:27:22.900 How were people getting this fucking heroin? 0.99
00:27:25.040 Like, where do you buy heroin in the 1840s? 1.00
00:27:27.780 Is it just around?
00:27:28.940 I mean, so listen, if there's no medical regulation,
00:27:32.680 there's definitely no DEA.
00:27:34.660 Yeah.
00:27:35.600 Right?
00:27:35.900 Like, none of this has been scheduled.
00:27:37.700 Yeah.
00:27:38.100 There's not even requirements that you label medication at this point.
00:27:41.440 So I would imagine if you wanted some heroin,
00:27:43.600 you could probably just go get some heroin.
00:27:45.440 At, like, the heroin store.
00:27:46.440 This was really, really fascinating to me. There are a bunch of things that we use today that started as patent medicines. Listerine, patent medicine, founded in 1879. Bayer aspirin, patent medicine, 1899. Milk of Magnesia, 1880. Exlax, 1905. And Richardson's croup and pneumonia cure salve, created in the 1890s, it's now known as Vicks VapoRub.
00:28:14.140 They made Vicks VapoRub in the 1890s?
00:28:17.420 It kind of feels like it, doesn't it?
00:28:18.940 Yeah, a little bit.
00:28:22.500 I would say it's also worth noting that at this time, because trust in medicine is so low, because these are being advertised so heavily, right, there's sort of this opening for thinking and talking about different kinds of medicine, right?
00:28:37.180 Like, more white folks in the U.S. seemed to be at the time more open to cures and treatments that were developed by people who weren't white, particularly indigenous remedies at the time.
00:28:51.120 So, like, tribal members in sort of what is now the U.S. had, like, developed these remedies that were often more effective than white folks' remedies, right?
00:29:00.020 Right. This goes back to our conceptions now of like Chinese medicine and this sort of othering of exotic cultures that know things that we don't. But there's no real interest in those cultures or where that medicine comes from or anything else. It's just like this very superficial engagement.
00:29:16.460 Yeah, absolutely. So this is sort of like, there's this tie between like, popular conceptions of indigenous medicine start to sort of be on the come up as the genocide of indigenous peoples starts to be sort of like more and more completed, right?
00:29:31.820 As indigenous people become less of a perceived threat to white folks, they're sort of like,
00:29:36.720 oh, look at these native people who are sort of at one with nature, and they've figured
00:29:40.840 all these things out, right?
00:29:43.000 And a bunch of white folks start referring to themselves as like Indian medicine experts. 1.00
00:29:49.820 Oh, shit. 1.00
00:29:50.560 It's so dark, my dude. 1.00
00:29:52.820 Is it too late to cancel those people?
00:29:54.740 Like 150 years later?
00:29:56.300 I mean, I kind of feel like life expectancy canceled those people. 0.72
00:29:59.660 Yeah, that's true. 1.00
00:29:59.980 There was a guy named John Derringer who called himself Indian John.
00:30:04.680 There was a company called the Kickapoo Indian Medicine Company. 0.61
00:30:08.740 And the owners of the Kickapoo Indian Medicine Company were unsurprisingly like two white dudes.
00:30:14.140 They chose the name Kickapoo Indian Medicine Company because they thought it sounded funny. 0.58
00:30:20.520 Oh, God. Really?
00:30:22.280 Uh-huh.
00:30:22.920 There's something so interesting about how you're able to fetishize a culture and also
00:30:28.000 attempt to destroy it at the same time. 0.55
00:30:29.800 This is sort of the beginnings of a lot of how non-Indigenous people talk about Indigenous folks in the U.S. now, which is like, they're gone now, and we can revere them. 0.99
00:30:42.140 These medicine shows, and particularly Indian medicine companies, there was an Oregon Indian medicine company, side note, the first company of record to offer a money-back guarantee. 1.00
00:30:54.420 That seems like a marketing ploy, though, because if they're moving on to a different town, how would you even take them up on that?
00:30:59.880 Well, here's the funny thing.
00:31:01.300 Are you ready?
00:31:02.180 Ooh, do it.
00:31:02.540 The Oregon Indian Medicine Company created this, their sort of tonic.
00:31:08.120 It was called Katonka, and they said it was established by the Umatilla tribe in the woods of Oregon, all of that kind of stuff.
00:31:16.460 It wasn't.
00:31:17.000 It was made by a drug firm in Pennsylvania and shipped west. 0.94
00:31:21.760 It was like so deeply not anything indigenous.
00:31:25.040 They sort of launched their business in the spring and traveled all over Oregon to sell
00:31:30.560 it, but didn't count on Northwest rain.
00:31:33.660 So their wagons got stuck in the mud.
00:31:36.680 For like the rest of the year.
00:31:38.740 No one told you about rain in the Northwest?
00:31:41.340 They just like didn't even account for it.
00:31:43.820 Nobody's ever seen Sleepless in Seattle.
00:31:45.820 Nine out of 10 days.
00:31:47.060 Anyway, it's just fascinating to me that like all of these sort of templates for advertising,
00:31:51.080 right that you sort of stoke fear so that you can sell something you sort of like come up with like
00:31:55.940 branding is a big thing that comes out of this because there are so many different ones that
00:31:59.980 people have to know your brand as like the one that works yeah it is dispiriting that we just
00:32:05.340 keep doing the same thing over and over again and like nothing changes we just happen to have
00:32:09.620 forgotten about the last wave of these crazes absolutely so this is actually where we come to
00:32:15.640 actual snake oil hey and this is also where it gets a little bit you're wrong about oh uh-huh
00:32:23.120 my favorite unlike other patent medicines snake oil was a real thing and it actually worked
00:32:29.880 shut up i will not mike that's this is the twist of this episode snake oil was real
00:32:36.400 it was real and it worked it was real and it worked 0.53
00:32:40.060 i love it so this is what i was like when i found that out this is like one of the first things
00:32:47.380 that i sort of discovered in research for this episode that's when i started texting you was
00:32:52.040 like this is gonna be so good this is absurd it's totally absurd so here's the story in the 1800s
00:32:59.720 the u.s has one of its largest public works projects ever which is the building of the
00:33:04.580 Transcontinental Railroad, right? And it's one that was primarily powered by immigrant railroad
00:33:10.780 workers, most of whom were from China. These Chinese immigrant workers are coming in doing 0.99
00:33:16.760 this hard manual labor of building a railroad. So they have a lot of aches and pains. And to soothe
00:33:24.040 that they used snake oil, which is like a traditional Chinese remedy. It was a concentrate
00:33:30.320 that was made by boiling a chinese water snake what uh-huh and then you would skim off the fat
00:33:39.400 that had collected off of the top and that's your snake oil so it's actual snake oil it's oil from
00:33:45.940 a snake no fucking way i thought it was just gonna be like the bear grease thing where it's like
00:33:51.980 you just pick up some like dirt from the ground or something and you're like oh it's snake dust 0.99
00:33:56.240 or whatever so white people saw that this worked right i think overwhelmingly like the white bosses
00:34:02.480 of chinese railroad workers saw that this really worked they may have tried it out and they saw
00:34:08.620 an opportunity to make a bunch of money on american snake oil because they were like holy 0.98
00:34:12.300 shit this thing works nothing works right now everything about health is garbage so it's like 0.98
00:34:16.300 an early painkiller it's like it's like tylenol it's kind of like icy hot you rub it on yourself 0.99
00:34:21.240 you don't drink it. The challenge is these guys want to make American snake oil. America doesn't
00:34:27.460 have the Chinese water snake. Yeah, we don't have a lot of Chinese water snakes around.
00:34:30.700 So they just start boiling different kinds of snakes. And they're like, this is it.
00:34:36.120 This is a quote from a piece in True West magazine. There is a guy that is the reason
00:34:43.260 that we have the term snake oil salesman. Oh, quote, perhaps the best known of these snake
00:34:48.360 oil salesman was clark stanley the self-proclaimed rattlesnake king a former cowboy who claimed he
00:34:55.180 had been tutored by hopi medicine men in arizona oh god he deceptively used mineral oil to make
00:35:01.440 his quote-unquote snake oil potent making a show out of his treatment stanley pulled a rattler out
00:35:08.020 of a sack slid it open and dropped the snake into a pot of boiling water so people would sort of
00:35:13.880 watch him like wrestle a rattlesnake, cut its belly, and then boil it. Like, that's a pretty
00:35:20.680 amazing show if you don't have TV. Yeah. Yeah. Stanley's snake oil was later seized by the US
00:35:27.680 government and they studied it and they found out that it was just mineral oil, red pepper,
00:35:32.700 which sort of warms your skin, right? It's capsicum, like we were talking about earlier.
00:35:37.240 Turpentine, so it smelled like medicine, and about 1% fatty oil, which they think came from
00:35:42.440 cows oh they're like there's not even snake in the snake oil so like a the snake he's claiming
00:35:47.680 it is doesn't work and b that snake isn't even in it so snake oil salesman means counterfeit
00:35:54.040 snake oil yeah it's not that snake oil is counterfeit medicine yeah absolutely wow it'd
00:35:59.560 be like if you made fake aspirin and people were like that guy's a real aspirin salesman 0.81
00:36:03.260 no aspirin's good yeah the issue is that it's fake it wasn't until 1989 that white people
00:36:12.160 figured out why snake oil worked they found that it was rich in a particular omega-3 fatty acid
00:36:20.300 oh no don't reinforce the omega-3 people aubrey stop there they're already talking about that
00:36:27.960 stuff too much so basically like salmon right is sort of our like classic best example of like
00:36:35.060 where to get omega-3s salmon has a maximum of 18 of this particular fatty acid this particular
00:36:42.280 omega-3 snake oil on average had 20 okay so this is like extremely potent so when you take an omega-3
00:36:51.560 supplement from the store you're literally taking snake oil kind of yeah you're taking the active
00:36:57.560 ingredient wow well the only purpose of podcast is to give people ammunition to go well actually
00:37:03.840 when they're at dinner parties and this is the ultimate the next time someone says like elon 0.83
00:37:08.400 musk is selling snake oil you'll be like well actually yeah snake oil fucking works but elon 0.99
00:37:14.020 musk is still trash we just made you 100 more insufferable you're welcome this is our goal 1.00
00:37:19.900 This is our product. This is what we sell. So like, of course, most of the sort of snake oil 0.99
00:37:29.780 salesmen at the time weren't selling this product, right? Yes. Most of them were selling
00:37:34.140 the rattlesnake variety. Some of them were selling the Clark Stanley version, which is just like,
00:37:38.460 I guess some cow fat in a bottle. It's also an interesting metaphor for what happens to these
00:37:43.900 sort of exotic indigenous medicinal treatments that end up coming to the West, right? Because
00:37:49.500 it's like oh snake oil is a real thing you boil the snake and then you rub it on yourself but then 0.98
00:37:53.820 they take it to the u.s where there's no chinese water snakes and it doesn't work anymore because
00:37:58.160 there's specific chemical properties of those particular snakes in that particular place
00:38:02.040 and you can't just like airlift it to this new context and have it work exactly the same way
00:38:07.400 yeah we're referencing moon juice a lot here because this feels very moon juicy yeah oh this
00:38:13.000 thing works so i'm just gonna distill these ingredients down without regard to where they
00:38:17.740 come from without regard to what makes them work. Right. Just boil a snake. It doesn't matter what
00:38:22.140 kind of snake. It doesn't matter where you found the snake. It doesn't matter how long you boil
00:38:25.100 it for. Find a snake, boil it, medicine, boom. Nailed it. Yeah. The last thing I wanted to talk
00:38:30.000 about with snake oil in particular is how it became sort of our shorthand for this kind of
00:38:37.540 hucksterism, right? Yes. To talk about that, we have to talk about sort of the decline and fall
00:38:42.500 of patent medicines and of medicine shows, right?
00:38:45.600 Oh, thank God.
00:38:46.180 Things really start to change
00:38:47.800 in terms of the sort of medical landscape of the US
00:38:50.540 around the turn of the century.
00:38:52.300 There is way more regulation
00:38:54.920 of formally educated and certified doctors, right?
00:38:58.560 There are now,
00:38:59.320 we now have the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.
00:39:01.580 We now have these sort of like places
00:39:03.280 that have requirements for entry
00:39:05.040 and require you to like pass exams in order to graduate.
00:39:08.920 More and more of those trained doctors
00:39:11.260 subscribe to this emerging germ theory about how diseases spread. There is sort of this emerging
00:39:17.560 alignment amongst large groups of trained doctors, right? There starts to become some sort of like
00:39:23.260 common knowledge amongst doctors. And those doctors are increasingly sort of skeptical
00:39:28.660 of patent medicines. In 1892, the Senate passes the first federal legislation to regulate medicine
00:39:36.460 in any way oh thank god but it fails in the house oh so like they don't pass it because
00:39:43.500 patent medicine sellers have formed the proprietary association and they're lobbying 0.96
00:39:49.700 really hard this is why we can't get rid of fucking scam phone calls yep and use car dealerships 0.97
00:39:57.440 and the penny and daylight savings time there's always some like little tiny interest group that 0.96
00:40:03.160 fucking ruins it for everybody yeah and they're the people who literally profit off of yes always
00:40:07.640 in 1905 this is like the beginning of the end collier's magazine a huge magazine at the time 0.99
00:40:16.460 publishes a series of exposés about patent medicines and the series is called the great
00:40:23.160 american fraud hell yeah right remember when people wrote magazine articles and then stuff
00:40:28.100 changed imagine ultimately the collier's piece is published in 1905 by 1906 congress passes the pure
00:40:37.520 food and drug act and it's signed into law by teddy roosevelt the pure food and drug act
00:40:43.460 quote prohibited the sale of misbranded or adulterated food and drugs in interstate commerce
00:40:49.580 it didn't prohibit adding narcotics to children's medicine okay but it did say that if there was
00:40:57.220 anything addictive in your in your medicine you had to list it on the label okay so basically it
00:41:03.160 was like if there's heroin in this you have to say there's heroin in it giving kids heroin is fine
00:41:07.240 but just tell them first yeah that's right getting your pjs little man interestingly it isn't until
00:41:12.880 1917 that clark stanley who's the rattlesnake king like the actual snake oil salesman 0.99
00:41:18.960 is prosecuted under the pure food and drug act for selling garbage fake shit next stop elon musk 0.99
00:41:26.300 do it. That sort of is the beginning of the end, right? This becomes like a very watched 0.99
00:41:32.440 trial, becomes covered heavily in the media, all of this kind of stuff. By the time the 1930s
00:41:37.940 roll around, drugstores are now sort of more common, right? They're more accessible to folks
00:41:42.980 and they're in more places. And that allows for this sort of centralized local source for drugs,
00:41:48.420 which also allowed for more sort of regulation and also more like word of mouth, right?
00:41:53.800 Right. Repeat customers. You finally have an incentive to actually sell people things that
00:41:58.020 work. Yeah. And the sort of fake urgency of a medicine show doesn't quite work in the same
00:42:03.020 way, right? If you're like, buy it now, it's your only chance. Like that doesn't work when you're
00:42:08.120 like, no, there's a Walgreens. Yeah. They also have aspirin. And the 17 year olds working behind
00:42:13.480 the counter can't give like an hour long presentation where they're killing a
00:42:16.320 rattlesnake in front of you for every customer. Unfortunately. At this time, movie theaters also
00:42:21.480 start to sort of pop up so people can find better entertainment than like watching a live tooth
00:42:28.260 extraction right at a medicine show. I'm also assuming that there's also like mass literacy
00:42:33.280 at this time and the educational system is also improving. I'm imagining people are getting some
00:42:37.600 messages about that too. Oh, shit. Mike, I left out one of the most important parts about the 1.00
00:42:42.500 Pure Food and Drug Act. It mandated the creation of the FDA. Oh, our old friend, the FDA. This is
00:42:49.000 how we got the FDA. It's like a superhero origin story. This is the bitten by a radioactive spider
00:42:55.060 of regulatory agencies. It wasn't until 1938 that Congress sort of got involved with the next layer
00:43:01.320 of regulation. That was called the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act of 1938. It required manufacturers
00:43:07.620 to, quote, list all active ingredients, make only supportable claims, refrain from creating
00:43:14.020 medicines for life-threatening illnesses, and reveal all relevant facts.
00:43:19.060 Basic stuff.
00:43:19.980 Basic stuff that we rely on today.
00:43:22.240 I'm sure the patent medicine people were so butthurt about it.
00:43:25.060 Absolutely.
00:43:25.800 Oh, I have to sell medicine if I say I'm selling medicine.
00:43:29.100 Medicine shows sort of continue on a smaller scale into the 40s and 50s, and the last major
00:43:36.700 medicine show shuts down in the early 1960s.
00:43:40.700 Wow.
00:43:41.180 Wow. So like our parents might have been going to medicine shows.
00:43:44.400 It feels oddly possible, like depending on the part of the country that you're in.
00:43:48.220 Yeah.
00:43:48.520 It's like really fascinating to me that this persisted for so long. That surprised the hell
00:43:53.260 out of me.
00:43:53.900 I mean, people are desperate for medical treatments. The medical system now is a lot
00:43:58.480 better than it was in the 1840s, but like it still has holes.
00:44:01.320 Absolutely.
00:44:01.640 And I feel like whenever you have holes in these systems, like they're going to get filled by
00:44:05.360 something and usually that something is charlatano i'm making finger gesturing
00:44:12.260 gestures right now extremely authentic so there you go that's snake oil i can't believe it works
00:44:19.720 it worked we should stop saying it didn't probably when we talk about snake oil salesmen 0.73
00:44:25.380 what we're really talking about is like racist white people who ran medicine shows and profiteered 0.97
00:44:29.900 off of like indigenous people and yeah wore black and brown face and gave your kids heroin 0.92
00:44:35.380 and then chinese people are like we're gonna use this actually effective medication and we're like 0.98
00:44:42.320 we'll call it a fucking scam that's gonna become the synonym for the con artist the thing that 0.99
00:44:47.960 worked that chinese people did yeah your thing that worked is garbage and our thing that's 1.00
00:44:52.500 garbage really works it's fully like the jedi mind trick what are your what are your closing 0.89
00:44:59.400 thoughts on what this means for now what should we what should we learn from this the thing that 0.94
00:45:03.520 i'm stricken by is like how this simultaneously feels like a distant memory of a you know sort
00:45:08.880 of long gone past but also that like all of these tactics are still in play now extremely in play 0.97
00:45:16.440 yeah this is the playbook for selling garbage health shit that doesn't work right so like that 0.88
00:45:23.380 was the thing that was really fascinating to me i thought this was just going to be like a fun 0.98
00:45:26.580 wacky story about how things used to be. Like, it is fun and wacky at times. It's also really
00:45:31.240 sobering and is a reminder of, you know, all the things that are still pretty broken now.
00:45:37.560 There's also a lesson here about that when you regulate things, when you crack down on scams
00:45:41.780 like this, you have to keep doing it constantly. Like, you have to keep iterating on these
00:45:47.280 regulations to make sure that they're working. A lot of these laws are, like, really not fit
00:45:50.960 for purpose anymore. And you have to keep going back to these older laws and be like, well,
00:45:56.580 are there fewer fake medications on the market now than there used to be? Like,
00:46:01.800 are there cracks that they're falling into and loopholes that they're exploiting?
00:46:05.980 Well, and as we learned in the Fen Fen episode, right, those cracks emerge. And then sometimes
00:46:11.360 it's just we don't close the loopholes, right? Sometimes it's we don't fill in the cracks. But
00:46:15.560 also sometimes the institutions that we set up to regulate those cracks and loopholes
00:46:20.640 adapt to reinforce the cracks and loopholes, right? Like, yeah, during the Fen Fen episode,
00:46:26.260 we found out that like the FDA considers big pharma to be its customers, and they ought to
00:46:31.900 provide it with customer service. That is not what the FDA was founded to do. But it has sort of
00:46:37.960 moved in that direction over time, right? It would be great to be like, we passed a law and that
00:46:43.840 fixed it. And sometimes that happens. But for the most part, it takes like a level of vigilance and
00:46:48.460 sort of constant evaluation and constant sort of rethinking of, was this the approach? Did it do
00:46:54.860 what we meant it to do and there's also there's a vast abyss of desperation for miracle cures like
00:47:02.080 there is in every human society and across history and there will always be that desperation and there
00:47:07.420 will always be somebody that will sell you something to feed that desperation yeah and so
00:47:11.960 in that context you just need to have a lot of vigilance and a lot of surveillance about like
00:47:16.840 what is going on out there because the human body ages and it hurts and it aches and it does things
00:47:22.320 that make no sense. And somebody is going to pop up and say, I can make this make sense. I can fix
00:47:29.100 you. And so we just need to be extremely careful with this kind of regulation and make sure that
00:47:35.380 it's actually doing what is in the spirit of the law rather than just the letter of the law.
00:47:40.200 And that like, in the absence of that kind of like constantly updated regulation and regulatory
00:47:46.700 structures, we sort of end up where we are now, which is that the onus is on the consumer to
00:47:51.820 figure out what's real and what's fake which is not tenable and most of us don't do that because
00:47:56.380 most of us can't spend four days reading about snake oil you know like i don't want to have to 0.94
00:48:01.860 do all this work myself i don't have to i don't want to learn about like yellow five and like
00:48:07.800 blue 42 or whatever they are and like find out whether they're poisons or not like i don't want
00:48:12.880 to do that work i just want to be able to pull stuff off of shelves and be confident that it's
00:48:16.720 not gonna be heroin that i'm feeding my children every night you want to know that you're not
00:48:20.560 giving your kids heroin yeah keep dreaming bud
00:48:50.560 Thank you.